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67921 No. 67921 ID: d25f44

It has finally happened; the old discussion thread has become error. I intended to make a new thread when the current chapter ended, but the whim of code has forced my hand.

Previous thread:
>>8407
>>62615

May its massive postcount light the mightiest pyre.
Expand all images
>>
No. 67923 ID: a31717

I would like to christen the new dis thread by saying J, you're a jerk for throwing an actual problem at us when we're distracted by shiny upgrades. It's like if you were attacked in an rpg while in a menu screen. :V
>>
No. 67924 ID: d25f44

Oh, and if you posted in the old thread recently, maybe try posting again here. The visibility of the last few posts in the old thread is... uncertain.
>>
No. 67925 ID: f2c20c

>>67923
Not just a menu screen. A level up point application screen.
>>
No. 67926 ID: 3dd384

>>67923
To be fair: we were given plenty of warning. We heard once before and once after that Dullahoney's handshake might be carrying some nasty germs, and we never thought to check our Inner World for that. Or even for some manifestation of our oath!

It's a sticky situation, but one that - to a certain extent - we brought upon ourselves.
>>
No. 67928 ID: d25f44

>>67923

Ha ha. Well... is it an actual problem? You're the ones who started causing a ruckus.
>>
No. 67929 ID: 4a328b

>>67928
oh you. just put a tentacle on wordblood too so no one knows that something's up and we can get on with our purchases like nothing happened
>>
No. 67931 ID: 3dd384

>>67928
>insinuating that it really is all in Wordblood's head

>Saulanna feels... did she imagine it?... the brush of something smooth and slick and long, slithering up over her back and around her neck, gone before she can be sure it was there.
>>
No. 67932 ID: a31717

>>67931
He's not necessarily insinuating it's all in Wordblood's head. He could be saying it's only a problem if we chose to make it a problem.
>>
No. 67934 ID: 3dd384

>>67932
We are talking about carpetbaggers in our soul hierarchy, who refuse to identify themselves and seem to be magically influencing the Queen Soul.

That there's a major threat to our/Saulanna's stated short-term goal of "retain independence", in no small part because that first paragraph is basically all we know about it.

The more I think about it, the less problem I have with the Dragon's Shadow in principle - "trickster god who rebels compulsively" is a fair sight better than the Ebon Dragon of the canonical Second Age. Certainly Saulanna herself has a neutral outlook on the guy ever since that chat with Akatrina. But the current situation is simply an enormous risk, with enormous unknowns, and one I feel like we need to resolve to some extent before returning to normal time (even if the resolution is "based on what we've learned there's no danger", or even "this is something we+Wordblood can't resolve right now, let's keep our eyes open and keep brainstorming possible ways to make progress on it").
>>
No. 67936 ID: 5da860

>>67932
But this is clearly a nefarious SPY out to SAP our SENTRIES :V
Seriously though, if Greeneyes is going through such lengths to hide he more likely than not intends on making some problems on his own terms at some later point.
>>
No. 67938 ID: 3dd384

>>/quest/495935
So here's the other thing.

The interloper isn't just watching. It's attached to our soul hierarchy somehow. I mean, presumably. Assuming the green option on the TW menu was from this source and there aren't two mysterious forces in Saulanna's head right now. If it was just hanging around here, why would she know she could buy Charms for it, and why would it feel like she was buying Charms for herself?

Huh. That's actually a good point. Maybe this thing was a spy, but the birth of a proper soul hierarchy at the end of Ch.2 pulled it in, in the same way that it pulled in our Hero Soul.

In that case, it's most important to make it understand that, if it really is one of Saulanna's devas...
1) we're not going to be hostile as long as its loyalties are in the right place, and
2) cloaking yourself from your Queen is gauche.
>>
No. 67942 ID: 5da860

>>67938
On the other hand, there is precedent for titans teaching others their powers. Wordblood says earlier that "[Akatrina's] caste also has the ability, given particular effort, to learn the magical abilities of other beings, including gods and Titanic devas, if she has a tutor. A tutor such as, for example, any of the innumerable offspring of the Dragon's Shadow himself." Greeneyes could be using some similar teaching method while using his mind tricks to hide that it is him doing the teaching.

On the other other hand, anonymously giving us deception power would be strange for a spy to do, unless he has some control over the power that we invest in (which he might if it works like the power we invest in the devas)...
>>
No. 67943 ID: 3dd384

>>67942
It's possible.

But there's also evidence the interloper can perceive our suggestions. Otherwise, how did it know to block us from telling Saulanna/Moonshard/Kairosa about its presence?

It's circumstantial evidence, but from where I'm sitting the circumstantial evidence is starting to pile up. Enough to try to make an overture directly. We'll see how that goes.
>>
No. 67944 ID: 5da860

>>67943
I am not sure if Greeneyes was hearing us as much as it was hearing Saulana's and Kai's reactions to us. Still, it is worth testing and we won't loose anything if we try talking to him and he can't hear us.
>>
No. 67945 ID: f2c20c

>>67942
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it would simply teach Saulanna Emotion Bottling, not that it's part of our Deva hierarchy. I'm SURE that we would notice THAT.

You know, if it is willing to teach Saulanna, that is evidence that it is not a hostile force.

>>67943
Since this interloper has some aspect/purpose that allows manipulation of emotions, it stands to reason that it is able to do some fine-tuned mental manipulation stuff as well. It being in constant contact with us means that it has a very intimate connection.

Oh. Oh dear, I just thought of something bad. If this interloper has a high Soul Force, they could be detected by Luna if we spoke to her. On the other hand, since it's a stealth soul, it might actually be able to hide itself better with more Soul Force?
>>
No. 67947 ID: 9f5b78

It teaching us a power that makes us immune to Will damage but very susceptible to having our emotions manipulated does not mean it isn't a hostile force. If Akatrina knew that she could play us like a fiddle.

Also, this may not apply here, but in normal Exalted advanced Yozi charms often come with the drawback of compelling you to act a certain way in relevant situations. Infernals who delve in the Ebon Dragon charm set for instance may be compelled to corrupt peoples good memories if they ever hear someone talking about them.(Memory Poison Mastery forces someone to use Golden Years Tarnished Black in such a situation or else they gain Limit)

By teaching us one of his charms, if this applies in this version of the setting and to Titans, he opens the door for us eventually become compelled to act like him in at least some fashion.
>>
No. 67948 ID: 47a120

So far the dragon shadow seems more playful then aggressive, he is just watching, he is not mindraping us. He clearly CAN but is chosing to limit himself to only messing with our ability to perceive him and even then doing it in a way that we can detect.

I don't think this is really all that big of a problem and that we shouldn't be all that aggressive towards him.
>>
No. 67952 ID: 1c7e1b

Alright, this may be too much meta-knowledge from Exalted but... When the "Titans" were killed, during their dying breath they created the Great Curse on the "Heroes" so that their heroic virtues would become corrupted, and they would create their own undoing.
Of course, I don't see how that makes sense with the Dragon's Shadow being here... Though being wrapped up around the Hero soul and everything could mean Jukashi has changed the nature of the Curse.
>>
No. 67956 ID: 3bad4c

Wordblood says: "Your endless stream of words only makes me stronger" so lets just jabber on and on and on and on and on until he gets an unexpected soul force increase. :D
>>
No. 67963 ID: cee89f

>>67952
Kairosa did mention the curse...
>>
No. 67965 ID: 370c40

Oh god like half the old discussion thread is gone
>>
No. 67966 ID: c4e057

>>67965
Yeah just splitting it up. It's been, uh, causing trouble and I didn't get around to rearchitecting the thread-templating code to properly fix it. Even from the grave it still needs to fit into memory. So split into manageable chunks instead!
>>
No. 67971 ID: a31717

>>67966
Now we have a discussion thread 1.5?

Godsdangit, that's annoying. The wiki-infobox doesn't support renaming dis threads links.

Hmm. There's also a cap of 5 disthreads before you break the infobox. Give Lunar quest is now going at a rate of 1 to 1 quest thread to disthread, it's probably the most likely quest to eventually break that. :V
>>
No. 67972 ID: 47a120

>>67971
Increasing the limit on disthreads beyond five looks to be trivial by editing http://tgchan.org/wiki/Template:Infobox
(haven't messed with it yet since it can break entire wiki on minor error)
Allowing disthreads to be named is a little more complex but also doable.
>>
No. 67973 ID: cee89f

>>67972
I find it hilarious we're worried over the minutia of discussion threads but Kairosa doesn't even have a character entry xD Heck, i don't think it has been updated since the end of chapter 1...
>>
No. 67974 ID: a12965

>>67963
She implied it, sorta. We know it's the curse because of metaknowledge, but as far as they know it's just the feeling of the titans anger and nothing more. I don't think DS being here is related to it, in any case.

>>67948
Not mindrape, but blanking out our perception isn't cool at all. On the other hand, if this presence could serve as our stealth soul that could actually be very useful. Assuming its actually a piece of DS and not a continuous part of him, we should seek to have it show itself to us and swear fealty. Or whatever.
>>
No. 67976 ID: cee89f

>>67974
> and the last breath that they used to, to...!"
>"To... damn it! Curse them! Curse them all, idiotic ungrateful little...
>and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build, again, and then again, and it can keep happening all the way down for ever and ever AND EVE-!!"

That's a bit more than 'implied' =p

Admittedly we don't know what exactly the curse is, but that one was laid down? oh yes.
>>
No. 67978 ID: a31717

>>67972
Yeah, the "break the whole wiki accidentally" is why I haven't messed with it yet. Getting it to properly display discussion 1, 1.5, 2 instead of 1, 2, 3 isn't worth the bother, yet.

>>67973
Updating descriptions is more bothersome than linking to threads, or uploading stats. Partially because you usually end up having to revise someone else's work, and partially because you have to, yanno, write something. :V

As a result, the descriptions and summaries are usually the most out of date parts of an article. (Well, except for the ones so old they predate infoboxes. Or where the "running quests" tag has been left on years after the quest died).
>>
No. 67979 ID: ce346f
File 136181706828.jpg - (56.20KB , 400x300 , RGB_illumination.jpg )
67979

I honestly think that it is the Great Curse, not the Dragon's Shadow. Queen would have gotten it from Hero, and Time would have gotten it from Queen and maybe Hero. It makes sense that only Aide is partway free of it.

Also, green tentacles, and that bottling upgrade, seem more like the no-tattoo bad end great curse thing that most Lunars are prone to.

Thirdly, we started off with Red Aide, and a Blue Hero, which have together produced a Magenta Time. It would fit the color theme if we also started with a third, Green thing. Conflicts with my first argument a little.

As for seeing it, I'd suggest that this is related to Aide's recent upgrades. Further upgrades to Aide may improve the matter. If nothing else, Aide will be in a better position to catch the effects by tracking our internal social stuff.
>>
No. 67980 ID: c6ca67

...Wait... It's not 'definite' that it's the dragon, but...I wonder if there's another source?
WordBlood is immune to this/not targeted. This might be because it's not the dragon, or perhaps, not as directly.
This could be the Curse Kairosa found earlier, and it's either using the hero soul to adapt itself to being able to mess with memories so as to remain undetected, or using a built-in function.
How long were the heros cursed? Since the fall of the titans, which means pretty much nearly through all their history. Isn't it weird that NO-ONE has done anything about this? All those heros, and NONE of them can mess with the hero soul enough to fix this?
Obviously, as a Titan, we should be resistant...But this is where things get more complex.
WordBlood is 100% Titan, or close to it. So the curse won't effect him, or if it does, it will be by association. As a result, he can see the green stuff, and it probably isn't clinging to him.
Now, I vote we let this sit. If it's Dragon, we'll probably upset the Lunars and things will go south from there. But if it is the Curse, then we probably should let this sleeping coon lie.
If being a Titan's going to make us look weird, I wonder what being an uncursed hero will do...I figure it will open Wyld powers, and possibly offer mental benefits, but if we do it, I think it's going to be like the first time WordBlood ate someone, and the results will be interesting to see. (Note: try to make sure Peregrin can witness the change.)
>>
No. 67981 ID: 370c40

There is no good reason the Curse would exclusively take the form of the Dragon's Shadow. There are what, at least a dozen other Yozi? Maybe a bunch more I dunno I never counted the number of canon Yozi. Why would it take the shape of the Dragon's Shadow and not any of the others trapped in Malfeas, or Oramus(because Oramus is trapped in himself not Malfeas)? It's pretty clearly the Dragon's Shadow or something the Dragon's Shadow did. Although the Curse could be making it worse.
>>
No. 67990 ID: 9f5b78

There's absolutely nothing that's happening that makes sense for it to be the Great Curse. Sure, Jukashi could've changed things, but when the things happening fit with the Dragon's Shadow and have no connection with what the Great Curse or Wyld Taint(Which are separate things) do? You're grasping at straws.

>>67979
No tatoo bad end has nothing to do with the Great Curse. Great Curse plays on a Hero's virtues, whether by taking them to extremes or by subverting what they represent. May make a Hero lose control in a bad way for a bit, but not linked to bad ends in Exalted. Chimera-ism is basically Lunar Shapeshifting, Primal Instinct, the Wyld, and Madness taking over and turning a Lunar into a monster.

>>67980
In cannon Exalted, because the Great Curse only took affect after the Primordial War, people tended to assume the insanity was because of the horrors of said war. After that, prominent theory was that humans just couldn't take being so damn perfect. Doesn't help that almost nothing in Exalted is capable of actually mucking with Exaltations and that they're pretty much indestructible so the Death Cries of Primordials damaging the things wasn't exactly something anyone would just come up with. One guy who had any idea about it, Lytek God of Exltations, didn't ever tell anyone either.

Again, Jukashi could've changed this stuff, but I don't think we've a single reason to think that. We haven't even seen enough of the Great Curse to, without Meta knowledge, know that it's anything other then angry feelings because of tasting the history of the Titan War.
>>
No. 67991 ID: a12965

>>67945
>You know, if it is willing to teach Saulanna, that is evidence that it is not a hostile force.
Not hostile but certainly there is a strong risk of corrupting us. At least in terms of our undermining our desired freedom. If it is here hidden as we continue to grow it will profoundly change every deva and Saulanna herself.

>>67976
Sure sure but it isn't definite, at least without them giving her precise wording as much contemplation as we have.
>>
No. 67994 ID: 5b3e4b

>>/quest/496045
True, but that could apply to any spells that the thing may be casting if it needs to continuously channel it or something.
>>
No. 67995 ID: 4a328b

What makes me think "Dragon's Shadow" or at least "titanic influence" is the fact that the eyes had little red triangles in them--y'know, the titan symbol.
>>
No. 67997 ID: 5b3e4b

>>67995
Also (correct me if i'm wrong) but the Yozis are associated with green like Sol is associated with yellow/gold and Abyssals with black, right?
>>
No. 67998 ID: beeca1

>>67997
The Yozi are the Titans themselves. Only Malfeas and his fetich soul Ligier the Green Sun are really associated with green. The others, not so much. Their Heroes are, but the Titans themselves vary.
>>
No. 67999 ID: 4a328b

>>67998
The Dragon's Shadow is the opposite of the Red Sun, right? The opposite of red is green! MYSTERY SOLVED.
>>
No. 68002 ID: d1efde

HEY! Quick question for the people here. How likely do you think it is that the interloper could be using our TW allocation suggestions (as VOICES OF THE PAST) as a means to help it derail Wordbloods attempt to tell Saulanna it is there?
>>
No. 68004 ID: beeca1

>>67999
...No. The Red Sun is the Dragon's Shadow's wife, the former Red Empress.

He's the Yellow Sun's opposite. So purple, if anything.
>>
No. 68005 ID: c6ca67

Who knows? Frankly, something else to look out for is if we end up getting eaten by Kairosa, for all we know about our form in this particular quest!
For that matter, this green stuff could be the Wyld!
GAAAHARGH!
Ok, I'm really starting to think opening up to Luna or someone else and letting them take care of us is the way to go-Creation's just too full of powerful players for us to compete as a stand alone power!
>>
No. 68007 ID: d1efde

>>68005
>For that matter, this green stuff could be the Wyld

Now that's an interesting idea. Could there actually be two problems right now? It doesn't really explain the eyes in the dark, but it might explain why Wordblood is unaffected by that influence. Both Kairose and Saulanna have a much closer association with the Hero Soul than Wordblood, Kairosa because it influenced her birth and Saulanna because it's a part of her in much the same way Wordblood is.
>>
No. 68008 ID: 47a120

>>68007
The image with the eyes in the dark, once color corrected, clearly came from a dragon shaped thing. If it is the influence of the wyld it could still be, remember that when we created K the lunar exaltation joined into the process unexpected and that the lunar exaltation was already tainted by the wild...

Or... actually we created K AFTER having the contact with akatriana and we blacked out so that means that dragon shadow was possibly present for her creation... so maybe my hypothesis on this being a shadow aspected stealth deva of Saulanna. Stealth could extend to masking people's perception.

Although I consider both above possibilities to be a long shot and the most plausible scenario is that its an avatar of the Dragon Shadow.
>>
No. 68010 ID: d1efde

>>68008
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/474224.html#495844

Actually, now that I'm examining the pics closer, I'm pretty sure that's the hero soul in the background there, tinted the same green as those faint tendrils and seemingly wrapped in them. Not saying this couldn't be because of something the DS or one of his devas caused, but it does seem as if there is a problem with the Hero Soul.
>>
No. 68011 ID: a31717

I don't even know why there's a discussion over whether TDS is the agency behind this intrusion. The eyes we saw match the only image we've seen of him.

>>/questarch/194724
>>67787

That seems pretty solid proof to me, especially in light of Kat's contact (and the feel of what she did matching the coils we see now) and that this would seem to be well within his domain.
>>
No. 68012 ID: 4eb46d

Uhm, doesn't the Great Curse only affect the virtue that defines Saulanna the most? If it does, then for the power being offered by the Curse to 'fit' with Saulanna, her most defining virtue would have to be Temperance.

Now the question is: Would you say that Saulanna's most defining virtue is, in fact, Temperance?
>>
No. 68013 ID: 47a120

>>68010
We know there is a problem with the hero soul, the great curse and as a result of said curse the hero's sound inability to adapt to the feywyld taint.

At the image you linked the green tentrils have already been shown around K And saulanna so it could still be any of the myriad theories we presented, from the dragon shadow, to his avatar, to the magic of the oath with akatrianna, to the curse, to the taint of the feywild.
>>
No. 68014 ID: 354299

>>68012
That's canon!Exalted, and therefore completely irrelevant to Lunar Quest canon.
>>
No. 68017 ID: 5b3e4b

>>67998
Ah. I brought it up because DS was a yozi, is all.

>>68014
Completely? No. Largely, maybe.
>>
No. 68018 ID: 354299

>>68017
>Ah. I brought it up because DS was a yozi, is all.
>DS
...Who is not a Yozi, in current Lunar Quest canon, exemplifying why one should not bring preconceptions from canon!Exalted to Lunar Quest.
>>
No. 68022 ID: cee89f

>>68018
....

'Was'.

I said 'WAS.'

And he WAS a Yozi in this story. It is explicitly stated that DS ESCAPED from hell to take over the underworld. This is a HUGE deal to Creation.

(also, i forgot to put in my username when I posted from a school comp - sorry about that)
>>
No. 68023 ID: 520816

Hello! It's great to see that this story is still going on.

It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?

Seems like Saulanna's motivation so far has been to remain independent and not be manipulated. (Yes, Temperance as main virtue so far.) If she ever hangs out with the Lu -- uh, Moon Heroes, she could learn about a (massively hypocritical) project of theirs that's meant to help everyone become independent of Heroic meddling. Might be a worthy cause.

Also: Power Word: Panic!
>>
No. 68028 ID: 268ba5

>>68023
>to see how far Saulanna will go
Thees will be situations where the souls will be interrogated, allowed to speak on their behalf and when brought in will be read by kairosa and judged accordingly. But even in the best case scenario, I think the most we should offer is to later undo the consuming of the soul and allow it to exist in another way. Not sure what form that might take, but letting souls wander off free is probably going to remain a bad idea.

...I wonder if we can figure out other ways to utilize souls. As in, dedicating a single soul to a special power that can be undone easily, or somehow taking a majority of their TW but leaving them in some weaker form that they agreed to. I can imagine some souls wanting to forget all the evil deeds they caused, so do a partial rewind of sorts?
>>
No. 68029 ID: 76b151

Honestly? Those who profit off of slavery are just as bad as those who capture the slaves. In fact they are the ones who further the cause of slavery far more then the slavers do. If there is no profit in it they wouldn't bother.
>>
No. 68034 ID: 520816

>>68029
But see the list of "slavers" from sometime earlier, and the direction it was going? Before long it'll be "a smith who made chains that were used to hold criminals, some of whom were escaped slaves", or "some guy who sold sandwiches to slavers and therefore profited off slavery". Given the way that souls work in this setting, my own view is that eating the ghosts is no worse than killing them. So it becomes a question of who Saulanna's willing to kill, and whether she's imposing "justice" as an excuse to feed, but not "is Saulanna willing to do some uniquely evil, worse-than-murder deed"? Because it's not. Especially with the possibility now of undoing the "eating" later or maybe even imposing her own form of soul-cleansing, tasty reincarnation.

One thing I haven't seen anyone pick up on, yet, is the mention of the Dragon's "other Heroes". In canon those would be the Infernals. Depending on the writer, they're either irredeemable monsters, or people who've figured out how to do what Saulanna's working towards, and venting Limit by acting like James Bond villains. Suppose *they* have something to do with the current problem?
>>
No. 68035 ID: bf54a8

the reason kaan didn't catch all the slavers was he couldn't figure out who was a slaver. we don't need to just run up and eat everyone kai says is associated.
>>
No. 68036 ID: 9db85e

Remember, a big reason the new souls have been getting less and less horrible was merely for saulana's benefit, so that they'd make her less queasy and scarrified.

The people who have been eaten were all people who would have been imprisoned for eternity anyways.
>>
No. 68042 ID: f2c20c

>>68034
Dude, the Slippery Slope argument is lame as hell.

Intent is the issue here. We would want to go after people who knowingly profited off of selling souls to get turned into soulsteel. Heck, Peregrin can tell us exactly which crimes are appropriate to sentence them to death. We eat those who deserve death, and the rest can be put in... prison?
>>
No. 68047 ID: 47a120

>>68023
>It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?
No, in fact I noticed that we have managed to establish a baseline of personality to that point where K immediately and automatically dismissed those who were only tangentially involved without user input based on our previous debates and decisions.
>>
No. 68054 ID: 370c40

>>68034
I don't see any evidence that any of those guys aren't terrible. Until we get Kairosa to taste them I don't think we have enough information on these guys to say anything like that.

Like maybe the merchant's assistant isn't terrible, or something like that, but we won't know that until we actually investigate.
>>
No. 68055 ID: cee89f

>>68042
It's also a real thing and what many were condemning the bounty hunter for falling into. Just because you don't like the argument doesn't mean it shouldn't be maWAIT A SECOND! WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING OUR NEXT MEAL WHEN WE'VE GOT SOMETHING IN OUR HEADS THAT'S MANIPULATING SAULANNA AND KAIROSA?!
>>
No. 68056 ID: 370c40

>>68055
Because I already made my post in the thread. And I'm bored. And I don't feel like there is a whole lot else to say about that situation any more, other than that it doesn't seem very likely that the Great Curse is any more than tangentially involved.
>>
No. 68062 ID: a12965

>>68047
Even so, at least that soul that was an assistant to the slave merchant may not be as bad as her boss. We'll just have to see, won't we?

>>68055
Multitasking!
>>
No. 68071 ID: 47a120

>>68055
Yes the slippery slope is real, but mostly because people don't change overnight from one extreme to the next not because taking a single step towards the middle guarantees you will go all the way to the other extreme.
Changing to something more reasonable is not at ALL an indication of eventually becoming a well intentioned monster.
And its more of a slippery peak because people tend to fortify themselves into one extreme or the next, especially if they are intentionally avoiding one slope by going down another opposite slope. In avoiding slipping into the right you are slipping into the left (or vice versa).
Its better to think and climb towards the peak which is somewhere in the middle.

Also this analogy is misapplying it to the extreme. The analogy that we shouldn't go after people directly involved in feeding people into the soulsteel industry because we will end up going after those who sold them sandwitches is silly as hell and I am still not even sure if the author was even being sarcastic or not.
>>
No. 68075 ID: cee89f

>>68071
>Yes the slippery slope is real, but mostly because people don't change overnight from one extreme to the next...
Considering that we're moving much slower in time than Saulanna (This quest tends to update two, maybe three times a week... and Saulanna experiences that in about a minute. Maybe two.) and we're the ones making most of her decisions at the moment, we don't NEED it to be overnight. Heck, Saulanna /could/ end up doing it in less than a day (her time).

> not because taking a single step towards the middle guarantees you will go all the way to the other extreme.

We are talking about EATING PEOPLE. There is no middle ground there: you eat the people or you don't. We ate the soul-crafter because we didn't have much other choice - we ate the slavers because we are in very serious jeopardy with the Lunars and Abyssal.

>Changing to something more reasonable is not at ALL an indication of eventually becoming a well intentioned monster.

Last I checked "eating people is a-okay" is not a reasonable thing.

>And its more of a slippery peak because people tend to fortify themselves into one extreme or the next, especially if they are intentionally avoiding one slope by going down another opposite slope. In avoiding slipping into the right you are slipping into the left (or vice versa).

I'm an amateur writer/programmer in college, not a philosopher.

>Its better to think and climb towards the peak which is somewhere in the middle.

And in my mind that would be where we are at right now - We're not on a witch hunt for slavers, we are killing ghosts that have done wrong to survive, and as soon as Kairosa has respectable TW generation we'll rely on that instead.

What would you consider middle ground, exactly?

>Also this analogy is misapplying it to the extreme. The analogy that we shouldn't go after people directly involved in feeding people into the soulsteel industry because we will end up going after those who sold them sandwitches is silly as hell and I am still not even sure if the author was even being sarcastic or not.

Hyperbole. It's a thing. You exaggerate in order to make a point.
>>
No. 68076 ID: 9e0824

Personally, I don't even think it's all that bad to eat the souls of actually good and noble people, at this point. After all, by eating those souls, we can invest the proceeds into TW production, quickly boost ourselves to the point where we're producing lots of TW out quickly, and then use that production to spit the souls back out unharmed.
Taken that way, it's not murder at all, really... since the souls in question aren't even aware of the process, it's more like we're serving as a prison. Sure, it's not exactly just to imprison the souls of the righteous, but if it serves a good cause, and isn't too inconvenient to the souls in question (ie: we don't keep them too long), there's not much problem with it. On the other hand, we're totally justified in imprisoning slavers for arbitrary amounts of time, since they were doing the permanent enslavement thing with soulsteel. Even relatively petty criminals might well be imprisoned for a time, as convenient. I don't see the problem.
>>
No. 68080 ID: 47a120

>Eating people is always bad
We already had this discussion. What we are doing is kinder that what the lathe of reincarnation does.

In creation itself, anyone we kill (aside from the most powerful like heroes and maybe some extremely powerful mortals) will be sucked into the lathe and will have their soul scrubbed of all memory and personality and then recycled into a (single) new person.

In deathland we are not in a normal part of creation but a sort of afterlife like realm of reality, like limbo, and those ghosts that reside in it are exempt from the lathe of incarnation. This is an afterlife where there is no judgement at all and those who were horrible monsters in life can continue to pray on the innocents in the after life. When the dragon shadow took out the evil leadership (the deathlords; who were not in the deathlands themselves but the underworld) the populace of souls went from being doomed to eternal torment or working for the deathlords to end creation, to finding themselves in an unmanaged afterlife.

So the majority of souls banded together, formed a society that mirrors mortal life, put the worst on trial and then sentenced them. Minor crimes result in minor punishments. Capital crimes result in death if the criminal is weak enough to be "killed" (aka, can be pushed into the lathe and actually get reincarnated properly) or solitary confinement if too strong to kill. The slavers brought to us were soul force 7 and 8, ridiculously high (an exalted maxes out at SF10, except for terrestrial exalted which typically max out at 7 or 8)... way way too strong for execution via lathe until we came along.

We merely provide this afterlife society the ability to "kill that which is already dead" in the cases which warrant it. Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
We are not even really killing OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
2. We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.
>>
No. 68081 ID: 370c40

>>68080
They were soul force 4 and 5, and the soul force scale goes from 1 to 15, not 1 to 10. It doesn't map exactly to Essence in normal Exalted. The equivalent of Essence 5 is SF 7? I think?

Also I'm not sure the Underworld under the Dragon's Shadow is 'unmanaged' exactly. We don't really have that much information about the Underworld post-Deathlords, aside from vague things like references to 'Shades' and stuff about the Dragon's Shadow's lesser souls running around. Nothing very concrete.
>>
No. 68083 ID: 47a120

>>68081
The underworld under the dragon shadow IS managed.
I said the deathlands are unmanaged. We are in the deathlands.

The deathlords were in the underworld and ruled the underworld and deathlands. When the dragon shadow took over the underworlds the deathlands became independent.
>>
No. 68086 ID: cee89f

>We already had this discussion. What we are doing is kinder that what the lathe of reincarnation does.

A) I remember everyone dropping the discussion since it didn't relate to the situation, I don't remember anyone deciding it was better than Lethe.

B)It's okay because other stuff is meaner? To quote a friend, this argument is like saying "Hey, eating candy every day is fine. You COULD be eating deep-fried butter"

>In creation itself, anyone we kill (aside from the most powerful like heroes and maybe some extremely powerful mortals) will be sucked into the lathe and will have their soul scrubbed of all memory and personality and then recycled into a (single) new person.

I know how reincarnation works in this setting. Are we planning on murdering regular mortals that have next to no defenses against us? Like we are planning to eat these ghosts? If not, this argument is invalid.

(Yes I know we're probably going to have to kill mortals at some point - but I sincerely doubt we'd eat their souls and I doubt even more we would plan for it and hunt them down like rabid dogs)

>In deathland we are not in a normal part of creation but a sort of afterlife like realm of reality, like limbo, and those ghosts that reside in it are exempt from the lathe of incarnation. This is an afterlife where there is no judgement at all and those who were horrible monsters in life can continue to pray on the innocents in the after life. When the dragon shadow took out the evil leadership (the deathlords; who were not in the deathlands themselves but the underworld) the populace of souls went from being doomed to eternal torment or working for the deathlords to end creation, to finding themselves in an unmanaged afterlife. So the majority of souls banded together, formed a society that mirrors mortal life, put the worst on trial and then sentenced them. Minor crimes result in minor punishments. Capital crimes result in death if the criminal is weak enough to be "killed" (aka, can be pushed into the lathe and actually get reincarnated properly) or solitary confinement if too strong to kill. The slavers brought to us were soul force 7 and 8, ridiculously high (an exalted maxes out at SF10, except for terrestrial exalted which typically max out at 7 or 8)... way way too strong for execution via lathe until we came along.

One: how do you know all of this? I don't wanna say you pulled all of that out of your ass, but we've been told very little about how the underworld works and how Soulforce works for exalted. I see the limit for Terrestrials but not for regular exalted. In fact, 8-15 are only barely covered in Wordblood's explanation.
>Beyond this level, through 8 to 14, is the domain of the celestial gods, Noble and even Lordly devas, and other beings that are bound to a higher level of existence. 15 is the last level, but that is merely a representation of the level at which numbers no longer matter, such as with the Incarnae and the ruling Lord devas of the most powerful Titans."
>"7 gets you the Adamant Circle of sorcery, which is the highest. Aside Titanic beings, who are more just using their natural powers that look like spells, only Sun Heroes and their derivatives can use it. It can, like, blow up a city. It's pretty good! Heroes can't go past 7 until they've lived more than a mortal lifetime, and most of them don't, even then."

Two: the underworld is a hellhole. We have been told this from a person sworn not to lie. Remember? The Dragon's devas make life a living hell down there. That's why ghosts flee to the Shadowland we're in.

Three: We got 7 and 8 WILL. Their SF was 4 and 5
>"Aaaand... there you go! One ghost with Soul Force 4, the other with 5.

Four: Why would they be immune to Lethe cleansing at that level anyway? Peregrin said it was unlikely they'd pass on but nobody said that they wouldn't be cleansed if they did.

>We merely provide this afterlife society the ability to "kill that which is already dead" in the cases which warrant it.
No we don't, we're keeping it a secret! At least for now! And why would they let us do that even if they did?

>Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
Dude, you're seriously making a lot of conjecture here. What makes you so sure Saulanna will be doing this?... Come to think of it, can Saulanna even pull in regular people souls? I think that Osmosis thing Wordblood gave us was specifically for ghosts.

>We are not even really killing-
Dude, we're not having this discussion again. They are people, we eat their souls and remove everything that they are. They're DEAD. At the ABSOLUTE least, eating a ghost is like killing it. This has been established.

>OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
>1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
The memory-reading is not the issue... though suddenly I want to ask Saulanna if she has any memory of the two slavers' love lives. If any.

>2. We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.

Also, the soul doesn't go to a new life. It's our slave. Forever. Sure, mortal life sucks and is largely insignificant in this setting... Buuuuuuuuut we're still making it do whatever the hell we want and last I checked slavery was still bad, even in Exalted.
>>
No. 68087 ID: 9e0824

>>68080

True. Better yet, it's not permanent. Even if we (through Kairosa) were to actually eat everything, there'd be nothing stopping us/her from remaking all Creation, exactly as it was before. Of course, we'd probably make some improvements along the way, but you get the idea. We're a Titan. Reality bends to our will, and souls are the building blocks of our desires. No reason not to use them; everything else about this world is designed to.
>>
No. 68093 ID: 47a120

>>68086
>MrTT: We use the purified soul matter to birth our devas rather then letting them randomly go to a random mortal woman to birth a new mortal.
>the soul doesn't go to a new life. It's our slave. Forever. Sure, mortal life sucks and is largely insignificant in this setting... Buuuuuuuuut we're still making it do whatever the hell we want and last I checked slavery was still bad, even in Exalted.
Whoa there, what the fuck!
1. Kairosa is not Saulanna's SLAVE, she is her daughter!
2. I never said mortal life sucks, my argument is that a life is a life. So its equal whether they are reborn to a mortal woman or reborn as saulanna's children (remember there are many tiers of devas)
3. The soul's preordained reincartion is a minor guideline. There are tones of forces that are unaffected by fate and constantly reshape it. As such preordaining is flimsy... besides its not inherently more moral to follow its preordained path rather then another. And it certainly DOES get a new life. Just rather then a random mortal its new life is a specific component of saulanna's devas.
4. Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.

>Are we planning on murdering regular mortals that have next to no defenses against us? Like we are planning to eat these ghosts?
We are not planning on murdering anyone. We are planning on killing some people, maybe even people who are outclassed by us but have earned it via their actions. If we run across a mass murderer or child molester I see no reason to spare him just because he is weaker then us. S/he didn't spare their victims.
And if we do kill a mortal in creation (not where we are right now) we might as well take care of their souls ourselves.

>we've been told very little about how the underworld works and how Soulforce works for exalted. I see the limit for Terrestrials but not for regular exalted. In fact, 8-15 are only barely covered in Wordblood's explanation.
We have been told quite a bit, I did however accidentally insert some info from jukashi's other work (keychain of creation).

>Two: the underworld is a hellhole.
I have no idea why you think this is at all relevant to anything we are discussing.

>Three: We got 7 and 8 WILL. Their SF was 4 and 5
Oops. I made an error there.

>Four: Why would they be immune to Lethe cleansing at that level anyway?
Not immune to the cleansing but immune to being drawn into the lathe in the first place. Their SF is too high for the lathe to pull them in, that's how ghosts form normally in creation. The captain of the guard for example was powerful enough that he would have been a ghost regardless. Gavin was not so had he died in creation instead of the the deadlands he would have been drawn into the lathe.

>No we don't, we're keeping it a secret! At least for now! And why would they let us do that even if they did?
Keeping a service we provide a secret doesn't mean we aren't providing it.
They would let us because we only do it to those whose crimes warrant final death by their own laws and because we have effectively become queen of this region (by making paragrin our vassal and this is his lands)

>Or if done in creation it would be to intercept the soul of someone killed from going to the lathe and taking care of their reincarnation personally.
>What makes you so sure Saulanna will be doing this?... Come to think of it, can Saulanna even pull in regular people souls? I think that Osmosis thing Wordblood gave us was specifically for ghosts.
She would do it because that is basically what the majority agreed on when we last had this debate in questdis. But hey, its possible people would vote not to.
And of course she can intercept a soul which isn't a ghost yet as she kills their body, she is a titan.

>Dude, we're not having this discussion again. They are people, we eat their souls and remove everything that they are. They're DEAD. At the ABSOLUTE least, eating a ghost is like killing it. This has been established.
So your views are established and are verboten to debate, but anything you disagree with is never established even when there is an overwhelming majority for it? got it.
Also I am not trying to dehumanize them, accurately using the term reincarnation rather then killing does not mean that I think its perfectly moral to do to anyone by force no matter what, in fact its been a critical part of my argument that reincarnation as set up is cruel.

>MrTT: OR eating them we are putting them to a process near identical to reincarnation. The differences are that:
>MrTT: 1. We are not erasing all their memories but claim some of them; and plan to store the rest at some point (in a book, not in our own minds so we don't go crazy).
>The memory-reading is not the issue... though suddenly I want to ask Saulanna if she has any memory of the two slavers' love lives. If any.
Not reading, PRESERVING. Reincarnation destroys all the memories, we don't. This is actually the major point... reusing the TW itself is irrelevent, your own argument for the sanctity of life hinges on the importance of their memories and personality. The lathe purges all of that and recycles the TW into a new blank slate soul.
And we seperated skills from memories so we shouldn't have their lovelife.
>>
No. 68094 ID: 9f5b78

I know this doesn't really matter, but it's bugging the hell out of me. The word is Lethe. Not Lathe, but Lethe.
>>
No. 68095 ID: 47a120

>>68094
Hail fellow Grammar Paladin.
I appreciate being corrected when wrong. I will properly call it Lethe from now on.
>>
No. 68098 ID: 9f5b78

Oh, and something I figured I'd mention. In normal Exalted, Lethe is something a Ghost can enter at any time they want except for in two circumstances. If they've previously chosen for someone to be their master they need their permission. This is a choice though. The second is unless they're bound in Soulsteel. To enslave a ghost requires either their consent or Soulsteel.

So given that anyone who made slave chains for ghosts was making Soulsteel chains... Well, they may not be the most innocent example to give.

Jukashi may very well have changed this, but it's something interesting I thought I'd share.
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No. 68100 ID: cee89f

>>68090
>We are not planning on murdering anyone. We are planning on killing some people, maybe even people who are outclassed by us but have earned it via their actions.
I love how you contradict yourself in the same sentence there.

>If we run across a mass murderer or child molester I see no reason to spare him just because he is weaker then us. S/he didn't spare their victims.

A mass murderer is still a human being who, at the absolute least, deserves to have their crimes proven. I sincerely doubt any mass murderer mortal is going to be strong enough to prevent us taking them in alive. Also pretty much everybody in Creation with more than mortal power has probably killed a lot.

Not even going to touch 'child molester'.

>And if we do kill a mortal in creation (not where we are right now) we might as well take care of their souls ourselves.

I'm not as familiar with Exalted canon as I would like but what little I DO know suggests that would be impossible because Lethe would absorb them instantly - way before we could eat them - or their souls would fall through to the underworld.

>I have no idea why you think this is at all relevant to anything we are discussing.

Neither do I, but you're the one who brought it up. You said that the underworld was functioning like a normal society. Which it is not. Normal societies don't have dragon demons torturing for fun. ( Normal societies have Fae torturing for fun ( =p ) )

>Their SF is too high for the lathe to pull them in, that's how ghosts form normally in creation. The captain of the guard for example was powerful enough that he would have been a ghost regardless. Gavin was not so had he died in creation instead of the the deadlands he would have been drawn into the lathe.

... Okay, one, aren't you one of the guys who keeps saying not to rely on exalted canon? Two... why on earth would Lethe work like that? Isn't the whole point of the underworld to hold on to old business, and then later to 'pass on' by finishing up aforementioned old business?

>Keeping a service we provide a secret doesn't mean we aren't providing it.

... *grumble*

>They would let us because we only do it to those whose crimes warrant final death by their own laws and because we have effectively become queen of this region (by making paragrin our vassal and this is his lands)

The fact that a soulsteel craftsman's sentence (one of the most vile of all ghost-kind) was to be put in a crystal suggests that there is no 'final death' penalty in this society... possibly because they can't do it.

>She would do it because that is basically what the majority agreed on when we last had this debate in questdis. But hey, its possible people would vote not to.
I'm gonna assume this was a debate in Ch.1 and move on.

>And of course she can intercept a soul which isn't a ghost yet as she kills their body, she is a titan.

And titans much, much more powerful than her designed Lethe. It's pull could easily be stronger than ours.

>So your views are established are verboten to debate, but anything you disagree with is never established even when there is an overwhelming majority for it? got it.
I don't remember there being an overwhelming majority for the one you brought up, but I DO remember there being one for the one I did, is the thing >.>

...Then again, my memory is atrocious, so if that ISN'T the case, I apologize for my hypocrisy.

>Not reading, PRESERVING. Reincarnation destroys all the memories, we don't. This is actually the major point... reusing the TW itself is irrelevent, your own argument for the sanctity of life hinges on the importance of their memories and personality. The lathe purges all of that and recycles the TW into a new blank slate soul.

And YOURS hinges on there being a difference between Lethe and our absorption, and there really isn't for the individual person. In either case, the soul permanently loses all identity. The way we use the energy afterward differs but at that point the person is already dead.

Bringing the person back renders this argument (mostly) moot, but then that raises the question of imprisonment, when we release the souls, etc etc that has little to do with the current discussion

>And we seperated skills from memories so we shouldn't have their lovelife.

You just finished saying that we have some of their memories.

>Whoa there, what the fuck!
I've seen slasher villain reveals start this way. :P

>1. Kairosa is not Saulanna's SLAVE, she is her daughter!

WHOA WHOA WHOA!! TIME OUT!!! I said SOUL, not DEVA! Kairosa isn't the soulsteel forger given new life, she's Kairosa, forged from Titan's Will (which wordblood previously described as the tool, not the material) as her own person! Dear god, implying that I think Kairosa is our slave?! Where the hell did you get that idea?!?!

... Though if you want to get technical about it she can'tNO I DON'T WANT TO GET TECHNICAL ABOUT IT! DAUGHTER, NOT SLAVE!!

>2. I never said mortal life sucks, my argument is that a life is a life. So its equal whether they are reborn to a mortal woman or reborn as saulanna's children (remember there are many tiers of devas)
>3. The soul's preordained reincartion is a minor guideline. There are tones of forces that are unaffected by fate and constantly reshape it. As such preordaining is flimsy... besides its not inherently more moral to follow its preordained path rather then another. And it certainly DOES get a new life. Just rather then a random mortal its new life is a specific component of saulanna's devas.

... Okay, I think I see the problem here. You're reacting under the assumption TW is the material we use to make Devas. This is not the case. Wordblood has said that TW is the effort used to force reality into the shape you want - the tool, not the materials. Paintbrush, not paint. (though to be fair, I only know this because I recently went back to find some stuff that happened in thread 1) If anything, Saulanna is the paint, since a piece of her soul formed Kairosa.

(also, I know you never directly said mortal life sucks, but one implication of your argument is that being a part of a titan is better than being a mortal human)

>4. Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.

...And... what does this have to do with killing and eating people?
>>
No. 68101 ID: cee89f

(For the record, MrTT, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate at this point because this discussion interests me - feel free to stop if that's not the case for you)
>>
No. 68102 ID: 9f5b78

>Isn't the whole point of the underworld to hold on to old business, and then later to 'pass on' by finishing up aforementioned old business?

That's not really how the Underworld works exactly. Lots of Ghosts want to stay Ghosts for eternity and just never really die. For some it might be a transitional period, but for others it's how they intend to spend the rest of time.

The Underworld isn't really a natural thing in Exalted, and it's hard to say it has a concrete "point" to it. Primordials who weren't supposed to die did. In trying to imagine what would happen to them, some created the Underworld and some created Oblivion. The way things were and worked weren't really their "point". With the Dragon's Shadow running the the show they may have a point now, but whether that's a good thing or matters is really an entirely different debate.
>>
No. 68103 ID: e4e2ea

Just want to point this out, but everyone in the main thread telling Saulanna to hurry up and focus on the intruder?

She ain't listening.

Everyone screamed Red Alert as soon as they noticed, but Saulanna and Kairosa went on talking about upgrades. Check, even Saulanna's thinking process is laid out and she is ignoring the advice of the posters.

The only way to get Saulanna to focus on the threat is either A. Wordblood snaps the control off of her and Kairosa, or B. she is guided along a path that has her buying protection against mental intrusion and using it.

If Wordblood runs off to fight the intruder, you know what'll happen? Saulanna and Kairosa will shrug their shoulders, go on discussing power-ups, and distribute them without Wordblood.

They're not going to listen to Wordblood's protests. Instead they're going to spend TW for that power-up, and likely leave everyone ill suited to fight off the intruder. All the while, mental control increases.

In fact....

This guy didn't show up until after the first round of upgrades. Maybe that isn't a coincidence? Maybe all the upgrades and TW spent, in a way, boost him as well? He...I dunno, feeds off the process or something? If that is the case, he might be able to stage a take-over after the next big round of buying.

Saulanna needs to either be convinced that mental defense is priority, right now, or Wordblood needs to force the issue. And at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Saulanna waves off mental defense because she doesn't think she needs it now.

So I really, really hope Wordblood forces the issue with Power Word Clarity, before the intruder has a chance to adapt.
>>
No. 68104 ID: a12965

>>68103
Maybe he didn't show up until now because these upgrades are potentially a threat to him?

Also, I find it funny that we're talking about killing people when, you know, they're already dead. I mean sure ghosts are still people, mostly, but really they had their go at living already.
>>
No. 68107 ID: 47a120

>>68103
You suggest an excellent path of action. I would change my vote to support this if you post it in main.
Although I would argue that it is FAR more likely that it was there before and raising the soul force has made it possible to detect it rather then making it more powerful.
Another action we should take aside from clarity and self awareness would be to bring peregrine in immediately.
>>
No. 68109 ID: 47a120

>>68100
Murder =! killing. Non murder killing can be self defense, accident, or as punishment to the deserving. I doubt a mortal would ever fall into self defense category but the other two can occur

>Lethe would absorb them instantly
Lethe is partially broken. We can kill via ripping soul out of body rather then destroying body. And even mortal of sufficient strength can resist the pull of the lethe so a titan should have no problem doing so.

>Underworld
I was sure I didn't, if I did I misspoke.

>point of the underworld
The underworld doesn't have a point, it was created by accident as a side effect of the death of the titans. The lethe couldn't handle them so they fell THROUGH it breaking it in the process and creating the underworld, a real which has no point whatsoever.
At least, until the dragon shadow claimed it and reshaped it in his image.

>The fact that a soulsteel craftsman's sentence (one of the most vile of all ghost-kind) was to be put in a crystal suggests that there is no 'final death' penalty in this society... possibly because they can't do it.
mmm... well I went and looked up exactly what he had to say:
>>/quest/467606

>And YOURS hinges on there being a difference between Lethe and our absorption, and there really isn't for the individual person. In either case, the soul permanently loses all identity. The way we use the energy afterward differs but at that point the person is already dead.
Fair enough. you are right there. Having saulanna process them instead of the lethe makes no difference to the individual since either way they are gone. If saulanna processes them then she can undo it and keep their memories for herself or stored somehow (say, in a book). But just because the memories are stored in books doesn't mean anything to the individual who is now gone.

My insistence on using reincarnate though is merely a grammatical technicality, they are already dead and the process we are doing is called that. It is not meant to suggest a difference in morality compared to death (either being worse or better)

>You just finished saying that we have some of their memories.

>I said SOUL, not DEVA! Kairosa isn't the soulsteel forger given new life
>... Okay, I think I see the problem here. You're reacting under the assumption TW is the material we use to make Devas. This is not the case. Wordblood has said that TW is the effort used to force reality into the shape you want - the tool, not the materials.
It is both tool and material. All of reality is made out of TW, in particular souls.
Kairosa does not have his memories, they have been stripped out first, but the TW which used to be his soul is now the TW that makes up her. And if we had forcibly reincarnated him via lethe then his TW would be cleaned of memories by the lethe and then sent to a mortal women to be born as a new human.

>MrTT: Eventually we could split a single mature soul into multiple new souls and send those for reincarnation. Something the lathe never did but a function titans perform for reality.
>...And... what does this have to do with killing and eating people?
You argued that by recycling souls ourselves rather then letting the lethe do it we are interefering with the natural cycle did you not? I am saying that the natural cycle actually involves titans as the lethe required titans to be part of the process even before it was broken.
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No. 68111 ID: f2c20c

>>68109
Dude, stop arguing with HalfTangible. He's trolling you.

Devil's Advocate is only a useful tactic when the discussion NEEDS to go on for longer than it normally would.
>>
No. 68118 ID: cee89f

>>68111
"Trolling" implies intent to anger. I have no such intent.

>>68109
>self defense, accident, or as punishment to the deserving
It isn't the first two if we plan it (which we are, in the ghost's case), and I disagree on the third.

>The underworld doesn't have a point, it was created by accident as a side effect of the death of the titans. The lethe couldn't handle them so they fell THROUGH it breaking it in the process and creating the underworld, a real which has no point whatsoever.

Within the world's setting, yeah, but i mean in the context of a game world. IE, what does it DO in the setting. In this case: get people to hold on to old business and stay as ghosts.

>At least, until the dragon shadow claimed it and reshaped it in his image.

I bet the land itself trolls you. "Tripped over a root? U MaD?"

>My insistence on using reincarnate though is merely a grammatical technicality, they are already dead and the process we are doing is called that. It is not meant to suggest a difference in morality compared to death (either being worse or better)

I disagree. They're still around and kicking, might as well be alive. I find it strange that it's easy to think of Gevin as a living person but not any other ghost.

>It is both tool and material. All of reality is made out of TW, in particular souls.

No, reality is made out of Aether. Wordblood and Kairosa refer to it as the "clay with which titans make their great works". And here's a quote from wordblood in Thread #1:
>"Titan's Will is not exactly a resource in that way; rather than being a substance to be molded, it is closer to being the effort required to hold something into a particular shape.

So no, not a resource.

>Kairosa does not have his memories, they have been stripped out first, but the TW which used to be his soul is now the TW that makes up her. And if we had forcibly reincarnated him via lethe then his TW would be cleaned of memories by the lethe and then sent to a mortal women to be born as a new human.

See above: TW is not a resource, it's a tool.

>You argued that by recycling souls ourselves rather then letting the lethe do it we are interefering with the natural cycle did you not?

Uh... no. I do not give two shits about the natural order. Us eating a few souls is not going to break Lethe (i doubt Lethe will even notice or care) The soul is grafted onto our forms and a part of us, and it serves us as mindlessly and obediently as the cells in your arm. My point is that, as much as sending it to a mortal life would suck in this setting, being mindless, spirit bone-marrow is decidedly /worse/.

>>68103
Some are suggesting either self-awareness, for Wordblood to act on his own initiative, or other various things.

I'm just hoping Wordblood still CAN spend TW and that Kairosa doesn't have sole responsibility. Cuz then we're pretty much screwed.

I'd like to add one other thing though: Wordblood, think about the danger here as much as you can. That will broadcast on your scales, and maaaaaybe they'll see it while you're making and using Clarity... but if not, they'll get the message the moment clarity takes effect.
>>
No. 68134 ID: e4e2ea

>>68107

Actually, I did post my suggested course of action. Or close enough, I believe. Can't remember how to link to posts in another thread, but they're there. Two of them.

Or is this not explicit enough? I don't want to clutter up the main thread with more posts, but I suppose I could post again with a more concise plan of action.
>>
No. 68138 ID: 47a120

>>68134
You can delete an old post and then post the clarification.
Your post here in questdis is much better I think.
Also, to cross link you use
>>/quest/#
>>/questdis/#
>>/questarch/#
etc... where # is post number
>>
No. 68163 ID: 47a120

>MrTT: First thing you should do before buying ANYTHING is bringing peregrin inside here, he could help.
>MrTT: Then you should buy ONLY self awareness and PW: Clarity and use both of them; save the rest of the TW till after you see how this play out. Be insistent.
>>/quest/496531
>that means not buying anything during the internal phase

Am I missing something here? I understand time starts moving again (albeit still slowly) when we bring in peregrin but... so what?
>>
No. 68164 ID: 9e0824

>>68163
It has been explicitly mentioned that once we talk to Peregrin, the phase will end. We'll have outside plot to deal with, and will be too busy to do more internal stuffs. We need to have our house in order before then, or the things we haven't attended to will be hanging around throughout the scenes to come, biting us in the ass.
>>
No. 68165 ID: a12965

>>68163
>>68164
The endless internal time will end, probably because bringing in Peregrin means having to resume time. We probably can't extend the time speeding up to him yet. But that doesn't mean we can't do the upgrades - it MIGHT but not necessarily. We simply won't have time to muck about anymore and just have to do it quickly.

But in any case, I think we can resolve this without him.
>>
No. 68169 ID: cee89f

>We probably can't extend the time speeding up to him yet.

Kairosa has said that we can selectively manipulate our internal time, so we can probably bring Peregrin in and keep our time stopped.

Buuuut in order to do that, we'd have to resume time outside to talk to him about it, so the unlimited time still ends, i guess.
>>
No. 68176 ID: 47a120

I understand that the unlimited internal time phase will end I am just asking why it MATTERS that it ends?
Having him assist us with an attack would be far more valuable then saving a bit of time.

And what does it matter if we don't spend all the TW right away? It is near instant to spend TW anyways.
>>
No. 68178 ID: f2c20c

>>68176
It's not the internal frozen time ending that's the problem. It's that the internal phase will be over altogether.

We won't be able to deal with things that need to be dealt with in the internal world!
>>
No. 68180 ID: 47a120

>>68178
what things? the only things remaining are:
1. This new threat.
2. Assigning TW which we can do in regular phase instantly anyways.

We already finished everything else.
>>
No. 68182 ID: 76b151

you're forgetting about communing with our hero soul.
>>
No. 68185 ID: cee89f

>>68182
Do we need to be in our inner world for that? Or, if you wanna be meta, do we need to be guaranteed a lack of interruption? And if we do, is the chance that Peregrin can help us in here high enough to risk waiting on the communion? I think so.
>>
No. 68186 ID: 76b151

The way it was said when we were warned that exiting the internal world would end this segment said to me that internal world stuff like the intruder and the hero soul would have to wait until later. I don't think we can take that chance with it actively influeincing Saulanna and Kairosa and our Hero Soul. We need it gone now. Not later. Especially if we're thinking of communing with the Hero Soul and its under this things influence.
>>
No. 68188 ID: d6ef5d

>>68185
We don't need a time stop to commune, no. But as it might be a slow process, it's sure as hell convenient.
>>
No. 68190 ID: cee89f

>>68188
Maybe, but while we're communing, Green-Four-Eyes-in-the-dark can do whatever he wants. Whatever is in our head is capable of wiping Kairosa and Saulanna's memories. Any advantage we can gain is one we /need/, and as soon as possible.

In the outside world, no one can really get to us even if time speeds back up - we're deep underground, Askalaff doesn't wanna try his own teleporting ability in a Shadow(y?)land, and the Death Hero teleport power is drowned out by our soul fire.
>>
No. 68191 ID: 47a120

>>68190
Pretty much all that.

>>68182
The purpose of communing with hero soul is to spend TW to gain self awareness.
At most this argument would change the order to:
1. Buy self awareness (via communing with hero soul)
2. Bring in peregrin
3. Buy PW: cleanse and cast it

Rather then my original suggestion of doing 2,1,3.
>>
No. 68197 ID: f2c20c

We still haven't checked out the tent! We should not stop the internal phase without doing that first.
>>
No. 68198 ID: 47a120

So given a choice between checking the tent right now rather then having peregrin help us fight mind control you choose checking the tent?
>>
No. 68200 ID: f2c20c

>>68198
Yes.

Why do you think Peregrin would be of any use here, exactly? Why would he be immune to the memory scrubbing, hmm? Or be able to do anything at all against the Deva?

I'd like to note that by this point the Deva inside Saulanna's head knows that it can't hide the traces of it having been there. It's already been discovered, so all it can do is prevent any action from being taken against it until it can get out again. That's what it's doing right now- keeping Saulanna and Kairosa oblivious even though Wordblood knows it's there and is trying to warn them.

It's acting defensively, and is the only action it's taken since it entered aside from subtly offering to teach Saulanna emotion-bottling. The more I think about it, after the initial shock of being spied upon wore off, the more I believe that this deva is not an enemy. It's not out to get us. Can you honestly think of a reason for it to be?

It's in the Dragon's Shadow's best interest to have Saulanna as an ally. Keep that in mind.
>>
No. 68202 ID: 47a120

>>68200
1. I personally argued that its probably not an enemy but a spy who leaves the occasional gift. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to catch it, just that we shouldn't destroy it.
2. Peregrin can likely help because he is an experienced exalted. Exalted are built to resist titanic mind manip. Even if he has no specific tricks for it he would be another highly resilient target for this intrusion to split its attention between.
>>
No. 68204 ID: d1efde

>>68202
If we release the time lock this spy may be able to escape. The release of the time lock could be the ultimate goal behind this entity forcing Saulanna and Kairosa to finalize the distribution of TW.
>>
No. 68205 ID: c6319f

A spy is an enemy. Maybe it doesn't cause direct harm, but whoever or whatever it is passing information could more easily be able to due to its actions. We do not know its purpose in our realm, but we do know we did not intend to let it in. The most reasonable course of action is to hunt it down aggressively and determine whether it is a true threat, then destroy it if it is.

If it is a servant of the Dragon's Shadow, pulling in Peregrin, who has admitted to being bound by at least some oaths to the Dragon's Shadow, I think, would be a poor decision to make.

There is also the broader issue of whether we invite him in here in the first place, ever, which is not something I have seen a consensus on.
>>
No. 68207 ID: cee89f

>>68204
You say that almost like the spy getting out of us is a /bad/ thing. What do you think we're gonna try and do when we find it, have a tea party?!

...

Though dmittedly that'd be kind of hilarious and put it off-balance.

>>68205
>If it is a servant of the Dragon's Shadow, pulling in Peregrin, who has admitted to being bound by at least some oaths to the Dragon's Shadow, I think, would be a poor decision to make.

He's also bound as our vassal by true name oath, and has shown himself to be largely independent from the Dragon's Shadow.

>>68202
Spies ARE enemies.

>>68200
If we could guarantee that, the argument that it's not a threat and we should keep it would have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, we can't. So we can't just leave it be and hope it's on our side. At the absolute least, we need to find and catch it. We're in too vulnerable a position to do otherwise.
>>
No. 68208 ID: 3bad4c

> bound as our vassal by true name oath
That doesn't properly take effect until both ends of the bargain are upheld. Currently they are not.
>>
No. 68210 ID: 47a120

1. Its now just a spy, its a spy bearing gifts... like santa claus.
2. The Ebon shadow transformed into shadow dragon to escape being bound by a true name oath.
3. If it is a deva (most likely) of the dragon shadow then its one of his children. He would be upset if we killed it, he will be furious if we BOUND IT IN SLAVERY.
4. The fact we have bound kaan is probably a black mark for us as far as he is goes.
5. Capturing the spy and then letting it go for some good faith and maybe concessions would be more useful then just letting it escape on its own terms.
>>
No. 68215 ID: 16e17c

>>68210
1. Do we know this gift is benign? How does it work? Would WE control when the emotions come out, or the Deva? Could the Deva leave it on indefinitely, making us a cold calculating beast of machine logic? Why would we trust something made by the setting's greatest manipulator and biggest prick?
2. Peregrin is significantly weaker and less smart than the Ebon Dragon.
3. Personally I'm voting we kick it out. Not even enslave, just force out of us.
4. That particular point was to advocate why Peregrin would be trustworthy, or at least enough to bring him in.
5. True but the important thing is that it gets out.

... Wait. who are you talking to?

>>68208
... Good point.
>>
No. 68217 ID: 9f5b78

I'd like to remind that Peregrin chose to be bound by a True Name Oath, and even offered to make the oath one of servitude where the initial suggestion was to make sure he couldn't harm, deceive, work against us, and maybe answer some questions.
>>
No. 68219 ID: 16e17c

>>68217
And he was unable to answer our questions because of his oaths to the Dragon's Shadow - what he wants may not factor in.
>>
No. 68220 ID: 9f5b78

>>68219
My point is more that he isn't enslaved as much as bound to an oath that he suggested be one of servitude in exchange for magic.
>>
No. 68233 ID: 5d121c

The recent chaos in the suggestions thread is pretty dumb. Which is perfect. Simulates a rising freakout for Saulanna perfectly.
>>
No. 68236 ID: f2c20c

>>68220
Yes. Enslavement implies we are giving him nothing in return.

He's a servant. He's being paid for his time.
>>
No. 68237 ID: cee89f

>>68220
>>68236
... I think i missed something, when did anyone imply Peregrin was our slave?
>>
No. 68239 ID: 47a120

>>68215
2. I wasn't referring to peregrin I was referring to forcing an oath out of the intruder.

>>68208
While this is true, I am coming to trust peregrine. I believe he was not lying about his true purpose and intent and he has a lot to lose from turning on us anyways. So yes he COULD turn on us but he seemed genuine on his intention and on the deal we struck.
Also, if he does turn on us using that technicality we just have to shout some knowledge at him.
>>
No. 68240 ID: cee89f

>>68239

Again,
>>68219
>what he wants may not factor in.
>>
No. 68242 ID: 47a120

Oh, I see. Conflicting oaths, yea that is a problem.
>>
No. 68245 ID: 9f5b78

>>68237
It came up at some point regarding it pissing off The Dragon's Shadow. Feeling a bit too lazy to look for it right now. Felt it important enough to clarify somewhere though.
>>
No. 68253 ID: f2c20c

>>68208
My understanding is that the oath keeps hold until he believes that his end of the bargain will not be fulfilled. Thus, Wordblood figuring out how to teach him like we promised.

Which he has.
>>
No. 68256 ID: 95868e

>"I will teach you a fair portion of my titanic power. For this, you will serve me.
>You will serve faithfully, wisely, and well, as best as you can do.
>You will not deceive me, nor allow me to be deceived;
>You will not go against my will, nor what my will would be.
>Any command I give, you will obey; save that I would gain by it.
>My goals will be yours; my allies, yours; my secrets, yours.
>This is the bargain I offer you."

the only way he can go against us is if DS can break the oath somehow.
>>
No. 68259 ID: f2c20c

>>68256
...I just realized something. During the confrontation with Akatrina, Peregrin said nothing. With that oath in play... he didn't consider what Akatrina was saying to be deceptive either.
>>
No. 68262 ID: 47a120

>>68259
I am not surprised since it coincides with everything we already know. The Dragon Shadow is NOT pure evil and I have no idea why we even tried to argue as such to her.
He ended soul-steel, hunts down slavery, and saved creation. Even if the ebon dragon was evil he had to fundamentally transform into a different being to escape the true name oaths binding him in prison as a yozi.
>>
No. 68264 ID: 4224e5

I gotta wonder about the status of the Great Curse on the death heroes though... It used to be the whispers of the Neverborn and cast the world into Oblivion, but DS fixed all that so?
>>
No. 68269 ID: f922dd

>>68264
The Abyssals never suffered from the Great Curse in the first place (it was removed from their Exaltations when they became Abyssals). Being under the thumbs of the Neverborn (even renegade Abyssals were still subject to their displeasure at not spreading death and destruction) more than made up for that in terms of badness, but it wasn't the Great Curse.

The usual disclaimer of "This is Exalted canon that doesn't necessarily apply to this quest" applies. Still, the Death Heroes in this setting seem to have gone from being under the thumb of the Neverborn to being under the thumb of the Dragon's Shadow.
>>
No. 68270 ID: d6ef5d

>Kaan's situation
Remember that he primarily seems interested in the search for information and knowledge- it's what drove him to summon a demon and get killed (initially triggering his exaltation), its what drove him to create Saulanna as she is today, and its what made him chose to serve her when he found he could not control her.

I'm not sure it's been made clear whether he's more interested in the application of this information as magical/titanic power, or if he seeks to learn and understand more for understanding's sake.

>>68259
He said it himself. He's a death hero. That means he has at least some sympathy to their position.

He also could have believed we weren't actively being tricked or overpowered (that we were capable of handling it), or that it was in our own interest to hear her position. Or that his stepping in might have further upset a delicate situation (not playing to our interests or goals).

It's an oath of alliance- not absolute control. He's still left with a fair degree of freedom in his actions depending on how he perceives a situation.
>>
No. 68281 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/496794
WB gained the ability to create a mist that sustains life in our inner world as his SF3 upgrade.
And besides, he is an exalt so he wont die just from being in a fatal environment.
>>
No. 68303 ID: cee89f

>>68281
>WB gained the ability to create a mist that sustains life in our inner world as his SF3 upgrade.

What he said!

>And besides, he is an exalt so he wont die just from being in a fatal environment.

Wordblood was the one who said he wouldn't be able to survive in our inner world in the first place =p
>>
No. 68305 ID: f2c20c

On a different topic...

I think I'm getting closer to figuring out what Saulanna's Purpose/Heart's Desire is.

Look at the way she approached each situation. She found a ghost, and inspired it to work harder, then took sympathy and decided to aid him in finding his lost love and delivering the box to her, taking a dominant or leader role in the relationship.

Then she fought some mobsters and ate the leader, then directed the survivors to send false information back to their leader. Peregrin showed up, and we effectively became his boss via the Oath.

She's a LEADER of (Will/Soul/Spirit).
>>
No. 68307 ID: 76b151

So she is the Queen of Hearts?
>>
No. 68308 ID: 5c667c

>>68305

I think she's far too young to know what she wants. I'm 21 and I don't know my own Heart's Desire equivalent in real life.
>>
No. 68312 ID: cee89f

>>68308
I'm 21. My heart's desire is to become a writer.

And to be perfectly honest, Heart's Desire sounds more like a primary motivation than an end-game goal.

What little I know of exalted mechanics (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong - exalted corebooks are ludicrously hard to find here) suggests that Heart's Desire is the equivalent of Motivation. Something that motivates you. Not necessarily your end-goal, just something that's motivating you at that point in your life.
>>
No. 68314 ID: 354299

>>68312
Motivation, in Exalted Canon, is actually the end goal. Examples of (an Exalt's) Motivation would be "Destroy the Realm" or "Learn All The Spells. All Of Them." Intimacies are the things you look at to find out what motivates your character (e.g. for "Destroy the Realm", a character may also have as an Intimacy "The Realm (Vengeful Hatred)").

Of course, this is Lunar Quest as you said, so...
>>
No. 68334 ID: 5d121c

>>68312
Mortal Motivations are different than Exalted ones. A mortal might want to write a really great novel in their life. An exalt would never have something so small as their entire Motivation.
>>
No. 68337 ID: cee89f

>>68334
AFTER the perspective nigh-immortality gives you sinks in, maybe.

>>68314
Ah. Okay.
>>
No. 68338 ID: bddf2b

>>68269
Canon suggests that since the Death Heroes have had the Great Curse removed, the only thing innately ruining their lives (their "angst meter") is what the Neverborn do to them for not being horrible. So, any Death Hero who became a Sun Hero would lack the curse and potentially be one of the most sane and reasonable beings in Creation. The same would apply to Death Heroes in this setting, where the Neverborn are out of the picture. Why, Kaan could probably even love Saulanna and not make her explode with unholy energy for feeling that way! ...Unless TDS is in charge of Resonance and cares about it, which doesn't seem likely. This was the guy who reduced Infernals' angst meter for hatching crazy plans involving marriage, and this whole setting is vaguely like a sequel to the canon "Return of the Scarlet Empress" campaign which draws heavily on (twisted) positive relationships.

>> Some other post
"Yes. Enslavement implies we are giving him nothing in return.
He's a servant. He's being paid for his time."

I imagine at some point, asking Wordblood if he's okay with being mystically subservient to Saulanna. The answer is probably yes, there's probably no way to undo his bond to her, and if he doesn't like it it's kind of his own fault, but I think he'd appreciate being asked.
>>
No. 68339 ID: cee89f

>>68338
I imagine that posing the question would be a lot like asking a human "Are you okay with being being enslaved to gravity?"
>>
No. 68342 ID: beeca1

>>68339
Many humans are not, hence flight and space travel. A perfectly valid question.
>>
No. 68343 ID: d6ef5d

>Wordblood if he's okay with being mystically subservient to Saulanna.
He's already expressed his reticence to be anything but. His current purpose is our aide, and whatever he was before, he feels uncomfortable or wrong being in a position of power over her (to the point where he's reluctant to even act to dispel status ailments Saulanna might be subject to).

On the other hand, he's as good as admitted he wants power too, with his alt text message about every Lord having at least a little fantasy of being the King or Queen. Sure, he was talking about Kairosa, but it applies to him as well. Some part of him longs to be what he once was.
>>
No. 68350 ID: cee89f

>>68342
My point was that nobody really thinks of it as 'slavery'. It just is. We get pulled down because gravity is a thing: the lords obey the queen because a queen soul is a thing. Also, until I have my jetpack I do not believe humans are THAT ticked about being enslaved to gravity.
>>
No. 68351 ID: d6ef5d

>>68350
The main difference between the human-gravity situation and the Lord-King/Queen situation is no human has the option of deposing gravity and changing places with it.
>>
No. 68352 ID: 76b151

That shall be my Heart's Desire. To BECOME GRAVITY!
>>
No. 68353 ID: cee89f

>>68351
Neither do Lords, as far as we know. They CAN become Queen or King, but it's not something they can just decide.

>>68352
Saulanna, mistress of gravity! The next generation of Superher- i mean Exalted- i mean Hero!
>>
No. 68354 ID: 520816

>>68352
This is Exalted. Becoming Gravity might actually be an option! I think Creation's "physics" consists of some unshaped fae (ie. crazier versions of the Titans) lashed together by the one called She Who Lives In Her Name ("Swillin'" to her friends).
>>
No. 68355 ID: 9f5b78

>>68354
If I'm remembering correctly that's not quite true(Physics being Unshaped Fae I mean. I'm sure becoming Gravity is possible in Exalted.) In normal Exalted physics is defined by Fate. Part of the reason the Loom of Fate was made was so that the Maidens weren't spending every waking hour ensuring things weren't flying out of creation, effects weren't preceding or happening without causes, ect ect.
>>
No. 68356 ID: 76b151

lets eat Fate.
>>
No. 68358 ID: 370c40

>>68356
Let's eat samsara. Even better.
>>
No. 68359 ID: 5d121c

>>68337
No, it's not after the perspective shift. People with small motivations don't exalt.
>>
No. 68361 ID: 47a120

>>68343
Are you sure wordblood is reluctant to act independently to free saulanna from mind control?
This seems like a horribly silly train of thought which we could and should logic through.

Being given a direct order to not free someone who you swore to obey for example... the order is not from THEM, the real order from them is/would be to free their mind. The order to not free them is from the interloper affecting their mind. It is the easiest zeroeth law rebellion to justify but maybe we should write a solid coherent logical justification such as that and post it in the threat.
>>
No. 68363 ID: 35edd4
File 136177143123.png - (100.48KB , 600x500 , manipulated.png )
68363

This is definitely not right. Someone's manipulating Kairosa. Wordblood knows something's up; tell him you see this green tentacle on her. Maybe make a grab for it? If that doesn't work we'll have to rely on his wisdom finding a mode of attack, or the thing's reaction.
>>
No. 68364 ID: f2c20c
File 136177331965.png - (94.05KB , 600x500 , tentacles.png )
68364

>>495867
Here's some more visible on the Hero Soul and Saulanna.
>>
No. 68365 ID: 52d91f
File 136178161078.png - (77.31KB , 600x500 , Tentacles2.png )
68365

I don't suppose we could get Engineer Syrup in here to assist with this? No?

Ah well, I think we definitely want Self-Awareness now. I think we might want to reconsider on Power Word: Clarity too.

Also: Beetlejuice, Bettlejuice, Beetlejuice!
>>
No. 68366 ID: cee89f

>>68363
>>68364
>>68365
...

I thought I was in the wrong tab and/or that there was an update for a second there =p
>>
No. 68369 ID: c5e94a
File 136229157067.png - (65.11KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdisc.png )
68369

"We can speak more freely here."

"Whatever this was, I don't think it's the Dragon's Shadow, not unless he's been severely changed from how I knew him. For one thing, he does not feel shame. It's not in his nature. On the other hand, he might not be directly involved; his essence has always had a particular habit of being... infectious, and bleeding outward in ways he doesn't intend."

"Pardon for disregard your calls about expending Titan's Will, by the way. Aside my concerns of making things worse, it was also a worry that any methods we could have used might be wasted. When a concealing force opposes a revealing one, the stronger is victorious. If it was the Dragon's Shadow doing this, or even one of his Lord souls, it would have been a waste. And if it wasn't him... Well, you seem to have other suspicions of your own?"

>>
No. 68370 ID: d6ef5d

I don't think that's the dragon's shadow anymore. It's too different.

>immune due to your element
>hiss of acid
>pain, not mine, but not totally removed
>upset balance
>Afraid/ashamed/Remorse/Grief/Despair/yearning/frustration

Wordblood, I think this thing might be whatever is left of He Who Bleeds.
>>
No. 68371 ID: 662219

>>68369

if it's just a seepage of his essence from the deal we made with Deathtits, the clarity power word trick just might work.

and if that's the case, the feelings you felt were probably his disgust over the defeat of your previous incarnation. I hear titans have rather strong feelings about that little incident.

it's not like we can do anything else right now, and if the aforementioned trick doesn't work, we probably should stop worrying about it because we can't really do anything about it except continuing to gain power.

heh, it reminds me of that one time I ran a quest and did something similar. but with centipedes. fuck yeah, centipedes rock.
>>
No. 68372 ID: 4411c7

Dang nabbit, we've got Wordblood's Neverborn all up in our mind-space not paying rent.
>>
No. 68373 ID: f2c20c
File 136229270007.png - (60.74KB , 600x500 , the_horror.png )
68373

>>68369
You're right. It's NOT him.

It's you. Or rather, a part of you. I believe you carried one of your Noble Souls with you. Your opposite.

Also uh it looks kinda...
>>
No. 68374 ID: f2c20c
File 136229273075.png - (72.15KB , 600x500 , THEHORROR.png )
68374

KINDA FREAKY.
>>
No. 68375 ID: 5d98c3

>>68373
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!

HIT IT WITH A STICK! IT'S SCARY!
>>
No. 68376 ID: cee89f

>>68369
...

Several voices have suggested that that thing is the Wyld taint in our hero's soul, and after that glance at it's form I'm starting to lean in that direction as well. It seems almost unreal, something without actual substance or form. On top of that... well...

I don't know how well you saw it, but it looked... chimera-esque. Tentacles, mouths, extra eyes everywhere, hands, wings... all placed seemingly without rhyme or reason all over it... And... it looked sad. It spoke to us when we tried to prod it. Just said 'hurt'.

However, you told us you could sense the taint in our hero's soul. Does this thing feel anything like that?
>>
No. 68377 ID: d6ef5d

>>68374
It looks more... distressed than hostile. Is there any way we could help it you think? Give it some kind of peace?
>>
No. 68378 ID: 9ddf68

>>68374
Anyone want to take a guess on what element or word that thing represents because from what i'm getting off this guy is he is some kind of hidden pain. like a skeleton in a closet sort of thing. I mean he isn't all that pleasant to look at, seems to be in pain, and wants nobody to know he's there.
would repression work here, as in repressing or bottling up some kind of pain or regret. I don't know
>>
No. 68379 ID: 76b151

Alright lets lay this down.

This thing restricts memories. Like a snake constricts its victims. The more they struggle the tighter its coils get. It could be tentacles, or vines too.

In the last picture we saw of it I thought it was almost tree-like. SO I'm leaning vines instead of tentacles.

Not only memories but apparently emotions can be constricted as well.

It's in pain because Worldblood can see it. No matter how faintly.

Acknowledging its presence, talking to it, communicating with it, actually caused it to retreat. It said it hurt it because of it.

It wishes to be Unknown. Its element might be some facet of that. And Wordblood's ability to communicate with everything is bypassing that.

Wordblood did He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word have a Deva with such an element? Who was strongly associated with a choking vine or some such?
>>
No. 68381 ID: 9f5b78

Yeah, I'm thinking we inherited two Devas from He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word. The ones responsible for the Unknown Word bit.
>>
No. 68382 ID: 1b643c

>>68376
Even if it is tainted by the Wyld, there is probably a good chance it could be a Noble Soul that was excised from HWBTUW, or something stranger, like a composite of several lesser nobles.
What would happen to a Noble Soul that was left on it's own devices or trapped somewhere it could not find it's superior?
Also, it may have a physical vessel somewhere nearby, when this phase is over I'ld suggest looking for any containment magic or traces of it's spoor. Maybe it wants you to find it.
>>
No. 68383 ID: 406926

Based on the description of its emotions toward you, Wordblood, I'm in agreement with the thinking that it's some remnant of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word. You said to us, once:
>"I was a key part of my progenitor, I think. My memories haze, somewhat. I may even have been the defining soul of He from whom I came. I wonder what happened when I was torn away. To damage a Titan's souls is to alter their nature."

If you were the defining soul of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word, surely he would feel what you described toward you now- grief, despair, yearning, frustration. It has been altered into something else in your absence, and knows that it has been altered into something else, creating that tension and sense of wrongness. You can feel the echo of its pain at your loss, and the eternal agony that all the Titans seem to be experiencing now.

The question is, is this is so, how did it get into Saulanna's internal world? Perhaps it was able to feel your awakening and use of Titan's Will after so long, still linked to you in some way even with your removal?

In any case, if you know the Lord devas of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word and could share a list, perhaps we might be able to take a guess at what has become of Him now and if the being we're seeing might be one of them.
>>
No. 68385 ID: f2c20c

Here's a disturbing thought: If this injured Noble or Deva needs help, isn't the best person to go to for that the Dragon's Shadow?

Maybe we don't want to tailor our choice of powers to beating Akatrina. Maybe we should be more worried about the Moon Heroes.
>>
No. 68386 ID: 5d98c3

>>68374
>>68377
AAAAAAAAAAH! IT'S A TRAGIC MONSTER HATED AND ALONE, FEARED BY ALL IN A WORLD THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND IT!

HIT IT WITH A STICK!
>>
No. 68387 ID: 281e24

This is...interesting.

Also, where this guy came from is suddenly a lot more important. Was he stuck in here when Peregrin did the original procedure? This guy just came along for the ride? Or was he implanted recently by Akatrina? If Akatrina is responsible for depositng this guy in us, then that implies she did it deliberately and knows a LOT more than we hoped she did, or this guy somehow hitchhiked on her to come to us.

Hmm...is it possible this guy is more like the ghost or something of Unknown Word? Wordblood is the new incarnation, this is the old incarnation, and the old incarnation KNOWS it no longer belongs. The new incarnation holds the rightful claim to the concepts, and it is ashamed, bottling itself up (just like the offered power) to avoid coming into direct conflict with Wordblood and ending with a fight to the death or something.

....Wait. Shit. Bottling up emotions. If this guy is using a power similar to that, bottling its own emotions, drawing it out, and with it the emotions, may be the worst thing we can do.

Other idea: is it possible that the Dragon's Shadow ate remains of Unknown Word in its way out of Hell? Incorporating fragments of a Titan that was never lobotomized into itself? So now what Akatrina put into us, something of the Dragon's Shadow's power, but also tied in Wordblood's, has just enough to have this unusual perspective?

Just speculating here.
>>
No. 68388 ID: 6ab4d5

Was that... A hekatonkhire? They are in a shadowland at night... Perhaps a Hekaton of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word? Or maybe a Deva of Elloge? (Has Elloge's status been confirmed for this Creation as far as we know? I just recently got here and I haven't read the whole of the previous discussion)
Gah, confusion.
>>
No. 68391 ID: 9f5b78

>>68388
>A hekatonkhire

Oh that is... That would be interesting. And perhaps also a good reason to start on a Creation Deva of Life so we could use some Titan's Will to bring this one back to it.
>>
No. 68393 ID: 370c40

>>68391
It already exists. A Creation deva would not be well suited to that.
>>
No. 68394 ID: 76b151

A healing deva, maybe one with with the element of rebirth probably would be better.
>>
No. 68395 ID: c5e94a
File 136231602321.png - (77.62KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis2.png )
68395

>>68370
>I think this thing might be whatever is left of He Who Bleeds.
>>68373
>It's you. Or rather, a part of you.

"No. If this was part of me, or part of who I once was, I would know. I feel a connection to it, but not to that degree. What I felt was... rrrmh. It's hard to choose a word you would understand. Alien to myself, but not completely so. Like how a bird would feel about the bottom of the sea. A world away from my own place, but still part of a higher order."

"Besides which... I've been thinking about my former existence, since Kairosa told me why I was assassinated. A quick set of first strikes to open a war? With Titans on their side, telling them our weak points? Killing us whole would have taken too long, been excessive. The more I consider what I would have done in that position, the responses there would have been, the more I think it was only I myself, as King, who was the real target. Kill me, and a few key Nobles, particularly through betrayal by creatures we loved... He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word would be shocked to the core. Traumatized. The other Lords would try to regenerate us into a more... defensive being. I, the Aide of Understanding, the communicator, would have had to have been... sacrificed. Allowed to fall aside. My opposing Noble raised in my place, perhaps. For the Greater Purpose. I understand, of course. Better, anticipating further injury, to become more insular, harder to penetrate. Less capable of reaching out. Those memories we have taken are thin on their knowledge of the Titans, but there are names I don't know, set over devas I do. Many Titans in the war were damaged enough to reform into creatures with different names. If I - who I had been - was one of those? No, there wouldn't be anything beyond myself in here, not that I would be unaware of."

"It is something of a relief, to hope my others still survive. I would like to catch up on them. But I am part of Saulanna, now. I am fortunate, and honoured, almost beyond belief."


>>68376
>Does this feel anything like [the Wyld taint]?

"That's an interesting question. My first instinct is to say no, but now I consider it... there's something similar. This has nothing to do with the Wyld, but when I think of how the touch of the Wyld afflicts the Hero Soul, there feels like some sort of similarity. There was some notice, earlier, that this entity's influence is on the Hero Soul as well. There is some sort of intersection there, but beyond that I cannot fathom it myself."

>It spoke to us
>just said 'hurt'

"I did hear. But it was... ambiguous, don't you think? Was that a declaration, a promise, or a request?"

>>68374
>KINDA FREAKY.

"Goodness, is that what it looked like? Disturbing."

"... Hold on."

"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"

>>
No. 68396 ID: 6d4230

Lets go out on a limb and not assume the worst: its not a hekatonkhire, (pretty sure they dont exist like devas anyway) and it certainly isnt a neverborn, because if it was, everthing would be gone. not dead, but fucking morganti erased.

It seems like it may be some kind of neverborn deva, but we dont know if the neverborn even have devas anymore.
So we cant realy deal with it until we know just what it is. and it isnt hostile unless we interact. damn.
>>
No. 68397 ID: f8a320

Saulanna tail's color and eyes marker.
>>
No. 68398 ID: 256d52

Do you think it's a curse?

What would it take to fuel, to anchor, the manifestation of the titan's rage and despair at betrayal by their own creations? You know, the blight on the victor's existence: their own creations in turn ruining everything they ever build, over and over, all the way down forever.

It was tied to the Hero's Soul, so Saulanna was affected. Kairosa was born of Saulanna, so was passed down to her as well. But you, Wordblood, are just enough outside to not be touched by it.

A curse is meant to hide its own existence after all. And bottling all your emotions up to be released later does remind me of limits being broken?
>>
No. 68399 ID: c6ca67

Eye marks and stripy coon-tail things?
Hrm. Could be your opposing opposite noble from He Who Bleeds The Written Word, who came in and got touched by the hero soul.
We did spend more than a bit of Titan's will on increasing your ablilities... Now, I'm fuzzy on how Titans work, but what if we basically 'fed' you to the point of needing a noble to manage all your powers?
Wait. That thing...WordBlood, Titan Devas are changed by each other right? That thing looks like you with the hero soul mixed in. Now, here's the important part, What changes have been applied to you from Kairosa and Saulanna?
Kairosa is Time, we might be somehow seeing a potential future form of you.
Also, you reflected your growth with bigger wings, but Kai didn't change at all. Saulanna I can understand not changing, she's not trained up yet, and I think she's akin to a blank slate, but that Kairosa didn't change...Suspicious, if you ask me. I wonder if that thing might have formed from all those things, like unwanted clippings and muck coming together to form some sort of 'scrap' Deva...
Explorer of the Past Stories, or something like that. The forgotten past of Saulanna, your lost memories, the unseen changes to Kairosa, and the Hero Soul's six times discarded powers...
>>
No. 68400 ID: cee89f

>>68395
>"I did hear. But it was... ambiguous, don't you think? Was that a declaration, a promise, or a request?"
............ Don't you know? You're made of communication, if it wanted to get a message across you'd have a better chance of getting the message than we would.

>"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"
... Honestly? No.

It looks draconic, but you told us many supernatural beings take such a form because it's comfortable. But you-

... Hold it, i just thought of something.

As others have said, that thing looks like... well, a chimera-ish you (except without the text on your scales). You said all devas influence each other to a degree. The Hero's soul is behaving as a deva. We know that a Moon Hero who changes too much becomes a chimera, because of the Wyld taint in our hero's soul. Now, you said Wyld taint on it's own would do nothing to a full-grown titan. But if the Hero's soul is influencing you like a Deva, is it possible it could be doing something to you with that and this is Kairosa's influence giving us warning?

IE, could that be you?

Personally I don't think so but it's an alarming enough question to pose.
>>
No. 68401 ID: c6319f

This... could be the Hero Soul manifesting as a Deva, or the beginning of it doing so.

It has the Raccoon totem marks, plus a whole whackload of other animal bits though less prominently, which could be forms or shapes it has picked up during its previous use.

There is a tinge of something like the Wyld that reminds you of what you felt on the Hero Soul.

>>/quest/497435
>distant echo of a scream of anguish. I feel a pain, not mine, but not totally removed.
He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word's death.
>Wrongness. Awareness of wrongness. A tension, of balance needing to be restored. Destruction.
The damage the death of the Titans caused creation.

I think it is highly likely that this being is a deva tightly linked to the Hero Soul. Either being born from it. Or being the result of the beginning of a transformation. Or something. And that it feels remorse for the death of the Titans its self/source took place in causing.
>>
No. 68402 ID: ce346f

Looks like a dragon made of traits partly close to the outer form. Those traits come from the Hero Soul.

Related to Wyld Taint, but not.

Hmm...

Just before her episode, Time suggested that the Hero Soul should be able to handle Wyld Taint, but couldn't. She said there was a reason why this was so. Perhaps this entity represents the reason.

Or again, going off the color, perhaps this entity is an original part of this Moon Hero/Titan, like Wordblood and the Hero Soul.

Would Worldreading do anything for your ability to notice and understand it?
>>
No. 68404 ID: 3bad4c

Perhaps the dying and injured titans unleashed their rage upon the Exaltation Shards?

This is an echo of their pain and anger. I imagine it's fairly evenly distributed, perhaps you're only seeing the manifestation from HWBTUW because you're on the same wavelength, or perhaps any ancient titanic deva could see the same.

There might be dozens of these things you can't even see, all of them working to subvert any Hero. Or maybe it's just the one manifestation per shard.

Except in this place, you're not the enemy. It can't act against you. This echo of HWBTUW is your first and only connection to the titan that was. Any chance you could trace it back to its source?

Perhaps its afraid of you because of what you could discover if you found it.
>>
No. 68405 ID: 0909a0

>>68395
wait, wtf!?
Saulanna's raccoon strokes under the eyes and tentacles/tail, Kai's middle eye, your dragon stuff.

this thing is a combination of ALL THREE OF YOU.
wtf does that even mean? what did the hero soul do!?
>>
No. 68406 ID: fd17e8

Oh fuck, it's the Great Curse.
>>
No. 68409 ID: d1efde

>>68395
The Hero soul is supposed to be able to adapt to becoming part of a Titan if I recall. Could it be attempting to copy you? Using you as an example for how to be a deva?

Or here's an idea. According to Kairosa the first and second incarnations of this particular soul were during the war. The second apparently killed many devas including Lords. She also said the soul was exposed to stealth magic for so long that it actually carries stealth with it, which could explain why it's so hard to perceive. What are the chances this HS was directly involved in bringing down He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word? That it killed one of your fellow devas, maybe consumed the heart if that's possible?
>>
No. 68411 ID: d6ef5d

>The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?
I suppose now that you mention it, the stripping and eyeshadows do resemble Saulanna's own totem marks. And the chaotic shapeshifting this thing seems to be doing might speak some connection to the hero's soul as well.

But it also looks very draconic- and like you. It even sprouted wings and feathers in the last moments we saw it. Your descriptions of it come back to themes we associate with you (and/or he who bleeds)- your element, the hiss of acid, a description full of sounds, and the feelings towards you.

So... it's something connected to the exaltation, and to you? The hero's soul reacting to you? Some kind of mirror or opposite of yourself? An attempt to understand or oppose you and/or your influence in it's host? The hero's soul adapting to the titan-ness badly? An unplanned birth of annother Deva?
>>
No. 68412 ID: cee89f

>Hrm. Could be your opposing opposite noble from He Who Bleeds The Written Word, who came in and got touched by the hero soul.
>This echo of HWBTUW
Guys, he JUST SAID that it's not any part of He Who Bleeds and that he would know if it was.
>>
No. 68413 ID: 32c1ec

>>68395

>"The stripes. And with the eyes... do you see the resemblance that I do?"

Actually, yeah. Even if all three of the Devas exist separate from one another, the fact remains that most Titans- such as Malfeas, The Ebon Dragon, etc- form an amalgam, titanic form that's greater than the sum of its parts. Notice the components. Its eyes and body have similar markings to Saulanna's. Its form is largely draconic or serpentine, perhaps owing to Wordblood. Furthermore, all those mouths. I can think of two possibilities, then.

One: It's a representation of the current titanic form, still twisted and deformed for some strange reason.

Two: It's a possibility- an echo from the future, of what Saulanna could become if she would be twisted by the power of the Wyld, someday. The power it represents would have allowed Saulanna to suppress and delay her emotional response- emotional control does seem to be a Wyld Thing.

However, and this is the one that might be most likely. When the Hero Souls were first forged, they contained the ability to 'push off' mental influence into their limit track. They could use this power to resist the Primordials, in canon. This capability is the same one that the dying titans twisted into the existing Limit Track, via the Great Curse.

A Lunar that accumulates too much permanent limit /becomes/ a chimera- a creature that this thing resembles.

Because of the fragmented nature of Saulanna's existance, maybe the taint left by fallen titans on her soul has melded with the possibility of chimeric transformation to produce an independent entity. One that is born of the hero soul, and of titanic influence. This one here seems the most likely.

So we might just have run into an incarnation of the Great Curse. What do we do about this?

I personally think it needs a hug.
>>
No. 68414 ID: d6ef5d

Oh, yeah. That's another thing to note, Wordblood. This thing seems to be the source of the Emotions Bottle upgrade available to Saulanna. Does the fact it's capable of that give any insight to its nature?
>>
No. 68415 ID: 4a328b

Is it our totem, the noble racoon?
>>
No. 68416 ID: 719e49

Us...but monstrous?
Oh.
Our Shadow opposite, we're in the shadowlands, and we've been there for long enough.
I'm guessing that the opposite dislikes WordBlood because Understanding brings people together, and unites them, or because as an Aide, WordBlood won't do anything to take charge, while the opposite will not be happy if it has to bow to another...Or it could just view WordBlood's submission as agreeing to be Saulanna's slave, but I doubt that.
Any of that sound right to you, WordBlood?
>>
No. 68417 ID: 4a328b

The hero soul is supposed to adapt...maybe it's becoming a deva? It already acted like one during Kairosa's creation, right?
>>
No. 68418 ID: 520816

>>68395
What do we do if this is some version of the Great Curse and/or the Hero Soul? Well, WB's strength is in communication, and Saulanna's overall theme/Heart's Desire so far has been something like "remain free, learn, gain friends and followers". So, a friendly approach to this thing might actually work.

Wordblood: How about formally greeting it and offering it recognition as a Deva? Or even offering to let it stay hidden from the others for now, if it opens up to you?

This might be a bad idea, but how about encouraging Saulanna to buy that emotion power it's offering? The power itself sounds foolish to use in most cases, but having it could make it easier to interact with the new "deva". If nothing else, it would be informative to see the *second* power it offers if Saulanna buys the first. Something lying-related? Dragon. Something shapeshifting-related? Hero Soul/Curse. Metal-related? Saulanna is secretly an Alchemical. =)
>>
No. 68419 ID: 520816

>>68395
What do we do if this is some version of the Great Curse and/or the Hero Soul? Well, WB's strength is in communication, and Saulanna's overall theme/Heart's Desire so far has been something like "remain free, learn, gain friends and followers". So, a friendly approach to this thing might actually work.

Wordblood: How about formally greeting it and offering it recognition as a Deva? Or even offering to let it stay hidden from the others for now, if it opens up to you?

This might be a bad idea, but how about encouraging Saulanna to buy that emotion power it's offering? The power itself sounds foolish to use in most cases, but having it could make it easier to interact with the new "deva". If nothing else, it would be informative to see the *second* power it offers if Saulanna buys the first. Something lying-related? Dragon. Something shapeshifting-related? Hero Soul/Curse. Metal-related? Saulanna is secretly an Alchemical. (They're robots in disguise, you know.) =)
>>
No. 68426 ID: 3bad4c

>>68412
You're like a little tantrum thrower, and my interpretation has not changed.
>>
No. 68429 ID: 5d121c

Seems like the, er, let's say the "wrongness" in the hero soul that Kairosa discovered.
>>
No. 68433 ID: f2c20c

>>68395
...oh god. It's a raccoon/dragon/chaosthing.

It's the Hero Soul, adapting to being part of a Titan and thus becoming more draconic apparently, but having lots of trouble with the adaptation due to whatever it was that Kairosa found. It's ashamed to be part of a titan? Or ashamed that it's having so much trouble adapting to you? Or ashamed that it KILLED you? Wouldn't it be a terrible coincidence if this was the Hero Soul of the Lunar responsible for ripping HWbtUW apart? It would be like... fate. Samsara.

If this is the Hero Soul creating an aspect of itself more attuned to being part of a Titan, I imagine that the more Devas that Saulanna creates, the more the Hero Soul will adapt, and its form will get freakier and freakier.

On the other hand, maybe it's actually the part of the Hero Soul that's... broken? Maybe this is entirely what Kairosa found, and independent somehow inside the Hero Soul? That would explain why Saulanna's moon abilities seem to come from a separate source than this guy. Yet, it is closely tied with the Hero Soul, and is thus affected by its attempted adaptation to you and her.

In either case we actually need the help of someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls. Which is... Autochthon? Luna, maybe?
>>
No. 68434 ID: 4a328b

>>68433
"Someone whose whole thing was messing with things", maybe?
>>
No. 68435 ID: cee89f

>>68426
... And somehow that invalidates that Wordblood would be able to tell if it was a piece of HWB? Not even gonna try and explain that? Just gonna call me a brat and move on?

'Kay.

>>68433
>In either case we actually need the help of someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls. Which is... Autochthon? Luna, maybe?
The former isn't easily reachable in our current predicament... maybe Luna, but since we're not sure this is from our hero's soul that may very well be Miracle level stuff. And as Luna said we'd need "some serious religion up in here" to get any miracles from her.

The Wyld taint, maybe, but I'm skeptical about this being the hero's soul itself. It's green and (more importantly) appears to be putting one of it's tentacles on the hero's soul itself, as it did with Saulanna and Kairosa, who it was manipulating.
>>
No. 68442 ID: 7f2a1b

>>68395
A series of thoughts occur.

The slithering something from Akatrina happened before the birthing of Kairosa.
Before Kairosa was fully birthed and formed, there seemed to be no real distinction between Saulanna and her Hero Soul in the inner world.
From what I gathered, Wordy's role in the whole shebang was mostly (if not completely) akin to that of a midwife of sorts.

Could the birthing process have... "leaked" somehow, or perhaps provided an opening for the slithering something to do more than it could've if the event had not taken place?

Feel free to ignore my ramblings if any/all the points I'm bringing up seem unlikely/have been refuted already (or for any other reason, I'm not the boss of you).
>>
No. 68452 ID: 858b1f

actually as your shadow, your antithesis, couldn't it be that words are what hurt?
Words bring light to a situation and allow for communication, maybe as your shadow these things are as painful for him as you implied that the opposite would be for you?

/quest/>>454389
>"I... do, also, still have the ability to prevent compulsion by rendering speech meaningless. I don't think it will be useful, however, in this situation. And... I would prefer not to. It hurts me."
>>
No. 68457 ID: 52d91f

>>68406
Agreed. The question is whether or not we can convey OOC knowledge to Wordblood here.

That said, I think you guys have that handled.

...Well, ok, a little help. Wordblood, I've been given to understand that the Dragon's Shadow handed out an "Ultimate Weapon" to his fellow Titans during the war. Think for a bit on what sort of weapons he might have created.
>>
No. 68458 ID: 52d91f

As for why you're not effected Wordblood, you're the only pure Titan soul here. Saulana is an Exalt and Kairosa was created from her, so they would bear the effects of any curse laid down upon the Exalted.
>>
No. 68459 ID: 52d91f
File 136238187993.png - (120.70KB , 600x500 , 135664957849.png )
68459

(I'm not sure how to do color, sorry, but I thought these quotes might be relevant.)

>>480875
>>480876

"Oh... oh no! The war! The fighting! The Titans, they, they had to live out in the chaos for so long and it was so hard and so horrible and all they wanted was to look after each other and their souls and they made the world to be safe, so their souls could be happy and then it all went wroooooong!! The gods betrayed them!! We made them and we gave them life and meaning and they could live with us in here where it's safe and then they made Heroes and they attacked us and hurt us and, and they went in and tore them up from the inside so they could feel their souls dying inside them, they could feel themselves getting weaker, and when they realized they wouldn't be able to bring them back they cried, because they'd failed, they felt so horrible and ashamed and angry and it kept happening, until it was so bad they wanted to die, and they did, but they couldn't, but they were so hurt and so sad, and they hated the gods so much for doing that to them that it was the last thing they could even think and the last thing that bled from their veins and the last breath that they used to, to...!"

"To... damn it! Curse them! Curse them all, idiotic ungrateful little scraps of nothing that wouldn't exist without us! Whine and complain and make speeches to themselves about how righteous they are, like worms crawling under a rock and complaining about how heavy it is when they know nothing about the heat of the sun or the birds that would eat them!! How noble of them to cover how much their freedom cost reality itself, all the gods and the creatures that were murdered just because they were loyal, all the places and the times and the things wiped from existence because of their cursed ignorance!! They can suffer! Any of them with any nobility can rot trying to stall their guilt with toys and drugs and let their fools and villains destroy them all, and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build, again, and then again, and it can keep happening all the way down for ever and ever AND EVE-!!"
>>
No. 68460 ID: 52d91f

Oh, as for ideas as to things we might want to do in the future, I vote for end the Neverborn's torment (assuming the Dragon's Shadow hasn't already handled that anyway).
>>
No. 68461 ID: 17e4f3

>old dis thread reaches critical postcount mass
>open up new dis thread
>new dis thread gets about 200 posts in a week
>>
No. 68463 ID: f2c20c

>>68459
Hey, I didn't notice the green glow around the edges there. I *did* notice that our green mystery soul has eyes exactly matching the red triangle we've been seeing that's affiliated with Titans. I thought that she had tapped into something in the past that was blocking the memory, but perhaps it was the green fellow in the present keeping her from remembering it?

Maybe it IS the personification of whatever's wrong with the Hero Soul, and it doesn't want us to find out what was done to the Hero Soul since fixing the Hero Soul would... probably kill it.

Well, shit.
>>
No. 68464 ID: e3aff6

>actually as your shadow, your antithesis, couldn't it be that words are what hurt?
I am finding that likely. Plenty of us noticed or talked about it, but it only reacted directly to the one that talked to it.
>>
No. 68465 ID: 47a120

>>68369
>Whatever this was, I don't think it's the Dragon's Shadow
>his essence has always had a particular habit of being... infectious, and bleeding outward in ways he doesn't intend.
I wonder if that means that taking the upgrade it offered would have "infected" us with some of his essence as well.
>>
No. 68466 ID: 952246

>>68461
"Critical mass" doesn't refer to postcount, it just meant that the old thread was full of fat people complaining.
>>
No. 68476 ID: 17e4f3

>>68466

as opposed to the new one, which seems to be...

anyway, I don't think speculating about Mr. Hurt's nature will help us here since we'd have to find out for sure to be, well, sure.

it's not like it's doing much except hiding and hurting, so meh, let it.
>>
No. 68478 ID: 47a120

>>68476
which means we should probably go ahead and spend the TW as planned and move on for now. Also WB saying that using clarity with a lower SF means it will fail so... we should really get going with TW production to raise everyone's SF a lot.
>>
No. 68479 ID: f2c20c

Oh, one thing we haven't touched on...

It doesn't look like Kairosa at all, does it? Or maybe that's where it's getting the teeth from?
>>
No. 68480 ID: f2c20c

Oh, and... Wordblood, you've seen how it acts, and what it can do, and how it speaks (poorly). What would you estimate its Soul Force to be?

Do you think... giving it TW to upgrade its Soul Force would help it feel more at ease?
>>
No. 68484 ID: 1c7e1b

Honestly (using too much meta-Exalted knowhow) it reminds me of the Kukla. Mainly the five eyes. I don't see how the stripes remind us of anything. Anyone else think it looks familiar?
>>
No. 68485 ID: 1c7e1b

>>68406
This is the most likely.
>>
No. 68486 ID: f5ad43

Hmm... From all that has been said. Wouldn't the most logical conclusion be that this is an intruding demon lord from the Sphere of Speech.

You know. The Yozi He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word became?
>>
No. 68488 ID: cee89f

>>68486
It would be consistent with both it's color scheme, Wordblood being the only one to sense it and the feelings Wordblood got, but how would it have gotten here? How would it have gotten out of Malfeas on it's own, given what we know of the prison? (Again, this could be lack of exalted knowledge rearing it's ugly head) And if it didn't do so on it's own, who would've planted it into us? Akatrina? Somehow I doubt a servant of DS would have access to one of the Sphere's devas. Mostly because DS and Ebon Dragon were both massive pricks =/
>>
No. 68494 ID: c698e5

Could it be some kind of 'weird time shit'? Like, an echo of the future Saulanna that could be, or the you that could happen, or something? That's the thought I get.
>>
No. 68495 ID: 47a120

>>68486
only the titans who surrendered and were imprisoned (after some soul mutilation) became yozis. The dead titans are... I think they are the neverborn but not sure...

However, WB did specify that the other titans would try to repair the damage... so what if they rebuilt the titan in such a way that discarded WB as he had suggested, and then THAT rebuilt titan was one of those who surrendered?
And to top it all off its "infected" with the essence of shadow because that's how shadow works?
>>
No. 68500 ID: e37912

Random thought: where has our Beast Soul been hiding?
>>
No. 68501 ID: feb8ad

>>68486
That thing doesn't look like Elloge, Sphere of Speech.

>Outwardly, Elloge is invisible unless something should enter the sphere of her being, upon which onlookers will see them turn into whispering glyphs displayed in the air. Her interior is strange and bizarre to those from more physical realms, wherein features of linguistics and language take on an existence of their own.

Not at all.
>>
No. 68502 ID: f5ad43

And Erembour certainly doesn't look like a dragon, while Ligier is most certainly not a city. I said a demon lord (local terminology for 3rd circles. I guess Lord Demon would be more appropriate), not the Yozi itself.

Demons can leave Malfeas when certain conditions are met. The Yozis themselves can't leave, but even their highest souls can escape hell given the right circunstances.

Given all of Wordblood's feelings on the matter, I really can't brush aside the idea that this is what He Who Bleeds became, which is, yes, The Sphere of Speech. Not a neverborn.
>>
No. 68503 ID: cee89f

>>68501
Exalted canon is (apparently) a no-no.

<--- Regularly attempts to use Exalted canon he only barely understands.

>>68502
>Demons can leave Malfeas when certain conditions are met. The Yozis themselves can't leave, but even their highest souls can escape hell given the right circunstances.

Okay... So maybe DS found out about Wordblood before it was grafted on and told Elloge it's location in exchange for something? But when would DS have figured it out, and since only the Underworld's time flows according to his will Elloge would've had to have heard about it in the last day or so...?
>>
No. 68504 ID: 9db85e

Is it possible this creature is an aspect of the great curse? The shadow of the titans as it had fallen onto the Lunar Exaltation?
>>
No. 68505 ID: f2c20c

If we're not supposed to use Exalted canon, then the logical thing to do is to use only what we've learned in the quest.

It's NOT the Dragon's Shadow, and it's NOT part of Wordblood or the Titan Wordblood came from. That means it's something directly related to either the Hero Soul or Saulanna.

I'm pretty sure it's related to the Hero Soul, since we've found out there's something broken in it, AND it's turning GREEN.
>>
No. 68506 ID: f5898d

I wonder if Saulanna has a *solar* mate?
>>
No. 68507 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68506
For some reason Abyssals and Infernals are still referred to as 'solar mates' despite not being solars anymore, and every Lunar got a Solar bondmate, so yeah.

(... I don't get it either, maybe it's just the people I talk to)

>>68505
Kairosa mentioned a curse. Maybe Wordblood is largely immune because he isn't being influenced by the Hero's soul to the same degree as Kai and Saul? Remember, Kairosa had the Moon Soul influence her birth and Saulanna originally had it grafted directly onto her soul.

>>68504
It's possible, and makes some sense. The Great Curse would try to hide itself (no point in making someone succumb to their own virtues or lack thereof if they can see and prevent it), and Wordblood is the only one here who hasn't had the Hero's soul's influence on him. Or at least not to the degree that Kai and Saulanna did.

... Honestly, I'm lost here. If I had to answer at gunpoint, I'd say great curse, but honestly even that feels a little off. It doesn't really explain why Wordblood feels some familiarity or the various feelings he's getting from it.
>>
No. 68508 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68507
>Wrong password
... I feel i should clarify: I do NOT mean Wordblood isn't being influenced by the hero's soul - just that it hasn't touched him as strongly as it's touched Saulanna and Kairosa, both of whom had their entire mind, body and worldview directly shaped by the soul (Saulanna's entire personality [and metaphysical state, apparently] was an amnesiac with a hero's soul at the start of this quest, and the Soul directly participated in Kairosa's creation)
>>
No. 68509 ID: f2c20c

>>68507
Kairosa didn't mention a curse. She went from trying to remember what happened to the Hero Soul to "curse them! GRR!" It COULD be interpreted as the same sentence, but only coincidentally.
>>
No. 68512 ID: 5b3e4b

>>68509
Not that - I concede that could just be coincidence (heck, first time i read it I thought it was - I'd forgotten the great curse for some reason) but during the rant she mentions the curse's effects... and there was one thing before, now that i look back again.

>There's something else. There was something else. Some other problem. Let me think...

(Referring to why the Wyld taint wasn't adapted to by the hero's soul)

>... and let their fools and villains destroy them all, and they can get a lesson on what it's like to be betrayed when their own creations ruin everything they ever wanted to build..."

ie, that they wanted to make the Heroes betray their gods.

Admittedly, this could also be interpreted as just the Titans screaming in rage, but considering that we know Titans influence reality whether they want to or not and Kairosa implied that many (if not all) titans felt that way, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that they did something, even if we don't know what the effect of what they did /is/.
>>
No. 68516 ID: 77cb34

Bah, plot happenings in questdis? You're making HalfTangible fifteen times harder to ignore. (It's bad for my blood pressure, the publicly shared email address and... less than stunning brilliance makes me want to sign him up for a billion years' worth of gay porn.)

Anyway! Might be on to something in thinking that words hurt it. Could you try communicating with it through a more symbolic representation? It's not exactly your purview, but perhaps the rudiments of pre-language will inspire a different response.
>>
No. 68517 ID: cee89f

>>68516
>(It's bad for my blood pressure, the publicly shared email address and... less than stunning brilliance makes me want to sign him up for a billion years' worth of gay porn.)
Awwwwwwwww, who'sa cute little twoll! You are! You are! *rattlerattlerattle*
[/joking]
Just fyi: once your father calls you a "mass murderer waiting to happen" you get dulled to the opinions of others. You're gonna have to try harder.

Unrelated: why didn't anyone just TELL me the email was annoying? I'd have deleted it =/
>>
No. 68539 ID: a12965

Perhaps this being might be present because of the process Peregrin used in attaching wordblood to Saulanna? We know so little about that yet, we shouldn't overlook the possibility. The dragons shadow is his master, after all. Even if he had no intent to he might have gotten in that way.
>>
No. 68544 ID: 77cb34

Hmm, if we have our very own Cthonic Baara, I'm going to be a happy man. (For reference, that being the horrible abomination other-THING that Luna can whip out when shit's really gotten real.)

>>68517
>I don't care what anybody else thinks!

>But if this annoys so much as one person I'll change it right away!

hahahaha k
>>
No. 68545 ID: 8b39b2

Now that the point of familiarity has been brought up, and people talking about raccoon imagery what with the stryped and all, could it be possible that this is the portion of Saulannas Lunar exaltation that was warped by their long stay in chaos itself?
If so, then we could beat the whole needing lunar tatoos to survive as a viable, not-crazy monstrosity by somehow binding this thing ourselves.

but that doesnt explain its penchant for hiding, nor the bottling that it does with our emotions and memories.
>>
No. 68546 ID: cee89f

>>68544
That doesn't count! It's fine when I contradict myself, but nobody can be a hypocrite except for me!

...

Self deprecating joke aside, I said i was dulled to the opinions of others, not that I didn't care at all :P

>>68539
Maybe, but the stripes kinda make that iffy.

>>68545
>If so, then we could beat the whole needing lunar tatoos to survive as a viable, not-crazy monstrosity by somehow binding this thing ourselves.
We're a titan - we'll eventually be immune anyway. That's why we didn't want the Lunar tattoos - they either wouldn't work at all or broadcast our identity as a Titan, which is something we're trying to keep secret at the moment.

>but that doesnt explain its penchant for hiding, nor the bottling that it does with our emotions and memories.
The Wyld, as explained in Lunar quest, is composed entirely of potentiality but no actuality.

Possibility: It's getting a form because of it's close proximity to a titan, but since it's still largely potential it can't be directly seen, and it's hiding because those in the Wyld are utterly sickened by the idea of having one constant form.

(...Considering how many posts i've made in the discussion thread over the last 2 days, I think I'll shut up for a while.)
>>
No. 68547 ID: 4a328b

Can we like, bring some moonsilver into our inner world and tattoo this entity instead of ourselves? Would that even do anything?
>>
No. 68553 ID: 9f5b78

>>68503
>Exalted canon is (apparently) a no-no.

>>55916
>The Titan Fragment which became Wordblood is formed from what remained in Creation of He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word, the rest of whom regenerated into Elloge, the Sphere of Speech, yes.
>>
No. 68555 ID: cee89f

>>68553
That's Jukashi's "word of god", not Exalted canon. We know where Wordblood comes from but the appearance of Elloge has not been brought up here. (heck, Wordblood, Kairosa and Saulanna wouldn't know what became of HWB either)

... Okay, this time, shutting up for real.
>>
No. 68557 ID: beeca1

As far as I can tell, most everything prior to the Dragon's rebellion is standard Exalted canon. Since then, though, anything goes.
>>
No. 68559 ID: 3dd384

>>68406
Makes sense.

Through a Titan's soul hierarchy, her nature is laid bare.

The death-curse of the slain Titans... if it's real, it's got to be intertwined with the nature of the Heroes of the Gods. It'd be an integral part of who she is, and metaphysically separate from the themes espoused by the Hero Soul itself.

Now that she has a soul hierarchy proper, why wouldn't it be a Noble Soul of its own?

Of course, in that case, this poor thing, this manifestation of hurt and betrayal and the unfairness of everything that's happened from the revolution onward... it's on Team Rockblossom as much as the rest of us, and it starts to get a little weird to treat it as something to excise at all costs.

What a pickle.
>>
No. 68560 ID: 3dd384

>>68557
We can't assume anything. Our reference material makes out the Ebon Dragon to be a pointless dick, who wasn't even changed that much when they imprisoned him. Far cry from "he always used to do this kind of thing - like a prank but with a lesson". At this point, we have to entertain the possibility that any deep dark secret we think we have is seriously inaccurate to the world that Saulanna and Friends inhabit.

Heck, who knows. Maybe the Great Curse doesn't even real, and Kairosa's reaction to the "flaw" in the Lunar Exaltation was just a coincidence!
>>
No. 68561 ID: 3dd384

>>68559
Uh, actually, actionable question here.

Wordblood, for a "natural born" Titan like the ones you used to know, would it be unusual for them to have a Noble Soul or two whose nature was sort of cross-purposes with their progenitor? Or is that sort of thing normal?
>>
No. 68563 ID: 9f5b78

>>68555
>We know where Wordblood comes from but the appearance of Elloge has not been brought up here.

>>>55916
>the Sphere of Speech
>Sphere

Seems very unlikely that Elloge's appearance is that different then it is in Exalted. I don't necessarily think that's anything to go on regarding the appearance of her Demon's, as Elloge has no canon ones, but I think it's pretty safe to assume The Sphere of Speech looks more or less as she's described in normal Exalted.

On a somewhat unrelated note, looking through things on Elloge, I found something in Dreams of The First Age that I had forgotten. A city was made from the... Blood/Words of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word once he fell. If we do search out lost fragments of He Who Bleeds, the ruins of Lodros are the most likely place for us to end up.
>>
No. 68567 ID: 3dd384

Color reference:
Wordblood - d50000
Kairosa - a600dc
Moon Soul - 004dda
??? - 10a500
>>
No. 68568 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/498224
not at her current production levels.
If we invest in her production abilities then she could; but there is strong opposition to that, as well as strong opposition to eating more ghosts. a bit of a catch22
>>
No. 68569 ID: 47a120

>>/quest/498215
I know.
My point is that people are making suggestions in quest and yet jukashi's last post in quest linked to a questdis post which actually continued right off where the quest left and seems to actually contain plot development by having WB talking to us there. It SEEMS to me like the quest portion is on hold while we are actually running part of the quest on questdis now.
>>
No. 68571 ID: 370c40

>>68569
We might actually be running both simultaneously.
So we suggest something for Kairosa and Saulanna to do while Wordblood figures things out in here.
>>
No. 68572 ID: f2c20c

>>68569
It's not on hold. We're SUPPOSED to be telling Saulanna to do unimportant, non-major things that will occupy her time while Wordblood figures out what's going on.

WHICH MEANS NOT SPENDING TW ON SHIT YOU DUNCE.
>>
No. 68574 ID: cee89f

>>68557
We-
>>68560
... That. Jukashi has said that Lunar Quest is an altered exalted setting changed in many ways - the sun, for instance, is no longer a battleship/mecha (otherwise the rise of the red sun and her heroes would have to answer where she got her massive ship)

>Heck, who knows. Maybe the Great Curse doesn't even real, and Kairosa's reaction to the "flaw" in the Lunar Exaltation was just a coincidence!

Alternatively, the Great Curse has a completely different effect.

>>68563
We cannot assume anything from Exalted still applies here. We've been asked not to and even if we could (imho, more importantly) it's bad form to use metaknowledge to your advantage like that. All characters currently there don't know what Elloge looks like, so they can't use that knowledge. And neither should we.

>>68568
>>68569
Read it again. We're supposed to be discussing things with Wordblood here while occupying Saulanna's time with mundane, meaningless tasks that cost no TW, since we're not sure using it is safe and we might need the Will.

>>68572
... Isn't allcaps yelling MY job?

>>68567
kthx
>>
No. 68575 ID: 3dd384

>>68568
I wish we had the luxury of ramping up TW as soon as possible, but we were totally styled on in the library and we needed to address that. But I think it's okay. In nine days from now, we'll be right where we would have been had we gone with your plan from the beginning.

Like I said - all Kairosa needs is some time.
>>
No. 68576 ID: 3dd384
File 136258362556.jpg - (57.98KB , 750x500 , _tmp.jpg )
68576

>>68574
Kairosa's reaction makes it sound like it might be a samsara thing. Setting a cycle of revolution and dissipation as the default way for things to go with Heroes.
>>
No. 68578 ID: 9f5b78

>>68574
>We cannot assume anything from Exalted still applies here. We've been asked not to and even if we could (imho, more importantly) it's bad form to use metaknowledge to your advantage like that. All characters currently there don't know what Elloge looks like, so they can't use that knowledge. And neither should we.

I did say the knowledge was useless to us anyway, as how a Yozi looks and how it's Demon's look aren't always linked and Elloge has no canon Demon's. And yes, none of the characters know how Elloge looks, and they also don't know that He Who Bleeds became Elloge. So useless information all around. I'm just saying that it's very unlikely that Elloge doesn't look more or less the same as she does in normal Exalted given that Jukashi has said He Who Bleeds became Elloge the Sphere of Speech. If an author clarifies that in this version Character A becomes Character B just like in normal Exalted, Character B looking completely different, especially when her Title which is referenced in the clarification is a physical descriptor? Well that's very unlikely.
>>
No. 68580 ID: 47a120

>>68572
1. Meta as fuck
2. How was I supposed to figure that out?
3. Ok, changed my quest post to reflect this
>>
No. 68581 ID: 47a120

>>68575
If we do not spend the 3TW now to buy Generation 3 then it will take us 3 weeks to generate them (with allocating 5 motes AND predetermining what they are used for).
After those 3 weeks we would go from 1/week to 1/day and would have to spend to upgrade saullan SF, her SF, and then spend 4TW to upgrade generation again. Also WB because people don't want to hurt his feelings.

I am saying "never eat another ghost" and "don't spend any TW on generation" are mutually exclusive goals.
My personal preference is to not spend any TW on generation and instead keep on eating ghosts. However people are so ridiculously opposed to it (like you are) that I instead suggested spending on TW generation and never having to eat another ghost... only to find out people are equally opposed to that. Hence the catch 22.
>>
No. 68582 ID: c59939

>>68581
I am pro "eat ghosts" and "Get TW generation out the ass down the road, then continue eating occasional ghosts"
>>
No. 68585 ID: 7f2a1b

Perhaps we should try communicating with the hiding green again, only this time, with feelings, concepts, and ideas instead of words?
>>
No. 68588 ID: 9f5b78

>>68580
>2. How was I supposed to figure that out?

From this
>>/quest/497431
It's very, very clear.
>>
No. 68590 ID: cee89f

>>68575
>Like I said - all Kairosa needs is some time.
I get it! =D

>>68576
>Setting a cycle of revolution and dissipation as the default way for things to go with Heroes.
Sounds like it. Depending on how exactly they decided to do that, it could mean any number of things: it could work like the Great Curse in exalted, or just influencing samsara to work harder on betrayal.

>>68578
... If you don't think we can use that knowledge then why bring Elloge's appearance up?

>>68581
The problem with spending Will on generation is the fact that we have Akatrina and the two Moon Heroes to deal with.

Personally I think we should spend our current Will on winning our current social predicament. Later, we can eat the ghosts, use TW on generation, then generate Will to release them. It's more like imprisonment than eating that way.

>>68585
I like this idea.
>>
No. 68591 ID: 9f5b78

>>68590
>... If you don't think we can use that knowledge then why bring Elloge's appearance up?

Not the guy who brought it up originally. Just felt that "Can't trust Canon knowledge" didn't really apply in this situation due to previous Word of God. The knowledge may not be relevant in this situation, but it's probably pretty solid ground for speculation in other areas(Such as Ruins of Lodros being a future place we might find He Who Bleeds fragments) There's honestly so little Canon information regarding Elloge that metagaming with it's next to impossible, but speculation with a decently solid base can be fun.
>>
No. 68600 ID: 47a120

>>68590
>I think we should spend our current Will on winning our current social predicament. Later, we can eat the ghosts, use TW on generation, then generate Will to release them. It's more like imprisonment than eating that way.

A wise course of action that has been thought out and is actually consistent with the rules of the quest. Although it does bear the risk of fucking us over if we get kidnapped by the lunars since we wont be able to eat more ghosts then... Although that can be eliminated by having 3x1TW abilities purchased now (since K can unspend 1TW abilities at the moment and redirect that TW to generation if this does come to pass).

This plan of yours is one of several I am willing to support. However it appears to me that even the "temporarily eat them" route is rife with strife of those who oppose the issue. Thus I will _only_ be willing to support it if it is implemented as a whole rather then in steps, as steps will result in falling into the catch22. The first step (spend nothing on generation) will come to pass, and when the second step of your plan needs to be enacted (eat a bunch of ghosts) it will be vetoed and we will end up screwed.

This is a meta issue but it is a significant one and a flaw that will ruin uis. Thus I find it safer to just spend the 3TW on upgrading generation from 1/week to 1/day now and then IMMEDIATELY go out to eat more ghosts (either permanently or with intent to undo later)
>>
No. 68602 ID: cee89f

>>68600
One possibility to avoid that problem is to forego spending entirely for the moment, then going to find the other ghosts to eat.

This, unfortunately, is probably not a popular option.
>>
No. 68605 ID: 47a120

>>68602
that is a very good point. We should do that. spending on hold while we hunt the other slavers
>>
No. 68608 ID: 370c40

>>68605
I actually do like that option, because even if we don't want to eat all of them, we still don't want them running around free. The slave trade is a bad thing!
>>
No. 68609 ID: 3dd384

>>68581
>>68600
I totally agree that Will Generation 3 is essential at this stage, if we're not eating ghosts. But...
>>/quest/495847
>Saulanna decides to get the Will Generation upgrade and set it to her own Soul Force, for 3 TW
It's the #1 item in Saulanna's budget right now, and we've got no reason to think the budget is changing. So unless something happens, I'm considering it to be a given that once this scene is over we'll be generating at 1/day speeds.
>>
No. 68613 ID: 7991f1

uhhh... where's Gevin at?
>>
No. 68614 ID: 370c40

>>68613
somewhere in the village or something???
Supposedly he's supposed to be laying low.
>>
No. 68615 ID: 47a120

>>68609
Its not her #1 priority but rather then only decided expense. Everyone agreed to raise SF3 for everyone so we did that. that left us 10 points.
People then argued various ways to spend those 10 points. I and several others wanted to put all 10 into production. Most wanted to put 0 and put all 10 in social.
Based on various factors the compromise figure was set at 3 production 7 social, 3 production can only be spent one way but the 7 social can be spent in myriad ways which we have been discussing the specifics of.
>>
No. 68630 ID: 76b151

>>68615
honestly I still disagree with any TW generation at this point.
>>
No. 68633 ID: f7a438

>>68630


I strongly disagree with your disagreement

everything costs TW we should get a fuckton of it
>>
No. 68634 ID: d6ef5d

>>68633
I strong disagree with your disagreement with his disagreement. :V

We can't afford to invest in production just because of the meta-reason that a few people are afraid of talking about ghosts later. We need to be able to cope with the problems that face us now- which means spending TW on things we can use.
>>
No. 68638 ID: cee89f

>>68633
i think he means upgrading generation.

>>68634
I strongly disagree with your disagreement with his disagreement with the other guy's disagreement. Not because I disagree, just because it's getting hard to say.

Fact is: A) we need social abilities NOW. B) we're gonna need generation LATER. C) We're gonna need ghosts to fulfill both of these.

There's really no way to get around eating more ghosts. Even if we get 1W/day generation now, the Lunars aren't going to let us stay another night. Akatrina will probably try to do whatever she's here to do before morning. Either way, defending ourselves properly means OMNOMNOM.

So let's stop wasting time. We can either A) put a complete freeze on spending until we get the ghosts (which has the added benefit of allowing us to buy upgrades as we need them) or B) buy our social upgrades, find ghosts to imprison for our generation upgrades, and release the ghosts when we have the TW.
>>
No. 68651 ID: 3dd384

The more I think about it, the more I realize I didn't really think through the implications of being able to un-eat ghosts.

There's a huge gap in my contact with this Quest. I stopped reading early in Chapter 2, and only came back very recently, when the final TW vote was going on. I was still very much carrying over the moral calculations from Chapter 1, where eating a ghost meant, probably, an end to their existence as a person. I didn't want that - still don't.

But, okay, if you can eat them, and then increase production capabilities, and then use the dividends to spit them back up... I can't see how that's any less moral than leaving them locked up in library crystals.

I mean, I'm still very much apprehensive about spending TW 100% on current needs, because if we get into that mode we'll never actually get around to making our TW production sustainable, and sooner or later we'll either have to split up with Peregrin for a while, or he'll run out of acceptable targets to feed us (if we have a better fate to offer a ghost than temporary use as a legend battery, the choice to use them as such becomes morally fraught again). If we want to be able to act autonomously, ramping up Will Generation is vital, and the longer we wait to do it the more effort we'll need to waste dealing with the troubles of today.

Buuuuut... I think I'm okay with chewing on ghosts now, provided there's no better option for what to do with them, and provided that we're laying the groundwork for a future where that well has run dry.

(BTW: Wordblood, my apologies for continuing this rehash argument. Just say the word and we can get back to deciding what to do about Hurty Green.)
>>
No. 68652 ID: 3dd384

>>68638
We do not need every last drop of TW to deal with this situation. Sure, I wouldn't have chosen quite this loadout - there's things I wanted *coughbondofunderstandingcough* and didn't get, too. But 7/10 of our TW are going to Social Combat stuff, so I'd say even if we don't spend the remaining 3 for further boosts, we'll be going into the inevitable rematch with a significant buff.

I think we'll be okay.
>>
No. 68653 ID: 76b151

>>68652
IMO we do need every drop of TW for our situation. Remember we aren't just facing a single opponant. We're facing 3. And these aren't newborns like ourselves. They have conviction that they are in the right and a heart's desire. We don't. All we have is a vague notion of being free which isn't enough. We were losing badly which was why we went to eat these souls and gain Kairosa in the first place. Placing some of the TW we gained aside for later is foolish.
>>
No. 68655 ID: 3dd384

>>68653
I made a long post, but then I realized I was sort of straying from the most important point.

If you had those 3TW back, what would you spend them on?
>>
No. 68656 ID: 76b151

Wordblood's World Reading 3.

That or Territoriality, Beauty and Bond of Understanding.

World Reading 3 allows us to attack an opponents weaker spots while the other hopefully lets us harden ourselves and do joint attacks \ defences with our vassal. With Beauty it also increases the amount of damage we do. Which isn't a bad thing.
>>
No. 68657 ID: 370c40

>>68652
I'm not sure you were paying attention to what happened last time. We were absolutely DESTROYED in social combat. The proposed upgrades will help, but I really really don't want to get forced into talking to Akatrina again without significantly more than that.
>>
No. 68660 ID: 47a120

>>68657
Last time we were destroyed because we tried arguing that the Dragon Shadow is PURE EVIL.
A retarded argument that goes against every fact we know.
We had horribly weak arguments, the opponent had ridiculously strong ones, we had absolutely no conviction, the opponent had massive conviction.

And we weren't destroyed we were slowly defeated. Because remember that every deva gets a turn to counter argue for us.
>>
No. 68661 ID: 370c40

>>68660
No, we were destroyed because Akatrina was throwing around numbers that were at least twice as big as ours, even without using any magic whatsoever. Askalaff even helped against the first attack, and between him and Wordblood it was still less than the damage her first attack did. It only took Akatrina two turns to get us as low as she did, and if she hadn't split her attack she would have got us on the second turn even despite the efforts of Wordblood/Askalaff. We ended up conceding anyways, but we can't choose the topic either. Akatrina can pick whatever dumb thing she wants to talk about and we can't really do anything about it because she has better stats. Things like good arguments help, but they aren't as powerful as magic. Which is my point, we aren't prepared to take her on even with the upgrades. So we need to eat some more ghosts and find a better strategy so that things can actually go halfway in our favor this time around.
>>
No. 68665 ID: 47a120

>>68661
Her numbers were big because of the reasons I provided. Some of those were multiplicative.
One's Heart desire for example applies a 2x multiplier to one's numbers.

Quality of argument does so matter, your assertion that she would be able to convince us of things that go against our beliefs with weak arguments because her numbers are bigger are unfounded.
>>
No. 68668 ID: 3dd384

>>68661
Honestly, I think finding a better strategy is the most important thing. That was the idea behind >>67836, although since then I've looked over Akatrina's overwhelming performance and realized that it wouldn't be quite sufficient.

First off: that pesky "sworn truth" bonus. The implication is that she's arguing something that she herself believes. But we don't actually know that - it may technically be true, but she may also still be deceptive within that technicality. World-Reading 2 and Seeing the Tongue Slip solve this. If she's being deceptive, she'll probably be arguing from Dickery and we'll be able to tell. If she's got ulterior motives to her argument, those will be laid bare as well. So the bonus should go away in a lot of the cases where not being convinced would actually threaten our independence.

Second: I think we had a Fear penalty when defending against her arguments. If that gets to be a problem, the Perspective of History can shut it down effortlessly (although it also makes Lord Soul counterarguments less effective due to factoring out Affection).

Third: the moment we actually involved Peregrin, things improved dramatically. He's allowed to use Charms to boost his arguments, and as such was able to attack on Akatrina's level (which, if you recall, none of our TW options really help us with). Via Voice in the Dark we can provide him with all the tactical data that Wordblood's charms are providing us, as well as suggesting arguments to him so that it doesn't look like he's just parroting everything we say (which would tip our hand). And via Wordblood's Blessing, we can Boost him if for whatever reason it looks like he's going to run out of Death Power before Wordblood runs out of Titan Power (or maybe even to Boost him without it being obvious, depending on how obvious Wordblood's Blessing is).

Finally: her attack stats are just higher than our defense stats. Wordblood's Blessing can help here, but honestly? We don't even need TW to fix it. Just ask Peregrin if he can spare a few books on debate and critical thinking, and we can easily supplement our social defense Competencies with a midnight snack. (He might enjoy observing the process, too - I don't recall him ever getting to see us eat a book!)

Again, this probably doesn't get us to parity. But it gets us close, plugs the most obvious holes, and lets us play to our strengths of information management and masterminding (like I was saying back in >>67836). And we've got unique advantages of our own (e.g. having two secret advisers ready to present an alternative, known-friendly perspective on everyone's arguments) to get us the rest of the way.
>>
No. 68669 ID: cee89f

>>68665
Any argument we pose is going to be bogged down by problems, the first being that negotiation is what Akatrina's exaltation /exists/ for. Unless I'm misremembering (and i'm going to go check on this as soon as I'm done), we were entirely unable to change topic from what Akatrina wanted it to be (pretty much forcing us to argue a 'retarded point'), despite the fact that the numbers used were without modifiers. So that means Akatrina is going to be the one to select the topic, and that would mean there is no reason to assume we'll be able to argue what we like.

The fact that Kairosa can heal us too is only going to take us so far if we can't do any damage on our own. Which we can't.

Not sure where you're getting the x2 for heart's desire, but i'll assume you're right. Even if we knew her heart's desire and avoided it, we'd do... what, 8 will damage, tops? (most damage i can remember is 2... *2 for the ordinary damage, 4, *2 for heart's desire direct hit, we get 8.) And that's without her magic. We only won that final conversation because Peregrin and Askalaff ganged up on her.

I'm going to vote we get the upgrades we've talked about, then find and devour the ghosts, buy generation for 1 will/day, and release the ghosts as soon as we have the will to spare.
>>
No. 68671 ID: cee89f

>>68669
>>/quest/454389
Okay, having checked, when we try to change the topic, we go Leadership and Inspiration. We get modifers for emotion and heroism, but I don't remember us getting anything to help with that.
>>
No. 68685 ID: 370c40

>>68665
>Quality of argument does so matter, your assertion that she would be able to convince us of things that go against our beliefs with weak arguments because her numbers are bigger are unfounded.

Quality of argument does matter, but again, not as much as literally centuries of experience in magical persuasion. I'm not sure exactly how old Akatrina is but when she's got years of experience to our one day we should be really careful about overestimating our abilities! And I wouldn't be so certain that her heart's desire has anything to do with The Dragon's Shadow. It could be something that never came up, and if she used it against us she could be throwing effective 28s instead of 14s at us. We shouldn't assume just because she works for the guy that her life revolves completely around him.

Also she's a social caste inverted Solar, so her Exaltation is literally designed to convince people of things that are false with weak(or strong) arguments. The only Exalts better at it would be the Infernals(Hell Heroes) of The Dragon's Shadow himself. And she can learn the same powers those guys use!
>>
No. 68691 ID: 6ab4d5

I agree that while we need better social tools, there is also a hard limit on how much it will help. We're not really purpose built for Social Combat to the same extent as a Moonshadow is.
>>
No. 68692 ID: 370c40

>>68691
Maybe not, but Wordblood sort of is!
>>
No. 68694 ID: 3dd384

A few points.

>>68669
>The fact that Kairosa can heal us too is only going to take us so far if we can't do any damage on our own. Which we can't.
None of the stuff we're buying would help with attacks. None of the stuff on the menu would have helped, except maybe World Reading 4 or a huge Beauty investment.

If we want to convince anyone else of stuff, we need an option other than throwing TW at it. I still think our best bet is to use Peregrin - he's allowed to use argumentative Charms, he's provably trustworthy, and we can collude with him without making it obvious that we're colluding with him.

>>68671
The good news here is that Inspiration is a Talent, and thus enhanceable with Moon Boost. (Bonus: it's not actually trying to convince someone of anything, so doing so is probably allowed under the terms of our pact with Akatrina.)
>>
No. 68697 ID: cee89f

>>68694
That was actually one of the biggest reasons for grabbing Beauty and World Reading, as I recall: see some mal/affections Akatrina has for better manipulation, and beauty to give both our attack and defense a boost.

I was arguing that having a second deva alone would not be enough, as the poster implied - we'd still need to invest in social abilities (probably even before we invest in generation)

Also, having looked back at that conversation, it only SEEMED like a slow defeat at the time. Akatrina played us like a harp. Two or three points and we were in a panic.
>>
No. 68698 ID: 370c40

>>68694
Even if that does let us use our Moon Boost to change topics, I don't see any reason Akatrina wouldn't be allowed to stop us by using her own Boost.
>>
No. 68749 ID: cbc67c
File 136288683648.png - (85.40KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis3.png )
68749

>Saulanna tail's color and eyes marker

"Yes. I know symbolism when I see it. Whatever it is, it is connected somehow to the Hero Soul. Kairosa and our Queen would both indeed be more connected to it than I am, though I still have more of a bond that way than would explain my immunity. This is... interesting."

>reflections of growth

"It might be significant that my wings grew larger while Kairosa remained unchanged; but, on the other hand, it might not. Language evolves over time, while Time itself is eternal, so it might simply be natural that I show changes more quickly. I have already changed a lot since I first awoke to this Age."

>don't you know? [declaration, promise or request]

"Not if it didn't know what it intended, itself. Or if it intended all of them."

>could that be you?
>part of you

"As I said: no. It's all about the Element, you understand? It's not made from what I am made of, or of anything related to it. How do I explain... if a Titan is like an orchestra playing a song, then I am a particular instrument. My nobles and my commoners would be like the melodies and the notes that I play. Whatever this is, it's a different instrument. It's not even the same type of instrument. I admit that for a moment it did look like me, as if it were trying to imitate my appearance; but even for the Dragon's Shadow, who has the particular ability to imitate others in his fashion, that would simply be like taking the music written for a harp and playing it on a saxophone. To extend the metaphor."

>related to the wyld taint
>the rage of the dying Titans
>an echo of their pain and anger
>taint left by fallen titans

"It's... possible."

"Curses are serious business, and death-curses truly dire. I never knew any Titans to really die, myself, but theoretically, if it happened... with a death by treachery, especially... yes, that would be a truly terrible Curse. Goodness. It was bad enough considering the tracks such metaphysical parricide would have left on samsara. Though I would have expected such a malediction to have been directed at the gods, rather than their instruments. Odd. But that would explain Kairosa's outburst and memory trouble. Hmm. Kairosa... she said three of this Hero Soul's incarnations had been in the war, one of which was destroyed. And that a later incarnation had the taste of the imprisoned Titans upon it. So even without a curse... If some malefic Titanic trace had been left on the Hero Soul, bent on vengeance, it would have exploited existing flaws - the gap left between the knowledge of Autochthon and Gaia. And if it were bent on corrupting or subverting the Soul's purpose, it would have done so by pushing, empowering certain facets of its identity past the others: throwing off the balance of powers. Moon Heroes... shapeshifters, graced through animal totems... could well become more beastial than intended, come to change shape too easily. With energy from the Wyld to put to use... Yes... this is looking very likely."

"But, if such a force lingered on our Hero Soul when our Titan powers began to grow...? We still aren't at one hundred percent efficiency with our soul consumption. The excess power might not all have been venting through our body's Soul Fire. An existing scrap of Titanic will-energy might absorb such power in passing, reacting to the same type of essence that birthed it, and use it to become more complete, to grow. It would be a feeble half-thing at first, like the weakest of gods, hardly intelligent, unable to consider anything besides its Purpose; it would seek to become whole, to change into something more stable, to become..."

"... to become a deva."

"Oh dear."


>get help
>someone who knows how to fix Hero Souls

"Autochthon or Gaia would be the best options. Gaia seems to have left the world, but we might be able to contact one of her Lords, the Dragons, if we were willing to brave the Elemental Poles. Sadly, the only ones with Dragons who are still awake are all rather hostile to beings of flesh and blood. Or of anything that isn't that particular element, really. The memories we've picked up are suggestive of Autochthon being somehow accessible, but almost on the other side of the world, and what we know is quite lacking. And... strange. I'm not sure he would be a very wise choice to ask for help in the first place. He is a machine, and a creator of machines, and he might see us as merely a device to be fixed. Or worse, as raw materials to be crafted. The gods surely can't help, or they would have done something already."

"Aside those choices... well... I don't know exactly how much help he could be, but... if the Dragon's Shadow is the Dragon's Shadow, close enough to the one I knew to have the same name, then his Ruler is
Elerele, the Reflection of What Darkness Sees, also known as the Black Mirror. And that deva has the particular ability to reveal things that are hidden, or denied, or... unpleasant. To demonstrate the truth that is not seen. At the very least, they could allow Saulanna and Kairosa to see what I see."
>>
No. 68751 ID: d6ef5d

All right, so it's an aspect of the great curse, becoming a deva from our leaking energy.

Do you think we can tolerate it as? Because I don't see how we could hope to counteract, remove, combat or help it at the moment.

Between Gaea and Auto, I'd prefer to try Gaea. We already have more than one in with her (connection to Luna, and possibly helping with the time dragon).
>>
No. 68752 ID: f2c20c

>>68749
So, our most basic of plans is to visit the Dragon's Shadow and get his help so that Saulanna and Kairosa can see the Curse, and with that done, we would be able to convince Saulanna to travel to one of the elemental poles to get help from one of Gaia's Lords. I expect the Dragon's Shadow would give us assistance so that we would be able to survive there.

ALTERNATIVELY, we can try to help the Curse. Feed it TW to make it complete, and part of us so that we can tame it, sortof? It is suffering, and I feel sorry for it. On the other hand, I am very very nervous about having the Curse become part of us. Wouldn't that cause Saulanna to seek revenge against the Gods? Or worse, go insane just like a Lunar would? We have seen that even at its current sub-deva level, it can affect Saulanna and Kairosa with its powers. Would it overpower Saulanna if we made it a full Deva, even if it had a low Soul Force?

One final option is... we could... try to kill it, once the others can see it. I don't really like that option. I'd rather make the effort to try to fix it.
>>
No. 68755 ID: f2c20c

Oh, and now we know two important things:

1) Eating souls is a bad idea. Passive generation is the way to go until we get this problem dealt with in some way.
2) Soul Fire should be mitigated as much as possible to lessen the growth of the Curse due to leakage. Or, would Kairosa's method for doing this even work? Or would it make things WORSE?
>>
No. 68756 ID: 370c40

>>68755
Would increasing Kairosa's Efficiency or Ease of Consumption reduce the level of leakage? If we're stuck with 1 additional TW a day we're pretty much screwed without a wayyyy better plan than we have.
>>
No. 68757 ID: cee89f

... It seems this thing is going to get stronger whenever we try and eat ghosts... That... is problematic. Especially since we'll basically HAVE to eat them at some point, unless we can somehow convince the Moon Heroes to leave us here for a few weeks without any social upgrades (doubtful).

Maybe before we go to eat the ghosts we could use what Will we have to up Kairosa's efficiency as much as possible, minimize this thing's threat?

>>68752
There are problems with making the Great Curse a deva.

1) It is deliberately hiding itself from Kairosa and Saulanna as much as it can. If it gets stronger it might just do the same to Wordblood, and then we're back to square 1. Only without help.

2) Devas all influence each other. Making this thing a full blown Lord Deva (and it would have to be a lord, since we can't make nobles or commoners yet) would make the great curse even more pronounced upon all of us. And the Great Curse is already a major problem for Exalted (aside from redeemed Abyssals/Infernals)

3) I'm probably missing something.

Wordblood: Three questions. One, would a higher soul force make it possible for Kairosa and Saulanna to throw off this mental influence?

Two, how likely is it that you'll lose your immunity before we can do anything about this creature?

Three, if we forced it to become a full-on Deva could we minimize any negative effects becoming a deva would have? I mean it would still be bad news, but would choosing how it grows be less damaging than allowing it to grow on it's own?
>>
No. 68758 ID: 49e805

If we get Saulanna moonsilver tattoos, would that keep the forming-deva-thing from influencing Saulanna-as-the-queen-soul, or just her body? Can we cut out this growing-deva, since it seems like it's going to be harmful?
>>
No. 68761 ID: d6ef5d

>There are problems with making the Great Curse a deva.
You say that as if we have a choice. It's already made itself into one, is the problem. It's certainly more than it once was.
>>
No. 68765 ID: cee89f

>>68761
The post I quoted suggest we HELP it become a deva.
>ALTERNATIVELY, we can try to help the Curse. Feed it TW to make it complete, and part of us so that we can tame it, sortof?
>>
No. 68766 ID: d6ef5d

>>68765
Yes, it does. Presumably based on the assumption that it is better to have some positive influence than to let it do what it will.

Your argument seemed to assume we had a choice in the matter, when the process seems to have already started- if not finished. It influences two of our other devas (one of which is the queen) and can provide upgrades. It is already here, man. The question isn't if we want it here, it's if we try to cure or include it, or excise or kill it.
>>
No. 68768 ID: 3bad4c

Wordblood, if it is what you say, could you make a guess at its Element and Purpose?

Is it conflicted because it's purpose is at odds with its environment? I can't imagine you being a target.
>>
No. 68769 ID: 77cb34

Now that's interesting.

What would its role be? What would its element be?

Although it's not likely to be what you'd call 'friendly,' I am in favor of trying to tame it just because of how much we could learn from keeping it around.
>>
No. 68771 ID: 76b151

Mmm, a deva that is the great curse... sounds powerful. Furthermore our entire existence is a threat to the gods and ultimately their heroes are going to come for us and the great curse touches every hero.

Wordblood do you think we could talk to it? The biggest problem is that we don't know what it will do in the future. How it will influence our soul. If we could determine that we could plan further.

As far as not eating, I'm afraid we have no choice. We NEED that power for what is coming. Remember we are a baby titan. Strong enough to attract powerful enemies, weak enough to be easily overwhelmed.
>>
No. 68776 ID: 9ddf68

Wordblood If you had to GUESS, What do you think this thing will do If it can become a full on deva. I ask this because you are the only one that has actually FELT this thing so you have the most knowledge on it. Also do you think we could try and get it on our side as in make it an ally or do you think this thing will only hurt us in the end and we should get rid of it sooner rather then later. Cause I am a little worried about trying to force this thing out, because if this thing is only just forming and can already take out two fully formed devas I would hate to give it a real reason to attack us but at the same time if this thing is just going to come after us no matter what then I believe it would be best to remove it before it can become even more powerful.
>>
No. 68778 ID: 7003a8

>>68749
You assume the gods know of this.
If anybody could contact Gaia, it would be Luna. If you want this corruption fixed before it grows in power and further secures its domination over Saulanna and Kairosa then Luna is the only option available.
>>
No. 68779 ID: 76b151

Approaching Luna about contacting Gaia is a pretty smart idea. Eventually we would have to either decide to tell her or not about our Titanic Nature. And if we do tell her it would be better sooner then later.

Honestly I'm of the opinion we should come clean with Luna about it before she hears it from another source.
>>
No. 68780 ID: f2c20c

>>68779
Better sooner than later? No, dude. Better later, after we've proven we're a force for good. If we do it before then, we wind up just hoping the Gods give us a chance. They might very well just decide to kill us, because we're too much of a risk sight-unseen.
>>
No. 68782 ID: 47a120

Titans can choose to change by spawning new devas and eating their existing ones until a shift occurs in their whole of being. So I see no reason (aside from its hiding) why we couldn't just omnomnom it.

Our options then are:
1. Do nothing - seems like a bad idea, I doubt it will give us a pass just because we are also a titan. Its a curse not a love letter.
2. Complete and tame it - It would be a deva with an unknown element whose purpose is to curse all the heroes, the taming would involve us differentiating ourselves from the heroes with our titanhood and making it a lordly deva whose purpose is to curse the other heroes. I cannot imagine a way for it to not majorly alter our personality in an unwanted direction.
3. Try to complete it in a way that alters its purpose - that would work IF we can do it, I am not sure we can.
4. Eat it - Seems like a best idea.

I think we should go for 4 and bring in peregrine in to help wordblood take it.
>>
No. 68784 ID: 47a120

>>68782
It occurs to me that more likely its ELEMENT is curse and its PURPOSE is revenge against the heroes.

Thus if we tame/alter it I see different levels of success:
Disaster: It maintains its purpose as revenge against heroes, considers us a hero, and becomes powerful enough a deva to hide from even WB. It will not assume command because that is not in its nature, rather it becomes a self destructive force within saulanna.

Failure: It maintains its purpose to curse heroes but doesn't view saulanna as one, instead saulanna's own personality is tainted with undesirable hate for heroes, she is not self destructive but she is destructive to the world.

Partial success: Its purpose is altered from revenge on the heroes to revenge on any who wrongs saulanna. It has the negative effect of making saulanna a vengeful person; something that is unhealthy for her. But it does not come with a baggage of desiring revenge against the heroes, rather only against those who slight saulanna in the future. How bad this is depends on the magnitude of vengefulness... will we explode at petty slights or only the worst sins?

Full success: There are many things we can do here... make it a deva of justice, or even better make it a curse eater whose purpose is to consume curses. (this would be incredibly beneficial not only in getting into the god's good graces but in stabilizing the world as a whole by removing the great curse from one exalt at a time... and perhaps removing the curses of the yozi's which make them so hostile and harmful... not to mention being the ultimate defense for saulanna against curses AND perhaps drawing power whenever someone utters a curse in our domain as if it was a prayer to us)
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No. 68785 ID: 1546a9

it seems to be in pain. I bet we can make friends with it if he help it. I mean, a deva can't go against its master, right? the worst that could happen would be that the new aspect Saulanna the titan gains changes her drastically personality-wise. at which point we could get rid of it or grow used to it.
>>
No. 68789 ID: 47a120

>>68785
>the worst that could happen would be that the new aspect Saulanna the titan gains changes her drastically personality-wise
That is a pretty bad worst that can happen. And while we have the capacity to undo the change, a drastically altered personally would choose not to do so.
>>
No. 68790 ID: 7003a8

>>68780
Saulanna is under attack right now, and it's subverting the thoughts of all her Devas besides Wordblood. We have to do something about that immediately; we can't wait to act. The only other option is to find an alternate means of resolving the issue.

Also, going to Luna with evidence that Titans placed a death curse on her children and asking for help to fix it would work rather well to prove loyalty.
Becoming a Titan and immediately revealing not only herself but also insidious and as-yet undiscovered sabotage by the Titans so that it could be fixed, knowing full well that it would set the gods against her?
Yea, that would go a long way towards proving Saulanna's not an evil mastermind.

>>68782
Yes, titans can choose to OMNOMNOM their devas. And this strange Deva has control of the Queen and half her nobles.
Going by ranking, it has the power to just decide who to eat.
Going by votes, it has the power to just decide who to eat.
This is all assuming it doesn't have the Soul Force of the Hero Soul it spawned from, which would effectively make it the king/queen by dint of being able to overpower everything else.

Either way, this line of thought it not fruitful.
>>
No. 68792 ID: 47a120

>>68790
1. So far it merely cloaked its existence not outright commanded, its not even a fully formed deva much less the highest SF deva. It is simply highly specialized and its specialty allows it to cloak itself.
2. By that logic we can't act against it, period.
3. Regardless of whether we try to tame it, rehabilitate it, modify it, or onnom it we must first subdue it; yes it is going to be difficult, but as difficult as it is it is actually the EASIEST of the above 4 courses of actions and it is not impossible as you posit, merely difficult.

Subduing it is something peregrin and WB working together could do. Saulanna and Keirosa would hopefully not be fully subverted but rather just unable to perceive it, and heck, once the fighting starts it may not be able to cloak itself anymore allowing them to make a snap decision of helping WB and Peregrin against an obvious invader. Worse case scenario they would fight on its side but that is a problem no matter what we try to do to it.

>>68785
If it can't go against us then what is it doing right now? Also, commoners and nobles might be too narrow minded and end up acting against the queen and nobles can be aggressive and hostile depending on their nature.

Autochton is called the crippled titan because his own devas are harming him; proving that yes, devas can go against their own titan. And furthermore, if Saulanna mishandles this and lets it become a lordy deva as is or with a failed attempt to reform it then she would also become crippled.
>>
No. 68794 ID: cee89f

>>68766
I assumed it wasn't done growing yet. In fact, that was part of the assumption of the original quote: "Feed it TW to make it complete"
>The question isn't if we want it here, it's if we try to cure or include it, or excise or kill it.
Uh... what?

So, f2c20c suggested that we could try and make it a deva to stabilize it in our favor, i pointed out there are problems with letting it become a deva (implying we should get rid of it if at all possible, preferably before it finishes forming), but we don't have a choice in the matter because it's not done yet? I... What?!

And no, I'm not trolling or playing devil's advocate again, I'm genuinely confused here. So... we can't excise and/or destroy it if it's already a deva, but you say that that is one option for us, but... wha?
>>
No. 68796 ID: d6ef5d

>>68794
All I was trying to say is it doesn't make much sense to consider the pros and cons of letting it become a deva, if it basically already is one.

I mean what do devas do? They influence one another. Greenie does that. They get upgraded. Greenie has done that. They provide possible powers and thoughts and upgrades to the gestalt. Greenie does that!

For all intents and purposes we've already had an unplanned deva.

>Get to Gaea through Luna.
We have another route, actually. We get to Gaea through Haht'hek. We fix her time dragon, and then get her help in assisting us with greenie. And hell, halping Gaea in a big way would certainly make Luna happy with us too. It's win-win-win!

The only downside is the time and effort it might take to pull off...
>>
No. 68798 ID: cee89f

>>68796
... Ah. Okay.

I and the quoted post were assuming that the thing had not yet become a deva, is the thing. Our two options as I see them are:
-Get rid of it
-Let/help it become a deva. (remember, the original posts were assuming that it isn't already one)

I was arguing that we shouldn't help it become a deva, and should just get rid of it asap.

>Haht'hek
Kairosa implied in her story that Haht'hek's body is keeping the world from being utterly and completely obliterated.

>With his last strength, he curls himself about the existence that remains once-made, and turns his body to a wall against the fire.

...Then again, Kairosa did say that a titan can force reality into the shape it wants and things "would still have happened - you just made the world pretend it didn't"... but if it were that simple wouldn't another titan (perhaps Gaia herself) have done it by now?
>>
No. 68802 ID: 47a120

We are a _long_ way from being able to quench the infinite fires the titans set to consume reality without taking permanent harm. Haht'hek is dying and resurrecting and dying again infinitely as his body regenerates constantly to shield reality from those infinite flames. I would say we would have to be much stronger then gaia, the strongest and healthiest titan there is; as gaia had to sacrifice one of her 7 lordly devas for this purpose.

>Feed it TW to make it complete
This sounds like a terrible idea. Using TW to make it complete while sculpting it into something that would want (ex: "full success" in >>68784 ) is completely different then just giving it TW to build itself up as it pleases.
If we want to make it into a useful and loyal deva (a tempting but riskier prospect then destroying it) then we should subdue it and then complete it on our terms.
>>
No. 68803 ID: 3bad4c

Having a deva that's designed to fight solar, lunar, dragon and sidereal heroes?
That's not a bad idea, as long as it's OTHER heroes.

My motivation in saying that is most of Saulanna's problems in the foreseeable future will probably include exalted heroes.
>>
No. 68804 ID: 3dd384

Let's not call it a Curse anymore. First, we were never sure the Great Curse as such exists for reals. Second, even if it does, this creature is more than just that ancient curse; there's... evidence that Green is already a Deva, either a Lord Deva, or a Noble Deva under our Hero Soul.

I'm going to reiterate my previous question: Wordblood, what's your experience with devas who are fundamentally cross-purposes to their King/Queen? Is that something that you saw a lot among natural-born Titans, or is it unusual? How do the Titans in question, as a whole, usually deal with it?

Also:
>>68749
We've talked a lot about the Dragon's Shadow lately. He seems like... quite a character. If we decide that the "thing to do" is to approach him for help with this, do you have any insights into how to deal with him in a way that's unlikely to get us in worse trouble than we're in now?

>>68796
>>68798
Haht'hek is dead, and unless there are Smurfs in Creation he's dead for keeps. This doesn't seem like a fruitful line of inquiry to me.
>>
No. 68806 ID: ce346f

Maybe Wordblood can convince the others now that he has the words to do so.

I see three major options.

First is going with the Death Heroes and talking with the Dragon's Shadow.

Second is going with the Moon Heroes, consulting with Luna, and going on a quest to Gaia to get the things altered. Probably try and get the Tattoos really quickly.

Third, which I recommend, talk to the other Devas, and go directly to consult with the Moon. (After suitable internal business.)
>>
No. 68808 ID: d6ef5d

>Haht'hek is dead for keeps.
>we would have to be much stronger then gaia
Not necessarily! We have somewhat of an advantage starting out, since we have our own time-deva to work with. And the solution doesn't have to be as simple as pulling him out of the fire, or putting the fire out. We could quite possibly pull something more subtle or complex to free the being while allowing the barrier to stay in place.

Honestly, with Kairosa on board, we're probably the being most likely to ever be able to do anything about the problem- even more so than gaia.

>Greenie
I would favor trying to help or heal it before trying to destroy or remove it. It was born of hate and pain and death and betrayal for the express purpose of wrecking the same. And now it's alive and confused and hurt / wants to hurt ect. It's a very messed up thing, and it's never had any kind of chance.

>tattoos
Were meant to fix a different problem. They stop the wyld taint from becoming a problem- they won't fix the problem Greenie may present.
>>
No. 68809 ID: 3dd384

>>68806
> Maybe Wordblood can convince the others now that he has the words to do so.
Literally the only thing we know Green to have done so far (other than a cryptic one-word utterance before vanishing) was to prevent Saulanna and Kairosa from perceiving it. There is no reason to believe that a second attempt would go any better, just because Wordblood had a better way to articulate the problem.
>>
No. 68811 ID: 370c40

>>68804
I don't know why you're saying he's dead for keeps. I mean, he's sort of still there, stopping things from unexisting. We could almost certainly do SOMETHING about it, we just don't have enough information to know what, and we're still just a speck of dust on the power scale compared to what we eventually will be. Remember, he died as a result of the war to imprison all the other Titans, EXCEPT Autobot, who Gaea might not have wanted anything to do with even if he wasn't in the process of dying. Other Titans weren't around to help Gaea out.
>>
No. 68812 ID: 7003a8

>>68806
Why would we even consider going with the other moon heroes?
Saulanna has a direct line to Luna. They do not.
>>
No. 68813 ID: bddf2b

>>68792
Sounds like the best of a bad set of options: bring in Peregrin ASAP and attack Green with intent to subdue, and to change its nature into something tolerable like a "breaker/subverter/healer of curses". (Could even serve as a version of that "mask" deva we were considering, if its theme becomes "subvert+curse".) Trouble with this plan is that Green is now hiding even from WB (as in vanishing from sight), so how can he attack?

Other posts mentioned going to Luna ASAP and spilling the beans on the Curse and the Titan business. I second this too, since it brings Luna extremely important info he/she doesn't already know about the Hero Souls. (Cue the sound of a godly hand smacking a forehead, echoing across Creation.) The trouble is that (1) have we even got the ability to contact Luna at the moment?, and (2) what if he/she turns out to <i>also</i> be cursed into not hearing when someone brings up the Curse?
>>
No. 68814 ID: d1efde

>>68749
What if this pseudo-devas manipulations aren't actually malicious? It feeds off of the excess energy released by Saulanna in the real world, but right now that energy is unavailable do to the timelock. What it tried to do with its manipulations was push Saulanna and Kairosa into finalizing the distribution of Titans Will, after which the timelock would be released so we could talk to Peregrine.

Now, at first I was thinking that maybe it had a stealth element and was so far into that element that just being acknowledged had somehow harmed it. But what if the "hurt" actually refers to the pseudo-devas half finished state? It was using the release of excess energy as a means to build itself, but when the timelock came into effect that energy flow was frozen and now it's stuck in an existence that it can't sustain on its own and it's, I don't know, starving to death?
>>
No. 68815 ID: cee89f

>>68812
For the next 3 days. And only for really basic stuff that we lost because of our memory wipe.
>>
No. 68816 ID: ec7d87

I haven't read all of this, but I'd just like to mention that going to see the Dragon's Shadow and ask it to do us a favour sounds like a SPECTACULARLY bad idea.
>>
No. 68817 ID: 710e38

My thoughts: IF we do decide to do the Peregrin&WB vs. Living Curse fight, we should 'loosen' the bond on him by telling him of the loophole that frees him. That way it won't get in the way for the fight if the curse thing tries to go 'You are bound to Saulanna, and thus, to ME! KILL WORDBLOOD!!'
We could use this as an odd way to out ourselves- ask the Lunars to help us, open up and let them in to fight that thing (They want to kick our butts, they can do it anyway.) explain where that thing came from as proof of the great curse, possibly ask Lunars about letting us stay long enough to get the TW to make a way to fix it for normal Lunars (and possibly Sun and other kinds of heros.) And from there, basically become Saulanna, Titan of Repairing or something!
Now, Here's the bad news, Peregrin mentioned the Dragon's up to something, and he DID make Red Sun Heros, he might be trying to do the 'fix the heros' thing as well, to prove himself worth keeping around. If we beat him to it...Well, it will leave him shut out in the netherworld. He won't like that! We could give him partial credit or something though I dunno if he'd be willing to accept sharing the spotlight...
>>
No. 68823 ID: 52d91f

Ok, before we do anything, I'd like to hear Wordblood's thoughts on just how bad inviting it to become a Deva would be.
>>
No. 68826 ID: 77cb34

Hmm, Curse seems like a logical Element for it to have, I have to wonder at its role though.

Mask of Curses? Sneak of Curses? Hatred of Curses?

We could've made a Feeder of Curses, that might've been interesting. Not to say I'm dissatisfied with the Feeder Soul we have, because she is SO CUTE.

Nonetheless, I'm not entirely certain that this thing is really even sentient yet! A Deva with a Soul Force of 1 won't really be, and we don't know how much TW it was able to siphon.
>>
No. 68828 ID: f2c20c

I think you guys are forgetting that its Element and Purpose somehow equate to bottling emotions and screening thoughts.
>>
No. 68829 ID: 76b151

A curse generally is something that limits you from your full potential or twists something you have so it harms instead of helps. A deva with control over a curse could theretically limit physical abilites like strength or speed and mental abilities such as emotions, thoughts and memories at will. It in essense cursed us to forget all mentions of it. And its ability would be a curse of emotional freedom.

As for its purpose its hard to say. Right now it seems to still be forming. Like Saulanna it might not yet have a purpose yet.
>>
No. 68831 ID: cee89f

Let's keep things in perspective.

Our first priority is getting Saulanna to realize this thing is in her head. Every other attempt we make to rat this thing out to anyone is going to be bogged down by the simple fact that Saulanna has no idea why we'd want to - for instance - tell Luna about the Great Curse she probably already knows about.

>>68826
Why are you giving it TWO elements and calling one of them a purpose?

>>68823
Agreed.

>>68828
The former seems in line (somewhat) with Limit from Exalted, and as for the latter, one thing that often makes a curse so damaging is that the one afflicted by it has no idea he/she is under the curse. Or it could be in line with it's purpose.

A bit of a stretch, maybe, but so is Wordblood's mist thing.

>>68817
That probably wouldn't work, in part because Saulanna was the original soul and in part because Wordblood would be a part of Saulanna if that were the case.
>>
No. 68833 ID: cda42c
File 136297840571.png - (83.17KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis4.png )
68833

>do you think we can tolerate it

"Devas cannot intentionally do serious harm to the greater Titan from which they spring. They may fight each other for dominance, and in the case of corrupted or debased examples they may even attempt to... uugh... more completely dominate their own progenitors and siblings. But even in that broken state, they act with the intent towards the greater purpose, as they perceive it. They may have strange ideas of what the greater purpose is or what they need to do to push towards it, especially if they're insane, but the intent remains."

"We are not gods, nor men, nor any individual creature. We are not individuals! To be a deva is to be, fundamentally, part of a higher order; I myself could not think, could not act, could not do anything without being connected to my Queen. And even then, when Kairosa was added, I became stronger and more coherent. In its feeble half-existence, as it exists now, this entity might, perhaps, be able to act against us in some manner. In order to become a deva, however, it must become part of us, and thus subject to us. In any case, I'm not sure it intended any harm. Even if it did, being able to block memories does not mean it has a vast range of mental influence. All it seems able to do for now is to suppress recollection. And suppress emotion, too, I suppose, if its upgrade was bought. But, then, that may be an example of it trying to help us."

"Besides, though I certainly sensed hostility from it, that hostility was not directed at us. In fact, almost quite the opposite. It felt... sorry."


>cure it
>kill it
>cut it out

"Nnh. I... rgh. Stop."

"Goodness. You're lucky I'm... understanding, by nature. I know where you're coming from. From an objective perspective, I can see how someone could consider trying to... eliminate this influence, in our inner world. But as a deva I have to tell you that I feel a strong instinctive aversion to just... just getting rid of another deva that is part of my greater self. It happens, and sometimes it must happen, sometimes for some Titans it is even natural and expected. If I recall, Gaia's Common devas kill and eat each other, in a mirror of the cycle of her Elements, and are reborn from each other. Even then, however, that's just Common devas; it doesn't happen to her Nobles or, samsara forbid, her Lords. And this, this is not natural, and it's... unpleasant to contemplate."

"And unnecessary. I don't like to think about such things, but there are ways to... alter devas. A deva's Element can be expanded, for example. A deva of Fate or Memory could become a deva of Time, or a deva of Blood could become a deva of Life, though such processes are... troublesome, and the deva will lose a lot of the fine detail of their powers. Or a Lord deva can be inverted; it's extremely rare, in my experience, and requires a very tricky set of circumstances. But, for example, a deva of Truth could become a deva of Deception, or vice versa."

"Given all that... I feel uncertain about altering it such. As a young Titan, Saulanna is heir to those who were betrayed, who were tortured, who were slain or imprisoned. She inherits a legacy of vengeance, pain and hatred regardless. Carrying a manifestation of that bequest feels... appropriate. Would it influence our minds, or is it being born from the way our minds already are? Perhaps samsara is at work."


>>68757
>Wordblood: Three questions. One, would a higher soul force make it possible for Kairosa and Saulanna to throw off this mental influence?

"Probably, but I don't know how much would be necessary."

>Two, how likely is it that you'll lose your immunity before we can do anything about this creature?

"I would say not likely, but I admit that's more of a feeling I have rather than a statement based on any certain knowledge."

>Three, if we forced it to become a full-on Deva could we minimize any negative effects becoming a deva would have? I mean it would still be bad news, but would choosing how it grows be less damaging than allowing it to grow on it's own?

"Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it. However, that is how I am inclined to solve most problems. Aside that, I would imagine that exerting some influence on how it grows is better than not doing so. And helping it to grow might soothe its pain, so there is the concern of compassion, as well. I'm sure it would nice to have something on our side that has particular powers against the gods and their servants, in any case."

"I may be biased.'"

>>
No. 68834 ID: d6ef5d

>Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it.
Well... how do we go about that? Is there a means by which we could feed, nurture, teach it? It seems like that could be hard to do at the moment, if the others can't even acknowledge it's existence, and it shys away from you.

Or do we just wait as it grows on it's own, and engage it when it is ready or able for that?
>>
No. 68835 ID: 49e805

Does it already have a set element and purpose, do you think? Or is that something it still needs to grow into?
>>
No. 68836 ID: 520816

If we go the route of trying to befriend it/shape it nonviolently, which is what WB is pushing, then that's tricky because Saulanna isn't currently even aware of it. The only way to do that seems to be to push her to buy that "emotion bottling" power, in the hopes that doing so will give her enough awareness of Green to then be able to raise Green's SF. We could put this spending off, what with all the other shopping plans*, but considering our theme so far of independence and learning, it'd be best to get this thing dealt with right now rather than wait.

*(Reminds me of the fan speculation about the progenitor of a certain acid-sea Titan: "Kimberly, the Shopper That Marched To the Mall.")
>>
No. 68838 ID: 9db85e

I'm all for pouring some extra energy into it. It could give us some interesting new tools to use in our upcoming situations, is another new friend to talk to, and would be another deva at our disposal without the painful process of splitting our soul again.

Lets go for it! We still have some TW left over.
>>
No. 68841 ID: 6630b7

the thing is practically made for masking our titanic presence. not only do I think we should keep it and raise it as Wu-Blu suggested, but I also think its presence is pretty much essential to our survival once we get bigger and more noticeable, but not strong enough to actually defend ourselves from the entire fucking world which eventually is bound to go after us in its entirety.
>>
No. 68846 ID: 3bad4c

(in my opinion)
>>/quest/499218
This understanding puts more weight on the idea that the shard can never attain sentience as a deva, which I find reassuring. Just because it hasn't owned by a titan before doesn't mean it's suddenly going to break and wake up.
That means it won't be able to hold a grudge if it's messed with, won't influence the devas as another deva would.
It's just a very sophisticated artefact machine/suit of metaphysical power armour.

>>68841
*smacks with figurative rolled-up newspaper*
Don't call him that!
>>
No. 68848 ID: 76b151

Well we did ask you're opinion on this. So the plan:

Continue impowering it so it grows sentient. Then talk to it. If need-be afterwords we can plan to alter it.

The problem is that Wordblood is the only one that can sense it so he would need to be the one to seize the TW will and gift it to it. He would have to do it without the Queen's knowledge until we can convince it not to hide.

I think I'm also going to back Wordblood on not destroying or eating this thing.

I think... we might have to wait. In order to get it to SF 3 We need at least 2 SF. And unless we eat another soul we need that SF for other things since we need the TW we have for the immediate threat of losing our independance.
>>
No. 68849 ID: 3dd384

>>68841
>the thing is practically made for masking our titanic presence
you beautiful genius pachyderm I hadn't even considered that

>>68834
>>68836
Here's a thought.

Right now, establishing communication with Green is limited to stuff we can do, and stuff Wordblood can do. But remember, we're about to buy a skill that allows Wordblood to gift another with greater skill at communication and/or helping others.

The next time the poor baby comes out of hiding, why not give it a little Boost to help it express its feelings? :)
>>
No. 68852 ID: f2c20c

>>68833
It seems like the simplest way to deal with this is to give it TW and level it up, and tame it. From what you've said it doesn't... appear to need attention from one of Gaia's Lords to function as part of our group in a beneficial manner. Except, it's not THAT simple, is it? Saulanna decides who gets TW, and this almost-deva is hiding from her. How will we give it what it needs? Will we just have to approach the issue with Saulanna in a way that makes it not feel the need to screen her thoughts to stay hidden?

On the bright side, hey, we've got a Stealth deva already!
>>
No. 68854 ID: 47a120

>But as a deva I have to tell you that I feel a strong instinctive aversion to just... just getting rid of another deva that is part of my greater self.
So it is a deva already!
Err, WB, can you tell if it is a he or a she?

>A deva's Element can be expanded. Or a Lord deva can be inverted.
>I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it.

Well then, we have a clear set of options. Although they are not entirely exclusive of each other. If talking fails an inversion/expansion can be used; or it can be talked into wanting to undergo inversion/expansion.

Also, this path being suggested by WB means we DO need to continue eating souls as it currently gets its sustenance from that.
However I think perhaps a better idea would be to have saulanna hand off 1TW to WB to use independently on a "surprise" for her. Use that to jump start the process and get talking ASAP.

Peregrin might still help with resisting it's hiding to get saulanna in on the conversation sooner which would be beneficial.

>As a young Titan, Saulanna is heir to those who were betrayed, who were tortured, who were slain or imprisoned.
Revenge is not the healthiest of mental states. And neither Autochton nor Gaia were, both are on the side of the gods.
Saulanna and K were never amongst those who suffered... but you were WB, in your previous incarnation.
Perhaps then you are its primary source; the two of them are a part of you and vice versa, but you are the deva most closely aligned with this being and hence why only you detect it.
>>
No. 68855 ID: 370c40

>>68852
I don't know why it would be a Stealth deva. That really doesn't seem to fit with what it is unless it took a LOT from the Hero Soul and not very much from anyone else. The only power it offered had to do with swallowing emotions and then letting them out later.
>>
No. 68856 ID: 9db85e

>>68855
Its certainly masking its own prrsence well enough.
>>
No. 68857 ID: 1c7e1b

If the Great Curse is becomming a deva, and it's first instinct is to feel hostility towards itself and the world due to regret, than we really should just keep spending TW and LET it evolve, become part of us.
It will become our ally, and turning the Curse to a Boon will be a powerful ally indeed.
>>
No. 68858 ID: 47a120

>>68857
Is it THE great curse, or just the portion of it on this specific exaltation?
If the former then changing it would mean the change automatically applies to all other exalts in creation.
>>
No. 68862 ID: 001618

>>68833
wait if you say this thing could be a reflection of Saulanna's heritage could this thing somehow reflect her hearts desire or something like that.
>>
No. 68864 ID: 7f2a1b

Could WB try to communicate with the green, with feelings instead of words?
>>
No. 68865 ID: ec7d87

Maybe we should try to help it become a Deva of Sorrow. Compassion for those wronged seems extremely appropriate to Saulanna's growing legend, and is a positive and productive way for it to grow that still makes sense with its current existence.
>>
No. 68866 ID: 3bad4c

>>68858
I don't think there's really any titan or titanic work that's omnipresent, otherwise there wouldn't be uncountable numbers of tiny gods and an entire bureaucracy to keep them in check.

I think a seed -> tree relationship is going on. You might scatter hundreds of seeds and if they're all apple seeds you'll get apple trees, not pear trees.

(besides, that would make a really poor story, and that's not something that's going to suddenly happen when Wordblood's around to notice)
>>
No. 68870 ID: d24baf

>>68841
o_o

You make a compelling point sir!

Honestly as dangerous as the situation we find ourselves in, we can use all the help we can get and this guy is perfect for the situation we find ourselves in.

Unfortunately we don't know the Soul Forces of the spirits we consumed before Kairosa came onto the scene, so we don't know how much TW our little Fluch here has been able to accrue. But it seems to be of animal intelligence (in keeping with Wordblood's description of a SF2 deva), and would be able to more meaningfully interact with us if we gave it another.

Plus, if we can befriend it, that's liable to be a bunch more Titan powers! Wordblood's never steered us wrong before; I say we go for it, and spend 2 TW on raising its Soul Force.
>>
No. 68873 ID: d24baf

Oh, and contemplate the cost of a power that can suppress pain (physical and emotional) as well, in case it's cheap.
>>
No. 68877 ID: 370c40

Well, if we WANT it to grow, there isn't much reason to avoid eating any more souls. So we still should look into those other ghosts. We have to get a better look at the village anyways if we want to try and build up something like an Affection or Heart's Desire that would help us in upcoming social combat.
>>
No. 68881 ID: 49e805

>>/quest/499543

I agree, people don't seem to understand what beauty does.

Let's start referring to it as the Omnipotent Social Attack Stat from now on.
>>
No. 68892 ID: b24894

If we're supposed to communicate, and teach, and learn from, and understand this other, deva-like creature, then I think we should know a little bit more about devas.

So, Wordblood, how does a deva decide if they're a boy or a girl? It seems like you're kind of attached to being a boy, and Kairosa is kind of attached to being a girl, and so is Deva Saulanna (Ricanya Rockblossom Jacquelina Hyena). But, aside from the latter, you don't seem to have any sexual parts.

Is it determined by the titan you came from? You came from a boy titan, and Kairosa came from a girl titan, so that's what you identify as? If so, do you think your existence might lead to Titan Saulanna being a little gender confused?
>>
No. 68893 ID: cee89f

(You would not believe me if I told you how many times I accidentally deleted this without posting it)

>>68833
>"Personally, I think the best option would be to let it become more intelligent, then help it realize what the right way of going about things is. Talk to it. However, that is how I am inclined to solve most problems.

Any ideas on how to communicate with it?

>Aside that, I would imagine that exerting some influence on how it grows is better than not doing so. And helping it to grow might soothe its pain, so there is the concern of compassion, as well.

In that case, our priority is to get Saulanna to a point where she can actually perceive this thing.

>>68866
... What about samsara/fate? (the maidens came out of nowhere but I'm pretty sure the Loom was originally built by titans) And we know Luna can look anywhere she pleases or she wouldn't have been right in front of us.

>>68854
"Revenge... the most worthless of causes."
...
What?

>>68881
Beauty gives a bonus to attack and defense. It's a powerful stat but it's not godlike =p

>>68852
What makes you say it's a stealth deva?

>>68877
...... Come to think of it...
Wordblood: Would Spectre (may we call it Spectre? I like Spectre) gain power when we spend Titan's Will any other way? Say, if we bought a dot of beauty, is there anything it would get from that? You said that it got power from inefficiencies in the process of creating TW from ghosts, but is there anything else that has that same inefficiency?
>>
No. 68899 ID: 9db85e

Gender and sex seems to be a primarily mortal system of identity, Saulana still thinks mostly like a mortal. (And all of us out here certainly do) as such, I'm fairly certain that the entire "gender affectation" element is only really introduced for her/our benefit. Kairosa seemed a little almost confused when we first asked her about it.

There's no reason our little curseling should have any particular gender yet. Maybe after it starts exhibiting some form of intelligence, but it should be gender neutral by default. Just like Wordblood and Kairosa are technically gender neutral.

Which kind of makes me wonder about Deva Saulana for that matter... technically her body should still be mostly human, with the biological junk that comes with that, but I wonder if it's going to keep on like that, or what other sorts of distortions we'll be seeing.


As far as for the new deva being stealth: I can see where they're coming from, it is certainly fairly good at hiding from Kairosa and Saulana at least.
>>
No. 68901 ID: d6ef5d

Considering Titan/Deva reproduction is completely different from the mortal version, gender is really only matters as an aspect of personal identity.
>>
No. 68902 ID: cee89f

>>68899
>it is certainly fairly good at hiding from Kairosa and Saulana at least.
Eh, I guess. But then, Wordblood hid himself from Luna a while back when he was in a similar state (only barely aware) so that might not mean anything.

Admittedly, the memory-wipe thing leads more in that direction, but bottling away emotions?
>>
No. 68907 ID: d1efde

>>68893
>Beauty gives a bonus to attack and defense. It's a powerful stat but it's not godlike =p

It's something we need given what we'll be up against. Akatrina can socially one shot us and we can't be sure Wordblood will always have a counterargument persuasive enough to undo all the damage. Have you even considered what would happen if Akatrina uses an argument Wordblood agrees with but Saulanna doesn't?
>>
No. 68908 ID: cee89f

>>68907
Oh, I agree we should get beauty, it's gonna be very useful. I just think you're overestimating it a little =p
>>
No. 68909 ID: d1efde

The pseudo-deva feeds off of excess energy released by Saulanna, so the moment we release the timelock it's going to get a decent meal out of the excess from the two ghosts we just ate when Saulanna bursts into soulfire.
>>
No. 68913 ID: 3dd384

Just to remind people: thanks to budding off a new soul and upgrading everyone to SF3, for the purposes of Will pool calculation we have an effective Soul Force of 9. HP-wise, we are already probably outclassing Akatrina, as crazy as it may seem.
>>
No. 68919 ID: 3dd384

>>68913
(Of course, having a bunch of HP but no Defense is still kind of sucky. I still think eating books about critical thinking and argumentation is a cheaper option than a manual Beauty upgrade, but it'd definitely help make each argument cut away at our Will less.)
>>
No. 68920 ID: 3dd384
File 136306205435.jpg - (8.23KB , 200x200 , _tmp.jpg )
68920

>>/quest/499533
>>/quest/499540
>>/quest/499578
What are you cones doing? Don't you remember how much effort Green was going to to keep Saulanna from hearing us tell her about it?

Forcing it to defend itself from detection again is not useful!
>>
No. 68922 ID: d6ef5d

I wouldn't make assumptions about Greenie's functional soul force at the moment, or about how he may or may not contribute to social battles. If it's not complete, it may not have a meaningful soul force. Or as long as it's withdrawn an hiding itself, its reserves may not contribute towards the greater gestalt.

...I wouldn't even assume we could feed it TW directly! (With both the commander and energy manager unable to percieve it, that might be hard to do). WB hasn't commented on how we would best make it grow, yet.
>>
No. 68924 ID: 77cb34

>>68920
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

From its own words and actions (well, word and action), it seems to be acting more instinctually than anything else; its nature is to conceal itself. Giving it some SF to act intelligently would make it more able to recognize that it doesn't need to do so, just as Wordblood is advanced enough to recognize that he wants to talk to it because his way of attacking problems is to talk to them.
>>
No. 68925 ID: a41e6f

Buy Swallow Your Passions and Only The Voice Matters.

Use both together.

Double Passions, Eat Passions. Double food for our new friend!
>>
No. 68926 ID: 47a120

>>68893
>"Revenge... the most worthless of causes."
>What?
Well, for starters you horribly misquoted me. For finishers, that post said a lot of all of it clear, if there is something SPECIFIC you don't understand then ask about it

>>68902
>Admittedly, the memory-wipe thing leads more in that direction, but bottling away emotions?
oooh... I bet its bottling away memories for later the same way it could bottle emotions and that those memories would return later (same as with the emotion bottle).
>>
No. 68927 ID: 49e805

Maybe it'll become a Revenge Deva whose element is Virtue?
>>
No. 68928 ID: cee89f

>>68926
No, I didn't misquote you because i wasn't quoting you. I was quoting something else entirely based on the fact your post focused on revenge, then making a joke at my own expense. Specifically, i was implying that i was getting odd looks for that statement.

It is a joke i have done before here and attempted to do again below.

>oooh... I bet its bottling away memories for later the same way it could bottle emotions and that those memories would return later (same as with the emotion bottle).

Ooooh, neat. Maybe it has a storage purpose and an emotions element?
.......
what?

>>68927
'Revenge' doesn't strike me as a purpose for a deva =/ and it would be one bad deva if it did.
>>
No. 68929 ID: f2c20c

>>68927
That's not related to concealment/hiding/manipulation/whatever it does.
>>
No. 68930 ID: 370c40

>>68927
I can see revenge as a purpose, but Virtue doesn't sound like the right element.
>>
No. 68931 ID: 4e4a2a

WordBlood, any idea what this 'curse' deva's element and purpose will be?
>>
No. 68940 ID: b24894

Purpose: Revenge; Element: Cursing

It goes with the language theme (big synergy with Wordblood!), helps with social combat, and fits the Great Curse theory, and everything!

"LISTEN UP YOU SHIT BATHING WINDOW LICKERS, YOU'VE GOT TEN SECONDS TO GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY HOUSE BEFORE I SHOVE MY FIST SO FAR UP YOUR ASS THAT I'LL HAVE TO BITCH-SLAP YOU TO CLAP MY HANDS"

I dunno if Greenoggoth would manifest as plain assertiveness, or as random fits of uncontrollable tourettes, but either way it would be entertaining.
>>
No. 68941 ID: ec7d87

I'd see some purpose more like... Encouraging, maybe? Something that embodies the part of us that knows what we're fighting for. As I said above, Sorrow would be a good element for that; the compassion for those wronged, born of regret for the lost Titans but growing beyond that.

This may not work!
>>
No. 68942 ID: 370c40

>>68941
I don't think we're talking about CHOOSING a purpose, more what purpose/element it already has.

Revenge seems like a definite possibility for its current purpose, and Curses are a maybe for element? Hard to say though. Ideally we would want something more focused than that and also preferably less detrimental to our future personality but we need to know more about influencing its growth to do anything about that.
>>
No. 68944 ID: 47a120

>>68942
If its purpose is too focused we COULD broaden it later on until it is useful.
>>
No. 68949 ID: c6319f

So far it's expressed regret, sorrow basically, at the state of the world and the actions that have lead to it. For the fate of the titans, specifically.

So for its Element it could be Curses, or Regret, or maybe even Revenge itself, I'm not getting that kind of vibe for its Purpose. But I'm not sure what it could be. Balance, maybe? The emotion bottle thing seems like a form of balance, seperate youself from them temporarily, but experience them more strongly later.

I'm rambling.
>>
No. 68950 ID: 3fdec7

I think that, if the Curse even has an element, then it would be "pain" or "hurting". Something like that.
But it's purpose if definately "revenge" or maybe just "an eye for an eye"-style equivilanece, but it has no idea what would equal the death of a titan, let alone several of them.
>>
No. 68951 ID: 888f37

Is it possible that it is this good at hiding and NOT have a purpose of Stealth or similar?
>>
No. 68952 ID: cfa8a1

Stop talking about feeding our power and will to a giant green monster and just do it already!
>>
No. 68953 ID: cee89f

>>68952
How?! The girl responsible for spending our Titan's Will doesn't even know it exists.
>>
No. 68954 ID: 47a120

>>68949
>Balance, maybe? The emotion bottle thing seems like a form of balance
Due to bottling up emotions for a late TIME I find it more likely to be a synergy between its own abilities and keirosa's time manipulation. Remember that WB and K can get abilities which mix their power with that of their fellow devas.
>>
No. 68956 ID: cfa8a1

You're overthinking it. It's on the list, we can totally buy it.

Here's my suggested TW budget:

Wordblood:
World Reading 2 (3tw)
Secret Subtext (1tw)
Seeing The Tongue Slip (1tw)
Comprehension (1tw)

Kairosa:
The Perspective of History(1tw)
Forked Path Oracle(1tw)
Borrowing from the Future(1tw)
Save The Moment(1tw)

Saulanna:
Only The Voice Matters(1tw)
Self Awareness(1tw)
Territoriality(1tw)

(?):
Swallow Your Passions
(1tw)

Then we have the good lady Rockblossom use Only the Voice Matters and Swallow Your Passions to feed our green friend before revealing his presence using her newfound Self Awareness.
>>
No. 68960 ID: 47a120

>>68956
>You're overthinking it. It's on the list, we can totally buy it.
No, you are misreading it, the discussion is about whether or not greenie's soulforce can be raised by saulanna while she is unaware of its existence.
Swallow your passion is not being discussed by anyone.

>Suggested spending
You are suggesting we spend 14 TW, we only have 10TW.
Out of which the compromise has already been reached to spend 3TW on generation and 7TW on preparation for the upcoming battle. Cut down your spending list to 7TW.

>>68881
>>68893
>Beauty
Even though its not the omnipotent social stat, it is a very useful stat to raise and is extremely cheap due to spend on.
>>
No. 68963 ID: 370c40

>>68951
Yes, absolutely. Like, a Darkness element deva could have stealth powers even if it had a purpose of like... Shooting Lasers. If it has an element or purpose appropriate enough to certain kinds of stealth, it could have some stealthy powers. So we shouldn't assume it's a Stealth deva until we know more about it. It could just be capable of certain types of hiding things that fit it thematically.
>>
No. 68964 ID: 9db85e

>>68956

I like and am willing to throw my support behind this budget.

Make it so, number one!
>>
No. 68966 ID: 65ddc7

I'm all for raising it, trying to understand it, bringing it into the fold. I'm around 99% certain it is an essential part of us, and we have already lost so fucking much of us when we started this whole thing.

The big question is how. I think that for right now, we have no chance at all without forcing it or wasting Titanic Will points. After we have upgraded Wordblood a bit though, maybe.
>>
No. 68967 ID: cfa8a1

Addendum, buy some Beauty.

@Wordblood:We need to have The Cult Talk at some point, and since you're the only one with any experience in this field...
>>
No. 68980 ID: 47a120

>>68964
WE DO NOT HAVE 14 TW!
its like you people don't even read my replies.
>>
No. 68981 ID: cee89f

>>68980
I know the feeling, mate. Know that I read yours, at least.

I'll try and type up a budget and give my explanation for it. Hopefully it won't suck.
>>
No. 68985 ID: 17f906

I apologize for being bad at addition.

We probably need to save some to teach our fair friend Peregrine, so... what's the plan?
>>
No. 68992 ID: cee89f

(Removed the running will count because it made the post unnecessarily massive)

10TW
-3w to generation (As MrTT has pointed out, this has already been decided since Kairosa, i believe, has devoted part of her Power into this particular bit of spending)

-2w World Reading (While originally I was going to say 3, we're on a tight budget and honestly probably don't really need to see mal/affections just yet. Aside from Peregrin and DS [which we can reasonably guess at] what could we say or do to manipulate those affections? However, if we know how important the conversation is to a person, we can reasonably guess at those affections and more easily be able to tell when we should or shouldn't try and persuade someone. [To continue the battle analogy, you don't charge the elite soldier with a minigun when you can also slit the throat of a guy in his pajamas drunk off of his ass])

-1w Seeing the Tongue slip (Not only do we find out a person's actual intent, we learn how willing they are to share it with us. We find out someone's goals, we can know what they want/need to hear and gain a little perspective on what arguments are working, why they are working and how well.)

-1w Forked Path Oracle (The power to tell which action will be most useful is an ability whose usefulness kinda speaks for itself. In fact, if I could only buy one ability it'd be this one.)

-1w Perspective of history (Wordblood panicked when we were hit with an emotion attack and spent his healing round trying to get rid of it. That's good enough reason for me to want emotion damage gone asap. I didn't select Swallow your Passion mainly because we have no idea what would control it, though that could work too i suppose.)

-1tw Beauty (Fanservice/seduction benefits aside, beauty gives an extra point of attack and defense. It's also very easy to explain away... though perhaps Saulanna should have a bath and bring in make-up so that it's easier to explain away [as mentioned earlier in the quest thread
>>/quest/488186
We've gone without a bath for a while anyway - did we even have one before going to bed?])

-1tw Bond of Understanding (Communicating with Peregrin [particularly from a distance] is something we seriously need both in and out of social combat - he's our best [and so far only] servant and all. However, in a conversation where he does not participate directly, he could also provide healing bonuses and information that we don't know that could strengthen our attacks.)

To borrow from a webcomic I like... Questions? Comments? Critique?
>>
No. 68993 ID: 49e805

>>68985
We can be economical and teach him the long way.
Get some books in here and we study skills the long way while Peregrin learns how to Speak the long way.

I think maybe we should improve Kairosa's Efficiency of Consumption instead of Generation right now, so when we eat the next ghost[s?] we can get more out of them. We don't even need to track them all down ourselves--we can tell Peregrin who they are and he can send the guard after them, perhaps.
>>
No. 68994 ID: f2c20c

>>68992
You're not including anything involving helping our almost-Deva.

HOWEVER, I think reevaluating the budget is premature at this point. Wordblood hasn't gotten back to us on how we would even spend TW to helping the almost-deva.
>>
No. 68996 ID: cee89f

>>68994
Saulanna doesn't know it even EXISTS and it'll be helped when we eat the ghosts.

>>68993
We've already devoted Titan Power to generation, though, so that would be a sunken cost. And Power isn't easy to come by in a Shadow(y?) land.
>>
No. 68998 ID: 47a120

>>68992
Sounds like a good plan.

Although... IIRC WB mentioned that improving physical stats would come from co-oping the lunar exaltation's shape-shifting ability.
if so then according to the posts after >>/quest/499218 The overwhelming consensus is to not fuck with it YET since we don't know any better and both methods we can guess at feel risky.
>>
No. 68999 ID: 370c40

>>68998
Wordblood can do the shapeshifting thing without us needing to actually commune with the Hero Soul. The Hero Soul makes it possible but we can do it without doing anything risky, I'm pretty sure.
>>
No. 69000 ID: 49e805

>>68992
I thought it would cost 3 will to get world reading to level 2? 1 will to level 1, 2 will to level 2?

One reason I think we should spend on efficiency instead of generation THIS spending session is because we are presumably going to eat another ghost before the day is up, and so we can put the TW from THAT consumption towards generation? So if we boost efficiency before eating the ghost, we'll get more TW out of the consumption--and we can even reclaim one point of TW from the efficiency upgrade when we're done eating.
>>
No. 69001 ID: 47a120

>>69000
that is an excellent point. Actually had we boosted efficiency after eating the first slaver and before eating the second we would have gotten an extra 1TW
>>
No. 69002 ID: cee89f

>>68998
That was for poking will at the Exaltation - Wordblood can still use our shapeshifting as normal.

>>69000
I thought so too - but i looked back at the list and it had it listed at 2. =/
... though in retrospect since 2 would still require one, that might've meant it required 3 anyway.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck D=
>>
No. 69003 ID: 370c40

>>69002
World Reading 2 would cost 3 total, yes, and World Reading 3 would cost 6 total. I still feel like that's going to be worth it eventually, just need to get some more TW.
>>
No. 69018 ID: cee89f

I have a plan.

-1w Beauty
Spending freeze.
Find ghosts.
-3w Efficiency
Eat ghosts.

Yes, I know we haven't spent anything, hear me out.

If it turns out we need an ability from the previous list, we can generate it instantly (yay, Time Deva). Beauty is the only one we've talked about that can be physically detected, and we need some more Will in any case for both generation and social abilities.
>>
No. 69022 ID: 370c40

>>69018
This is pretty sensible. If we end up eating at least 3 ghosts the upgrade pays for itself, and there is a decent chance we could have 4 or more.
>>
No. 69025 ID: e8ddaa

>>69022
That's assuming nothing goes awry in between. I'd rather we spend at least a bit more now, possibly still saving the 3 TW for efficiency, and be better prepared for any situation that might prevent us from upgrading.
>>
No. 69028 ID: cee89f

>>69025
Fair enough, we can do that too, but I doubt it'll be an issue. Our opponents are Exalted, not Titans - they're bound by the rules of space-time. We could make things pretty much instantly before with Wordblood and now we have an actual time deva to help us make stuff.
>>
No. 69030 ID: e8ddaa

>>69028
True, my paranoia may be getting the better of me. Though we never know what kind of curve balls might get tossed our way. heh
>>
No. 69050 ID: 9e0824

>>69018

A sound plan... for the next time when we get the opportunity to eat ghosts, but not right at the moment. Since we can, at that point, refund a bunch of 1 TW stuff to pay for the consumption efficiency, I don't see any point in doing it now, and there's very good reason not to (in that we need the TW elsewhere).
>>
No. 69052 ID: cee89f

>>69050
We don't spend will on the efficiency boost until after finding the ghosts.
>>69018
>Spending freeze.
>Find ghosts.
>-3w Efficiency
See?
>>
No. 69053 ID: cee89f

>>69052
To clarify: i mean this in response to
>there's very good reason not to (in that we need the TW elsewhere).
which implies we would spend the efficiency NOW, before we actually need it. But the whole point of this plan is to keep as much will as possible until we actually need to spend something on a social encounter (in which case the inability to gain efficiency is unavoidable, and we can spend it instantly) then to buy efficiency if possible, so we get max TW from the new ghosts.
>>
No. 69065 ID: 52d91f

Hrm. Any thoughts as to it's probable Element and/or Purpose? Also, if we wanted to help it become more than it is now, how might we do that? Can we even request a Soul Force upgrade for it, given that Saulana can't perceive it?
>>
No. 69067 ID: 47a120

>>69065
lots of thoughts on all aspects of your question by many people, read back on this very questdis and you will see them
>>
No. 69068 ID: 52d91f

Oh, yes. Wordblood, if you haven't already, see if you can find out some info on Chimeras. I know we're not going to turn into one, but I worry that our Green Friend might be one.

Or, well, have a similar grasp on sanity as one.

In which case giving it more power could be very dangerous.
>>
No. 69071 ID: 47a120

>>69053
I am shocked he had to explain something so obvious.

However we already have the compromise of spending 3 out of the 10 on economy and the ghost consuming efficiency you suggest pays for itself.
The way I see it we should spend the 3TW to up generation now (time would work for us then) and do a spending freeze and go hunt ghosts.

If and when we find ghosts, AFTER we capture them and determine we are willing to consume them but BEFORE eating then spend 3TW out of the freeze on efficiency which would pay for itself when eating them giving us essentially free extra TW.

Plan:
3TW Power Generation - time based so do it now,
1TW upgrade beauty - cannot be done inconspicuously during SocialKombat AND takes 10 minutes to apply (most TW expenditures are instant and unnoticeable from outside)
spending freeze (6TW remain)

The other 6TW IS reserved for social spending but rather then argue forever we simply go hunting those other slavers.
If we fail to find the slavers or get waylaid by the lunars/akatrianna then spend the extra 6TW on social.
If we catch them upgrade efficiency of consumption (borrowed from the 6TW SK reserve) because it will pay for itself within seconds (as we immediately consume the ghosts).
Eating them would also help with greenie according to WB
>>
No. 69075 ID: cee89f

>>69071
>I am shocked he had to explain something so obvious.
It's the internet. You get used to it. Especially when you're used to poorly communicating your ideas.

>However we already have the compromise of spending 3 out of the 10 on economy and the ghost consuming efficiency you suggest pays for itself.
Ah... right. I guess I either forgot or figured that it would keep until we got the ghosts, but alright, we can spend it now.

>>69068
Wordblood has said that Devas are physically incapable of working against the whole of the titan. As long as it's not the King/Queen deva we should be fine.

>>/quest/500123
"... She... stabilized her caste... on her own? ...Okay, I could ALMOST believe it if Dragon's Shadow had done it but give me a break here! She's been a Lunar for all of a day, tops, and she solves a problem that has stumped Lunar elders and LUNA HERSELF for millennia?! That's bullshit!!" Extra points if the Lunar's totem animal is a bull.

Wordblood has stated that we'll likely be immune to the wild taint with time anyway, so if I understand how that works we're basically already stabilized into the shifting moon caste.
>>
No. 69079 ID: 49e805

>>69075
Why Shifting Moon caste?
>>
No. 69082 ID: 42ace1

>>69075
>Wordblood has said that Devas are physically incapable of working against the whole of the titan. As long as it's not the King/Queen deva we should be fine.
I don't think the worry is that Greenie would hurt Saulanna-the-Titan, but rather that it would hurt Saulanna-the-Queen or one of the other Devas.
>>
No. 69085 ID: 47a120

>>69075
>"... She... stabilized her caste... on her own?
>BS
I agree that is a ridiculously stupid thing to claim...

But it does give me an idea... the caste tattoos are a form of language and as such WB can grant us the ability to read/write them. We could thus create fake tattoos, the lunars tend to be loners so it would be an easy sell if we avoid those two and disappear for some time.
>>
No. 69087 ID: 47a120

>>69082
We were explicitly told devas can war with each other.
Also even if he doesn't, I seriously doubt the "can't hurt us" extends to vague hurts like making us stupid, insane, emotionally unstable, or engage in self destructive interaction with others due to the process of personality bleed-over of members of the gestalt.
>>
No. 69088 ID: cee89f

>>69082
1) The two at the moment aren't all that different.

2) I mean that Kairosa, Wordblood and Saulanna can... "out-vote" the deva, for lack of a better term.

3) Wordblood also implied that Lordly devas harming each other (on purpose) was impossible.

4) To be perfectly frank, if it becomes that big of an issue we can eat it.

>>69079
This goes out the window if we have to lock it ourselves, but Wordblood implied we'd just be immune, period. So we're assuming that nothing will need to be changed.

For a casteless Lunar:
-Our caste mark shifts with the moon
-Our power level changes with the moon's phases

But as a Titan, the wyld taint is neutralized on it's own.

Thus, Shifting Moon caste.

(I would like to reiterate that I don't know all that much about exalted and may very well have screwed something up somewhere)

>>69085
That was actually meant to be a joke. =P

>>69087
Actually, Wordblood states that even for Gaia, 'war between devas' doesn't extend beyond her commoners. And in fact that Lordly war would be insane.
>>
No. 69091 ID: 9f5b78

>>69088
>(I would like to reiterate that I don't know all that much about exalted and may very well have screwed something up somewhere)

Changing Moon is actually the name of one of the Lunar castes, and one of their nicknames is Children of the Shifting Moon, so calling it Shifting Moon Caste is... confusing.

She's Casteless, just without the issues.
>>
No. 69100 ID: afd9ad
File 136339606944.png - (80.20KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis5.png )
69100

>So how do we help it grow?

"Unfortunately, that is precisely what I don't know how to do! Neither my Queen or Kairosa are aware enough of the thing to pass Titan's Will to it - attempting to make them aware would only pressure it into stalling their memories again, or whatever it is that it's doing exactly. And even if I were given some Will to do as I like with, I myself seem to be the one this entity retreats from most desperately. I tried to reach out to it before, but it slipped away. If I were stronger, or it were more solid, I could do better; but I still cannot force it to accept anything from me."

"Purchasing the ability that it seems to be offering might help solidify its nature as a deva, but I am not yet sure harm might not come of it. I did say that devas do not attempt to harm their progenitors or siblings, but I should also repeat, and emphasize, that this only means that they do not intend harm. Just as there are humans who have befriended wild beasts, and suffered for it when their pet got too playful or protective, so too am I afraid that the fact that it wants to help us (if indeed it does) does not mean that it's wise to give it free reign. Even an intelligent and well-meaning deva like Kairosa needs a little guidance, so how much moreso this strange creature, born an instrument of vengeance and madness?"

"Aside that, either go to the Dragon's Shadow for help, or simply wait and let it develop by itself."


>Er, WB, can you tell if it is a he or a she?

"No. It isn't stable enough to have such an identity, regardless. Given how amorphous it seemed to be, it might well be neither, or both. Or something else. There have been some very strange devas, through history."

>how does a deva decide if they're a boy or a girl?

"It's just... whatever seems more appropriate. Why do I have red eyes? Why am I a dragon? Why does Kairosa have a mask, or curling horns? Spirit beings like devas and gods are formed through the symbolic resonances of samsara. If you wanted to be indelicate, you could talk about how I, as an aide, have themes of reaching out to others, and through communication, of reaching into others, of exploring and leaving something of myself behind. There's a certain... erm, penetrative quality, albeit a beneficent one. Similarly, Kairosa as a Feeding soul has... receptive qualities, of taking things into herself, and transforming them, and producing something else. I don't have to spell it out, do I? There are other reasons, other little metaphorical shades and suggestions that add up on top of each other. There have also been plenty of gods and devas who had no sexual identity, or who identified themselves as multigendered. Luna herself, for example. She's typically referred to as female, but only for linguistic convenience. She's a shapeshifter. One of the forms she's most fond of is that of a heavily pregnant young man. This is mythology you're dealing with, my friends!"

"I don't think I know any Titan whose devas were all male or all female. Oh, er, except Cytherea, but... hm, well. If you wanted to be technical, Titans are multisexed, or the question is simply not applicable, but as creators and progenitors it is not appropriate to refer to us as a sexless "it". A city or a forest or a mountain, none of these are male or female. But sometimes people are struck by some quality of the things and use one set of pronouns or the other because they feel right, and all the moreso when these things are living, personable entities. And we do engage in the act, in our own ways. It's not like we actually biologically reproduce; sex for us is merely for intimacy and recreation, though involving mortal creatures can produce various classes of demigods and hybrids."


>other ways we can let it gain power

"Sad to say, but I can't think of anything in particular."

>info on Chimeras

"I'm afraid the souls we've absorbed didn't know much about Chimeras, beyond "sometimes Moon Heroes are crazy murder monsters". I suspect the Moon Heroes themselves have tried to keep the details a secret."

"So, now... I'm afraid I can't think of anything more to say in regards our green friend. The decision on the methods presented, or whether to just wait, I leave to you. I think I should return to my place."

>>
No. 69101 ID: cee89f

Wordblood: What do you think of the plan outlined above? (Short version: we buy beauty because it's noticeable and the generation that Power has already been spent towards, freeze spending until we find the ghosts, and buy efficiency RIGHT before eating the ghosts.)

>It's just... whatever seems more appropriate. Why do I have red eyes? Why am I a dragon? Why does Kairosa have a mask, or curling horns?

Because you're closely tied to blood (hence the name), because Oramus is shaped that way (you told us that), because she was influenced by a raccoon-totem hero soul, and because curling horns influence the appearance of one's silhouette but are compact enough to not look overtly goofy.

... What?
>>
No. 69102 ID: 9ddf68

I'm still a little hesitant to go straight to the Dragon's Shadow because even if he has reformed himself into a better person he still seems to have a bit of a nasty reputation and his former reputation was that of a trickster so for all we know he simply changed himself as a trick for some reason, but at the same time I'm a little worried if we take the wait and see approach our green friend will become a real threat. I think we could all make a better decision on what to do next after we get back to the real world and have our second round of social combat.
>>
No. 69103 ID: d6ef5d

>buy power, or let it grow
I'm kind of more inclined to let it develop for now, and just try and keep an eye on it.

>I think I should return to my place.
Yeah, I think we've exhausted our options here. thanks, Wordblood. We'll see you on the other side.
>>
No. 69105 ID: 60fee2

>>69100
Random question. Can we voices turned into a Deva?
>>
No. 69107 ID: 47a120

>>69101
>Why red eyes, etc
I believe he was being rhetorical there, as he segued from that to giving examples of metaphor and euphemism.

>other ways we can let it gain power
>"Sad to say, but I can't think of anything in particular."
Well now, perhaps we can experiment. You say it has fed on the scraps that come about via the inefficiency of Kairosa? Then perhaps having her be intentionally inefficient could draw it? Leaking energy for it to feed on? It might also attract it.

If Saullan or Kairosa ask for explanation on why to be inefficient you could suggest it is going to be a surprise.

Alternatively... we could perhaps focus on raising SF. WB only began noticing it when his SF was raised from 2 to 3 and it is well known that SF has significant impact on resisting mental effects. Perhaps if we focus on pumping up SF rather then Social Kombat we would be able to get Saulanna or K to notice it.
>>
No. 69108 ID: cee89f

>>69106
>I believe he was being rhetorical there, as he segued from that to giving examples of metaphor and euphemism.
I'm well aware =p hence the '...what?' implying that i was getting weird looks for that.

>Perhaps if we focus on pumping up SF rather then Social Kombat we would be able to get Saulanna or K to notice it.
Wordblood agreed with this sentiment when i brought it up, but stipulated that we had no way of knowing how high we'd need to bring it.

Even then, we'd need to eat ghosts to get such a soul force in any reasonable amount of time, thus giving it more power.
>>
No. 69114 ID: f2c20c

>>69100
The longer we wait to let it develop, the more problems it might cause by trying to help and not being wise enough to know the consequences. I'm convinced we need to see the Dragon's Shadow, now. At the very least, it will be a grand adventure... and we were going to meet him eventually, weren't we?

This just means we have to lose gracefully to Akatrina. Remember, if we give up early, we are less convinced of the topic at hand than if we outright lose.

Oh, and that little game mechanics thing Kairosa was talking about before- we should ask Luna about that, so that we don't mysteriously find out about it from nowhere.
>>
No. 69117 ID: 77cb34

Oh my, this does indeed add a new dimension to our choice.

The Lunars want to help us grow, but they're ignorant, and the best help they have on offer is something that will only stunt our development.

The Dragon's Shadow, by contrast, is not ignorant. It wouldn't surprise me to find out he knows exactly what we need and how to provide it. The question is the price we'd pay for his assistance.

I'm sure we can figure something else out, though. We are brilliant after all. Well, as a whole, anyway.
>>
No. 69118 ID: 9db85e

>>69114
I like this option.

We don't need to fly, we don't have real wings yet anyways. We just need to fall with style

What would be most awesome would be if we'd be able to actually convince the Lunars to come with us on our adventure. We don't need to do the actual convincing, just make as if we need their help, having been persuaded to follow Akatrina into the lions den.

We don't NEED the strength to overpower the opposition, we just need to be sneaky and manipulative.

We're an intelligence type, that shouldn't be too hard.
>>
No. 69120 ID: f2c20c

>>69118
Manipulating the heroes to give us an escort there? That sounds... interesting. The only problem with it is that we'd need some sort of private audience with the Dragon's Shadow, and I'm not sure what excuse we could come up with to do that.

Then again DS might come up with one for us.
>>
No. 69123 ID: b24894

Thanks, Wordblood, for the information about deva gender identity! I enjoy getting the benefit of your experience on that kind of thing. That's a neat factoid about Cytherea, of course. It seems every Titan ends up having *something* non-standard about them, among those few traits that could be considered standard among Titans. If you have any more time, to follow this line of education, I've got two follow-up queries. Were there ever any Titans, back in your day, who had a King or Queen soul with a gender different from their own, overall, titanic gender? And, who set up the male/female genders, and/or their connotations? The Titans are sort of the eldest creatures around, and they have them. And it was important enough to enforce all the ways down from gods, to humans, even to animals. So, I assume someone had to do something to make those two ideas so strong and pervasive.
>>
No. 69125 ID: 62850e

>>69100
i am sorry, Wordblood and your council is invaluable, but i do not trust that THING.
it is your nature to try to talk with it, and as a deva you are probably compelled to try and help it, but we are not bound to these laws. we need to expel it before it changes us in the direction of madness.
we need you to either find a way for the other two to experience it through your communication powers or assault it directly since you're the only one that can. leaving it be is not a good option at all.
>>
No. 69129 ID: 370c40

>>69114
Yielding the topic is actually determined by a skill challenge. One we will automatically lose to Akatrina. Losing gracefully is something we actually can't do unless we get an improvement to our associated competencies somehow.

I don't know why we would want to LOSE anyways. We could win and still go to visit him. We just have to make that part of our strategy.
>>
No. 69131 ID: 52d91f

>>69085
Given that Moon Hero Castes change with the phase of the moon, all we would need to do to prove it is demonstrate that our Caste mark isn't the same as the Moon's phase.
>>
No. 69133 ID: cee89f

>>69129
Agreed. We do NOT want to lose social combat if we can avoid it.

>>69131
A) If the caste marks ALL change with the phase of the moon (and i'm pretty sure they don't) how would we get it to change on it's own?

B) Planning to do that in one night, are ya? During a period in which two of the three castes display correctly?
>>
No. 69135 ID: f2c20c

>>69129
We've yielded once already! We don't automatically lose.
>>
No. 69136 ID: 370c40

>>69135
We lost the skill challenge. And yes, basically we do lose. We don't salvage much by yielding the topic if we lose the skill challenge.
>>
No. 69137 ID: cee89f

>>69135
If you'll recall, when we yielded, we basically ended up agreeing with her anyway (Topic was "The dragon's shadow ain't so bad", we ended up admitting such) because our yield was uncontrolled.

>>69136
What he said.
>>
No. 69138 ID: 49e805

Let's aim to WIN and keep our independence, so that if we do decide to go to the dragon's shadow, it's on our terms and in our own time.

At least a week, to give us time to up Kairosa's generation to 4/day; work on gaining intimacies for what's OURS; track down slavers and maybe eat them; learn things by reading; teach Peregrin to Speak so he's properly our vassal...thing like that. Get ourselves stablized and centered, y'know?
>>
No. 69141 ID: 77cb34

Yielding the topic was a partial defeat. We became Ambivalent to the Dragon's Shadow (don't like him, don't hate him).

Presumably if we had been convinced fully we would have wound up thinking positively of him, so there is a significant difference between getting beaten senseless and quitting the field with serious injuries so to speak.

Regardless, the idea of getting the Moon Heroes to provide escort to the Dragon is a gigantic mess waiting to happen and will almost certainly result in violence somewhere.

So naturally I'm all in favor of it, because it sounds exciting, and unexpected enough to throw them all through a loop.
>>
No. 69142 ID: 8b0f78

Hmm... I say we accept this shadowy deva to some degree. We won't be secure about it until we understand it properly, but if we don't resist it aggressively we should be able to bring it closer to being a true ally. Assuming it isn't already. Maybe we should have Wordblood try to make peace with it, somehow?
>>
No. 69143 ID: f2c20c

>>69136
Ugh, great. Let's aim to win Yields at the least, then.
>>
No. 69149 ID: 76b151

Err you are aware the to yield literally means to concede defeat right? You basically give up whatever stance you are protecting and grant them the win on it.
>>
No. 69152 ID: ea10ca

So do we post votes on what to do with Greenie here on in the main thread?

Well anyway, I think the best course of action to let it sip on the leaked power and grow by itself - just keep an eye on it.

It's upgrade is to be judged only on it's own practicality - don't rush for it now.
>>
No. 69154 ID: 9db85e

>>69149
There's an art to it though. Yielding about the right thing in the right manner is a lot more beneficial than actually losing, and much more likely than winning flat out.

Also, one of our competencies is Expert Deception. This should give us a decent chance of getting them to think we think something that we don't actually think.
>>
No. 69161 ID: 3fc386

Wait. before you go: What are we? We influence Saulanna on an almost subconscious level yet you and Kairosa can interact with us more directly. Luna said she might have opened Saulanna up a little too much and "Something Else" might be making itself heard...
>>
No. 69163 ID: cee89f

>>69161
It's implied that we're the Voices of the Past and that the Something Else was Wordblood. I presume we have so much influence on her because her identity was wiped so completely shortly before we were added.

...

Stillll would like a definitive answer on this, honestly.
>>
No. 69179 ID: d04875

I'm thinking that Saulanna already is a full fledged titan, if a weak one, and we are part of the collective of lesser souls that advise her.

If so, Peregrin would probably know something about how we got here, but he probably hasn't said anything because if he has no evidence of us being there, it would be rude to imply that Saulanna isn't doing her own thinking
>>
No. 69190 ID: 47a120

For question on what we are see:
>>/questarch/88264
>>/questarch/88270

>>69179
It is quite likely that voices of the past have been integrated into saulanna as you describe. After all, greenie grew spontanously.
>>
No. 69191 ID: cee89f

>>69190
... Am i the only one for whom these links won't open?
>>
No. 69192 ID: d6ef5d

They open just fine for me.

He's just pointing to the first two posts in thread 1 anyways.
>>
No. 69199 ID: 47a120

>>69191
On IE, no problems
On Chrome, disappearing links
On FF, sometimes gives error instead of opening, reload page and try again.
>>
No. 69202 ID: c7b0d3

>>69199

your FF, maybe. I never got a such error with my combination of plugins.
>>
No. 69204 ID: 9ddf68

>>69199
yeah with chrome the first time the links were just colored text, works now though
>>
No. 69205 ID: cee89f

>>69199
>>69202
My FF did it too. They're working fine now. Which is odd, you'd think it'd be all or nothing.
>>
No. 69229 ID: 3d20f2
File 136382847789.png - (51.24KB , 400x500 , wbtalkingdis6.png )
69229

>>69101
>What do you think of [buying beauty and Generation and then saving Titan's Will to buy efficiency before consuming ghosts]

"Efficiency of Consumption is a tricky thing to judge. Regardless of the level you raise it to, you can get no more Will from a soul than twice its Soul Force. So, high levels of Efficiency are useful only if you plan to target the most powerful souls, especially considering that it costs more each time you purchase it. How far you want to take it is up to you."

>Can we voices be turned into a Deva
>What are we?

"I don't know. Influence from the Hero Soul's past incarnations? Scraps of Saulanna's previous personality? The whispers of little gods, of fallen Titans, of Fae half-souls trapped in the world at its creation, pieces of dead spirits cast on the breeze, the shinma themselves? The voices of all the lesser devas we will have, echoing from the future? A symptom of insanity? A representation of my Queen's intelligence? Maybe several things. Maybe something I have not considered."

"I'm only permitted to bend the fourth wall so much, you know."


>being intentionally inefficient

"Well, you could, but it's only absorbing a fraction of the wastage. You'd be losing much more than you gain. We can't really afford to be without any Will that we can get."

"Now, since that seems to be it, I'll be going back. I'll meet you there."

>>
No. 69231 ID: 5d121c

i-it's not like i wanted the unending fantasy-morality discussion to go away or a-anything

h-honest
>>
No. 69232 ID: cee89f

>>69229
I like the 'insanity' defense. No rational human mind could've created me, after all.

>The fourth wall
*GASP*
>>
No. 69234 ID: 2595b0

I got 50 bucks on us being pure concentrated Awesome.
>>
No. 69236 ID: cee89f

>>69234
I'll take that bet and raise you: 60 that we're representative of insanity.
>>
No. 69237 ID: 47a120

>>69236
How are those two not the same thing?
>>
No. 69238 ID: f2c20c

C'mon guys. We are the Voices of the Past. We're probably "Fae half-souls trapped in the world at its creation". That's the only explanation he presented that has to do with the past.
>>
No. 69246 ID: cee89f

>>69237
-Shush! I'm about to win 60 bucks here!-

>>69238
"Voices of the Past" most likely referred to Saulanna's past lives. And if we WERE that, Wordblood would've been able to tell for certain, especially while bending the fourth wall.
>>
No. 69249 ID: 3dd384

Wait, hold up.

Isn't Akatrina gonna notice that all of a sudden we're prettier?

How's she gonna interpret that?
>>
No. 69250 ID: 2595b0

>>69246

or Kairosa, if she could hear us. she's tasted Saulanna's past lives anyway.

huh. I wonder if there is a way for her to hear us like Wu-Blu or take commands from us like Saul.
>>
No. 69253 ID: f2c20c

>>69249
She could just assume we cleaned ourselves up. Which we should do anyway.
>>
No. 69256 ID: cee89f

>>69250
Kai's been beyond the fourth wall, but Wordblood had to bring her. Every other time I can think of, she seems to interpret what we ask as Saulanna herself.

>>69249
This has been brought up before - it should appear to be the equivalent of cleaning ourselves up (something we should do anyway) so it'll be strange but not suspicious.

>Wu-Blu
........
>>
No. 69257 ID: d6ef5d

>a guild of thieves, only they're like archeologist historian magic thieves, and they're my secret priests as well!
New crackpot theory: pre-exaltation Saulanna was a magic historian thief Kairosa cultist. From the future. Who traveled back in time to purposely mess up stealing from Kaan, get mindwiped and Titan-ed, and eventually create Kairosa in the first place.
>>
No. 69263 ID: 1c7e1b

I prefer being a representation of Saulanna's intelligence/stupidity and personality.
>>
No. 69264 ID: 25d73e

>>69257
i want that theory to be true so bad
>>
No. 69265 ID: 47a120

>>69257
that was beautiful.
>>
No. 69266 ID: 76b151

>>69257
its the best kind of paradox.
>>
No. 69268 ID: cee89f

>>69257
...
MUST! BE!! CANON!!!

>>69266
It's not a paradox if the time loop stays stable =3
>>
No. 69269 ID: 76b151

That sort of time loop is known as an ontological paradox. It has no beginning nor end as the act of creating Saulanna the titan cannot happen without the Deva known as Kairosa sending Saulanna back in time to become her mother. And she cannot exist without Saulanna the titan in the first place.
>>
No. 69310 ID: cee89f

>>69269
Ontological paradox is best paradox =3
>>
No. 69312 ID: 4411c7

Jukashi. Hey, Jukashi. You should update front page of Keychain of Creation with your status. You should also add links to all this Lunar Quest business. There must be people out there who read your comic but don't know about /tg/ or TGchan, so help them out by linking them here, at least. Some people might be thinking you're dead. That's bad.
>>
No. 69315 ID: 9e0824

>>69312

This. I was under the impression that Jukashi's illness prevented him from posting anywhere at all, and thus that he was effectively 'dead' even if not actually dead. It wasn't until just recently, when someone on /tg/ made a random reference to Lunar Quest, that I realized this was false, since the main Keychain page hasn't been updated at all with anything to the contrary. I didn't even know about Lunar Quest until that moment.
>>
No. 69316 ID: 5d121c

>>69269
I think that's the point.
>>
No. 69317 ID: 68742d

>>69312

I think the shitstorm's big enough without even more people to fuel the fire.
>>
No. 69320 ID: cee89f

>>69315
Personally I just googled for an update and found a thread giving an update on Jukashi's tendonitis and the Quest's return on what I think was a Whitewolf forum. A zealous enough fan should have an even easier time than I did.

>>69317
You think this is shit? What the hell?!
>>
No. 69323 ID: a869cb

I just facepalmed so hard my grandchildren will be born with fractures on their forehead.
>>
No. 69324 ID: cee89f

>>69323
...

Yeah, looking back, that was a stupid thing to say. Sorry.
>>
No. 69350 ID: cee89f

About the tent. I didn't notice before: Look at the crack that i assume is for the tent's opening. Something in there is glowing bright yellow/orange.

I'll spare you my usual insanity mixed with idiocy (Autopilot?! What was I thinking?!) and just say: Ideas?
>>
No. 69354 ID: f2c20c

>>69350
Mood lighting.
>>
No. 69390 ID: 52d91f

...I'll admit there's a part of me which just wants us to boost everyone's soul force as much as we can right now, just to see what our Inner World develops into.
>>
No. 69391 ID: 104dc3

>look at the color of this text

>look at the color of the mystery deva
>>
No. 69394 ID: 4b00a8

>>69391

his is green. yours is white.
>>
No. 69397 ID: f2c20c

>>69391
No, his green is much greener.
>>
No. 69399 ID: cee89f

>>69354
... Okay, I laughed.

>>69390
inorite? This inner world crap is startin' to get awesome!

>>69394
?????

>>69397
Also, surrounded by black.
>>
No. 69403 ID: 47a120

>>69390
There is a good reason to just pump SF. It is the most plausible method to detect greenie
>>
No. 69407 ID: cd862b

>>69403
Also, free abilities.
>>
No. 69408 ID: d6ef5d

>>69407
Increasingly more expensive abilities, you mean.

>?????
Skins.
>>
No. 69410 ID: cee89f

>>69408
>Increasingly more expensive abilities, you mean.
No. I mean a free ability, plus more powerful Devas and potential upgrades for currently owned abilities. I call the ability 'free' because it's not the only benefit, or even really the main one.

>Skins.
... Are you guys being confusing on purpose?
>>
No. 69411 ID: d6ef5d

>>69410
A single unit of TW is equivalent to the purchase of one basic skill, ability, or stat increase. By spending several points on a level of soul force, you are trading several of those potential upgrades for an increase in our base power. It's a basic opportunity cost. The ability that comes with the SF purchase is not "free", it is simply the one point not offset to power. (This is getting into semantics though, and not worth arguing. And long term, the very concept of opportunity cost doesn't apply when we can unspend resources).

>... Are you guys being confusing on purpose?
Try clicking some of the options on the upper right of the page.
>>
No. 69412 ID: cee89f

>>69411
>A single unit of TW is equivalent to the purchase of one basic skill, ability, or stat increase. By spending several points on a level of soul force, you are trading several of those potential upgrades for an increase in our base power. It's a basic opportunity cost. The ability that comes with the SF purchase is not "free", it is simply the one point not offset to power. (This is getting into semantics though, and not worth arguing. And long term, the very concept of opportunity cost doesn't apply when we can unspend resources).

Oh I get that - I call them 'free' mostly because they're not the main point of SF, just an extra that's honestly kinda cool.

>Try clicking some of the options on the upper right of the page.
Ahhhhhhh. Okay, my bad.
>>
No. 69427 ID: c7197a

Hi, is Jukashi here? This is rather off topic, but I'm running a quest where Ranma Saotome from Ranma 1/2 is dumped in Creation. Some of my players were wondering if characters from Keychain of Creation were going to feature in the game, and I've been told this is where you were most active, so I came to ask you for permission.
>>
No. 69429 ID: 520816

>>69427
Obviously a master of the "Twin-Faced Hero" charm.

Note that "Keychain" doesn't seem to have any continuity with "Lunar Quest" though.
>>
No. 69431 ID: cee89f

>>69427
I wanted to do a sarcastic joke but it was too mean-spirited.

>>69429
Well LQ COULD potentially be in continuity with Keychain since it's unclear when precisely Lunar Quest takes place.
>>
No. 69432 ID: 7475da

>>69427

As with most of my creations, I'm fine with people using Keychain of Creation characters, so long as you don't pretend (or allow people who are unfamiliar with my work to assume) they're your own produce.
>>
No. 69441 ID: 5d121c

so what exactly did we end up spending the TW on?
>>
No. 69444 ID: 968c29
File 136439199476.jpg - (45.48KB , 800x500 , 135166507611.jpg )
69444

First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff? I don't see how it could have something to do with shadows specifically.

Other than that, seeing how this internal phase is supposet to be an easy paced info dump, IIRC, I'd like to ask a few questions that the info itself made me think of.

>"Gaia is the Titan of Life, after all! Theoretically, she should have been able to bring him back, or at least someone very like him. There must be a reason why she hasn't, but my senses can't

reach that far."


I can't help but notice that the color of both Haht'hek and Kairosa is purple. Which got me thinking, if Gaia thought it was a bad idea to recreate him, she's gotta have a strong opinion on

Kairosa's existence. Probably knows something is up already, too. We need more info on this. Is there any way we could find out?

>But even aether itself, I must tell you, is a dire, dire secret; it is the final refined resource that we Titans produce when we purify the stuff of chaos into useable form, the clay for our

greatest works. We even restricted our own access to it. Don't let anyone know about it, please."

>"You know, a lot of the Titan's Will you get from a soul is from sucking the aether out of it. If we could dip into the aetherworld for power, we could-"
>"Forget it. The Unconquered Sun himself is the guard on that door."

We really need more info on this. Considering how much we hate eating souls, if we got a better feel for what the "dream world" is and how it works we could find alternatives. Obviously the "door"

isn't something that completely shuts everything out, since people still do dream.

We could even do something crazy and make a seeing deva of dreams. I bet a deva like that would be able to get at secrets that other element seeing devas couldn't couldn't ever dream of. (sorry)

Would be useful, and be perfect for giving us answers to the other things I'm wondering about. Though I suppose we still need that stealth deva more... Probably. Who knows. A lot of "stealth" can

be achieved by being forewarned about threats well enough.

>"She is Aa, the Elemental Dragon of Aether, and Queen of Gaia. Assuming nothing has changed, she lives in the Twilight World; that is, the world of dreams."

Aa is yellow. Like yellow jade. All of the dragons have their specific color of jade, and yellow jade is the one that is incredibly rare and mysterious. That can't be significant in any way, can

it? Heh.

I love how perfectly this all fits with the yellow jade in the cannon. We could maybe ask Peregrin if he has anything with yellow jade in it on hand. Have Kairosa take a lick of it, see what she

might taste.

After checking out yellow jade, we start asking around about purple jade, the jade of Haht'hek. It obviously has to, or had to a long time ago, exist. Samsara wouldn't be pleased otherwise, I'm

sure. I mean, come on, all six dragons have their type of jade, but the seventh doesn't? Not seeing it. Even if any purple jade was retroactively burned away when Haht'hek himself was, it seems

that Kairosa has some of that same purple essence in her. It would be worth asking her, or maybe Gaia if we ever get the chance.

>How can we grow?
>"I'm afraid I'm not sure how you would develop yourself further, since you don't have the instinctive understanding of how to grow with Titan's Will, like we do."
>"Sorcery, mistress! You just need to train yourself up! ..."

Seems like a pretty critical thing to me. We can't forget giving Deva-Saulanna the most basic deva instincts she's lacking right now, after all.

>"You probably won't unravel reality unless you're trying to, anything much less than that shouldn't cause much more complaint than any normal Hero. There is the problem of you not being

subject to Fate, though, I guess. I can't make it look like you are. Sooo, maybe a stealthy deva could help you there? Or just keep away from anyone who'd notice."


Yeah. We need stealth. I think that should be the priority after we get through the social situation we got ourselves into. Being found out seems like our biggest concern right now, even in said

social situation. We can't let the Dragon's Shadow find out about us. We can't let Akatrina find out about us. We can't let the moon heroes find out about us. We can't show up on the Loom of Fate.

We need to hide.

>"Essentially, your Hero Soul behaved as if it were a deva!"

Just wondering how close to Luna our entire titanic being is, what with the way the natures of devas seem to bleed into each other. Deva-Saulanna and Kairosa both must have a lot of lunar affinity

already, and even Wordblood must have some.
>>
No. 69445 ID: cee89f

>>69444
I can't help but notice that the color of both Haht'hek and Kairosa is purple. Which got me thinking, if Gaia thought it was a bad idea to recreate him, she's gotta have a strong opinion on Kairosa's existence. Probably knows something is up already, too. We need more info on this. Is there any way we could find out?

How? Kairosa only knows about Haht'hek because they're both Time. If Gaia never made another Time deva to fulfil Haht'hek's role why would she know about her?

>We really need more info on this. Considering how much we hate eating souls, if we got a better feel for what the "dream world" is and how it works we could find alternatives. Obviously the "door" isn't something that completely shuts everything out, since people still do dream.

... Where are you getting 'dream world'? All I see is aetherworld.

>We need to hide.

Saulanna is of the opinion it's still too soon to make another deva.

>First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff? I don't see how it could have something to do with shadows specifically.

Death Hero caste marks are black and blood red. I'll let you do the rest of the math.

>>69441
We haven't yet.
>>
No. 69448 ID: 5d121c

>>69445
>Saulanna is of the opinion it's still too soon to make another deva.

That's just tentative consensus, though. If the need to hide comes up, as it may well if any of the moon heroes or akatrina find out too much about us in the near future, it'll change.
>>
No. 69449 ID: 49add0

>>69448
>Consensus
No it's not. I mean, yes, that was the general consensus, but that's not all it is.

>>/quest/495847
>"Too soon. Definitely."

Gathering a consensus won't matter if Saulanna utterly refuses to from sheer trauma, and frankly I don't think we should force the issue.
>>
No. 69450 ID: 7475da

>>69444
>First thing, a picture from back in the previous thread. What's with that red stuff?

I, um.

I use red, see, to sketch out how I'm positioning everything, before I draw it properly.

I forgot to turn that layer off.

Sorry.
>>
No. 69453 ID: 5d121c

>>69431
I think it takes place a few hundred years after the return of the solars. So yeah, it could easily be the same continuity, if there was a reason for it to be.

>>69449
I don't see why my argument would only count for the suggestions and not Saulanna as the character. She's not an idiot, she'd see a need to hide if there was an obvious need to hide.

Also, who knows if that too soon thing still stands. A lot has changed in the inner world. And well, let's not forget that this was said while discussing a perceptive deva while an entity that wants to hide was manipulating the situation.
>>
No. 69455 ID: 49add0

>>69450
... So it WASN'T a death hero quirk, then?

dammit =(

>>69452
Because A) 'consensus' requires more than one person. Saulanna is not more than one person. Having a consensus with yourself is more than a little redundant.

B) That particular quote came after we upgraded her soul force, ie, AFTER the inner world changes. So it's been the equivalent of a few minutes since she said it was definitely too soon. Pain on the scale it was implied to be tends to linger in one's mind - a few minutes after 'Definitely too soon' is still too soon.

C) Saulanna is still a human being, with emotion and all the positives and negative that come with it. One of those negatives would be a great aversion to pain, especially pain that severe. Heck, maybe we need to let her recover in the real world instead of this time-freeze thing we have right now.

---

Wait a second, this gives me an idea.

Would Kairosa be capable of freezing Saulanna's awareness next time so she's unaware of the soul being ripped off of her? Like anesthetic or something?
>>
No. 69460 ID: 5d121c

>>69455
You're either grasping at straws or just trying to insult my intelligence now. Whatever, man. It'll come as it comes.
>>
No. 69462 ID: d6ef5d

Creating a new Lord Deva is a Big Deal™, and we still haven't really finished the process of integrating the one we just made. And then there's the fact we accidentally had an unplanned deva (or proto-deva?) of unknown element and purpose we haven't even started on yet. Put that together with the strain on Saulanna, and we got plenty of reasons to not want to get a new deva soon.

And that's just the in universe rational! Outside- it requires a huge effort on our part planning and brainstorming and voting- before and after character creation. If you count the dis thread we killed and the internal phase it took two whole threads to get Kairosa up and running! That's not something we're going to do frequently, or at the drop of a hat.

It doesn't really work from a storytelling perspective either to introduce devas too closely, either (and if you consider the role of samsara, storytelling considerations double as in and out of universe!). Wrecks pacing. It makes sense there would be additional roadblocks to prevent us from just making a new one every time we hit the relatively small amount of TW it would take at this point.
>>
No. 69463 ID: cee89f

>>69460
Look, I get the knee-jerk reaction to everything I post at this point is to assume I'm yelling like an idiot but if you can't see half of it in allcaps, try actually reading what I say first, please.

You think I'm grasping at straws by pointing out genuine flaws in your argument (you say "it's been long enough and a lot has changed", I say "it's been a few minutes and she said that AFTER all those changes") and/or insulting you because I'm telling you you're wrong?

*rereads*

...Okay, A is nitpicking semantics, i admit. B, on the other hand, is a genuine issue, as is C.

>She's not an idiot, she'd see a need to hide if there was an obvious need to hide.

Implying that the only reason she WOULDN'T make a new deva is that she's stupid. IE, that it's a matter of logic.

You have ignored emotional state entirely. Saulanna is smart but she's not emotionless - getting your soul ripped so severely you can't feel anything else isn't something you can just do again after a few minutes.
>>
No. 69464 ID: c6319f

>>69463
I seriously doubt the pain of the process is a major consideration in not wanting to make a new Deva at this point.

It just isn't time yet.
>>
No. 69465 ID: cee89f

>>69464
ummmmm... okay. Why do you think that, excatly? I'm genuinely confused here - the pain of the process was a pretty huge deal.

Even if we assume she meant something else when she said it was still too soon, we really haven't been in the inner world for that long. (in-universe, anyway). We've had a few conversations, some explanations, some deliberating... Maybe an hour's worth of time-stop, tops, even if we assume that she's recovering while the time-stop is up.

I agree we should make a new Deva eventually, mind - just not any time soon.
>>
No. 69471 ID: f2c20c

Y'know, I just realized something about Saulanna's Heart's Desire issues. She mentioned "The desire to grow, to become stronger, more complete" as being as close to a Heart's Desire as she can think of right now... isn't that what our green friend wanted?

Is greenie's situation affecting her enough to influence her heart's desire? Wordblood said that you could guide a new Deva to alter their purpose to something related or similar in scope. Is that what's happening here? Are we guiding her Heart's Desire towards simply getting stronger, rather than something more long-term or benevolent?
>>
No. 69472 ID: e98374

Well, damn. The horns are going to convince our lunar guests that we had an unfortunate wyld surge and need tattooing all the more before we have more of them.

Also daum girl you huge O_o
>>
No. 69473 ID: 76bc8d

>>69471
If there is anything keeping her from settling on a better hearts desire, it's us.
>>
No. 69474 ID: cee89f

... Okay, so...

We can probably do our hair another way to hide the horns. Maybe spend that last bit of will to make us shrink? Or maybe regular ol' lunar shapeshifting will fix our size issue? ... Then again maybe not, we can't exactly eat our own heart, now can we...
>>
No. 69475 ID: 76bc8d

We need to adapt our shape shifting ability to return to our previous form and size. I have no idea what it'll take to do that, though. I guess it would be Saulannas domain directly, and I'm sure it's possible, but the cost... We may need to rewind a few powers, or send out Peregin to arrest a ghost or two on his own.
>>
No. 69477 ID: e9140c

if it was up to me I'd just spend all my efforts on being awesome in combat so I could just beat up whoever had a problem with me having horns.
>>
No. 69481 ID: 9db85e

All things considered, I want to be remembered as having voted for avoiding another social at all, and focusing on escape.
>>
No. 69482 ID: af8414

Step 1: Try shapeshifting
Step 2: Use Kairosa's TW recovery ability and spend it to get back to normal-ish human appearance
>>
No. 69484 ID: 76b151

Our new size probably has nothing to do with our new abilities and everything to do with the fact that we are a SF 9 being.
>>
No. 69485 ID: 76b151

Oh and for shape shifting all we have to do is eat a human heart.
>>
No. 69486 ID: cee89f

..... Eh. Guess we should've known this might happen.

>Star mystery

Ooooh, sounds like fun! =D Assuming they're in chronological order because of Devourer and Mask:

>Mask
Exaltation. Easy. Raccoon mask, exaltation is kind of a big deal, and it's the earliest moment in Saulanna's awareness.

>Scepter
...................... Okay, no idea. Best guess is that it refers to Saulanna being the Queen somehow. Maybe making Peregrin our vassal, but then why that placement...

>Waiting Man
Gevin, probably. Our first quest.

>Tome
I'd say this is when Saulanna first ate that book and began hearing Wordblood for the first time.

>Crescent
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I wanna say 'meeting the moon heroes' but that feels off somehow... Maybe that was when the Hero Soul adapted to function as a deva?

>Devourer
Making Kairosa, most likely.

>>69484
Honestly I'm more inclined to say this is Kairosa's influence. What little I know of exalted and Lunar Quest suggests that soul force does not make you a giant with horns.

...

On the other hand, if we DO get discovered, size might be an advantage in a fight.
(Use warform! LIEK A BAWS! Toss a Lunar! LIEK A BAWS! )
>>
No. 69487 ID: 1461fb

>>69486

They're not in chronological order.
>>
No. 69489 ID: 406926

A thought. As I believe this latest change demonstrates, our body in the real world is the body of Saulanna-the-Titan, rather than merely the body of Saulanna. If we can shapeshift into Saulanna-the-deva's native form- that is, human- with the Titan-body, then perhaps we can also shapeshift into the native forms of our other Lord Souls, Wordblood and Kairosa? Perhaps not immediately applicable right now, but something worth trying and potentially useful in the future. At the very least, I would expect us to be able to build an ability tree that lets us do this.

The issue of Tells- that is, the fact that we can't actually shift fully into Saulanna-the-deva's human form- is unfortunately likely to throw a wrench into this.

As for fixing the size problem, I suspect that like so much else our most effective option is to shove TW at it. Fortunately Peregrin should be able to help us out there.
>>
No. 69490 ID: fe53d4

Wordblood: I had an idea for an improved version of that trick you used to stop Saulanna from being mind-controlled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphasia#Verbal_Paraphasia

Verbal Paraphasia is basically a disorder where words get replaced with other, similar or related words. Usually the words are replaced with words that sound/look like, or have similar meanings to, the initial word.

This word work beter, I think, because the meaning of the words are not lost or destroyed, but translating the misplaced context will still throw off the suggestion effect since it takes too long to understand. Kinda like trying to persuade people using a language they don't understand.

Though, really, you could just do that instead. Just translate incoming enhanced speech into a different language that Saulanna doesn't understand. Like greek, or spanish, or one of the dozens of languages you've undoubtably made up in your spare time.
>>
No. 69492 ID: f2c20c

>>69487
Oh. In that case...

The Mask symbolizes the making of Kairosa. It's not a raccoon mask, it's her mask.
The Scepter symbolizes... meeting and subjugating Peregrin, I want to say.
The Waiting Man symbolizes meeting Gevin, and taking on his quest to find the lady and deliver the box.
The Book symbolizes consuming that first book and Wordblood becoming active.
The Crescent likely symbolizes meeting Luna, except... why a Crescent instead of a full moon?
The Devourer probably symbolizes the first time we ate a soul.
>>
No. 69493 ID: f2c20c

>>69473
Perhaps we should simply avoid eating souls at all from now on, then. Or only eat those ghosts who wish to die, but cannot.

All we'd really have to do is survive for about a week, then we'd get a decent amount of TW a day from having 4 Will Generation. We might even manage to squeeze a few TW out of eating books.
>>
No. 69495 ID: cee89f

>>69487
....Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww D=

Well in that case...

>>69492
>Kairosa's mask
Maybe but I figured that that was stylization (which happens a lot with constellations) and Kairosa was the Devourer. Feeding soul, relation to a dragon, etc. Marking it as the first time we ate a soul feels... well, reading it, it wasn't that big of a deal. The moral debate over it, sure, but as an event in Saulanna's life, the most important thing it did was tip us off to wordblood.

Also, the devourer has a pair of horns.

Without time constraints I'll say:
Mask: Lunar Exaltation, with our raccoon totem.
Scepter: Binding Peregrin as our vassal, symbolizing both his own scepter and our own rulership of him (a la the King's scepter or something)
Waiting Man: Gevin.
Tome: Eating the tome, which allowed us to hear Wordblood for the first time.
Crescent: Meeting the Lunars (who have, like it or not, become our main conflict for this chapter with Akatrina)

Admittedly those are just what I find most likely and others are certainly possible. Comments?

>>69493
How would we get the word out on something like that? It's not like mortals could keep a secret from heroes.

>>69490
Saulanna succeeds automatically on any linguistics challenge. A language she doesn't know would get translated automatically.

The rest, however, i like.

>>69489
Lunar shapeshifting requires we eat something's heart to gain their form. Do Kairosa and Wordblood even HAVE physical hearts to devour?
>>
No. 69500 ID: ecd0ab

>>69495
Shapeshifting into things that don't have physical hearts generally requires Lunars to learn more Shapeshifting Knacks. It can be done, though. Turning into say, an elemental dragon doesn't necessarily mean you can use that elementals powers, though, just that you can take the form. There are ways to steal certain powers too but those are generally much more limited. I'm just talking generic Lunar here though, our shapeshifting could probably be more powerful.
>>
No. 69509 ID: b50bd5

>>69472
(Re: horns)
Yeah, that's going to be a problem. Simple hairstyling might be a partial fix for now, but if the Lunars notice (which is likely, considering the height) then they'll be less likely to take no for an answer. Then, Saulanna will have to either drive them off and probably owe the Dragon (never a good thing), or spill the beans. Possibly to Luna, either directly or by the Lunars contacting her.

Idea: Go to the Northern Wyld and find that cliff you can jump off of to land directly in Heaven next to Luna's game console, so you can talk to "hir" directly. =)

Actually, it's possible that these changes are Wyld mutations rather than harmless expressions of Saulanna's growing power. That would also not be good. (Not that horns are generally a good sign on divine beings anyway.)

Okay, here's a slightly better idea. Immediately look into the system of taboos and mystical pacts with local gods, which can stave off mutation. It's an excuse to stave off the Lunars for a couple of badly-needed weeks, and lets Saulanna travel around and meet the local gods, having useful adventures along the way. Either she really does figure out some taboos, or she works out a TW solution to reverse/halt mutations or make sure future tattoos don't hinder her growth. Either way she learns stuff, gains experience, and does things interesting to the artist and us players. Win-win.

Jukashi, congratulations on another fun chapter!
>>
No. 69513 ID: c8395c

This is one of the problems involved in lacking proper tattoos to fix Saulanna's Caste. If I remember correctly, unfixed castes tend to shift over time- in synch with the phase of the moon. Notice that back in the first post of the previous thread, waaaaay back in >>399782 that the moon was almost completely full. Now, the moon is presumably full! Coincidentally, the full moon lasts for approximately three days, after which we'll have more resources available thanks to Kairosa.

Funny how that works out, huh?

Hence, Saulanna is currently a full moon. She will probably not be one in three days time or so.

That doesn't necessarily explain the horns, but they're probably a result of gaining Kairosa and boosting her essence.

So yeah, what Saulanna might want to do is possibly try to pass them off as a very interesting hair ornament. She'd need new clothes to pull that off, though. Also, I'm pretty sure the other Lunars are well versed as to how castes shift, so Saulanna's greater size is probably not going to be considered much of an issue by them.

The horns, though, are probably still a problem.
>>
No. 69516 ID: 52d91f

>>502603

...Nah. More like a foot and a half.

....I suspect we might need another soul or two to nom on, to get this straightened out. We might need to develop a variant of our War Form to hold our new Demonic Splendor.
>>
No. 69517 ID: 52d91f

Also, Jukashi, are you planning on taking a break for awhile? Or should we expect more Lunar Quest "soonish?"
>>
No. 69519 ID: 637ffd

>>69481
>I want to be remembered
You are posting as anonymous, if you want to be remembered choose an actual name :)
>>
No. 69523 ID: efa215

>>69517

After one or two other small projects, and continuing Battle Quest if my coauthors are up for it, I intend to switch over to Will of the Undermind and get the next chapter of that done.
>>
No. 69541 ID: f2c20c

>>69523
I can't wait for us to get back to Maolla syrup and the lack of difficult moral choices involved in her adventure!

Sometimes it's good to have a straightforward problem to approach.
>>
No. 69545 ID: 5d121c

>>69523
Can you say when Lunar Quest is likely to continue? I don't mind if you can't say with any precision, I just wanna know about what to expect.

Weeks? Months? Years?
>>
No. 69547 ID: 952246

>>69545
Based on the previous, months, but more than a couple of them.
>>
No. 69549 ID: 52d91f

>>69523
Woo! More Will of the Undermind! Yaaay!!!
>>
No. 69550 ID: cee89f

>>69523
Well, as someone who doesn't really follow Undermind, I'll be awaiting both Battle Quest and LQ's return eagerly. Take it easy.
>>
No. 69551 ID: d6ef5d

>>69545
Gap between Lunar Quest Chapters I and II: 1 year, 8 months

Gap between Will of the Undermind chapters: 2 years, 1 month, 13 days and counting.

I kind of doubt the gap will be that big again, but if he's quest jumping, months sounds accurate.
>>
No. 69554 ID: cee89f

>>69551
If he's doing one at a time (which seems likely given the wording of >>69523 ,) then we also have to consider the length of the quest itself:

Length of Undermind ch.1: 8/14/2010 - 2/17/2011 (6 months, 3 days)
Length of Battle Quest turn 1: 11/19/2011 - 2/12/2012 (2 months, 24 days)

(Length determined by first post to final picture for the chapter because it's easier and I'm hungry.)
>>
No. 69561 ID: 52d91f

>>69523
...Didn't the entire Scellor army on that planet get blown up?
>>
No. 69571 ID: cee89f

>>69561
... Er... The impression I got was that the Astranians were mid-bombardment and the suggesters would have to deal with it on the Scellor's next turn. Tactica Command freely admitted it didn't have enough data to accurately predict scenarios, so the Scellor could've had something it wasn't expecting.
>>
No. 69572 ID: db498b

>>69561
>>69571
Well if nothing else, there's always more Scellor. And more planets.
>>
No. 69604 ID: cee89f

>>69572
And if nothing nothing else, Radde just got a lander into the air. He can probably crash it into the enemy ship. "Turn it's weight into an advantage" as he said.
>>
No. 69912 ID: 4404d5

Huh. Finally read Lunar Quest, but it seems I was just in time for the hiatus.
(Still, it made for an AWESOME read.)
Oh well, adding some thoughts for when the next chapter starts:

Since there's undoubtedly further power-ups and Devas in our future, maybe we SHOULD consider getting some Moonsilver Tattoos, simply to stay human-shaped and -sized? (Still significant drawbacks and difficulties to this action...)

If the Green One is/becomes a Deva, a self-contained entity in its own right... does that mean that the Curse is now effectively removed from the Hero Soul - thus unleashing its superior adaptation capabilities?

(By the way, if in a far future chapter, we somehow reverse the polarity of this thing, we might just end up with a Deva of Cleansing and Forgiveness... which, by that point, we might sorely need.)

We should try to help out Alice, once we get some breathing room. If Wordblood can read her True Name (assuming she isn't too mindwiped to have one), then maybe having that will give her enough mental stability that she'll at least remember her everyday name...

If we are to enter social combat again, we should definitely up our skills first. After reading/eating books on the subject, maybe we should seek out a few socially-adept ghosts, and have them tutor us in social combat, in exchange for future favors? If it is done inside our head, the process will presumably be instant.

Speaking of our internal world, if it grows much more, we should consider getting some mortals to settle in there. It seems like a nice place, and having a peaceful, prosperous community inside our head sounds like it could be a good thing for our mental balance.

Last point: After we've nommed on books and instructed Kaan, we should take a good look at the music box together, and determine what it can do. A quest to, say, stabilize the borders of this Shadowland and keep them from growing further MIGHT be important enough to the larger scheme of things, that both Death Hero and Moon Heroes could agree to let us work at it in peace.
>>
No. 70006 ID: 5d121c

>>69912
The better choice for hiding our transformation in anything but the short term would be to just get a bunch of power and leave our titan body somewhere hidden while we bring out our deva body and use that.
>>
No. 70008 ID: cee89f

>>70006
1) We'll need a LOT of power for that. Power we don't exactly have ready access to. If we waited long enough for the power you're talking about to be available, we'd probably already have a stealth deva by then who could do it better, faster and cheaper.

2) We aren't looking for a long-term plan to hide anyway - we just need to hide long enough to get some TW and alter our body again. Or to come up with some other plan.

3) We're trying to hide that our body is changing. Even if they can't tell we're a titanic deva by looking at us (a distinct possibility) ...Saulanna's deva doesn't have her Tell.
>>
No. 70012 ID: 5d121c

>>70008
I doubt very much that we'll be able to change our titan body significantly. At least not in a backwards, make it smaller sense. I'm betting it's like with alchemicals and how they get bigger as their essence increases.

We're getting pretty massive increases in the power of our devas already. Getting a deva's body out and about with an addition of a tell wouldn't cost much in comparison. What it would mostly cost is having a higher soul force in the first place, most likely.

But that's why I said it wouldn't work for the short term. After a while it would be a natural thing for us, not something we need to pay huge amounts for.

The usefulness couldn't be overstated either, especially if we could recall the separate deva into our realm from anywhere.
>>
No. 70042 ID: a8d36d

>>70012
Wordblood has stated that we can alter our body with TW, (That's one of the reasons that we don't want the Moonsilver tattoos) and that applying enough TW can accomplish anything.

Admittedly, altering our body after a titanic change seems like a huge deal we can't exactly accomplish at our current level of power... but then, you're talking long-term. Long term, we'll have much more power.

>But that's why I said it wouldn't work for the short term.

Sure, but we don't need to hide ourselves long-term, just short term. We're planning on getting a stealth deva later, so even if we did need to hide for longer than it takes to get away from the Lunars and Akatrina, we could just build towards that and make it work.

>Getting a deva's body out and about with an addition of a tell wouldn't cost much in comparison.

If we could fake a Lunar tell (which I doubt can be done... though this could be my limited exalted knowledge and poor google-fu talking), we could probably just fake that our body is smaller and human anyway =p
>>
No. 70050 ID: 5d121c

>>70042
>Wordblood has stated that we can alter our body with TW

I never said it would be impossible, it just seems to me like it would cost much more to go against the flow and change our titan body back than use that power to develop abilities that are central to a titan in the first place.

Kairosa hinted to this by saying "Ok, so, er. No problem. You can fix this! ... I think." there at the end.

>Sure, but we don't need to hide ourselves long-term, just short term.

Sure we do. It might even be better to hide in a way that doesn't involve a new deva if we could do it gracefully without one.

>If we could fake a Lunar tell, we could probably just fake that our body is smaller and human anyway

It doesn't seem that way to me. Hiding something big that's there is harder than faking the appearance of something small, not to mention elusive, by its nature. It takes a skill check to even notice a lunar's tell for what it is in the exalted rules, IIRC.
>>
No. 70088 ID: cee89f

>>70050
I assumed Kairosa said that because doing so without being caught (thus negating the reason for changing) would be difficult since we don't have enough TW to do anything about it.

Also, if it's just 'hinted' then we don't know for sure =p

>Sure we do. It might even be better to hide in a way that doesn't involve a new deva if we could do it gracefully without one.

Why? Why do we need to hide ourselves long-term?

>It doesn't seem that way to me. Hiding something big that's there is harder than faking the appearance of something small, not to mention elusive, by its nature. It takes a skill check to even notice a lunar's tell for what it is in the exalted rules, IIRC.

1) This could be my lack of Exalted knowledge talking, but I was under the impression from KoC (particularly one scene where Marena disguises herself) that such a skill check only applied for a mortal.

2) I think it'd be much easier to make something look smaller than to fake a permanent magical effect brought on by a divine superweapon.

3) Saulanna the deva can't cast illusion spells anyway.

Also, I had a thought earlier. The Green... Dragon, deva, whatever-it-is. It can erase memories practically as they're made. Maybe we could find a way to get it to do that to others around us? Saulanna doesn't seem to have gotten /too/ much bigger, maybe we could wipe their minds and have them think she was ALWAYS that size. Then we hide the horns and bam, instant cover.

... Then again, maybe we should stop talking and wait for the quest to resume... yeah, gonna shut up now. See yall later.
>>
No. 70102 ID: 5d121c

>>70088
>hiding
We need to hide ourselves in the long term because the threats we're hiding from right now are nothing compared to what's out there. We're facing two moon heroes and a death hero, all of medium age or so. Out there, there's much older and stronger heroes, of more types than this. There's Incarnae. There's other Titans that might not be friendly, the Yozi, maybe even the Neverborn if we look deep enough. Considering what we are, we're guaranteed to be playing in that league.

Basically, we need to play it safe even after the current situation is resolved.

>tell

These things apply equally to everyone, it's just that heroes are so much better at making such checks.

There's nothing about a tell that screams out mystical effect brought on by divinity if you don't scrutinize it closely. And if we DID want to have a fake tell pass close scrutiny, we'd probably need to do it with moon power, which we have anyway.

But I'm getting a bit beyond my depth now, too. This is more inference from memory than anything solid. I need to get out my lunar books some time.

>illusion spells

That implies sorcery. Which is an overcomplex imitation of a titan's most basic abilities.

Um, yeah, we can do that if we apply a bit of power to it.

>erase memory

That could work. Then again, that thing seems a bit... foul. I don't know if we should unleash it before we can even find out more about it.

See ya around then.
>>
No. 70104 ID: cff2a9

Clearly, if people are curious, we can just explain that during the break we changed our animal to the beautiful yet dangerous DIRE RACCOON
>>
No. 70153 ID: 78c6ea

I wonder why she got horns. Is it just a Wordblood-dragony thing? Is it some subconscious expression of her guilt over devouring souls? Honestly getting bigger doesn't make all that much sense either. I mean, she's a freakin' shapeshifter can't she just like, fix it?

Then again the walls of text for this adventure in addition to the proliferous source material has me balking like crazy. I'm probably missing something obvious.
>>
No. 70155 ID: cff2a9

>>70153
>I wonder why she got horns. Is it just a Wordblood-dragony thing?

See the title card of this thread? Look at the person Saulanna is looking at. The horny time lady who was created and strengthened during the time we didn't see Saulanna?

It might be related to her.
>>
No. 70171 ID: c35eac

I'm going to translate this awesome comic into Russian and have already sent the e-mail to the Jukashi (jukashi@patternspider.net ) for permission, but got no answer. So if you read this, please answer on m.e.phist@mail.ru
>>
No. 70348 ID: 509e51
File 136743779073.png - (92.15KB , 600x600 , akatits.png )
70348

How about some shadow boobs?
>>
No. 70350 ID: 150fea

ohh hehee~ Very nice...

Have I ever told you what kind of a a big fan I am of you? Honest it's true I love your work.
>>
No. 70356 ID: 406926

>>70348
Clearly two of her most powerful tools in negotiating people into their graves.
>>
No. 70365 ID: bf54a8

now we see why she has a dot more in beauty.
>>
No. 70366 ID: 65449b

>>70348
I'm choosing to accept this as a belated birthday present. Fantastic work, by way.
>>
No. 70377 ID: 4fbef4

I just lifted up my desk without using my hands.
>>
No. 70389 ID: beeca1
File 136768984169.png - (75.40KB , 327x469 , Shadowcropped2.png )
70389

My breasts are up here
>>
No. 70390 ID: 9654ee

>>70389

I love it when I can look a woman in her eyes.
>>
No. 70393 ID: 47a120

>>70348
nice
>>
No. 70397 ID: 47a120

>>70356
Eh, boobs are nice but she is adorable and beautiful and sexy in so many other ways.

>>70389
Dear lord that is horrifying!
>>
No. 70401 ID: 406926

For the reference and amusement of those interested, I squandered a modest amount of time collecting Lunar Quest related posts from various questdis threads. Okay, just the ITQ and holiday threads, but eh.

>>19206
>>17957
>>47549
>>67912
>>69381
>>69873

>>20217
>>40084
>>57571
>>57590
>>25780
>>45268
>>62894
>>34244
>>47967
>>
No. 70402 ID: d6ef5d

Off the top of my head, you missed this one.

>>42568

Her mindscape has certainly become a more interesting and cheerful place since then, huh?
>>
No. 70403 ID: 5d121c

>>70401

>>25780

Wait, Saulanna has an old realm script tattoo on her back? Who'd have thought.
>>
No. 70416 ID: cee89f

>>70397
...

It's really my fault that I keep clicking these things.
>>
No. 70421 ID: beeca1

>>70416
>>70839

Yes. Yes, it is.
>>
No. 70463 ID: cee89f

In case anyone hasn't heard already: Exalted 3e kickstarter goes live tomorrow.

Source:
https://twitter.com/TheOnyxPath/status/332167021888421889
>>
No. 70466 ID: 65449b

>>70463
Personally, I'm gonna back a bajillion dollars.
>>
No. 70470 ID: cf49fc

>>70466
I'll pay for a copy. I just want to see a semblance of playable combat, and it would be a perfect game for me
>>
No. 70475 ID: cee89f

>>70470
I MIGHT support the kickstarter if I get my credit card back before it closes. I'm just hoping Barnes and Noble stocks the new one so I can buy it.
>>
No. 70481 ID: d50925

>>70475
You're shit out of luck; Onyx Path only does PDFs or PoD.
>>
No. 70484 ID: 65449b

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition
The physical book is $110.
>>
No. 70486 ID: cee89f

>>70481
>>70484
.....

Well alright, I can't get it in a store but I can order a copy =/ Or just get the pdf.

Or both.
>>
No. 70488 ID: ecdc93

>>70484

The deluxe edition from the Kickstarter is $110. The POD version should be significantly cheaper, when it's released.
>>
No. 70970 ID: 1c60e6

I'm assuming I'm likely to miss the first few days of Lunar Quest starting up again in what, at least half a year? (IS there some kind of notification service, btw?), so here's my recommendations for our first few actions, in advance:

----------------

First priority: shadow walk back to room, in case the VISITING HEROES were able to sense our SOULNOMMING and UPGRADIFICATION and are rushing to our present location to investigate. Remember to bring along the empty SOUL CAGE CRYSTALS.
...If our light display is eliminating every shadow we move towards, we might want to dampen that down, first.

Now, for questions:
Are our physical changes connected to our total number of Devas, our total Soul Force, or the total points of Titan's Will we spend? This will affect how we spend TW in the future. Ask Peregrin whether we changed all in one go or if we, like, grew horns first, and THEN grew in size.
Hey btw, did this change give us more strength/toughness along with our new size?

Kairosa: Incidentally, what is our current MOON POWER regeneration rate? If you use POWER COMPRESSION, how much faster will we regenerate then? How about outside this shadow-land? Will regaining Moon Power faster affect our TW gain any?

Speaking of TW generation, I guess that's pretty much on hold for now, what with DS's time shenanigans? And if he wants to cut off our escape routes, he might keep doing it even now that Akatrina has arrived, in which case sunset in three days is probably at least a month away... (Though given that DS is presumably pouring lots of energy into local time doing this, maybe Kairosa could extract some of that energy from the overinflated time?)

------------------------

Anyway, for our immediate actions - since we're under time pressure, what could be done instantly, SHOULD be done instantly:

Have Peregrin gather for transport into our internal world (might take a few hours):
*BOOKS on rhetoric/sleuthing (we're likely to need both, soon!),
*Any GHOST MENTORS he finds that are willing to teach rhetoric for money,
*DEVIN, to keep him out of trouble,
*and PEREGRIN himself. (BTW, should he bring food, or does Wordblood's BREATH OF LIFE provide physical sustenance, as well?)

Put these in our Inner World, and spend a few subjective weeks learning from ghosts and books, while Wordblood teaches Peregrin how to use Power Words. (Don't release the ghosts until after the VISITING HEROES have left, so information doesn't spread.)

Hey, if we have a couple of smooth-talking ghosts in our head, anyway, could they help out in our debate, like Wordblood does, freeing him up for other actions? Assuming, of course, that they'd be on OUR side...
Kairosa should taste the ghosts in transit, to make sure none of them are spies. (Though even if they ARE, no nomming them - it is important to keep good faith.)

Give Peregrin some input; ask him what kind of Power Word he would like us to create next, after we do Power Word: Book.

Also, since Peregrin was actively hindered before by not knowing what we would want in a particular situation, we should take some time to let him get to know us, and give him some general policies to follow in similar situations.

Finally, investigate the Music Box (It's still in our Inner Den, right?), and find out just what it does.

-------------------

About our appearance: If changing back is difficult, we can try to simply live with the change. "So yeah, I had a growth spurt. In unrelated news, I'm interested in hearing more about those tattoo things", or "I have investigated your allegations scientifically, and found them to be true."
Wordblood: If Askalaff uses our "Wyld mutation" as Evidence in the debate, would it still affect us? After all, we know it's false...

Anyway, once outside again, talk to SHADES in Akatrina's retinue. (Also, see if you can get the opportunity to SNIFF HER LAUNDRY - er, I mean, learn things about her history and personality via Kairosa's tasting of her worldly possessions. Our Mask Sneak ability might be helpful in this - it should be fairly powerful by now, considering our total Soul Force is 9 or so.)

Talking to the MOON HEROES might also be prudent, preferably separately.
We can let Askalaff pump up our suspicion towards Dulahan, along with clearing up some of the hostility towards him that she engendered.
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No. 70998 ID: cee89f

>>70970
... That's a good question actually, where is the Inner Den now? I mean, earlier it was stated it had been moved into our inner world, but is there a specific place in here?
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No. 71000 ID: b99cb6

>>70970
>Music box
Maybe not, I think Devin has it with him. Remember he was in there with it before he took off on his own.

>>70998
I think it's the whole thing. It was a small space in which an small expanding universe was born.
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No. 71024 ID: 1c60e6

While any medium-term suggestions I give might be obsolete within a few updates, for the LONG term, I've got some ideas for new Devas I can share:

Stealth Soul of Humanity/Mortals
(letting us look and feel like a normal mortal, with a bonus of helping us relate to people, later on. I dunno about using Masks as an element - it would seem to overlap with shape-changing, which Lunars are already naturally good at. On the other hand, it might super-charge our existing abilities...),

Crafting Soul of Life/Organics/Growth
(Aiming for that competence gap between Gaia and Autochton. Would help moderately with normal crafting, but would specialize in things like Medicine, designing the Inner World ecosystem, growing new and interesting organs, cheaper body upgrades, etc. Ideally, this Deva would also help us understand our Hero Soul better...),

Shaping Soul of Metal/Magical Materials/Moonsilver
(A shaping soul would be focused on enforcing our will on the world, giving bonuses to Sorcery, Wyldshaping, Power Words, etc. And if we do get Moonsilver Tattoos, a Deva such as this might help us getting around their limitations. Besides, Power Word: Moonsilver would let us have lots of material for crafting...),

Seeing Soul of Power/Energy/Spirit
(Specifically, it would be useful to have a soul focused on detecting gods, exaltations, titans, and titan fragments, since those are what we worry about most. Hard to formulate the element so it doesn't intrude on Will, though. ),

Traveling Soul of Space/Borders/Doors
(This soul would help us escape our enemies, travel quickly to other places, and teleport to places we've 'bookmarked'. And with the right choice of element, we might walk with impunity through force-fields, wards - even walls - go from the Shadow-land to the living world AT NIGHT, jump to the Labyrinth and back, and perform Shadow Walking over large distances once we learn some Shadow Arts. It might also help with travel to/from our internal world),

Warrior Soul of Love/Friendship
(We need more human-ish themes, and it would be nice to have someone to stand guard over our beloved Devas in case our Inner World is ever invaded. )

Aide of Change/Evolution
(Nothing stops us from having multiple Aides, right? This one would help us shape-shift, help us form new Devas more easily, help develop the Green One, help ghosts be less static, help imprisoned Titans evolve past their limitations...
Of course, 'Change' might overlap with the Time element. And come to think, "Aide of Change" is a pretty good description of what our Hero Soul does, so there might be conflict there. Not to mention that if the DS's Deva with the Change Element happens to also be an Aide, things might get... complicated. )

----------------

You know, considering the Devas likely to form from Saulanna, our Moon Soul and the Green One... it seems we're going to be a VERY stealth/flight/survival-oriented Titan. This is probably a good thing, given how many beings will be on the hunt for us. Still, we might want to go quest for more Titanic Fragments, to diversify a bit ;)
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No. 71025 ID: 47a120

>>71024
>Nothing stops us from having multiple Aides
Correct, its elements that we cannot have overlap on.
The watcher is known for having multiple seeing devas for example.
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No. 71043 ID: 5d121c

>>71024

>Stealth Soul of Humanity/Mortals
I don't really like the idea of this for some reason. And if you're worried about shape

changing overlapping with our lunar stuff, why aren't you worried about this overlapping with

us being a mortal in the first place. I think the comparison is solid. There's nothing saying

we can't overlap either.

I still like the idea of paradox as the element for a stealth deva. It would fit in so well

next to Wordblood's language and Kairosa's time. And it is a thing that by its nature obscures

truths. Not a lot of people like it though, sadly.

>Crafting Soul of Life/Organics/Growth
Those sound all Gaia and zero Autochthon to me. Which makes sense, since the two are supposed

to be opposites anyway. Trying to get closer to Autochthon would clash with our lunar nature

as well and would be a bad idea, there'd been talk about this when we were making Kairosa.

>Shaping Soul of Metal/Magical Materials/Moonsilver
I guess it could work, but I don't see how it would fit into our broader themes. Maybe we

could make a new magical material for each of our noble devas in time if we did this.

Probably, even. Which would be neat. There's probably a purple jade concept for Kairosa out

there already, back from when there were seven elemental dragons, we'd just need to recreate

it.

'Power Word: Moonsilver' seems silly though. You can't 'do' moonsilver. How would that fit as

a power word? They need to be something more language-y, I think.

>Seeing Soul of Power/Energy/Spirit
These are not specific enough to be elements, IIRC.

>Traveling Soul of Space/Borders/Doors
Borders would be cool. Space seems iffy and doors is just cliche.

The concept of borders is just wide enough to touch on many interesting things. Borders in space, borders between time, borders between concepts in thought and language. Good synergy with all of our other devas if you ask me.

>Warrior Soul of Love/Friendship
A feeding sould of love was said to be a really bad idea because it would clash with the

nature of the world and all the conflict in it, and you want to make a warrior soul of love?

Friendship would work better, but I don't think that's saying much.

We need something better for a warrior soul.

>Aide of Change/Evolution
I really like the elements of change and evolution, but why put them on an aide? There's

nothing stopping us from having multiple aides and having them might even shape us into a very

helpful titan or something, but we kinda need a lot of other things before we need another

aide.

Maybe a shaping or crafting soul of change/evolution would fit better.


Also, I still think we really need a noble deva of Rebirth somewhere sometime, to balance Kairosa's "devour everything" thing. A healing soul of Rebirth?
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No. 71044 ID: 5d121c

I'd reformat the line breaks in that post, but it's giving me an "incorrect password" error when I try to delete it. Sorry about that.
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No. 71050 ID: 1c60e6

>Crafter of Life
I was thinking that crafting is an Autocthon thing, and Life is a Gaia thing. A builder of growing things seemed more intuitive and useful than, say, a Farmer of Machinery.
Hm, actually a Crafting Soul of Change/Evolution sounds like a good idea, and would probably accomplish the main thing I was shooting for.

>Shaper of Magical Materials
We know Power Word: Book is an option, and Power Word: Tree was mentioned. Power Word: Moonsilver would create a (probably small) quantity of Moonsilver. I seem to recall Exalts can do something like this with wyldshaping, though it costs XP or something.
But yeah, I also had trouble fitting it into our themes. Maybe an element of Infusion/Creation would be better. (HwBtUW had Creation as an Element)

>Warrior of Love
A Deva like this would have difficulty harming things, but would probably excel at protecting things, which was what I was going for. And I like the concept better than a pure Protector Soul, which would probably be focused on force-fields and buffs - being aggressive about protection seems more Lunar-like.

>Aide of Change
Hm, an Aide of Rebirth, maybe? That would still assist in getting new Devas and helping wounded Titans.

>Seeing Soul
Yeah, I was a bit stumped for an element that would be good at spotting titan fragments as well as exaltations. Suggestions?

>Traveling Soul of Borders
Glad you like it :)

Thanks for the feedback!
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No. 71053 ID: ef34de

>>71043
>I still like the idea of paradox as the element for a stealth deva. It would fit in so well next to Wordblood's language and Kairosa's time
It might actually intrude onto her sphere of influence, since "paradox" implies the confusion of time as much or more than anything. I could see it as one of her lordly devas. We'd have to ask her about it.

>We need something better for a warrior soul.
I want to say Emotion. Sure it might be trouble but it sounds so fun. Also it includes the "love" idea, while being more flexible in its uses.

>>71050
>Yeah, I was a bit stumped for an element that would be good at spotting titan fragments as well as exaltations. Suggestions?
Power? Sounds like an odd element for a seeing soul, but it fits the bill for that purpose. It would be sensitive to the presence and actions of great forces in the world, just the thing for spying on exalts, gods and titans. It's probably be limited in scope beyond that though. Mortal concerns would be below its radar to be sure.
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No. 71054 ID: cee89f

>>71050
>Seeing soul ideas
Seeing soul of Change? It would notice quickly if something were suddenly different, and since Titans mess things up around them basically by existing, it could potentially sense titan fragments... maybe? Granted, it wouldn't change much around it, but if the Seeing soul's whole thing was to sense that change, it might work.

... We should probably ask Wordblood/Kairosa if they have any ideas. Though, if we upgraded FPO to work on more major events Kairosa could probably help whatever seeing soul we make if finding a Titan fragment is our goal.

"Let's go left. I've got a good feeling about left."
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No. 71056 ID: ef34de

>>71054
We probably want to cause change, not simply observe it. It isn't a bad element but not suited to us for that purpose.
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No. 71059 ID: 1c60e6

>Seeing soul
"Potential", perhaps? A Titan fragment locked in a crystal or binding circle is basically nothing but pure potential, and Heroes of all kinds must be absolutely blazing with potential.
Or maybe that's too closely related to Time...

Is Power/Energy far enough removed from the element of Will, do you think? (Y'know, since Saulanna's reluctance to make a Will Deva strongly implies that's what HER element is)
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No. 71067 ID: ef34de

>>71059
>Potential
That strikes me as too not-primordial.

>Is Power/Energy far enough removed from the element of Will?
Sure. If it were Force that'd be a teeny bit too close but Power has enough other contexts and Energy is more a physical thing. But Energy sounds more like a deva under Power, though.
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No. 71070 ID: cee89f

>>71056
Fair enough. Personally I still want the Truth seeing soul, Change just seemed like it would help us find Titan fragments.

Hmmm... How about 'Power'? Lets us spot heroes, gods, titans, anything strong. I think it was brought up for a feeding soul but I don't remember if there was anything for or against it =/

>>71059
The thought crossed my mind, too =/ Saulanna could be a Will soul with a Leadership purpose or something similar?

>>71059
Er, I was under the impression that Titan fragments were still composed of their elements (such as Wordblood) and were just too weakened to act =/ And - correct me if i'm wrong - aren't Titans pure actuality (in the same vein as the Wyld is pure potential) anyway?
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No. 71072 ID: 1c60e6

>>71070
Well, the two are very different kinds of potential. From what I know, the Wyld is able to be anything, but it's kind of directionless, waffling to and fro.
On the other hand, a trapped Titan Fragment has a highly specific direction, but isn't able to act on it.
So it's kind of like the difference between a box of LEGOs and a stick of dynamite. One has lots of potential for building, the other is a potential explosion.
I'm guessing a Seeing Soul of Potential would see one as random noise, and the other as a very pure, specific colour.

Though that's an idea: A seeing soul of Reality/Actuality/Existence might also be very good at spotting Titans, since they're extremely real. It would be mostly the same sense, only palette-swapped.
(Still, I like Potential slightly better as an element, because it is closer to Chaos and the Lunar themes. And we'd be able to spot hidden talents, boobytraps, etc. )
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No. 71074 ID: 1c60e6

>>71070
Actually, I'm curious: How would you define the Truth element?
My own definition starts with: "Truths are Facts Looking for Revenge", which is to say, a truth is the antithesis of a deception, being born as the Lie is crafted.

By that definition, a Seeing Soul of Deception would do pretty much the same thing, except it might also help us lie convincingly, while a Truth Soul might give bonuses to Sleuthing.
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No. 71087 ID: 82b704

>>71070
>Hmmm... How about 'Power'?
Hah, see >>71053

>Will soul with a Leadership purpose
A Will soul still finding it's purpose. Or that doesn't have one. That's one thing I think isn't going to be strongly defined for her, ever. She wasn't made to be a piece of a whole with a certain role, she's a being that does what it wants to do. Or her purpose will be something like more abstract like "Being". She's a titan so making up her own rules about things is part of the way it works too.

>>71072
Huh. I'm very curious what the side effects of having a Reality element would be. It might be very good for our general health as a being otherwise defying definition. Or it could be... not. Perhaps we'd keep a better handle on both mortal concerns and higher order perspective. And certainly it would be great at understanding the state of Creation at the largest scale.

It's downsides would be... hmm. Inability to perceive what is less real? Or at least not what's in it. As long as we aren't taking trips into the Wyld that shouldn't be a problem though. It would also be very focused into the "now" of existence which makes it a perfect compliment to Kairosa's past reading and prophetic lesser aspects.
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No. 71088 ID: cee89f

>>71072
The way Kairosa described it, it seems that things become more 'real' the more important they are. A trap that could potentially kill us, with both a Time and Reality soul in our bodies, we could probably sense pretty easily, especially with any resonance it may have with our hero's soul.

Possibly.

>>71074
Truth : Reality behind the deception, what is underneath the underneath, why what we're seeing is what it is. See the world as it truly is, and through the lies others tell us, but also see through the lies a person tells themselves.

... Not sure how to describe it beyond 'truth'.

>Facts seeking revenge
Would that apply to opinions as well? =P

>Deception
Maybe, but Wordblood said that trying to make a Deva serve two purposes would require massive upgrades before it yielded any returns.
>"That sounds to me like an attempt to make our new deva serve two jobs, my lady. A deva whose Element was Culture or the like would develop powers in that area, yes, but that wouldn't be what it's for. It would need to be upgraded considerably before it had anything very useful."

If we want a Deception soul to help us do anything but see we should probably save that for another Aide or some kind of social purpose.

>>71087
Yeah... Noticed right after I posted *facepalm*

>Seeing soul of Reality
... Huh. That... would work great, if we can use it =/ it might be too specific, but even if it is we could use Reality as a noble deva for our seeing soul.
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No. 71090 ID: 1c60e6

Hm... Such a seeing soul would be good at detecting anyone actively messing with Reality nearby, and it would definitely register Titans - but how good would it be at detecting Gods and Exalts unless they do something?

Having a Reality element would probably give a hefty bonus to our Wyldshaping. On the other hand, being realer than real (to an even larger degree than Titans usually are) might leave other people ghostly in comparison - We'd probably increase our density a fair bit, for one thing. And maybe we'd become totally unable to spot illusions, like not even registering someone's trying to deceive us.

I kind of picture a Seeing Soul of Reality as a brutish-looking Cyclops - such a realistic fellow has no business hovering - with, of course, black stripes, to go with the Raccoon theme...
A Seeing Soul of Potential would probably just be an eye with butterfly wings, though. And a small raccoon tail ;)
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No. 71091 ID: 1c60e6

>>71088
Truth is kind of related to reality - a Reality Deva could probably have a Truth-based Noble.
Hm, I'm thinking Truth, Substance, Order...
And a Seeing Soul of Potential might have Nobles like Utility, Danger, Talent and Choices.
What Nobles would a Seeing Soul of Truth have?
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No. 71092 ID: cee89f

>>71090
I was about to suggest 'essence' before remembering that was changed to Soul Force... Hmm... I'd say that Exalts and gods are more "real" than most other things... at least from how Kairosa described how 'real' something is. There aren't many elements for seeing souls (that i can think of) that would be guaranteed to detect Gods/Exalts unless they did something anyway, and those that can would probably work better for other purposes.

I don't think we should try and force a single deva to fulfill several different purposes unless we think of something particularly clever, since we can make more devas later if need be.
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No. 71093 ID: ef34de

>>71091
>What Nobles would a Seeing Soul of Truth have?
Probably stuff like Discovery, Information, Curiosity, Lies (it's opposed noble), Stories, etc.
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No. 71109 ID: 5d121c

>>71053
Paradox doesn't automatically mean temporal paradox. There are plenty of different types of it.

It would "intrude" equally on Kairosa and Wordblood. The concept fits both. It would also probably fit whatever Saulanna's element might be.

Maybe it would be better to call it something else. How about a stealth deva with impossibility as an element? Maybe a bit broader than a deva of paradox, but in the same vein. People just don't try to find things where those things don't fit. You couldn't wish for better stealth than that. And yet it seems like the perfect thing for a Titan to do.

I just called it paradox since time, language and paradox fit so well together as a theme.

>power

Same as energy, will, etc. That's what all devas already are made of. Doesn't make sense as an element.
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No. 71114 ID: 82b704

>Impossibility
That is a bit better. And Paradox would likely be a Noble under Impossibility. However... I can't help but feel that is an even more troublesome element to have around. I dunno how exactly, though.

>Power
I think it would work fine, it sorta encompasses energy and will but its different and broad enough to not cause that problem. Especially as a seeing soul it would be sensitive to titans and gods, in another purpose the element would be far less meaningful. I mean imagine what a feeding soul of power or a warrior of power would be like. Strong but one dimensional. Seeing is the perfect compliment to that element.

I think having not-obvious relationships between our elements and purposes will be a hallmark of all our devas. Every combination will be tempered to emphasize balance and broad function. I'd like to see our souls done this way, in this order:
>Stealth-Awareness
>Warrior-Emotion
&