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No. 62615 ID: 5bf190

>>62603

Alright, so: Titans are super ridiculous powerful. Almost anything that it is possible to do, most Titans can do.

Each individual Titan, then, has their own particular nature: Autochthon is the Great Maker, Gaia does Life, the Ebon Dragon is the original Creature of Darkness, et cetera. Having a particular nature confers certain disadvantages: if you gave Gaia a steam engine she would go WHUH WHAT IS THIS and break it by accident or something, because anything synthetic is antithetical to her nature. But contrariwise, within the bounds of their particular nature, they can do literally anything, possible or not.

For an example from the Exalted source material: time is unbreakable. You can bend it to make time go faster or slower, or you can skip ahead, but you can't go back. What was done remains done. This is the ultimate order, the ultimate hierarchy: one moment follows another. But what ho, the one example of the past being messed with comes from She Who Lives In Her Name, who as the Principle of Hierarchy is specifically bound to these concepts. By destroying part of herself, she released flames which retroactively burnt things from existence from the moment they had come into existence. It was a subversion of her nature, which is why it was a self-violent act, but nevertheless part of her nature and so something that she, but not another Titan, was capable of doing in defiance of its impossibility.

So Saulanna can potentially do anything, with enough Titan's Will, if her eventual nature as a Titan encompasses whatever impossible thing she wants to do. And if said impossible ability is not countered by another Titan's impossible ability? But then it would probably just be a question of which Titan is stronger.
Expand all images
>>
No. 62620 ID: bf54a8

>>62613
well once tattooed our ability to GET titan's will would be basically gone, it would take AGES to get enough to do anything about the tats.
>>
No. 62630 ID: 44f93b

>>62620
I'm not in favor of getting the tattoos or anything, but your specific complaint is wrong.

The tattoos would essentially lock Saulanna's form- preventing us from spending TW to modify her body (so beauty increases would be out, for example). Also, the tattoos might arrange themselves to reveal our titanic nature.

None of that would stop us from getting TW, directly.
>>
No. 62632 ID: cee89f

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62630
There's also the potential risk that, if we go, the tattoos won't do jack, the Lunars will notice, and they will become suspicious. The real danger in that one is that we have NO IDEA what they would assume or how they'd react, but in almost all cases it would be bad.
>>
No. 62645 ID: f2c20c

Well, yeah. We're not getting tattoos. They would be really bad for us in pretty much every way.
>>
No. 62647 ID: dd287a

besides, we need a beauty increase at somepoint anyway, that diplomat lady has a higher rating than us, this will NOT STAND
>>
No. 62690 ID: cee89f

>>62647
That might just be the clothes. I am not ashamed to say that that dress/corset/thing is hot =3
>>
No. 62707 ID: 0426cd

I see a number of suggestions flying around taking only the element itself into account. If my understanding is correct (and do correct me if it is not) this is a bit of an oversight. We are specifically creating a feeding soul. All our feeding so far has been consumptive with souls and texts utterly devoured. Creating a feeding soul based on civilization, for example, won't just give us a soul with civilization-themed and oriented powers. (Though it will do that.) It will result in a devourer of civilization, making civilization our main power source. That's not to say we'll automatically turn into Ma-Ha-Suchi. It'll also be in our interest to seed and nourish civilizations before the harvest. Whether we'll feed in a ravenous, all-consuming frenzy or in a more careful, sustainable fashion will be our choice, after all.

Interpeting the suggestions so far in this light:

Devourer of Civilization: Lunars have long been in the civilization-seeding business, and Creation holds plenty of dysfunctional civilization to devour. Thematically it seems to fit well with our archeologist past and Wordblood's communication. Do we want to be deeply involved with the civilizations of Creation?
Devourer of Desire: This seems like it could turn creepy fast, regardless of whether we do this in a crass or complicated way. Feeding upon people's desires is what the fair folk do. Do we want to take after them?
Devourer of Light: So far we've spent all of our time in the shadows. And with a death hero as our vassal and the Dragon's shadow one of the major players of the world this seems likely to continue. Do we wish to hunt the light?
Devourer of Racoons: Cannibalism is always a fine choice. A racoon-rich diet is bound to be good for our souls. But will it be good for our cholesterol?
Devourer of Time: I'm not sure how one goes about feeding on time. Perhaps power will simply accumulate gradually, or perhaps we'll start doing strange things to the way it flows. Given the Dragon's use of such, it could certainly come in handy. Thematically, it fits with our penchant for old things. What does it mean to devour time?
Devourer of Will: Devouring will seems like something that would be frowned upon by people who don't live in names. It seems as if it would bring up some of the same issues as desire. Can we put such hunger to a use we consider constructive?
>>
No. 62709 ID: 44f93b

>>62707
You're oversimplifying it.

The element of the feeder soul is not just what it eats. It's potentially what it works with, makes, eats, is.

>>57924
>>57928
These posts here sort of give an idea of the somewhat unpredictable complexity of how the feeder purpose might interact with elements.

Additionally- the purpose of the feeder isn't even just to consume / produce energy. It's meant to regulate and manage energy as well.
>>
No. 62711 ID: 629257

>>62707
>devourer
But here's the thing: while a feeding soul of, say, the civilization element could perhaps consume that in some way, it doesn't have to. They aren't just about eating mortal souls, they are producers of titans will by any available means. It isn't about feeding on things it's about feeding us. It may just help us grow stronger around civilization, and gain more power as it spreads and grows. A soul or power related to the feeders element should give a greater return, but it wouldn't matter nearly as much as the raw power involved.

I think what we should be looking for are elements not only in our theme, but that don't overlap with the aspects of other titans or the gods. I'm not sure what the danger is there, anything from being less effective to getting those beings direct attention. But I'd rather not risk finding out.
>>
No. 62713 ID: 3dd855

>>62711
I see absolutely no reasons why Saulanna should care about any overlap between her souls and that of other Titans (and gods, but don't count because Saulanna is so far above them, metaphysically -- except for the Incarna, but their really weird). Everything is going to be expressed through the lens of Saulanna, after all, and the aspects of other Titans are expressed through the lens of those other Titans. There is nothing to be fought over, no finite pie that must be split between Titans. Why should having souls with similar Elements somehow inhibit Saulanna from attracting attention from other Titans? And, furthermore, why should Saulanna care at all?
>>
No. 62717 ID: cee89f

>>62707
Jukashi has stipulated that Feeding Souls can also gain power through things SPREAD by the user - For example, if our feeding soul was based on Death, we could gain power by committing genocide (a la Abyssals) or by 'consuming' death to bring people back to life. A Raccoon feeder could devour raccoons, or increase their population by a significant margin. A light feeder could consume light, or glow brightly.

Wordblood has consumed in part because he is the very concept of Communication (which books essentially are) so he's essentially drawing that essence back into himself. If he were a feeding deva, he could also gain power by, for example, creating the Internet.

...

...Wait.

...Oh my gooooooooooods WE'RE GONNA MAKE THE INTERNET!! =D =D =D WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTA-
>>
No. 62718 ID: 3dd855

>>62717
The Internet was already created. It got destroyed (via explosion, cannibalization, decay, mind-jacking, devoured, polymorphed, etc.).

Also, it is worthless in a non-developed society.
>>
No. 62719 ID: 44f93b

>>62717

Titan of Communication + Civilization = Titan of the internet?

...makes a shocking amount of sense, really. We bring in a new age of civilization, unparallelled communication and connectiveness, and rules over it as a goddess in unchallengeable in her element. We both better the world, and secure our position by making ourself indispensable to it.

>worthless in a non-developed society.
That's why we build a developed society. Out of magic, libraries, racoons, whatever. There's no need to recreate our tubes and screens model to the letter.
>>
No. 62721 ID: 4a328b

>>62719
I don't know that civilization enters into it...

Communication + TUBES, all you need for the internet

A deva of the CONDUIT element--tubes, pipes, fountains...
>>
No. 62722 ID: cee89f

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62718
Then it's not impossible and we can RE-make it!
We now have a legitimate goal, and another reason to pick Civilization for our feeding soul. S*** just got REAL O_O

>>62719
Sounds like a plan! WHO'S WITH ME?! =D
>>
No. 62727 ID: 629257

Seriously though, Wordblood isn't a feeding soul. I don't think we can change that.

...Can we?
>>
No. 62728 ID: 44f93b

>>62721
Well there's reason we can't pick up more devas as we go that fit the theme and facilitate our purpose as we go.

Also- people who wanted to build a library? We're essentially setting out to build a world-wide, magically networked one.

>>62727
I'm going to assume we could, but he wouldn't be Wordblood anymore afterwards. (I also kind of suspect something like rebuilding existing Devas would be a lot more expensive than conceiving new ones).

It seems a poorly advised course of action, to me.
>>
No. 62730 ID: a0c71d

I'm really not quite sure what you fellows mean by Civilization, to be honest.

Do you mean, like, social/cultural development? Because, I have to say since I'm studying anthropology, the hierarchical view of primitive to civilized fell out of favour in like, the eighties. And if I did allow it, it would be more like Culture, and it would refer to like art and language and ritual and such, and be dangerously close to Wordblood.

Or do you mean structural development, like the creation of bureaucracy, division of labour, building cities and governments? That would be more like... Structure, or Order.

Technological development? That'd be more Technology, or Artifice or something.

A blend of all the above would be spreading the net kinda wide.

I'm not certain I approve of "Civilization" in any case. I mean, you can make a case for it, and you do have one canonical Titan who's clearly got a city inside him somehow, but, as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form. Like, Wordblood is Communication, but that's sort of too refined a term. You know what it's going for, though. The idea of words having power, or the spiritual significance of a person's voice, is very old and universal. "Civilization"... not really feeling that, so much? It's just not...

... Y'know.

...

... primordial.
>>
No. 62732 ID: 34d817

>>62730
>It's just not...
>... Y'know.
>... primordial.
Good thing they're Titans now instead of Primordials, then. Heh.

>as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form.
Seriously, though, let's take a look at your list of sample elements from >>59000, where this was discussed.
>Gaia: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wood, ??? and ???
>Autochthon: Steam, Metal, Lightning, Oil, Crystal, Smoke
Okay, Gaia and Autochthon are all physical things/reactions, nothing surprising here. These Elements seem to fall into the general category of "stuff", which is as Elemental as you can get.

>He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word: Words (duh), Blood (duhh), Thought, Legacy, Beauty, Creation, others?
>The Dragon's Shadow: Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change, Death, ???
But these two Titans are significantly more interesting and flexible. Some of their Elements move away from "Stuff" and more toward "Qualities", or even "Processes".

In particular, I'm thinking on Legacy and Deception here. How can you have Legacy without a past to hand down, and parties to do the handing? It's an action, a type of interaction. Likewise with Deception- it's an interaction, not a stand-alone item; it can only exist when there are two sapient parties in play and meaningful communication between them. As Elements, they've moved away from being wholly independent things and toward something more like fundamental components of a larger system.

Likewise with Civilization. It's not some kind of elemental "stuff", no; it doesn't have to be, because Elements are not limited to that. They can define "processes"; in this case, the Element proposed is something like the definition of "groups of beings bringing organization to themselves and their world".

And I can't speak for others' perceptions, but I'd consider that pretty primordial anyway.
>>
No. 62734 ID: 9b155d

When I think Civilization, I think it's something between culture and structure. Or perhaps a blend of the two. It by definition is a place of culture, but whereas my personal perceptions of culture as a force is something fluid and changing, I see civilization as less so.

When I think of culture as a force, I think the ideas of the people, the adaptions they make and the way they change just from interacting with other cultures.

When I think civilization as a force, I think faceless legions marching in waves, civilians toiling away, towering solid buildings. And I see it surrounded by the chaos of more wild untamed lands. Civilization as a force to me is like a wave of urban society.

I doubt this is how others have been imagining it, but as a possible element of a titan, this is how I see it as a possibility. It's a specific type of structure or order, one which has a relationship with culture, as each permutation of the force has a symbiotic relationship with at least one permutation of the force of culture, and the culture(s) it has are most definitely not receptive to others. I assume Szoreny probably has a Deva with the element of a forest, so I'll compare it to a forest having a selection of trees that define it and make it qualify as a forest, and those combination of trees and other plants may effect the way other plants influence the forest. The combination would make life unhabitable to certain other trees if they were to have their seeds planted within', some trees would flourish(adding to the whole of the forest), others would steal the niche of some of the trees as steadily replace them, while others may be poisonous to the forest. But the forest is not any of the individual trees, even if it's composed of only one type of tree, just like it's not the packs of wolves or the migratory birds that dwell there at any given moment. Each of those might be a force of their own, but the force Szoreny represents i the slow ever continual encroachment of a forest, not any of the individual forces within'.

That was a bit longer of an analogy then I intended, but I hope I was able to properly express my point that the forces primordials represent often are a force that contains other forces. And while I certainly don't know specifically how you're determining the elements of other primordials, I'd imagine The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy don't all have a Deva whose element is order or structure as opposed to something more specific. I suppose I view Civilization as a choice as something like Wordblood is communication, but more specifically words.
>>
No. 62736 ID: cee89f

>>62730
I'm going to assume that, since things like deception and communication are valid, to be primal it only has to exist as long as there is life intelligent enough to do either or both of those things.

Here's the way I see it: civilization refers to community, the growth of community, the relationship between members of that community, etc etc... And if we widen the definition enough it could refer to things like Wolf Packs.

Keep in mind: While popular consciousness is that Civilization refers to advanced societies, Civilization also refers to:
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4.
the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5.
cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.

4 and 5 are the important ones for this point. Civilization isn't just about towering skyscrapers, the internet and industrial revolutions: it also refers to the advancement of thought and culture. Thought advances in all living creatures, all the time. Wolf packs exist because the mind of the wolf evolved to the point where it was intelligent enough to hunt in groups, and they're able to communicate because they can LEARN how to from birth. IE, their thought processes become more refined as time goes on.

Granted, that's a stretch. A veeeery big stretch. But considering that we're literally an embodiment of order in the universe, I'd say a stretch is close enough.

>>62732
... What he said. >.>

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62739 ID: 9718f3

Civilization seems like a stretch to me too, to be honest. It's more of the end-product, in my mind. If you want what it has, you have to shoot for a more fundamental concept, one that allows for civilizations to exist, perhaps. It would fit the feeder soul's role as manager of energy supplies and the like.

Sadly I currently have no ideas due to lack of sleep. Communion maybe? Eh.
>>
No. 62742 ID: f2c20c

What about a Feeder of Souls?
>>
No. 62746 ID: cee89f
File 135145761920.png - (6.41KB , 207x203 , 126075124944.png )
62746

>>62742
Seriously?

Mate, we already get energy from souls. We don't need a feeder soul to specifically feed on them! Besides, we're already having morality debates over whether or not it's okay to eat those ghosts!
>>
No. 62748 ID: a0c71d

>>62732
>Legacy and Deception

"Legacy" is the marks left by the past. A valley is the legacy left by a river on the mountainside, or limestone is the legacy of generations of tiny creatures dying under the sea. Deception, similarly, is whenever something is made to look other than it is: a stick insect, the reflection of the moon in the water, et cetera. At least, that's how I was using them.

>>62734
>The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy

Well, the form a Titan takes doesn't necessarily draw directly from the Elements that compose them. I mean, indirectly it does, of course; but for example, The Ebon Dragon takes the form of a Dragon, yet that doesn't require him to have a soul that has a Dragon Element. He takes that form because of the cumulative metaphorical resonance that is best represented by something that is slithery and snakey and powerful.

>>62734
>>62736

As far as I can express it (words are sort of failing me), you guys' intent with "Civilization" could perhaps be described as "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". And that would have the mythic quality necessary: it's the old Gilgamesh-and-Enkidu, hun-and-po, superego-and-id, dog-and-wolf dichotomy that has a strong symbolic resonance. I'd allow that.

So long as you're aware, though, that that concept of Civilization would fall under the domain of the Unconquered Sun, and maybe a few other entities like Autochthon; and it would be implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia and suchlike. Of course, that doesn't mean they're necessarily hostile (UCS and Luna are choicest bros, after all), but it'd still be significant.

And, perhaps more importantly, it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.
>>
No. 62750 ID: cee89f

Having a voice in our heads tempering our more wild natures might be useful...

...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing. What about Knowledge or Information?
>>
No. 62751 ID: 44f93b

Okay... Hmm. Put in that light, I think I'm souring on civilization. Going back to time. That works with everything, and being able to reskill sounds awesome.
>>
No. 62752 ID: b24894

The elements and souls thing is a little confusing to me. But that's okay, because I only really need to know one thing.

Jukashi, what combination of souls, elements, titan's will expenditures, moon powers, power words, skills, and attributes will get us Raccoonbending? Since Saulanna's spirit shape is a Raccoon, would this be the kind of thing we need to wait for a Fetich Soul for? Raccoons aren't all that... 'elemental' I guess, but they're elemental to Saulanna!
>>
No. 62753 ID: 34d817

>>62750
>...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing.
As Jukashi just pointed out, this kind of "opposition" doesn't mean that the forces involved will be inherently hostile to one another, or even stop us from having good relations. It does mean that we'll never grow into a Luna-clone, but we weren't going for that anyway. In fact, of the four examples of dichotomy he gave, no less than three of them are examples of something necessary in order to get the most out of the other- opposed but complementary forces. In that light, I don't see implicit opposition to Gaia or Luna as a problem.

More of a problem is this:
>it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.
This sounds ominous- but at the same time, the phrasing makes it clear that while it's a risk, it's not an insurmountable one. And I think that resolving it comes right back to the above; it's all about the spin you put on things. It's not necessarily matter and antimatter here; it's potentially Gilgamesh and Enkidu- closest of friends. Hun and po- two halves of what makes a full human.

Lunar and civilization souls, perhaps?
>>
No. 62754 ID: cee89f

>>62753
Jukashi, can we get a ruling (or, if a ruling isn't possible, word from wordblood) on whether or not raising our Hero's Soul into a Deva is something we can actually do at some point?

Because that with a Civ deva would do wonders for a sorta Id-SuperEgo dichotomy.
>>
No. 62757 ID: 4d5b2d

>>62754

No, you can't have a ruling. Neither Wordblood nor Saulanna herself have any real knowledge of how Hero Souls work, so it would be metaknowledge.
>>
No. 62761 ID: 4411c7

I'm sorry, but every time I see this image
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/src/134433101734.png
I can only think that the UCS is really angry at Saulanna's terrible blowjob.
>>
No. 62763 ID: beeca1

>>62761
Given Lunars' stereotypical solution to everything and Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio, I originally thought that was exactly what the image meant in context.


I still do, and nothing will convince me otherwise.
>>
No. 62764 ID: b6edd6

On the subject of random thoughts, I keep reading UCS as GCS, which is short for giant cave spider. I have perhaps played too much Dwarf Fortress.
>>
No. 62767 ID: 4411c7

I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.
>>
No. 62769 ID: 34d817

>>62763
>Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio
That's terrible!

We should eat a woman good at sex before attempting to sleep with anyone.
>>
No. 62771 ID: cee89f

>>62769

First reaction: How much do we really need to know? Insert A into B, repeat until done >.>

Second: >eat a woman good at sex...
*snrk*

>>62767

At this point we probably will. But as Wordblood pointed out, there's going to be a lot of choices regarding this feeding soul - what element it's tied to, what it does, what it will be for.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62773 ID: 44f93b

>get good at sex
Worldliness doesn't cover that? :V

>I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.
To be fair, the pace at which we dither around discussing possibilities versus taking action really isn't up to us.
>>
No. 62776 ID: cee89f

>>62773
...

Come to think of it, what exactly ARE we doing in the short term? Going down into the dungeon, i believe?

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62778 ID: 44f93b

>>62776
That, and then potentially followed by another bout of agonizing over soul eating if Saulanna stops to give us a chance to argue over it, eating it anyways, and then making the feeder soul. (Actually, wait, I can't remember if we still have enough TW to make the deva without feeding. The agonizing might come after, not before).
>>
No. 62781 ID: bf54a8

we have just enough to make the feeder first. so hopefully the lightshow will be kept down to a minimum.
>>
No. 62842 ID: 888f37

>>62748
>>implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia
What about Civilization, not as a an opposition to Nature, but as an equal but different entity. A Civilization is a living breathing thing. It hungers, it lusts, it grows. It fights it's rivals, it learns and it adapts. I think that's a very primordial and conceptual view of Civilization, yet one that isn't inherently opposed to Luna (might still possibly be to Gaia, but meh).
>>
No. 62843 ID: 9718f3

Obviously we should make a feeder soul of Harmony. Obviously.
>>
No. 62845 ID: 3338b5

>Deva of harmony
...so basically then we'd shift from being a lunar to a harmonixer?
>>
No. 62847 ID: b3f65a

>>62843
I need to ask you WHY it's obvious. So no, it's NOT obvious.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will
>>
No. 62849 ID: 9718f3

>>62847
You rather don't need to ask me. But you did, so I'll answer: I was being sarcastic.

However, it isn't a terrible concept. Harmony can be seen as the collection of smaller pieces working in parallel. Not necessarily cooperating, but at least moving in the same direction. In music, notes or chords. In nature, prey and predator. In society, prince and pauper. It doesn't necessarily have to be idyllic, or for every facet to compliment every other, so long as the system works, as a whole. It would be Luna/UCS neutral, and fairly ideal for a soul meant to manage resources among our souls. Fits our actions up till now decently as well.

But then, there's a bunch of ambiguity with the definitions of "Harmony", so whatever.
>>
No. 62852 ID: 888f37

>>62849
Actually, I think Harmony is one of the most antithetical things against Luna suggest so far. Luna is the iconoclast, the rebel, the outsider. Harmony, as you describes it is far more in opposition to Luna than most other things.
>>
No. 62864 ID: 2eac65

"Desire" and "WIll" are pretty similar. Both of them are something that someone wants, and chooses to work towards. At least, that's how I meant it when I suggested Desire. Perhaps there's a more accurate word to use for it?

Someone was worried that choosing "Desire" might lead to Saulanna losing control of it, but it's not so much about feeling desire as it is about commanding it, and making it do subject to Saulanna's will, which is something she has been very keen on doing. She would be a metaphorical lock and key which chooses when Desire is fulfilled, and when it has to wait.

>Harmony
That's a good concept, but I don't think it would suit our Feeding Soul very well.
>>
No. 62865 ID: 03ee4d

You do have to remember to save some Elements for later.
>>
No. 62873 ID: cee89f

>>62865
Not really - we only get one element for this soul, no matter how many we suggest, so we'll still have all these others later.
>>
No. 62876 ID: 03ee4d

>>62873

What I mean is, some Elements may be better used with another Purpose, so you shouldn't "waste" them. Like maybe some day all the Deathlords and their armies will burst loose again, or the Dragon's Shadow will get super mad at your for some reason, and then you'll wish you'd saved the Light element for a holy warrior deva instead of using it to feed with? Or Desire might be better as a seducty social deva, or Civilization for a crafty-makey-buildstuff deva. That sort of thing.
>>
No. 62878 ID: 42ace1

>>62876
This seems to imply that once Saulanna creates a Soul with some Element, she cannot create another Soul with the same Element. Is that correct?
>>
No. 62880 ID: 34d817

>>62878
Not only that, but devas will murder each other if they have significantly overlapping Purposes and/or Elements. See >>57785. They're possessive about it, likely all the more so because even if the Lord devas of fairly similar elements get along they're likely to have Noble or Common devas later which don't.
>>
No. 62881 ID: 3338b5

>>62880
And they might beat each other to death if their elements and/or purpose come into conflict too greatly with one another.

We're going to have a delicate balance of building an inner kingdom that doesn't suffer either from ideological overlap or opposition.
>>
No. 62886 ID: b6edd6

Because it is getting to close to voting time and I didn't really say it in one place before, here is my argument in favor of Will as the element of our feeding soul:

(Theoretical) advantages of Will:
- First and foremost, our main goal in creating a feeding soul is to have a better way to generate and manage Titan's Will. You might object at this point by saying that the name 'Titan's Will' might be a metaphor, but names in this setting have power, so the chances are quite slim that Will would not influence Titan's Will*. Boosting our new soul's primary purpose is one of the most useful things we can do for it for obvious reasons. Once we have established that an element of Will helps processes relating to Titan's Will, it is fairly straightforward that directly boosting our new soul's primary purpose is just about the most useful sort of boost there is.
- Will, both as an element of humanity and as itself in particular is suited for retaining our connection to humanity and sanity in general.
- The previous point is especially relevant because every Moon Hero and Sun Hero (presumably including ourself) suffer from a titanic curse that causes them to periodically lose their self-control**. Power to boost willpower would therefore be extremely useful both for ourself and for other Heroes we might gain as allies.
- Will would also help a lot with convincing and not being convinced in social combat, for obvious reasons.

* We should of course ask Wordblood about this to be sure, but I am confident that this should work to at least some extent. If I can ask Wordsblood that question right here that would be great.
** This eventually got so bad that it was the main cause of the end of the Solar's rule of the world.
>>
No. 62887 ID: cee89f

Anyone wanna help me draft up pros and cons for this list?

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light
Cons: Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

>>62886
Technically, they're two different things: what caused the fall was the pride brought on by the Great Curse, and Limit is one of the ways said Curse manifests.
>>
No. 62889 ID: 3338b5

>>62887
I'll add a few:

Civ
Con: pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire:
Con: A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route. I'd prefer to avoid that.

Light
Pro: Actually, since we could potentially feed off of light, or making it, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva.

Time
I'd suspect the destroyed calender would make temporal manipulation easier, actually. And there's no need to consume time, literally. I kind of imagined the feeding process more like that of a whale- letting the sea of time drift past, eating the energy-krill of individual moments as we encounter them. Feeding on the passage of time. Aggressively consuming pieces of history (like balefire, or what J described She Who Lives In Her Name doing) would be a deliberate, advanced act.
>>
No. 62892 ID: 03ee4d

I feel I should clarify: I said that the rate of TW gain was modified by spreading/feeding on an Element, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely or even mostly linked to it; it's just a possible bonus. Just as the Element can provide some abilities unrelated to feeding, so too does the Purpose endow the deva with powers unrelated to their Element. Every feeding soul will be able to make TW just be collecting and refining general magical energy.

Unless you went for some wacked-out crazy stupid Element like Void or something.

The modification to the rate of gain from something like Civilization "spreading civilization", or Light creating Light, will be quite minor on the small scale for now, unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element. Mostly, it'll affect the degree that the Feeder helps with magical Power, not TW. It's only in the theoretical distant future that major Titan's Will gains would be rendered up for turning the world into some elemental utopia. The Element is mostly to influence potential powers, personality, future subsouls, and so on.
>>
No. 62896 ID: 34d817

>>62892
>unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element
This hadn't even occurred to me, but does that mean that Civilization would help maximize our gains from eating the city gods that seem to pop up in every Exalted settlement of significant size?
>>
No. 62904 ID: f2c20c

>>62896
Wouldn't that piss off the greater pantheon?
>>
No. 62908 ID: 34d817

>>62904
Probably- but I didn't say it was a good idea, just wondered if it would work. Besides, if I've grasped the setting correctly everything has basically gone to hell in Creation and there's not a lot of stability or enforcement to be had these days.
>>
No. 62909 ID: cee89f

>>62889
The problem is that we would have to wrestle against the dragon's shadow's will in order to influence time how we want. Since this particular soul is gonna be geared to feeding rather than mental combat, it probably would lose to a titan that is so much older and so much more powerful than us.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one.
>>
No. 62913 ID: e297bb

Well, I was rather busy, and I'm back to comment further. There's been a lot of good discussion while I was gone. I actually laughed pretty hard at some of the jokes and references. ^_^ This is why I enjoy this quest-board.

>>62256
>>62263
>>62369
>>/quest/464719
>>/quest/464720
>>62730

I'm going to make an argument in defense of my idea of the element of "culture" here. Mainly these are in comparison to what seemed to be the old main pick of "civilization".

Any time that a group of people gather together for an extended time, a culture is created by that group. That culture is the mores, morals, ethos, and bonds that bind the people together, and govern how they interact, as well as any outward signs of those bonds, such as what heroes are held up in their stories, songs, and plays - if the culture is long lasting enough.

Obviously for some this brings to mind the fancy wining and dining and ritualistic behavior of "high society". However it extends down to the way that a certain family handles the circumstances they find themselves in, or the group dynamics in a life boat from a sinking ship.

A culture of people can build a "civilization", as in laws, and bureaucracies, technologies, roads, a nation with defined property and borders. However, while the office-culture of a particular law-firm or lunch-room-clique can indeed be called a culture, I doubt it could be called a civilization. As such, I do not think that "culture" is as limited as "civilization" is.

About the only time I think you could make a case for a civilization absent a culture is when you have "the ruins of a lost civilization". This is basically a corpse, that is then often built on again... as we see from the current location in character. You might be able to make the case for a large fey freehold.

And since you can describe a large tribe of Barbarians as a culture, I doubt that this would put Saulanna in opposition to Luna.

We also want to eliminate the surge of soulfire from feeding. Showing restraint in how you eat, and not splashing evidence of the meal all over are reflected in manners, which is a part of many cultures. Showing restraint when Saulanna feeds, and eliminating the soulfire are two goals that we seem to be in consensus on. That is how culture, and feeding are related to one another, and our goals for Saulanna's development.

Yes, I said that I think that we could use the Deva in the upcoming social battle. I think that some elements are more likely to help than others, and more likely to be of more help. This isn't my main point, but something I think we shouldn't completely ignore.

All that said, culture, much like civilization, does depend on language, communication, words. I think it's different enough not to cause problems. However, to paraphrase his position, Jukashi thinks that this is so close to words/communications as to impinge on Wordblood's territory, and increase strife. Also, it makes Wordblood uncomfortable, even after explanation, and that has been established in character

That is enough reason for me to seek other possibilities. I like some of the major ones others have brainstormed, and will comment on those separately, below.

Too long to read: I think "culture" is better than "civilization" for a lot of reasons, but I'm willing to move on. This is mostly because of what Jukashi said here, and Wordblood said IC.


>>62516
>Raccoonbending
Okay, that's really really funny, but I say... no. Nice Avatar reference though.


>>62886
>Will
Will speaks to me of mental strength, and the ability to resist or to push on. One of the things that I want for this Feeding Deva is some conceptual connection to restraint, though I do not think that "restraint" itself is an appropriate element.

I think this Feeding Deva would be very generally useful. Further, it also seems connected both to what little we know / have established about Saulanna's take on feeding, but also seems connected to her personality in general, both before and after the mind-wipe.

So far I like this one best, and think we should definitely ask Wordlbood and Peregrine about it.

>>62390
>>62864
>Desire
Since the person to suggest "Desire" said that perhaps there was a better word to describe what he was going for, perhaps "Determination" is what the original commentator was looking for?

A Feeding Deva who's powers resolve around pursuing that which it has set itself to, whether to feed on a certain stubborn morsel, or resist letting it's hunger injure the greater good.

But, as HalfTangible already said in >>/quest/467665, it's so similar to Will, that I think that'd be talking about the same concept. I'd support either Will or Determination, personally, and I think I like the flavor of Will a bit better.

>>62472
>Time
Okay, I think this is actually pretty interesting. The ability to re-allocate TW spent on abilities that were once useful, but aren't any longer, or that we liked but turned out to be a bad idea after all, sounds very powerful. Even more so if we can quickly and dynamically re-allocate power. That said, we can probably get lots of fun and interesting powers, eventually, with all sorts of different combinations, if we think in a clever way.

>Light
Hmm. This might let us more easily feed on that soul-fire, which is one of the reasons we're going after a Feeding Deva. That said, I think it'd be better to save for later, if we do use it.

All the Incarnae shed light (sun, moon, stars, red sun), and so does the green sun Liger. So, I think it would be a good idea to ask Wordblood about it, even if we intend to use "Light" later, rather than now.

>>/quest/467615
>>/quest/467616
>>/quest/467617
> Love \ Bonds \ Connections \ Nurturing
Hmm. I like the idea of one of Saulanna's Devas nurturing, or spreading love, but I don't think it makes sense for this particular purpose. I'd rather save this kind of element for a soul designed for a more specific purpose, like a diplomacy Deva, or a Deva for making new forms of life.

>Knowledge
If "Culture" is too close to "Words" then I don't see how "Knowledge" isn't.

-----

I'll try to keep brain storming, but I thought I should address the above ideas first.

-----

>>62707
>Ma-Ha-Suchi
>>62896
>eating city gods
I'd think eating cities would make Saulanna rather like Amoth City-Smiter personally.

-----

>>62887
Light
Con: Possible Overlap with all incarnae, and possibly Liger, the Green Sun.
Pro: Possibly less overlap with any than sunlight, moonlight, or starlight.
>>
No. 62921 ID: 38cd76

Civilization, Bonds, and Light are all concepts I can add my support to, whatever those ends may be.

Light has a myriad of uses. It signifies truth and eliminates deception. It can be either cleansing or searing, and it is an element of finding things. I like this as a deva, I'm not sure it is best suited element for a feeder soul though.

Bonds is another one I like. Bonds of friendship, love and trust, bonds of enmity and hate, bonds of servitude, bonds of loyalty. The different kinds of bonds out there are endless. Again, I'm not certain on that one.

I think my favorite is Civilization, and it gets my final vote. Civilization contains love, poetry, art, and beauty, but it also contains war and tactics. It contains bureaucracy and peace, as well as great agriculture, innovation and scientific discoveries. All in all, it is a symbol of power, order, and creation.

There is good overlap with our needs as a Feeder Soul I believe.

Really, civilization seems like it would have traces of things like love, and peace, and knowledge, and culture and the like already built into it. At the same time, it has potential for war and tactics and the like. But I'm repeating myself now.

Of the three that I like... Civilization, hands down.
>>
No. 62922 ID: f2c20c

What about Souls? A Feeder of Souls?
>>
No. 62925 ID: e297bb

>Bonds

I've been giving this one another think over, and I do like the concept of growth through exploration that the original suggester is working off of. However, Jukashi already said that the element would only have a modifier based on our spreading / being around the element. I doubt that we'd get TW too much quicker for adventuring, or forming relationships. I also don't think that it has the implications that connect it well to "Feeding", or eliminating Soulfire that I was going for.

Though if it would let us consume/sever the bonds that keep potential allies bound to our enemies, this could be incredibly useful in re-aligning social power structures as well.

It's interesting enough to at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

Plus, I haven't investigated the user stamps, but I think it may already have the requisite 3 people supporting it, between both threads, even before I piped in.

>>62921
>Civilization

In post >>62730 Jukashi has already stated that he doesn't like civilization as an element, and may not approve of it at all. The group of commentators has been kind of vague in how it's defined, and seems to be casting too wide a net for the concept. He tried to get us to narrow it down. Structure/Order, Technology or Artifice, Social Development (which he said would wind up being like culture anyway).

You're trying to blend in war/tactics, love, and peace in as well, which is stretching the net further. (Love and peace, and war? Anyone else get a mental image of Vash the Stampeed?)

I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for. I think you're going to need to choose between supporting love, peace, knowledge, culture, and war as the particular element.

>Souls
Okay, based on the analysis of some others, I dismissed this one out of hand, but actually, I have had a thought where this makes some sense.

Each Deva will be making further sub-souls. We'll eventually have a huge world inside of us. As we grow in this way, it could well really ramp up the passive TW production. We'd not only have loads of them around at any given time, but we'd also be spreading this concept as we grow. Further, our diet has included a lot of ghosts thus far, and this could get us some additional TW, to help make our path to power along this rout shorter.

Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

That said, in the long run, being a creature that grows by feeding on and consuming souls isn't likely to do very well in the case for "Please don't destroy us Mr. Invictus... sir..."

If approached from the angle of creating/spreading/containing souls, I think it's an interesting enough concept that we should at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

>>62909
Will:
Pro: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.

As far as the cons go, military training, practicing debate, and fostering a sense of individual responsibility and prerogative could help to increase the strength of will of surrounding cultures.

The mind control aspect does strike a bit truer though. Feeding by consuming the will of others would make us more like the fey, and gaining powers in that direction could be a dangerous path.
>>
No. 62927 ID: 34d817

>>62925
>I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for.
If we go for Civilization at this point we know exactly what to expect: What Jukashi described in >>62748, that being "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". It's a reasonable and useful primordial force, and while there is a lot of excited speculation about what it might be made to do- I'm guilty of some of that myself- those are just potential subsets of the core idea, just like friendship, hatred, or slavery are potential subsets of a Bonds element. This is not trying to make it somehow encompass everything, just thinking about what the concept is made of.
>>
No. 62928 ID: a27919

Make the Element Heroism, we feed off our own awesomeness!
>>
No. 62929 ID: e297bb

>>62927
I read >>62925 as Jukashi adding to the list of ways he'd be willing to interpret "Civilization", aside from the list in >>62730.

If "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness" is actually what you're going for, though, then it's a valid concept to consider. I still think that your mullings are stretching the concept.

Culture, and knowledge... yes, I can definitely see there being some connotations for agriculture or trade based cultures, as well as the idea of the "high society" type of culture. I think that hunter-gatherer cultures would belong to the "wilderness/nature" part of the dichotomy. I'm also not sure that herbalism would necessarily fall on the "civilization" side of knowledge, though civil engineering almost definitely would fall within the connotations connected to this domain.

Tactics and strategy aren't natural, but war is a natural part of human life, and has existed as long as two people, or organizations, have coveted the same thing, and been unable to share in it. Similarly, peace exists any time people are working more in cooperation than opposition, which is also natural for man. Love, and familial bonds are natural to the human condition.

At best, civilization is not opposed to peace, love, war, or bonds of love/friendship/famil, but nature is not opposed to them either. As a result, I don't really think we can count on even connotations of them, due to the "as opposed to nature or wilderness" part.

Keep in mind, if we separate Saulanna from nature, that might well include her own human nature. The group as a whole seems to be trying to avoid that.

I also really don't like the idea of setting up that dissonance that Jukashi was talking about. Saulanna's essence is already partially tied up in the natural, and the wild. I really don't want parts of her fighting against herself.

In the end, my take on "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness" is as follows. Tactics vs valor and loyalty to clan. Bureaucracy against bonds of love and family. Laws and Law Enforcement officers vs willing and natural cooperation. The static beauty of a statue, vs a hill of wildflowers against the backdrop of misty mountains. More positively, it also includes rule of law over rule by strength, and "modern" medicine as opposed to herbalism, or a natural immune system.

While it has some positive connotations, this still smacks of "She Who Lives In Her Name" to me, and the gulags of Autocythonia. I am very leery of this concept for several reasons, and cannot support the formulation of "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness".
>>
No. 62933 ID: cee89f

>Souls

This is a BAD idea. VERY VERY BAD. I am against it with every fiber of my being, and a few fibers from my dog. We are trying to NOT look like evil douchebags. Making a soul that gains power through the absorption of souls is redundant since that's already our primary method of gaining Titan's Will, and any Feeder Soul would be effective enough at absorbing souls, we don't need to make the feeding soul specifically attuned to what we can already eat AND it makes us look evil. Even if we don't go one a soul eating spree, the fact that we COULD, and in fact deliberately CHOSE to be able to do so, makes us look like a major threat to existence itself.

SPREADING souls makes no sense because we would have to spend TW to make souls anyway, meaning that until we have enough power to make the returns worth it, creating new souls is going to be more of a drain than a boon.

>>62925
>Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

...Ok, and this is a positive because? =/ Not trying to be rude here but i honestly don't see why the meat/spirit comparison would matter.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one
>>
No. 62935 ID: e297bb

>>62933
I respect your opinion on this matter. My point is not to support this choice, but that I find it intellectually curious, and want to ask about it, because I think it would give us a broader understanding we could use to debate our other options.

Saulanna is a smart girl, and people keep talking about wanting knowledge. Well, here's a chance to get it.

>Meat/Souls
Oh, that was just a bit of bad humor showing, and a reference to >>57928 . I suppose I shouldn't have made the reference so oblique.
I was simply pointing out, with poor humor, that "souls" seems particularly appropriate for any Deva, not just a feeding deva.

My main point of intellectual curiosity here, is based around the fact that our feeding Deva will be creating sub-souls that will help it with feeding, and we will be creating a huge collection of sub-souls eventually.

I think that being in the presence of these sub-souls could positively influence our TW gain rate. That's the long term strategy aspect.

The short term strategy aspect is even higher efficiency for eating ghosts, which it seems we are already determined to do, at least in the short term.

I recognize the negative implications you've talked about, and that's why I'm not supporting this option, but just want to ask about it.

We're in an info gathering stage, so I figure we should gather info. ^_^

I'll decide what I really support after we have all this info. I think asking about these elements others want, but that I don't support, may help me to make my choice.
>>
No. 62936 ID: 9b155d

>i'm gonna need some help with this one

from your listed advantages

>Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.

From Jukashi
>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

and also

>The interaction between Purpose and Element is ambiguous. As I said, it might be "Feeds on X", but it might also be "Feeds by using X" or "Feeds by spreading X".

> Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element. Similarly, you are made of meat. Thus, you can eat meat! You also use your meat to eat. And, if you eat, you can make more meat. You are a meat creature. It would not be inaccurate to think of a titanic soul in those terms, though - like with humans - there is a lot of complexity added on top of this basic nature.

>Wordblood, for example, as an Aide, is naturally helpful; being based on Communication, he is well-spoken and understanding, and can get upset when he doesn't understand things. Being an Aide and a Communicator, he is prone to provide assistance by explaining things and offering insights. Something similar will apply to any deva.

Feeding on X could be very bad for us in the case of bonds, and these bits make me think that that's one of the most likely things that will happen with a Feeder soul.

>Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element...

And a Deva made of bonds? Might have loyalty issues or usurp our position as the soul this whole thing revolves around.
>>
No. 62937 ID: cee89f

>>62936
Interesting (personally I think it's more likely that a Bonds Deva would have strong loyalties and/or trust issues, but to each their own)

Still gonna wait on Wordblood's word on all of these, but I think I'm set on Bonds.
>>
No. 62938 ID: 9b155d

>>62937
Except all bonds aren't positive, and the moment it bonds with all the other souls better than us and becomes the center of This Titan... well, I don't see Quest reacting well to that.
>>
No. 62939 ID: 63f851

REBIRTH.

(I don't know how to quote across boards, but copy/pasting is a social no-no so I'm just gonna apologize instead. Sorry.)
>>
No. 62940 ID: e297bb

>>62939
You do it like this:

>>/quest/467960
I think that was the post you were looking for, aye?
>>
No. 62942 ID: 9718f3

Guys, some of you have as many as six posts in the thread since the last update. Six. That is a ridiculous number. Please keep the conversation here.
>>
No. 62943 ID: beeca1

>>62942
I'd like to agree with this but note that if they're posting that heavily in the main thread they probably aren't looking here.
>>
No. 62944 ID: f2c20c

This thread is over 1500 posts long!

Can we get a second discussion thread going?
>>
No. 62946 ID: e297bb

Shouldn't we wait until it's OVER 9000? :P
>>
No. 62947 ID: 9718f3

>>62943
I wish that were true, but one of the most frequent contributors to this thread is one of the two with six posts over in the quest thread. Another reached three over there in less than three hours. It's... vexing.
>>
No. 62951 ID: e297bb

>>62947
I presume that I'm the "three in three hours" fellow that you're referring to, and that HalfTangible is one of the fellows with 6.

Generally speaking I'll agree with you that discussions should be brought here, especially based on Jukashi's general request. However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

While I'm trying to move any discussion I think may last a while over here, I don't think replying to a short-term request for clarification over there is a bad thing, in any case.

That said, if I was going to discuss "REBIRTH", any further, or HalfTangible had needed further clarification, I'd bring it over here, especially since I see that the guy suggesting it found his way here.
>>
No. 62952 ID: cee89f

>>62947
>>62951
I try to respond to arguments/points in the actual thread in which they start because some part of me is always paranoid that if i respond in another thread, it'll get completely ignored =( sorry - i'll try and cut down on that from now on.
>>
No. 62953 ID: e297bb

HT: If you ever have a question for me, and want to move the discussion here, just link to my original post, and if I'm reading up on the threads at all, I'll probably catch it. I do occasionally need to disappear, for a variety of reasons.

I'll be happy to move any discussions from the main thread to here with you, unless I think that the responses need to be in the main thread.

In fact, if you guys like, I can delete my follow on posts, and make the clarification on my position here. I could even write up a more thorough reply to "rebirth" as an element, for our new Derpy friend.
>>
No. 62955 ID: 9b155d

>However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

I'd say it's an invitation to pose ideas and ask questions to Wordblood and Peregrin. Almost noone is asking questions, me included to my chagrin(I phrased a question I had about a future Deva as a statement about something I thought could be cool), and instead most people are saying they're voting for things when Wordblood specifically said we shouldn't decide until' getting the advice of the people we have on hand.
>>
No. 62957 ID: f2c20c

>>62954
It got your attention, unlike more polite requests. I'm not apologizing or deleting it.

If anyone should be deleting posts, it's those who have cluttered up the quest thread with huge posts filled with nothing but talking to other suggesters. If you're not going to suggest anything, at least make your post short and to the point, christ. The quest needs no discussion of Derpy Hooves or made-up songs about derp faces, or critique of how someone presents their ideas.
>>
No. 62958 ID: e297bb

>>62955

>>/quest/467608
>Thus, the choice you face is to decide its Element.
>Tell me your thoughts, and I will answer. Peregrin, too, may have valuable opinions to offer.

Yes, he did ask us to tell him our suggestions, but it's in part the way it was done.

The group was asked to come up with ideas, and then present them to Wordlbood for him to comment on. That seems to be a pretty clear call to me to brainstorm those suggestions, and ideas.

So people are giving their thoughts on the subject. This kind of creative environment looses some social conventions, in order to allow for greater freedom of thought, and expression of that thought. We get more ideas that way.

Normally that kind of brainstorming and discussion should take place here, but I think that now that it's explicitly idea time, in the main thread, people feel freer to have these discussions there.

I acknowledge that there is indeed some "voting" going on, and I agree that may have some unfortunate implications... but my hope is, that this will just lead to emphasizing certain explanations.

As far as my case in specific goes, in >>/quest/467935 I made one big post with questions I wanted to ask before a relevant decision was made.

After that, except for one side-comment, I was just quickly dealing with clarifications, or follow ons.

If those of you who have delt with me politely want, I can try to shift some of the clarifications here... but I don't think that my posts are really that much of an issue. Also, if HalfTangible was unclear on my intent, Jukashi might be as well, which is another reason I wanted my clarifications in the same thread I made that one initial post in.

----

>>62957
So you double down, and go so far as to blaspheme. Very well. I will be explicitly disregarding your wishes.

I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...
>>
No. 62959 ID: 9b155d

>>62958
>I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...

I'm sure the quest author who has said he doesn't like the quest thread getting cluttered with discussion would absolutely love that.

Honestly feel bad for all quest authors when threads get like this. Must be hell sorting out what people want to do or say, having any sort of consensus, and then having to actually write out a scene or dialogue with the jumbled mess of posts. Really surprised I haven't seen any out and out say they'll only accept the first suggestion from a given ID. I certainly wouldn't mind.
>>
No. 62960 ID: f2c20c

>>62959
I certainly wouldn't mind being limited to one post if it would cut down on the truly massive amount of suggestion noise in this quest.

I'd probably wind up having to delete my first post and repost it along with further thoughts later on in the thread, though. I quite often think of more things to suggest after I've already posted.
>>
No. 62961 ID: 80926d

Oiy Josh the Aspie, stop filling the thread with your horseshit.
>>
No. 62962 ID: e297bb

>>62959
Welp, there we go. I've posted a new list of suggestions. Entirely relevant. I'd offer to delete it upon apology. The main problem with that is that I already tried in order to add a bit more clarification, and it didn't work. I will admit fault on not taking better care of the password there.

However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

Yours hasn't.

Suprizingly, that makes your obsenities less relevant than any posts I've made, which you're complaining about.

... huh. Well, imagine that.
>>
No. 62963 ID: 80926d

Jesus can you take this shit to "BIG DUMB ARGUEMENTS" cause its big, its dumb, and it technically qualifies for an arguement.
>>
No. 62964 ID: e297bb

>>62961
Well, given that I was done posting until people decided to be provocative with bravado, and obscenity, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on, much less four between yourself, and f2c20c.

I do hope that you realize that you're actually provoking behavior that you don't want, and that I'm just refusing to be intimidated by people swearing at me. It's really quite elementary.

Had I not been sworn at, I already would have been done posting. I was even offering to clear out existing posts if people wanted, based on polite conversation.
>>
No. 62965 ID: 409abf

To be honest, from a outsider's perspective this is making the entire thing rather hard to get in to. All I see are two sides lowering each other step by step. It is neither constructive, nor helpful and all it does is make things more difficult for new people to get into.

While I agree the base 'shut up' comment with nothing constructive was uncalled for, Josh's response was even more so. Both by just being a means to get back at the ones who told him to be quiet and being rather rude to those who are actually try to post good ideas only to have them moved away until the 5 most recent posts are spam.

Come on. Considering Jukashi asked us to play nicely, this sort of thing should either stick to a chat room, or in discussion away from the main thread. So please stop the petty fighting, alright? I enjoy Lunar Quest and I would hate to see it canceled due to this sort of thing.
>>
No. 62966 ID: e297bb

>>62965
Juroko, in retrospect, I regret posting to the main thread. I intended to delete it after I had made my point, but screwed up on the password.

I have reasons for what I did, but sum total, I still would rather I had not posted that particular post.

My main solace is that I constructed it in such a way as to ATTEMPT to make it humerous to Jukashi, in the off chance that he wound up reading it.

I know he's an MLP fan (probably a far bigger one than me, as I'm just a casual fan/watcher), so I built a fair amount of the post out of references to a fan work.

That said, I do not respond well to intimidation, obscenity, or blaspheme, and do not intend to censor myself any further than I already was, based on vulgar intimidation tactics.

Still, there are some people I owe an apology too. To anyone reading this who was offended, or disappointed, and did not decide to try to intimidate people with obscenity or blaspheme, I apologize for the negative way my conduct has impacted you. If anyone with the power to do so wants to, I'd actually appreciate it if you'd just delete that main thread post about the muffins.
>>
No. 62967 ID: 9b155d

>>62962
>However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

>Yours hasn't.


I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself that I'm not the guy who posted The Shut Up or any variation thereof. I'm an entirely separate person who was commenting on how by trying to get back at someone for being rude you're being a complete asshole to the quest author. In a follow up paragraph I made a comment not directed at anyone in particular about feeling sorry for quest authors who had to deal with massive amounts of posts that aren't suggestions. Also, I only have a single post in the main thread.
>>
No. 62968 ID: e297bb

>>62967
I admit to my error. I got used to a bit of back and forth with f2c20c, and failed to continue to check the user stamp. That was pretty dumb of me.

I apologize for that error, and conflating the two of you. You're already included in my earlier apology, but I'll repeat it. I apologize for the negative impacts my posts have had on you. I ask for your forgiveness.
>>
No. 62969 ID: f2c20c

>>62968
Hey, I'd like to point out that if you aren't contributing to the suggestion glut, then I don't have any problem with you.
>>
No. 62970 ID: e297bb

>>62969
Wait, what?

Okay, maybe I'm just confused here. I'm not trying to lay blame, just explain my mental state, so that maybe we can figure out where things went wrong.

In >>/quest/468017 you shouted at what appeared to be everyone to shut up, and screamed an obsenity. I'm part of everyone.

Then in >>62957, you said that "It got your attention, unlike more polite requests.", and blasphemed.

I took that to be directed at me, specifically, since you were replying to my post. I'd already been talking with people who had adressed the issue more politely. I'd posted thrice, and while I didn't think I was causing a problem, I was open to trying to fix things if I was.

Since it appeared to me that you were claiming that I was ignoring the people I was already talking too, and that you were insisting that I'd respond better to being intimidated by being sworn at, I took grave offense.

I don't really see how you weren't swearing at me in the general in >>/quest/468017, and then insulting me in the specific in >>62957. I'm open to an explanation, however.

Also, I will admit that I had a single-line aside about Derpy Hooves, which wasn't in the best judgement, given how crowded things already were. The other things you complained about weren't me, though.
>>
No. 62971 ID: f2c20c

>>62970
Okay, I can see how what I said could be really easily misinterpreted, sorry for... well, basically not saying what I meant. What I meant was, my rudeness got your attention, unlike in the past where I would be polite about asking other people to talk in questdis, and it didn't stop.

I then went on to describe specifically what kinds of posts I didn't like. At this point I wasn't paying attention to specific offenses, but knew that there was kindof a lot of that sort of thing happening regardless. I didn't call you out specifically on it aside from that one derpy hooves thing which really isn't a big deal anyway since it's like one line.

You should probably let go the swearing and casual blasphemy, though. This is the internet, not church.
>>
No. 62972 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/468011
>In addition, you are gushing over it like it's "THE GREATEST IDEA EVA" and it comes off as... for lack of a better term, 'fanboying' over the idea - ie, you're putting emphasis on potential pros while ignoring any potential cons.

I kinda actually feel like Derpy right now. I was posting late at night, when my brain starts shutting down, so I didn't quite realize that you were basically insulting me. I didn't know that being too (sleep-deprived) enthusiastic was a crime. There's a difference between sating that I didn't list/think of any cons and saying that I'm a thoughtless fanboy.

...Mostly I'm just angry with you because I woke up ten minutes ago thinking about your post. *awkward silence*

>Sure, you don't say the rose is ugly because it has thorns, but you don't grab the thorns and squeeze as hard as you can while gushing over the red of the petals, either.

I don't get it. Roses are delicious!
>>
No. 62973 ID: 63f851

So, anyways, does anyone else have opinions on my idea? From this post:
>>57732
it kinda seems that some of these ideas (light, time, desire) would be better off as their own soul later down the line. We're not picking a new power that will also act as the feeder soul, we're picking the digestive system first and secondarily we might gain new powers too. Also, this is going to be made from/reflecting Saulanna, so things like Civilization, Culture, and Souls might be reaching a bit outside ourselves. For example, Jukashi uses the example of knowledge, but that would be more a feeding soul Wordblood than for Saulanna. I think feeder souls based on Eating, Will, or Balance might be the most direct elements to base a feeding soul on (and I hereby formally throw Eating and Balance into the list of ideas to ask Wordblood about,) but these choices just feel too safe. It would be perfectly fine to make a feeding soul with the element of Will, but for our first act of Lunar-Titan growth it feels way too damn boring. This is the sentence where I connect everything above to propose that Rebirth fits my criteria perfectly. In addition to what I mentioned in that sentence, Rebirth is totally meta, and that's why it's cool. It's quite probable that no other titan uses Rebirth, and being unique means both having no holds on us and also possibly creating powers that no others have. A bunch or really weird stuff happened to the person that is now called Saulanna. She's lost much, but also gained much too. Creating her feeding soul with the element of Rebirth means grabbing that weirdness by the horns and making all of it hers. That I feel is the greatest power Saulanna could gain. Or maybe it's a silly idea that wouldn't really work. *Shrug*
>>
No. 62974 ID: f2c20c

>>62973
I feel like a Feeder of Eating would wind up turning us into a glutton. Rebirth could do all sorts of weird stuff... it's worth asking about, that's for sure.
>>
No. 62975 ID: 9718f3

Guys. It's simple. if you're responding to someone's post, and they're responding to your response to their post, you're having a discussion. Which belongs in here, not in the main thread. Even when half your post is "new" material, you aren't excused from keeping the chatter over there to the minimum. There's chains of back and forth spanning half a dozen posts, it's ridiculous, and it makes things much harder to follow.

Additionally, I see a lot of people trying to convince each other of the validity of their ideas in the quest thread. That is a poor place for such debates, especially because in Jukashi quests it is not other players who decide how valid an idea or plan of action is, it's Jukashi themselves. What other players think of your ideas is irrelevant most of the time, so don't waste everyone's time and patience addressing them specifically.

Wanting to contribute is a great thing but being a respectful contributor means not flooding the thread with many posts. Take the time to consolidate your ideas and present them as one or two posts. At least that is the ideal everyone should aim for. One guy misunderstanding you is not the end of the world and generally shouldn't warrant a 10 paragraph response to set the record straight. Stop being so thin-skinned.
>>
No. 62982 ID: d6ae01

Is this the discussion thread? I honestly can't tell which is which because both threads have discussion and dumb arguing.

Jukashi, let me know your thoughts on all this, and how heavily you'd like "discussion in /dis/ only" enforced.

I began deleting this stuff, but I'm going to leave most of it up so Jukashi can see it and decide how he feels.

But until then, no more arguing.
>>
No. 62984 ID: e297bb

>>62982
Yes, it is.
Thank you for deleting the muffin post, sir. I acknowledge my error, and have deleted the two posts I made that were pulling things into discussion territory. You have my apologies.

-----

>>62975
Well, I try to admit when I am wrong. I re-read the actual written rules yesterday after our last interchange. They do state how things should be divvied up on the boards. Obviously, from the admin action above, as well.

What other reasonable choice do I have? Of the 3 remaining posts I had in the quest thread, I've deleted the second two, which were pulling things into discussion territory.

I'd like to explain a bit of the reason for my confusion.

This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.

If people want to change that, consistent and even handed application of authority is likely to be necessary. I'm glad that Slinkoboy is offering, and I hope Jukashi takes him up on his offer.

As it is, there are people who repeatedly bring up their issues, and discuss them in the main quest thread. They ignore the discussion thread entirely. These people seem to be having a huge influence on the quest, including the posts that Jukashi has made. Milo, for example, seems to have a rather sizable influence.

While Jukashi has verbally discouraged that behavior, the apparently large influence that people like Milo have also rewards that behavior. This sends mixed signals.

I was actually nervous about keeping most of my discussion here when I first started posting. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see Jukashi address something I had only posted about here addressed in a main quest post.

Unfortunately, until more people pay attention to the discussion thread, and bring discussions here, the discussions here won't really have much of an effect on how people vote/choose, as they'll be missing vital info. That may occasionally make it a practical necessity to post that missing info to the main thread. Jukashi himself has already done so on a few occasions.

I hope that it becomes unnecessary soon, based on a combination of admin action, and bad behavior not being rewarded.

-----

>>62972
I accept your apology. I hope you'll accept my apology for making the muffin post.

As for the swearing/blaspheme thing... I generally don't bring it up when people decide to swear, or blaspheme. It's mainly when they are specifically addressing me, and particularly when they are trying to get me to do something by shouting at me at the same time.

When it looks like someone is trying to shove me around, and boss me around inappropriately, by yelling and swearing, which is a method of intimidation, I say exactly what I don't like about the behavior, and why I am not complying with their inappropriate orders.

If you had said, for example, "The fuck is a Derpy Hooves?" I probably wouldn't have commented, though I might have.

It looks like I'm not the only one who disliked your post either. It was one of the posts that slinkoboy deleted. HalfTangible reacted poorly in >>62976 as well.

Also, if you were to choose one or the other when talking to me, I'd prefer the vulgarity, even when directed at me, over the blaspheme. This is a preference that, if taken into consideration, would make me more kindly disposed toward you.

-----

>>62972

Regarding the whole "fanboy" thing: I wouldn't have dissed you over your position. However, you really weren't explaining yourself well, and were enthusiastic about the idea at the same time. It didn't exactly endear me to your idea.

Now that you're more clear headed, you've explained it better. Though, it would have been easier to read if you'd broken your paragraphs up a bit.

>>62973

As for the feeding soul of eating... I don't think that eating is an element so much as a purpose, which is also called... feeding.

You do make a good point about the foreignness of certain large concepts not directly tied to Saulanna. That's another point against my original idea of "culture" as well.

As far as rebirth goes, I was trying to puzzle out what context it could have, in terms of how the purpose of feeding, and the element of rebirth would interact.

Wordblood has said that these ghosts are "reborn" into us... but aside from gaining skills and TW, I don't really see it. I think it's more of an analogy he used to make Saulanna more comfortable with the course of action he wanted to follow.

Then it hit me. Perhaps a Feeding Soul of rebirth could develop the power of reducing our TW gain in exchange for making them actually reborn within Saulanna. They might be re-born as sub-souls of a Deva. Obviously we wouldn't want to do that with slavers, or the like... but people have already floated the idea of turning ghosts we like into a part of Saulanna. Perhaps we could make Gavin a sub-soul of any Deva we create that involves hard work and fortitude... or that guard captain into part of one of our combat oriented Devas.

This could be a path to that ability, which multiple people have expressed interest in.

It's actually even somewhat lunary, since Luna has the ability to turn Fey into spirits of creation called "truculee".

Of course we'd want consent in order to do that to ghosts we like, but hey, I think it's an interesting idea to at least ask about.

-----

Regarding voting, when the time actually comes:
The instant runoff system got brought up earlier in the thread. I'd like to go with such a system.

To see the flaws of a "most initial votes wins" system, consider the following scenario. You have a 5-way election between George Washington, Thommas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and Che Guavara. Che could win, even if only about 25% of the people voting even like him at all, and the other 75% would prefer anyone else over him.

The threat of that can also make people less likely to vote for an entirely viable candidate, that they just think can't win.

In an "instant runoff" system, unless people really wanted socialism, and more per-capita executions than either Hitler or Stalin, Che wouldn't win. People would also feel more free to make their primary vote the person/concept they actually want to vote for.

In the above example, my ticket might look something like this:
1 Washington
2 Jefferson
3 Benjamin Franklin
4 Abraham Lincoln
5 Che Guavara

It's a bit more labor intensive to do, so I'll understand if Jukashi doesn't want to do it. This is just my preference. Also, if some folks volunteered to provide vote counts, based on Jukashi declaring when the voting started/ended (either when he started the vote count, or by making a second post to declare polls closed), that might work out as well. If we have multiple vote counters, and their numbers match, that'd confirm the results. Jukashi would only need to do the counting if there was a conflicted result.
>>
No. 62987 ID: b6edd6

>This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.
From what I have seen it really depends on how crowded the quest thread is likely to get. Lots of quests with smaller followings or fast update speeds tend to have few posts after each update (less than 15 or so), and in those side discussions are not that problematic as long as they are kept short. The problems with discussion start to occur in quests that are very popular or take a while to update, because when you have 30ish of direct suggestions per update alone discussion in the quest thread can lead to massive amounts of text for the author and readers to deal with.

Also, if you are going to say lots and lots and lots of things, could you please use less spacing compact them into paragraphs more? It isn't nearly as much trouble when the post is in /disc, but when a single non-author post is three screens long you kind of have a problem.
>>
No. 62989 ID: e297bb

>>62987
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I'll also try to keep your request in mind.
Gathering too many sentences into two few paragraphs makes the text hard to read, but I may have spread the sentences out too much. I'm also obviously still working to improve my ability to fully express a thought, while keeping my post brief.
>>
No. 62990 ID: 400fb2

>>/quest/467608
> If your Element is already claimed by another mighty force, they will be able to exert power over you; but in time, and growth, so too could you exert power over them.

Given how many powerful titans and gods there are, and that many of them span multiple elements, I think it is inevitable that we are going to step on some one's toes. I don't think we should really worry about that for this particular deva. Doesn't Wordblood's element (Words) overlap with Elloge a bit? That hasn't been a problem yet. For now, let's just avoid something that would be shared by the Dragon's Shadow, since he's the only superpowered entity that represents any sort of immediate threat.
>>
No. 62991 ID: 7f2a1b

Okay, so, if I'm not completely mistaken, next (quest-wise) we're going to request P-n-WB's input on the various suggested elements, and NOT going for the creation of the new deva until their input has been processed.

That about right?
>>
No. 62992 ID: cee89f

>>62991
Sounds about right.

>>62984
Oh! Idea! Rebirth (as we're defining it here) involves a person becoming radically different from who they are, right? Maybe for cases like the Slavers, we could use our feeder and 'rebirth' them into ourselves as different kinds of people! Like how we went from Thief to Moon Hero/Titan!

... second thought that could easily be viewed as brainwashing... Especially when you consider we became a Titan by having our soul wiped clean.

Okay, maybe we could offer to 'rebirth' them as titan subsouls, say Noble or Commoner Devas for Wordblood/McFeederson. They'd still be /who/ they were before, just not /what/ they were before, and be able to assist in the tasks of a titan. The issue there becomes how much of an influence they'll have on us, though the threat of being eaten entirely if they become too uppity might deter them.

...Or maybe that would be for a different kind of soul than a feeder =/ ... huh.

... I think i like the rebirth idea in this light.

...And it only occurs to me now that the second idea was exactly what you just finished saying *facepalm*

-----
Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: Raccoons aren't exactly primordial, and we have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Rebirth
Pros: Could allow us to 'rebirth' souls within us as subsouls, very connected to Saulanna's life since becoming a titan, could allow us to remake criminals into decent people before integrating them into us.
Cons: Influence of potential human subsouls, only interacts with singular events, remaking criminals similar to brainwashing

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.
>>
No. 62993 ID: 256d52

Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?
>>
No. 62996 ID: e297bb

>>62990
I think that asking who/what there is overlap with, and choosing overlaps that would be more advantageous / less disadvantageous to us is a far more relevant path than trying to avoid overlaps entirely.

You already seem to be prioritizing avoiding overlaps with the Dragon's Shadow.

>>62991
That's the plan, as I understand it.

I also think that since we have "souls" on the list, and "rebirth" with an eye toward how we deal with eating ghosts, we might want to ask more about the nature of ghosts as well. I posted such a set of questions in the main thread, as something we should ask about in the near future.

>>62992
Yeah, that second variation is basically what I was getting at. The main exception is that having component souls with any given personality would pretty obviously influence Saulanna. I doubt we want slavers influencing her mental state.
>>
No. 62997 ID: b6edd6

>Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?
Wouldn't it be convenient if there were some space for discussion that was also editable? As it happens, there is! It is currently even more obscure than the /questdis thread*, but if people use it and link to it it will presumably become less so. (Normal discussion would probably work better in this thread, but things like continually updating lists or theories would likely work better in the wiki, where they can actually be edited instead of repeatedly reposted.)
The page for this quest is:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest
A particular section of the page can be linked like so:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest#List_of_potential_Feeding_Soul_Elements


* As far as I could discover, this will be the first time a discussion tab in the wiki has ever been used.
>>
No. 62999 ID: 38cd76

In a similar relationship to the suggestion of darkness, or of rebirth, what do we possibly think about elements such as DEATH or LIFE?

Either death or life would work really well as far as actually being stuck in a shadowland right now, death is a large part of creation, there are deaths of ideas, people, animals, kingdoms, plants, lots of things! She also is dealing with ghosts and the like on a regular basis, and DEATH or LIFE would also very likely be very appropriate for a FEEDER soul in particular, as one of its purposes is developing her spiritual energy, and/or devouring souls. It works!
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No. 63000 ID: eb5438

>>62982

I think my policy is going to be that no one should make more than two posts between updates. Preferably, they should make just one, but I'd allow two.

On another subject, this video should explain alternative voting/instant run-off voting, which we'll be using, for those who don't know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE
>>
No. 63001 ID: eb5438

Voting begins!
>>
No. 63004 ID: cee89f

>>62993
This board doesn't have an edit function for individual posts. I don't have any OTHER way to keep track of the list in question, nor what post i last edited it for. So yes. I am copy+pasting a list "every twenty posts" (actually a lot less than that, but thanks for being generous) so that it's easy to keep track of and update.

>>62997
Thank you, I'll try and do that with any future lists. If I forget and have to be reminded, I'll delete the post in question.

>>63001
Hooray!
>>
No. 63007 ID: f2c20c

WELP, looks like most of the ones we came up with suck!

What do you guys think of maybe coming up with another option or two? Maybe straightforward stuff like Blood or Flesh or Hunger.
>>
No. 63008 ID: eb5438

>>63007

Every Element you could possibly come up with will probably have at least one disadvantage. And if it didn't, I would endeavor to give it one, for balance. We don't want things to get boring, do we?
>>
No. 63009 ID: 3338b5

>>63008
Well yes, but I think the complaint there was that quite a few elements proposed passed the line from "that will work, with a given disadvantage" to "that's not really suited to this purpose at all and has more problems and disadvantages than is worth it".

>Discussion
So, from Wordblood's responses, time seems a pretty strong choice. I'm pretty tempted to give him what he wants.
>>
No. 63010 ID: eb5438

>>63009

Well, saying they would all have some disadvantage doesn't mean that they're all equal. Some are worse, some better. Perhaps there are even one or two that are best, if you have trust in your ability to handle them.
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No. 63012 ID: b6edd6

Oh Will soul, you were too excellent to exist...

...This time, at least. When we have more souls and power we should definitely go for a Will soul for a Purpose like Magic, because their reaction more or less said it would be awesome but beyond our current abilities.

Hmmm... What if we made a Crafting soul of Will? As a being which is itself crafted from will, it could start self-assembling part-way through its creation. Depending on how much Time shenanigans we could get away with by that point, we could even have our Time soul assist it in crafting itself.
>>
No. 63013 ID: 3338b5

>>63012
>paradoxical origin for time deva
>interacting with devas we haven't even created yet
That's all kinds of awesome.
>>
No. 63015 ID: b24894

There weren't any disadvantages listed for Raccoons! =D

That means they're the best! Vote'd.
>>
No. 63016 ID: cee89f

>>63015
i think he was trying to decide if we were joking. Or just staring at us like this pic.
>>62746


...

i like that pic =3
>>
No. 63018 ID: e297bb

>>/quest/468303

I would rather not go with a Lord Deva that has a strong potential to take over the King/Queen slot from Saulanna. I think that we should save Bonds/Connections, or any other deva elements that might shift the balance of power, to be Noble Devas. These are at the mid level between Lords, and Commoners, recall. This might well actually stabilize the power-base of Saulanna's house.

Some of these would also do well as Nobles under Wordblood. As a result, I'm kicking Civilization, and Culture off of my list.

>Will
>She's not sure why; but she feels a little insulted by the suggestion, somehow. She feels an implication in it that she's deficient in terms of willpower, herself.

>>/questarch/213361
>It's... incredible!

>>/quest/405263
>It feels so good.

Well she does need more willpower. That's probably why the suggestion stings.

My thought on the difficulty in making the spirit is that if we can't actually make the Deva out of willpower, we can move on to our runner up, whatever that is. Besides, a tree IS made of wood. If you had a magical carpenter who could bring wood carvings to life, and he brought his tree to life, he'd have more wood to make things out of later. Let's be a magical carpenter! Besides, since when have Titans been unable to handle recursive absurdity? I'm looking at you, "She Who Lives In her Name".

This is also one of the two most powerful possibilities, and one that impressed Wordblood. Time also has some disadvantages (see below). I'm also willing to put up with a Willful Deva (that's part of the point, in this case). My favorite option is Will... if we can do it.

>Time
I do like this element. The advantages have been discussed, but something that Wordblood said is a disadvantage that others don't seem to be considering, and brings up other concerns.

We really do need to take care to avoid screwing up causality too badly. The Primordial war did a lot of damage there, and caused some horrible problems. I'm not sure that this crew, or Saulanna herself can really handle that. Take another look at the links under "Will".

Even if we assume that we can handle the responsibility, and not muck up with causality too much... if we screw with it even a little, we may well invite the interference of the Star Heroes, who's job it is to fix muck-ups in the Loom of Fate.

Speaking of Star Heroes, I think that we'll probably have some overlap with the 5 (6? 6+?) Maidens of Fate. Fate and Time seem highly related, after all. Saturn has "endings" as her explicit domain, and "beginnings" of many kinds are a part of the domain of Venus. This is not necessarily a negative, just something to consider, especially if we decide to also go for a light element deva later.

I like the element over-all, and while I'm not entirely confident this crew can handle it, I'm confident enough to make this my #2 pick.

Also, if we DO make a Time Lord, I think he should be a ginger this time. ;)

-----

As for the others, I've got ideas on what to do with them, and many of these are based on Jukashi's assessments. Obviously, actually acting on any of these can wait until later. Still, I think that having a good idea of where certain elements might fit best later can give us a better idea of what to vote on for now.

Lord Souls for Saulanna
Love: Healing, social, or would go really well with that purpose of maternal / nurturing (though that one might be best as a noble).
Life: Creation, Healing, or a Noble Deva to the Healing Deva
Rebirth: Healing, or a Noble Deva to the healing Deva
Knowledge: Seeing
Light: Soooo many purposes for this one, particularly investigation, revelation, and combat against the darkness, if we go that rout.
Heroism: This should be the element we use to make our Kung Fu Master Lord. We have to have one of those eventually.
Growth: Pair this one with the purpose of training, thus helping Saulanna to grow, as well as the other members of her inner world, and eventually others. This might also do well as a noble soul for our Kung Fu Hero Deva.

Noble Souls for Saulanna
Balance: To aid us in managing any conflicts between the Devas we create within Saulanna. Might work better as a Lord soul.
Connections: To help cement Saulanna as the main titan Deva.
Unity: Has some of the benefits of the two above.
Self/Identity: To help cement Saulanna as the main Titan Soul, and also to make it easier to come back from a potential bad end, may also help against mind control.
Restraint: If we don't go with Will as a Lord soul, we should make a noble soul like this, in this position. It would also work under the Will Feeder, or possibly under feeding, even if we don't make Will the Feeding Deva.

Noble Souls for Wordblood
Culture: Well, I think it's a useful element to have, and it's close to Wordblood, so why not give it to him? For some reason, I'm now imagining word blood with a top hat. Smashing look old chum. :P
Thought: He wants it, he used to have it, we like the element, let him have it.
Rationality: Well since we're probably not going to create a Deva of Order, perhaps a Noble of Rationality or Debate, or a caste of commoners of this sort.
>>
No. 63019 ID: f2c20c

I think Saulanna felt inherently insulted by it because it would conflict with her Element. Think about it for a minute. If Saulanna is part of a Titan, it stands to reason that she is like her other Souls, and has an Element and Purpose. Either her Element is Will, or something close to it. What her Purpose is is unknown though.
>>
No. 63020 ID: 0c2247

For a Feeder soul, Time is probably best.

However, I'd like to plan a Lord soul for "Loyalty". It would secure Saulanna's control, and having a lord soul dedicated to loyalty would work in our favor when her nature is eventually discovered. Even moreso if that Lord has nobles for Love and Family, and Saulanna openly considers Luna her mother in a literal sense.
>>
No. 63021 ID: 84df54

Where would I go / who would I talk to if I had some suggestion that might make the discussion thread a bit more usable?
>>
No. 63022 ID: 886a4d

>>63018
Truth would be a good Noble soul for wordblood. It's something he doesn't have at the moment.
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No. 63023 ID: e297bb

>>63019
I toyed with that idea as well, but I think a human explanation is entirely plausible. Then again, the explanations don't need to be entirely mutually exclusive. In this cosmology, humans were made to be willful creatures who submitted themselves to the Titans and Gods in prayer, and are one of the few creatures not under an inherent gease to another form of life.

>>63020
Interesting concept. I can very well support a Lord soul devoted to helping to get the various other Lord Souls to work together, and be loyal to Saulanna... though I think we might also be able to manage that function using Noble Souls in the House of Saulanna. I'm not sure which way would be better. It might be good to consult with Wordblood on that.

>>63022
Mmm. Either word-blood, or the Seer of Knowledge. Personally, I think that Truth and Knowledge are more tightly tied than Truth and Communication.

Really, I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge.

>>63021
I'm not sure. If it's a technical suggestion, the admins, probably, if you can figure out how to get a hold on the admin team. I regret that I can't be more helpful.
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No. 63026 ID: 3338b5

>>63021
I would think you could bring it up here? It's not as if we have a meta-discussion thread for discussing the discussion.

>I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge
Is there a reason different Lords couldn't have similar nobles serving them? There's going to be some redundancy in a parallel arrangement of power.

Any ideas where we should be spending our titans will from the new ghosts after we make the new deva? I would think we'd want to spend a point upgrading Saulanna to replace the loss of the feeder creation. I'd also like to spend a point or two powering up Wordblood to make him more directly useful (preferably far enough that he unlocks his own energy meter, an equivilent of moon points- word points or whatever), although every point we spend in him necessitates a point spend on Saulanna to keep her on top.
>>
No. 63030 ID: e297bb

>>63026

I do think that there is reason. Based on my understanding of what Wordblood is saying in >>/quest/468303, having Lords that are too close together does not allow them enough conceptual room to "grow". This would seem to imply that they can't have overlapping Nobles, or that doing so causes problems. Keep in mind that if two Lords overlap too much, they can bleed into each-other and become inexorably drawn together into a single Deva.

In fact, that might actually be what is happening to Saulanna and Wordblood, causing the two to merge more over time. It's only come up a few times, but it worried Wordblood.

Hmm. If having more Lords doesn't fix that, we might want to establish some Nobles for both Wordblood and Saulanna that are in different conceptual directions from one another.

As for ideas on spending TW:
Based on >>/quest/409526 it will take 4 of our 5 measures of Titans will to create the Feeding Deva, and 2 of however many we have after feeding, in order to return her Soul Force to 3, not just 1. It'd would also take 2 measures to raise Wordblood's Soul Force to 3, and 3 to increase ours to 4 to stay ahead.

While I can support raising Soul Force back to 3, for several reasons, I'd rather not spend the TW to raise it to 4, and Wordblood's to 3, at least for now.

If we need to, I think we should spend 1 TW on an ability to keep the feeding from flaring our Soul Fire. There's also the possibility that we might be able to boost efficiency even further than we have with an additional expenditure. Those would be things to do before feeding, if at all possible.

I'd like to improve Saulanna's ability to resist the various arguments, but all of the direct stats for that are passive.

People have suggested raising Saulanna's appearance score. I like the idea of doing so, particularly while she takes a bath and otherwise tidies and makes her self up.

I also like the idea of granting Wordblood abilities based around communication, particularly his existing ability to parry. I'm just not sure how to formulate those ideas. A dazzling display of linguistics? A powerful verbal parry?

Finally, if we have any TW left over after preparing for social combat, we might want to dump it into improving our new Feeding Deva's long-term TW generation ability, or keeping it back for an emergency expenditure.
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No. 63032 ID: 3338b5

If we stay inside the houses of Lords metaphor, than each house is going to have common needs. Every household needs a manager, a bookeeper / recordskeeper, a housekeeper, etc. And I would think they'd be cut of their master's cloth- so the butler of the house of words won't blend into the butler of the house of time, because their elements are different.
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No. 63035 ID: e297bb

>>63030
You're talking about overlap of purpose, so I'll address that first. Every business needs a book keeper, but a hotel doesn't need a gunsmith, and a gun store doesn't need room service. Similarly, it's dangerous to have too many houses within a kingdom concentrate on war, or on the production of a particular good (say, cloth), even if all of them have their own internal book keepers. This can lead to trade wars, or to civil wars.

The focus of my prior discussion, however, was element. Take the example of two lords that are too similar in element, an Aide of Communication, and a Feeder of Culture. These Lords (and their houses) might draw together and merge over time, fight each-other over turf, or be too stifled to grow, by having Nobles of associated elements. The method for this merger hasn't been precisely explained.

Even if Knowledge and Words are far enough apart to not be stifled in growth, if they both pick the same element (Truth) for one of their Nobles, then that overlap may cause them to grow into each-other, and merge inexorably.
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No. 63036 ID: 63f851

...So, what does this room smell like, anyways?
>>
No. 63037 ID: beeca1

>>63036
The sound the color pink makes or some other such synesthesiac shit.
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No. 63048 ID: f2c20c

>>63030
Wordblood's overlap is only present because they are both parts of one Titan. They aren't merging; Wordblood has only ever been worried about Saulanna's soul power being lower than his. That happening would make it quite likely that he would take over as King, and he doesn't want that, possibly due to his Purpose.
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No. 63054 ID: cee89f

>>63020
What purpose would we tie to that element? Defense?

>>63018
Let's name him 'The Doctor!' =D

>>63048
Wordblood implied that the Queen is determined by whoever the Lordly devas feel loyalty to. The issue wasn't that he would take control, just that he was personally uncomfortable with having a higher soul force.

>>63036
Well, we're underground in a Shadowland. It probably smells like a dark, dank cave filled with death.

>>63032
...Actually, now that i think about it, do Noble and Common Devas neccesarily HAVE TO be connected to only one Lord/Noble, respectively? Like, say we decided later to get a Knowledge Seeing Deva, and wanted both Seer and Wordblood to have a truth Noble. Would we be able to make ONE truth noble, and have it serve both of them?

(It struck me that this particular scenario might come about on it's own if we make two truth sub-devas and they merged, as Lords supposedly can do.)

Afterthought: Or could we make a Truth subdeva for Saulanna that would work in the same manner?
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No. 63057 ID: 38cd76

How about Beauty? I like Beauty. A beauty feeding deva would make saulana have to seek after and cause beauty basically, in order to gain power. I like that concept.
>>
No. 63060 ID: e297bb

>>63048
I'm talking about how he is confused, and concerned about times like this: >>/questarch/211992
I thought that there was some discussion of the two bleeding into each-other more than was healthy, but looking back, I can't find anything from Jukashi on it. My mistake.

>>63054
Well I'm glad that someone got the joke.
If we really do name him that, it would really confuse the rest of the world until he became a known entity.
"Oh, so he's a Lord of Healing?"
"Nope, he's a deva that makes me more awesome because time."
"... and he's named the doctor."
"Yep!"

>>63054
A Noble is a part of their Lord, just like the Lord is a part of the King (or Saulanna's case, queen). So if the two share a noble, that'd be overlap in who they, themselves are.

Well we have lots of questions about this, and what would and wouldn't be safe, practical, or downright doable. Enough so that we should probably seek clarification in quest, or here from Jukashi, when we get close enough to making Noble souls, or start picking out elements for other Nobles. That's probably several challenges away, though.

>>63036
If you mean IC, it's a ruin that's been dug out, and looks like it has wood supports, but it seems to have been mostly cleared to the walls. My guess is that it smells a bit like soil, more like dust, and possibly rotted wood and mildew.

If you mean the chat? Hmmm.... aaahhh... I'm going to saaaay... muffins. Oh! with warm, melted butter. And jam, jam would be brilliant!

>>63057
Well I prefer beauty to ugliness as well. However, in my opinion, focusing on going around making things beautiful is really superficial. Further, people overly focused on it tend to get really wierd, and start spreading impractical ugliness that they call beauty, because they forget that in most cases beauty has it's roots in practical application, and if you cut away that root, the beauty withers and dies.

I want to keep Saulanna well out of the territory of Eva Longoria (better known by her parody, Cruella de Ville), or rust-sculptor Albert Paley.
>>
No. 63064 ID: 7f2a1b

If the deva ends up being Time (which seems very probable), can we Time it up so that the creation process isn't painful? :<
>>
No. 63065 ID: 886a4d

A better feeder soul name would be the Master.
>>
No. 63067 ID: 3dd855

>>63065
...Who will promptly scheme to (and quite possibly successfully) usurp Saulanna's Queen throne. I realize that you, and the others, are seeking pleasure via referencing Doctor Who, but do remember that this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest.
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No. 63068 ID: 3338b5

Wrong franchise, guys. The time devourer should obviously be named Lavos.

>this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest
Man, just think if we had made ourself the titan of the internet. Then it totally would have been. :V
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No. 63071 ID: aa76fd

Well, I kind of figured the Feeding Deva would be like a butler. Giving us well prepared meals along with his crew of cooks. Time also makes me think of clockwork stuff(clocks and time).. so why not make him Mr. Clocksworth? The clockwork time feeding deva?
>>
No. 63072 ID: 70c0f2

Personally, I like the idea of a time whale.

Although it's possible all our Devas are going to end up draconic in nature as Worldbood is. Or maybe, since it's essentially a spiritual cutting of Saulanna, it'll be some kind of raccoon after all?
>>
No. 63073 ID: cee89f

>>63067
Wait. Who will be usurping the throne? >.> Because what you've got there implies that it'll be the Time Deva if we name him/her the Master. But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

...Granted, that would drive the chances up considerably, but naming Wordblood 'Cassandra Cain' wouldn't have made him mute, or a combat deva.
>>
No. 63075 ID: 3dd855

>>63073
Yes, I am referring to the deva named "The Master". Because, I think should be bleedingly obvious, by naming the deva so Saulanna is acknowledging its superiority and thus abdicates in favor of The Master.

>Wordblood as Cassandra Cain
...Hmm, perhaps I should have separated my two sentences. You have completely misunderstood. I hope I have given enough information to clarify my intent in my above response.

A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.
>>
No. 63076 ID: cee89f

>>63075
I get that 'the Master' would be a huge ego boost, just not why it's equivalent to saying 'i will treat you as my master'

>A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

Essentially, that the name wouldn't affect it's loyalty. (unless we picked something deliberately antagonist, say 'Stupid Douchebag' or 'Loser') If we created a Deva that wanted to usurp us, it would want to usurp us even if we called it the Servant or Loyalty. It's nature would remain unchanged because at the end of the day our names do not define who we are (except true names, but I don't think we were talking about picking THAT out)
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No. 63078 ID: aa76fd

Technically, that is EXACTLY what we are doing here. We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name. Hell, considering we are making it out of literal bits of ourselves, whatever we name it WILL likely effect it. That means nothing like 'The Master' or 'The Time Lord'. It doesn't feel creative or neat and would make our new deva feel rather 1 dimensional.

So honestly, let's think of something original or at least not a carbon copy of trade marked characters, OK? We can do better than that.
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No. 63079 ID: bf54a8

except we sorta ARE. we are talking about the FIST name of a being who's very identity is controlling the flow of energy.

we don't want to implant the seed of the idea of "if i was in charge things would be MUCH more efficient" maximizing efficiency and gains is what they are all about.
>>
No. 63080 ID: 34d817

>>63078
>We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name.
Eh? Why would we be the one to give them their true name at all? Their true name is the essence of what they are, not merely a label given to them by someone else. We can call them whatever we wish, but their true name will be writ upon them from the moment of their creation. Wordblood will be able to tell us what it is.
>>
No. 63082 ID: f2c20c

>>63076
How exactly can you say "I will call you Master" without being subservient? Anyway, it's a dumb name. They might want to name themselves anyway so let's wait on talking about names until we know we'll have something to name.
>>
No. 63085 ID: cee89f

>>63079
If it has those thoughts, it would have them whatever name we give it. This is a being literally steeped in the idea of Time, even if it can't decide 'this will never have happened' it'll probably have SOME ability to predict the future or retroactively give itself knowledge that will save our lives.

...

Heh. "*gets born* QUICK, SHE'S COMING! WARFORM!!"

>>63082
Easy, you add 'The'. The Master makes it sound like a title unto itself - calling someone 'Surgeon' doesn't mean 'MY surgeon'.

Oh I agree it's a bad idea to call him that - we might as well name him Lord Zed or Darth Vader. I just don't see how it's tantamount to SAULANNA saying "I'm a subservient bitch who will do whatever the butch says!"

>>63078
Not to flood the discussion thread, but... Are we sure he's not going to just pick one for himself? =/ Wordblood did, if i remember correctly (though admittedly I was a little late to the party so I read through the actual events of chapter 1 without the discussion bits therein)

If not...

Flowery:
The Weaver Within Wonder?
The Keeper of Times Long Past?
One who Maintains the Passage of Time?
The Watchman (watchwoman?) of Forgotten Events?
Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon? (I like this one =3)
The Masked One who Sees the Fabric of Time

Less flowery:
Ouran? Nakal? Naz? Rolokroth? Gozeo? Renuzit? No never mind, that's dumb... uh... Yu'Shan... no wait, i think somebody in this setting uses that name... eh... Uru? Ba'Sim? Bill?

...Eh. I like 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon', tbh. Or Gozeo, if we want something less flowery. The others are there in case ya'll like any of 'em more than I did.
>>
No. 63087 ID: 3dd855

>>63085
>Feeder Soul of Time seeing the future
Sounds more suitable for a Seeing Soul, rather than a Feeder Soul.

>The Master as title
And? Lord Souls are expressions of aspects of the Titan-overself. For one Lord Soul, even if she is the Queen, to call another Lord Soul The Master (just that, lacking any other qualifier that clarifies the domain of its authority), then, naturally, The Master is the Ruler Soul.

That is, Saulanna is saying, "You, who are an aspect of the Titan I embody, is The Master: the soul that commands and is obeyed. ... Yes, the Throne naturally belongs to the one who commands the Lord Souls; and you command the Lord Souls, as follows your title. Long Live The Master!"

>names
...I don't like any of those things at all.

And, let's stop discussing names/titles please. All this serves is to fill up the disc thread.

Also, Yu Shan is the name of Heaven: the residence of the Celestial Gods and the Titans before them, and the home of the Celestial Bureaucracy.
>>
No. 63089 ID: b6edd6

>>63085
I think the flowery names are the right general direction (assuming we have input on their name to begin with), but half of those are not related to either their function or their element.
How about something like Measure of the Innumerable Moments?
>>
No. 63091 ID: cee89f

>>63087
I never said he could show US these things. Just for comedic effect. Or heck, he could just eat possible scenarios until we've only got one possible outcome left.

>Yu Shan
Aw crap, that's right...

>>63089
Most of them require a VERY liberal interpretation of the function. Examples:

>Weaver
That one refers to efficient management and distribution (taking things that don't work and placing them where they do) and uses fabric as a metaphor for the energy being distributed.

>Keeper
Keepers sometimes are also responsible for maintenance.

>Maintains
We picked time in large part because he could unspend titan's will, right?

And I'm gonna drop this now. At least until we know if we NEED to give it a name...

...I'm still going with Legacy.
>>
No. 63095 ID: ecfcdc

For a name, perhaps something that just directly concatenates purpose and element? So like, "Eater of Eons".
>>
No. 63098 ID: 63f851

>>63095
Eons?!? I like the name, but you do know how big an eon is, right? We're not Galactus here, Eater of Seconds would be more accurate.

I say we wait and see Jukashi's characterization first, then we can come up with a name. We have no idea yet how he/she/it might act, or if it's gonna have the form of a raccoon or not. And, of course, Jukashi might already have a name in mind.
>>
No. 63106 ID: b24894

She Whose Fluffy Tail Endures The Inexorable Weight of Eons
>>
No. 63108 ID: cee89f

>>63106
'Endures' implies both a burden and a defensive deva. What about 'She Whose Fluffy Tail Consumes the Weight of Eons'

We'll call her 'Eon' for short... Actually, let's just call her 'Eon'.
>>
No. 63116 ID: 9b155d

I believe you all have missed the fact that most Titans, from what we've been told, seem to try and hide the specific nature of their souls. Hints at their purpose in their name should probably be avoided.

Also, we probably shouldn't be trying to name something we might not need to name and is likely to be something very different then what we're expecting.
>>
No. 63117 ID: bf54a8

>he who bleeds the unknown word
>has word powers
>authochthon
>machines

yeah i don't think they really hide it that much.
>>
No. 63118 ID: 60d45e

Fluffy Tails!
>>
No. 63120 ID: 3dd855

>>63117
Their Element tends to be obvious, yes, but Wordblood said that Titans try to hide the Purposes of their Souls in the last (few) updates, remember?
>>
No. 63123 ID: cee89f

>>63117
The latter doesn't show the specific purpose of the soul, and the former is for the titan as a whole.

>>63116
Probably, but there's not much else to discuss until the soul is actually born.

Quick recommendation: if you want the subject to change, CHANGE THE SUBJECT XP

I still think 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon' is a good name.

>>63118
...Let's save that for the raccoon soul.
(if we do end up doing that and Wordblood doesn't give some variation of 'oh dear stars, you weren't joking...' i will be very disappoint)
>>
No. 63124 ID: 9b155d

>>63123
We could discuss future purposes of Devas and their elements.

On such a subject, here's some that I like:

1. Purpose: Seeing; Element: Knowledge
I honestly wanted our inevitable Warrior/War soul to have Knowledge as it's element, but it seems a bit of a no brainer to make our Seeing Soul knowledge based.

2. Purpose: Create; Element: Life
We were told Life could be used for creation as well as healing. I personally like it for a Deva whose purpose is to Create. I think building up a powerbase would be much quicker, and also much more customized to our methods that way. I imagine Healing could have a lot of other viable elements anyway.

3. Purpose: Teaching; Element: Magic
In normal Exalted, normal humans can awaken to magic, but it's rare and doing it on their own is a very big deal. Assuming things work more or less the same in quest, this should not only allow for more easily developing our powers, buts sets things up to ensure even our mooks can use artifacts.

4. Purpose: Create; Element: Magitech
This might step on the toes of both the Life and Magic Devas, but given that the creation of Magitech complements the creation of Life that's been taught Magic, I'm hoping the overlap is more complementary and less lethal. Definitely something I'd ask Wordblood about first though. If it works, the synergy between this one and the previous two should be pretty damn powerful.
>>
No. 63126 ID: cee89f

>>63124
Thank you for offering an alternative this time =p

Personally I think the seeing deva should have the Truth element, for reasons put below. Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

-----

Purpose: Seeing, Element: Truth
This would grant us a form of truesight, and if we gave it a knowledge subsoul later we might be able to scry. While either Knowledge or Truth could get the other later, I think that at the moment Truesight of our surroundings is more important than scrying on other places - especially since we know little about places in the world we could potentially scry on.

Purpose: Healing, Element: Rebirth
This would allow us to heal the wounds of others, but also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

Purpose: Creating, Element: Love
We want to be a positive force in the world. Creating and spreading joy and love seems a great way to do that.

Purpose: Offense, Element: Raccoon
Raccoonbending aside, raccoons can fight bobcats to a standstill. This is NOT a creature you want to mess with... and if Raccoon can't be an element, ask Wordblood what it would take TO MAKE IT ONE!! =p

Purpose: Defense, Element: Movement
In addition to improving our ability to dodge, we would gain the ability to run from battles we're heavily outclassed in. And let's be honest with ourselves here: THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN.

I wanted to put a socially inclined Deva here, but we've already got Wordblood, we'd be better off just improving on him.

Purpose: Stealth, Element: Secrets
Using a specific element for a Stealth deva would require that said element NOT stand out in whatever setting we happen to be in - a darkness Deva, for instance, might not be able to hide us in a sufficiently bright room, since a massive cloak of darkness is going to draw attention (could be taking it too literally) A secret would just make us... unnoticeable. We wouldn't need to use anything in specific, just will ourselves to be a secret and BAM! nobody knows we're there unless we want them to.

Purpose: Travel, Element: Light or Desire
Desire could potentially let us just will to be somewhere - we want it hard enough and we go there. Light, on the other hand... well, it's a little thing called LIGHTSPEED =D

-----

...Oh stop looking at me like that, you weren't gonna use those brain cells for anything important anyway =p
>>
No. 63127 ID: bf54a8

no he said two deva with the same purpose one will automatically become a noble to the other. just instantly. based on power and such.
>>
No. 63130 ID: 9b155d

Neither of those are true. He said Devas that share elements will always devour each other, Devas with similar Elements have problems as it limits their ability for growth from their Nobles, and Devas sharing a purpose will USUALLY cause War.

So yes, a Deva with the same purpose as another and an Element closely linked to the element of another is pushing things, hence why I said I'd definitely want to ask Wordblood first, but given the specific thing I was suggesting, I think it MIGHT be able to work, and if so would be a pretty powerful combination.
>>
No. 63131 ID: 9b155d

>>63126
>also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

None of those are incurable in Exalted, though we might be able to cure them sooner then is normal and get around damage that magically resists healing. Though the result might be wiping out who the person currently is as it forces them to reincarnate or something.
>>
No. 63136 ID: cee89f

>>63127
-.- No.

>>63130
That's what I said. See?
>Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

>>63131
There's also the fact we could bring souls like the slavers (possibly bad, but we're not sure) into ourselves and remake them as commoner devas or something. But ya know.
>>
No. 63139 ID: b3952d

I've been thinking for a bit about what we're going to do after we create the feeder soul. Given that we're going to have new souls to nom on we're likely going to have 10+ TW after everything. This would let us boost our Soul force to 4, boost Wordblood to 3, and have enough left over to become at least as pretty as the Deathknight chick and gain a random new power. Possibly lots of new powers, if our Feeder is really good.

While that's very nice, I'm somewhat concerned as to what the others will think when we come down an hour later and the ones with supernatural senses can tell we're vastly more powerful than we were a little while ago. Even the unobservant should notice that we've put on a cup size or two.

Do we want to worry about this?
>>
No. 63140 ID: 70c0f2

>>63139
If we're not too extravagant with the upgrading, we can pass off a one point increase in beauty as having freshened up.

And increase in moon power might be harder to cover up, but if it's not too great, and we put enough time between then and now, maybe they'll assume we just weren't up to full power before?

Longer term, some ability to conceal or obscure the true extent of our power might be useful.
>>
No. 63141 ID: 9b155d

>>63136
Not quite what you said. Those with the same purpose might go to War and only those with the same Element consume one another.(Unless, I suppose, the two Devas sharing a purpose have a purpose or elements that mean going to War IS an attempt to eat one another. Gluttony/Feeding/ect ect). Also he never said compete at best for sharing a purpose, just that it usually causes War, which I believe probably means they become territorial over their specific role and have an instinctive want to be in charge of things within' that role.

It's a very important difference when we're talking about Elements that, when combined with the purpose, lead to roles that don't actually have much overlap but synergize well with one another. I imagine that usually Devas whose purposes are along the lines of Social, War, Feeding, Stealth, Healing, Seeing, ect ect tend to have significant overlap in role regardless of their element. Create Devas who are in a lot of ways on the opposite end of the Spectrum(Organic and Inorganic) are a bit unusual in that regard.
>>
No. 63142 ID: c735d3

>>63126
Having Truth as the element for a Lord deva might make it harder for us to hide our titanic nature. On the other hand, it might make Sol more positively inclined towards us. He likes truth.
>>
No. 63144 ID: 70c0f2

>>63142
Hmm. Potentially something like a Seer of Truth could have some sway over who could see the truth- and act as a roundabout means of concealment? Then again, that might be anathema to it's nature, the same way blocking understanding was to Wordblood.
>>
No. 63146 ID: 1edffd

>>63141
War is a competition for resources and/or attempted destruction of your opponent. Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

Assuming you disagree with that interpretation of war (not gonna lie, that happens a lot) 'compete' is better than 'war' (and in my opinion, better than 'cooperate'*), and they're both going to try and get their own agendas forward. So yeah. At best, they compete.

And as you said, consumption occurs with similar elements, while the case here was identical purposes... aaaaand i said 'consume'. Okay, you got me there.

*A competition forces one to improve oneself.

>>63140
Er, if our Soul Fire wasn't active (which I'm hoping is part of our plan -to WAIT until it dies down) how would they be able to tell our MP increased?

>>63140
If we absolutely MUST hide our soul force, we could create a stealth soul with the TW from these two slavers, but other than that, we'll probably just have to risk the death hero and/or moon heroes noticing and hope they keep their mouths shut if they do to try and keep it hidden from each other. We're woefully unprepared for another go-round, as we are.

Instead of making a Stealth soul though, i'd say we should increase both our soul force and Wordblood's, so he can gain some of those social abilities he was talking about. Specifically the idea planting, so we can get them to decide it's best that they keep as much secret from each other as they can. The chance of us needing to social fight again is fairly high.

>>63142
Correct me if I'm wrong: a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/
>>
No. 63149 ID: 70c0f2

>how would they be able to tell our MP increased?
I'm assuming there's a way to sense mystic power, at least on a gross scale, if nothing else. Possibly even specific abilities with more resolution. They may not notice, of course.

>Soul fire
I'm hoping that once we get the new Deva online, it'll be less of a problem. The soul fire is basically the result of an inefficiency, right? We accumulate magical contamination or radiation when we spend moon points, because we are not converting all the energy to the task we want. There's waste. Hopefully, with a Deva on dedicated mystic energy management, the effect will be lessened.

> a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/
I think that's too narrow an interpretation. I mean, Wordblood squeezes a hell of a lot under aiding with communication- he's even said he might one day be able to drop information right into people's heads (a sort of sneaky almost mind control communication!).

Showing is a really just the other side of sight, after all. Once party shows, the other sees what is shown. Showing exists to be seen.
>>
No. 63150 ID: 9b155d

>>63146
It doesn't say they always go to War. The exact wording was "Sharing Purposes usually causes war" so the best case scenario might actually mean they get along wonderfully but that it's extremely rare.

As for >Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

There are canon examples of Third Circle Devas betraying the Primordials they're part of in Exalted. Granalkin a former Third Circle Deva of the Primordial Mardukth, Who Holds In Thrall is now the warden of the Silver Chair, also known as "the Archer on the Silver Pass". Turned from Deva into a God by the Siderals after his betrayal. There's also Inari who was the actual Fetich soul of an unnamed Primordial who helped KILL said primordial. Nothing prevents Devas from offing one another.
>>
No. 63152 ID: cee89f

>>63150
And i said 'tends to', not 'always'

=p

>>63150
Wordblood has said that the Queen can be remade by the Commoner/Noble Devas of her house. I assumed the same could be done for Lords.
>>
No. 63163 ID: 1da170

Obviously, we should make the following souls:

Time
Raccoons
Time Raccoons
Raccoon Time
Time Raccoons Time
>>
No. 63172 ID: 9b155d

>>63152
The remade version is not the same Deva, just a Deva with the same Element and Purpose. And if they're going to War over the Deva butting in on their turf, having the Deva remade doesn't solve the problem. Devas can be killed, it's happened before, and the Nobles would almost certainly be involved in their Lord's War.

My real issue though is more that "Compete at best" when we were told usually they go to war implies there is always going to be some degree of strife between the two when we haven't been told that.

Huh, just noticed how often I keep capitalizing words that seem like they could be elements of a Deva regardless of the context I'm using the word in... I should try and stop that.
>>
No. 63174 ID: cee89f

>>63172
Of course there will be conflict. They're roomates.

>>63163
>Time Raccoons of Time
...

Oh god forgive us, we knew not the horror we would unleash... D=
>>
No. 63183 ID: b24894

Y'know, "Raccoons" is picking up some speed. It's not too late for some of you "Time" people to change your minds.
>>
No. 63185 ID: 70c0f2

>>63183
There should be a law that describes that. The longer you leave the voting open, the more people are going to drift to the silly choice.
>>
No. 63187 ID: cee89f

Okay, look. As awesome an idea Raccoonbending is...
A) RACCOONS ARE NOT AN ELEMENT
B) It was generally agreed that even if it COULD be a Deva's element, Raccoons would be better for something OTHER than a feeding soul (generally either as something for battle or an ascended Hero's soul - though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.)
C) Wordblood's reaction, for the FIRST TIME THAT I CAN REMEMBER, was to not even comment on the potential ramifications of that choice. This is very, VERY bad.
And D), wasn't that a JOKE?!
>>
No. 63188 ID: b6edd6

>though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know
When a weapon is a Deva, is it even possible to make it without sentience?
>>
No. 63189 ID: 70c0f2

>why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.
For the same reason you build a giant mech instead of a tank.

Not because it's more practical, but because it's more awesome.
>>
No. 63190 ID: b24894

When I suggested "Raccoons" as an element, I was being completely serious. I didn't mean it as a joke, and I wasn't being silly. Perhaps it's a little lighthearted (plenty of good things are), but I believe it's a legitimate choice nonetheless.

A Lunar's spirit animal is a special aspect of them that speaks about them in a very personal way. And if it's good enough to be a powerful and defining theme for Saulanna as one of the Exalted, then I think it's good enough for Saulanna as a Primordial.

We also already have an example of a Primordial that is defined by a single animal, even though Gaia probably has a more general power over animal kind. While Kimbery is an ocean that gains power from oceans, who can control the oceans, whom all other oceans are a lesser reflection of, and Malfeas is a city that gains power from cities, and can control cities, and whom all other cities are a lesser reflection of, and so on... we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar.

He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.

So, Saulanna? I think, already having been defined as emphatically Raccoon-like, deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max.
>>
No. 63191 ID: b6edd6

>we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar. [...] He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.
Sounds pretty boaring to me :V
>>
No. 63193 ID: 70c0f2

>deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max
I can accept that, but it doesn't make much sense as a feeder Deva. We need a more appropriate purpose for dominion over all raccoondom.

Fill in an appropriate word, and we'll create the <foo> of Raccoons when we've got some Titan's will to spare. Don't worry, it won't take much... time. B)
>>
No. 63202 ID: cee89f

>>63188
We're TALKING about the HERO'S SOUL *twitch*

>>63189
You don't make that mech able to think for itself, though! Why would you give a weapon you're supposed to control YOURSELF the ability to make decisions?! All you're doing is increasing the likelihood you won't be able to control it.

>>63190
Oh yeah, it was SUCH a serious suggestion that should be making raccoon ropes, raccoon waves and a raccoon bazooka.

>>63191
>boaring
*facepalm*

>>63191
Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

>>63193
Summoner? Warrior?

>it won't take much... time. B)
... *sigh* well, got to now.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH~!
>>
No. 63204 ID: 9b155d

>>63202
>Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

Eh, Isidoros does embody a lot of the characteristics Boars are usually used to represent. That could very well mean he just has Third Circle Demons devoted to those concepts though. Probably more likely to be the case actually since he's really a Black Hole in the shape of a Boar. Basically a representation of an unstoppable force. He has a minimum of Eighteen Third Circle Demons though, so he may very well have one specifically with an element of Boars.
>>
No. 63205 ID: 84df54

Wait a minute...
How was 'Energy' never been suggested as an element for a soul devoted to energy absorption and management?
>>
No. 63209 ID: 42ace1

>>63204
The Dragon's Shadow doesn't have a Soul with the Element of Dragons; just aspects of Shadowy, Slithery, and Slickness (among others) that add up to giving him the form of a dragon. Who is to say that Isidoros is not the same?

>>63205
A little too broad (and rather non-evocative) to my imagination; 'Energy' includes kinetic, and thermal, and electromagnetic, and Essence, and excitement, and, simply put, is too undefined/unrestricted. How do you define 'Energy'?
>>
No. 63214 ID: 70c0f2

>How do you define 'Energy'?
Simple. The capacity of a system to do work.

Although in this setting, you'd have to expand the definition to include more than just physical systems, and you'd have to include forms of energy that don't show up in your average textbook.

But yeah, physics aside, it's really not interesting enough to work with. It's like doubling down on the purpose to no gain. He who Produces and Regulates Mystic Energy through Energy is kinda dull.
>>
No. 63216 ID: b6edd6

>>63205
Will would serve the same purpose (with Titan's Will as the specific energy we are dealing with) as well as doing other useful stuff.
>>
No. 63223 ID: cee89f

...Ya know, I'm beginning to think TIME is going to win. Just a feeling.
>>
No. 63225 ID: 84df54

>>63209
Unrestricted? have you taken a look at us lately? We have the opportunity to eventually gain complete dominion over anything and everything!

Elements are supposed to be extremely broad, especially for Lordly Devas. we're supposed to eventually refine them with sub-souls. I find Time to be totally wasted as element for energy generation/management and extremely boring to boot. What are we going to do when we need some extra TW? Sit around and wait? We could be using Time to see into the past and future, improve our speed, reaction time, healing etc. Hell we could probably use it to speed up the processes of any other Feeder Deva we picked, and those aren't even being ambitious! think what we could have done when we got powerful enough to mess with the causality and time-space!

Of course this is all pretty much moot, unless people start deleting their votes and re-casting we're going to be stuck with Time or (Sol Invictus Help Us!) Raccoons.
>>
No. 63230 ID: 3dd855

>>63225
By 'unrestricted', I meant that 'Energy' can rather easily be expanded to absurdity. That is, Essence is a form of energy and therefore a strong case can be made that the Element 'Energy' should cover Essence. The entirety of the Exalted universe (Creation+Yu Shan+Malfeas+the Underworld+Pure Chaos+...), is made of Essence. (Barring some weirdness like Oblivion, Elsewhere.) Therefore, a Feeding Soul of Energy can eat the entire universe. I hope that I do not need to explain why being able to eat the universe is a bad thing.

TD;DR: unrestricted=goddamn too broad in scope
>What are we going to do when we need some extra TW?
Eat souls. The only method we currently have so far, and the only method that we will have even after we create the Feeding Soul. The bonus provided by the Element is small and really only serves to give thematic structure toward its powers.

>lets forget that people give a damn about casualty (and there are Incarna whose jobs are to enforce casualty)!
...Seriously? You want to fuck with casualty and space-time? Really?
>>
No. 63232 ID: cee89f

>>63225
>>63230

Energy has the same problem Civilization did:
>>62730
Specifically, Civilization had too many possible definitions, so we'd have to lock it in as one or another. (Civ also had the problem that many of those things were not primordial enough, but one thing at a time)
>>
No. 63242 ID: 84df54

>>63230
I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea. I'm just saying that it's a waste of a good element.

>>63232
I disagree.

Civilization is complicated because it is a purely human concept and it's definition is hazy at best. A civilization is when a groups technology, social structure, laws, beliefs, media, etc. have advanced past some ill defined point. It is a theme, not an element.

Energy is simpler, with a quick google I found: 'The property of matter and radiation that is manifest as a capacity to perform work' and 'Power derived from the utilization of physical or chemical resources'.

There are a lot of types of energy but it is still fundamentally energy. Civilization has a lot of aspects but no one of them makes a civilization. If anything Energy is a small element. Just for some scope and precedent; we just learned that Gaia has a second level soul for Energy (not linking, never works and the post is enormous. Just search for 'Hesiesh') and a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.
>>
No. 63250 ID: fb9917

This quest needs more Devil-Tigers.

We haven't met our bondmate yet have we?
>>
No. 63254 ID: 3dd855

>>63242
The Energy of Hesiesh is expressed via his Element of Fire, so we can safely say that thermal energy is entirely within its domain. As Lightning is part of the Air of Mela, and Light and Passion belong to other Nobles of Hesiesh, we can safely say that electricity and light as well as non-physical energy are not included in its domain. Magnetism may be included, but since light is not, then we can say that it is problably not included in the Energy Noble's domain. Kinetic Energy possibly may be included, though I think unlikely. Essence may be included, but likely the breadth of aspected Essence it can manipulate is limited to at least non-opposing aspects, if not only (closely-)related aspects.

There, a small, very short, speculative paragraph on the breadth and limits of the Energy domain, derived from what we know in Lunar Quest canon (Lightning being part of Air is Exalted canon, however).

The important thing you should take from this, is that all those things that I said are not part of the Energy Noble's domain? Include them in the potential Energy domain of the possible Lord Soul. Include everything and anything that could be described as energy. (Don't limit yourself to just real world physics, though I think the definition provided is too broad, because Exalted has fictional natural laws as well.)

So, Passion, Light, Fire, Lightning, all those are part of Energy. Essence, from Moon Essence to Earth Essence to Demon Essence to Death Essence (...well, probably not Death Essence), is part of Energy.

Everything is made of Essence. If Energy includes Essence - which it should - then Saulanna, with one Soul, can do anything.

>a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.
I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the discussion we are having. Is this meant to refer to Energy?

Also, for cross-board linking, include the board and only use the post number to which you are linking. See below
>>/quest/468303
that should link to the Jukashi's Element feedback post.
>>
No. 63255 ID: cee89f

>>63250


If i remember correctly it's been implied and speculated (both in and out of the story) that Peregrin is our bondmate, since Abyssals are formed from Solar Exaltations. Ya'd think we'd have a special sense for that, but I wouldn't know.

>>63242

>I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea.
>or even that it's a GOOD IDEA
Uh...
>that it's a waste of a GOOD ELEMENT.
... XP

That definition doesn't really tell us much, since the only definition we have in this universe is for physical manifestations of energy. What TYPE of energy? Potential energy? (i don't wanna be a weeping angel D=) Kinetic energy? Thermal? Electro-magnetic? Mechanical? And that's just OUR universe. What about temporal energy? Magical? Titanic? Essence? Whatever it is Fate uses to affect reality? Elsewhere's 'boredom'? (admittedly, those last two are a stretch >.> I'm not really sure how boredom is formed into a separate plane - i assumed it was a form of potential energy or something)
>>
No. 63256 ID: fb9917

>>63255
I thought at some point it was explicitly stated that Peregrin was NOT our bondmate?
>>
No. 63260 ID: cee89f

>>63256
I dunno, maybe. My memory's kinda fuzzy and I came in partway through Chapter 2 =/

Unrelated: Can we make a Song Deva, so can we sing songs to make ourselves stronger in ludicrous fashions?
>>
No. 63261 ID: 9b155d

>>63225
Here's a quote from Jukashi for you

>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

Also, a Deva of Energy might restrict what other Devas we can make way too much by blocking waaaaaay too many elements.
>>
No. 63270 ID: 5bf190

In regards Energy... don't think too scientifically about it. This is a fantasy, mythology-inspired universe, after all; one where every object and even every universal principle has some magical being attached to it, and reality is upheld by gods and by the expectations and interactions of living beings. Energy is any motive force, but it has more association with willpower and motivation than anything else, even when applied to inanimate objects.

That said, it is too broad for a Lord deva, really. As the sub-Element supporting a Noble deva, however, it's restricted by nature, either as the expression of a fraction of its parent Element, or as that part of its Element that is thematically linked with its parent. So Hesiesh's Energy subsoul could be specifically limited to forms of energy under the dominion of Fire, with further considerations due to the metaphysics of the setting. So in more contemporary forms, its dominion would be heat, and to a more limited level, kinetic force. Alternately, the word "Energy" could be being used in a more metaphorical way, as "life energy", referring to the fire-like processes that fuel the actions of living creatures.

After all, in Exalted, flesh and blood are earthly, physical substances, and so are formed from the Terrestrial Elements; living flesh and blood are hot, so they must contain Fire, just the same way you breathe so you must have Air in you, your blood is wet so you have Water in you, you grow and heal so you have Wood in you, and your bones are hard so you have Earth in you. Similarly, the Light soul would refer not to actual photons being beamed out, but to a forceful, spiritual substance - something that you can make physical objects out of - and which reveals secrets and pushes away darkness. The darkness which, in turn, is an elemental substance and power source in its own right, not merely an absence. Even the actual, official end-all nothingness of the setting, the Void, Oblivion itself, is something that you can shoot at people.

So you have to readjust your mental parameters a little.
>>
No. 63276 ID: 38cd76

I kind of want to start making tons of devas now. The next two we should make as a matching set. Dark and Light, Order and Chaos, Life and Death, that sort of thing. Truth and Deception? Hm... maybe.

Although, even though they are opposites, they are also somewhat related. Could you have a subdeva of one for the other? That would be interesting.
>>
No. 63278 ID: 87eb8c

>I kind of want to start making tons of devas now.

I know, right? Now that we're here, I keep wanting to make a second soul and call it the feeding Deva's twin or something ridiculous like that.

...

Thought. If we happened to discover how our Hero's soul worked, would we be able to create our own Exalted?

... I mean sure, it seems like something we'd need Autocthon's help for, but it's an interesting thought, at least.
>>
No. 63280 ID: 63f851

>>63270
How do I shot time?
>>
No. 63308 ID: cee89f

... I was counting up the votes for fun, and i realized that i forgot to delete one of my vote posts after reposting another one.

...Woops =( I'll go fix that

....aaand apparently i can't >.> Well f***.
>>
No. 63309 ID: 3dd855

>>63308
Go to #tgchan and ask a mod to delete your post then.
>>
No. 63310 ID: cee89f

>>63309
...
Where?
>>
No. 63313 ID: 1f8505

>>63310

Chat room. #tgchan on Rizon.
>>
No. 63315 ID: f2c20c

Actually, it's easier to just report your own post to ask for it to be deleted.
>>
No. 63317 ID: cee89f

>>63313
... uh...

>>63315
Ah, okay.

---

So for some reason i couldn't report the post either (da fug?) so i went to that Rizon thing i knew nothing about. slinkoboy took care of it.

Thank you slink! =3
>>
No. 63318 ID: f2c20c

>>63317
>couldn't report the post
I don't understand. Are you pushing the Report button after clicking the checkbox on the post?
>>
No. 63321 ID: 38cd76

We need a deva for PASSION.

That would be AWESOME.
>>
No. 63326 ID: cee89f

>>63318
Yes. It said something like 'failed to report, go back and try again'. I went and asked a mod directly, it got removed.

>>63321
You mean Desire? That was suggested and had a decent following but hasn't really made it in.
>>
No. 63339 ID: 38cd76

>>63326

Passion and desire are completely different. Desire is the want of something, passion is emotional excitement.

Come to think of it, a Deva of "AWESOME" would also be pretty awesome.
>>
No. 63342 ID: dc2631

>>63339
>Deva of AWESOME

I'LL BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR
>>
No. 63346 ID: cee89f

>>63339
Normally, yes. But 'Desire' as was being suggested here had the connotations of 'lust', which isn't that far from passion.

>Deva of Awesome
FUCK YEAAAAAH!!!
>>
No. 63353 ID: b24894

This could be ours, if you all would only bow to the raccoon.

(Saulanna) Mythos Exultant
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: First (Saulanna) Excellency

Whenever Saulanna succeeds while stunting on an action that could benefit from her Excellency, she may choose to forgo any number of bonus stunting dice she would normally receive. For each die forsaken in this way, put a 1/1 green 'Raccoon token' with Haste into a space adjacent to Saulanna. If there is a face within (Essence x 2) yards, Saulanna may instead create the Raccoons on that face, rather than putting them adjacent to herself.
>>
No. 63354 ID: 63f851

Freaking hell, there are 70 responses in the main thread. That's just too much. I guess this is kinda popular, huh? Jukashi, next time you might wanna put a time limit on responses so you don't get so damn many.
>>
No. 63361 ID: 38cd76

Everyone needs to go and change their votes to:
1.AWESOME
2.AWESOME
3.AWESOME
now.

That would be pretty awesome.
>>
No. 63362 ID: 34d817

>>63354
Clearly, the only solution is to update every thirty minutes so as to avoid being flooded by suggestions.
>>
No. 63364 ID: fb9917

>>63353
This is a feeding soul. Raccoons obviously needs to be saved for a different kind of soul that doesn't force us to eat raccoons. Have you ever eaten a raccoon? It's awful.
>>
No. 63367 ID: 38cd76

"awesome" should also be good for a feeding soul because, being exalted, Saulana should be surrounded by elemental awesome pretty frequently.

Amirite?
>>
No. 63368 ID: 52daec
File 135253890859.png - (328.96KB , 384x800 , explodingknees.png )
63368

>Deva of Awesome

Next update's gonna take a while to get drawn, by the way.
>>
No. 63369 ID: 38cd76

>>63368
This bodes well. :D
>>
No. 63376 ID: 9b155d

>>63368
Out of curiosity how much of that is due to designing the Deva? Always curious about how long character design takes.
>>
No. 63378 ID: 52daec

>>63376

I actually already had designs for a few of the elements that seemed like they'd be most popular.
>>
No. 63379 ID: dd287a

If we're going time, he better have a moustache!

well, unless it's a lady, a lady with a moustache would be kinda wierd.
>>
No. 63385 ID: e677ca

>>63368
This one better have drills
>>
No. 63388 ID: cee89f

>>63379
Let's give him a stetson! Or a bow tie!

Even in exalted, bow ties are still cool
>>
No. 63390 ID: 70c0f2

>>63378
Thank goodness. That means we don't have to endure a further delay of a secondary character creation process in the middle of the quest, or have to deal with a million attempts to craft it into an Expy of some kind.
>>
No. 63399 ID: 404f8a

>>62936
>>63073

I'm posting this in response to these ones because they're the only ones that talk about it that I can find without rereading the entire thread:

We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us. It is as impossible as Ligier or Kagami "overthrowing" Malfeas or Szoreny to become them, or for your left arm to overthrow and become YOU. Remember that the King or Queen soul in the canon game is called the "Fetich" soul or the Primordial's "Heart", they largely define their Primordial progenerator, but that's because their progenerator chose to imbue them with things that define them. Their soul pantheons are called the "Descending Hierarchy" for a reason. The devas or demons (or even the baleful Hecatonchires of the Neverborn) of a Titan are explanation of the Titan; the map is not the territory so to speak... or in our case, the definition is not the word.

Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords. Although, it probably wouldn't be outside our power to do so, if we so chose; hasn't Kimbery done this by canon? On that note, it also wouldn't be outside our, or even our Lordly souls', power to create Common souls directly: Orabilis of Cecelyne does with his Eyes, and all of Autochthon's Divine Ministers do as well.
>>
No. 63402 ID: 34d817

>>63399
>We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us.
>Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords.
This is explicitly wrong. You should probably review the original description we got from Wordblood regarding our soul structure; while Saulanna has a strong natural position and the basic loyalty of her Lord devas, they are most certainly not as to her as her Nobles are and there is the (usually small) possibility of losing Queen status to one of them. Here are some handy links and quotes.

>>58020
>We are both Lords, and as is natural for Lords, one of us is raised to the level of King - or, in this case, Queen. Though in a sense we are equals, the Queen bears the balance of power - her nature dominates and dictates the interactions of all other souls, and she forms the central nexus and root of our identity as a Titan. The other Lords are subservient to her. Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn assert dominion over their Commoners.

>>58102
>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them.
>>
No. 63404 ID: bf54a8

indeed, which is why we were saying calling one 'the master' would put it in a dangerous position, since we are calling it by a high status it would feel it more deserves to be the leader.
>>
No. 63409 ID: 70c0f2

...you know, that's actually a good reason to not make a dedicated social combat Deva. That would kind of put them in the position of natural mediator between the various Lords.
>>
No. 63413 ID: 404f8a

>>63402
I guess I was wrong then: I was working off of knowledge from the original game line, specifically the (Yozi) Cosmic Principle charm from Return of the Scarlet Empress. I didn't even know any of that was there actually,
>>
No. 63417 ID: 6b8c68

>>63409

I disagree. Make a dedicated social one, but make it a noble soul of ours instead of lordly.
>>
No. 63418 ID: cee89f

>>63399
From wordblood's talk on the matter, it is indeed possible for a Queen to be usurped, and expected of us to make nobles and commoners like any other noble deva:

>>58020
>Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn...
>if the former Queen's House has been weakened, or another House is getting too strong, the death of the Queen will shift the balance and a new King or Queen will be raised from one of the other Lords; then, though the old Queen's house will survive and she may be continued as a Lord, the focus of the kingdom's identity - the Titan's identity - will shift and they may become vastly different.

>>58102
Wordblood implies here that Lords compete with each other, and outright says that the Queen can be usurped by other Lords, if those other Lords prefer that Lord or if they become the 'center' around which the other Lords revolve.

So the question becomes, can a Lord kill a queen or cause her to be killed of it's own volition?

Well, Wordblood is our aide and is naturally inclined to help us, so he's going to be less inclined to even consider the possibility. So let's take a look at what he says, and assume that he's biased against the idea that killing Saulanna is something any Deva would consider.

No offense. In fact I think that's a compliment >.>

>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them. However, this usually only happens either if the original King or Queen is severely injured, or if the Titan in question is deliberately trying to evolve into a somewhat different being. Making new devas and shifting their internal power structure is how fully grown Titans grow and change."

He says that lordly devas compete with each other, and that the Queen is not necessarily different in her own nature - simply with how the other lords interact with her. While the lords are subservient to her, this does not mean they are loyal. It seems to me that the Queen status is a much more informal status than Lord, Noble or Commoner.

To me, this implies the following: Even assuming a Deva can't kill Saulanna (possible, but i doubt it) they could, for instance, come up with ideas and plans the other devas find more attractive than what the queen comes up with. If the other Devas respect, admire, or look up to the other Deva more than Saulanna (or if Saulanna decides the other Deva is doing a better job) power could shift.

...That was very confused and rambling @_@
>>
No. 63420 ID: bf54a8

supposedly this is how the ebon dragon turned into the dragon's shadow, he cannibalized himself changing his identity.
>>
No. 63425 ID: 9b155d

Wordblood is our Dedicated Social Combat Deva guys. Stop trying to double up and give us a Deva who threatens his role and might not be as loyal while having a skillset that would make usurping us much easier.
>>
No. 63426 ID: fb9917

>>63425
No, he is our dedicated Tail Deva. Because he is our tail.
>>
No. 63432 ID: 38cd76

>>63425
That's only a problem if the Deva we make is another Lord. We can easily make Noble Souls too, which do not seem capable of rising to queen status.
>>
No. 63436 ID: e3a7f8

Gotta admit, I'm new here but I am liking this Quest.

On the note of a Time feeding soul, while I do like Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon, I'd be worried about what would happen if the dragon in question was no longer....well, forgotten.

But if it did go with this name, it should definitely look like an Ouroboros. It would have the implications of devouring and remaking itself, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. A deva focused on its own duties, on producing for us and minimizing expenditures or undoing actions, I like that. It's relatively safe, as long as we don't push the boundaries.

Also, artistically it's a nice, "Let's Get Dangerous" moment if the dragon ever uncurls, stops eating itself, and focuses on eating other things.
>>
No. 63444 ID: cee89f

>>63425
technically he's our dedicated personal aide who would happen to be really good at social combat

>>63432
May i direct your attention to:
>>58102
>"Oh, we're definitely very far from making any Nobles."

>>63436
Hooray! =D

>>63278
...So, nobody's interested in this idea, then? =(

Come ooooon, Masked Heroes! We could name 'em Zorros! ...Wait, scratch that idea, it's stupid. We could name our first Awesome-deva-exalted Mr.T! Or Chuck Norris!!
>>
No. 63446 ID: 77bbcb

I'm totally interested in eventually making our own exalted...but that seems like something much further down the road with many more Deva's under our belt.
>>
No. 63448 ID: 38cd76

You know, I was just rereading the old thread and I realized something.

Saulana's basic personality is supposed to be agressive. That means that she's going to have the most confidence, the most success, when she's taking aggressive strategies.

If you recall, that's what eventually ended up working in her encounter with the other Lunars.

I think it's something we need to keep in mind as we continue to ponder her development.
>>
No. 63450 ID: cee89f

>>63446
I know, but i'd like to have fun discussions about it in the meantime =(

For example: caste names (far as i can tell) tend to have a running theme. The Lunar castes, for instance, are named after moon phases. Solar casts are named after times of day (Dawn, Twilight, Zenith, etc) and the Abyssals are basically whatever their corresponding Solar caste is, in reverse. Soooo... Caste names/theme, anyone?

Alternatively we could do what Gaia did and just name the different castes/styles after different elements. Like the Blood/Word Caste or the Time/Legacy Caste.

>>63448
...

...That's... actually a very good point =/ I assumed (and I think the rest of us did, too) that Garmir and our own Hero's soul were causing our anxiety. And it at least partially was (Garmir admitted it outright - douchebag) but it might have been contributed to by Saulanna's passive manner of handling the situation for the most part.
>>
No. 63453 ID: e3a7f8

Yo, I'm the one who posted the Ouroboros idea for a Time Feeding soul a few posts up, I just decided to start using one of my more common screen names around here.

While voting seems like a moot point since Time is the overwhelming favorite, I just felt like making a note that I'm not sure Growth is the safest choice at this moment in time for a Feeding soul.

Oh, it'd be fantastic for getting us more power. That's a good thing. I think the problem is that it will ALWAYS be trying to get stronger. Self-improvement is good. But we can get easy self-improvement via soul-nomming and quite a few morally grey acts. If our Growth Lord Soul feels we are stifling it's growth and development, we'll have that much of a harder time keeping it under control.

We're stronger than our feeding soul, and have Wordblood as back-up, but we'd have to make absolutely sure that it never became strong enough to challenge us, or allied with enough other Lord souls. I really like the concept, but I'm not sure we're strong enough to use it to its full potential.

I still might vote for it because it beats the pants out of a lot of other options, but it's risky. Saving the element for a Noble Soul will probably suffice, even if it pays off more. Maybe even Saulanna's personal Noble Soul, to make sure she remains dominant. But that might just push us off the slippery slope.

Dangerous element, this one.
>>
No. 63454 ID: e3a7f8

Drat, I really need to figure out editing here....

But I do like the idea of an 'Awesome' Feeding Soul. I just don't think it's quite the right word.

Perhaps 'Glory'? That seems more appropriate. As we perform more glorious, awe-inspiring works, we get stronger. A bit like receiving prayer, it's adoration for being sufficient awesome.
>>
No. 63455 ID: 21865d

>>63454

Glory would probably fit better yes...but Glory would sit quite firmly under the banner of the Unconquered Sun...He's not one we want all up in our business right now.

>>63450

Well I think that Saulanna currently lacks enough definition to provide caste themes...though I imagine you could make a bid for some type of raccoon theme. Or perhaps a theme focusing on the synergy between mortal Hero soul and Immortal Primordial soul? Like on the duality of the nature?

What were your ideas?
>>
No. 63456 ID: 9b155d

>>63450
>But we can get easy self-improvement via soul-nomming and quite a few morally grey acts.

I hadn't thought that a Growth Feeding Soul might push harder for that... That's quite the bonus! Almost wish it had been realized sooner so I could've pushed harder for it.
>>
No. 63458 ID: 67e8b2

I'm surprised I didn't see the Elements of Harmony in the vote.

I think they all fit.
>>
No. 63464 ID: cee89f

>>63458
Oh, we saw several of them. Just not explicitly listed as the element of harmony

>>63454
Can't edit. Copy+paste your post back up top and delete the original... actually, copy paste into a notepad document and delete the original first, THEN repost.

>>63455
Didn't have any. My idea was to do what the Dragon-blooded did - come up with five powers only tangentially related to each other, give them a feature that marks them as one of us (say, a black mask) and name the different powers and abilities based on the Deva they come from. For instance:

Blood Caste/Aspect: Diplomats, negotiators. They have the power to instantly comprehend any language (something we were able to do at soul force one, which I believe we were told was weak even for a magical creature) and

Legacy/Clock caste: Warriors and masters of progression. To them, space is warped and time is bendable. They can slow down or speed up Time, turning weeks-long trips into days, shifting and flowing around blows even other exalted would find too quick to dodge.

But since of those have a wide, overarching theme to the specific powers as of yet (the Dragon-blooded are tied into the fabric of life and existence, for example) I thought someone else would come up with something that was better than my idea =p

>>63453
Indeed.
>>
No. 63465 ID: 70c0f2

>Can't edit. Copy+paste your post back up top and delete the original... actually, copy paste into a notepad document and delete the original first, THEN repost.
Even better, get an addon for your browser that saves form text. Lazarus is a godsend if you find yourself having to frequently correct mistakes.
>>
No. 63469 ID: 21865d

>>63464

I see. I could definitely see making the themes off of our Lords, assuming we only have a few, or once we get powerful enough to make Nobles or upgrade Lords to Nobles use those as Themes.

I definitely like the idea of all heroes of Saulanna having a black mask...The Masked Heroes...has a decent ring.

I also agree that Blood/Word Caste should happen, as Wordblood is a rather large part of Salanna's character, and I think he always will be. Assuming a Time Feeding Soul, your idea for Legacy Caste is interesting. If a Growth soul ever happens, we could use that as a theme...that cast would probably develop quicker and be good at bringing about growth and positive change in others.

Going off of the ideas currently out there for the Feeding soul, Desire would be, I imagine, similar to the Sidereals of Venus. Civilization and Culture would be able to integrate with, create, sustain, and manipulate those aspects of humanity. Knowledge/Truth would just know things, probably more sorcery based.

Those are just a few ideas.
>>
No. 63470 ID: 1752c2

Good point about Glory being firmly under the banner of the Unconquered Sun. We're really not ready to put our ball in his court.

In fact, depending on our objectives, Glory can very easily backfire on us. Glory is great in this setting. There are more chances to be awesome than even an Exalted can shake a stick at. We will get power and we'll get it fast.

But one thing to remember: you either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain.

If we align ourselves with Glory, Heroism, and the like, we make ourselves eminently suited for the current setting. We'll be The Good Guys. But suppose we have a Lord soul of Glory, what then? Will we be driven to perform glorious, awe inspiring, EVIL acts? Glory does not equal Good. And we do have an Aggressive personality. Something tells me we will not be content with the status quo for as long as we possess it.

If we ever do take a Glory aligned soul, I think I suggest we do it as a Noble soul. Perhaps under Heroism. That way we'll focus on achieving Glory through heroic acts. The only problem would be if we start getting overzealous....

Oh dear. I'm beginning to think that choosing active, aggressive souls will only doom us to eventual failure. At absolute best outcome there is that we are driven always towards positive things, like expanding Creation, doing overall net positive things. But it's so terribly likely that we'll jump off a slippery slope. We might be the Nice Guy of the moment, but how long before our former allies decide that we're becoming too dangerous?

Maybe our best option will be to hop in the Pleasure Doom and dope up. It may be the only way to keep us from meddling, if we become sufficiently powerful and motivated. Utopia is impossible if you desire change. And our personality and abilities dispose us towards changing the world around us. Could we really resist?

For the moment there is plenty to do. We are a weapon in a war. At the moment we do not need to be sheathed. But should we win, how long until will we be content?

And how likely is it that the gods and Incarnae will think of this as well? That while we may be useful in the moment, however good our intentions we will only become a new foe to vanquish?

We might want to find a way to take a page from Luna or Gaia's book, or perhaps the Ebon Dragon, and make sure we have a way to reinvent ourself, should a time come when our current personality and abilities are more harmful than good.

Unless we WANT to try and take over Creation....
>>
No. 63471 ID: 21865d

>>63470

I see the setting as having that as a theme. Incredibly well-meaning people doing horrible horrible things because they've gotten too bored/powerful/dedicated to the pursuit of positive change. But I think for now, taking aggressive souls would only make things harder on us. I think we should focus on taking a passive soul or two to balance out our natural aggression before we start looking at those kinds of options.

And honestly, it would not go amiss to say that taking over Creation might be the best thing for it...think of all the shadow wars that would end...all the future wars that could be averted. The undisputed Queen of creation rules all and keeps the peace....what could possibly go wrong?
>>
No. 63472 ID: 1752c2

>>63471

Fair point as the setting having that theme. And I agree that we need some passive souls. Well, Wordblood is kind of passive, but he's also devoted to us so he's not holding us back too much.

I think Time could actually help us become more passive. Give us a wider perspective. Bonds could also work for that, but could make us too passive.

I think it's a good thing that we're choosing Time. Well, unless it turns out to be extremely aggressive and wants to rewrite Reality. Then we're going to have to work to keep it in line.

Seriously, if our Lord souls start rebelling and keep the Titan's Will they produce for themselves, to make themselves stronger, we could easily be looking at them taking us over. If they're not loyal to us or want to be in charge, we cannot rely on them happily handing over the power we made them to create.
>>
No. 63476 ID: cee89f

>>63471
Well first, the gods/goddesses of Plot, Comeuppance or Irony could hear that.

>>63472
Think we should ask Wordblood about that? Personally I think that the Time Lord Deva will be as loyal to us as he is, at least at first. We're basically forming him/her out of a part of ourselves, right?

>>63469
I wasn't sure of what else we could really use to give our heroes their powers. I mean, as far as I can tell, exaltations are deeply tied to their creators, to the degree that Death Hero powers radically altered the instant their masters changed from Oblivion to the Dragon. We don't have much that defines us, besides amnesia (which I don't want to give to people who want exaltation enough to get it) our Lunar powers are definitely Luna's domain. Dunno if Copyright is an issue amongst the gods, but I'd prefer not to find out =/ If you have another idea, I'm open to suggestions.

... Actually, that amnesia thing isn't too bad of an idea... or at least, it's an interesting one. Exaltation in our names would cause memory loss and for their Savvy to increase to a level not unlike our own. Before we exalt someone though, we have them leave a message for themselves, a la Amnesia the Dark Descent.

It gives the exaltation something unique (far as I know) and gives a new weight to the term 'Masked Heros...'

...

Then again I can't see any reason a generally good person would FORCE someone to forget anything they- OH! What if we exalted criminals who want to reform? We had our beginnings as a theif and was reborn as a titan! Assuming our healer soul is a deva of rebirth (like we talked a bit about earlier), we could even gain power from our own exalts being reborn as Masked Heroes!

Sounds awesome, right?!

... Anybody?

...No?

Just me?

... Fine. =p But I'd still like to ask Wordblood his feelings on gaining our own exalts at some point... though that'll be a LOOOOOOONG way down the line if it ever happens at all.
>>
No. 63479 ID: 1752c2

>>63476

I expect the Time Deva will start out loyal. Or at least neutral. It really depends on its priorities. Saulanna's priorities are ours. Wordblood's priorities mostly revolve around ours, or what he thinks is best for us, and himself. The Time Deva? What will it want? To explore its own capabilities? To feed, and feed often? Maximize efficiency? How willing to follow directions will it be?

I think it's more likely to be amenable to us than something like Growth or Will. Anytime Wordblood says hard to control or something to that effect, I assume he means it will put its own priorities above ours unless coerced otherwise. So we'll either have to accommodate it or subdue it.

Time wasn't mentioned as being hard to control, so I think we'll be okay on that front, at least from the start. We're the older ones, more experienced, and stronger. We can make a strong impression on what's essentially a new character.

Hopefully we can convince it that following us is best. We have the experience and loyalty of Wordblood. We will focus on everyone's survival. It will focus on producing energy and resources so that we may better secure said survival and develop our powers. Symbiosis. If we can make it WANT to follow our lead, and we prove capable, then hopefully that will secure its loyalty and obedience.

Besides, our initial Feeding Soul won't provide much to start with IIRC. It can't do TOO much for us. We'll still be pulling most of the wait, the Feeding Soul is just an investment. While it is still weak, we prove ourselves strong. We nurture it, let it know that if it continues to be a good Feeding Soul, it will become stronger for it.

Establish that mutual trust early on. When multiple sides don't trust each other, we waste resources because of that mistrust. If we can establish a strong rapport early on, and keep it, we will produce maximum gains. We provide evidence to sow that yes, this strategy works and it works best. If we can show how mistrust causes wasteful resources, and we just so happen to be in a situation where mistrust is gobbling our resources, then we solidify our point.

This is the strategy I'd use on a difficult soul like Growth or Will. Convince them that we know best, provide evidence that this is so, and assure them that in the long term this is best. With a soul not so uncooperative like Time seems like it will be, I hope it's super-effective.

And we have Wordblood on our side to help us make our point. I'm hoping we can make this sucker imprint on us right from birth, more than he may already be. Best of all, if this DOES work, then when we do make a willful soul like Growth or Will, we have ready evidence that our way works. Three Lord souls that are alive, developing, and hopefully thriving because of this mutual cooperation (dependent on Saulanna as head).

Oh yeah, and maybe give them the idea that Peregrin's oath may only hold so long as we are Queen. If anyone tries to overthrow us they'll just shoot themselves in the foot, and our allies will try to save us. Carrot and stick. Obey us and thrive, disobey and succeed or fail, they lose overall.

....My this was a fun thought exercise!
>>
No. 63480 ID: 70c0f2

Masked heros, and reformation of thieves seems a decent start into an exaltation theme. I really don't think Saulanna's own powerset and themes are developed enough to seriously consider things like castes, yet.

>deva loyalty
I don't think loyalty is so much important as position. Except in extreme circumstances, our Devas are going to want to stick together- not break off on their own, or try to kill us. The trick is just making it so we're the natural leader- that we don't allow ourself to become marginalized or subservient. It's a more subtle problem than outright revolt.
>>
No. 63481 ID: 63f851

I think everyone's worrying way too overmuch about the loyalty thing this early. If the time-thingy immediately starts making noise that it wants to eat us, then we can worry about it, but for now the potential problem is so far in the future it's way past the horizon. All we really need to do to avoid it is simply make our new souls harmonious with us and each other, and since they're supposed to work together anyways it won't be very difficult.

The "Create our own Exalted?" discussion I'd bet a dozen muffins will never amount to anything in the actual Quest. It's a fun discussion, but I think y'all might be going just a little stir-crazy in here.
>>
No. 63483 ID: 70c0f2

>The "Create our own Exalted?" discussion I'd bet a dozen muffins will never amount to anything in the actual Quest.
Theoretically, it could come up in a sequel, once we get Saulanna up to absurd power levels and playing as her directly becomes difficult. It's kind of analogous to what happened to Tom, once he officially ascended to godhood and we made Muo a chaos disciple.
>>
No. 63484 ID: 67e8b2

I just hope they are good natured. Saulanna and Wordblood could use someone more optimistic to cheer them up.
>>
No. 63492 ID: cee89f

>>63481
It's an entertaining topic while we wait for Jukashi to finish the next update. If you want the topic to change, come up with something else to talk about. -.-
Also, what s/he said.
>>63483
>>
No. 63494 ID: 1752c2

SON OF A BITCH!

Was rereading the second thread and noted Peregrin saying that the Dragon's Shadow is rumored to be able to control time in his new domain, possibly to the extent of undoing events. Titans manipulating time is apparently not uncommon, although Time Devas are.

If the Dragon's Shadow has a Time Deva, we may be stepping into deeper shit than I'd expected. And now that I think about it, which of the elemental dragons are missing again? Time and something else?

Because I am currently VERY worried that the Dragon's Shadow has somehow absorbed them and is using them for his purposes.

I can't even say that if this is true, we shouldn't make a Time Deva. This might be a way for us to resist this danger. It could be leverage on us, or an ace in the hole. Peregrin didn't mention anything about the Time Deva, even if Wordblood likes the idea.

....I'm really not sure whether to hope I'm right or wrong. I'm hoping this little theory of mine is bunk but if it's not....
>>
No. 63495 ID: 21865d

>>63476

I love this idea of Amnesia stricken heroes looking for a rebirth...a lot.

>>63479

I, like a few others, believe that given the incredibly young age of this soon to be new-born soul, coupled with the fact that we are crafting it from a piece of ourselves will make it exceptionally loyal to the cause, as it were. Showing it that the loyalty isn't misplaced is probably a good idea, but I don't think we have to worry about it conspiring against us.
>>
No. 63496 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/471198

Game over. 10/10 would play again.

So on the topic of other topics we could discuss: What ways could Saulanna's Lunar exaltation mix with her implanted Titan-ness and Wordblood? What can we do with Peregrin's shadowland in the short, long, and super-long term? Should we look into learning sorcery? Who and what can we eat, and which would be most tasty? Raccoons or Raccoons?

...How do we, eventually, increase Saulanna's AROUSAL levels enough to input sexual commands?
>>
No. 63500 ID: cee89f

>1: Raccoons
>2: Fuck You
>3: Raccoons

Classy.

>>63494
....
Okay. First.

That was because he destroyed the Underworld's calendar and - from the sound of it - made the Underworld a part of his world-body. Even if you discount the latter as baseless guessing on my part, the former isn't going to be something that regularly occurs.

Secondly, even if that WERE something Titans did on a regular basis (i sincerely doubt it) this is the only instance we know of where a titan without a Time deva did something with Time.

We are fine. Stop panicking.
>>
No. 63502 ID: 38cd76

A freedom deva also strikes me as very fitting. I'm not sure what it's purpose would be, but it would be very fitting. Especially if you consider her history, both pre and post exaltation. And then if you consider that she's a moon exalted too, it works all the same. Freedom has great connotations, and could have some really interesting related abilities.
>>
No. 63504 ID: 70c0f2

>>63502
Except freedom is worrying close to the Dragon's Shadow's theme of rebellion. Which either makes us subject to his influence, or in competition with him. I don't think either of those is anything we want anytime soon.
>>
No. 63505 ID: e3a7f8

>>63500

Destroying the calendar, I admit I forgot. But apparently Titans do manipulate time regularly.

>Many Titans can influence the passage of time, my lady, but only a few Titans have had lordly Time souls.

So yeah, apparently Titans have some influence on time, and a few have lordly time souls. Peregrine mentioned that the Dragon's Shadow is rumored to be able to undo events.

>"Ah, that's our friend the Dragon again. He destroyed the Calander that moved the days of the dead, so now time flows according to his will. An hour in a day here, a decade in a month there. Some say he can even undo events that have already happened, though there's no evidence beyond vague rumour.

I hope that is just rumor. But if it's not, and he's using a Time soul to save scum events within his domain, this could be trouble.

Maybe he does have one, maybe he doesn't. It's certainly a card that makes sense to keep close to his chest. And I seriously do hope that he didn't nom on Gaia's missing dragons.



Although concerning extra themes....how about Reincarnation? In a way, we reincarnate ourselves. The slate was wiped clean, we were given a new chance and a new life. Reincarnation could be a good theme for us, and a way to regulate ourselves. Reinvention would be similar of a smaller basis, but has less wide reaching connotations.

And hey, if we get strong enough in that area, maybe we can apply that to Exalted and Exalted shards, getting them away from the Titans/Dragon's Shadow. They wouldn't be the same person afterwards, no....but maybe they don't want that. Maybe they want a second chance instead. It ties in better with Luna too.
>>
No. 63506 ID: cee89f

>>63505
We discussed rebirth, though Wordblood thought it would work best as a healing soul or something.
>>
No. 63507 ID: e3a7f8

>>63506

Which I don't....hmm. Okay, maybe I do disagree slightly, because if we can get extra Titan's Will by reincarnating spirits, it might be worthwhile. If we can find a way to send spirits to us when they die, it could work. Maybe. I suspect it wouldn't go so smoothly. If it gives us a moral pass for nomming souls though, because we are doing a 'good' process to them and we get bonuses for it, that's not too bad. We'd just need to find a way to get a steady influx of souls. If we can reincarnate all the ghosts trapped here we may get A. Power, B. Possibly derail the Dragon a bit, and C. Potentially bring down more heat than we're ready for.

Well, something to think about.

But I don't disagree with saving it for a Healing Soul. Though I think rebirth and reincarnation are slightly different. Only slightly, but it may be worth considering at a later date. Still good with Time as our Feeding Soul.
>>
No. 63508 ID: 3dd855

>>63507
>get extra Titan's Will by reincarnating spirits
You make no sense. We get Titan's Will by deconstructing the spirits. Where do we get the Titan's Will, if we are letting the spirits pass by? The bonus for Element-aligned generation is slight, so that shouldn't make an appreciable difference.

>let's break lethe
no. stop. why are you breaking a functional process and replacing it with a more-fallible system?

also, ghosts are ghosts because want to be. if they didn't want to be ghosts, then they can just let go and pass on to lethe. why are you violating their desires.

that's not moral.

...the entire idea is not moral.
>>
No. 63509 ID: e3a7f8

>>63508

Actually, I was under the impression that a lot of souls around here at the moment can't reincarnate at all. For them it's not a matter of choosing to remain a ghost, they're stuck there whether they like it or not. At least as far as places with the Dragon's Shadow is concerned. If they can't move on, the developing a way to let them move on would be a good thing. Or, well, it's really more putting them out of their misery. Their time is up, letting them hang around just gives the Dragon's Shadow more people in his realm. Considering he has a high level soul associated with Death, I get the impression that keeping souls from reincarnating properly is part of his plan....

Plus, limited amount of soul in the world. If people keep sticking around as ghosts in the Dragon's Shadow's domain, then those are souls that aren't being fed back into the system. If everyone refuses to pass on and we let them, then we start running out of souls.

I'm less about breaking the current reincarnation system. It DOES work. But I also was under the impression that the reincarnation system exists because the Titans didn't feel like doing all the reincarnating themselves. So we can perform the same function, get bonuses for it, do it more efficiently....

Yeah, it sucks that they have to pass on. I think the idea is horrifying, to be obliterated like that. I'd never volunteer for it. But fuck, that's reincarnation for you. We can't let everyone hang around until they're ready to go.
>>
No. 63519 ID: 38cd76

>>63504
Freedom and rebellion are not the same thing at all. I had written up a post compare and contrast, but I lost it somewhere. I'll just say... rebellion is the opposition to authority. That is the concept. Freedom is more... liberty. The Power to Choose for Oneself. It's more in line with Luna, than with the Dragon's Shadow.

>>63508
From what I understand, you're both right. We ARE just absorbing the souls, but we are also letting them pass through. It's the same function as what would happen naturally, only we're getting the energy from it instead of something random, before it then goes and does something else.

At least, that's the impression I got.
>>
No. 63520 ID: 21865d

>>63519

The way I understood Exalted's setting is that all the experiences of a soul are shucked off in the cycle, before rebirth (except in the case of some heroic souls). Our eating of souls is allowing them to pass into the cycle naturally, we are just putting the experience to use by pulling it away before they rejoin the cycle. It's like making the soul new before it reaches the 'pool-o'-souls'.
>>
No. 63521 ID: e3a7f8

>>63520

Yeah, that's about what I thought. Unless we decide to keep the soul-stuff for ourselves.

Of course, with a soul aligned with Reincarnation/Rebirth, and a Feeding Soul at that, we could almost certainly get Titan's Will from reincarnating single souls, or enough souls. If Wordblood can get Titan's Will from consuming the written word, I see no reason why we can't get it by performing with Reincarnation with the right Deva.

Of course, we're clearly gonna get Time at this point, but still. If we get efficient enough at reincarnation/stripping memories from souls before sending them on their way, and a Reincarnation/Rebirth soul, we could get serious skills and power.
>>
No. 63522 ID: 21865d

>>63521

Your point about Wordblood reminded me that we can't forget why we originally wanted to go into the library. We will eventually have to go back so we can have him absorb the information from the books.
>>
No. 63523 ID: cd4189

>>63522
While we're talking about things we can't forget, let's not forget the Music Box quest line. It's less immediately pressing, but still worth investigating.

But yes, we need to read the stuff in there. At some point at least. With Peregrin's permission, because I don't think we'll be getting more than a single measure of Titan's Will, while we will definitely deprive our minion of his library.

...Okay, I think I remember why we decided not to om nom nom the library. Too little gain, and we kind of screw over Peregrin. We can't even replace the books we consume.
>>
No. 63524 ID: 21865d

>>63523

I think we had decided not to eat the books, just scan them for information. Didn't Wordblood say something about being able to absorb the knowledge from books without destroying them?
>>
No. 63527 ID: 70c0f2

>>63519
You're overlooking the fact that one of the Dragon's Shadow's Deva's explicitly has freedom as it's element.

>>59000
>The Dragon's Shadow: Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change, Death, ???

It's also interesting to note that in quest, Saulanna decided the best description for him was a a sort of Titan of rebellion- but none of his Devas actually have that as their element. Theme does not necessarily equal element. Although it's not hard to make the case how those could all be seen as related to rebellion.

>Didn't Wordblood say something about being able to absorb the knowledge from books without destroying them?
Yes. He said it would be like having your cake and eating it too. Doesn't work.

We can read books, or we can absorb them. Or we can have scribes make us copies of books for us to absorb (Kaan suggested that). That's the closest we can get to having it both ways.
>>
No. 63528 ID: bf54a8

what about just narrowing it down? feel the pulse of information to just know that the information we are thinking about is on this shelf?
>>
No. 63529 ID: cee89f

>>63520
... what on EARTH gave you that idea? Wordblood made it very clear that the soul was NOT going back into the reincarnation cycle.

>>63524
That it couldn't be done and the idea was ridiculous-sounding?

>>63523
Peregrin stipulated he would try and find any duplicates we could absorb.

>>63528
eh... maybe. We'd probably need to give wordblood an ability for it, but we should at least ask if it can be done.
>>
No. 63530 ID: f2c20c

>>63520
Reincarnation does work like that- there is absolutely nothing carried over between lives unless it's a Heroic Soul. Essentially whenever a mortal soul is reused it reverts to a default state. All newly reincarnated souls are the same. It's like wiping down a chalkboard.

However, when we eat a soul, we eat what's written on the chalkboard AND we eat the chalkboard too. That soul is not reincarnated, though honestly the only moral issue with that is that there are then less souls in circulation. Eventually, we can make new "chalkboards" via passive generation and give back what we "borrowed". The simple act of eating souls is like taking a loan from the reincarnation process. It's not evil.

Now, there IS a moral issue involved here- in order to eat a soul we have to kill the ghost using the soul. We killed those guards and that mob boss, and that's still not a nice thing to do even if we felt it was necessary. We should not be arguing about whether eating souls is evil, we should be arguing about whether killing ghosts is evil.
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No. 63536 ID: c735d3

>>63530
> That soul is not reincarnated, though honestly the only moral issue with that is that there are then less souls in circulation.

That's not a problem. Creation has mechanisms to create new souls. It has to. Otherwise the Titans would have to manually create new souls every time the population grew beyond a set limit. That would be tedious. The Titans created the gods and such to avoid micromanaging the affairs of creation; therefore they made the Well of Souls. It's briefly described in the Ink Monkey article discussing the cycle of reincarnation of Autocthonia and how it differs from Creation.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Ink_Monkeys,_vol._4:_Soulgems_and_Thaumaturgy

Of course Lunar Quest may differ from the cannon. We'll see.

Incidentally, due to the radically different way reincarnation works in Autocthonia, I would consider it wrong to eat any Autocthonian soul. Although, it's not like Saulanna knows any of that in character though.
>>
No. 63537 ID: fb9917

>>63530
Kill and eat all the ghosts. Except the nice ones.
>>
No. 63538 ID: 38cd76

>>63537
Hoo-ray!
>>63527
I stand corrected. I do think it would be a good deva though. I find it intriguing that He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word had Beauty as a deva before. Will we naturally get that back if we find any more pieces of him, or would he make that one of his noble souls?
>>63536
I find this informative. Thanks!

It's gotten to the point where I check two or three times a day just to make sure that the update hasn't come yet. Do I have a problem?


I am reminded also, as long as we're bringing up old plot threads, of the other Pieces of He Who Bleeds that we were told about. I really think it would be a great way to go about expanding our power base, if we could actually go and look for some of those.
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No. 63543 ID: cee89f

>>63538
The problem is that you're not checking to see that it HASN'T updated! Have some faith/hope, my friend! We WILL see this update again! Soon...

...Must not... give up...

...

*munches on some popcorn*
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No. 63557 ID: cd4189

Hmmm.....on the topic of Growth, Wordblood mentioned that it sits on a grey area of Purpose and Element.

Perhaps instead of using Growth as an element, we should assign it as a Purpose? That way we can choose an Element that we would like to develop, and focus on Growth, well, growing it as quickly and effectively as possible.

Growth was suggested to us over Evolution or Self-Perfection. Supposing we could assign Growth as a Purpose, could that help remove the limitations of Evolution? It could have us focus on growing stronger, but also on reinventing ourselves if need be. Or perhaps this would carry over to the Noble Souls? We could cultivate Luna-aligned traits with this combination.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Other Elements that could be assigned to a Growth purpose? Errors in logic I made? I'm musing at this point but would like to muse with other people on this subjects, lacking an update to focus on.
>>
No. 63558 ID: cee89f

>>63557
...

Is there any reason we can't do both? Make the Growth soul also be have the Growth element? Like if Wordblood had been made a Communicator deva instead of an Aide (no offense to wordblood - i'm just trying to see if this would work)

I mean, it definitely sounds like something that we shouldn't do in this case (it could easily become too difficult to control) but i mostly want to know if a deva's purpose and element can be the same thing.
>>
No. 63559 ID: fb9917

>>63557
We should probably think really hard before making a bunch of Lordly souls that will impact our entire way of thinking. We don't want to end up being a Titan representing something really stupid. The feeding soul is necessary, but other souls really need a lot of thought on how they will change us. Growth might be a good purpose, but I think we would want to be really careful about the Element of the soul. And then we have to think about subsouls too.
>>
No. 63560 ID: cd4189

>>63558

Oh for the love of us, no, not now. We're committed to a Feeding Soul. A soul with the Purpose of Growth will still have the drawbacks of being difficult to control.

A Growth Element and Growth purposes....could be interesting. Definitely. It could be really good at making us want to get stronger, and successfully. Other people too. If we can't have that, a Will Element with a Purpose of Growth could also work. But that would be crazy hard to control I suspect.
>>
No. 63582 ID: 38cd76

I was thinking, maybe we could do something like Peace for a social soul, and Strength for like... a battle soul or something.

I'm liking a lot of yin and yang concepts. I like peace. We should have a peace soul. But we also would need a war soul of some sort to balance it out.

Balance! Yeah, or something.

How about a Growth soul with the element of war, and then a Healing Soul with the element of Peace or something like that?

That'd work pretty well, I think.
>>
No. 63589 ID: cee89f

>>63560
I meant LATER, man -.- when we actually MAKE a growth deva

>>63582
...

Growth deva with the element of war. When we're trying to establish ourselves as a force for good in the world.

...

You don't see a problem with that?

An immediate, obvious, GLARING problem with that?*

I mean, I like the whole ying-yang idea you're going for (though it seems like a recipe for a very chaotic world-body) but trying to immediately go for the war/peace route seems to be hurting the idea =/

*The problem is that the deva will want to wage war - a lot and often - to grow in power.
>>
No. 63592 ID: 38cd76

>>63589
It worked for the Scarlet Empress.
>>
No. 63598 ID: f481bc

Actually, our Aggressive temperament WOULD favor us making War in order to grow stronger. If we take that route, we're probably going to end up favoring War over other things, just because we already have a foot in the door by being Aggressive.

The whole yin-yang thing is nice, but unless we find a way to establish a balance between the two, we're gonna give ourselves some major headaches by having two relatively contradictory instincts. At best we focus on growing stronger in strife, and heal/grow stronger in peace time. But I suspect that the Growth Deva will be much more aggressive and influential in our personality.

Kind of a shame we can't go the Martial Pacifist route at the moment. Again, our temperament is not inclined in that direction. It's the 'path' I myself would prefer if we end up focused on War. When we fight, we pull out all the stops in the name of ending the conflict as quickly and efficiently as possible, and focus on peacetime endeavors when not in conflict.
>>
No. 63599 ID: cee89f

I had a thought. Can we ask Wordblood how a titan establishes a theme for itself? Like... He who Bleeds was a dragon who could do things like drip venomous slander from his fangs. Presumably, that form was the 'king' and had those powers because of his devas.

...that's kinda confusing, lemme rephrase. How does the Queen/King gain physical features related to their devas, such as the aforementioned venomous slander? Is it passive, like several of our deva abilities? Would they become more pronounced as Saulanna's power grows, or as our devas do?

>>63592
The Scarlet Empress ruled an empire of snide fate-wielders and eugenicists in a global campaign to wipe out the embodiments of good and virtue in the world.

Yeah. The Solars were worse and NEEDED to be brought down. But don't pretend it was a GOOD thing =p

>>63598
...I still don't like War for a Growth deva, or even a War deva in general. It seems like something that would wage war just for the sake of it.

If we really want to though, couldn't we give the element to a deva with a purpose that gives it good reason to maintain self-control? Like a a Defense purpose with a war element?
>>
No. 63600 ID: f481bc

>>63599

Ooh, Defense Purpose with War Element is pretty clever. That said, it doesn't match our Aggressive temperament very well. That's still a good idea and template to keep in mind.
>>
No. 63602 ID: 70c0f2

>>63600
Defense through war is aggressive. It's basically the whole philosophy behind a kind of Pax Romana. The best defense is a good offense.

That said, I think we're kind of thinking about new Devas in the wrong way here. We have two considerations:

Theme. What kind of Titan will we be? Words/Communication and Time already have several different relationships between them, and we could swing that to establish a few different themes depending on how we act going forward. How will a chosen Deva effect that balance?

Need. We made a feeder Deva because we desperately needed a way to produce energy, and manage the energies we already have (that's strategy games 101 logic). We made it a time element because it was the most interesting choice, and the one most strong endorsed by our current adviser. So what do we need next? Logically, our next biggest problem, after energy, is the competing forces in the world we have to deal with (Luna, the Lunars, Dragon's Shadow, people we've yet to meet, etc.). Logically, we need a Deva who can help us with them. I see a few approaches to this: (1) We could opt to find some way to hide or conceal ourself from them. (2) We find some way to manipulate, subvert, recruit or ally with these factions. (3) We make ourselves ready to fight. (In simplest terms, hide, talk, or fight). We should pick a course of action- and then a purpose that supports it. Then we seek an element that interacts thematically with what we already have, and that has interesting applications and/or implications for that purpose.

So let's start there. How do we want to approach the other powers in this world?
>>
No. 63605 ID: fb9917

>>63602
I kind of prefer the idea of hiding what we are over making an alliance with any of the groups we've met so far. Individual Exalts are one thing, but once they start forming groups they are just not the most trustworthy. I don't know anything about the Red Sun Heroes, though, those guys might be okay? Or they might be HORRIBLE, who knows. Infernal fluff is so stupid it shouldn't exist, but mechanically they are probably the most likely type of Exalt to be sane. The Great Curse doesn't affect them and the Urge is basically the least effective tool for making an Exalt do anything ever. But we definitely don't want anything to do with a LOYAL Infernal. As for Primordials and Gods most of them we should probably stay well away from, although Autobot might be helpful. He might also be asleep and dying though. And his Exalts would probably want to murder us.

So I'm thinking Stealth soul to hide us from other Titans! Any thoughts?
>>
No. 63606 ID: cee89f

>>63600
I was thinking such a Deva would be very aggressive, but only in a defensive context - ie, if it saw a need for an attack, it would take the opportunity, but would not try to CREATE such an opportunity.

>>63602
It was generally agreed we should try and be a good person, and convince Luna, Sol and others that we would be a force for good in the world. However, this is a very, VERY dangerous world, so we're also going to need to know how to fight, and Saulanna's got an agressive temperament...

...Then again.

Saulanna is the Queen of the titan world-body, but she's already aggressive. We don't need another agressive Deva just for the sake of an agressive deva - Saulanna IS an agressive Deva... sort of. Even if we eventually need a deva for offense, we're already a Moon Hero. We're already FRACKING BADASS. We can afford to leave an offense soul for later.

I'd say what we would need would be a way to heal, or bring up a strong defense for when we're NOT on the attack. So a Healing or Defense Deva.

>>63605
Stealth doesn't seem like it would fit very well with Saulanna's personality. She's a very aggressive individual, and I'm starting to become convinced that a lot of our failures in this chapter came from our attempts to be passive and/or reasonable. Our fight with Akatrina was appallingly one-sided, and we couldn't lie to Garmir or Askalaff in a way that did anything other than convince them 'okay shes not under mind control'.
>>
No. 63608 ID: fb9917

>>63606
I'm not sure how having a Stealth focused soul implies we have to be passive. I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero. We can go fight whoever, I just don't think we should tell the Incarna about our newfound status as one of those guys they created Exalts to kill!
>>
No. 63609 ID: 8a4f0f

I'm beginning to be getting to be convinced that we don't need a dedicated social or defense or anything like that yet, but what we need is maybe tools. For instance, seeing seeing deva of truth like Wordblood mentioned earlier. This would both help is see truth, and conceivably, affect the truth we let others see. An alternative would be knowledge, but wordy called dibs.
>>
No. 63610 ID: b978d0

Well, I've been following things from the shadows long enough. Time to add my own voice to the cacophony.

With the way that the current discussion is going it seems as if focus has shifted almost entirely to the creation of Deva. Improving Wordblood is showing up as a tangential line of thought at best.
It also seems that Saulanna's primary soul is being almost completely disregarded as a result of the shift of focus to the newly available mechanic.

While Saulanna, Wordblood, and any other sub-souls are all part of one whole, they are also individuals unto themselves. As such, I think that the different component parts of Saulanna (the titan) need to be regarded more as a collection of interdependent individuals. Currently they seem to be treated more like meta-game mechanics instead, which just won't work in the long run.

Saulanna (the individual) is the one that should be fulfilling the role of several of the core elements that have been discussed. Growth and Will in particular being things that should be left to the Queen to rule on, as befits the role of a leader. Once she has been given a chance to develop herself, and only then, should creation of assistants for these elements be considered. She isn't so busy with managing her development as a titan to need such assistance yet.

When it comes to Wordblood, I think Saulanna was very fortunate to have such a loyal and knowledgeable advisor. He is already a very good counterpoint to her instinctive lunar nature, and even in his weakened state has demonstrated a wealth of knowledge. I would suggest developing him further over creation of a social deva of some sort. Words = communication = social behaviour after all.

As for the feeder Deva, I'd say Time is currently the best option that has been discussed. It will likely play nicely with others, so long as it's not disrupted too much. The inexorable advancing of time and all that. This could also have good defensive and offensive applications as well, as nothing is harder to stop than time. Not likely to be as bursty as other potential elements, but extremely powerful none the less.

Considering the fragmented composition of a titan, I also think that Saulanna (the individual) should be given every opportunity to develop into the kind of Queen soul that leads by example rather than being overtly dependant on her nobles. This should help to develop a sense of mutual self-respect that will allow her to develop into an inherently stronger titan. It will be especially important when she eventually reaches the stage where she will be looking to grant her subject souls the added freedom of their own physical forms. The Queen needs to be able to trust her subjects just as much as they need to be able to trust her.

Overall, Saulanna may be young and Wordblood a mere fragment of what he once was, but both have great potential that needs to be given more thought after we're finished with the creation of the feeder soul. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that.
>>
No. 63612 ID: f481bc

A point on Saulanna already having an aggressive temperament. We don't need another aggressive Lord Deva.

In fact, you know what we could really use? A TRICKSY Deva. Wordblood is fairly passive, Saulanna is meant to be aggressive, so let's get a Deva in here that focuses on lateral thinking.

If we're absurdly lucky, our new Time Deva is going to be tricksy. Passive seems more likely though.

>>63602

I concede this point. This could be acceptable.

>>63608

This is true. A soul focused on stealth could just mean that we want to be unnoticed. But not left alone. We want to use that lack of notice towards, say, killing someone, acquiring information, et cetera. As long as we find a way to actively take advantage of our Stealth, we can be considered aggressive. We're seizing the day.

>>63609

Another good point. A Seeing Soul should really be next on our things to do, when we're ready for another soul. We could use more knowledge of the world. Truth is a good one. Perhaps Fate as well? Seeing Fate, what is SUPPOSED to happen, could give us considerable insight. It won't be much good against fellow Titans, but it could give us a measure of Foresight.

Deception could also be a very good one, and one prone to Tricksy, lateral thinking. And hell, people lie all the time. If we can detect the Truth through the lack of deception, that's just about as good as seeing it to begin with. And we get insight into why other people are deceiving us.

Yes, I think a Seeing soul of the element Deception could be quite useful. As long as it plays nice with Word Blood. Then again, Deception could also be useful in a social combat setting.

A Healing or Defense soul is also quite acceptable. Both are useful. It all depends on how confrontational we want to be. Our Aggressive personality is naturally disposed towards this. BUT! We do not have to always be straightforward in our aggression.

We get a Seeing soul. We, say, know that a threat is coming. We decide to run. We avoid the confrontation. It's not that we passively do nothing, we actively use our knowledge to seek more favorable ground. It's a bit on the Tricksy side, but hell, we should be encouraging our Tricky side.

Near as I can tell, we cannot go head to head with the most powerful people in this world and expect any degree of success. A straightforward confrontation will not often favor us. So we should rig the deck, make sure that circumstances are in our favor. We'll be aggressive, oh yes, but we'll make sure it's on OUR terms and no one else's.

How's that sound?

>>63610

....And this is also a very good point. Saulanna and Wordblood DO need more development. We need to make Saulanna a strong leader. You are entirely correct in this.

That said, I think we still need to consider future Deva. Saulanna and Wordblood are exceptionally powerful, very capable, but the one thing they cannot do is give us new information. Information must be gathered. In that respect, a Seeing Soul may remain high on our to-do list. If it helps us get vital intel that we are lacking, and oh are we ignorant of many, many things, we might want that Seeing Soul sooner rather than later.

For now, if we can stay safe here we might be able to accumulate enough power to satisfy everyone. It's not in line with the Aggressive temperament, but hopefully our Time Soul smooths things over.

But yeah, I'm feeling pretty vulnerable with our current lack of knowledge of incoming threats/allies. People took interest in us pretty quickly. We can't expect them to let us stay put. So we might need to get on the move, and for that, we need knowledge. A Seeing Soul can potentially let us stay ahead of the curve.

Saulanna and Wordblood are important, absolutely. But we do need more capabilities to either combat or avoid future threats. I don't think what we have alone will be quite enough. Not unless we get buttloads more Titan's Will to boost ourselves.
>>
No. 63613 ID: 70c0f2

Something along the lines of seeing / truth could have many interesting applications. There's also thematic connections to time and words. Rebirth / healing or something similar also has broad-ish scope. Themes better with Time than Words, and in a different direction, but could still work (yes, I just verbed theme).

Worth noting- just because those aren't combat specific, doesn't mean they can't be used in combat! Sight and truth is very useful in battle, especially when paired with time (prescience). And healing typical either involves some kind of manipulation of biology, or life force (depending on setting) which need not necessarily be done in a nice way. Or rebirth + time could lead to us aging opponents into younger or weaker versions of themselves (...potentially un-Exaulting people? o_o).

The tricky bit is I'm not sure what applications of these elements would necessarily be anathema to these Devas (the way it hurt Wordblood to stop Saulanna from understanding Kaan's mind control attempt). A healing deva, for instance, might not be able to do the evil white mage thing.

As you mention Deception as a possible element, I am compelled to remind you that is confirmed deva for the Dragon's Shadow. Choosing that in an attempt to hide ourselves from other titans will probably be counterproductive.
>>
No. 63614 ID: d785c7

>>63610
You've convinced me. You are correct that we need to spend time developing wordy and saulana. Some of our problems should solve themselves that way. I othink a seeing soul is still a good idea though. Defense and stealth and social we can manage ourselves, but a seeing soul would make things easier. What's more, would help us collect Titan fragments and amass power and abilities.

Truth might be good. Fate... Would likely help us find peices, plus our timesoul might want it for a noble.
>>
No. 63615 ID: f481bc

>>63613

....Ahh crap. You're right on Deception. It's a damn good Element I think, but treading on the Dragon's Shadow's toes is probably pretty unwise. At least we can appeal to nearly anyone else's better nature. We don't have that option with the Dragon's Shadow, methinks.

Also, yes, I agree that things not directly related to combat are not necessarily useless in combat. You've thrown out some good examples. I'm just thinking that when we get right down to it, we can't take most of the people who actually matter in combat if they find us. So perhaps we should focus on being able to choose our battles, or at least how they're fought, instead of a direct confrontation.

As for overall theme, I kind of favor a samara-ish approach. The world tends towards certain patterns. People change, evolve, all that sort of stuff. We as well. Whether in approach, lifestyle, culture and knowledge, one way or another, we change.

Let's focus on directing that change, personifying it. It could play into our Luna nature, that element of adaptability. Either overcome challenges, or roll with the punches. Turn weakness into strength.

We'd have to temper our Aggressive nature, just a bit, but we focus on seeing the big picture, and altering ourselves as necessary to achieve our goals.
>>
No. 63616 ID: d785c7

>>63615
A truth seeing soul should also help our objectivity.

I think I meant to say fate Wouldn't help us find pieces earlier.
>>
No. 63621 ID: cd4189

>>63616

I suspect that the only way a Seeing Soul will find pieces of Titans easier is if we design it to. Like, a soul whose purpose is finding. Or a Seeing soul meant to find the lost. Maybe Fate if Fate shenanigans have left a piece of a Titan in a particular place. MAYBE.

If our goal is finding pieces of Titans, I suspect we'll be disappointed for a while. Even if we know where they are, claiming and subduing them will likely be difficult.
>>
No. 63624 ID: b978d0

>>63614
I agree that a seeing soul should be top of the list for when we're ready to look at creating another Deva, and Truth would be an attractive element for that. Note that it may not be able to reliably reveal deception via half-truths and exemptions though.

When we're ready to consider creating another soul will depend greatly on how badly the process hurts though, as we've been warned by Wordblood with regards to that. I get the impression that it's the spiritual equivalent of ripping off your arm and granting it autonomous function. While that may be a ho-hum experience for a machine, it doesn't sound like something I'd want to repeat in rapid succession even if the benefits are clear and my survival was guaranteed.
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No. 63626 ID: a5f560

>>63621
I disagree. A truth soul, for instance, would have an intrinsic nature of seeing truth. This seemingly includes revealling things that would otherwise be hidden.

Also, I don't know how much subduing we'd have to do. Wordblood didn't precisely put up a fight.

I'd hate to see what would've happened to pick up another piece of him before us though.
>>
No. 63629 ID: 70c0f2

>>63626
Actually, it's not clear if any Titan fragments we find would be incorporated into us as complete Devas, or whether they'd be just resources for us to cannibalize.

Even if we do come across an inert Deva, I'm not sure we could incorporate it into an existing titan. The splicing process that tied Wordblood to Saulanna may not be repeatable now that she's no longer solely human, or a blank slate.

Also, I'm not sure if this is even a good idea- but more titan fragments could potentially be used to seed more new titans. Make ourselves peers. Of course, there's the moral questions of the process involved, and the question of the sense in doing so (obviously could go wrong a lot of ways).
>>
No. 63631 ID: cee89f

>>63608
> I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero.
Well in that case you want a Seeing soul, so we can see when they're coming.

1)We're beyond the domain of fate, so they're not going to be able to tell where we are through their ordinary means.

2) It's not like we can have the Stealth soul conceal us 24/7

>>63629
Peregrin told us our soul had to be 'scrubbed in order for the soul to accept the graft' which tells me Wordblood was only able to attach without difficult because we were so clean. It's likely we'd have to subdue other souls, or at least stop them from being hostile.

>>63626
I think individual Devas would also give us passive abilities related to their elements - for instance, we knew absolutely nothing when we formed, but because we had a Deva of communication, we were able to understand three different languages and more. As I said before, a Seeing soul of Truth might be able to, for instance, grant us Truesight.

>>63614
Titans are exempt from fate - it wouldn't help us find fragments.

>Devas
Personally I'm a fan of getting both a Healer soul with the Rebirth element, and a Seeing Soul with the Truth element, for reasons already discussed.

HOWEVER! We should probably hold off on that, at least for now. We don't know how painful this will be for Saulanna, and if we've already got... what was it? +20 Nightmares?

At least until we've recovered from this trauma and others, we should probably focus on bringing our own power back up.
>>
No. 63633 ID: 70c0f2

>We should probably hold off on that, at least for now.
Agreed. I think we need to spend time powering up our three existing Lords before we make any more. We have loads of unexploited potential to capitalize on before we diversify further.
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No. 63634 ID: cd4189

While the Fate Seeing soul might not be good at finding fragments, it could be pretty damn good at figuring out what those Sidereals are up to. And other Exalted. Do Death Heroes have no Fate still? Might not help them, but damn if it couldn't be useful for everyone else.

Still, it's beating down the door of the Maidens, I suspect. Maybe not enough gain, not that I see. Although man if we did get it, we might be able to out-ninja the Fate ninja when we fight by seeing what they're trying to do with Fate dickery. That would be hilarious.

Truth is probably more all around useful though. i think Deception is more informative and likely to be more Tricksy, a perspective we need, but the associations with the Dragon's Shadow is too risky. Even if it could help us get into the heads of liars and figure them out....

While we discuss possible new Devas (in the far future), perhaps we should consider a Deva of Finding? If we want a more esoteric term, scrying. That's a bit similar to Seeing though. But essentially, a Deva whose entire purpose is to the Find things for us. Perhaps with an element of Lost? Unknown? Mystery?

Seeing Soul first though, we need intel. Good LORD do we need better intel. Wordblood is very knowledgable, but he's not so informative on current events.

And for our Healing soul, while Rebirth is easily tied to us and our identity, let's consider Life. It's sharing with Gaia, but it sounds like Gaia would be pretty chill. Or perhaps Life as a Creation Deva?

.....Actually, a Deva with the purpose of Creation sounds like a pretty good one to nab in general, sooner or later. Further down the list of Devas to get, but not much further. On the flip side, there's Destruction. A Deva devoted to destroying, say, Darkness? Still, destroying is a very negative attribute. It takes and never gives. I'd be much more wary of a Destruction Deva than one of Creation.
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No. 63635 ID: 9b155d

>I just want to avoid Sidereal assassins being sent after us for obviously being a Titan and not an ordinary Moon Hero.

The current setting is so different with two different kinds of Solars, Free Infernals, the Dragon's Shadow, ect ect that I have a hard time believing the Siderals have the resources to make assassinating a Lunar with even more powers then normal holed up in a Shadowland with a somewhat experienced Death Hero a viable plan of action. Not at least without us being pressured by all the other enemies we'd make if our nature got out. If it's just the Siderals, I think we'll be able to make do. Our current location isn't really the easiest place to infiltrate in the first place.
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No. 63636 ID: 70c0f2

> we might be able to out-ninja the Fate ninja when we fight by seeing what they're trying to do with Fate dickery. That would be hilarious.
Why not out-ninja the fate dickery with time dickery? We don't need a new deva for that, and as a Titan we're above fate; Wordblood said as much.
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No. 63637 ID: cd4189

>>63636

We are above Fate, but the Sidereals use Fate to fight. And just about everything else, if I understand them correctly. So by 'seeing' Fate we can neutralize or mitigate a lot of their tricks.

But it'd have to confer other benefits to us for it to be seriously worth making a Lord Seeing Soul out of it. If our Time Soul can accomplish a similar effect, great. Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.
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No. 63638 ID: bf54a8

making a deva of fate would let that deva be seen by the sidereals. since you must be OF fate to see it.
>>
No. 63639 ID: 70c0f2

I don't think we'll be allowed some degree of time based dickery once we've invested in the Deva. (And in battle time shenanigans seems like it would have a lot of overlap with in battle fate shenanigans).

>Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.
The purpose is it's role. It feeds on, produces, and manages mystic energies for us. But, it's still going to be a deva in its own right. It will be a being of time, with dominion over it, the same way Wordblood is with words. The purpose may shape or limit the way we can potentially apply that- but there will be ways we can apply that beyond the Time-Deva playing mere battery and power grid all day. If there weren't, there wouldn't be any point to choosing an interesting element for him or her to begin with.
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No. 63640 ID: 9b155d

I'd point out the versatility of power words as an example of a Deva being a lot more then it's purpose. A LOT more in the case of power words. So strongk
>>
No. 63641 ID: cee89f

>Kind of doubt it though, it's a Feeding Soul.

Wordblood is an Aide. That didn't stop him from creating Power Words.
>>
No. 63642 ID: cd4189

I stand corrected on my objections over the Feeding Soul. Well, we'll see how it turns out. Being a newborn I rather doubt it will match up to Wordblood, but we can hope.
>>
No. 63643 ID: 9b155d

>>63642
Can something literally made of Time ever be young?
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No. 63645 ID: 38cd76

>Titans are exempt from fate - it wouldn't help us find fragments.

I corrected myself in a later post, actually. That was what I intended to say to begin with.

Really, I could easily see our Time Soul taking Fate as a noble at some point. Lets not mess with it.

I also think Truth would be more useful than Deceit for Seeing. I mean, you can see truth, even if someone is hiding it, is what I get out of a Truth Seeing Soul.

It would also be very useful in combat, even if the Siderals COULD try to use fate to fight us, we'd be able to SEE through whatever trickery they were up to with it. Because we can see Truth.

Really, combining our Time Powers with Truth powers, we'd be pretty awesome no matter how you look at it.


What is Wordblood's Purpose as a deva, anyways?
>>63633
I agree with this statement.

I also find the concept of using extra titan pieces to make Saulana some peers to be interesting. Do you think our lacky would want to try that out? What was his name again? We might be able to store his knowledge away somewhere, using our titan powers, make him a titan too (but still bound by his loyalty to us) and then give it back to him.

That would probably not necessarily be wise though.

Though it would be fun.
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No. 63646 ID: cee89f

>>63643
"I am Clockwork, master of time. *shifts into a young man* For me, time moves backwards *shifts into a baby* and forwards *shifts into a young man, then into an old man* and- oh why do i bother..."

Yes. Doesn't necessarily need to STAY that way.
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No. 63647 ID: 70c0f2

>What is Wordblood's Purpose as a deva, anyways?
Aide, or adviser. Words or communication is damn near a perfect element for that. (Just think, we could have been stuck with the aid of paper clips. Or the adviser of annoying fairy noises).
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No. 63648 ID: cd4189

>It would also be very useful in combat, even if the Siderals COULD try to use fate to fight us, we'd be able to SEE through whatever trickery they were up to with it. Because we can see Truth.

Er, what? As I understand it Sidereal powers aren't about deception. They use Fate, yes, but it's more like they manipulate it. Like molding clay. So Truth probably won't help us unless the Sideral is trying to use something with deception, in which case Truth Seeing is just as valid against any type of Exalted.

Seeing and manipulating Fate, on the other hand, is us dicking around with the Sidereals. If we choose to focus on Fate, I'd bet we could blow them out of the water. We are the deciders, the Titans. We could dictate Fate, should we so choose. We'd have to overcome the Maidens first, and they'd crush us at the moment, but we'd have the potential.

Although Fate as Time's Noble Soul is not a bad idea either. Not at all.
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No. 63650 ID: 9b155d

>>63646
You're using an example of someone who can manipulate Time, not something MADE of time. I mean, what is age really? A measurement of time as it applies to something. The larger this measured amount of time is, the older something is. Something inherently having more Time by being made primarily by it seems the sort of thing that would alter that measurement. A conceptual entity linked to a concept we're used to being almost entirely static for everything may well have some odd properties to it.

>We'd have to overcome the Maidens first, and they'd crush us at the moment, but we'd have the potential.

Not sure a single Lord Deva dedicated to Fate would be enough to overcome the Maidens of Fate. The Incarnae are supposed to be on the same level as some of the most exceptional examples of Lord Devas. And there's a lot of Maidens of Fate. Also according to Exalted canon, the maidens popped up before any of the other Incarnae and none of the Primordials have any idea where they came from. One of the fan theories regarding them is that they're actual Third Circle Devas of a hiding Primordial, which makes a good deal of sense if suddenly twice as many of them showed up in this setting. So we could be dealing with an entire Titan dedicated to Fate that can hide from all the other Primordials if we went that route. And even if it's not, we'd still be pitting our one Lord Deva up against a bunch of more experienced Incarnae.
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No. 63651 ID: 38cd76

>>63648
My argument is, essentially ALL combat is about deception. Once your enemy knows what you're going to do, they have you. For the most part. Unless you have like, a perfect defense or perfect attack or something...

But when they manipulate fate, they take advantage of what was originally going to be, which is especially devastating because that would be what we would think was supposed to be too, but if we can see Truth, then we know what is changing, they can't hide it.

It wouldn't be the PERFECT application. There would be more things you could do against siderealas with fate than with truth. But truth would hardly be useless against them either, and it would be useful against most everyone else just the same.

I'm happy leaving fate up to our timesoul though.

I'm sure we'll get all sorts of awesome tricks.
>>
No. 63653 ID: cd4189

>>63650

....

Ummm....

....

Okay, I think I might have been dissuaded from a Fate Deva. That's a pretty terrifying possibility, especially if said Titan does exist and is hostile. Even if it doesn't exist, I do realize that the Maidens certainly outnumber us and working in concert, could overpower us. Not IMPOSSIBLE for us to win, but proving an impossible is like proving a negative.

....Yeah, unless we somehow get the Maidens on our side and approving of us going the Fate route, we better tread lightly here.

>>63651

Alright, I think I can see how a Truth Soul could be so great for combat, even against Sidereals. I can get behind that kind of semantics abuse. Fate would be much more effective against Sidereals, but they might be able to affect us via our Fate Deva, so maybe that's a bit risky.

IF we get a Fate Deva, and I'm suddenly much more worried about essentially barging in on the Maiden's monopoly, leaving it up to our Time Soul sounds reasonable. It could certainly dovetail well.

...Oh man, I just thought of an awesome use for Time and a Healing Rebirth. Reincarnating a person with all their memories, AND put them back in a younger body. All the experience, all the power, plus youth. That could be a wonderfully tempting carrot to offer people in order to gain support.
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No. 63655 ID: 38cd76

It occurs to me, a truth seeing soul would also be good in social situations. Probably. Or it could be dangerous, as we found out with the oath thing before... but I suspect our deva would be able to tell if someone was hiding the truth by telling the truth, as it were.

Or maybe I"m giving a truth soul too much credit. eh.

>....Yeah, unless we somehow get the Maidens on our side and approving of us going the Fate route, we better tread lightly here.

I think this is why we are advised against playing with causality much with our timesoul. We dont' want to make big enemies.

The pattern spiders, the sidereals... fate itself. Uhg.

>...Oh man, I just thought of an awesome use for Time and a Healing Rebirth. Reincarnating a person with all their memories, AND put them back in a younger body. All the experience, all the power, plus youth. That could be a wonderfully tempting carrot to offer people in order to gain support.

I support this concept. Everyone needs worshipers.

I worry that rebirth might have very limited application though. I mean, we may want to heal things WITHOUT having to recreate them from scratch.

Though, that COULD provides some nice benefits too...
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No. 63656 ID: 9b155d

Yeah, I'd rather not make enemies of the pattern spiders myself. They're pretty cool. Anytime someone inside of fate does something cool but impractical, they manipulate fate a little bit to make it even more effective then the boring practical way.(The fluff explanation of the stunt mechanics)

Once in an Infernal game, my group managed to actually piss off all the Pattern Spiders.(Long Story short; Someone went Devil-Tiger and chose freedom as a theme after finding out that their crappy pre-Exaltation life was in service to someone else's awesome fate and an attempt on the Loom was made and failed) GM made damn near every single non-extra we ran across get the 3 dice stunt bonus as a way to represent them working against us.
>>
No. 63657 ID: cd4189

>>63655

Perhaps a Life Lord soul, with Rebirth/Reincarnation as a Noble soul? I do agree that making things from scratch would be damn inconvenient at times if we had to do it all the time. Putting it under Life may alleviate that, even if we are more compatible with Rebirth given our Origins.

Also, just THINK of all the old, old Noble Souls hanging around with amazing knowledge and whatnot. What if we offer them a new life, offer to create a new Noble soul for them, and all they have to do is pledge their allegiance to us? Like a True Name oath, or straight up akuma. The former is probably more appealing.

But in any case, we could get ancient heroes on our side, rebirth them with their 'good' memories, and maybe edit out the worse parts to save them from detrimental memories like insanity. Plus, we take them away from the Dragon's Shadow.

Only problem is that this would be pricy AND antagonize the Dragon's Shadow, but DAMN this could be a great way to get loyal vassals! I don't think they keep their Exaltation, but even then we can teach them Titan Magic. We could really make a religion off of second chances.

>>63656

....Yeah, let's NOT have that happen to us.
>>
No. 63658 ID: 38cd76

>Only problem is that this would be pricy AND antagonize the Dragon's Shadow, but DAMN this could be a great way to get loyal vassals! I don't think they keep their Exaltation, but even then we can teach them Titan Magic. We could really make a religion off of second chances.

Intriguing concept. This could work especially well if we're able to work with all of these ghosts and dead people at all. I wonder if that would work.

There has to be something that keeps ghosts from coming back to life.

Though a life soul may work just as well for such a purpose...
>>
No. 63661 ID: cd4189

>>63658

Well, let's not forget that something the Dragon's Shadow is doing is keeping ghosts from reincarnating properly, IIRC. People stuck in the new Underworld don't get to leave if they want to. Again, IIRC. Personally I think the Dragon's Shadow is doing this on purpose, and harvesting lots of souls. Ghosts becomes Shades. Possibly they now belong to the Dragon's Shadow in some way? Or is this just starving Creation of new souls, weakening it by removing the amount of people who can eventually produce prayer for the gods, and make sure there are fewer candidates for Exaltations.

If I'm correct, ruining the Dragon's Shadow's racket would put a dent in his plans. We're too weak to be considered a viable opponent to the Dragon's Shadow, but we might be able to build a rep amongst the dead on offering them second chances and getting them away from the Dragon's Shadow.

We'd need to provide a new Beast Soul, and a body, but with Titanic magic I don't think those are insurmountable obstacles at all.

Hmm.....Time Feeding soul, Life Creation Soul, and a Rebirth/Reincarnation Healing Soul all working in tandem? May that's an extravagant set-up. But they are all good Devas. And working together could pull off the closest thing to a true resurrection. If Rebirth alone isn't enough. Maybe a Rebirth aligned with Creation will be sufficient on its own?

Either way, there's something worth the risk of rebelling against the Dragon's Shadow.
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No. 63662 ID: a0263a

>>63650

The theory that the Maidens are actually Devas goes hand-in-hand with my theory that the Loom of Fate is a Primordial, and that the Pattern Spiders and Maidens are Souls of if. A terrifying thought, but intriguing.
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No. 63663 ID: 5bf190

Since it's something Saulanna would know from what she's eaten... the Dragon's Shadow actually causes more souls to pass on than did before. But the ones that are left are those that are particularly stubborn to begin with.
>>
No. 63664 ID: 38cd76

Is it possibly we're unjustly maligning the dragon's shadow?
>>
No. 63665 ID: 9b155d

>>63662
The Pattern Spiders, according to Exalted canon, are explicitly creations of Autobot. I think the Loom of Fate is as well, but I could be misremembering that as I couldn't find that info in a quick look through the Yu-Shan book. Could have sworn there was something about it being created to deal with the fact that the Maidens previously had to manage everything by hand, including making physics behave somewhat consistently. Closest thing I found on said quick look was a reference that said no being knew as much about the Loom as Autobot.
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No. 63666 ID: a0263a

>>63665

I imagine there is an explanation like that in the books...and that's totally cool. But the idea of the Loom being more than that is just awesome. I'm also the type of person who believes there is totally a 6th, hidden Maiden somewhere.

I'm a setting conspiracy theorist.
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No. 63667 ID: 9b155d

>>63666
It's definitely a cool idea; just trying to keep things a bit clear about what's canon in normal Exalted for those less familiar with the setting.

And hey, in Lunar Quest there are five more maidens!
>>
No. 63672 ID: 87eb8c

>>63667
>Five more maidens
... Wait, what?

>>63664
Oh I very much doubt it. The guy's an asshole. Evil? Maybe, maybe not. But DEFINITELY an asshole.

>>63661
I'm still a big supporter of the Rebirth Lordly Deva.

>>63658
Yes. It's the fact that their body IS DEAD.

>>63650
That particular aspect of his form was impossible for him to control, and being MADE OF time doesn't seem like it'd be all that different from manipulating it. Besides, Titans are immortal, right? So the Deva would have eternal youth.... riiiiight?

I'm not saying it COULDN'T be stuck as an old man - just that I don't see any reason it couldn't be stuck in it's prime, or shift like Clockwork did... well, besides the fact that that would put a lot of strain on our author.
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No. 63674 ID: 70c0f2

>Perhaps a Life Lord soul, with Rebirth/Reincarnation as a Noble soul?
I would think Rebirth would be a more potent Lord than life. I'd prefer to see Life as the noble.

>Taking on fate
As someone who's entire knowledgebase of exalted pretty much come from Jukashi and tvtropes, I have to say I'm somewhat annoyed we're perpetually discussing the threat that players that haven't even been introduced in this setting might pose to us, and planning countermeasures against them. Especially since we have no idea how much might have changed from cannon, and we have more pressing threats.

And really- Siderals can be fought with Lunar or Titanic powers just like any other exalted if we have to- even if they are fate ninjas.

As for the maidens themselves, or the pattern spiders, or the entire forces of fate? Obviously not something we can take on now, as we're having trouble just dealing with the heros we have on our plate now. We're just a wee baby titan for now.

>Souls, reincarnation
I'm also confused as to why so many people still seem to think reincarnation is supposed to be our concern, that we're supposed to get involved in the process, or that it's a moral imperative.

People die, souls get recycled, new people get printed on the fresh soul paper. Big deal. It ain't our responsibility to make that happen or improve the process, and it's no tragedy if Saulanna eats a particular pieces of paper rather than let a person get printed on it. It's the person that's important- not what they're made of. Soul stuff is just a shell that houses a personality for a while- no more special than the meat that does the same.

The only moral problem with eating souls is you're killing off the person currently printed on that piece of soul-paper, using that spirit-meat. Not that some sap down the line in the circle of life doesn't get to use the exact same materials after they've been decomposed or recycled.
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No. 63675 ID: 87eb8c

>>63674
...
>Soul stuff is just a shell that houses a personality for a while- no more special than the meat that does the same.
>implies it's just as okay to eat a soul as it is human flesh
>implying it's okay to eat human flesh as long as you haven't killed the person

...

*backs away slowly*
>>
No. 63677 ID: 70c0f2

>>63675
Hahaha. XD Maybe I've played one too many roguelikes if I've gotten that desensitized to eating the bodies of your enemies. (Although it's somewhat difficult to find a game system where killing isn't incentivized to some extent. Abstract XP is a lot cleaner than eating your enemies, but... you're still making people into a resource that can be harvested).

More broadly, I'm just trying to make the case that consuming ghosts is no worse than murder (assuming that we still consider ghosts as people, which some people in this setting clearly do not). People seem more concerned that the stuff-that-once-made-up-a-person isn't available for reuse than with the actual ending of that person. I find that somewhat mindboggling.
>>
No. 63679 ID: 1752c2

>>63677

Personally, I tend to view death as one of the constants of the setting. Or at least so constant that it doesn't matter. People are gonna die. Hopefully not by our hand, but I highly doubt we'll be able to avoid killing anyone/anything. Death is a part of the 'cycle'. It's how Creation keeps running.

It could be potentially possible to foul up the engine that is creation by removing enough soul-stuff from circulation. That IS something worth avoiding, and we're much more likely to be able to keep the system running properly than we are avoiding killing. Killing is bad, no doubt, but let's not forget the longer view here. It's a REALLY long view, but the big players are the type to play such a long game.
>>
No. 63681 ID: b978d0

>>63674
Technically the process is more akin to merging with the souls rather than outright consumption. Merely digesting the souls as raw materials wouldn't net the (sometimes horrifying) knowledge that Saulanna has been gaining. Without Wordblood to parse the information from the new souls, it's likely that personality and memory corruption would occur as well, which would not be good for us.

The end result is that the ghosts that are being absorbed aren't exactly being killed. In fact, more of them would continue to exist when absorbed than if they had passed on due to their accumulated knowledge not simply being washed away. They still cease to exist as an independent sentient entity though.

That said, it's a moral grey area at best, and likely a darker shade of grey at that. It's only different from eating another sentient being on a technicality. Better than obliterating an offending soul completely, but probably worse than devouring the hearts blood of a creature.

I'd suggest ranking absorption of souls up there with personally carrying out executions of the more uncivil kind, and potentially as high as genocide. Possibly justifiable in extreme cases (with the two jailed souls sounding like they might qualify as sufficiently extreme), but not something you want to make a habit of.

Even a titan in it's prime would not do well to develop a reputation as an all devouring monster. And with reputations being built more on rumour than on facts, it wouldn't take much...
>>
No. 63682 ID: 70c0f2

>>63681
Oh I agree that the soul consumption isn't necessarily a good or appetizing thing for us to be doing.

It's just that the idea of somehow working ourselves into the reincarnation cycle to somehow make it okay keeps being raised. When that in no way address what's actually upsetting about what we're doing.
>>
No. 63684 ID: 38cd76

Personally, I don't find what we're doing upsetting at all.

I mean, everyone's gotta go sometime. The people we're eating are already dead. And yeah, they're still people, but all we're really doing is turning a somewhat natural process to our advantage.

And it's not like the ones we've been eating are really good people or anything. It's all the unsavory sort, that we don't really want in our ghost societies anyways.

It would be nice to have a healing soul of somekind, and if we can offer rebirth to people as an incentive to worship us and get more soul-power, all the better. I'm just not sure that rebirth as an element is the best way to go about it.

A creation soul with a life element might fulfill a more direct purpose, and we can then go and pick something else for healing. Maybe something as simple as wood. Or maybe something more wild, to fit in with our matron Gaia.
>>
No. 63685 ID: 1752c2

I think I just realized a fantastic use for Healing Deva with element of Rebirth.

Our Healing would probably require us to start from scratch. Or at least, higher functions of it will. But! When we Heal a person, we're not just closing wounds or healing sickness. We're rebuilding them. And inherent conditions, blindness and whatnot? We can get rid of those. What's more, where a normal person who grew up blind would be unable to use thei restored vision to its fullest extent, we could make them able to do so. We can reorder their mind and being. They have flaws that they can't get rid of? If they're willing to be reborn, we can rebuild them to their desire. We could slip in some suspicious things too, but if we should be honest and upfront about this. Especially if we have a Truth Seeing soul. Looks better on our part.

The big utility of a Rebirth Healing soul would be the ability to 'heal' more than the superficial. Get rid of nightmares, phobias, we can MAKE them a better person. If that's what they want.

We could, potentially, make a person their ideal self. Now there are morals grey areas here, oh yes. Is the person that comes out the same as what comes in? Debatable. If we can honestly answer, "Yes," though? Soooooo many people will flock to us.

Hell, maybe we can set ourselves up as an alternative to capital punishment. Instead of an execution, send them to us. We'll wipe the slate clean and give them a true second chance. Or we'll rebuild them as we wish/are requested. It's an interesting alternative to executions, no?

I think I'm enjoying the idea of Rebirth Healing more and more.
>>
No. 63686 ID: 1752c2

I think I just realized a fantastic use for Healing Deva with element of Rebirth.

Our Healing would probably require us to start from scratch. Or at least, higher functions of it will. But! When we Heal a person, we're not just closing wounds or healing sickness. We're rebuilding them. And inherent conditions, blindness and whatnot? We can get rid of those. What's more, where a normal person who grew up blind would be unable to use thei restored vision to its fullest extent, we could make them able to do so. We can reorder their mind and being. They have flaws that they can't get rid of? If they're willing to be reborn, we can rebuild them to their desire. We could slip in some suspicious things too, but if we should be honest and upfront about this. Especially if we have a Truth Seeing soul. Looks better on our part.

The big utility of a Rebirth Healing soul would be the ability to 'heal' more than the superficial. Get rid of nightmares, phobias, we can MAKE them a better person. If that's what they want.

We could, potentially, make a person their ideal self. Now there are morals grey areas here, oh yes. Is the person that comes out the same as what comes in? Debatable. If we can honestly answer, "Yes," though? Soooooo many people will flock to us.

Hell, maybe we can set ourselves up as an alternative to capital punishment. Instead of an execution, send them to us. We'll wipe the slate clean and give them a true second chance. Or we'll rebuild them as we wish/are requested. It's an interesting alternative to executions, no?

And hey, what about Death Heroes and Infernal Exalted? Suppose we could reincarnate them into Solars. Person's the same, Exaltation is just different. If we get a willing participant, we just may be able to do this relatively easily. Or this could be how we get our own Exalted. We use Rebirth on the Infernals/Death Heroes and turn them back into Solars, or our own Exalted.

And what do you know, we have a Death Hero very close by. Test subject? Oh the irony is delicious. Hell, maybe we could reincarnate willing people as other Titans. There are considerable possibilities, although Healing may not be entirely sufficient to achieve them.

I think I'm enjoying the idea of Rebirth Healing more and more.
>>
No. 63687 ID: b978d0

>>63684
Whether or not we or Saulanna find the process upsetting isn't nearly as important as whether others will find it to be upsetting. Others that would potentially find it to be a reason to terminate us with extreme prejudice.

Continued survival generally requires that you remain off of the Kill On Sight list of entities that are currently higher on the food chain. Right now, that's quite a lot of entities to worry about. Some of which could curb-stomp us into oblivion as an afterthought.

Given that the titans were overthrown in the past, with Wordblood being a part of one that was TORN INTO INERT FRAGMENTS, I'd say that this is a valid concern regardless of how much power is accumulated.
>>
No. 63688 ID: 9b155d

I'd definitely prefer a Life Lord Deva then a Rebirth one, especially on the Creation front. Rebirth requires people to give up what they are now. Eventually less and less people will be willing to do that and things will dwindle, which will not make the Deva happy. As a Noble Deva of Life is fine, but making it a Lord Soul is asking for trouble when it eventually starts either causing it by force or social magicking people into wanting it.

On the soul eating thing... I'd put it up there with killing someone in real life, as we don't know if there's souls and stuff or if we're permanently ending somethings existence. Maybe a bit worse as we know we are in Quest, or perhaps more equivalent as we know the person themselves gets wiped out anyway if the natural cycle follows through. But like in real life, if someone is a torturous murderous bastard or an enemy that's trying to do you undue harm on similar levels and you not only remove the threat but gain from the act? Go for it, though there may be consequences to deal with. Others might doubt whether they were as big a problem if they know you stood to gain from the act, so it's the sort of thing that needs laws to govern it in society so people don't end up doing it all the time to those who don't deserve it, but that's more a practical issue for society then a moral one. Justified as far as I'm concerned.

>... Wait, what?

Ctrl+F in the main thread and look for maidens. There's ten of them now.

>That particular aspect of his form was impossible for him to control, and being MADE OF time doesn't seem like it'd be all that different from manipulating it.

Would you think being made of Water is much different then manipulating it? Do you think Wordblood isn't much different then someone who's just really good with words? Being made from something and manipulating it are VERY different things.

> Besides, Titans are immortal, right? So the Deva would have eternal youth.... riiiiight?

>I'm not saying it COULDN'T be stuck as an old man - just that I don't see any reason it couldn't be stuck in it's prime, or shift like Clockwork did... well, besides the fact that that would put a lot of strain on our author.

I'm not saying anything about the form it takes. Something that's thousands of years old is still thousands of years old whether it has the form of a baby or something else. I'm talking about just flat out how old the thing is. I have no idea what simply being older might do, but the fact that is might never actually be young seems like something that could happen. This is what I meant by being made of something largely conceptual that for us it's function is almost entirely static for us normally. We have crap all for frame of reference.
>>
No. 63692 ID: 1752c2

>I'd definitely prefer a Life Lord Deva then a Rebirth one, especially on the Creation front. Rebirth requires people to give up what they are now. Eventually less and less people will be willing to do that and things will dwindle, which will not make the Deva happy. As a Noble Deva of Life is fine, but making it a Lord Soul is asking for trouble when it eventually starts either causing it by force or social magicking people into wanting it.

While this is very much a valid concern, I think it's worth noting that making a Life Lord Deva might be intruding on Gaia's portfolio a bit much. I suspect we'll have much less competition for the Rebirth Element.

Just something to keep in mind.

Also, if Rebirth is a Lord Deva, we might be able to do it to our own Devas. If one is no longer as desirable an Element or Purpose, Rebirth gives it a new Element/Purpose. All the knowledge, power, and experience...but new attributes.

I wouldn't mind a potential respec. Between Rebirth and Time we could probably pull it off.
>>
No. 63693 ID: 9b155d

>>63692
>Also, if Rebirth is a Lord Deva, we might be able to do it to our own Devas. If one is no longer as desirable an Element or Purpose, Rebirth gives it a new Element/Purpose. All the knowledge, power, and experience...but new attributes.

Do you want our Devas to revolt? This is the sort of the thing to encourage us thinking of them as mechanics, which I very much do not like. It's one thing to consider the mechanics when making them, it's another to think about destroying who they are to have a mechanic we want more.

>While this is very much a valid concern, I think it's worth noting that making a Life Lord Deva might be intruding on Gaia's portfolio a bit much. I suspect we'll have much less competition for the Rebirth Element.

Wordblood gave the impression that Gaia was the type to be cool with stuff like that and she's currently gone.
>>
No. 63694 ID: 1752c2

>>63693

>Do you want our Devas to revolt? This is the sort of the thing to encourage us thinking of them as mechanics, which I very much do not like. It's one thing to consider the mechanics when making them, it's another to think about destroying who they are to have a mechanic we want more.

Who said anything about forcing them? That would be rather unwise, especially when we will be at our strongest banding together. Supposing they AGREED to it, that they wished to be remade to suit another Purpose.

Granted, they might not want to. In which case, forcing them in unwise. Unless, well, they're real trouble makers and most of us want them gone because they're crippling us.

I suppose this ability could be turned on us too, if we ever lost control. So definite drawbacks.

>Wordblood gave the impression that Gaia was the type to be cool with stuff like that and she's currently gone.

Yeah, I remember that. So it's probably true, we can get away with Life. It's still something to keep in mind, should we desire a soul or domain that can't be influenced. Hell, that's one of the main reasons I'd even consider a Raccoon Deva. It's silly, but apparently similar 'Elements' have been used, and we'd have it to ourselves.
>>
No. 63695 ID: 42ace1

>>63694
When did Jukashi indicate that Elements similar to 'Raccoon' were used?
>>
No. 63696 ID: 1752c2

>>63695

Might not have been Jukashi, but I remember the Isidoros has been mentioned as an example of a Titan defined by being a Boar. It's a decent point.
>>
No. 63697 ID: d785c7

>>63696
That doesn't mean that "board" is an element of his though, any more than wordbloods element is "dragons", yet he is draconic in form. Thigh he did use to have BLOOD as an element, which I find intriguing.
>>
No. 63698 ID: 70c0f2

>>63696
The boar-primordial was brought up by a suggester, we don't know if it exists in this setting, and there was some debate as to whether it actually had 'boar' as an element, or if that's just how the amalgamation of his parts came together (like the Dragon's Shadow. He doesn't have Dragon in any of his elements, or Rebellion either, but those are the shape we perceive him in, and the theme we define him by).

So no, it's not that great a defense for a Raccoon elemental.
>>
No. 63700 ID: cee89f

>>63688
>Just talking about how old the thing is
...Then why bring it up AT ALL? the thing is going to be exaactly as old as it is. We make it at second zero, it's gonna be 3 seconds old at second three.

Would you think being made of Water is much different then manipulating it? Do you think Wordblood isn't much different then someone who's just really good with words? Being made from something and manipulating it are VERY different things.

Time is different from water - it doesn't have a physical manifestation.

And no. I DON'T see any significant difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use communication as a weapon. Sure, he uses it very well, but that's not the point.

>We have crap all for frame of reference.

Really.
Because the way i read it, you brought up 'he would be old if he was made of time' as a definite FACT. Not theory. FACT.

>Can something literally made of Time ever be young?

Maybe I'm putting too much sarcasm into it, but there >.>
>>
No. 63702 ID: 9b155d

>Because the way i read it, you brought up 'he would be old if he was made of time' as a definite FACT. Not theory. FACT.

Did you miss the question mark?

>...Then why bring it up AT ALL?
Because I find the implications of physical entities made up of something that is conceptual in nature but a concept whose effect we can measure but not the actual concept itself interesting?

>We make it at second zero, it's gonna be 3 seconds old at second three.

Those are measurements of Time being applied to a being made of Time.

>Time is different from water - it doesn't have a physical manifestation.

In quest it will very soon. But the point is more that they behave very differently. The same way a being made of water cannot be dry a being made of time may not be able to be described as young, as that's a descriptor for something based on a lower then what you consider average measurement of time.

>And no. I DON'T see any significant difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use communication as a weapon. Sure, he uses it very well, but that's not the point.

... Not even sure what to say to this. Being made of something is a lot different then manipulating it.

>>63696
That was me, and I think it's more likely his Devas all are in line with the qualities Boars usually represent. Only reason I think he might have a boar as an element is that he just so happens to have a minimum of 19 Third Circle Souls iirc. That's a lot of elements to fill.
>>
No. 63703 ID: fb9917

I just want to point out that we don't necessarily have to create a healing soul to do healing. Between Lunar powers and Sorcery and Artifacts we could do a whole lot of things to help people. Same thing with combat, really. The reason I suggested a Stealth soul is because hiding our Titan-ness doesn't really fall under any of those. Also we should totally learn Sorcery it rules.
>>
No. 63704 ID: cee89f

>>63702
>Question mark
Have you never heard a question phrased in a manner that it implies a statement instead?

>Because I find the implications of physical entities made up of something that is conceptual in nature but a concept whose effect we can measure but not the actual concept itself interesting?

>In quest it will very soon. But the point is more that they behave very differently. The same way a being made of water cannot be dry a being made of time may not be able to be described as young, as that's a descriptor for something based on a lower then what you consider average measurement of time.

That's two different things. In order for your idea to work, a Water elemental would never be able to decrease the amount of water it's releasing or made up of. Being dry is the opposite of being wet. The opposite of being Time is being OUTSIDE of time. By that idea, it could never leave the constraints of time...

...Except that Wordblood has demonstrated that it IS possible to do the opposite of your domain if needed (in his case, render language utterly incomprehensible), it's just really painful


>Those are measurements of Time being applied to a being made of Time.

You're trying to describe it as 'old'. That's a measurement, too.

>... Not even sure what to say to this. Being made of something is a lot different then manipulating it.

Not for a Deva. They can manipulate their elements because they are made of them.

But the problem I have is that you're assigning the guy who can use communication as a weapon a power level that suggests he's just a smooth talker, and then comparing him to the guy who can tell the laws of physics to shut the hell up AND THEY WILL LISTEN TO HIM.

All other things equal, what would be the difference between Wordblood and a guy who can use Communication the same way he can? As far as I can tell, the main difference would be that we could read Wordblood's thoughts on his body.

I get what you're saying - the problem is that concepts like Time and Communication aren't physical things. The latter refers to how well two people can understand each other when they talk or act, and the former is a measure of entropy. If a Time Deva's age was fixed at all (something i find highly unlikely) why would it be stuck on an old man?

...Come to think of it, from the way you described young, if it were fixed (again, unlikely) wouldn't he just look the same age as whoever's looking at him?

Also:
>In quest it will very soon.
If Time was going to get a physical manifestation in the world because we made a Time Deva, then it would've already gotten one. We're not the first Titan to make a Time Deva.
>>
No. 63706 ID: 9b155d

>If Time was going to get a physical manifestation in the world because we made a Time Deva, then it would've already gotten one. We're not the first Titan to make a Time Deva.

The Time Deva IS the physical manifestation of Time I was referencing. Also, everything in Exalted can sort of have a physical representation. That's sort of how First Age Magitech worked. They went out into the Wyld and got bits of non-physical things to make physical things out of. As Jukashi described it, this is a setting where the Void, an utter absence of things is something you can shoot at someone.

>But the problem I have is that you're assigning the guy who can use communication as a weapon a power level that suggests he's just a smooth talker, and then comparing him to the guy who can tell the laws of physics to shut the hell up AND THEY WILL LISTEN TO HIM.

No I'm not. I'm trying to say you're being very limited in what you're saying Wordblood is. Power words are not the extent of what he can do, nor are a lot of his other powers. Back to the being made of water thing, in classic fantasy setting imagine the difference between, say, some who can sue water magic and a water elemental. Yes, they can both do things with water, but the thing made of Water has a whole host of other properties the guy just manipulating it doesn't, just as the guy not made of water has a whole host of properties the water elemental doesn't. For instance let's take a guy who could use Word Magic. Would he be directly empowered by great works of literature or hurt from the act of depriving words of meaning? Not likely. And these are just what we've noticed in two days in quest. I feel you're not giving enough weight to just how different being made of something is to manipulating it.


>I get what you're saying - the problem is that concepts like Time and Communication aren't physical things. The latter refers to how well two people can understand each other when they talk or act, and the former is a measure of entropy. If a Time Deva's age was fixed at all (something i find highly unlikely) why would it be stuck on an old man?

I never once said anything about being an old man or being stuck at the same age, only not being young. I simply find it perhaps a bit questionable that a Lord Soul of Time dedicated to Feeding would be what one would consider a small measurement of Time. By it's nature it should be Very Timey and constantly becoming moreso.

>...Come to think of it, from the way you described young, if it were fixed (again, unlikely) wouldn't he just look the same age as whoever's looking at him?

Why are you focused on looks. A shapeshifter taking the form of a baby isn't young if they've lived thousands of years old. Also don't understand why anything I've said would imply the Deva would look the age of anyone who observes it.
>>
No. 63712 ID: cee89f

...I typed up a massive reply, then realized I was pissed off for no good reason again. Think i'm gonna stop there before it gets REALLY out of hand. >.>
>>
No. 63713 ID: f2c20c

Can we get a new questdis before this one reaches 2000 posts?
>>
No. 63716 ID: 38cd76

>>63712
Yeah, I was going to say, I think you guys are talking past eachother and just getting pissed off now. Might need to take a breather.

I dn't think I buy the argument that the new Deva wont be young, simply because it's made out of time. It doesn't seem to necessarily follow. I could easily see isn't affected much by his young-ness, but really... we'll have to see how things work out.

We've never done this before, after all.
>>
No. 63717 ID: 1752c2

Ugh, feeling like brainstorming possibilities again. Might not be practical, but it's fun.

A Void element? Better choose a Purpose inclined towards Restraint, and make sure this guy can't kill US.

Element of Chaos, with the Purpose of Control? Maybe Guidance? Contradictory, but potentially powerful/useful.

Element of Negation, Purpose of Judgement? Deciding what is and what is not? Definitely heavy elements of Order though. Judgement is a good one if we wanna get in on Order though, it fits us as Titans very well. It's a good Noble, if nothing else.
>>
No. 63719 ID: 38cd76

Mentioning judgement...

I was thinking a Law element might be fun. Put us in direct opposition to the Dragon's Shadow.

I dont think that it's necessarily putting us into opposition with Luna and our Beastial nature either. Even Nature and the Wilderness has its laws.

Even the wyld has laws, after a fashion, in that lack of law is a law. If that makes sense.

Law would work well with wordblood too.

And in a way, the inscribing that's done to all lunars is an element of law.

It could be a fun element to work with.


For that matter, something to do with numbers, or math might also be good. We have words already. Why not math?

Law and math are somewhat related too, but only tenuously...
>>
No. 63720 ID: ab3218

law sucks

fuck da police
>>
No. 63722 ID: cee89f

Anyway. Different topic.

Perhaps we could style ourselves as the Masked One, Seer of Truth, Redeemer of the lost and Keeper of Secrets? Or any combination of those? In that vein, we could invest in our current themes, as well as Knowledge, Truth, Secrets, Rebirth and other such things.

Also:

If somebody hears Saulanna screaming and investigates (by which i mean shows up later to ask about it) I nominate this as our immediate response:

"I LIKE IT ROUGH, YA GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT, ICEHEAD/YA BITCH/BLOODFACE?!" (for Askalaff, Garmir and Akatrina, respectively)

...Yeah, i dunno where Icehead came from either >.>
>>
No. 63723 ID: b978d0

>>63719
Law I could see as being a combination of Judgement and a portion of Wordbloods domain. Laws mostly being recorded judgements that are agreed upon by society.

The law of the jungle is more akin to the laws of physics, being patterns that have been identified through observation rather than the result of a judgement that's been put forth. While they're not immutable, they also don't exist because someone said so but instead because that's just the way things are. Then again, that distinction may not hold true in creations case where the god of a river may just decide that the water that flows through it will indeed go uphill.

Either way, Law sounds like something that would overlap Wordbloods domain, especially considering the Words of Power ability.

Math I would say would be more of a noble that would fit in Wordbloods house. Numbers and math just being words and terminology used for quantification.

Judgement would probably make for a very strong offensive Diva, but I'd be wary of it edging out Saulanna for the Queen position. Plus we are effectively fulfilling the role of Saulanna's personal judgement here, so it could potentially horn in on our influence...
>>
No. 63724 ID: 38cd76
 

"I fought the law and the law won"


Though I do like the element of secrets. I'm not sure why. Maybe some sort of Library Purpose... like... for storing information for us, so that we don't have to remember everything. Give it an element of secrets.

Hm... or could use various other things.
>>
No. 63725 ID: fb9917

Does Sorcery work as a Purpose? And if it does, what sort of element would you want for something like that?

Also 'the Masked One' reminds me that Raccoons have Masks and so Masks might be a particularly fitting Element for a soul. If we created a stealth soul around that we could more easily wear the 'mask' of a Moon Hero.
>>
No. 63726 ID: 38cd76

I like that. Maybe a Keeper Purpose with Secrets element, to store knowledge of stuff and remind us of things we've forgtten.

Mask element for a stealth purpose is the first time I've ever actually liked the idea of a stealth deva. I like masks as an element for us though. That could be pretty sweet, and amazingly flexible.

Still not really feeling judgement... I'm having a hard time seeing it as either a purpose or an element. It's sort of... making decisions. Not a big fan of that concept in motion.

I do agree that Math and Law we should probably just let wordblood play around with though. That's a good idea.

I wanted to have more sciencey stuff to do too, but maybe with a good Info Keeper of like... secrets, or mysteries, or forgotten things, it could work.
>>
No. 63727 ID: 70c0f2

Mask... is actually one of the most attractive element ideas we've got right now. There are a lot of interesting, metaphorical ways we could apply or interpret that, and it has an appealing connection to our theme without the banal simplicity of Raccoon.

I agree that Math and Law, while interesting, sound like subordinates of Words. (I'd imagine a law noble could contribute to give quite a bit more kick to our power words- make them stick more, make them more absolute). Although maybe Math could work as subsoul for Time? Math certainly has a connection there, and would certainly be useful for power management / bookkeeping.

>Does Sorcery work as a Purpose?
It should. Pretty sure Wordblood said we could set something up to teach us sorcery (perhaps without the usual school restrictions, even) back in chapter one. Waaay before we got into the actual mechanics of Devas and elements and purposes though.
>>
No. 63728 ID: 38cd76

I would like to contribute, that if we want a Sorcery Deva we should just Coopt Peregrin's soul. That might be fun.
>>
No. 63729 ID: cee89f

>>63727
Wordblood also said Power Words would work just as well as sorcery, and from the looks of it, would be much simpler.

>>63726
Somebody should start a list.

...

And by that i mean, 'could somebody link me the wiki page from earlier again so i can start a list'

>>63725
Perhaps Magic itself? Or that could be our Mask soul... though personally i'd like to see that one as our Stealth soul. It'd be like assassin's creed: we hide in plain sight. Let our mannerisms and actions mask us so we become one with the scenery instead of outright hiding in dark corners.

>>63724
If we do make the Library one, I'd propose Knowledge for it's element. For obvious reasons.

... Actually, a Mask deva of Secrets could be exactly what we need here - we don't want Luna or the Moon Heroes as our enemies, mostly because we like Luna.

We could Mask our tattoos as something that both works AND make it so they don't show we're a Titan.

...

Could we make SAULANNA a Deva like that? I seem to recall something along those lines being discussed by Wordblood earlier...
>>
No. 63731 ID: 70c0f2

>could somebody link me the wiki page from earlier again so i can start a list
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest

Go wild. We probably don't need lists of pros and cons either- since that's based on incomplete guesses or assumptions. All we really need is a list of ideas for when it next becomes relevant.
>>
No. 63732 ID: 38cd76

http://tgchan.org/wiki/Lunar_Quest it wasn't this wiki was it?


Only problem I have with Knowledge being an element for something is that I think Wordblood wanted it for a noble, and i'd rather let him keep it. He's our buddy!

I hadn't thought that Mask could also be a purpose... that's a good point. I think I might prefer it as an element though. We could probably still use it to make everyone think we got the tattoos, in any case.
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No. 63733 ID: 70c0f2

>>63732
That's the main wiki, yes, but I think we're supposed to put facts there. We were using the talk page to track ideas.

I suppose mask could be swung as a purpose or an element. But as a purpose, it's a lot narrower an idea. To mask is much more specific an direct than the metaphorical concept of mask-ness. And less interesting, in my opinion.
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No. 63734 ID: cee89f

>>63731
Okay, thanks. Pros and Cons made the lists a pain in the ass to keep track of anyway.

I'll start the list from the point where we ended the long discussion of god-knows-what... here >>63712

Mostly because I'm lazy. =p
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No. 63735 ID: 38cd76

>>63733
I concur. You're one smart Anonymous!
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No. 63736 ID: fb9917

>>63729
Power Words are definitely superior to Sorcery in combat, or when we need something NOW, but Sorcery does a few things nothing else really does unless we decide to create a soul to do it. And given how painful the process is, we really should limit how often we do that. No other magic lets us call up elementals or demons and bind them to service, for example. Although binding Second or Third circle demons might be something Wordblood objects to, I doubt he would particularly care about us calling up demons of the First circle. And Gaia doesn't really care that much if you call up some elementals either. Magic as an element or purpose is MUCH broader than Sorcery, since Magic is basically...everything. I'm not even sure if Magic would qualify as a valid element given how broad it is? Sorcery is a specific way of using magic, as is Necromancy. It's different from most types of magic used by Exalts or Gods or spirits of various types.

I think a Stealth soul with the element of Masks could definitely let us get tattoos and still hide what we are, or even potentially change what the tattoos say to whatever we want, depending on how powerful the soul was. We don't really need to go more narrow than that to accomplish it.
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No. 63738 ID: cd4189

Hmm....Element Magic, Purpose Growth? We'd get some crazy magic fast, I should think. But Seeing Soul first before Magic, unless we think the magic will outweigh the intel. Honestly, I'd prefer intel.

Also, something we need to get right on once we have our Time Soul. We're essentially a world unto ourselves, and Titans can already stretch time quite a bit. It's how Wordblood conversed with us mid-conversation, I suspect. With a Time Deva, we can crank this up to absurd levels I think. We might be able to make our reflexes and ability to plan mid-fight absolutely insane.

Screwing with Time and causality brings enemies. But I think there's a good chance that we can manipulate Time with relative impunity so long as all the effects are restricted to our inner self.

Like...our new Time Feeding Deva consumes and strips down memories of a new soul near instantly, because of time manipulation, and we assimilate very quickly. Stuff like that.
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No. 63741 ID: cee89f

Anyone want to add anything to the discussion page while I'm waiting for my account to be approved? =p
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No. 63743 ID: 63f851

So hey everyone, while we're plotting the future, what are we going to do immediately after the feeding soul is created? We're gonna consume the slaver ghosts, which will give us TW to work with, and then we're gonna probably end up in social combat again really soon. I say that we should try and figure out how to boost Wordblood so that we can kick some ass in social combat. There's this post >>/quest/409525 but there might be others I missed.

...BTW, are we gonna have another discussion thread soon? I'd like to know how that works on this website. These chan boards are kinda weird.
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No. 63744 ID: cd4189

I thought we were pretty much draining ourselves of Titan's Will just to make this Feeding Soul? Well, if we have any projections on our resources after making the Feeding Soul, let's tally our assets.

Honestly, I'm hoping our new Feeding Soul will be able to aid us in some way.
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No. 63745 ID: 70c0f2

>>63735
=D

>what are we going to do immediately after the feeding soul is created?
Well, first we abuse our inner kingdom time thing to do mandatory getting to know the new npc things.

Then we test it out consuming those two souls. What do we spend the TW on? Some suggestions:

*Reverse the Soul force downgrade Saulanna had to endure to create the Time Deva.
*Possibly upgrade Saulanna's and/or Wordblood's soul force further, if we can afford it. (I'd love to get Wordblood far enough along that he develops his own pool of Word Points, so we don't have to fuel him with Moon Points. He did hint that could happen once he's strong enough).
*Upgrade Wordblood in some way to be more useful in the next social battle (we should brainstorm possible passive or active powers, and/or see if he has any suggests). Possibly more than once- he has some serious untapped potential.
*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on.
*Increase beauty.
*Possibly make some kind of time power? Although, I suspect we won't be able to immediately.
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No. 63746 ID: 9b155d

>>63745
>*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on.

That's part of the process of making it. Or at least, part of the process Wordblood suggested for making it. He actually listed out how much each portion of the process would cost in Titan's Will. Also, it was Ease and Efficiency.
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No. 63748 ID: 63f851

>>63745
"*Can we transfer the efficiency and rate of consumption upgrades from Wordblood to the Time deva? He or she is going to be the one consuming souls from now on."
>>/quest/409526
That's gonna cost us one TW, but we're already committed to spending as much. Note that we've already upgraded to Soul Force 3, so it's only going to cost us 4 TW to do the whole shebang. And pain, don't forget the pain. Really would help to have some way to reduce the pain.
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No. 63749 ID: 70acd0

>>63736
Power Words are only currently able to be used one at a time (with only STOP in our available right now), but why wouldn't it be possible to upgrade this to be able to string multiple words together, add modifiers, etc?
It's already an ability that is practically unknown to others, making it a potent wild card to be able to pull out. Why branch out into a field that many others know how to deal with when we can instead further develop the one we have?

>>63738
Element: Magic + Purpose: Growth
That would likely end up stepping on the toes of Luna, while also being a bit of an unstable combination. Kind of the magical equivalent of Chernobyl waiting to happen. I generally think of magic as being inherently unstable though, so may be over-estimating how unstable it would actually be.

A stealth soul of masks also sounds quite appealing, though I do wonder if it might work better as a social soul. The stealth trick of masking our presence would still be possible ("nah, that's not who we're looking for"), but would also open up other uses.
Combat situation? Put on the scary mask.
Accused of horrific crimes? Put on the innocent mask.
Need something from someone? Time for the raccoon kit eyes.
Would potentially also assist with the manifestation of other souls by wearing them as a mask externally.
The biggest problem with this would be avoiding the development of a multiple personality disorder. Would also need to be careful of Saulanna loosing herself to the roles. Developing Saulanna's will and helping her to find a good motivation would greatly offset those risks though.
Overall, the element of masks is just too much of a romantic concept to pass up.

>>63745
Sounds like a reasonable plan of action to me.
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No. 63750 ID: cd4189

>>63749

For Magic and Growth....well, yeah, it could go bad. We might need the power soon though.

As for Masks, I admit, it's an interesting idea. Although we could substitute Masks for the broader Artifice. Or use Artifice as a Purpose? Artifice seems more like an Element, honestly.

I will admit that Masks has an acceptable amount of versatility. I could go for them. After other, more important souls. Er....damn it, is Wordblood Communication? I can't recall. Masks with purpose of Communication is a decent one. But if we can swing Artifice as a purpose, Masks being how we use devices to communicate or effect the world around us, that could be nice.

Oh yeah, and on Judgement? Maybe we should make it a Noble Soul for Saulanna, to cement her position as Queen. Make her judgements and edicts absolute, especially to the other Devas.
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No. 63752 ID: fb9917

>>58813
But with a stealth soul we could totally get away with eating a God or elemental! Just hide the telltale signs of eating by masking them with any one of the dozens of spirit-murdering powers.

>>63749
Wordblood already does a pretty good job at the social combat thing, we are just outmatched by Akatrina because she has had more than like...one day to practice this. And if we do make a dedicated social combat deva, we have to be really careful that we don't make one who will fight Saulanna for control.

Also usually the way you deal with Sorcery is with more Sorcery.
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No. 63753 ID: 70acd0

>>63750
I'd rate improving finesse type abilities higher than rapidly gaining raw magical power. Less likely to make enemies we can't afford that way.

I think Artifice might be a bit too removed from the more animalistic nature of our Lunar hero soul. This would also bring to the forefront at least one of the competencies that did not sit well with Saulanna. +20 Nightmares is enough for now.

Element: Mask + Purpose: Social (or something similar) would possibly allow for using masks for remote comms. Sort of an advanced ventriloquism act. Regardless of how that ability would be pulled off though it would be pretty creepy...

Judgement as a noble soul for Saulanna sounds like it could work well, though possibly a little draconian (and not in the "dragons are cool" manner).
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No. 63755 ID: cee89f

>>63753
Wordblood can already be used as a Social Deva, we don't need two. Personally I'd suggest Secrets or Stealth as purposes for a Mask element, maybe even an Attack deva. (Warfare is mostly deception after all)
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No. 63756 ID: 38cd76

Artifice might work well, Luna is a trickster god after all. But better than artifice is ingenuity, which also suits our personality and talents.

Artifice is a little too close to deception for my taste, which is the domain of the Dragon's Shadow.

I add my weight to the opinion that we don't need another Social Deva, Wordblood has been pretty kind to us so far. We should just have a Secrets or Stealth Deva of Masks. I like the idea of a Secrets purpose deva, though Secrets would also be an interesting element for something.
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No. 63759 ID: cd4189

All points taken on Artifice. Still something to keep on our radar.

Perhaps an Element of Secrets, with a Purpose of Finding/Discovery? If someone wants to hide something, we'll get insight in ferreting it out.

Ingenuity is also pretty good. I could role with that. If not a Lord, a Noble is good.
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No. 63760 ID: 38cd76

Maybe we'll just make ingenuity one of our nobles. We could do the same with masks too, but that might take a while.


As far as secrets go... an element of secrets, with a purpose of finding... that seems like it would be trying to find things by using secrets, which seems odd to me.
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No. 63761 ID: 70acd0

Good point regarding Wordblood already filling our immediate need for a social Diva.

The idea of a Mask element Diva with the purpose of Secrets has given me the mental image of "Super Magical Raccoon Theif Saulanna" though. Not sure if that's awesome, over the top, or both...
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No. 63767 ID: 38cd76

Well, we WERE a Thief/Treasure Hunter before we exalted.

Make of that what you will.

:D
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No. 63777 ID: b978d0

Well, just realized that Saulanna already has dominion over maskdom (at least in part) as per her Mask Sneak ability. So that would put a bit of a damper on creating a Mask element Diva I think, especially given that that ability is part of her Lunar powers. Don't really understand enough right now to risk messing with her exaltation.
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No. 63778 ID: 70c0f2

>>63777
I wouldn't think that would be a problem. For instance, we already had access to some degree of time distortion (we paused in the middle of the social battle to retreat to our inner world to consider option and consult with Wordblood) but that didn't restrict us from making a time Deva.

We would be hard pressed to come up with elements that don't in some way overlap with some part of our Lunar powers, as we advance, anyways.
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No. 63779 ID: cee89f

>>63777
>>63778
As i understand it, Titans already have control over every aspect of reality, if we focus enough of our power. Devas make our control... easier, stronger, more defined, more absolute, however you wanna put it. Heck, the fact we have a Raccoon Lunar Exaltation might just make the Mask Deva stronger.

As an example Titan with enough power could probably do that mental suggestion thing Wordblood was talking about without a communication Deva - it would just be much more difficult.
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No. 63780 ID: b978d0

>>63778
>>63779
Good points. Overlap is inevitable with the breadth of possibilities covered by the Lunar exaltation. If the nature of the overlap is positive reinforcement, then that probably would be for the better.
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No. 63789 ID: 38cd76

Honestly, a Deva of Masks just sounds really freakin' cool.

I was thinking, and we should probably save all of Wordblood's former devas for him to make nobles out of, unless we feel a pressing desire. But Masks... that sounds pretty cool.

What would a deva with like... a purpose of being a repository for knowledge and/or resources be properly called? Or is the feeder for storing away as well as managing? In which case, do we need a seperate one for bits of knowledge and such, or should we just manage au natural?

I think I like the idea. The seeing soul and wordblood could interface with it directly, and just keep us informed of things really important. We could really make a pretty efficient system.

It'd be like the RAM for our CPU. (We're the CPU.)

Potential elements: Memory (of course), Secrets, Fate (benefits with few drawbacks, in a this sort of deva.), Elsewhere, Music (why not? It could sing you a story!), hm... what else...
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No. 63790 ID: 1752c2

Or we could just make a Deva of Masks be one of Saulanna's Noble Souls. We want these traits to apply to Saulanna, yes? I'm not sure how well Masks will tie in to our overall theme. It boosts Saulanna nicely, yes. It dovetails very well with her shapeshiftering, her ability to take on different roles as the situation demands.

I'm just not sure we want it to be a Lord Deva, the foundation of our existence. Part of being defined by Masks is wearing them. We might ALWAYS end up wearing a Mask. That's...not as desirable. It doesn't leave out being truthful, but it means we'll never act naturally. We'll always be playing a role, a part. It's artifice and while the artist puts more of themselves in their work than they think, it means our true self is only glimpsed through the Mask.

If we go Mask route, people will not be inclined to trust us as much. Sure, the Element of Truth encourages honesty and Masks means selectively using that honesty, but it's a minor conflict in our nature. We sure we want that as part of our fundamental nature?

A Noble Soul of Masks to Saulanna seems safer. Augments HER nature, but not our overall nature. We wear the Mask, but we are not the Mask. We can still take it off, if we choose to.
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No. 63796 ID: 38cd76

Eh, no matter how honest a person says they are, everyone always wears masks anyways. It's part of our nature as social and cultural beings. That would potentially make the Masks deva particularly influential. I don't see how it would cause people to distrust us, any more than they already distrust one another.

Plus, wordblood said we probably wont be getting nobles for a while.
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No. 63814 ID: cee89f

.... soooooo apparently it takes a while to get an account for the wiki. Gonna be a while for that list, guys. Anyone else wanna do it instead?
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No. 63815 ID: cd4189

Our Lord Souls are the foundations of our very being. Do we really want to define ourselves by utilizing Masks? People wearing a Mask might be very common, but if we go Lord Deva, we'll never STOP wearing a Mask. It'll be a fundamental part of our being.

People will definitely distrust us more, because normally it'd be believed that we can be sincere and honest, or very close to it. With a Mask? No, we'll always be playing a part and everyone will be suspicious of our agenda. An element of deception will be tied into our very fundamental nature.

If we go Noble Soul, our Mask is subordinate to a Lord. It's a big aspect of us, but it doesn't DEFINE us. Not to the same extent as a Lord. I'm more comfortable with this option. Plus, can't say I very much like the themes Mask offers. Just not how I'd like Saulanna to develop. I guess it just doesn't feel Primordial enough to me.
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No. 63816 ID: 70c0f2

>>63814
I'd suggest just making a request in the wiki thread, unless you want to wait a week or more.

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/meep/res/364.html

>Mask, Lord or Noble
I don't really think we know enough about the functional distinction between a Lord Deva and Saulanna noble Deva to discuss the pros and cons of sticking a particular element in either location. I also wouldn't presume too much in detail about the exact weakness or advantages or a particular element until we run it past Wordblood.
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No. 63818 ID: cd4189

>I don't really think we know enough about the functional distinction between a Lord Deva and Saulanna noble Deva to discuss the pros and cons of sticking a particular element in either location. I also wouldn't presume too much in detail about the exact weakness or advantages or a particular element until we run it past Wordblood.

While true, even asking Wordblood about elements doesn't have him speculating as to the impact on our personality. Just the practical benefits. So at very least personality speculation is valid.
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No. 63837 ID: cee89f

Okay, List is there now.

http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest

Putting it in alphabetical order took longer than it should have. Any others anyone would like me to add?
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No. 63841 ID: 70c0f2

>>63837
Maybe you should denote which ones we thought might work better as a Noble, rather than a Lord?
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No. 63849 ID: cee89f

>>63841
That's just wild speculation until we understand the difference between Noble and Lord devas a bit better.
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No. 63850 ID: 70c0f2

In the case of masks, sure. But we had several elements that we felt worked better as nobles for Wordblood than separate Lords, because they might otherwise edge too close to his domain (knowledge, law, math).
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No. 63851 ID: b260d1

I'm thinking a Lord Deva with an element of 'Reproduction' and a purpose of 'Dongchampion' would be pretty sweet. Think of the possibilities.
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No. 63854 ID: cee89f

>>63851
........... Oh right, i forgot, this is tgchan -_-

>>63850
No, it's ALL wild speculation. Deva applies to all circles of souls anyway, so that list can go for Nobles or Lords or even Commoners (assuming those guys have elements too)

Also i'm lazy and don't wanna dig through all of this again =p
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No. 63855 ID: cd4189

Actually, Reproduction could be a potential Noble or Commoner Element to a Deva of Life with the Purpose of Creation. Lunars can reproduce to make Beastmen, yes? Imagine how insane the children we spawn could be if we go in that direction. Do it as a man for lots at once, woman for more personal touches, and use Time to speed up the process.

It's an interesting line of thought. Not one I'm in any hurry to pursue, but it DOES dovetail into pre-existing aspects of the Quest.
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No. 63864 ID: cee89f

... darnnit, I'm still thinking about the Masked Heroes idea. Rebirth Deva's associated caste would be the Phoenix Caste. We could also name each particular caste as 'Lord' for shorthand and establish a theme of mythological creatures and concepts for the caste names. Time Lord (caste?), Phoenix Lord (caste?)

A thought which is doubly annoying, because I don't know for sure if we'll actually MAKE a rebirth deva >.>

>>63855
Saulanna won't accept sexual commands unless her arousal is high enough, which tells me this plan would be short-lived if it worked at all.

... I think I should shut up for a while >.>
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No. 63870 ID: cd4189

>>63864

I don't really like the Masked Heroes idea, truth be told. If we got Exalted, I do like the idea of our Exalted being reborn, like we were. It's an interesting idea. Maybe we can make an alternate Lunar caste. The Solars are already divided enough.

But styling ourselves so that we represent Masked Heroes? I just don't like it. We're a Primordial, a world creator. We are not the police, internal security. We have people for that. Or we SHOULD. Everyone else has people if we don't.

I just don't like us being styled as a hero. I don't like it as a fundamental of our existence, because we will be defined by Heroism. Nice and dramatic, but what about when we're not in active conflict?

Heroics does not make for a good Titan, I believe. I prefer something more primordial. We're the underpinnings of the world, we are not 'people' ourselves. We're more than that. Let's not style ourselves after single, relatively solitary heroes who only appear during trouble. Let's just BE. Less mortal antics, more immortal eldritch being.

As for her not accepting sexual commands? Well, if she's partly defined by Reproduction, I think we'll suddenly find her more pliable.
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No. 63874 ID: cee89f

>>63870
It's just a name. =p 'Masked Heroes' has a nice ring to it, and it stems both from the fact that the Hero is reborn so even THEY don't know who they originally were, and because of the little black mask saulanna has that I was hoping would pass on to her exalts.

You don't have to be heroic to be Exalted.

After all... If i remember correctly, Green Sun Princes (Hell Heroes) get power from being sufficiently evil to be considered "a B-grade movie villain." Hardly heroic.

>Let's not style ourselves after single, relatively solitary heroes who only appear during trouble. Let's just BE. Less mortal antics, more immortal eldritch being.

Defining our exalts and defining Saulanna as a Titan are two completely different things. When I think 'Gaia' I do not think 'Warrior who uses the elements as part of her fighting style' i think 'mother of all life'. When I think Luna, I don't think 'chaotic being defined largely by it's attachment to another and a connection to chaos and the moon phases' I think 'GODDESS OF THE MOON'... When I think 'Unconquered Sun', I don't think 'Paladin-Sage-Priest powered by virtue', I think-... Okay, maybe that's a bad example.

My point is that we can have Exalts without being defined by them. Even if we were, we've got enough gods and titans who are too self-absorbed to care about the rest of the universe anyway. Let's try and actually GIVE A FLYING FUCK

>As for her not accepting sexual commands? Well, if she's partly defined by Reproduction, I think we'll suddenly find her more pliable.

Putting aside the VERY creepy undertones of that argument, how would we get her to agree to that?

"Hi Saulanna, wanna have a soul of reproduction?"
"...Why?"
"So you can be a baby-making machine for a war engine, thus allowing us copious opportunities for fanservice?"
"Go to Malfeas."
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No. 63887 ID: 38cd76

Well, something does need to define saulana as unique. I like masks. Wordblood had blood as his weird thing as a primordial, we can have masks.

Masks are a lot more versatile than just 'hiding your true self', some people can argue that that some masks help ACCENTUATE the truth.

Theater performers are also big on masks.

Even make up and beauty, are largely revolving around the concept of a mask. People mask their scents with deodorants and soaps, people mask their thoughts by being POLITE rather than telling your girlfriend that YES that dress makes her look fat. Masks is a very versatile subject INHERENT and ESSENTIAL to humanity, and even if it does become part of our nature, does not have all of these negative connotations that you try to attach to it.

Conversely, I'm not too big a fan of the "reproduction" idea. and I find rebirth as an element both limited, and tedious. Though as a healing deva, I think it has some potential.

Really, I'm not sure how you can think of Rebirth as an elemental concept worthy of a Primordial, but not Masks, which is so much more broadly sweeping and inherent.

Plus, it fits with our Raccoon nature quite charmingly.


I was also thinking recently... I think something along the lines of "speed" or "velocity" could also make a good noble for our Time Deva. How do you define it after all? Distance over time.
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No. 63888 ID: cd4189

>>63874

Honestly? I'd rather explore Saulanna drifting from humanity and embracing her Titanic potential than become a more standard hero. Giving a flying fuck, good. Still think Masks as our Lord Soul is a mistake because we will be defined by our Mask. It's the foundation of our being. It's....artificial.

Sure, we can use it to accentuate the truth. I've admitted that myself. But it means we're always hiding SOMETHING. If we are a Mask, then no matter what our expressions are artificial to a certain extent. Moreso than what is normal.

I'm probably not going to be comfortable with the Mask element until we hear about it more from Wordblood. Even then, I think it will have an undesirable effect on Saulanna's psyche and modes of expression.

>Putting aside the VERY creepy undertones of that argument, how would we get her to agree to that?

Actually, if she had a Life Lord soul of Creation? I'd wager much more favorable odds that she won't be averse to creating life in that manner. It'll be part of who she is to an extent already. This would just be a different form of creating life, instead of from essentially nothing.

Of course, traditional methods may be too SLOW for a Titan. If she's out to create life, there will probably be multiple avenues open to her.

>>63887

I am well aware of all of this, with regards to Masks. And I still don't like the idea of it. Yes, masking ourselves can be very important. But so is being able to take that Mask off. If we make ourselves a Lord Mask soul? I don't think we ever will. Not really. So we'll actually be less trustworthy for it. A Noble soul that accentuates our personality instead of defining the foundations of our being like a Lord, maybe. A Lord, not interested.

As for Masks being inherent, I disagree. I consider them a social construct, and one nearly as....primordial, I suppose? As words. Masks are just a layer, hiding something else. Whatever their purpose, they're not supposed to be more than temporarily. It's rooted in deception, misdirection. A lie can be used to tell the truth, sure, but I don't really care for the potential implications.

I like Rebirth because it's what happened to us. We were reborn, it's a concept very close to Saulanna's life. And rebirth means that there's an element of recreating ourselves, being born again. A lack of stagnancy and element of change, for better or for worse. I like that idea. Second chances and all that. I think it's a more interesting idea to explore than Masks.

Everyone has their opinions. I won't begrudge you yours, I just don't agree with it.
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No. 63890 ID: fb9917

>>63887
Having studied psychology a lot because all my other university classes were REALLY BORING, I think it could actually be argued that there is no 'true self', just slightly more honest masks. It really is a very integral part of how humans interact with eachother. Without it I don't know if anything would ever get done. I also am not really feeling Rebirth, although I'm not sure that's because of the element or just because I don't like where Hymn is going with it.

Also lets not try and spawn an army the Lunar way, please, plenty of ways to build an army without fucking a bunch of raccoons.
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No. 63891 ID: cee89f

>>63888
People ALREADY wear masks at all times - they're called 'personas' and they are central to how humans interact with each other, and from the looks of it, even how the gods in exalted act around each other.

Psychology was a very enjoyable class in high school and IS enjoyable in college =3

Don't wanna get into the specifics so here's the quick version: where you are and who you're with determines in large part what you're willing to say and do. You're not necessarily being less honest, you're just... emphasizing different parts. If you have a job, you're going to act differently there than you do, say, with close friends. You wouldn't insult a customer (even jokingly) because that's not something you do at a job. Your friends, on the other hand, you'll tease to no end because they're your friends and that's what friends do. Mess with each other.

Making yourself look intimidating, telling jokes to lighten the mood, showing courage in the face of terror... all personas, none of them lies, and all things we might have to do at some point.

Personas are inherently mask-like, but they're not lies - they just are.

Also, that's Psychology 101 - not really an opinion. THIS is an opinion:

>Reproduction
NO. NEVER. I am NOT supporting this. This is sick, dumb, and a transparent attempt at getting Saulanna into fanservice. You can't say 'well this will influence her personality in entirely negative ways' then completely ignore the negative effects of Reproduction as a deva, Noble or Lord! Oh wait, that's right. You don't see any problem with Saulanna in a constant state of 'fuck me now', do ya? -_- Why not just come out and say 'i want to brainwash the character into a total slut'?!

>>63887
Peregrin noted it would be limited, and Wordblood's response is that it would work well for a healing soul... which makes sense, putting someone back at full health can be done through a form of rebirth and injuries occur all the time.
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No. 63893 ID: 38cd76

It should be noted that masks are not a solely human thing, though the ways animals represent themselves is much more simplistic than creatures wither higher thought and social functions. The fae exist in creation on a basis of masks too.

We should keep in mind that while there is some bleedthrough, the devas do also retain distinct personality from saulana.

Also, what do you guys think of taking peregrins soul into ourself, as per the first quest. I get the impression he'd still be mostly autonomous, just much more in tune. His loyalty would also be even more assured than it is now. But he'd also be inside of us, much like wordblood is.
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No. 63895 ID: cd4189

>NO. NEVER. I am NOT supporting this. This is sick, dumb, and a transparent attempt at getting Saulanna into fanservice. You can't say 'well this will influence her personality in entirely negative ways' then completely ignore the negative effects of Reproduction as a deva, Noble or Lord! Oh wait, that's right. You don't see any problem with Saulanna in a constant state of 'fuck me now', do ya? -_- Why not just come out and say 'i want to brainwash the character into a total slut'?!

I'll thank you kindly to keep your assumptions on perversion to yourself because fanservice never crossed my mind. OR turning Saulanna into a slut, as you put it.

That is the honest to God truth, by the way. I never ONCE considered the idea of the acts being drawn. I just thought, "Hey, Beastmen exist. Reproduction Element. Hmm. What would be the logical conclusion here...."

So if this was sick, dumb, transperent attempt at fanservice....well you totally misread my motives. No masks with me here. My motives for the Reproduction Element were EXACTLY what I professed them to be. Curiosity and speculation of the possible implications.

And while everyone's chipping in to show off their Psychology knowledge, you guys aren't the only one who took those classes in college. I'm aware of all these facts already. But perhaps I can illustrate my point a different way, since you've jogged my memory on one thing.

Personas, you call them a different mask, yes? But a persona is a construct of the mind and nothing else. A mask has connotations with the artificial, something you wear. That's part of the reason why you like it. But there's a difference between acting different according to circumstance in a relatively normal human fashion and....well, wearing a Mask.

Just because people all do it to some extent doesn't mean that part of our nature being Masks won't make people distrust us. Hell, we even have gut instincts towards things that are too different. We can argue that what we'd do isn't that different from what people normally do, and intellectually we may even convince them. Maybe emotionally too.

But I don't think people will trust us very much, if they become aware that one of the foundations of our being is Masks. They'll always be wondering what our agenda is. Yes, they should probably be wondering that in any case, but I think Masks will prejudice them even more.
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No. 63896 ID: 38cd76

I think we're beginning to be a little too heated here.

In any case, I disagree fundamentally that masks are purely an artificial construct that people wear to hide. Thus is clearly not the case, as even with physical masks there are times the masks do not intend to hide anything, but are purely ornamental, to accentuate what is already seen.

There is also another exalted example besides fae that rely on masks for their very survival and function in creation, that being the sidereal exalted, who cannot interract with people PERIOD without a finely crafted mask.

Also, theres no reason for people to know about our mask soul unless we tell them. The best mask is one that noone can tell is there.
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No. 63897 ID: fb9917

>>63895
...why would we ever tell anyone that information, exactly?
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No. 63898 ID: cee89f

>>63895
The original suggestion of Reproduction as an element included the purpose of 'dongchampion'. And you seemed to be in full support of the idea. Excuse me for presuming, it's perfectly plausible you ignored the purpose and only thought of the practical benefits of the element, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

It's still DUMB.

I don't know if gesgation periods have changed in creation (i vaguely recall that they are longer than real world) but I'd wager good money that they're still relatively long periods of time. Even if we assume that the Time deva could make it go faster without any risk to the mother or the child (i doubt it - this is a FEEDING deva) it'd still be a bloody long while. Time that would be better spent gaining and using TW to make the people and things we want.

Any reproduction we could do by screwing we could do faster, easier and probably more efficiently with TW.

What I find really odd about your argument, though, is that you wanted Saulanna to DISTANCE herself from mortal affairs. I disagree, but how would having children (presumably mortal, even if they were beatmen, children) help Saulanna seem like a primordial titan on high?
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No. 63900 ID: cd4189

>>63896

Even I wouldn't say masks are a purely artificial construct to deceive. They do have many other potential uses. I would, however, argue that they have heavy connotations of....hmm, artificiality yes, but for the most part Masks are made with a specific purpose in mind. The use of a mask is calculated to achieve an effect.

Does that make more sense to you?

>>63897

Who says we'll be able to hide it? At the moment I'm reasonably certain a certain Death Hero has gotten a pretty good sense of our capabilities from a handshake. Who says that won't happen to us again? That people won't be able to recognize our Masks from ways besides us telling them outright?

Although it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you, or will be out to get you if they were aware of certain facts.

Plus, people may be able to see into our Inner World. Not that far of a stretch.

I don't think we'll be able to conceal our Lords just by not telling people about them. We are in a world of extraordinarily competent people. Let's give them their due credit and treat them with appropriate wariness and possibly paranoia.

>>63898

Apology accepted. I am still pretty annoyed, but I would like to try to bury said annoyance. I'll do my best to be civil until I do.

I don't how you got the idea that I fully supported the troll though, since I saw Element Dongcopter with Purpose of Reproduction (You got it backwards btw), and went on to speculate the uses of a Reproduction Element under the dominion of a Life Element with the Purpose of Creation. That was already on the table, from Wordblood himself. I just imagined an extension of that, because there are many ways to create life. The traditional reproduction is the most common, and I found it worth considering its relation to Life.

Also, I was immensely amused by taking the troll bait and turning it into something viable. Not very provocative when you can dismantle it and find something useful to us, is it?

>What I find really odd about your argument, though, is that you wanted Saulanna to DISTANCE herself from mortal affairs. I disagree, but how would having children (presumably mortal, even if they were beatmen, children) help Saulanna seem like a primordial titan on high?

....Uh, really?

Goddess of life, mother to all? A bit like Gaia? Possibly the creator of an entirely new race of beings? Unless we plan on having all our life spontaneously pop into existence or burst from our skull Athena style (both well within the range of possibilities), using traditional methods may be desirable.

Plus, yeah, Titan's Will will probably do the job FASTER. I imagine traditional methods being a bit more like producing supersoldiers or more powerful beings. Those that don't go skull-buster, at least.

Also, IIRC gestation periods in Exalted are longer than normal gestation times. An extra three months, I think?
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No. 63903 ID: cee89f

>I don't how you got the idea that I fully supported the troll though, since I saw Element Dongcopter with Purpose of Reproduction (You got it backwards, btw)
>I'm thinking a Lord Deva with an element of 'Reproduction' and a purpose of 'Dongchampion' would be pretty sweet.

=p

>>63900
Yes, but the problem is that reproduction, but it's own nature, doesn't create a new species. Mating between Lunars and mortals makes beastmen, but as I understand it that's not so much a new species as a half-warform half-human.

When i think Gaia, i don't think 'Gaia had thirteen sons and fourteen daughters' i think 'life can't help but spring up where she walks'. Creating a new race? That's primordial. Having beastmen kids who you selectively breed into fighting machines? Not so much.

I assumed we would create new races as mythological gods tend to do: make a group of them from sheer willpower, then say 'go make babies' and then they do so.
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No. 63905 ID: cd4189

>>63903

Dah. Okay, I apparently derped twice.

As for reproduction not making its own species? I'll bet against that and I'll throw in that fanservice you accused me of pursuing. ^_^

Saulanna. Luna. Shapeshifter sex. Together give birth to a new race with characteristics of Lunars, whatever Titanic add-ons we throw in, and Luna.

Tell me that would not be FUCKING AWESOME.

My idea isn't us, "We make Beastmen babies." That's for bog-standard Lunars who don't have command line access to reality. They have to make do with what they got. WE get to branch out in new directions. Beastmen are just proof that this is possible because if Lunars can pull it off, then we oughta be able to blow them out of the water.

Also, mythological gods do not tend to make life from pure ether. They usually sculpt them out of existing materials (although depending on the creation myth, they may have created the raw materials too. Like Christianity. Less so with, say, Greek gods). Dirt, mud, other creatures, make them from pieces of the gods themselves. Not necessarily body parts either. For Christianity, the breath of life.

Creation myth and the birth of entire species are much more exciting than you describe them. Particularly when humanity is involved. We LOVE to have special creation myths for ourselves. :p
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No. 63906 ID: 34d817

You guys are talking about beastmen... that might be what we'd get if Saulanna had kids right now, but we shouldn't be doing that right now, when we have relatively low soul force and aren't in a safe position. Once we grow a little what will matter is that we're a titan, and when titans have kids those kids are far more impressive than mere beastmen. Many of the behemoths are children of the titans. Adorjan's daughters are the winds of Malfeas; Kimbery breeds up monstrous horrors of unspeakable nastiness and power as a core part of her theme. A titans' children are beings of extreme power which can shape the world as legendary figures in their own right, just as their lord souls are.

So this whole discussion is really a bit premature. When we've got our soul force up in the 10-12 range with multiple Lord devas just as strong it might be time to consider building ourselves some super-kids; not before. Until then not only would they be relatively weak, but we wouldn't be strong enough to protect them.

>>63900
>Also, IIRC gestation periods in Exalted are longer than normal gestation times. An extra three months, I think?
I believe it's nine months for humans and fifteen months for Exalted, but I would want to confirm.
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No. 63907 ID: cd4189

>So this whole discussion is really a bit premature. When we've got our soul force up in the 10-12 range with multiple Lord devas just as strong it might be time to consider building ourselves some super-kids; not before. Until then not only would they be relatively weak, but we wouldn't be strong enough to protect them.

Oh I agree. I agree COMPLETELY. This is all very, very far ahead speculation. We're already discussing future Devas though. This is just speculating even further ahead.

Not because it's practical, but because it's FUN. :p

And yeah. Beastmen are totally beneath us. Like I said, that's Lunar working with what they've got. We've got a toolkit they can't even comprehend, and once we get strong enough.....ohohohohooooo.

Making the children purely from us would work fine. Good for armies. But potential children have more practical uses than our defenders.

And yes, if we're being moral and human we should worry about every single one. I like focusing more on the creation of a race though.

Still, children have also been used to seal alliances. Marriages and children between rival nations, that sort of stuff.

So perhaps as a....treaty, with the gods, a sign of good faith? Child with Luna. It's who we're affiliated with. Luna will likely exert influence over the child as well, and if we prove that we genuinely care for the tyke we look better. And have a child and potential heir. Proof of cooperation between Incarnae and Titans. Something NEW.

Yeah....yeah I REALLY like this idea and potential scenarios it opens up. This sounds downright fascinating to me. To each their own, others might not agree and by all mean do not have to, but man does this sound interesting.

It would be a step towards getting into the good graces of the Incarnae, and possibly some protection. Some really good protection. But convincing them that this is a good idea.....THAT is the tricky part. They'd have to know what we are and agree to allow us to continue to exist.

On the plus side, the child idea really might help this fly while we're weak. Luna can still kick our ass alone, never mind everyone else. Well, geas aside. But they still have entire armies of Exalted to beat the every living shit out of us if we betray them, so enlightened self interest covers a lot. So the gods can be fairly certain of our intentions.

Might social-magic us into some undesirable things though. That would suck. We should probably find a patron to side with us. Maybe Gaia. If she approves of this (and maybe she won't, maybe she'll get annoyed with us for muscling too far on her territory in more ways than one), that could give us the leverage we need. Luna plays Father, we play Mother, and if it all works we have an alliance sealed with a child.

....Yeah, definitely an interesting idea to me.
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No. 63908 ID: 9b155d

>Masks
Have some Exalted canon.

>The Mask is a constellation in The House of Secrets. It is damaged. The Sidereals twisted it to create Arcane Fate to cover up their part of the Usurpation. It represents secret wisdom and things known but concealed. It is correlated with secrets, lies, security services, guarded individuals, religious worship, extortion, and trickery. It is associated with the Stealth Ability.

Arguments regarding the Primordial nature of masks should take this into account.

>Yes, but the problem is that reproduction, but it's own nature, doesn't create a new species.

Depends on what you consider a new species. Behemoths in Exalted differ so wildly I wouldn't say they're a species as much as a class of being, and Kashta makes lots of unique Behemoths the old fashioned way.
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No. 63909 ID: 70c0f2

>>63908
...wait. The siderals damaged the very concept of masks to create fate? So... if we make masks our domain, that potentially gives us a direct line of control over fate. Or hell, long term we could restore the damage and overturn the concept of fate. That's fantastic!

And that list of representations and correlations sounds fantastic. Stealth, knowledge, secrets, trickery, etc- those are all things we want Saulannna to be good at! (And have considered separate Devas for, in fact).

I think we've found a winner here.

>Enthusiastic reproductive ideas
...is no one else a little squicked out by this?
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No. 63910 ID: cd4189

>The Mask is a constellation in The House of Secrets. It is damaged. The Sidereals twisted it to create Arcane Fate to cover up their part of the Usurpation. It represents secret wisdom and things known but concealed. It is correlated with secrets, lies, security services, guarded individuals, religious worship, extortion, and trickery. It is associated with the Stealth Ability.

....Whelp, on one hand we now know that this is very well suited to the Stealth ability. It may very well help us conceal our Titanic identity. On the other hand, Akatrina already probably knows about us, so that information will shortly be in the Dragon's Shadow's hands. I'd really, REALLY rather not have a Deva heavily associated with Deception, and therefore the Dragon, if we plan to utilize our abilities to conceal our Titanic nature. He can do enormous damage to our reputation and blackmail us with potential use of this knowledge if we plan on trying to hide our Mask nature.

Hell, we could be horribly discredited even if we don't hide it. People may wonder what secrets we're hiding. If we're an unknown quantity capable of concealing important secrets, they'll want to KNOW our secrets.

...Yeah, until we get strong? We have our greatest safety in obscurity or being a known quantity. If we're known, they won't fear us as much. If we're unknown, they need to be very, very wary with us in case we're hiding something important.

That said, if we go Mask Stealth soul, and we DON'T let it be used as leverage against us? Especially the Sidereals, because while potent this noses in on their domain? I'd be more open to it. It is still really dangerous and I'm not sure I like how it will affect Saulanna's personality. The talents are great though, and if that carries over to Lunar Quest (not a guarantee, especially with five more Maidens in play) then I'd consider it. It IS a very tempting carrot, I must admit.

But if we really do pose such a threat to Fate and Sidereals, they are going to hunt us down and kill us with extreme prejudice. We are too dangerous to be allowed to exist. We could get too much power over them.

So...tempting, more than I thought, but still quite dangerous in more ways than we thought.

>...is no one else a little squicked out by this?

Hey, how often do you get to play as the potential creator of a new race? A new race with personality, unique characteristics, that's not essentially a Sim game?

The novelty appeals to me.
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No. 63911 ID: cee89f

>>63905
It would not be fucking awesome. It would be dumb. And would not make a race. Just a bunch of OTHER superpowered jackasses who would probably seem a lot like the Dragon-blooded to ordinary people.

>My idea isn't us, "We make Beastmen babies." That's for bog-standard Lunars who don't have command line access to reality.

if we have command-line access to reality and don't want to get the natural result of a Lunar fucking WHY DO WE NEED TO FUCK

>Also, mythological gods do not tend to make life from pure ether. They usually sculpt them out of existing materials (although depending on the creation myth, they may have created the raw materials too. Like Christianity. Less so with, say, Greek gods). Dirt, mud, other creatures, make them from pieces of the gods themselves. Not necessarily body parts either. For Christianity, the breath of life.
First of all, the christian god made man from dirt. Second, THE POINT was the lack of FUCKING!! God didn't screw an angel to make humans, he just put the dirt in place and said 'do it'.

>Child of Luna
........... Let me get this straight.

You want to ask the UCS - embodiment of virtue and more importantly LAW - to let you use his wife (also YOUR MOTHER) for the sole purpose of making a child.

You expect the goddess of chaos, who was in love with Gaia to the degree that (according to someone who i believe was actually in this quest) she ran out into the wyld and put signs up saying 'have you seen this primordial', to go along with this plan.

You want to have sex with your SPIRITUAL MOTHER. THE ONLY FIGURE YOU CAN ACTUALLY REFER TO AS 'MOTHER' SINCE YOU LOST YOUR NAME, WHO LITERALLY CRAFTED YOU AN IDENTITY FROM NOTHING

You expect the fact that the gods MUST obey their Geas to have no ethical repercussions on such an arrangement, nor to actually be a question brought up when presented, assuming SOl doesn't just have one of his exalted kill you on the spot for having the sheer incomprehensible gall to suggest it.

Pretty as Luna might be (I've got like eight reasons I wouldn't screw her but none of them are her fault) this plan is creepy and doomed to failure on so many levels. I'm having a hard time taking it seriously.

I mean, doing something for the gods' benefit as a sign of good faith? THAT is a good idea, and I'm behind it... but THIS?! This SPECIFIC plan?!

Are you SURE you don't just want an image of Saulanna and Luna doing it?!

...I think I'm going a little stir-crazy @_@
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No. 63912 ID: fb9917

>>63910
The whole point of a stealth soul is to hide things like that, though? I don't think Masks are associated closely enough to the Dragon's Shadow that he would be likely to notice us. The Sidereals MIGHT notice us but it wouldn't be because of the soul, it would be because they got lucky. Or because we did something to screw with fate itself which we should probably avoid until we get pretty powerful, similar to screwing around too much with time, except the Sidereals don't have access to a 'Loom of Time'. Also we should totally eat a Sidereal at some point. Or turn one into an akuma. Probably a third of the Sidereals are huge jerks, so it could totally be a moral, upright thing to do! And then we would have access to SUPER KUNG FU.
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No. 63913 ID: 70c0f2

>Kat already knows! TDS already knows!
Assumptions. She may or may not know yet, and even if she does, she may never get the opportunity to report back.

And even if TDS shadow learns who and what we are, stealth is not without it's advantages.

>Ahh, so many possible negative implications for masks!
I really think you're overrating, here. It's all in how it's interpreted or applied. There are easily as many positive implications, and the idea that we would stop having a 'true self' (trapped behind masks!), or that we'd be unable to ever tell the truth, or that people would automatically hate us for having secrets seems somewhat hysterical.

We don't know how any element will actually work until the GM says so (see Wordblood's last infodump. A lot of popular ideas suddenly looked bad, and time went from having one or two supporters to tons of em). I promise once we know how Masks would work- what the pros and cons actually are- we'll give them some thought. But for now, could we stop arguing about baseless assumptions? Several of us find the idea interesting, and we're not gonna stop that just because of what the worst case might be.

>Hey, how often do you get to play as the potential creator of a new race?
On tgchan? Fairly frequently, actually.

Honestly, I thought our plan was to improve the world, somehow? Recklessly creating a new race or races and dumping them into creation seems absurdly irresponsible, and likely to create more chaos and upheaval.
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No. 63915 ID: 34d817

>Discussion of Masks
Seems interesting and useful. I'm still hoping for a Lord soul with a purpose of something like "Protect me and mine" and a stealth-related element; Masks would serve admirably as the element there, I think. We'd have to make sure that the concept is fundamental enough, though; we've run into issues with "is that really that primordial" before and an argument could be made that Masks isn't.

>>63906
>I believe it's nine months for humans and fifteen months for Exalted, but I would want to confirm.
Have now confirmed, this is right.

Except that when you start bringing in the effects of special abilities, particularly titanic ones, this isn't a hard rule. Adorjan has a charm that can reduce the duration of almost whatever task she wants by 2^(Essence-1), for example, and as it explicitly includes pregnancy a 15-month gestation time becomes something like 21 hours for her. Given that we've got time as a core part of our identity now, we should be able to pull similar ridiculousness if we so choose- Adorjan does hers through a core concept of impatience/speed, I believe.
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No. 63916 ID: cd4189

>>63911
>It would not be fucking awesome. It would be dumb. And would not make a race. Just a bunch of OTHER superpowered jackasses who would probably seem a lot like the Dragon-blooded to ordinary people.

If you're going to just call them super-powered jackasses, then you might as well resign yourself to fact that anything we create will probably become a bunch of super-powered jackasses.

>if we have command-line access to reality and don't want to get the natural result of a Lunar fucking WHY DO WE NEED TO FUCK

If the Judeo-Christian God can do whatever he pleases, why did he make Eve from Adam's rib instead of just making her out of thin air?

For starters, it's a story, and people like symbology, metaphors, and familiar elements that help them relate to the characters. Practically, because I'd say something that is based in pre-existing reality is more likely to work. Sounds better. Make them out pieces of stuff or your own body, conventional methods are just a pre-existing method we alter to suit our desires.

Also, see above Exalted canon of people who conventionally birth super-powerful beings. Like Behemoths. Can't believe I forgot those.

>First of all, the christian god made man from dirt. Second, THE POINT was the lack of FUCKING!! God didn't screw an angel to make humans, he just put the dirt in place and said 'do it'.

First, yes. Didn't I say that myself? Or pretty close to saying it outright. Second, Christian God is not the only god out there in mythology. Take a look at Greek mythology sometime. Fucking galore there, lemme tell you.

>You want to ask the UCS - embodiment of virtue and more importantly LAW - to let you use his wife (also YOUR MOTHER) for the sole purpose of making a child.

Since when was Luna his wife? For starters, Luna doesn't have a single gender so the title of Wife is only going to be completely accurate half the time.

Also, last I checked Luna was GAIA'S consort.

Finally, since when is Luna our mother? We're just one of her champions. I don't recall us calling her our mother....I'd have to check.

Also, you seem to be assuming that this would be Step One. Ahahahahaaaaaaa.....hell fucking no. If this is step one, we're gonna die. This would be something to suggest AFTER we've already presented a lot of evidence that we're on the side of Creation. Something like this happens after both sides trust each other and are reasonably certain they can work together. The alliance through child is a way of sealing the deal.

Like, well, marriage between monarchies. Two of the family marry and produce child, everyone settles down more.

>Pretty as Luna might be (I've got like eight reasons I wouldn't screw her but none of them are her fault) this plan is creepy and doomed to failure on so many levels. I'm having a hard time taking it seriously.

If you're taking this as a stand-alone plan that be implemented as soon as possible instead of a final event that solidifies an alliance, I don't blame you.

>Are you SURE you don't just want an image of Saulanna and Luna doing it?!

Yes, actually. I'm vaguely intrigued by it, but mostly I'm in Mad Scientist mode and cackling inside my head at the possibilities if it succeeds.

>...I think I'm going a little stir-crazy @_@

You are reacting pretty strongly to this. Might want to take a break. That's what I do when I start getting to invested and emotional about online games. Step back, detach.

>>63912

Okay, as much as I like my plan? Even I can admit that it has many, many ways to go horribly wrong.

I think this plan is even more likely to get us killed. Fucking over the Sidereals, assuming they can't catch us (I'm not betting against that thankyouverymuch), eating their souls?

We eat any Exalted aligned with the Incarnae, we are gonna be on their shit list soooooooo fast.

>>63913

>Assumptions. She may or may not know yet, and even if she does, she may never get the opportunity to report back.

Hey now, I never put much stock in TGS knowing. Not unless Kat can telepathically send back that knowledge. Or is using this restroom break to do so.

....Okay, more likely than I thought five minutes ago. I'm still going to plan as if she does, and hope she doesn't.

>And even if TDS shadow learns who and what we are, stealth is not without it's advantages.

This is true though. If we get found out, avoiding conflict sounds better.

>I promise once we know how Masks would work- what the pros and cons actually are- we'll give them some thought. But for now, could we stop arguing about baseless assumptions? Several of us find the idea interesting, and we're not gonna stop that just because of what the worst case might be.

I'm fine with that.

>On tgchan? Fairly frequently, actually.

I need to hang around here more often.

>Honestly, I thought our plan was to improve the world, somehow? Recklessly creating a new race or races and dumping them into creation seems absurdly irresponsible, and likely to create more chaos and upheaval.

But fun! And maybe even necessary/beneficial!

Still, point taken. This speculation of mine is so far in the future it probably will never happen, and circumstances may change to the point where it's just not viable. But hey, brainstorming ideas like this is fun!

>>63915
>Except that when you start bringing in the effects of special abilities, particularly titanic ones, this isn't a hard rule. Adorjan has a charm that can reduce the duration of almost whatever task she wants by 2^(Essence-1), for example, and as it explicitly includes pregnancy a 15-month gestation time becomes something like 21 hours for her. Given that we've got time as a core part of our identity now, we should be able to pull similar ridiculousness if we so choose- Adorjan does hers through a core concept of impatience/speed, I believe.

Huh! Good to know. Very good to know. And I suspect that if we restrict our time haxx to our body, especially things inside our inner world, we'll have much fewer causality problems.

Good to keep in mind. Thank you.
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No. 63917 ID: cee89f

>If you're going to just call them super-powered jackasses, then you might as well resign yourself to fact that anything we create will probably become a bunch of super-powered jackasses.
The problem is that you seem to want to make a race of spja JUST TO MAKE A RACE of spja. What would making a new race created from screwing mortals we happen to be around with high arousal accomplish besides creating SPJA?!

>First, yes. Didn't I say that myself? Or pretty close to saying it outright. Second, Christian God is not the only god out there in mythology. Take a look at Greek mythology sometime. Fucking galore there, lemme tell you.

To the first, no, you said 'breath of creation'. Secondly, I don't like Greek origin stories for that exact reason.

>Wife
Is shorthand, based on the fact that Luna is generally depicted as female (for some reason). As you full well know.

>Also, last I checked Luna was GAIA'S consort.
Then Gaia went missing, she fell into a depression for a long, long time while while looking for her/him/it/GAIA and she started shacking up with the UCS later for some reason... i think >.> I keep getting conflicting information online, this is the closest i was able to salvage.

>If the Judeo-Christian God can do whatever he pleases, why did he make Eve from Adam's rib instead of just making her out of thin air?
I'm going to ignore that on the basis that I don't want to try and have a debate involving real-world modern religions - they're never civil for longer than a few posts.

>This would be something to suggest AFTER we've already presented a lot of evidence that we're on the side of Creation.
Putting the cart before the horse a bit, aren't ya? >.>

>Finally, since when is Luna our mother? We're just one of her champions. I don't recall us calling her our mother....I'd have to check.
Well, no we didn't, but A) she's the closest thing to a mother an amnesiac exalted by her hand has got, and B) I thought that was how the relationship between Luna and Lunars (specifically the silver pact) worked. Physically, no, Luna isn't your mother but spiritually, Luna's the person you look to for guidance and aid, someone who helps you when you're in trouble, someone you can always trust not to lead you astray. IE, yo spirit-mama.

...And it occurs to me that with that definition wordblood is technically our spirit-daddy.

Who is deep inside us.

...I am thoroughly creeped out now. Someone punch me!!
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No. 63918 ID: 5bf190

Some parts of this discussion are getting a little too passionate, I think. How about shifting topic a little?
>>
No. 63919 ID: cd4189

>>63918

*pouts*

But this kind of speculation is fuuuuuuuun!

We are getting a bit out of hand though. Sensitive topics are coming up that don't look like they'll be easily resolved. Good topics....

Okay, got one. What's Akatrina up to>

>"I agree. It was a long trip here, and I know I'm not feeling at my best; I'm sure others here are feeling some strain as well. We've clearly gotten into some sensitive topics, and we'd all benefit from being a little cooler under our collars. We'd be glad to accept your hospitality, sir Kaan."

Everything she said is likely completely true. But I don't think she was fooled. So what's her agenda? Is she trying to regain strength, just in case things get messy? Gather intel? If so, on who? We're the obvious choice, but maybe the Lunars and Peregrin too? Send word back to the Dragon's Shadow with whatever she's found so far? If she knows our Titanic nature, that may be reason enough. If she's got Shadow magic that lets her spy on us right now, she may still be gathering intel. At best (for us), she's using the time to plan her next move.

She allowed the withdrawal for a reason. What do we think her reason might be? What does she gain from this?
>>
No. 63920 ID: a0263a

>>63918

Jukashi! Is there a time frame on the update? I know you said it would be longer than a usual wait, but a hint of when to expect it would keep my from refreshing the Quest page every few minutes >.<
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No. 63921 ID: cee89f

>>63918
One of the Texans visited my cousin in the hospital while she had a staffe infection and pneumonia. So did her favorite player from the same team.

>>63919
It's social combat. The reason is that she was convinced that stopping was the best course of action. Possibly, her instructions also include not getting into a fight if it can be helped.

Assuming she has no hidden agenda (GYAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... heh. That's a good one.):
-Peregrin convinced her this wasn't the best place for a debate
-Askalaff agreed with Peregrin and stipulated that the topics were sensitive
-She was tired from her own journey. Probably. Quick-travel or not it was most likely quite a distance.
-All involved parties agreed to just drop the subject until everybody was better rested
-Dropping the subject for now isn't an unreasonable request
>>
No. 63922 ID: 9b155d

>>63909
>...wait. The siderals damaged the very concept of masks to create fate? So... if we make masks our domain, that potentially gives us a direct line of control over fate. Or hell, long term we could restore the damage and overturn the concept of fate. That's fantastic!

That was a quote from the white-wolf wiki, but that part is a bit misleading. After the Usurpation, they basically shoved the bits of Fate saying what happened into the Mask Constellation and it couldn't handle the strain and cracked. It's what kept them from being sanctioned for offing all the Solars because the Gods had no way to prove who did it.
>>
No. 63923 ID: cd4189

>>63921

Indeed, all possible reasons you suggest are valid.....but give no guarantee that they're the only reasons Akatrina may have.

I'm expecting an opponent as savvy and experienced as Akatrina to try and accomplish multiple objectives and keep tabs on everyone she can (within reason and feasibility). Letting us out of her sight, when she was sent to investigate a disturbance she at very least now knows as us?

Us getting away this cleanly seems terribly optimistic to me. Peregrin admits we got a good deal, but doesn't think it was sufficient enough. I think Akatrina walked away from that round of combat the winner on multiple levels, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

In the meantime, I'd like to have a good idea of when and how that shoe will drop. If Akatrina gets word back to the Dragon and we are no longer protected via obscurity, I think we need to consider getaway plans, or ways to fortify our own position.

I would like to get out of the Dragon's Shadow's territory soon though. If we stay without the benefit of some kind of stealth or obscurity that can fool the Dragon's Shadow, I think we'll be looking at a face to face confrontation rather soon.

This might sound paranoid but people ARE out to get us. Betting on our apparent good fortune with such competent people nearby seems like it will just get us trapped by SOMEONE.
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No. 63924 ID: cee89f

>>63923
Oh yes, because a definite, concrete theory on her goals that is a perfect explanation is COMPLETELY possible to pull together from the little we know of her. Especially when my theory leaves the possibility of a hidden agenda - ie, something we don't know for certain =p

We really can't do much to get out of the Shadow's territory at the moment. At the very least, we have to wait until the sun comes up before we run. If we do that though, we leave Peregrin's land in a very bad position, either because we took peregrin with us or because we left him there with the Dragon's ire gathered.
>>
No. 63925 ID: cd4189

>>63924

A concrete theory of Akatrina's motivations? Gods no. We don't know nearly enough to say for certain. We don't know how much power she has beyond a vague sense, we don't know her orders, we've had only one encounter....a Sherlock Homes-ish deduction is laughable unless we somehow get magic that gives us our answers.

What we CAN do is speculate possibilities. Put ourselves in Akatrina's shoes as best we can, and do our best to cover our bases. Personally, I like to start at the worst case scenario and work my way up.

Or we speculate on the Lunars and what they're up to. We have a much better handle on them, not least because we can listen in on their 'secret' conversation. They want more intel. They're confused by us, a bit unbalanced, and they want to know more. Or the brains of the operation does, and convinced the brawn. They want to get out alive too, and killing time is a good way to accomplish both.

Actually, I'll bet you that Alice or the Captain may be facing our visiting Exalts. Talking to other Exalts is toeing the line with the ceasefire. Talking to hired help who have observed Saulanna and Peregrin? Fair game. They'll also be very easy to work with. I'll bet Akatrina could even get a handshake and wave off any usage of Shadow Magic by citing her usage of it on Saulanna.

Yeah.....if either one chooses to gather intel, chatting up the residents is probably a very lucrative and unthreatening route for them. Good reason to do so, easy targets, and most importantly to us, probably going to pay off extremely well for them.

And no, we're not getting out the here at the moment. We have to think more than a few steps ahead. Saulanna is best when she has a problem in front of, but we need to think further. Depending on the possible outcomes of this encounter, we need to have an idea of what to do in what scenarios. Not EXACT scenarios mind you, just general ideas. Like...cover unblown, Lunars appeased. We stay here. Cover blown, Lunars and Akatrina know, and are spreading information? What if only one side knows? What if they get away?

Although at the moment, planning for things like an escape probably won't bear much fruit until we pick Peregrin's mind for information beyond the borders.

....Although maybe we can screw with time just enough, in a single area, to get out of here. Risky, may attract attention to us while we escape, but potentially viable.

Ahh, speculation. Tis fun, but I reallyy need to keep a better leash on my mind, lest it wander too far.
>>
No. 63926 ID: cee89f

>A concrete theory of Akatrina's motivations? Gods no. We don't know nearly enough to say for certain. We don't know how much power she has beyond a vague sense, we don't know her orders, we've had only one encounter....a Sherlock Homes-ish deduction is laughable unless we somehow get magic that gives us our answers.

>What we CAN do is speculate possibilities. Put ourselves in Akatrina's shoes as best we can, and do our best to cover our bases. Personally, I like to start at the worst case scenario and work my way up.

...i was being sarcastic -.- In response to THIS:
>Indeed, all possible reasons you suggest are valid.....but give no guarantee that they're the only reasons Akatrina may have.

... No, ya know what? screw it. Not talking to you anymore.
>>
No. 63927 ID: cd4189

Well, I apologize for taking you too seriously. I let my mind wander while I'm here and lose tidbits and context as I type.

Do as you will.
>>
No. 63928 ID: d158fb

Jeeze, you guys. Now jukashi's going to rage quit. Then we'll never find out what happens to saulana's new deva.
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No. 63929 ID: cd4189

I hope not. I'd be very much saddened if my thinking out loud and the resulting discussion/argument derailed the actual Quest.
>>
No. 63938 ID: cee89f

>>63928
Last I checked Jukashi still had tendonitis. If this IS bad enough that he wants to ragequit, I am perfectly okay with that.
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No. 63943 ID: a0263a

>>63938

Oh Crap, he has Tendonitis? I must have missed that announcement. I feel like a jerk now.
>>
No. 63944 ID: f2c20c

To be honest I don't even read this thread anymore because the arguments are so pointless and long-winded.
>>
No. 63945 ID: a0263a

Arguments or not, there are some good ideas floating through. I'll probably remember them for later when the story progresses a bit.
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No. 63947 ID: 38cd76

I normally like the arguments of both of the recent arguees. In any case...

Does Jukashi still have tendonitis? It's been a while now. From my own experience, it doesn't seem to ever really go away, but surely its better by now?

I had a thought, about the Eating of a Sidereal soul.

You know, technically, we don't even need to eat it. We can just confince them to let us have it, and then we can take it into ourself. Rather, Saulana can take it into her inner world. Again, what she would have done with Peregrin at the end of last thread if we'd wanted to. The Sidereal would be perfectly loyal by that point, and still an externally moving personality.

It might be worth a shot.
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No. 63949 ID: 5bf190

>>63947
>>63943
>>63920

Not going to ragequit. I do still have the problem with my arm, chronic now essentially, but under normal circumstances it's not really a bother. However, I am in college as well, and I have to take notes and such. So the more I do the worse it gets and the less I draw, particularly when there's a lot to draw. It's essay season, too. I would be remiss to pretend, however, that there's not also a factor of me just being lazy or distracted from time to time.

Definitely no update for another couple of days. Maybe not 'till the end of the week.
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No. 63953 ID: cee89f

>>63943
He had it before starting up ch.2 of Lunar Quest. It's one of the reasons (probably the MAIN reason) KoC stopped updating.

>>63947
Think so. I vaguely recall him saying something like 'this art style doesn't put too much stress on my arm'

>>63949
Ouch. Well it's nice to have a time frame now, at least. Thank you
>>
No. 63954 ID: 38cd76

>>63949
Do you use wrist braces? I use those when my tendinitis starts acting up. You likely have it worse than me, so I'm certain you do, but if by any chance you don't they can help a lot.
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No. 63955 ID: fb9917

>>63947
Yeah, that's creating an akuma. It's a very useful ability as long as we don't use it on undeserving people. It kinda destroys their free will. Akuma created by the Yozis(the Titans trapped in Hell) are actually generally more powerful as a result of the process, with Sidereals and Lunars gaining access to Solar Circle Sorcery, which they normally can't learn for example, but I'm not sure how exactly that works and whether our akuma would be weaker.
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No. 63966 ID: cee89f

Something I just found: Gaia's title is "The Spirit of Creation" while Cytherea is known as the Mother of All.

Which is odd, because I always heard GAIA'S title as 'mother of life' or 'mother of all' =/
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No. 63973 ID: d785c7

So why did we decide against making peregrin our akuma again? Shouldn't that eliminate some of the edge that the dragons shadow has against us?
>>
No. 63977 ID: fb9917

>>63973
Because his personality would have bled into ours and also it's a pretty horrible thing to do to someone.
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No. 63978 ID: cee89f

>>63973
Because we could accomplish the same thing by giving him his true name, also ensuring his loyalty (without the ethical ramifications of Akuma) by giving him EXACTLY what he wants, making him more resistant to persuasion, and still allowing him free agency to act and think as he pleases.

At the moment, the Dragon's Shadow doesn't even know we exist, else why have someone investigate? Akatina may know but she hasn't told the Shadow as of yet. It's not like the Moon Heroes are going to let her out of their sight long enough for her to send off a message.
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No. 63979 ID: 6b8359

I just mean, its far less horrible to do to someone while saulana is still young. Her inner world isn't yet big enough for him to get lost. He'd have much more direct access to our titanic magical and essence, he'd likely even become a substantial part of the Titan we are becoming. A deva, if you Will, much like saulana is. Additionally, Wed also have access to these secret plans of the dragons shadow that he's hiding from us. It's nothing but win-win all around!
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No. 63980 ID: 70c0f2

>>63979
I think that ship has sailed. And it's not win-win. There are downsides to melding our personality directly with another being and absorbing them. We've had enough conversations about the potential risks of certain Devas on our personality, incorporating a fully formed person has a lot worse implications.

There are also advantages to having independent allies, and we lose those if we reduce him to another extension of Saulanna.
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No. 63982 ID: 9b155d

I can't recall a single instance of Akuma becoming part of a Yozi in Exalted, and there have been a lot of Akuma. Also, Akuma have very limited ability to act independently.

Beyond that, while Akuma get access to Demon Charms in normal Exalted, Solar Tier Exalts don't gain anything else except the patronage of the Yozi. We can probably grant him those charms anyway, and him knowing his True Name has been said to grant other bonuses. All in all, he's probably stronger this way and can better serve us. Plus no leak over from his personality!

Remember that the reason we trust him as much as we do now isn't because he showed himself to be trustworthy anywhere in the past. It's because we know he's trustworthy because of the oath. Bleed in from him was, and if someone tries to make him part of is will be a major concern.
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No. 63984 ID: 5eddac

Other akuma only became such of fully developed primirdials. We already know that saulanas soul Will be becoming more titanic via wordblood. We also know that peregrins presence in us would be pretty significant, though his soul would still be distinct, again via wordblood. It's not a very bug jump to make.

Also, how much autonomy he would have is basically up to us. He'd be much like wordblood, it seems, only with an external body in addition to his presence inside of saulana.
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No. 63985 ID: 70c0f2

We made our choice already, and Kaan himself wasn't fond of the idea. I don't see anything like sufficient reason to change that.
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No. 63986 ID: cee89f

>>63982
Screw Exalted, this is Lunar Quest!
...
*ah hem*
Wordblood actually said (while we were about to absorb the Soulsteel maker) that absorbing a person entirely ("as we considered doing with Peregrin") would have some bleedover. So yeah, making an Akuma would make his personality influence ours.
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No. 63988 ID: 6d61f3

>>63986
>"On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient, but his personality, his desires... I will not be able to surgically remove and abstract them from you, as I can with those who are devoured. You are not a whole Titan, into whom a single soul will vanish. He will be separate, and that will be some protection, but also a part of you, as I am; and I think we have already begun to blur a little, my lady. I do not recall telling you that this willing absorption was possible, and yet you knew."

Emphasis on the part where he specifically says "he will be seperate" and "but also a part of you, as I am"

We wouldn't be devouring him the way we do stray souls.


As far as it being too late. It's never really too late, and his true name and such that we've already gotten from him I think would still provide some benefits.
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No. 63990 ID: cee89f

>>63988
And he was very clear, VERY CLEAR, that the fact that it was different from eating souls would be the EXACT reason there would be seepage.

In the quote you put into that post, in fact -_- Here:

>"On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient, but his personality, his desires... I will not be able to surgically remove and abstract them from you, as I can with those who are devoured. You are not a whole Titan, into whom a single soul will vanish."

So YES, MAKING PEREGRIN OUR AKUMA WOULD INFLUENCE OUR PERSONALITY!
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No. 63998 ID: 6d61f3

I never said there wouldn't. I just don't see why that's a problem. He would also still be himself.
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No. 63999 ID: 70acd0

Enslaving a sentient being, especially with the caveat that they will remember their past freedom is a Bad idea. Emphasis on the capital B in Bad.
Ignoring the issue of seepage, doing so would change us from being predator into being a slaver. Not just the type of slaver that removes physical freedom, but one that removes spiritual freedom.

Now, add in the fact that the current target of this line of speculation is the champion of an entity that hates slavery with a passion. In one fell swoop, we'd be making mortal enemies of several of the most powerful entities in existence. One of which would likely be alerted to what happened the instance the deed was done. Then there's the more immediate problem of the present champions turning on us.

So yeah, merging in souls in that manner has Bad idea written all over it.
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No. 64000 ID: cee89f

>>63998
That's the thing about being an Akuma: you gain a connection to the primordial but also lose your free will. As Peregrin demonstrated in thread 1, it's not very desireable for him.

It's also very bad for us, because the main reason it seems we would want to absorb him rather than have him as a vassal would be that he was a person that would be undesireable to work with. We want the exact OPPOSITE right now - we're still trying to convince creation we aren't a bad Primordial, right?

And unless we're given a very good reason, I don't see why we should go back on our word now and turn Peregrin into a slave when we works better as our vassal and/or partner.
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No. 64001 ID: 3dd855

>>63998
The Lunar Quest equivalent to Akuma is not a one-way street, you idiot. Turning Peregrin into an Akuma would mean that Saulanna would be tainted by Peregrin, in personality and in nature. That is, Saulanna would become more like the not nice, quite possibly down right mean person Peregrin is, and have Death and Shadow taints from Peregrin Death Hero Exaltation (which is a bad thing; see Peregrin's reaction to the Death Element suggestion).
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No. 64009 ID: 38cd76

Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't become a coopted part of a greater being yet. ;)

On a more serious note, Peregrin retaining his identity and bleeding into Saulana is why it's not so completely horrible as normal. He still has a say, he has just about as much a say as wordblood does in fact.

Are we trying to argue now that we treat Wordblood horribly, and that we need to be trying to find a way to emancipate him? I mean, we'd stop having personality bleed from him too, if we did that!

And having coopted him, we'd have a much more direct source to his knowledge, we already know there are things he can't tell us about The Dragon's Shadow because of oaths made previously, but if he was a part of us that would no longer be a concern. It may attract attention, if anyone found out, but there's no reason they should have to. And it would give us an advantage against the one figure everyone seems to have decided to make our enemy.

Though the Dragon's Shadow doesn't necessarily seem like a bad sort, really. (I'm not sure if I'm joking here or not.)

PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

>we're still trying to convince creation we aren't a bad Primordial, right?

I think this is the most convincing argument that I've heard, (though the pleasant names and civil tone you all have used have been very persuasive). I'm just not entirely convinced that creation would necessarily find out.

I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?
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No. 64010 ID: ed6439

>PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

Um, no. Peregrin is not a nice guy. Sociopaths can be very charming, because they know how to work the levers of the human mind. And man is Peregrin good at working ours.

Remember, he has even admitted that all he wanted to do is learn more magic. As a mortal he summoned demons to do so. As an Exalt, he made a new Titan. He wants to learn from us, so he appeals to our enlightened self interest.

Treating us nicely does not mean he's a nice person. Or have we forgotten that people lie, and lie a lot? We certainly are. If we take Peregrin's soul into ourselves, we're probably going to share his desire to learn more and more magic, at increasingly great cost. Slippery slope, anyone?

No, even ignoring the enemies we could make, this is not safe for us.

>I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?

We're already hiding a secret liable to get us killed, let's not give them MORE reason to distrust us. Even if we have good reasons, on the surface it doesn't look very good. And we need a good first impression.
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No. 64014 ID: 70c0f2

Peregrin has definitely done bad things. He as good as murdered and/or mind raped pre-exaultation Saulanna in order to create who we are today and doesn't regret it at all. Just because he's polite and charming as a minion doesn't necessarily make him a good person- he's got a relentless in the pursuit of power and/or knowledge deal going on. Considering the potential power of a titan, I do not think those are qualities we want as part of ourself.

Honestly, any potential gains we get by making him part of us don't seem worth the moral cost, or the cost to ourself. (Honestly- it almost seems a classic light side / dark side choice- immediate advantages at the cost of corruption. That's an oversimplification, but...)

And even if his influence is as little as a Deva's- our Devas are basically as new as Saullana is. Saulanna and Wordblood have both been reborn, and Time is being born right now. Kaan is an established being, with a lifetime of development. I think that would give him more sway and influence on our personality than you're assuming.

>Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't had it taken away yet. ;)
...that is some seriously twisted and evil troll logic, there. o_o Bravo!
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No. 64017 ID: cee89f

>Sure, Peregrin wants his individuality NOW. But that's just because he hasn't become a coopted part of a greater being yet. ;)

That is horrendously evil -_-

>On a more serious note, Peregrin retaining his identity and bleeding into Saulana is why it's not so completely horrible as normal. He still has a say, he has just about as much a say as wordblood does in fact.

From a practical standpoint, this is a TERRIBLE idea, especially since he has a stronger force of personality and identity than Saulanna does.

>Are we trying to argue now that we treat Wordblood horribly, and that we need to be trying to find a way to emancipate him? I mean, we'd stop having personality bleed from him too, if we did that!

There is a difference between how we would treat an Akuma and how we treat Wordblood. Wordblood is an Aide, and thinks himself as a part of us and vice-versa. He helps us because that's in his nature, as well as his own self-interest. Peregrin, on the other hand, is only out for his interest in magic. To make Peregrin help us like Wordblood, WE WOULD HAVE TO REWRITE HIS MIND AND PROGRAM HIM INTO OUR SLAVE.

And then there's the fact that Akuma are brainwashed in the first place.

>And having coopted him, we'd have a much more direct source to his knowledge, we already know there are things he can't tell us about The Dragon's Shadow because of oaths made previously, but if he was a part of us that would no longer be a concern. It may attract attention, if anyone found out, but there's no reason they should have to. And it would give us an advantage against the one figure everyone seems to have decided to make our enemy.

First of all, the Shadow is our enemy by virtue of making himself the exact OPPOSITE of good - This is canon, by the way, not speculation: the Dragon's Shadow created the UCS (the embodiment of Holiness, Virtue and Law) so he could be the exact opposite (the embodiment of Unholiness, Sin and Chaos)

Second, he also loses all ability to think and act on his own initiative, which is a VERY valuable thing for a servant to have.

Third, overriding a decision previously made by the players for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON is incredibly rude and stupid. Making him our vassal has worked out very well for us. Why would we go back on that now?!

>PEREGRIN, on the other hand, does seem like a nice enough short, and I think he would make a pretty solid contribution to our developing hive of minds. He'd make a pretty awesome deva. Though we'd probably have to wait a while before figuring out what his element and purpose were. It's not entirely apparent that the Death aspect would come with him.

It'll be a LONG time before we can do anything like make a human soul into a Deva. We can offer him that later if we want, but for now, let's just keep him as our vassal. It's WORKING, IT'S NOT BROKEN, STOP TRYING TO FIX IT!!

>I think this is the most convincing argument that I've heard, (though the pleasant names and civil tone you all have used have been very persuasive). I'm just not entirely convinced that creation would necessarily find out.

When hiding a secret it's safest to assume that there's going to be someone looking for the secret. Sooner or later Creation (or at least the Shadowland) is going to notice Peregrin is gone. Keeping a secret as monumental as turning a Death Hero (i believe there's less than a hundred) as your own personal mind-slave isn't going to be feasible forever.

2) If your plan to fix what isn't broken requires you to keep a secret UNTIL THE END OF ETERNITY it's a bad plan, especially when it all but necessitates you keep Peregrin out of action.

>I mean, there's tons of secrets in creation. What's one more?

You mean secrets that come out of the woodwork every other day?
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No. 64032 ID: 5bf190

>>64017
>This is canon, by the way, not speculation: the Dragon's Shadow created the UCS (the embodiment of Holiness, Virtue and Law) so he could be the exact opposite (the embodiment of Unholiness, Sin and Chaos)

It should be pointed out that, in this setting, "holy" is basically "what the gods like", and is applied in terms of sweeping generalizations rather than anything specific. There are demons, for example, who do nothing but play lovely soothing music all day, and they're still Unholy, just because they're demons.

Virtue/Sin is accurate, provided you're referring to moral laws and systems of behavior rather than Virtue as Excellence, because the DS ain't stupid enough to throw that out. Law/Chaos is sort of accurate but also not quite, as Chaos is a specific force which all the Titans are opposed to. Remember, the Dragon's Shadow is themed around opposition, but it's in the sense of a "dark mirror" style of opposition; key differences, but also in many ways very similar.

Waters sufficiently muddied?
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No. 64035 ID: 70c0f2

>Waters sufficiently muddied?
Eh, not really. TDS being e-vul is probably the weakest of the arguments against for or against what we were just discussing doing to Kaan.
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No. 64036 ID: cee89f

>>64032

Fair enough, but...

A) ... that means that the Shadow made the UCS specifically so that he (Shadow) could be an asshole to ALL OF HIS OWN SERVANTS? Still really, really bad.

B) We're trying to look like a GOOD GUY to the world in general and the gods in specific so they won't kill us the instant we show we're a Titan. In this situation, Unholy is a BAD thing
>>
No. 64037 ID: beeca1

Yeah, the Dragon's Shadow got the King of Primordials to make perfection just so he would have something to be the opposite of. And it worked.
>>
No. 64040 ID: 38cd76

>what we were just discussing doing to Kaan.

I like to think of less "doing to him" and more "allowing him to become." :D

>>64017

1. We wouldn't need to brainwash him. We already have his true-name oath of loyalty, which would very likely still be in place. Plus, Wordblood already guaranteed that it would make him utterly loyal. I mean, yeah he'd be seperate, but he'd still be part of saulana.

2. He would arguably be just as free as Wordblood is, meaning he is still capable of autonomous thought and action, if we let him be. I would imagine he'd still need our permission for stuff, but if we tell him "do what you think is best" I imagine he'd be able to do so.

3. I imagine he'd turn into a deva around the same rate as we do, as our titanic essence is refined. I'm imagining it depends how much we actually would invest into his soul though, much like how it works with Wordblood.


I mean, most recently we ran into a lot of problems of communication with Peregrin, that prompted people to want to enable some form of telepathy with him. This would be negated if
Saulana simply accepted peregrin inside of her.

If they are one, they would have perfect harmony. Which could let us do crazy coordinated things.

I mean, he wouldn't be a MIND SLAVE really, he and Saulana would just be connected on so much more personal a level! There could be all sorts of benefits to being able to be in two places at once.

Plus, until we do there's always the nagging suspicion that he'll wiggle around his true-name oath somehow. He is a vassal of the Dragon's Shadow after all.
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No. 64042 ID: cee89f

>1. We wouldn't need to brainwash him. We already have his true-name oath of loyalty, which would very likely still be in place. Plus, Wordblood already guaranteed that it would make him utterly loyal. I mean, yeah he'd be seperate, but he'd still be part of saulana.

You're proposing turning him into an Akuma. And you just finished admitting there'd be NO POINT TO IT.

>2. He would arguably be just as free as Wordblood is, meaning he is still capable of autonomous thought and action, if we let him be. I would imagine he'd still need our permission for stuff, but if we tell him "do what you think is best" I imagine he'd be able to do so.

>3. I imagine he'd turn into a deva around the same rate as we do, as our titanic essence is refined. I'm imagining it depends how much we actually would invest into his soul though, much like how it works with Wordblood.

... An AKUMA IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A DEVA! They are two different things! Get over it -.-

The crap do you think turning someone into an Akuma DOES?! There's a reason Peregrin didn't want to become one when we could do the true name oath, ya know!

Here: "An Akuma is a mortal or Exalt who has been granted a measure of power by an Yozi, but essentially becomes a puppet of that Primordial."

IE, he wouldn't become PART of the Yozi, just controlled by it. We would literally enslave him to our will.

STOP PRETENDING WORDBLOOD AND AN AKUMA ARE THE SAME THING. BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT. SO YOU CAN STOP PRETENDING THEY ARE!!

>Plus, until we do there's always the nagging suspicion that he'll wiggle around his true-name oath somehow.

Why?! He has absolutely no reason to do so - the oath was largely for our own personal security, HE just wants to learn magic. As long as we teach him Titanic magic (which I assume we're going to be doing at some point) he's not going to try to run.

>He is a vassal of the Dragon's Shadow after all.

No, he's not. He engages in diplomacy with the Dragon's Shadow, that's different from being his vassal.
>>
No. 64047 ID: 38cd76

YOU should probably stop typing in all caps. It doesn't help your charisma level at all.

All of my theories are extrapolated directly from the quest, rather than Exalted Dogma, for one thing. Wordblood was pretty precise about what would happen if we took Peregrin's soul, and it wasn't stripping him of his will. Wordblood himself was the one that said that Peregrin would exist in saulana the same way that Wordblood does.

In most primordials, they're inner world is so big and they have so many souls that one more doesn't make a difference. This is not the case with Saulana. Again, this is taken directly from what wordblood said.


Basing things off of exalted canon will only get us so far, as there's never been a Primordial like Saulana before.

As far as him being a vassal, we already know that the dragon's shadow has made him privy to things that he can't tell us. And that the Dragon's Shadow sends other servants to go check up on him. And that he gets exaltation powers based on the Dragon's Shadow now. That's pretty vassal-like to me.
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No. 64050 ID: 70c0f2

...could we please just move on here? I thought the point of dis was to discuss and brainstorm long range options. Not for one person to make the same case over and over again to get torn apart by others over and over in a decreasingly coherent fashion.

I understand the desire to try and bring others over to your position, but there's a fine line between persuasion and browbeating. Twelve, you're obviously enamored with this idea- but it was voted out originally, and the response this time around has been overwhelmingly negative. Half, our criticism of his position has been made- it doesn't need to be remade over and over.
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No. 64054 ID: 63f851

Hey, Twelvth, I hate to say this but since you got your discussion about whether or not to eat Kaan, we've reached the conclusion that, well, everyone disagrees with you. Plus, the decision was made a long time ago and we've since long moved past it.

I've seen too many times where one person will make a point and won't stop re-arguing that one point until the arguments become circles and everyone gets extremely emotional since that one person prevents any other discussion. Please don't be that person.
>>
No. 64055 ID: cd4189

Alright, let's try to discuss something more directly useful.

Saulanna is at her best when she's being aggressive. Being aggressive means we need a goal. We need to be working something. We currently have two sides scouting us out, and we're pretty much on a side of our own for now, plus Peregrin as a vassal.

So. If we're going to be aggressive, what do we want to accomplish in the near future?
>>
No. 64056 ID: cee89f

>YOU should probably stop typing in all caps. It doesn't help your charisma level at all.

And repeating the same argument over and over DOESN'T MAKE YOU SOUND ANY SMARTER, but I'm trying to avoid personal attacks.

...Really, I am >.> ... What's with that look?

>All of my theories are extrapolated directly from the quest, rather than Exalted Dogma, for one thing.

No, they're not. They're based on contradicting everything another person says, or ignoring them entirely.

Peregrin specifically said that he would prefer becoming an Akuma over being killed. This option was implied to be Wordblood's absorbtion option, and frankly I don't know where you're getting the idea that it meant we'd make him a Deva. The system of Lunar Quests' actions and combat has changed a bit from exalted, but the setting itself remains largely intact (albeit in an alternate future)

>Wordblood was pretty precise about what would happen if we took Peregrin's soul, and it wasn't stripping him of his will. Wordblood himself was the one that said that Peregrin would exist in saulana the same way that Wordblood does.

Really.Because this:
>but if you did plan to do that I think I would rather offer my soul in one piece, as to become your akuma. Though I am... not too keen on that, either.
Makes it very clear that absorbing Peregrin whole would make him an Akuma. And this:
>"You face a wonderful opportunity, but not one that is without potential consequence. If you can persuade this man to give you his soul, you will have a valuable and utterly loyal servant; aside that, however, what is his will become yours. You will have access to all of his power. His magic. On the other hand, there may be a certain degree of... seepage. Do not doubt that he will be utterly subservient,
Seems to indicate pretty clearly that his will will be gone. Specifically "utterly subservient".

>In most primordials, they're inner world is so big and they have so many souls that one more doesn't make a difference. This is not the case with Saulana. Again, this is taken directly from what wordblood said.

This only helps your argument if we WANT to be more like Peregrin, you know. And frankly, even if we wanted to be more like him we could do it without making him a FUCKING MIND SLAVE!!


>Basing things off of exalted canon will only get us so far, as there's never been a Primordial like Saulana before.

Except I'm basing the Akuma stuff on a process that is already known to exist in Exalted canon and to have many occurences. YOU are basing it on wishful thinking mixed with an alarming desire to do something horribly evil.

Seriously, this is downright creepy. Are you THIS dead-set on turning Peregrin into a mind-slave?!

>As far as him being a vassal, we already know that the dragon's shadow has made him privy to things that he can't tell us. And that the Dragon's Shadow sends other servants to go check up on him. And that he gets exaltation powers based on the Dragon's Shadow now. That's pretty vassal-like to me.

The first only proves that the dragon is very careful with his information, which tells us he's a politician. Well dun-dun-fucking-duuuuuun.

The second proves the Shadow doesn't trust him. How does that suddenly equate to 'hes a vassal'? It doesn't prove anything. Hell, if the guy can make Peregrin keep information secret, he could probably force him into being an utterly loyal slave, so this actually HURTS your point >.>

The third is reasonable but in actuality it's because the Dragon's Shadow took over the Underworld, and THAT'S where death heroes draw their power from.

...But that's enough. Not discussing this anymore. It's a STUPID (and evil) idea. End of story
>>
No. 64057 ID: 38cd76

>>64055
>>64050
I'm willing to let it drop. Honestly, it's not even that I was particularly enamored with the idea. But honestly, the first time around there was a lot of indecision still when Jukashi pushed the decision, and wordblood had implied that we could change our minds later if we wanted to.

There are a few arguments I find convincing against it, for instance just the idea that, you know, Peregrin might become something of a friend if we let him, or that it's important we really stay away from looking like an evil primordial.

Mostly I simply find that a lot of the arguments made against it though are not terribly coherent, and not in line with what wordblood said the process would entail.

However, as you say, as people don't seem inclined to actually discuss the possibilities in a coherent manner, I will defer.

>>64055

We should make a priority list.

1. Do NOT get lunar tattoos. If we have to pretend to go along with the other lunars, and then make an escape, I would be fine with this.

2. Escape the Shadowyland. Is the manse in here attuned to peregrin? Did we ever conclude that definitely? There are benefits to being here, but there are also... weaknesses.

3. Music Box.

4. Find Titanic Fragments. I think this is our best long term goals. Wordblood implied that it would be a decently quick way to both gain power, and develop our identity as a titan.

Did I miss anything?
>>
No. 64062 ID: b978d0

I've already thrown in my two bits where I care to. I don't mind letting others have their own opinions, even if I don't agree with them personally.

>>64055
Well, Saulanna was previously a treasure hunter / scholar ( / thief as well, but we don't need to mention that) type, which is a lifestyle that will support our goals of remaining relatively anonymous while giving us time to grow and develop.

Publicly we have the cooperation of Peregrin, and as such we have access to a decent library. This gives us a good pretence to stick around here to study a bit, gaining possible leads on treasure, artefacts, lost knowledge, etc.
We can insist that we're cooperating with Peregrin as what we dig up could be mutually beneficial (nice seed of truth there), in addition to him having more knowledge of the local area so that we don't end up on wrong side of the local authorities (also pretty much true). In other words, we're a relatively typical unaligned adventurer type with no particular desire to step on the toes of others, but also no particular desire to specifically align ourselves with others either.
Also no particular need to be all that specific as to what we're hunting for as currently we would have just gone from "we've got a hunch there could be some good finds around here" to "garner cooperation of locals to perform research and find more solid leads". The latter step having been interrupted by the arrival of the current guests before research could commence.

We're not exactly a pure as snow type, so propositioning someone like Peregrin is well within the scope of possibilites. Rather than outright lie about our scuffle with him, it would be better to infer a back story. Something along the lines of us initially being turned down by him (reasonable response to a random vagabond), followed by a failed attempt at stealing what we wanted, which escalated into the scuffle. The scuffle itself eventually culminating in the mutual understanding that the fight itself was likely to end badly for both of us, thus falling back on a more diplomatic approach which resulted in a professional patron-researcher agreement. Also gives us both excuses to not want to talk about the initial curfuffle directly as we both kinda fucked up along the way.

That whole bit helps to give us a viable back story that explains our association with Peregrin, and possibly get Akatrina off our case with Peregrin effectly presiding over our research and treasure hunting activities in his territory. As a treasure hunter, having located a patron would also be sufficient reason for us to not want to wander off into the forest with some strangers to get ritual tatoos. Still, I'm not sure how to convince the Lunar duo that we're not a ticking time bomb without some strong circumstantial evidence or some such.


I do wonder if we should reconsider hiding our nature from Luna. She does preside over the Wyld and such, including the likes of beastmen and mutants, so might not be all that opposed to having some strange new breed of titan as an Exalt. I also wouldn't be surprised if she already knew and was just waiting to see if we'd get up the courage to admit as much to her or instead try to cover our tracks completely. Not unlike how a parent might treat a three year old that broke their favorite vase but hasn't fessed up yet.

She might just reward our honesty and reverence by providing us with what we need to peacfully get Askalaff and Garmir off our case.
>>
No. 64068 ID: cee89f

If I haven't made myself into a complete demon yet and may offer my own 2 cents:

Our most immediate priority would be Askalaff, Akatrina and dog-boy. We'll need to discuss our alibi with Peregrin - make sure that next time we aren't making it up on the spot, oughta help with our confidence in it.
>>64062
This sounds good as a backstory, though I disagree on the Luna thing. We probably shouldn't reveal ourselves (whatever the cost may be) until we have proven ourselves to be a force for good in the world. At that point, it makes sense to reveal ourselves, say 'I didn't tell you before because I wanted you to trust me, and saying "Hey, I'm an infant of those things you killed/locked up" probably would've done the exact opposite before getting some good deeds under my belt'.

She might understand. Long as we don't go too far in keeping the secret (such as forcing a god to keep his mouth shut with the Geas)

>Trust towards Garmir and Askalaff
Oh that's easy. "Why the infernal hells would I trust them?! Sure, Askalaff was okay but Garmir was an asshole! A SMELLY asshole!!"

>Tattoos
We could tell them that, for treasure-hunting and knowledge-gathering purposes (we could hint we're a scholar as well as a treasure hunter, which would help explain our knowledge of languages if it comes out) we don't want to leave Peregrin's home just yet. To reassure them as far as the Chimera thing goes, we'll say we won't transform. We only have a raccoon and pale salmon form so far anyway - it's not like we'll have much opportunity to transform.

And that if they don't like it they can go f*** themselves. =p
>>
No. 64069 ID: cd4189

>>64062

This....this is good. This is very good. I think the treasure hunter approach is excellent. Our backstory clears and we have Peregrin as a reference. We can even describe the story of our Exaltation. Peregrin caught us stealing from us, and by sheer guts, savvy, and luck we temporarily escape. He pursued us. We were determined to survive, and we became a Lunar. Once Peregrin found out we were a Lunar, we opened negotiations and came to a mutually satisfying arrangement.

Peregrin will forgive our transgressions against him so long as we work with him to repay our debt and crimes to him. We will aid him within reason, and in return he will help us grow strong. The two of them need not be against each other, and we much prefer cooperation to strife.

Peregrin directs us towards treasure and rumors while he oversees his section of land. Together we share in the finds. Peregrin has 'dibs' on all things magical that he can study, and he shares the fruits of his labors with us. We have claim to our own items.

The big problem is that we don't know out own backstory. If we are asked questions to confirm things, we can't answer if THEY already know the answer. But I'm willing to take a gamble and bluff here. It's our best option.

I am willing to consider opening discussion with Luna. She MAY approve of us, and one way or another? We are HERS. HER Champion. We want to be good and just, and we want to help. If we can convince her of this, if we can get a chance, we can get the Lunars on our side, and leave us alone.

....Yeah, I'm willing to discuss our being a Titan with Luna. While it's a strike against us, they've let other titans live. They may let us live. Watched, certainly. We'll lose some autonomy. But we'll gain a patron.

If it works. Risky, but quite a few potential benefits and we can start freely consulting Luna AND Wordblood. Quite frankly, this is the best chance we're going to get to reveal our nature. Other Exalted and agents were born and raised on propaganda against us. They WILL want us dead because we are their sworn enemies. Not everyone knows the whole truth.

Luna does. Luna was THERE. She knows there are exceptions. She, and the rest of the Gods who truly do know the Titans better than anyone NOT the Titans, and the most likely to be understanding.

Okay. When we get the chance, I'm willing to vote that we come clean with Luna. We will not get a better one. Our secret will come up, and Jukashi has told us that it will come out before we're powerful enough to defend ourselves from all comers. At least this way we can curry favor with Luna before it's revealed to her via second-hand sources, and we're known as liars and suspicious.

Honesty Is The Best Policy exists for a reason. Now...let's be honest.
>>
No. 64070 ID: cee89f

>>64069
I'm warming up to the idea of telling Luna, but... As wordblood said, she would tell the UCS, and we don't know how well HE would react to it. It's not a good idea to have the UCS on your tail.

At the absolute least - the ABSOLUTE least - we need to:

1) Wait until we're out of the Shadowland. We need to be far, FAR away from the Dragon's Shadow's domain before we decide to announce to Luna that we're a Titan.

2) Establish a way to communicate with Peregrin once out of the shadowland. He's our ally and we agreed to teach him - it wouldn't do to leave him hanging.

3) Bring this up to her at night. If I remember correctly, the Sun is basically a massive battle-cruiser slash BFMecha. It'd help to be under the moon in any case.
>>
No. 64071 ID: 5bf190

>>64070
>If I remember correctly, the Sun is basically a massive battle-cruiser slash BFMecha.

Sun doesn't work that way in Lunar Quest.

Just me declaring it to be so.
>>
No. 64073 ID: 38cd76

I agree with all of the above ideas on background haxx. I think the treasure hunter scenario has just enough grain of truth that we can easily work with it.

Another good thing for us to work towards, is rediscovering our own past. I'm sure we have a boatload of connections that we have no recollection of, because our soul was "purified".

There must be some trace of us though, somewhere.


As far as telling Luna... I see no need to tell her. But I also see no need to hide it from her.

I get the impression she's much more personal with her exalts than the Sun, she would not have exalted us if she wouldn't agree to whatever we would do with the power. She likes our survivalist spirit.

On the other hand, because of what she likes about us, I doubt she wants us running to her for every little problem. Yeah, so all of fate will turn against us if they find out we're a primordial. Luna's Chosen are Survivors by nature, and elements of change, I doubt she'd want us trying to ask for extra favors.

Heck, he may even LIKE the fact that we're a baby primordial. He is a trickster god, after all.
>>
No. 64074 ID: cee89f

>>64071
Ah, okay. But you DID previously say that the sun was a tool that Sol used to accomplish his duties, so... same basic issue. We trust Luna to think it over, even talk to Sol. But UCS may fire without even thinking about it. At least if the sun rises early we'll have forewarning.

...

Then again, Luna WAS being sarcastic at the time, so maybe they are just big bright lights in the sky >.> huh.
>>
No. 64075 ID: 404f8a

>>64071
oh nooooo D:

The Dirigible Engine Daystar is awesome. :(
>>
No. 64076 ID: cd4189

>>64070

1. That would be preferably, but I think we could really use her help with our Lunar friends now. Or at very least, have Luna promises to get the Lunars to give us an exemption. Hey, if Luna says we don't need tattoos, then we don't need tattoos. We will not get a better excuse than this. Besides, I think it's likely that TDS will know that we're a Titan fairly soon. Even if he can see in our inner world and talk with Luna (and I doubt it). I'm willing to risk the contact here. Better we tell Luna on our terms than TDS's.

2. Agreed.

3. It's night right now, and if we go too far we pop up in the Underworld. And it's possibly going to be night for a good long while. We can contact Luna, by the current terms, for as long as the Moon is full.
>>
No. 64077 ID: 5bf190

>>64075

Consistency. If the regular Sun's a big ol' mecho-ship, then what's the Red Sun, and where did it come from? Plus I have my own idea for what the Sun could be.
>>
No. 64079 ID: cee89f

>>64076
1. It's unlikely that we could find a way to get the Lunars to exempt us that would not look incredibly suspiscious from Akatrina's point of view.

3. The problem is that technically this Shadowland is part of the Underworld right now - it's possible the Dragon's Shadow would have some way to intercept the message.

>>64077
Krypton. *rimshot*

...Uh, i mean... the Dragon's Shadow ascended the Red Sun, couldn't he have made it it's own giant sky weapon? And if not, it could be whatever you've decided the Sun is now.

... well, can't be helped now I guess =) would've been an interesting discussion topic. "If the Dragon's Shadow couldn't make a giant battlemech/ship, then what is the Red Sun?"

>>64073
In Exalted, Luna speaks to all of her Exalts when they ascend, and Sol only speaks to his Priests (Zenith Caste). So yeah, she's more personable. I like to think she's more human than the average god.

I'm dead wrong, of course. But let me have my delusions...

... *sigh*
>>
No. 64080 ID: cd4189

>>64079

1. Who said anything about telling Akatrina? If Luna negotiates or intervenes on our behalf, we could concievably just agree to leave with the Lunars for our tattoos, and not tell Akatrina that we have no intention of actually taking them.

3. If he does, he's been intercepting the rest of our messages too. And if he can do that, there's probably a whole host of other abilities he has. Nothing terrible has happened to us yet. Certainly Peregrin APPEARS to have created a Titan without TDS knowing.

....There's a scary thought. The TDS already knew about Peregrin's plans, us, and he's just keeping an eye on his pet project.

It's risky and we should ask Wordblood and Peregrin before we do. It may be worth the risks though.
>>
No. 64081 ID: 3dd855

>>64077
well

the important thing is

is the daystar still a puppy?
>>
No. 64082 ID: cee89f

>>64080

1. I assumed you meant we would use our connection with Luna to make them leave without Tattooing us.

3. I singled out Prayer because the gods are basically his enemies (even if Akatrina's right and he doesn't WANT them to be) and prayer is the main way to communicate with a god/goddess.

... Yeah, let's ask them about this. We still should probably come up with a way for 2-way communication to be established with Peregrin, though.

>>64081
I AM THE SUN
I BRING LIGHT
I BRING WARMTH
I SERVE THE KING OF HEAVEN
PRAISE MY MASTER!
SCRATCH MY EARS!!
RUB!! MY!!! BELLY!!!!
>>
No. 64083 ID: cd4189

>>64082

1. That's certainly one outcome. Another one is to go along with them, and let them escort and protect you our of the Dragon's Shadow's turf. If we need to leave, we might as well leave in the company of two experienced Lunar Exalts.

If we choose to stay, we can still act as if we're PLANNING to take the tattoos at some point. Just not now.

Besides, Wordblood has said that Akatrina probably doesn't know all that much of Lunars, so we might be able to do some successful bluffing. Best of all, if we get the Lunar Exalts on our side, THEY are under no compulsion not to use social magic. They can use theirs in our defense and against Akatrina. That'd be nice.

3. You singled our Prayer? When? As the form of communication? Is that what you mean? In any case, however we communicate with Luna, it's our only option. If we do it, we just have to accept the risks.

We can have Wordblood speak to Luna, or announce our presence, and imply that we wish to talk more in a safe place. I'd rather clear our dirty laundry immediately before suspicion has time to fully mature, and because waiting and asking Luna to spare us without giving up something in return seems unwise. It'd probably end up with the two visiting Lunars escorting us out whether we like it or not.

Communication with Peregrin would be good, but falls under the same worries you have with us communicating with Luna. Interception is a serious concern. It'd be nice if we had it but we might have to be prepared to do without for now. We're just not that talent at 'magic.' Only at reshaping the world to a limited extent, and with exceedingly valuable Titan's Will. It took an entire measure of Titan's Will for Wordblood to send thoughts into Peregrin, while in the room. Never mind receiving thoughts, and receiving them from across Creation and the Underworld.

We can look into it, but I am not hopeful. Not with our current resources.
>>
No. 64084 ID: 70acd0

>>64068
Bah, someone's got to play the devil's advocate :P
I count the passion demonstrated in the various arguments as being proof positive of Jukashi's excellent storytelling abilities. You don't get those kinds of arguments over a story that no-one is emotionally invested in after all.

I do agree that extreme caution should be taken in revealing our true nature to Luna, though I would argue that we have already proven ourselves to a recognizable degree. We not only bested Peregrin, but also bound him to us by oath. We've also devoured evil spirits and protected friendly ones along the way.
Also note that Wordblood's insistence that we not alert Luna was also primarily based on what memories he had when awakened. A very reasonable line of thought at the time, but he's since gotten much more up to date on historic events, something that rocked his world badly enough that we tried our best to comfort him.

>>64069
Those are some good suggestions for fleshing out the presentation of the back story.

I do think that any consultation of Luna should be accompanied by an appropriate sacrifice. In this case that would be our most damning secret in exchange for her acceptance, and possibly assistance with our current predicament.

I would also suggest staying away from the whole "honesty is the best policy" thing with her though. Being the god/dess of trickery, among other things, that's likely to be somewhat insulting. Better to appeal to her for assistance ~with~ being tricky, asking her to help us manage the very secret we would be sacrificing to her.

Hopefully deferring to her greatness will help stoke her ego, while our actions since exaltation and intentions to deal with the other Lunar champions peacefully will show we're worth the gamble on her part.

First though, we'd need to bring this up with Wordblood and our pending new deva. Preferably gently, as Wordblood is understandably uncomfortable with the thought of going face to face with one of the entities responsible for his. That said, I don't think that Luna would really find anything truly repulses her regarding Wordblood on close inspection.
Either way, we shouldn't go further with it until our inner denizens are all willing to risk it.

As Luna and UCS are partners, I don't doubt that she'd tell him. However, I do think she'd has the wherewithal to tell him when the time is right, preferably after setting up a favourable context. Better a friendly breaking it to him than having it painted bleakly by one of his underlings that have been fed the anti-titan sentiment all their existence.

I do agree that we should only contact Luna about this when she is the primary god with influence over creation. Under the light of the full moon being the peak time.


I would note that I'm not sure if we'd truly be considered a titan. We're not exactly of the same breed as the full fledged titans, given that the core of our being, Saulanna's soul, is that of a mortal. That made us mortal enough to accept our Lunar exaltation. I don't think that would have happened were we the same breed as a conventional titan.
As such, that little variance in our design may make all the difference when we are eventually judged by the powers that be. Provided we don't damn ourselves by our own actions, there is hope that the core differences in what we are will separate us from the titanic sins of the past.


I think there's more that I could respond to, but it's already taken me way too long to get this typed up, so that's it from me tonight.
>>
No. 64085 ID: cd4189

>>64084

>I do think that any consultation of Luna should be accompanied by an appropriate sacrifice. In this case that would be our most damning secret in exchange for her acceptance, and possibly assistance with our current predicament.

It's certainly a start, I admit. She may want more though.

>I would also suggest staying away from the whole "honesty is the best policy" thing with her though. Being the god/dess of trickery, among other things, that's likely to be somewhat insulting. Better to appeal to her for assistance ~with~ being tricky, asking her to help us manage the very secret we would be sacrificing to her.

We're not going to impress LUNA with our tricksy abilities. Besides, there is no way we can sugarcoat this without ringing massive alarm bells. She's vulnerable to us via geas, she may take us being tricky seriously. In the sense of, "Do not bullshit me girl and pretend you're getting away with this."

She's also tied to wilderness and the wild. Some animals know when to submit and give it up. Being cheeky could be...dangerous. Being COMPLETELY honest and relying entirely on Luna may lose us some respect, but being overly tricky with the goddess of tricky is just as bad, if not worse.

If we appeal to Luna, let's not pretend we're getting away with any shit under her nose. Not with wordplay. Being a Titan is not a matter we bullshit about. We're not going to be a passive, submissive little girl, but we also need to recognize damn well that as soon as we ay it bare, Luna's the one with the power.

For starters, she has two Lunar Exalts she can command to kill us, immediately.

Let's not get carried away here.

>Hopefully deferring to her greatness will help stoke her ego, while our actions since exaltation and intentions to deal with the other Lunar champions peacefully will show we're worth the gamble on her part.

Hopefully. Like I said, we're submitting to the stronger one because A. we want to, B. it favors us.

If we're going to impress her, it'll be in the way we present information and arguments to make her WANT to spare us. Our saving grace will be the truth of our actions and intentions, you admit it yourself. It's all in the presentation.

>First though, we'd need to bring this up with Wordblood and our pending new deva. Preferably gently, as Wordblood is understandably uncomfortable with the thought of going face to face with one of the entities responsible for his. That said, I don't think that Luna would really find anything truly repulses her regarding Wordblood on close inspection. Either way, we shouldn't go further with it until our inner denizens are all willing to risk it.

I agree.

>As Luna and UCS are partners, I don't doubt that she'd tell him. However, I do think she'd has the wherewithal to tell him when the time is right, preferably after setting up a favourable context. Better a friendly breaking it to him than having it painted bleakly by one of his underlings that have been fed the anti-titan sentiment all their existence.

This is my hope as well.

>I do agree that we should only contact Luna about this when she is the primary god with influence over creation. Under the light of the full moon being the peak time.

I believe it's still a full moon. Because of TDS' time manipulation, we're still on the same night.

We HAVE our perfect timing. :)
>>
No. 64091 ID: cee89f

>>64083
>3. You singled our Prayer? When? As the form of communication? Is that what you mean? In any case, however we communicate with Luna, it's our only option. If we do it, we just have to accept the risks.

I kinda HAD to. >.> like you said, it's the only way we have to talk to Luna right now. But more importantly, prayer was a function of human souls created by Titans. Titans like our dear Dragon's Shadow.

I'm perfectly willing to accept the risk, just not without stacking the deck in our favor as much as we can. If we wait until we're out of the Shadowlands, the probability that our message will be intercepted drops like a stone.

>We can have Wordblood speak to Luna, or announce our presence, and imply that we wish to talk more in a safe place. I'd rather clear our dirty laundry immediately before suspicion has time to fully mature, and because waiting and asking Luna to spare us without giving up something in return seems unwise. It'd probably end up with the two visiting Lunars escorting us out whether we like it or not.

We could do that, i guess... But I'm mainly concerned about interceptions because the instant the Dragon's Shadow knows there's an infant titan, he could very easily send a lot more than one death hero to catch us, and Akatrina has shown herself to be very capable in her own specialization.

>Communication with Peregrin would be good, but falls under the same worries you have with us communicating with Luna. Interception is a serious concern. It'd be nice if we had it but we might have to be prepared to do without for now. We're just not that talent at 'magic.' Only at reshaping the world to a limited extent, and with exceedingly valuable Titan's Will. It took an entire measure of Titan's Will for Wordblood to send thoughts into Peregrin, while in the room. Never mind receiving thoughts, and receiving them from across Creation and the Underworld.

...That's true... wait, I thought the TW was for the actual ability, which we then used MP to activate >.>

We could use spells across Creation and the Underworld - we know his true name. We can cast spells on him from anywhere.

>We can look into it, but I am not hopeful. Not with our current resources.

We have a literal Deva of communication. It might take time but I think we can manage it.

>>64084
>First though, we'd need to bring this up with Wordblood and our pending new deva. Preferably gently, as Wordblood is understandably uncomfortable with the thought of going face to face with one of the entities responsible for his. That said, I don't think that Luna would really find anything truly repulses her regarding Wordblood on close inspection.
Either way, we shouldn't go further with it until our inner denizens are all willing to risk it.

Maybe. Then again, He Who Bleeds was one of the first titans to die. It's perfectly plausible that the Exalted/Gods singled him out for a reason. By the time wordblood made it clear he would've sided with the humans (or at least considered it) Luna would probably trust him. The problem is getting to that point.

>>64085
>She's also tied to wilderness and the wild. Some animals know when to submit and give it up. Being cheeky could be...dangerous. Being COMPLETELY honest and relying entirely on Luna may lose us some respect, but being overly tricky with the goddess of tricky is just as bad, if not worse.

I'm not sure we could get away with it, anyway. We could try something like this:
"I trust you (probably more than I should - trickery diety and all) and I want to be open with you. So I wanted to let you know that a Titan fragment of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word was spliced onto my soul, which is why you found me in a blank slate."
"So far the only three who know are you, a soul I had to carry in my world-body for a time, and the person who put the piece onto me in the first place. I'm not planning on keeping this a complete secret forever, but I want to prove to the gods I'm a force for good in the world before I become open about it."
"How should I begin?"

Whatever we decide to say, we should ask Wordblood to help us word it so the Geas doesn't take affect.

>>64084
Most of those actions were driven by desperation rather an active attempt to help anything.
>>
No. 64093 ID: b978d0

I was actually trying to suggest we go the animalistic submission route that you have indicated, specifically because there's no way we could really hope to beat Luna at her own game. Something along the lines of "I expect you already know, but I'd like to demonstrate that I know my place by bringing this particular secret out in the open between us."

While I would never suggest bringing this next point up with Luna, ever, she is effectively complicit in exalting a titan at this point. That has the potential to backfire on her big time should we not prove ourselves to be for the betterment of creation as a whole, or at least different than the original titans in a good way. If she kills us off now, along with anyone else that's in the know, it would still look like a serious fumble, should it ever be revealed. The dice have already been cast as it were.

I wouldn't be surprised if Peregrins success with the procedure is part of a broader plot. It's also very possible that Luna exalted us in an attempt to subvert said plot for her own gain. Would also explain the timing of our guests arrivals. Both sides have enough invested to want something other than to nuke us from orbit. At this point that's just my own speculation though.

>>64091
I'd say that what you're willing to do out of desperation is a bit of a window into your soul. When the chips were down and our back against the wall, we not only survived but also avoided acting like a psychotic murderer while converting our primary foe to our service.


I've also had some other thoughts that may be usefull for our long term goals:

Our new time deva may be able to work together with Wordblood to create an UNDO and/or REWIND time effect / power word, or even manage such effects on it's own. Provided it's not retroactive it shouldn't screw up causality unless heavily overused. Would also give us the potential ability to undo singular permanent changes. Such things as critical wounds (before they kill the wounded), minor events, or possibly even the corruption of a Manse or an exaltation if we put everything we had into it (and after gaining more power at that). That's VERY speculative though.

The last two options, in addition to requiring a tremendous amount of effort on our part, would also make us some instant enemeies. Only way to really make it work would be if we had the ability to cut and run. With just Peregrin that wouldn't be too difficult. But the only way undoing the corruption of the manse would be helpfull would be if we also pulled it into our internal world. No way we'd be able to defend it otherwise that I can see.
We'd also not want to ditch the few friendly faces we've met here either, especially knowing that they'd probably be raked over the coals or worse as a result.

I doubt we could acheive any of these high end tasks without a significant show of ingenuity. Maybe if we could creat some sort of feedback loop in the manse that would outright convert it to a compatible element? Possibly allowing the time element to devour the ravages of time, resetting the manse and surrounding area (possibly even the population) to a time before it was corrupted, combined with some form of ritual to take that area of creation into ourselves as part of our own little internal world.

Probably a moot point if we're not able to claim ownership of the manse first anyways. Likely nothing we would have the ability to move on until hitting chapter 3 at the least. Solidly in the realm of distant speculation at this point.

Also, on 2nd thought, absorbing a section of creation that's already had the boundary between it and the labyrinth weakened would probably be very very bad, even if we did find a way to make it possible.
>>
No. 64098 ID: cee89f

>>64093
Time isn't going to help us bring the ghosts here back to life and we can't hold all of them in any case. Purifying this manse would effectively kill them all.

...

Rebirth Healing deva, anybody?! =D
>>
No. 64099 ID: 38cd76

>>64098
Well, they're dead already anyways, right?

I think its a decent idea, to think of absorbing the manse and surrounding territory a good long-term goal.

We want peregrin's resources, but we don't want to keep him from helping his people either. It's win win! We can protect his community inside of us, while going around doing cool things.

I mean, unless we're really careful, by the time we're powerful enough to do something like that we'd probably be attracting a lot of attention anyways.

I could see where Daemos is going with the "devouring the ravages of time" thing too. We'd possibly be able to even reset those ghosts back into living forms along with purifying the manse, if that was the case.

It will take a lot of power though. And it might mess with the strings of fate and causality a bit too much. Though I'm not sure with how being in a shadowland is affected by such things, maybe the fact that its all dead already would negate some of the ill effects.

A life and or rebirth deva would probably help purify the manse too, actually. It would conceivably lower the power costs to us/our time deva quite a bit.
>>
No. 64100 ID: b978d0

>>64098
Fine, do things the easy way if you must.

But yeah, I do think I'm over thinking in my speculation.
>>
No. 64101 ID: cee89f

>>64099
The problem is that we can only hold so many souls. If I remember correctly, we can hold 11 at the moment, and almost all of Peregrin's resources come from his status as Lord and his research into the manse.

>>64100
It's the easy way because IT'S MORE LIKELY TO WORK =p
>>
No. 64102 ID: b978d0

>>64101
I agree. Should have used a :P in my previous response.

In any case, both approaches are well out of the scope of our capabilities. Both present and near-future capabilities at that.
>>
No. 64103 ID: cd4189

Guys, remember when Wordblood said that as long as we didn't screw up Causality too much? Because you're planning it at large now.

We undo a person dying. Congrats, at best they're at the moment of their death. But how did they get here? How do they have all these memories of being dead when they never died? Do they get their Beast Soul back?

And the Manse. We've done a lot of stuff in this Manse. So has Peregrin. The Manse being corrupted is big reason why Peregrin is here to begin with. If we just hit a big UNDO button, we have fucked causality up so bad that we DESERVE to be slaughtered under a horde of indignant Sidereals. Maybe even the Maidens.

Seriously, while it's something to ask to make sure, I cannot emphasize enough how dangerous this sounds.

>>64093
>I was actually trying to suggest we go the animalistic submission route that you have indicated, specifically because there's no way we could really hope to beat Luna at her own game. Something along the lines of "I expect you already know, but I'd like to demonstrate that I know my place by bringing this particular secret out in the open between us."

Oh. Well that sounds good.

While I would never suggest bringing this next point up with >Luna, ever, she is effectively complicit in exalting a titan at this point. That has the potential to backfire on her big time should we not prove ourselves to be for the betterment of creation as a whole, or at least different than the original titans in a good way. If she kills us off now, along with anyone else that's in the know, it would still look like a serious fumble, should it ever be revealed. The dice have already been cast as it were.

A very valid point. She has taken responsibility for us, and if she wasn't aware of our Titanic potential (and the opening chapter makes it sound like this), then it's kind of a strike against her.

>I wouldn't be surprised if Peregrins success with the procedure is part of a broader plot. It's also very possible that Luna exalted us in an attempt to subvert said plot for her own gain. Would also explain the timing of our guests arrivals. Both sides have enough invested to want something other than to nuke us from orbit. At this point that's just my own speculation though.

Not inconceivable, but it's odd how she never mentioned it to us. She was remarkable blase. Yes, Trickery and all, but still. She came across as very unconcerned.

It remains to be seen whether this is "Wait wha- I mean, of course I knew," or, "Wait whahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa.....Just as planned."

Cue pants-shitting from Wordblood. And he doesn't wear pants.

It's worth looking into, talking with Peregrin and Wordblood about coming clean with Luna.
>>
No. 64104 ID: 38cd76

While rebirth would allow us to do all of that without causality issues, assuming we got our rebirth soul powerful enough...

>I cannot emphasize enough how dangerous this sounds.

This is Exalted. "It's just crazy enough to work!" is TOTALLY valid reasoning. :D Being crazy is half the reason to do ANYTHING in exalted.

:D


You should also ignore the fact that I'm the same guy that was telling everyone we need to acquire peregrin's soul. :3
>>
No. 64105 ID: cd4189

>>64104

I'm not saying we couldn't force it to happen. I'm saying we probably wouldn't survive the backlash. If not from bending causality over a barrel and fucking it with a trio of rusty dildos, then from the retaliation from a horde of angry heroes who want this to never happen again.

Or just want a nascent Titan's head on their trophy wall.
>>
No. 64106 ID: cee89f

>>64103
We're not undoing the event itself - just the... effects... of...

Ya know what, you're right. Let's just use a healing soul for that.

...Why yes, I AM still thinking about the whole 'Rebirth' theme for Saulanna's Masked Heroes that we probably are never going to see. But I also really DO think that a Rebirth Healing Deva would be very useful, especially considering we want to be a force of good in the world. Why do you ask?

..Actually, this Manse could be used as a point in our favor when we go to the gods. We could point out that for every soul in Peregrin's domain, the Dragon's Shadow DOESN'T have a soul in the underworld. It's a refuge for souls that the Dragon could otherwise steal, and we've proved that souls can be useful for generation of TW.

Especially when you consider that we are at the bottom rung of the ladder, and DS is sitting near the top with a DEATH DEVA.

>>64102
Oh i got that it was a joke - responding to jokes as if you think the person isn't joking is a type of joke.

...I think >.> If it's not, I've been telling the same 'joke' for years for no reason.
>>
No. 64108 ID: 63f851

Rebirth is, apparently, an idea that will never die here. My feelings are blended on this. I shall use them to make a smoothie.

Anyways, there's probably a few ways to let the ghosts who want to go through final death to do so, so I suggest we ask Kaan about the subject before trying to do resurrection. Either it's impossible because X and maybe we can fix X, or it's just that almost none of the ghosts here would want to pass on even if they could. Besides that, the Dragon's Shadow might well have been screwing with the death stuff since he took over the Underworld, and sticking our noses in that kind of business would likely result in getting our noses chopped off.
>>
No. 64109 ID: cee89f

>Rebirth is, apparently, an idea that will never die here.

Not until I go away, no.

>My feelings are blended on this. I shall use them to make a smoothie.

Joke's on you. I'm making ice cream!

...


You can't blend ice cream?! Where did I get this bowl of ice cream from, then?!

>>64105
I recall somewhere that fighting a Primordial is a maddening experience because of how intricately linked they are to reality - or more to the point, how little sense it makes.

For instance: He Who Bleeds dripped venomous slander from his fangs. The mortal mind can't even TRY to process that that works. Certainly not as it's happening.
>>
No. 64111 ID: 3dd855

>>64082
...You never had a puppy, have you.

>>64109
Nonsense. That you cannot imagine the splendor of the Primordials is but a sign that you are a failure.
>>
No. 64112 ID: cee89f

>>64111
Yes, I have. Three, in fact. Luke, Shadow, and George. I thought it'd be easier to get the joke for people who haven't gotten a dog if I put it that way. Puppies would probably be more like 'PLAYPLAYPLAYSNIFFSNIFFLICKPLAY'

>Nonsense. That you cannot imagine the splendor of the Primordials is but a sign that you are a failure.

It's not MY fault they suck at making human souls capable of actually understanding instead of just WANTING to.
>>
No. 64113 ID: 3dd855

>>64112
Again, nonsense. A human mind is perfectly capable of understanding the great majesty of the Primordials. That you are so spiritually and mentally crippled is no fault of theirs!

It must be horrible, being you. To be denied the experience of being in the awesome glory of the Primordials...
>>
No. 64114 ID: 38cd76

>>64113
I'd like to see the last time you had slander dripped on you. What was that experience like?

I kind of wonder how big a causality problem devouring the ravages of time would really cause. I mean, it is a shadowland after all. So its half in the underworld, which has its own separate rules from creation.

It might be worth a shot. I'd be willing to accept that risk. :D

I mean, as I said before, by the time we get to that point, we'll probably have done loads of other stuff to get ourself in trouble already.
>>
No. 64117 ID: 70acd0

>>64105
Really, now that I've been thinking about it more the more likely result is that we'd end up creating a temporal singularity that spirals out of control. Would end up obliterating a large chunk (if not all) of known creation, with us being at ground zero. As such, please just chock that particular suggestion up to an over-active imagination and file it under "omfg, just no."


I do like the idea of changing the existential jurisdiction of the kingdom that we now rule over via Peregrin. The manse would likely be central to doing such. Would need to figure out a way to do so without effectively nuking the population though. Far beyond current abilities for sure, but might make a nice goal to work towards once we've dealt with the more immediate problems.

I'd also note that while we may be a new breed of titan, we are not actually a primordial. I don't think aiming to become such would really be a good goal either. Better to just work at improving naturally in whatever ways suit us best rather than trying to be something we're not.

As for mortal minds comprehending primordials, that's what sanity/insanity tracks are for ;)
>>
No. 64118 ID: 3dd855

>>64114
Don't be daft - Primordials don't exist in this reality! Can't have Exalted-universe specific things happening in the real world.

(To be clear, my argument is against the bloody stupid idea that the forms a Primordial may take are inherently impossible for a mortal to safely perceive. The Dragon's Shadow is a enormous three-dimensional shadow of a dragon - a really big black dragon, in other words. The Brass Dancer is a tall bronze man engaged in dancing - an unnaturally tall human made of bronze. The Emerald Mother is a woman in a green dress. That they are all but expressions of but a mere few facets of their sum totality of the Primordial - which one may never truly know even after lifetimes of dedicated study - is completely, entirely, absolutely irrelevant.

The Primordial are not Lovecraftian Horrors - Sanity Blasting Eldritch Abominations - that the mortal mind cannot comprehend because of some foolish attempt to cheap horror. They are vast, yes; they are Titanic in proportion, yes; it may very well be that no one will ever truly understand a Primordial in total. But a mortal can fucking look at even Oramus without going insane.

...understand what the hell is going on with what's going on with the weird glimpses into the Beyond, on the other hand...)

I think I am going to just hide the thread until Jukashi updates. For the most part, the discussion and the people (I am including myself here) are worse than useless and just idiotic.

That is, don't bother to respond.
>>
No. 64120 ID: 38cd76

Is there something about this thread that is making people crazy, or is it just tgchan?
>>
No. 64121 ID: bf54a8

naw it's just people get antsy when they are forced to wait. so they are taking it out on each other.
>>
No. 64122 ID: cee89f

>>64113
Then why is that guy gibbering on the ground about that game Adri'an always played?

"Drownball... why... how... where does ball come in... too stupid in too many ways to be real"

>>64114

It took WEEKS to wash that gunk off!!

>I mean, as I said before, by the time we get to that point, we'll probably have done loads of other stuff to get ourself in trouble already.

Screwing with casuality is probably on the same scale as being a Nazi to the Sidereals.

And by 'screwing with causality' i mean changing what you had for breakfast that morning. If it's something like mass resurrection that would prevent us from coming into existence, the nazi would also be on a pedophilic killing spree.

>>64118
>To be clear, my argument is against the bloody stupid idea that the forms a Primordial may take are inherently impossible for a mortal to safely perceive.
1) Including yourself in an insult doesn't make it any less insulting, ya know.

2) FIGHTING Primordials. Not seeing. FIGHTING. Because a Primordial is linked to reality in ways that make no physical sense. When it fights or uses it's powers, it's using reality in a way that humans (who are basically prayer-batteries) weren't designed to process. You're not going to go crazy just from looking at them, but when suddenly you get a political campaign poisoning your bloodstream?

>>64120
>>64121

TGchan + waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting...

I'm going stir crazy @_@
>>
No. 64124 ID: 63f851

>>64122
>When it fights or uses it's powers, it's using reality in a way that humans (who are basically prayer-batteries) weren't designed to process.

We're not the 'humans' in the fictional realm of Creation. We're actual humans here, with our imaginations that are kinda ridiculously capable of stuff. Though things like quantum physics do take some effort to understand, there's really no limit to what we can comprehend or learn. And I don't think that the 'mortals' of the setting are intended to be so mentally limited in any case.
>>
No. 64125 ID: cee89f

>>64124
1) I was talking about humans in the setting, as evidenced by the 'prayer-battery' comment (though I have a hard time believing real-life humans can comprehend things in real-time on the level of quantum mechanics - in theory, sure.)

2) Look up 'Limit'. The original purpose of it was to fight off the maddening effects of fighting primordials. It's function was then taken advantage of for the Great Curse.

I'd link you and/or directly quote it, but every link I find gives me a database error >.>
>>
No. 64126 ID: b978d0

>>64124
I'm inclined to agree with that. Abstraction, black boxing, and externalization of thoughts and memories are extremely powerful techniques that are usually taken for granted.

That said, dealing with an entity that has the ability to turn you into butterflies or some such because 4.2786 mild confusion would really press the human ability to connect the dots, even on an abstracted level. Much easier to do should you survive the encounter long enough for hindsight to kick in, but by then you may already be dealing with post traumatic stress disorder among other things.


As for anyone who wants to give up on the speculative discussion, I wouldn't blame you really. We are pretty much stuck in a holding pattern until the next update, especially with the volume of variables that are going to be defined right quick.
>>
No. 64127 ID: cd4189

>>64126
>I'm inclined to agree with that. Abstraction, black boxing, and externalization of thoughts and memories are extremely powerful techniques that are usually taken for granted.

Yeah. Human beings are crazy smart and powerful. Our endurance, our body coordination, our impressive sensory system....

Problem is, we're in the world where the human baseline is mediocre. So even though human beings are awesome, we look worse. It doesn't help that being stronger just means tweaking numbers on your stat sheet in-game. Being smart and clever pretty much requires you, the player, to be smart and clever. Science and advanced knowledge of the like may be quantified by stats, but true lateral thinking is all on us.

>That said, dealing with an entity that has the ability to turn you into butterflies or some such because 4.2786 mild confusion would really press the human ability to connect the dots, even on an abstracted level. Much easier to do should you survive the encounter long enough for hindsight to kick in, but by then you may already be dealing with post traumatic stress disorder among other things.

Indeed. The fact of the matter is that our greatest strength, at the moment, is Saulanna's ability to consider so many paths of thought using her internal time. If we had to stick to one or two questions or thoughts before reacting....well, we'd be having a much harder time in story, never mind getting the players to come to a consensus.

>As for anyone who wants to give up on the speculative discussion, I wouldn't blame you really. We are pretty much stuck in a holding pattern until the next update, especially with the volume of variables that are going to be defined right quick.

I agree. We've pretty much analyzed the information up to this point as much as we can, so we've moved on to speculation and things we cannot know. Once we get new input, we should have better things to talk about.
>>
No. 64132 ID: cee89f

... So! To recap, we're considering:

-A ginormous number of deva purposes, elements, and related stuff
-Coming clean with Luna
-Rebirth Healing Deva... okay, this one's mainly me
>>64103
-Getting wordblood a pair of pants so he can shit them properly
-Purifying the Manse as a show of good faith to the gods

And we should get Wordblood and/or Peregrin's opinion of these actions ASAP. Is that correct, and did I miss anything?

I propose talking about creating our own exalted again, specifically different abilities of the two or three castes we could currently form. Alternatively, we could talk about how much of an asshole I am. Or what to do if Luna reacts badly to being told we're a titan. Or names for our Deva. Or whether or not it's moral to use souls to make ice cream! And as an ABSOLUTE last resort... we can try doing our homework and waiting patiently.

I vote for the ice cream one! =D
>>
No. 64136 ID: b978d0

>>64132
Don't forget pushing ourselves beyond any reasonable limits, resulting in mutually assured destruction of all creation.

I do suggest we keep the crazy properly contained though. No need to infect Wordblood and Peregrin with it. Besides, it's less boring if we're all allowed to be insane in our own ways.

On a more constructive note:

- Additional deva will need to wait until we know the actual process in more detail. All the musing on different types of deva should help to speed up the decision making process in the future though.

- Most immediate concern is the results of expending the last of our current Titans Will. Followed by getting to know the new component of ourselves while dealing with whatever side effects are encountered (such as the results of experiencing a level of pain only possible by ripping a portion of ones soul off).

- Next step would be to evaluate the offered soul-meal, and consume if the consensus is that it's morally palatable. Currently it looks (to me at least) like we'll likely end up consuming these souls, with objections being in the minority. Hopefully we don't gain any additional side effects like the nausea and +20 Nightmares from last time.

- Assuming we do go ahead with the consumption, finish our inevitable power trip, then take a look at what we might want to do with the accrued TW. Upgrading Saulanna, Wordblood, and the new Time deva should probably be the top priority. I suspect that Saulanna at least will likely be hesitant to repeat the deva creation process right away.

- At this point we can reassess our capabilities and look at how to handle the present guests and possibly internally bring up coming clean with Luna as part of that.
>>
No. 64138 ID: cee89f

>>64136
Oh right.
-Committing Suicide by Broken Causality

I honestly was just putting a list together - i thought we should wait on the Deva at least until we know just what making a new Deva does to us. Wordblood kept saying it would be very painful for us.

Our immediate concern should indeed be the two souls before us - the problem i have is that we have Peregrin - basically the Judge and Warden of these two - telling us he has no evidence they've committed the crimes for which they stand accused. It doesn't make a whole lot of (moral) sense to me to devour them knowing that.

Sure, there's not much else we can do to or for them, but we can at least talk to them about it.
>>
No. 64140 ID: 63f851

On our next potential soul-meal: It's gonna be the first time we use the Time feeding soul to, well, feed. Depending on the nature of the In-Future-Named one, we might have more options than simply consuming them completely. It's unlikely, but possible. As to determining their guilt, well, that's what magical mind-bending is for. Let's see if we can get Wordblood to force the TRUTH out of them. (All Words of Power (Power Words) are spoken in all-caps, totally cannon, right Jukashi?)
>>
No. 64144 ID: cee89f

>>64140
Power words are spoken in the language of... truth or the world or something. Frankly it would make sense if the language didn't have ANY case, upper or lower.

Also, we still need to establish two-way communication between ourselves and Peregrin. Even if we don't leave the Shadowland (which we might, especially if we come clean to Luna) it'll be useful.
>>
No. 64149 ID: 70acd0

>>64144
I think that both the abilities you're talking about would be handled by just upgrading Wordbloods ability to read/write thoughts. The fact that we know Peregrin's true name would give us the infinite range upgrade for the two way communication.

Would also have the benefit of much more control over what information we're able to send and receive. Being able to dig deeper than just surface thoughts, while only implanting the information we want to.

We should also see if it's possible to upgrade Wordblood's ability to absorb book knowledge from cut/paste to copy/paste. That would greatly speed up text based research without drawing the ire of librarians and scholars everywhere.
>>
No. 64150 ID: c1807b

Musical Nurturing next time please.
>>
No. 64151 ID: 38cd76

Do we have any enemies who have libraries we could raid?

I mean, if you have to eat books for power, might as well do it from your enemies.
>>
No. 64158 ID: cee89f

>>64151
Peregrin's the only CHARACTER we've seen with a library. Let alone ENEMY.

>>64149
Except Peregrin wouldn't be able to send messages BACK without a two-way communicator spell - he doesn't know OUR true name.

>We should also see if it's possible to upgrade Wordblood's ability to absorb book knowledge from cut/paste to copy/paste. That would greatly speed up text based research without drawing the ire of librarians and scholars everywhere.

We already have. The answer was 'no, that's ridiculous'.

>>64150
I was hoping for Musical Battle =(

"Don't stop me now~ I'm havin' such a good time~" Saulanna gains +50 Defense! Saulanna gains +50 Speed!
>>
No. 64165 ID: cd4189

UPDATE! At long last, update!

I'll....let you guys experience it properly.
>>
No. 64166 ID: ed1b87

I thought we were about ready for a chapter break. The last thread was taking a long time to load.

>>/quest/474220
Is that us before we exalted? Hmm maybe we can get back some of our memories via this new soul.
>>
No. 64167 ID: b08366

Hymn, please consolidate your posts in the quest thread. Have you forgotten the events of the last episode of exploding thread size?
>>
No. 64168 ID: cd4189

>>64167

Alright, I'll get on that.
>>
No. 64170 ID: cee89f

...

SO.

FUCKING.

WORTH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT! =D
>>
No. 64172 ID: cd4189

Hmm. Anyone want to bet that Time is going to have some very odd quirks? You know how we can switch to internal time to have long, reasoned discussions without anyone else the wiser?

Maybe our new Time Deva can do that to herself, whenever she wants. A distorted perspective like that would not be surprising in the least.
>>
No. 64173 ID: ec2e47

>>/quest/474269
Multi-paragraph analysis is nice and all, but it should really be posted in /questdisc/ due to being so huge.
>>
No. 64174 ID: cd4189

....I think I've figured out our Time Deva.

It, the Deva said, I've changed. Therefore, I am.

I think our Time Deva is essentially a clone of us, minus Exaltation, plus Time Element and a Feeding Purpose.

We'll have to wait for an update if that's the case, but if all of our Devas are caricatures or distortions of Saulanna, this bears interesting implications.
>>
No. 64175 ID: bf54a8

well see, most titans sprang into being whole-cloth. with just about all their devas in place when they are born. thus they can all have different personality. but we are forced to make do with what we have, and what we have is saulunna and wordblood. so getting a pool of personalities from just them too isn't much difference.
>>
No. 64176 ID: cd4189

>>64175

That's part of it, but not quite what I meant. I think I made my point badly.

Our Time Deva's first thought, upon coming into existence, is that they CHANGED. That implies they used to have a self-image, and now it is different.

I think our Time Deva has some of Saulanna's memories, maybe even a complete copy. Perhaps Wordblood's too.
>>
No. 64178 ID: cee89f

>>64174
Well, it WAS cut off and grown from our own soul.

But this is a creature made of time - Entropy's existence basically means that every moment, everything is changing. The universe of the second you read _this_ word is technically completely different by the time you read _this_ one.

Humans don't think that way, obviously. But a Time deva very well might see the world that way, or might be referring to the fact that it was cut off from saulanna's soul, was just about nothing, and then BECAME something.

>>64172
It's a creature that is literally made of ourselves and Time, and at the end of the day it's a character. It's gonna have quirks, just like Wordblood, Saulanna or even Peregrin.

>Composition of Inner World

The floating cubes and such probably represent the mystical/cosmic aspects of the Time Deva. Saulanna is mortal, and firmly grounded in material aspects, and her area represents such, with the ground and grass and such. Wordblood is intriniscly linked to book-ness, so he gets a library, and a fountain i assume will later be filled with blood.

The fact that the cubes seem more intrinsicly linked to Saulanna's grassy island actually makes a fair amount of sense - the Time Deva was grown directly from us, so it would be more closely linked than, say, Wordblood, who was grafted onto our soul, like a robot arm. (No offense to wordblood - he's awesome. Just an observation)

The hero's soul's is the one that confuses me. It's grassy and rocky, like Saulanna's, to represent it's own close link but... the bridge and rock? Those kinda confuse me. I guess the rock is a monument, to represent it's connection to Luna?
>>
No. 64179 ID: 1e9d01

I would like to note that the blue thing that sent out the runic lines of energy to the new Time soul was the hero soul. The hero soul inside Saulanna added its own input to our new Feeder soul.

Now, if I am not mistaken, we were not supposed to have as much TW as we do now. Did the hero soul's input make the process less expensive than it should have been?

>a single measure to safely divide off part of your soul, another for me to copy my own feeding enhancements over, and finally 2 more to bring it all together and breathe life into the new spirit.

He used two to divide off part of Saulanna's soul and another to copy his feeding enhancements. He was about to breathe life into it when the hero soul intervened. Gentlemen, I believe we saved 2 TW. This is very interesting!
>>
No. 64180 ID: cd4189

>>64179
>He used two to divide off part of Saulanna's soul and another to copy his feeding enhancements. He was about to breathe life into it when the hero soul intervened. Gentlemen, I believe we saved 2 TW. This is very interesting!

....Son of a.....I think we just may have made a Lunar Hero based/influenced Deva.

Well. This could score us points with Luna. Potentially. We might like the idea of a Titan based off her and her champion, if we have the right goals. Maybe.

We need to know more. A lot more.
>>
No. 64181 ID: 421327

>>64179
ah, so THAT'S what's written on wordblood in that last bit: "your hero soul's react-"
>>
No. 64188 ID: cd4b01

>>64179

Oh, fffffflippity flop.

I should have know I'd forget something. Sorry, I'm afraid TW did go down to 1! I just didn't mark it as doing so. You could put it down to everything being lost track of when the new deva's creation upset everything, if you like.
>>
No. 64189 ID: ec2e47

>Why our dream-self has no Tell
That is probably because our Tell is caused by our Hero's Soul, which is sitting on that upper island over there.
>>
No. 64190 ID: cd4189

>>64189

This. A much better question would be, "Why is my Hero Soul no longer a part of me?"

It's clearly still a part of the Titan-us, but up until now there was not distinction between Saulanna and the Hero Soul in the mental plane. So what happened?
>>
No. 64191 ID: 1e9d01

>>64188
Awwww, nuts. Still, it did SOMETHING... I wonder what?
>>
No. 64192 ID: cd4189

>>/quest/474308

Except that prior to now, our Hero Soul was a part of us. It was a part of our mental avatar. It wasn't separate, it was part of Saulanna the Queen. Now it appears that it isn't. I think we have reason to be worried.

Hell, Saulanna even admits that the body she's in doesn't feel like the one she's been using. She feels more human. Our avatar is not getting the benefits of being a Lunar at the moment, it seems.
>>
No. 64194 ID: cee89f

>>64190
Actually, if you look back through the archives, there are several instances where Saulanna's (or even Wordblood's) eyes turn purple (a la our Time Deva's) and there is at least one instance where the Hero's soul manifested as a disk, a la it's current state. Specifically, the moment we absorb the soul-smith. My guess is it's separate like that now because our World-body has an actual form now.

I think we should spend a few moments trying to figure out if it's position over there is going to cause problems. I don't think it will (since technically this entire plane IS us) but it doesn't hurt to make sure.

oh, and is this plane's size accurately represented by the map we saw, or are the various areas larger than they appear?
>>
No. 64195 ID: cd4189

>>64194
>Actually, if you look back through the archives, there are several instances where Saulanna's (or even Wordblood's) eyes turn purple (a la our Time Deva's) and there is at least one instance where the Hero's soul manifested as a disk, a la it's current state. Specifically, the moment we absorb the soul-smith.

I see Saulanna's and Wordblood's eyes turning purple. I do not see the Hero Soul manifesting as a separate disc.
>>
No. 64196 ID: cee89f

>>64195
I didn't say separate - i said as a disc. To clarify, it might be separate now because we now have a genuine world-body. Technically EVERYTHING we're seeing is Saulanna - an eye and a foot are still part of the body, even though they're far apart.

Look at the island the Soul is at - it's strikingly similar to Saulanna's. Grass, rocks, a very down-to-earth look and feel. This is only really noteworthy because of the fact that Wordblood and [Time Deva] have such unique islands that embody their characters so fully, despite being a part of Saulanna as well.
>>
No. 64197 ID: ec2e47

>>64194
>>64195
We see the Hero's Soul as a disc here (>>/quest/405261), but there it is much less distinct and within our mental avatar rather than floating off to the side of it.
>>
No. 64198 ID: cee89f

I keep posting too early or in the wrong sections ><

>>>/quest/474319
"You want an opinion on how everything feels 'SO FAR'?! I've been in existence for all of.... actually, you froze time the second i was born to come in here, so I can't even measure how long i've been alive. I know I'm a deva of time, but i can't form an opinion THAT fast!"
>>
No. 64200 ID: cd4189

>>64197

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. It's shown up before, but it's been a part of Saulanna's...Lord Soul, let's say. Now it looks more like a distinct Deva. And maybe it is.
>>
No. 64203 ID: 38cd76

Someone did mention, and I think I agree. I think the hero song reacted to what ever wordblood was doing, and made the hero soul into a second new deva.

this would explain why the hero soul also has a ?.

this is pretty cool. This pleases me.
>>
No. 64204 ID: cb0cc3

Jukashi, you are excellent and Lunar Quest is excellent.

That is all.
>>
No. 64205 ID: ecfcdc

So... how come we have scenery now? I thought we would have to make that?
Does this mean there's an actual place inside of us now?
>>
No. 64208 ID: bf54a8

think the reason for the shift was, mentally, saulanna was thinking her inner world was "my mind and wordblood lives in here" so it was extremely basic.but with all these new shards each adding their influence that is no longer the case.
>>
No. 64209 ID: 9b155d

I think making a Lord Deva is an act that took us from being a Mortal with a Deva graft who Exalted into being a Titan with an Exaltation.
>>
No. 64210 ID: 17ee92

Looks like our new soul is a Time Raccoon.
>>
No. 64214 ID: cee89f

>>64210
...

I'm okay with this.

...

Though i think the more important detail is the FRIGGEN STARFIELD under it's cloak (bow-chicka-bow-wow)

>>64205
...Come to think of it, is there air now? Can Peregrin visit Wordblood and/or Time-guy?

That might be our solution - have Peregrin meet with Wordblood while we meet with our new Deva. We DID promise to teach him stuff.
>>
No. 64215 ID: 673c63

Ok we can see our devas, us and our hero soul. But what about our higher and beast souls? Are we just the higher soul, with our hero and beast souls merged into one? (Which would explain why the hero soul island looks like ours) or are we still both the higher and beast?

I wonder if our hero soul has memories from its past life?
>>
No. 64216 ID: 38cd76

I would assume that our noble and beast souls are still together in 1.

or maybe we could have crafted beast soul into becoming the landscape.

why this timee have stars under its cloak anyways? I know Creation doesn't have the same sort of astrophysics that our world does.
>>
No. 64218 ID: 63f851
File 135387268625.png - (224.19KB , 589x384 , 105206-reaction_faceSweetie_BelleThat_is_beautiful.png )
64218

Jukashi, I was expecting this update to be awesome, but I think everyone was blown away by how much damn awesome that was. The magnitude of your awesome is really, really, really radical.

Take a look at the tree and unfinished path, those might be our second-most common vote (Growth) and whatever our third vote was. Paths that might lead to future Devas? Does anyone wanna go back and tally up the votes and tell us what the third-most voted thing was?

The interaction of our Hero's Soul and the new Time soul might be influenced by the fact that Time is Change, and Moon Heroes are strongly tied into change. Or it's because it's so much a part of us that it couldn't have not interacted. Or Luna knew from the beginning and secretly did stuff to the Hero's soul because she's Luna and that's how she rolls. We should take a look at our Hero's soul and see if we can find any details about it and stuff.

Also, hello purple time! What's happenin'?
>>
No. 64219 ID: 3fc386

Cool! It would appear that Jukashi has been playing Bastion. I wonder if our new soul has a good narration voice...
>>
No. 64220 ID: cee89f
File 135388106005.jpg - (32.00KB , 554x426 , who-is-awesome.jpg )
64220

>>64218
Seconded. See image again.

Though I'd say the tree is a mental representation of part of Saulanna, rather than a part of a future Deva. Look at the islands - each is tailored to their particular deva/person. Saulanna is a simple girl who has spent most of what she remembers in the wild, on the run, which is why she has a grassy area instead of a paved road and library like Wordblood. The way we've been playing her says she has a good deal of grounding in mortal concerns (mortal morality, for instance) so her island lacks the mystical qualities of the Time Deva.

>>64219
Floating mystical islands are very common elements of many fantasy stories. I'm kind of surprised nobody seems to have caught that that's why the path to Time Deva is made of floating stones: Time is a very mystical thing, and this Deva is evidently a mystical (if flippant) being.

>>64215
I thought WE were supposed to represent her past lives =/ Second post of the first thread (before the title card, even) has Saulanna opened up to VOICES OF THE PAST and SOMETHING ELSE?????, and then it said she would obey our suggestions. For obvious reasons, Wordblood wasn't VOICES OF THE PAST, so that has to be us.

Alternatively, we're just a meta element that has no representation in the story.
>>
No. 64223 ID: cee89f

... I just had a terrifying thought.

When the Dragon's Shadow took over the Underworld, did it absorb the Neveborn's Devas?
>>
No. 64224 ID: bf54a8

in a living creature the higher and beast soul are one. beast/lower is drives, desires, higher is reasoning. the primordializing probably fused them into a gestalt soul, so they are technically both no more, all that is left is saulanna.
>>
No. 64237 ID: cd4189

D'AWWWWWWW!

Okay, a name. Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon has been thrown around, but I think that's more of a title at this point. It should be something like Wordblood. Nice and snappy.

Ouroboros? They're similar in themes, but....nah, it feels like her name should encompass her function.
>>
No. 64239 ID: 63f851

Can anyone think of a name that includes or is related to the word 'nebula'? In reference to her crazy cape.
>>
No. 64240 ID: 3fc386

>>64237
Ouroboros fits her function but it isn't really a good name.
>>
No. 64241 ID: cd4189

>>64240

Mmm. It's fitting but it's not an easy name to say with affection. It's more...solemn. I still like it, but I will definitely admit that it's not most fitting name for such a spirited Deva. Maybe if she calmed down.
>>
No. 64243 ID: 63f851

>>64240
Gonna have to second that.

So, she's really enthusiastic. Bubbly. Jubilant. And she's also got time stuff. And that infinity symbol. Also, her cloak has a nebula inside it. So that's stars and stuff. Also, she's purple.

I can't think of anything good, but that's what thesaurus's are for! And I have some really terrible bad names to kickstart you more creative types: Joyful Entropy! Star Cloak! Purple Shift! (Like red-shift or blue-shift, but both simultaneously!) Boundless Circle! Time- *Boot to the head*
>>
No. 64244 ID: 63f851

>>64240
Gonna have to second that.

So, she's really enthusiastic. Bubbly. Jubilant. And she's also got time stuff. And that infinity symbol. Also, her cloak has a nebula inside it. So that's stars and stuff. Also, she's purple.

I can't think of anything good, but that's what thesaurus's are for! And I have some really terrible bad names to kickstart you more creative types: Joyful Entropy! Star Cloak! Purple Shift! (Like red-shift or blue-shift, but both simultaneously!) Boundless Circle! Time- *Boot to the head*
>>
No. 64245 ID: cee89f

So those things Wordblood now has are actually wings seen from far away and not his hands, then.

Good to know. I was a little hazy on that when we saw the inner world from above.

Also. Wordblood: It's so good to have (wings again? family? a new tenant? Whatever he thinks when he thinks of our Time Deva?)
>>
No. 64249 ID: a21b1b

I've just realized that it's kind of a funny coincidence that our feeding soul is time-based (this thing all things devours...).
>>
No. 64251 ID: 629257

Looking into some etymology and mythology for name ideas...

Aeternitas - Latin origin of eternal and name of a roman goddess of eternity.
Apeiria - Greek root of infinity
Irsirra - Hurrian goddess of destiny
Kalika/Kali - Hindu goddess of time and change
Moira - Term for the greek fates
Norta (also Norcia, Norsia, Nercia, or Nyrtia) - An Etruscan goddess of time, fate, destiny and chance
Perenna - As in perennial, and Anna Perenna was the roman goddess of the years cycle


...Or we could name her Continua and just call her Connie.
>>
No. 64253 ID: 3734f6

I reread the quest and took some notes of interesting observations or questions or things to do:

>>58102
>"We Titans are not subject to Fate; nor is it able to withstand our power for long, without the dedicated attentions of the Maidens to adjust it to our presence. We are only slightly subject even to the fate beyond Fate, samsara: the pattern-cycle which calls that which was to become again. We are the creators and the deciders."

Conclusion: I am pretty sure this means that the agents of fate will find out our titanic nature simply by sensing the changes we bring upon reality as being non-fated.

>>/questarch/207447
Hell = prison for crippled titans
Underworld = place where dead are sucked into created by titan corpse parts ripping through reality. Later conquered by dragon of shadow
Labyrinth = place underneath underworld and underneath deadlands (literally digging down in deadlands reaches labyrinth). Contains the "corpse" parts of the titans which were killed which are forever being tortured with near death.

Conclusion: The labyrinth sounds like a perfect place for saulanna to find titan shards to consume.

>>/questarch/400744
I am curious about the ruins. Need more investigation when have time

>>/questarch/420915
TODO: Ask paragrin who the ex heroes are.

The ability to create books instantly with knowledge we possess sounds rather useful. Especially because it means not bothering with the long tedious process of getting scribes to make copies (we could literally eat and recreate the entire libraries in moments; not to mention we could creature unique books to give people for specific purposes).

What wordblood said about the dragon heroes... seems to be that they are the descendants of Gaia's lordly souls given flesh outside her body who then had children with mortals?

Also, dragon shadow and red sun used to be married? Was she a titan too before the process in which ebon shadow forged her into the red sun and transformed into the dragon shadow?

What is Calibration?

>how every living thing has a small fraction of Gaia in it
Does that mean saullana still has such a link to gaia through her ex-mortal component?
>>
No. 64254 ID: a21b1b

>>64253
Calibration is the five-day period at the end of and outside of the calendar year, when all sorts of metaphysical shenanigans can happen.
>>
No. 64255 ID: b6edd6

>Conclusion: The labyrinth sounds like a perfect place for saulanna to find titan shards to consume.
I don't think that would work until we are significantly more powerful, because (IIRC) the labyrinth was created to keep titans in, and was described by Peregrine as a one-way trip (presumably for just about anyone).
>>
No. 64257 ID: 63f851

So back in the main thread, are we brainstorming (something I thought the discussion thread was for) or are we voting on names yet?

...There's probably a really good joke about how all our Lord Deva's are gonna have really... something names and we're still gonna be Saulanna Ricanya Rockblossm. I can't think that much this late though, so someone else's gonna have to put that together plz. zzzz...
>>
No. 64258 ID: 3fc386

Aww man, I used my suggestion too soon... what happens if you delete a post that someone has linked to?

I like the 2 word names but while I have a lot of words I can't get them to stick together nicely...
Flow, march, pace: she is going to be helping us channel our energy plus they're decent verbs for time.
Epoch, dawn: she is our first step towards our titanic potential.
Warp, rise, shift, grow, flower: anything signifying evolution, advancement or change fits her theme.
>>
No. 64259 ID: 70c0f2

>are we brainstorming or are we voting on names?
Uh, both at the same time, I think. That's typically how character creation works. People throw out names, and offer support and/or disapproval for other names they like or don't.

I know the large-ish number of suggesters in this quest along with the sluggish update schedule necessitates a stricter adherence to quest / dis separation than many other quests, but I'm pretty sure this is a time where brainstorming and some discussion in the main thread is okay. I mean, c'mon, it's name preference. That's pretty subjective, after all!

>what happens if you delete a post that someone has linked to?
The link stops going anywhere.
>>
No. 64260 ID: 3734f6

>>64255
that's hell, the labyrinth was created by accident, naturally, from titan corpse fragments according to what he said.

I totally agree that we are not nearly powerful enough to go there yet. But out of the 3 locations where we are liable to find them (hell, underworld, and labyrinth) it sounds like the least dangerous one to go to.
>>
No. 64261 ID: 406926

>>64257
>...There's probably a really good joke about how all our Lord Deva's are gonna have really... something names and we're still gonna be Saulanna Ricanya Rockblossm.

I wouldn't actually be opposed to naming all our devas multiple names which are horrible but functional mash-ups of our wild suggestions. It's amusing and harmless.
>>
No. 64262 ID: 9b155d

>>64253
>Conclusion: I am pretty sure this means that the agents of fate will find out our titanic nature simply by sensing the changes we bring upon reality as being non-fated.

There are more things then just Titans that aren't subject to Fate, and given the Wyld taint on Lunars, I think there are some of them that are outside fate too(I'd need to go through all their charms and the Chimera* charms to find out). If we started mucking about in Creation, anyone noticing what we've done through Fate would probably be more likely to assume Chimera. Or that we nabbed an artifact that puts us outside Fate.

*As a note in normal Exalted someone who's on the very verge of being a Chimera but isn't one can learn Chimera charms.
>>
No. 64264 ID: 2ae746

>>64262
if we want to be careful, we could find one of those artifacts. They will see that we have it, and question or beyond-fateness no further.
>>
No. 64266 ID: 9b155d

>>64264
Problem is the only example of that sort of Artifact in the tabletop game were possessed primarily by Siderals and are examples of First Age Magitech, though I don't doubt that some dark copies of them exist in the Underworld. They might be more common then an Exalt who's also a Titan, but they're not the easiest thing to get. Assuming of course that one of the kingdoms that the normal Solars started in the Age of Strife didn't start mass producing them or something similar as a big fuck you to the Siderals.

Oh, and it might be assumed we're an Akuma if we're outside Fate too. Especially if we're pulling off Primordial tricks. A Lunar Akuma is also more common then a Lunar Titan.
>>
No. 64267 ID: 38cd76

I vote we start seeking to learn some chimera charms.

That is all.
>>
No. 64268 ID: 9b155d

>>64267
Not sure that's feasible. Chimera charms are things of the Wyld, which being a Titan is the antithesis of. We might be slightly vulnerable to our taint at the moment*, so maybe we could hit that mid point between Chimera and Lunar, but that's risky and we have no IC reason to go for it. I expect it would upset Wordblood as well.


*From Wordblood
>Even now, my presence will help you resist the effect, and with more souls to reinforce your identity, it should stop affecting you entirely
>>
No. 64271 ID: 3734f6

I bet we could even remove the wyld taint from the exaltation spirit if we wanted to.
This raises the question. Do we want to?
>>
No. 64273 ID: 9718f3

>>64259
There's a post-per-update limit for a reason. It is a recent thing. I am dismayed that it has taken so short a time to be violated.
>>
No. 64277 ID: 3734f6

Since we were told that lordly devas who share an element would consume each other no matter what even if they don't want to, we are thus limited to using each element only once. Some of said elements are really awesome though and can have multiple purposes. I suggest we start planning ahead then. Its better to assign the second best choice (say, 9/10 quality for that task rather than 10/10) of element to a task if that means another task doesn't get stuck with a very poor element (say, 2/10 quality rather then 10/10).

I am not quite sure though what kind of components a titan needs. This also seems to vary greatly based on what the titan is like. Gaia for example supposedly has only 7 lordly souls yet is one of the most powerful titans and their elements are fire, water, air, earth, wood, time, and ? (The dragon Aa... I don't know of what.. i bet life) if I recall correctly from what we were told in quest thus far (I have no OOC knowledge). The fact she makes due with fewer lords suggests that each lord performs more tasks.

So anyways, we currently have:
0. Queen (unknown/none?), self. A mostly human soul... no element? (or maybe unknown). Perhaps we can/should expand/upgrade it?
1. Aide (Words), wordblood. Formerly A Titan Fragment of He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word
2. Feeding (Time), Scavenger of Ages.
?. Lunar Exaltation (?) - this might or might not count as a deva. And if it does, we might or might not be able to alter it. Which might or might not alert Luna if we attempt to do so.

Ideas (both good and bad) for lordly devas (ideas from quest and my own ideas):
Combat - I think the lunar exaltations could be repurposed as this (if it didn't already). Should offense and defense be separate or nobles under combat?
Healing - Healing is always useful, in and out of combat. Alone, in group, of people and lands. Could be a noble under combat as well. Repair might fall under healing as well.
Magic - is this even a legitimate one to have or is magic everything anyways? Also can fall under combat.
Creation - mentioned in quest... what exactly are we going to create? Forge magic items? Create living beings?
Social
Seeing - Using element Knowledge/Truth, explicitly suggested by wordblood.
Maternal/Nurturing - mentioned in quest, I don't see the benefit it could provide. Can someone explain?
Feeding (additional) - probably a bad idea. Sharing a purpose usually causes internal war, but not necessarily if the elements are both "laid back" type. Can make us "weird" to have multiples of same type.

Notes from quest about elements:
Logic/Rationality is too specific, would be a noble under a lord of Order / Thought (neither of which wordblood recommends we make)
Thought is too specific, would be a noble. Used to be an underling of wordblood who intends to recreate it
light/dark = very powerful and useful both, but either will step on many very powerful toes.
Civilization - opposed to hero soul
Will - very powerful, beyond us to create ATM, difficult to control.
Self/Identity/unity - suitable for protection, risk of asserting itself over queen.
Love/Compassion/Bonds/Connections - very powerful, ideal for social.
Desire - difficult to control (cannot be satisfied)
Growth - very powerful and useful, but difficult to contain like desire.
Knowledge/Truth - Good for seeing deva.
Strife - troublemaker
Balance - not necessarily a good thing. Will produce a very passive and inactive deva. How would it work for combat?
Rebirth - suited for healing.
Death - very strongly warned against.
Life - suitable for healing/creating. Gaia probably wouldn't mind so no toes stepped on.

Based on the above more concise list I am thus far partial to using the elements of:
Knowledge - Seeing Lady. Has truth as noble.
Life - Creation/healing
Rebirth Element - Healing Lady; not quite sure. Maybe love/compassion is a better choice?
Growth - Combat or magic or social even.
Love/Compassion/Bonds/Connections - Social or healing. Are they close enough to cause merging? if not then use one of social and one for healing.
Will - Only if it can be added to queen?
>>
No. 64278 ID: cee89f

>Conclusion: I am pretty sure this means that the agents of fate will find out our titanic nature simply by sensing the changes we bring upon reality as being non-fated.

Heroes can already screw with Fate =p The Sidereals' purpose is to make sure Fate doesn't get too screwed up by all the Exalts, Gods, etc etc.

>>64271
Is that really what we should be focusing on while our daughter is asking for a name and a trio of heroes are on the outside trying to influence us?
>>
No. 64279 ID: 70c0f2

>>64277
Dark, desire and death would all be risky and/or poor choices, as they are elements currently held by devas of the dragon's shadow. See >>59000

You're restating criticism Wordblood gave of certain elements. However, that criticism was in the context of a feeder purpose- it may not necessarily hold for others. For instance- a feeder of growth might have been insatiable and hard to control, but something else of growth? Not necessarily so.

Also, somewhere up before the discussion turned into unreadable gobbledygook, we had some more brainstorming of elements. We thought Masks was actually kind of cool.
>>
No. 64280 ID: 3734f6

>>64278
>Is that really what we should be focusing on
No, which is why I raised it in questdis. This is a "long term" kinda thing.
>>
No. 64281 ID: 3734f6

>>64279
>Dark, desire and death would all be risky and/or poor choices
That is what I said.
>restating criticism in the context of a feeder purpose
I am aware. I tried to account for that while also being concise.
For example, I think growth is suitable for almost everything. In combat we run the same risk as with feeding. But might be worth the effort to have ever growing combat capacity (rather then growing desire for combat). Would refinement be available?
For social actually the risks might not be worth it. I imagine control would not be as big a deal in terms of healing and creation and seeing (although seeing is best for knowledge). Everything is dangerous if it becomes a compulsion of course.

Everything is still very preliminary until we examine the exaltation and until we decide on which lordly devas we want. Only then do we really get into assigning elements to various tasks.

>masks
That is a nice one. And hey, I forgot to list stealth as a suitable primary soul. So a good match.
>>
No. 64282 ID: 629257

Just wanted to point some things out here... the words in Wordblood seemed more telling than usual.

>>/questarch/474216
>Hopefully we'll be some(what) more stable than we are now
...We were unstable? How?

>>/questarch/474217
>Your hero soul is reacting to the deva
This was more obvious to see, but I'm concerned as to what it means for us.

I guess we'll be figuring out what happened there soon enough, but lets not forget to ask. Also, Peregrins mark was glowing rather brightly through that ordeal, and I can't think of a reason for that to happen. Feedback from us? Hope his other boss wasn't screwing around.

>>64281
The very function of an element would change according to its purpose. Growth as combat might end up being literal size increases.
>ROCKBLOSSOM SMASH!
>>
No. 64283 ID: cee89f

I really don't like the name 'Ahm'. I REALLY don't. 'I am Ahm' sounds awkward at best, and it's nowhere near mystical or flowery enough for a creature that's going to literally be an embodiment of time at the top of the spiritual food chain.
>>
No. 64284 ID: 70c0f2

>>64283
No, you just got the cadence wrong. It's not "I am", it's

I, Am.
>>
No. 64286 ID: cee89f

>>64284
1) "I, Ahm, am" and/or "It is I, Ahm" sounds even more awkward with the added bonus of being awkward to USE.
2) That's not how people casually introduce themselves, that's how people start off legal statements. "I, Ahm, being of sound mind do hereby bequeath..." or "I, Ahm, decree that Time shall be represented visually by starfields!"

Can we at least make it Ohm?
>>
No. 64287 ID: ed6439

>>64286

I think you're worried too much about the name sounding properly mystical. I think it's more important that the name speak for itself.

The big problem I have with a lot of names, even the ones I like, is that they don't immediately declare the Titan's function. Wordblood. He's about words, we get that right there. There's additional meaning when you look deeper.

I'm not a fan of Ahm or Ohm because they're bastardizations of the original meaning. A derivation of a derivation. It's not something I'd like to speak for our Titan.

Am, however, is easily known. People know how to use am. It's a familiar word. It's even got a nice bit of fridge logic for those who think about it deeper.

Time is so vast that narrowing it down to a single aspect, like stars or fate or something, seems to diminish the original element. Even names like continua are bastardizations of the original words.

It feels more primordial if it's defined by the original concepts, at least in the spoken language. Timelord. There would be one. Am. Deceptive simplicity.

Or....Timedevourer. That can also be a good definition of what she does.

Hmm, maybe I should go post some of these.
>>
No. 64288 ID: bf54a8

>>64282
we were unstable because we had only a single deva, like trying to use a tank by yourself. you need a driver AND a gunner to make proper use of it. with another deva in here we can do more things at once, like moving and shooting at the same time instead of just picking.
>>
No. 64289 ID: cee89f

>>64287
No, I'm worried because 'Am' and even 'Ahm' sounds, looks and feels ridiculous when you try to use it in context, especially to refer to yourself, and DEFINITELY when you pick it specifically to link back to 'I am!'

Why? Because 'am' is the word people use to say 'this is my name' I am Namehere. I am Saulanna, I am Wordblood, I am David. I am Am, though? Really?

If we HAVE to link back to it's first words, can we pick Amelia or Amai something?

>Timelord
Let's go with that. Or Starcloak or something.

>Diminishes the meaning
I disagree - it's just a name, how we'll refer to the Deva. Calling it 'Starcloak' would refer to the... well, cloak of stars. Continua refers to contiuum, an aspect of time. Neither one of those names, however, are going to change that the purpose of the Deva is to feed using Time.

Example: Wordblood. He's still an Aide of communication, even if his name has 'blood' in it.
>>
No. 64290 ID: 70c0f2

>"I am Am" problems
That's why she's obviously never going to introduce herself with that exact construction, instead opting to use bad jokes and deliberate Who's on First style confusion-introductions.

It's not as if she's going to have much occasion to introduce herself anyways though, living inside our own private world. (Although, that said, we need to put the ability to externally manifest Devas on the to-do list. Throwing Time at people will be hilarious).
>>
No. 64291 ID: cee89f

>>64290
Naming someone specifically so that they can be confusing and annoying, without regards to their personal beliefs on whether or not making jokes like that would be worth it. What a GREAT idea.

Especially since Am sounds so great in every OTHER possible context. Like "Am's over there", "Am's sure of herself", "Send Am to bed" or "Am is funny". I mean it's not like i just picked one as an example and was genuinely worried because there were MULTIPLE ways it could sound awkward. That would be stupid.

Sarcasm aside, it's just confusing and dumb.
>>
No. 64292 ID: 9b155d

>>64291
None of those sound even slightly awkward to me as long as I'm aware there's someone named Am. Context is important.

>>64289
I dislike things like Starcloak or Timelord because while names like Wordblood are obviously okay for Devas, she was born part of someone who's more human in nature. It feels insulting to give her a name that sounds more like a title or a part of a title to me. Moreover, the names tie into either her function or her appearance. Am may have a double meaning of Time, but it plays into her excitement over existing as well as what appears to be a more playful nature.

Frankly, any name that very bluntly refers to her function or appearance I outright hate as a name for our newly born Deva.
>>
No. 64293 ID: c59939
Audio ahm_pronounciation.mp3 - (41.63KB , ahm pronounciation.mp3 )
64293

Am I the only one who has been pronouncing the name like this the whole time?

I assumed this was how it pronounced, which is why I suggested spelling it "Ahm" instead, so it'd be visually distinctive from 'am'.
>>
No. 64294 ID: 9b155d

Clearly several people forgot the 2 post, but 1 preferred, maximum. Want to argue about the name, do it here instead of the main thread.

>>64293
Visually and audibly distinctive are a bit different.
>>
No. 64295 ID: c59939

>>64294
So, you disagree with me that in the audio clip I used, that the two words sound different?
>>
No. 64296 ID: 9b155d

>>64295
No, I can tell the difference. It's just suggesting to spell it different as well as pronounce it differently is, well, not the same as just being visually distinctive. It's in fact using a completely different word.
>>
No. 64298 ID: cee89f

>A lot of other people don't have a problem with it. Do you really want to be That Guy who actively tries to keep other people from having fun?

No, don't try to play that card. You're not trying to have fun with this name. You're not making a joke. You are SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING naming the thing 'Am'. I am perfectly entitled to tell you 'this is not a good idea.' Because it's NOT.

Also, I think that's like the fifth or sixth post you've made since the last update, and it could've DEFINITELY gone here instead. Slow down.

>Am as a part of a name

I'm okay with 'Am' as PART of a name, just not the name itself. It makes NO sense to just have 'Am' be a name.

Really, it doesn't.

>>64294
In my case, i forgot about my long name list.
>>
No. 64299 ID: 9b155d

>It makes NO sense to just have 'Am' be a name.
>Really, it doesn't.
I'm being pedantic here, but it does make sense, in the same way as calling her "Timelord" or "Starcloak" makes sense even as much as I hate the latter two names. You don't like it and find it awkward, but stating your dislike as if it's a fundamental fact isn't the sort of thing that will convince those who like it to drop their support of it. You come up with something that is fitting without sounding like two words shoved together or a mere description of her purpose/element/appearance, and I'll probably drop my support of Am.

And on a somewhat related note, I have a friend who goes by the Am. His full first name is Amaram. I've never seen anyone get confused by anyone calling him Am.
>>
No. 64300 ID: ed6439

>>64298
>No, don't try to play that card. You're not trying to have fun with this name. You're not making a joke. You are SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING naming the thing 'Am'. I am perfectly entitled to tell you 'this is not a good idea.' Because it's NOT.

Having fun=/ telling jokes.

Yes, I am seriously considering Am as a name. So are other people. We don't think it's a bad name, we think it's a good one. We are HAVING FUN because we enjoy the idea.

You, on the other hand, are just complaining and ranting and trying to bring everyone down. You're trying to dissuade them from having fun because you think it's stupid. But people can hold different opinions.

Even if you disagree, you are by far the rudest person in this entire discussion. No one else has lambasted and directly insulted other people over the names. Only you.

>Also, I think that's like the fifth or sixth post you've made since the last update, and it could've DEFINITELY gone here instead. Slow down.

I wouldn't be posting over there at all, but clearly most people want to do discussion over it there. So I'm not as strict about it. YOU popped over there just to rant at people, so it's clearly not the principle of the act. Either that or it is, and you just don't want to implicate yourself too. Your protestation seems to be the degree.

And....well, to each his own. I'll try and stay away for it more, but I don't feel like being the "Stop having fun" guy to others, and joining in myself.
>>
No. 64301 ID: cee89f

>>64299
Except 'Am' is not his name. It's his nickname.

"Timelord" and "Starcloak" can at least be taken as nouns.

Violet? Hurit? (Means "beautiful") Halona? (of happy fortune)? Davidsadick? HalfTangibleisadick? I will take anything over Am. Literally. ANYTHING.

Begging here.
>>
No. 64302 ID: ed6439

Actually, I owe HalfTangible an apology. He did not directly insult someone over the names, he just called the name Am itself dumb. Repeatedly, in various manners.

So I apologize for accusing you of insulting other people. I was in the wrong here.
>>
No. 64303 ID: 9b155d

>>64301
It's the name everyone uses for him, including his family.(Well, except his kids, who call him dad) And Am is a noun in Irish Gaelic, which is the intended origin of the word in this case.

Anyway, I'm not trying to hold it over your head as a threat or anything, so begging really won't work. I feel it's the only tolerable name suggested thus far and if I see something that I actually like or is preferable I'd support it.
>>
No. 64304 ID: c59939

>>64296
I assumed that was how you pronounced the name Am, and really only suggested the different spelling because some people are throwing a fit over the name.

Especially with the initial suggester mentioning how Am is gaelic for time. And as best I can tell, you would pronounce that gaelic word like I did in the sound clip.

If I was wrong, and you're supposed to pronounce it like the word 'am', I'm still fine with it, but I wasn't trying to suggest a completely different name, just a different way to spell the same name, like Katherine vs Catherine or Dylan vs Dillon.
>>
No. 64305 ID: cee89f

>And....well, to each his own. I'll try and stay away for it more, but I don't feel like being the "Stop having fun" guy to others, and joining in myself.

Having fun and being silly are two different things.

To be clear: I didn't mean to imply I was going to complain about it from now until the end of the quest if she does get named Am. Just that I REALLY don't want her to be named Am.

How about Amelia?

>>64302
Eh, don't worry about it. Right or wrong, it got me to stop and calm down for a second.

Let me try this again, sans angry ranting. Problems:
1) Calm or angry, it's still a dumb name. Sure, it fits with what she's said so far, but it doesn't really tie into who she actually is. This Deva seems less 'mystic of time' and more 'bubbly daughter'.

2) The whole purpose of naming her 'Am' seems to be to have a fun and/or confusing way of introducing herself. The problem is that once that is done, the name serves only one purpose: to refer directly to a person. Who's on first works because it never gets into Abbot's head that 'who' is a name. Once he did, it would just get confusing to refer to him, like it was for Costello. 'Am' doesn't work as a name for the simple reason that it's also a verb in the English language, specifically one already used in conjunction with names.

3) Visual distinctiveness. Or lack thereof. Need I say more?

4) Her name is entirely for the sake of a joke. Not only will the joke get old if she does it every time we try to talk to her (or even just every time she introduces herself) this feels a lot like naming your kid 'Kickme'.
>>
No. 64306 ID: ed6439

>>64305

I'm glad to hear we can continue to be civil, though my apology stands.

1. But we've only seen bubbly daughter so far, plus a bit of being TIme. I think something like Am has deceptive meaning, extra layers.

2. But once people know the name, they can start to figure it out. It's a little joke that states what she is, yet still manages to take people off guard. Cute, but deep.

3. I think it's distinctive by virtue of being so short. In a world with long descriptive names, she has two letters to hers. SHe is a grand Time Deva, shouldn't it be equally grand?

Then fridge logic kicks in and you realize that no name can properly describe her. Am is the only one broad enough that comes close.

4. But it's not only for the sake of a joke. YOU see it as only a joke, but other people attribute deeper meaning to it. We're not doing it for laughs, we truly think it's appropriate.
>>
No. 64307 ID: 9b155d

>>64304
What little I know of Gaelic suggests trying to pin down proper pronunciation can be something of a fool's errand. Regional dialects, Scottish influence, and disuse mean there's less words in Gaelic with one pronunciation then there are with more.
>>
No. 64308 ID: cee89f

>>64306
1) Not really, Am doesn't have any real meaning by itself at all, let alone a deceptive one. It's the verb 'To be' conjugated into the first-person. But by itself it doesn't really mean anything.

2) ...You really don't see how this could get annoying? At all? >.> It's not really cute, either. 'Am' is used way too often to sound 'cute'.

3) Except that 'Am' is a very commonly used word even in Exalted. Sure, it's more common to have a long, flowery name, but that doesn't make it distinctive for the simple reason that other names isn't the only thing the word is competing against.

4) I might've missed something. Care to explain how this would be 'appropriate for her'? Because so far the only point I can see is the whole 'whos on first' bit.

>>64303
Does the family mainly communicate in English? Because that's the main reason it's confusing, ya know.
>>
No. 64310 ID: c59939

>>64307
Eh. Either way, the point was I wan't trying to change the suggestion, just to give a different way to spell it so people who were whining about it would have less to whine about.

I no longer care about this. I'm going to go change my suggestion so it's just Am
>>
No. 64312 ID: 3734f6

So, if Am is so bad then what about Io, Ao, and Aa (Aa for example is one of Gaia's 7 lordly devas).

Also, who exactly is Am going to be introduced to? AFAIK Gaia's dragons are the only lordly devas currently being manifest outside their host (must have something to do with her being the world itself, literally). Unless we turn ourselves inside out then we are unlikely to ever physically manifest them.

>>64293
I have also pronounced it that way exactly.
>>64291
I just said each of those outloud and it sounded perfectly find.
>>
No. 64313 ID: ed6439

>>64308

1. Exactly. To be. She is. Like, "I think therefore I am." She EXISTS. Time is something that just IS. So is she.

2. Sure, but I think she'll have fun with it. It's like a tongue twister.

3. The word is used, but it's just to connect other words. As a name, it's probably pretty unique. Time is like that. It happens all over the place without people really noticing. Just like how the word Am keeps popping up. I like it.

4. See above.
>>
No. 64314 ID: 9b155d

>>64308
Yeah, they speak english. As common as Am is used, it's use as a name doesn't really conflict with it's use as a verb. It's pretty clear in context. Now, adjectives and pronouns as names? Those are a bitch.

Also, remember Am means Time in Gaelic, so there is another layer of meaning to it there beyond her general excitement at being and her ability to make jokes about it.
>>
No. 64316 ID: 2be9cf

Am isn't even actually used that often, it's a very specific irregular form. If we were trying to name someone Is there might be a leg to stand on here.
>>
No. 64317 ID: 5bf190

Not sure what to think about "Am". On the one hand, I kind of like it? But I see the problems as well.

Also, in Exalted, during the First Age, the internet was a world-spanning artificial multi-entity whose name was "I AM". So that element of it has sort of been done.
>>
No. 64320 ID: cee89f

... I owe ya'll an apology. I'll admit, when I calmed down I started to see why people like Am for a name, and I'm sorry for implying it was nothing more than a stupid joke and stating my opinion as fact.

I still think it's a dumb name, though >.>

>>64313

1. But we still give things that just are actual NAMES so we can refer to them easily. Naming her 'Am' just makes it HARDER to refer to her. The fact that she is doesn't really tell us anything: okay, she is. So is grass, water, dog shit. You wanna call a time manipulating masked horned humanoid thing something you can also use to refer to dog shit? Cuz I don't.

2. You don't give someone a TONGUE TWISTER for a NAME. =p And even if you could argue that it's okay to give someone a name so that it could be used in a tongue twister, it STILL feels like you're naming her 'Kickme'.

3. Specifically, NAMES. So it will be CONFUSING.

4. That's not really a deep meaning. Something that 'is' is just... is. There's nothing else to it. 'She is what is' feels more like a Matter deva, for one thing, and sounds pseudo-philosophic instead of regular philosophic. It's like naming her 'This thing exists'

>>64312

Wordblood has confirmed that Devas can be manifested outside of the form of the Titan that they're a part of - we're just not powerful enough to do so yet.

>>64312

The point is that 'Am' is an actual WORD. A word that is already used in conjunction with names. So it's CONFUSING AND WEIRD. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT IT'S TOO SHORT =P IF I EVER SAID THAT, PLEASE SLAP ME.

>>64314

Weren't you the guy who objected to 'Timelord' on the basis that it shoved her element into her name?

>>64317

Could we just have 'Am' be her nickname and come up with something else for the main part of her name?

I kinda like Amelia
>>
No. 64321 ID: f95d9a

I'm not too fond of the name Am. It's just not very appealing.

How bout Eternity? It's simple, elegant, and descriptive.
>>
No. 64322 ID: 9b155d

>>64317
I'd considered the connection to I AM before, but thinking on it... That sounds like an even better reason for the name to me. It may not be as unique in that sense, but I AM was cool.

For those unfamiliar with this bit of Exalted, he wasn't some murderous AI or anything.
>I AM was a First Age synthetic intelligence, capable of free will and independent thought, and further capable of massively multiplexed intelligence, allowing it to simultaneously converse with and contemplate almost the entire population of the world simultaneously. It served as a communications network as well as a companion to most of the world, serving as a middleman for cashless banking and commerce, and a personal companion and friend to most of the mortals of the High First Age during its heyday.
>>
No. 64324 ID: 9b155d

>>64320
>Weren't you the guy who objected to 'Timelord' on the basis that it shoved her element into her name?

I'm the guy against Timelord because it's explicitly what she is and is two words shoved together as well as a Title. Am has some subtlety regarding it's reference to her nature, which is why I don't mind it as much. I'm also the guy who has been referring to Am as the most tolerable choice from my point of view. Same deal with Kairos, but that sounds too masculine to me and the attempts to just add an a to the end sound silly.
>>
No. 64325 ID: feae6d

>>64317
Shucks... Also, would the coincidentally similar naming potentially grant our deva a path/predaliction toward becoming a world spanning information network that happens to feed off a portion of the information it collects/stores/generates? Not exactly what I had in mind originally, but given its first words were "I've changed, therefore I am" I think it becoming a rapidly evolving information entity kinda fits.

Anyway, any thoughts of giving our deva a surname relating to saulanna (and/or wordsblood) as her progenitor? Rockblossom, d'Saulanna...ok, not really feeling creative right now, but you get the point.
>>
No. 64326 ID: cee89f

>>64324

She's also "Time" incarnate and one of the Pluses cited for "Am" was that it meant "Time" in... Gaelic? Just saying, it's kinda weird.

Sometimes you need to take off before you add. How about Kaira?

My personal favorite at the moment is Amelia, with 'Am' being a nickname. It lets us keep the deep meaning of 'Am' but also gives us something less confusing to refer to her with if need be.

Of ones that others have suggested...
>Eternity
I like this one too. Simple, elegant, encompasses the Time element nicely... And it's not a verb that could be said every time she introduces herself.
>>
No. 64327 ID: 246eed

just thought I'd drop by and say that the fuckwads who are too fuckwadded to use the discussion thread are singlehandedly ruining this entire quest for me. again.

it's just like those cave paintings of those prehistoric subhumans bringing down great mammoths through sheer numbers.
>>
No. 64329 ID: 63f851

>>64317
With all due respect, Jukashi, YOU don't get to decide if you like the name or not, that's our new friend's decision.

...

Hey look, a muffin! *Flees*

Also, if the Internet's dead, then we'll just have to make a new one. Eventually.
>>
No. 64331 ID: 38cd76

>>64326
>Eternity
>I like this one too. Simple, elegant, encompasses the Time element nicely... And it's not a verb that could be said every time she introduces herself.

I just wish I'd thought of it earlier. I think we're going to be swarmed out under all the people voting "am".


I think the biggest problem I have with Am is that it's so... not specific to Time. Basically any birthing of Deity typically starts with the phrase "I AM", which our new friend did. Which caused people to latch on to.

Am has more to do with just Existing than it does with Time, which has more to do with shifting or with change.

In theory, one can exist outside of time.


Which is why I like Eternity better. It has similar connotations to Ouroboros without sounding horrible, and being much more direct.

It's much closer to the purposen name that wordblood has, while still having a unique character of its own.

And it really accurately works for the concept of TIME, stretching in both directions without ceasing. And is really a good name for a SCAVENGER of time, who would eat the tailigns without disturbing the flow at all.

It's a good name.
>>
No. 64332 ID: cee89f

>>64327
First of all, bringing down mammoths by leaping on them is awesome.

Secondly, calling people 'fuckwads' makes you sound like an idiot we shouldn't be listening to, especially when there was an asshole ranting about how much the name 'Am' sucked not ten posts before yours, and THAT should've made things much worse for you. I'm going to watch Atop the Fourth Wall and try to forget that you said ANYTHING.

>>64329
I'm gonna go ahead and assume you're talking about the old addage (is that the word?) where a Writer is "not a person, but many different characters trying to be one person"

You DO have to plan and write a character for a little while before they become their own voice in your head, ya know. They don't usually start out as fully fledged personalities that make petulant demands on the story until AFTER you've written them for a while, and Jukashi's written all of two scenes with this character. So Jukashi is still going to be calling most of the shots.
>>
No. 64333 ID: ed6439

I don't really like Eternity because....well....it's to SIMPLE. There's no depth to it. There's a straight interpretation and that's it. No extra thought.

I'd like her name to be at least slightly clever with double or hidden meaning, something that people haven't seen before. Or much of before.
>>
No. 64335 ID: 9b155d

>>64327
>it's just like those cave paintings of those prehistoric subhumans bringing down great mammoths through sheer numbers.

Are you calling yourself fat?

>>64326
>Just saying, it's kinda weird.
Eh, it's a matter of subtlety. It's like... If we had a Deva of Peace, I'd be okay with the name Jeffrey which means God's Peace. I would take issue with the names HugLord/Tranquility, as those are very explicitly descriptions of the element/titles. A name that if you look deeper has a meaning related to the bearer shows thought. Simply using the thing as the name shows none, and to me comes off as demeaning.
>>
No. 64336 ID: 2eac65

I picked the best time to catch up. Our new soul is so adorable!

>>64317
I don't think that "Am" is very fitting to her individually. It just sounds awkward. It seems clever now, but it'll get annoying before too long.
>>
No. 64337 ID: 38cd76

>>64336
I very much agree. Hear Hear!


>>64335

I actually really like how explicit names like Eternity would be. Plus, it just has a classy feel. Plus, I can just really see Saulana's Time Deva being called Eternity.

I would be willing to add my vote to the Kairosa people if needs be though.

Just because it isn't Am. And it still sounds nice, even if it isn't explicit.
>>
No. 64339 ID: cee89f

>>64335

I get why HugLord bothers you (it's stupid) but I don't get what would be wrong with Tranquil =/ (for me 'Tranquility' feels off just because of the -ity at the end but that doesn't seem to be your point)

Timelord didn't feel like it was just two words shoved together to me - i thought it was a reference to the Doctor Who race of the same name. The Doctor (the main time lord we see) is generally goofy, happy and takes the universe in stride, excited by just about everything. Admittedly HOW goofy/happy he is depends on the regeneration (long story) but generally they're fun loving. In New Who, anyway. I haven't seen Classic.

>>64333
Understandable

If Amelia's not getting any love, I'll also go with Kairosa.
>>
No. 64340 ID: f2c20c

I think Eternity is just too... obvious. Oh, it's a being related to time, let's name it something that literally means time! That's not a good way to come up with a name, in my opinion. It's like naming a plant-themed Deva Leaf.

Am is at least made more obscure by meaning time in a far less-used language, but it's just so short, is already another commonly-used word, and feels like we're grabbing onto the first notable thing about the Deva instead of looking at her as a whole.

In my opinion, a name that has more relation to her exuberance (rather than just her statement of existence) as well as relating to time would be better, if we go for anything with a meaning at all. We could just give her a neat-sounding name.

I'll try to come up with some more meaningful names in the main thread...
>>
No. 64341 ID: 63f851

>>64332
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-uFxSnWeOs&feature=plcp
>My reaction.
In other news, maybe it'd be better to give her a choice of multiple names, and whichever one ends up sticking the most in the future will naturally end up just being her name.
>>
No. 64342 ID: 2eac65

>>64337
>Eternity
I dislike that for different reasons. It means a span of time without end, but our soul's purpose is to consume; that doesn't quite fit. Plus, it's a bit too imposing and not cute; it lacks versatility.

I'm... not really surprised no one got the reference I was making with Ohara. It was a pretty obscure one. You've probably heard of it, though.
>>
No. 64343 ID: 9b155d

>>64339
Time Lord is a title, and she explicitly says while she's fine with more Titles, she wants a name. To try and give her a name that's a title after she says that is quite possibly the most insulting thing I can think of to do in that situation.
>>
No. 64344 ID: b978d0

Been thinking about this on and off all day.

I do like the <Concept><Thing> construct that is used in Wordbloods name, and as such I've come up with some ideas along those lines.

<Concept>
Infinite or Eternal - either link well to her temporal nature and the infinite span of space glimpsed through her inner cloak.

<Thing>
Delta - This one has multiple meanings. In mathematics it's used to denote change, which she seems to resonate with in both her initial statement and her energetic personality. It also has the meaning of an island in the mouth of a river, which is symbolic of her position as the deva that gates our ingestion of spiritual energies.

When combined you get either:
Infinitedelta - which would hint at infinite complexity. In conjunction with the mathematic definition of delta, you would get infinite change. With the physical definition of delta, the imagery of a complex network of waterways flowing through a porous island.

Eternaldelta - which would hint that the changes she makes are everlasting, while also suggesting her mastery over the river of time as an island that will never erode.

Personally, I like what Eternaldelta would suggest more than that of Infinitedelta.
>>
No. 64345 ID: 38cd76

>>64344
There's an idea. I like the <concept><thing> format.

Not sure I'm big on Delta. Lets think. Wordblood has blood, which is only tenuously connected to words. Maybe something along how blood flows and permeates things, and gives life.

He gets a fountain in his domain, which again implies some sort of flowing stream.

The New Deva has some sort of... astrological globe. She's also composed of stars instead of a torso.

Potential concepts:
Time
Eternal/Eternity
Infinite
Age
Destiny
Fate
Moment
Pace
Continuum/Continuous

Things
Stream
Star/Stars
Age/Ages
Mask (She has a mask, come on!)
Sphere
Cosmos
Aeon
Fate
Destiny


Are all some ideas. I think almost any combination of these would work well. Sorry, I thought Delta was a really good name on its own, it just sounded awkward in combination with other words.

There’s another name, Delta.
Agestream, ContinuousCosmos,

Eternalstar, Destinystar,, ContinuumMask,

Well, some ideas. If none of these are clicking, maybe Itll inspire someone.
>>
No. 64349 ID: cee89f

(sorry about the double post for a second - you may have noticed stuff like that happens to me a lot >.>)

Calling it now: she's going to combine every name (or at least several of the names) we've suggested into one mega-ultra-SUPER name as a joke before she reveals which name she ACTUALLY wants.

Also, let's go ahead and let her pick which name she wants.

>>/quest/474697
... Wait.

I have an idea.

And it DOESN'T involve cursing at people this time. Probably.

What if we named her 'Shift'?

WAIT WAIT WAIT! Just... hear me out.

A shift is, basically, a very quick, sudden change (usually in position). From the quoted post, we gain the insight that she values every moment of existence. Why? Because every single moment is different. Why is every single moment connected, then, if they're all different? Because each moment is a slight change from the previous - a shift. She's a major change in Saulanna's life (another huge shift) and offers a shift in perspective for us, as well as a major change in how our inner world looks and operates. She's shifted practically everything about us and the story just by coming into existence, but in that one instant, so much about Saulanna has changed! Time embodies changes of all kinds, major and minor shifts. So we name her Shift, we have a tie in to her element, as well as a deeper meaning than if we named her, say, Time!

...This idea sounded a lot better in my head, before i tried to explain why i liked it >.>
>>
No. 64350 ID: 38cd76

>>64349

The name shift had actually occured to me before. I think I like it better than Am, but I'm still not completely sold. Not sure why.

On that note, we could also call her Moment. And then just shorten that to Mo.

Mo.

haha.
>>
No. 64351 ID: 50038a

>>64317
jukashi why you gotta make me metagame like that
>>
No. 64352 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/474718
Oooooh, nice catch
>>
No. 64354 ID: b6edd6

>>64317
The internet stole our name D:
>>
No. 64355 ID: cee89f

>>64354
Come to think of it, with Rule 34, would that be like naming our Time Deva "Hooker"?
>>
No. 64357 ID: f33451

Hmm i find it strange that noone commented on the fact that just before the deva creation spiraled out of wordbloods control our left arms outline was red instead of the normal lunar blue and judging from the fact wordbloods is red and just before the the hero soul interfered the new deva was red as well i think that the red on our arm implies titanic influence. Judging from that our new devas purple color is evidence that she was influenced by our hero soul as well. That and the red arm along with the slow title pic change shows we are indeed slowly changing into a titan.
>>
No. 64360 ID: feae6d

>>64357
Great, now I'm wondering if in addition to raising Saulanna's soul force we can also directly upgrade our lunar hero soul to balane the growing titanic influence. (LunarQuest/TitanQuest -> LunarTitanQuest).
>>
No. 64361 ID: b6edd6

>>64355
Naming her after the internet would be closer to naming her 'Amsterdam'.
>>
No. 64362 ID: f2c20c

>>64352
It's about the same as it was last chapter. Slightly different red, but basically the same. I don't think it's meant to be seen as growing, but if it continues to get ever so slightly brighter next chapter, then there might be something to it.
>>
No. 64363 ID: 3734f6

>Give two names
That defeats the whole purpose of naming her "Am".
>Combo name
Not a single person commented on my combo ideas of AmNom or NomAm. Which I have to admit I like less then Am (but more then some of the other names suggested).

>>64357
I did, in fact I posited that it caused the exaltation spirit to bond to us as another lordly deva.

>>64355
Hooker is a shy girl...
You are thinking of Chastity or Purity or Virginia. :)

>>58020
>>58102
Jukashi, is this precedent for us asking wordblood questions in questdis that we do not wish to disrupt the quest?
If yes then
1. How does one differentiate between what is an element and what is a purpose for a deva? (especially considering he mentioned some are on a grey area between a purpose and an element)
2. What were the lordly devas purpose & element combinations for Gaia that he knows.
3. What were the lordly devas purpose & element that his previous incarnation had?
4. Are Love/Compassion/Bonds/Connections close enough to each that it would cause issues or would we be able to perhaps use 2 of them. Such as Love and Connections.
5. Is magic a purpose, element, or neither?
6. Since masks is an element, would weapons be one as well?
7. When 2 purposes are distinct, very similar, and of equal broadness/magnitude. Would it be correct to say that making either a lordly deva will relegate the other to being a noble under it?
8. Wordblood so far suggested devas for: Feeding, Combat, Healing, Seeing, and Social. Each and every one of those has some dependency on every one of the others, or at least cases of overlap. Its not very major overlap but it exists. How would that be resolved? For example, is Social Combat a subordinate of Combat?, Social?, both?
>>
No. 64365 ID: cee89f

>>64362
There's also the fact that it's not there at all in the opening image right after Luna says 'hi'.

>>64361
I'm sure I'd laugh if i got it.

>>64357
I figured that was Wordblood sustaining us while the Deva formed, or a representation of the soul graft that Wordblood was put into us on.

>>64360
Maybe the logo changes depending on how human we act or how titanic we act. Chapter 2 and this internal phase has largely focused on how we would grow as a titan and problems associated with BEING a titan, while Chapter 1 was largely Saulanna overcoming things with sheer Moon Power and taking actions as a human (as opposed to a titan) would.
>>
No. 64366 ID: 70c0f2

>>64362
Compare the chapter 2 begin and end posts. The moon in the logo wanes slightly, and the font for "Lunar Quest" changes to one with a lot thinner strokes, that sinks away more towards the bottom of the line- concealing "Titan's Quest" less effectively than it did before. While the font size of "Titan's Quest" grows.

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/questarch/src/133400430018.png
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/questarch/src/135379892380.png

Seems to hint at us becoming less an augmented lunar, and more a titan.

...that or J just lost the source file, or wanted to update the image, and we're reading too much into it. :V
>>
No. 64367 ID: 70acd0

>>64345
You're right, <something>delta just doesn't seem to work right. Was likely over thinking things in an attempt to mirror Wordbloods naming convention.

I've posted my final (unless someone puts something up that really wows me) vote/suggestion in the quest thread, sticking with just Delta as the name. Can find the details of why there. I really do think it fits on multiple levels.

I'm not really against Am as a name, though I do think that it lacks the kind of depth needed to spawn further imagery. That and we've pretty much already covered all the hi-jinks possible via riffing off the name in discussing it, so the word play would get stale very fast.


Note that it's merely my vote/suggestion, so while I don't see myself shifting my stance further on the name debate at this point I do find the discussion of various names to be quite interesting to follow.
>>
No. 64368 ID: a21b1b

Are negative votes against other names a thing?
>>
No. 64369 ID: 38cd76

>>64368
Haha, probably not. I did, but it was a joke.
>>
No. 64371 ID: f2c20c

>>64366
Yeah, I noticed all those differences, and I think they were due to some behind the scene changes rather than anything meaningful.
>>
No. 64373 ID: 2eac65

Another problem with the name "Am" is that it references something that only applies at the moment. Right now, she's excited to be alive because she's just been born, but that probably won't be true for too long. I don't think it's a good idea to define her existence by the fact that she exists.
>>
No. 64374 ID: 38cd76

>>64373
Yes. This is my complaint also.
>>
No. 64375 ID: c79d72

>>/quest/474483

for those who seem to have missed the original suggestion post.
>>
No. 64377 ID: 3734f6

>>64373
No it doesn't.
Am = Time
http://translate.google.com/#auto/ga/time
>>
No. 64379 ID: 2eac65

>>64377
It does. There were others, but "she's so excited to be alive" was one of the reasons that people have stated..

>>64374
Also, pride. It's easy to portray ourselves as cool and important by naming her after some basic. fundamental feature of the world. But we're creating a completely new person; if we give her a more personal name, then we can make it famous through our own accomplishments; then when people think of her name, all the awe that it inspires will be because of her and what she did.

Since I'm feeling self-indulgent, I'll explain the reasons for my own suggestion. Ohara was a reference to One Piece, wherein the island of Ohara was a centerplace for scholars and archaeologists who tried to rediscover the secrets of a "lost" century of history, and were persecuted and demonized by the government because of it. This (the research, that is) ties into some of the things we can do with our new soul: "consuming" portions of the past through research to learn about lost and forgotten civilizations and ancient secrets. Very in keeping with our overall character. Plus, it has "Har" in it, thus completing the phrase "Har Megido" which, according to legend, will be the site of a battle that marks the end of the world, or at least an age of history; our new soul, likewise, is a person who "consumes" periods of time (and given Titanic nature, could in a way be both a person and a place.

Alternative: Stardust. "Star" for her starry cloak, and "dust" because time turns all things to dust. Pretty simple, and I personally don't think it's that great, but if you want a name based on common words to go with "Wordblood", then I think it's a good choice.
>>
No. 64385 ID: 2d7060

I like stardust.

As far as Am goes, I simply find the gaelic incredibly removed and esoteric. It is overpowered by the contemporary definition.

Stardust I like, but it reminds me if a book and movie of the same name.
>>
No. 64386 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/474954
D:

I don't like that name anymore. :(
>>
No. 64388 ID: b978d0

(*Format fail, lets try this again...*)
Ok, went through the quest thread and grabbed the votes as best I could. Only counting the most recent vote by any given person (and probably missing a few).

1 } Ahm
20} Am
1 } Am as part of the name
1 } Am, but consult Wordblood first
2 } Am -> Am Kairosa
1 } Am -> Kairosa
1 } Am -> Ouroboros
1 } Am Kairos
5 } Am Kairosa
1 } Amelie Kairosa
1 } Amkairosa
1 } Bibo
1 } Delta
1 } Eternity -> Delta -> Kairosa
1 } Kai -> Am
1 } Kairos(a)
14} Kairosa
1 } Kairosa "Kai" Starshimmer
1 } Kairosa (with or without Am)
1 } Megido -> Am Kairosa -> <foo> Am Kairosa
1 } Mobius -> Tonalli
2 } Ohara Am Megido
1 } Ohara Megido
1 } Raccoons
1 } Saniya
1 } Timantha
1 } Titilayo

Looks like Am is currently in the lead, with Kairosa a relatively close second. Could be fudged a bit either way due to similar, but not quite the same, type votes/suggestions.
Am Kairosa is a distant third, but would likely pull into first place when using more advanced voting techniques.
Some variant of Megido pulls into the fourth place slot, with everything else getting just one vote each.

The vast majority of votes are for singular names though, so that may need to be factored into the final decision too.


There's also two suggestions that have been made for surnames: Starshimmer and Rockblossom.

Personally, I like the idea of sharing the Rockblossom surname with all of our deva. We are one big family, be it by graft/adoption or creation/birth.
>>
No. 64389 ID: e89181

I have noticed several "I am changing my vote" posts already.
If you want to change your vote than please DELETE the old one and then post a new one.
>>
No. 64391 ID: 629257

>>64389
To be fair, due to system error or browsing habits sometimes they just can't. But they should at least quote the vote being edited.
>>
No. 64393 ID: 5bf190

You know, I never said it was going to be a vote. But that list is very helpful, thanks.
>>
No. 64394 ID: b978d0

>>64393
Glad to be of assistance. Vote or not, that was getting to be quite a lot of posts to parse.
>>
No. 64396 ID: b6edd6

>>/quest/474954
So two internets stole our name :V
>>
No. 64397 ID: 00f7d4

Hm... going off the stardust thing... something like Eternal Stars or Eternal Dust would also be a decent name.

Dusts of Infinite!
>>
No. 64400 ID: cd4189

>>64393

This makes me very happy. What will be chosen is what will be good for the author, not the audience. Or...well, not just the audience. Audience approval is important, but not as much as writer approval.

So she'll be given a name in line with her mannerisms, as you expect them to be in the future. This is good. This is very good. Foresight that we do not have is being applied. :p
>>
No. 64406 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/475047
That symbol is Gallifreyan, but using the online guide I googled to translate it gives me 'Kairisa' instead of Kairosa. Did Jukashi spell it wrong or am I mistranslating? There appear to be multiple versions online; the one I used is http://timeturners.wikidot.com/circular-gallifreyan
>>
No. 64407 ID: 5bf190

Well, I just checked it again, and now it says "Kairesa". So I made a mistake somewhere.
>>
No. 64409 ID: 70c0f2

>>64406
The line on the O gave me some pause initially, too.

But as best I can tell, a non-radial line doesn't change the vowels at all. E, I and U are all placed the same way, but I has a radial line going in, and U has a radial line going out.

Terminating one the non-radial lines from the S on the previous vowel shouldn't change it, I think.

I'm not sure the O is placed at the right altitude, though. The difference between A E and O is one of vertical placement. I think the O needs to be on the arc of the R, not above it.
>>
No. 64411 ID: f2c20c
File 135414448507.png - (171.62KB , 600x500 , KAIROSA.png )
64411

Something more like this would work, I think.
>>
No. 64412 ID: 70c0f2

>>64411
Yeah, that works.

Although maybe we should move where that line terminates? If you attribute it to the wrong arc when you read, it changes from Kairosa to Kaivowa. ...or I suppose not- you can tell where the lines originate by what surface they're perpendicular to. So there's no ambiguity.
>>
No. 64415 ID: f2c20c

>>64412
The dots are a dead giveaway. A letter can't have both dots and lines.
>>
No. 64416 ID: f2c20c

>>64415
On the other hand, the fact that the S has four lines attached to it is probably improper. The one sticking to it via the I can count as part of the S.
>>
No. 64417 ID: 70c0f2

>>64415
Oh, right. Doy.

>>64416
Possibly, although technically nothing can have 4 lines either, so you'd have to attribute one of them to another source, and the I is the only valid one available. That, and since you read counterclockwise, you're going to encounter the line on the vowel first.
>>
No. 64418 ID: 2eac65

Well, now we know why she's not the deva of Language.

Kairosa's a good name for her. It sounds nice.

Random thought: It'd be neat if the stars in Kairosa's cloak could twinkle or swirl in still images. Each image is a single moment of time, and since she's the deva of time, it's kind of fitting for her to be animated when the rest of the world is still. Or maybe that would make the images too big, I don't know.

Other random thought: I hope Kairosa gets more arms when her Soul Force increases. Just think that'd be neat.
>>
No. 64427 ID: bf54a8

think our main investment should be in becoming a social champ. a single point in beauty should be safe, just have it be we were rather haggered before and now we are nice and cleaned up.
other stats that can't be seen would be a lot easier to upgrade without someone catching on.
>>
No. 64429 ID: 63f851

When we get to noming the slaver's souls, we should try to taste what we can about their past before eating them. Might make Kaan feel better if they're both totally deserving of being eaten, since he seemed unsure about that earlier.
>>
No. 64430 ID: 6754de

>>64429
Agreed. But Peregrin did note in Ch.1 it wasn't a completely terrible fate and we'll probably end up eating them anyway - it's not like they're going to be able to go out into the Shadowland, and they can't go into the Underworld.

Heck, we could probably ask the Ghosts themselves about it, if we want. An eternity in crystals, or they can go through the reincarnation process, the main difference being WE get the soul instead of the Wheel.
>>
No. 64431 ID: 3734f6

If I understand it correctly, the quality of our titan workings is soul force + specialization points. So at SF 2 + Efficienty 2 we get a total efficiency score of 4?
Since there are so many specializations, upgrading soulforce seems superior use of TW then getting specific specialties.

Furthermore, each SF level gets us 3 more motes of power (and 5 motes can be assigned to bump TW generation speed one level).

In addition to that each level of SF unlocks new ability. Saulanna got the ability to smell and see magic at SF3. Wordblood told us he will regain the ability to read minds and plant false thoughts into people's heads when his soulforce rises.

Raising soulforce is just so much better use of TW then any individual highly specialized use in most cases... aside from creating new specialized deva.
>>
No. 64432 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/475471
Uh, what gives you that impression? We know that the Hero Soul is beginning to act as a Deva would. That tells us exactly one thing: that it's acting as a Deva would.

Luna did not create the Moon Hero souls - Autocthon did. So any function this one has is unrelated to Luna knowing about us.

I agree we should tell Luna, but I can't pin down your reasoning that Luna most likely already knows.
>>
No. 64433 ID: 42ace1

>>64432
Where did you get the idea that Autochthon, not Luna, created the Moon Hero Souls?
>>
No. 64434 ID: 3734f6

>>64433
The quest, on multiple occasions with evidence.
>>
No. 64437 ID: 70c0f2

>>64431
It's true, that for the moment, investing in SF is a more efficient use of TW than indavidual abilities. You get more for less.

However, there are other considerations.

First of all, this won't be true for long. As SF increases, the TW cost to upgrade increases as well, making the investment less and less efficient compared to specific or individual upgrades or ability creations (which only cost 1TW each).

Secondly, we can't put efficiency over staying alive, or or maintaining our autonomy. We're going to need to spend some TW on Wordblood for the express purpose of handling the next social combat, or we're going to find ourselves exposed, dead, and/or under the control of one of the other factions at play. That means investing in some kind of social ability(ies) for him so we don't keep getting out ass kicked.

Although, debating how to spend TW is kind of a moot point unit Kairosa noms dem souls, and we find out how much we actually have to work with.
>>
No. 64438 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/475475
I think it's not time yet to discuss where we should be min-maxing outside the discussion thread. As for your actual suggestion, I think it's extremely boring to find a hole to hide in while we pump everything into gaining bigger numbers. If Saulanna did that, what kind of weak-willed recluse would she become? We're on break here to gear up for social warfare, and for that we should equip some charms and/or stat boosts to Saulanna and arm our secret super-weapon Titan souls.

Also, we don't know how much TW we're gonna get yet, or the specifics of what we could be upgrading with that TW. The stuff about making TW self-generation faster is information that we should be using later, not now.
>>
No. 64439 ID: 42ace1

>>64434
It would have been nice if you linked to that evidence, you know. However, what's past is past.

I found the only post by Jukashi that references Autochthon creating the Hero Souls. It's
>>/questarch/408134
>>
No. 64440 ID: fb9917

>>64438
I just wanted to get us down to a day rather than a week for our next bit of Titan's Will. I don't want to be sitting in a hole for months, so really upgrading Kairosa's Soul Force to 3 is pretty much mandatory. Efficiency costs another 2 TW to upgrade to 3 and may or may not make it faster? Kairosa didn't really say exactly how the specific subskills interact with that. Getting Wordblood up to 3 and then picking up something to improve his social combat abilities is a good plan but I'm not sure how any of the proposed Titan's Workings for him really help in social combat. True Speech sort of? But I don't know how that one really works. He might have some ideas though.
>>
No. 64441 ID: 3734f6

>>64438
Hole up?
@ current level 1/season
+1 from 5 mote assignment = 1/month
+1 from levelup = 1/week
+1 from pre-specifying what we will spend it on = 1/day
+1 from additional levelup I suggested = 4/day
+1 from additional 5 motes I specified = lots/day
Potentially another +2 ranks from getting her SF from 2 to 4 (I am not actually sure SF directly adds to efficiency or not; I thought it did but her phrasing on that post suggests it doesn't).
At this output level it pays for itself REALLY quickly.

And since I specified the purpose ahead of time to be upgrading soul force then we will use it to upgrade all of us which gets us more powerful in a variety of applicable ways. Not to mention I am sure we can find other nommables...

>>64437
Certainly true. I wasn't saying that we should never upgrade individual abilities. Only pointing out that at the moment our SF is so pathetically low that it is the better investment. If total titan ability is SF + specialized investment than I would say that specific abilities should generally be 1/X SF where X is the number of abilities we are trying to max out for that deva.

Mmm... Odd that the text suggests a level of SF would not increase TW generation without specialization. Yet wordblood spoke on how his abilities will get better with more SF... Maybe a better reconciliation of those statements is that: Total ability = rounddown(SF/X) + specialization level. Where X varies based on what it is?
>>
No. 64443 ID: 3734f6

>>/quest/475485
He did both. That one was in the context of us suggesting shoe horning social skills into a feeding deva. He said that IF we are going to just upgrade a deva whose purpose is non social with some social ability, upgrading him for his high end social skills would be better. But IIRC he also suggested a deva whose purpose is purely social.
>>
No. 64444 ID: b978d0

>>64430
Option 3: On the off chance that one (or both) of the souls end up not being terrible people (ie, not actually guilty of the crimes they're accused of and as such wrongly damned to eternal containment or worse) then we could offer them a position as an internal vassal until such a time as they are able to pass on normally. Whether or not there's air in here is a moot point for spirits after all, and souls passing on within us would be well within our domain to reclaim.


I'd also like to suggest looking into an upgrade for Kairosa that would act as a sort of disassociative filter for when she tastes the past of others or consumes souls. Especially important if we're only wanting to absorb souls that we judge as deserving such a fate.
Knowledge can be a terrible burden, especially when it's of something you'd rather not know in the first place, let alone intimately so. I'd much rather that Kairosa does not go insane in our stead via direct exposure to too many atrocities. Establishing a bit of a barrier of disassociation will hopefully protect against what would effectively be consumption of a tainted food source. Sort of a spiritual poison resistance.

I do like the idea of allocating energy to Kairosa in order to speed up passive energy generation, but that should wait till after we've dealt with the immediate internal investigation, consumed (or spared as the case may be) the two souls, and finished any upgrades. I expect that after doing such our available pool of energy will be both larger and refilled, putting us in a better position to be able to spare the energy while also having resources available to face the challenges put forth by our guests.

Improving the efficiency via specialized refinement is also a very good idea as that's an extra magnitude of speed. My suggestion being to focus first on upgrading Saulanna. If our investigation of the Lunar exaltation yeilds no signs of it rejecting our titanic nature, then it might be a good idea to fill out Saulanna's abilities as the Queen. Extra abilities would be much harder to detect than raw soul force upgrades after all.

On that note, what are the kinds of abilities that most befit a queen who possesses an agressive personality and intelectual > social > physical nature?
Improved empathic link to her subjects?
Ability to perceive the capabilities of her subjects as if looking at actual stat sheets?
Some sort of ability to help with judgements?
Greater control over the internal realm?
Just boosting her raw willpower?
Not entirely sure where what direction to go with this line of thought...
>>
No. 64447 ID: b978d0

(I really should learn to refresh before posting, especially given how long it takes me to wordify my thoughts...)

>>64432
While Autocthon may have been the driving force behind the creation of the exaltations, they are still derived from their associated god. In our case that's Luna. While it's not been specified exactly how (and likely never will so that it can function how the story needs it to), this exaltation is tied to Luna strongly enough that she can perform a visitation when a new host is found.

Initially, when Wordblood was in an inert state, she already was able to note that something didn't quite feel right. After Wordblood came to, it would have been obvious under direct scrutiny. Hard to imagine she wouldn't notice the most recent change, even remotely.

That said, I am running mostly off of hunches and have no special link into the inner workings of this reality (or any other for that matter).
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No. 64448 ID: 3734f6

>My suggestion being to focus first on upgrading Saulanna
>I think it's extremely boring to find a hole to hide in while we pump everything into gaining bigger numbers

So, to further clarify.
We spent 6TW on Keirosa. She can make 1TW/week without further TW investment which is simply not realistically usable in the short term. If we eat some souls and spend another 15TW to get SF4 us, SF4 her, and Efficiency 4 (and each individual upgrade increases returns from next ghost eaten) then we are all the way up to 4TW/day at a minimum or even more depending on rules (1. can we assign 10 motes for a second boost? 2. does her +2 SF give a bonus as well) AND we would have a massive 27 motes energy pool! of which only 12 generate soul flare. of which 5 or 10 are tied up. And we would have gained another random lunar ability (in addition to reactivating sight beyond sight) and keirosa probably would have gained 2 abilities as well (SF2 to SF4).

This additional upgrade would fully pay for itself in 3.75 days (less if we get lots/day) and during the next week we will be generating 28/week (min) rather then 1/week. It will give us 2 TW min by morning (earliest crap will go down) which we could apply directly to convincing the lunars to give us more time, and give us a steady income to actively do things and play rather then hole up for months or eat more ghosts (the reason why we made a feeding deva in the first place). That's worst case scenario where we only get 4/day, best case we get lots/day and by morning we would have generated more TW then we spent.

I am NOT saying we should hole up and forever boost our numbers. I am saying we should get this SPECIFIC objective right now and the results will be felt by immediately. On the other hand if we blow it all on social boosts then we will MAYBE win the argument tomorrow... and be right back at square one having to eat a bunch of ghosts to get the TW to get supply going (or hole up for months which is unacceptable) anyways. Heck, if things devolve to combat our social boosts are useless while a 27 mote pool and lots/day TW generation are applicable. And if you ARE willing to eat all those extra ghosts to get a supply going on LATER (as a result of getting social upgrade first) then we might as well get efficiency first and eat them all right now to get both social and feeding upgrades done together.
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No. 64449 ID: 38cd76

>>64443
Reviewing the thread, I don't recall anywhere he actually suggested we should make a social deva.

There were elements he told us would be better for a social deva, but honestly, those are all elements that would probably begin to encroach on his territory eventually anyways.

We should TOTALLY invest in Wordblood first off. He's been helping us out a lot, I'd like to reward him a bit. Aside from that, his abilities would give us some immediate gains to get out of our sticky situation.

Secondly we should invest in Kairosa. She'd help us long term, and also has some cool abilities that could help us out a bit, albeit not quite so much. That whole tasting history and guessing the future thing is nice. (though the latter dangerous.)

Thirdly, I would invest in the Hero Soul. Just because I'm curious what would happen. It would expand our abilities directly, but not in a way that would seem weird to outsiders. We'd be essentially expanding our moon powers, I guess?

As it is, there's no real reason to upgrade saulana herself just yet. All of her deva's ARE her, more or less. And she gets direct access to all of their abilities.

I can't think of anything we could do to invest in Saulana herself that wouldn't have more immediate gains on one of her devas, at the moment.
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No. 64451 ID: 3734f6

>>64449
You are right, he merely said that certain elements would make good social devas not actually told us to make a social deva...
But it probably would be a good idea.

Didn't worldblood caution against having the lords be stronger then saulanna herself? It could shift the personality. I don't think becoming a titan whose queen is her feeding deva is a good idea.

Furthermore, investing in the exaltation spirit is risky and can do who knows what. While investing in saulanna increases her abilities to access the powers of the exaltation spirit (giving her more moon power and a new lunar hero ability per SF)
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No. 64452 ID: 3734f6

>>/quest/475471
Didn't we already agree that the issue isn't luna herself but the fact luna will not keep the info to herself? The unconquered sun will probably do horrible things to us (remember the titans)

current options:
1. Reveal self to luna: She will report us to unconquered sun... most likely game over bad end. At best we run to underworld and seek asylum.
2. Ally with shadow dragon: Become dependent on him, be dawn into too many dangerous things and make enemies we don't really want.
3. Buy time: More time = more power = better bargaining position.
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No. 64453 ID: f2c20c

>>64449
There's a good reason to invest in Saulanna. If her Devas become stronger than her, we risk them taking over. Such is the nature of a Titan. Even having her at the same SL as her Devas is an uncomfortable situation.

Think of Saulanna's SL as being a hard cap on our Deva's SLs. She's at 2 right now. So is Wordblood. Kairosa is at 1, and who knows what the Hero Soul is at, or if we should even upgrade it. Personally I think it might be a good idea to leave it alone until we have Luna's permission and advice. I'm aware that would mean spilling the beans to her, so it's a bit of a long-term goal. Anyway, we can raise Kairosa to SL 2, but after that we'd want to raise Saulanna to 3 again asap.
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No. 64454 ID: 70c0f2

We're looking at basic strategy game choices here. How much to we invest in our energy production / economy / research versus our defensive / offensive capacities?

There are arguments to be made for upgrading, well, pretty much everything. Although, I think it's safe to say we want a ballanced approach (we can't afford to risk going with either a zerg rush, or an undefended reactor) But what we actually chose to invest in will depend on how much TW we have at hand, and our immediate concerns.

Let's wait and see how much TW Kairosa can squeeze out of the slavers, then we'll decide how to spend it. There may be enough for several things, actually, since we're eating two souls at once, and she should be better at this than Wordblood was.

>Social Soul
I don't see the point anymore. Wordblood's domain is communication, which is pretty much what all social interactions are. We already have the tools and allies we need to dominate in this sphere if we invest in them. A new, dedicated deva for this purpose seems a waste to me.

Now, a stealth deva of some kind, that sounds useful. There are many factions in this world we wish to conceal ourself from until we've grown stronger. And stealth has obvious tactical uses, and applicability in a social sphere.
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No. 64456 ID: 757162

Assuming K is Sl1, we could use our remaining TW to upgrade her efficiency or SF, preferably efficiency as SF causes problems, but if we can't increase efficiency for K, I say do it, and immediately eat the first soul, the boost in SF to should mean we get at least one for one TW in investment.

After we've eaten the first soul, then we see how much TW we get, double it for the remaining soul and see what to invest it on.

Before that, though I recommend checking out the Hero Soul.
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No. 64457 ID: 9b155d

Kairosa is not at one. Jukashi said before when talking about making Devas with us at a higher soulforce that the made Deva is equal to the Soulforce we drop down to. We make one at 8, we drop to 7, and the Deva would be at 7. We made one at 3, we dropped to 2, so she's at 2.
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No. 64459 ID: cee89f

>>64433
Wordblood said so. Check thread 2, after we eat the soulsmith and after his sudden panic attack.
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No. 64460 ID: d785c7

> ,investing in the exaltation spirit is risky and can do who knows what. While investing in saulanna increases her abilities to access the powers of the exaltation spirit (giving her more moon power and a new lunar hero ability per SF)

It's hard to say what the difference between investing in saulana vs the hero soul would be. Normally we can't isolate them. But for now, investing in the hero soul probably wouldn't be much different from saulana herself. >>64453 I'm not saying its not a good idea EVENTUALLY. Simply just not needed, or even most efficient, right now.

I do agree we need to bump sails soul force back to 3 or more though.
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No. 64461 ID: cee89f

>>64452
I think that, if we plead to Luna, we can convince her/UCS to hold off on destroying us until we can prove ourselves a force for good.

The problem with waiting is that, if we're powerful enough to be a genuine threat to UCS before we reveal ourselves, it implies that we're gaining that power SPECIFICALLY so we're a genuine threat. If we tell them now, we risk being destroyed, but they know we know that, so they'll at least investigate before wiping us off the map. It's a show of good faith... but the even bigger problem is if we're discovered BEFORE we tell anyone else why. UCS himself, at least, CAN'T attack us directly because of the Geas, but there are plenty of ways Luna, UCS, the Maidens and every other god in existence could make our life VERY hard to survive through.

But they do have precedent of Titans being good guys: Autocthon and Gaia, for instance.

> ,investing in the exaltation spirit is risky and can do who knows what. While investing in saulanna increases her abilities to access the powers of the exaltation spirit (giving her more moon power and a new lunar hero ability per SF)

I think we need to boost Saulanna's SF anyway, and we don't know what boosting the Hero Soul will actually /do/.

So. We'll probably have to wait for the TW from the souls to make a good judgement on it, but we'll probably:
Bring Saulanna back up to 3
Upgrade Wordblood to 3
Upgrade Kairosa to 3

At that point, our reserves will most likely be low, but I'd say we need to get Kairosa to a point where we're making TW each day, while keeping ourselves at an equal or higher SF. We're at the very bottom of the well in terms of power right now, and TW will help us get more. But we also need Wordblood to gain some social abilities for the next social battle. We got creamed like corn back there.

...

Stop looking at me like that -.-
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No. 64463 ID: 3734f6
File 135422536741.png - (18.88KB , 807x397 , TW per day.png )
64463

>>64454
There is no reasonable argument for not going efficiency 4 ASAP. The sole REASON we created a feeding deva is to minimize the amount of souls we would eat. There are a ton of souls here we can go munching on without even a need for a feeding deva if we allowed ourselves to.
The only question is how many souls are we going to HAVE to eat.

Investing into a basic TW generation scheme is the only way to minimize the amount of souls we have to eat to do that. Also, keep in mind that efficiency also gives a bonus to TW gained from eaten souls.

If we invest the TW from the slavers into social/combat then we could win tomorrow's challenge but then what? we are still stuck with an atrocious 1/week rate which will require months we do not have to upgrade to a 4/day rate. There is 0% chance that we will HAVE months to just sit on our ass so realistically, we WILL have to eat more souls in order to it and the longer we wait to do it the more souls we would have to eat to "catch up" compared to immediately investing in it.

We WILL have to eat souls to pay for upgrading feeding to a point where it can actually generate enough TW in a timely manner to pay for more upgrades. Doing it first gets us extra TW from each soul eaten AND extra TW from passing time. So on a whole, we end up eating less souls for more TW. And we if we are honest with ourselves we can do it all tonight AND limit ourselves to eating souls who deserve it (wouldn't it suck if, say, we were forced to eat guard captain or DIE at the hand of an adversary?)

Look at the attached chart, We are currently at level 2 and able to push to 4 by predetermining what TW is going to be spent on and assigning 5 motes to regen. We are looking at a linear cost for an exponential return. 6TW to safely increase 1 more level 9TW for another level. 1/3 of each increase is just to up saulana's SF which we would have to do anyways for most purposes and comes with other benefits.
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No. 64464 ID: 70c0f2

>There is no reasonable argument for not going efficiency 4 ASAP
There is. It's called opportunity cost.

If you're putting everything into efficiency, you aren't investing in other things. Things we may need to deal with immediate concerns. Turning ourself into a TW factory won't help much if we remain so weak we let Kat turn us into her willing mindslave, first. Or if we get tattooed, revealed, hog-tied and handed over to the sun by a tribe of lunars.

Yes, long term, investing in production pays off. Put there's the very real tradeoff in investing enough in other things to make it to the long term. We're very vulnerable.

Also, there's the meta problem. If we invest so we get hoards of TW per day? We're not going to start dominating everything. The narrative is going to throw new threats at us capable of causing us problems even with those resources at our disposal.
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No. 64465 ID: b978d0

>>64448
>My suggestion being to focus first on upgrading Saulanna
Note that this is the 2nd sentence in a short paragraph discussing the more efficient passive generation of TW. Passive generation that, at absolute best, would still take hours to kick in if we jacked up Kairosa's abilities with soul fuelled upgrades. Gotta remember the context there.

>>64452
I expect that we can have more faith in Luna than that. Not only because she is the goddess of trickery, but also because it's one of her own exaltations that bonded to what could be viewed as a baby titan. Telling UCS about us when the timing is wrong could have disastrous implications for herself in addition to us. If one of her exaltations has converted to the dark side ~of it's own volition and with her blessing~ then it could bring her fundamental loyalties into question.

Also note that I've only suggest broaching the topic, as in talking about it internally, with one of the sub-topics being when we should fess up. Another would be if we should fess up at all. I expect that Wordblood at least would be freaked out by the idea, but he is a rational type so will recognize that it's not if our titanic nature is discovered but when. Kairosa I'm guessing would likely take this concept more in stride.

Right now, with the new information regarding our Lunar exaltation behaving like a deva in some ways, I'm thinking that the optimal time to go to Luna would be after upgrading the exaltation into a full on deva. Who better to vouch for us than our own exaltation after all.
Still need closer examination to determine if that would be a wise course of action, or even strictly possible. And that's assuming that the process hasn't already started.


Overall though, playing with an incomplete deck, so I'm admittedly working with hunches and intuition more than hard facts.
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No. 64466 ID: bf54a8

indeed, getting out of tatoos and working for the dragons shadow are a MUST. so yes, maximizing our short term is rather important.
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No. 64467 ID: 9b155d

>>64463
This isn't a video game where we're starting off on equal grounds against clear opponents. There are politics and a wider set of interests to be aware of. If we upgrade our production we have to upgrade Soulforce and without investing in a way to hide or fight first things will more likely notice us and cause some severe problems. Rushing our economy as >>64454 put it leaves us massively vulnerable to everything, because we'll ping as something stronger then we really are.
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No. 64469 ID: 9b155d

>>64465
You imply that Luna has control of her exaltations. Or perhaps that Sol wouldn't know she doesn't despite having his own brand of Exalted. This despite there having been Lunar Akuma and Solars before, and even Solar Escalations being made into things that aren't Solars through Titanic power.

Also, I don't like the assumption that our Exaltation will necessarily be on our side, tool for fighting Titans that it is. I'd at least want to upgrade Wordblood first so he could better social combat it into supporting us if it doesn't start that way.
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No. 64470 ID: 3734f6

Jesus christ people...
This is NOT a matter of long vs short term and there is no opportunity cost!
Investing in efficiency pays for itself FASTER the more you invest due to linear cost and exponential returns.
And as I have suggested it we are talking about super short term.

Lets say a ghost at our current efficiency gives us 5TW.
Scenario 1:
Spend the next 15TW on social then we win tomorrow challenge at the cost of eating 3 ghosts...
Its now tomorrow... you talked everyone into leaving. You are now going to have to eat 3 more ghosts for that 15TW to get thee economy going since we don't have months to wait for it.

Scenario 2:
eat 3 ghosts and Spend the next 15TW on efficiency. Gain +1TW from third ghost being consumed post upgrade
eat 2 more ghosts for 12TW... by morning you get another 2TW. Spend 15TW on social upgrade.

An EQUAL amount of TW was spent in both scenarios. In scenario you ate 5 ghosts to spend 30TW.
In scenario 1 you ate 6 ghosts for those 30TW.

There is no 'rushing' of economy. There is no 'opporunity cost'
An economy MUST be built. It will take us mere minutes to do so. The only question is how many souls we are going to eat.
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No. 64472 ID: 70c0f2

>15TW on social
That is absurd.

At most, to do well in social, we need a beauty upgrade, and to spend a few points on Wordblood. I'm advocating a balanced approach between energy generation and other concerns, not rushing either one at the expense of the other.

Also, your analysis assumes we have as many souls at our disposal to consume as you desire. Opportunity cost becomes a very real problem if you consider the number of souls available for consumption to be finite, and limited.

There are only so many irredeemable, evil souls available in close vicinity we can eat guilt free- hell, there's no guarantee we're even going to eat both these slavers once Kairosa checks their pasts. And since we're no longer fighting for our lives against Kaan's forces, we can't just kill ghosts to survive. They're not our enemies anymore- they're our subjects.
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No. 64473 ID: b978d0

>>64469
She's a god, and the lunar exaltations are a part of her domain. She may not have direct control over them, but she is linked to them in some way.

Also note that Luna and UCS probably knew that something happened to the exaltations that were tainted. Knowing something has happened and being able to do much of anything about it are two completely different things. Just as a King might know that some of his soldiers were captured by the enemy, but is unable to rescue them or know exactly what's happened to them while they were in enemy hands.

>>64467
This I agree with.

I also agree that there's plenty of upgrading to do before risky stuff like messing with our exaltation.
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No. 64474 ID: 842e71

It's certainly time we started deciding what we will invest in. We may not know how much TW we will have, but we can make some reasonable estimates. Disregarding the additions provided by efficiency, the mobster provided us with 3 TW, the soldier with 2 and the soulsmith with 6.

Now, we know the slavers were around before the war and were powerful enough to impose their wills on other ghosts, so they should be about as powerful as the mobster was, perhaps slightly more. With efficiency in the calculation and the one point we already have, we will likely get 11-13 TW to spend in total should we devour both.

So what will we spend it on? Considering the immediate issue of the social barbarians at the gates, playing the long game right now seems like a good way to make sure we never live to see the long game. Or do so at the behest of the Dragon. Let's focus on what we can bring to bear in the social arena.

We already know our interlocutors have access to a variety of magical senses, so bringing soul force back to 3 to minimize suspicion seems reasonable and is fairly cheap. Since the task is social, Wordblood is the obvious candidate for investment, and bringing him up to 3 soul force seems like a good idea. If we do this before the second soul is devoured, we may even be able to restore our power in the process, giving us 24 power total for the conflict ahead.

The real problem, of course, is our lack of directly applicable titanic powers to use it on. Wordblood's upgrade will also grant us an unknown Titan's working, and we'll likely buy additional ones. As Wordblood noted previously:

>"Currently, the Titan's Works available to me are the World Reading ability, which will let me "read" information from your surroundings through your eyes; the True Speech ability, which will allow you to speak in the tongue of absolute truth; and the first level of the Depth of Comprehension ability, which will increase my benefits from consuming knowledge."

Depths of Comprehension is utterly irrelevant. True speech may come in handy if it can be used discreetly, which seems dubious at best. World reading will only be useful if it also translates to reading people. We'll have to ask Wordblood on the specifics. Hopefully raising soul force will unlock access to something more relevant.

That's 4 TW + 1 per additional working we purchase. Given how quickly TW can be put to use, banking 2-3 points for unforeseen contingencies seems wise.

Another problem is the way Akatrina will more or less one-argument us on lesser topics. Increasing beauty will help with this and synergizes nicely with our free refutations, but is likely to arouse suspicion. (Also, I rather like how Saulanna is currently drawn.) We presumably can't raise wordblood's dots easily, handy as that would be. I don't suppose we could use Titan's Will to increase our supply of ordinary Will?
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No. 64475 ID: 9b155d

>>64473
Given that in the normal Exalted setting the Infernals and Abyssals spent some time hidden, and rooting out Akuma is damn hard, I very much doubt they can sense an exaltation has been tainted without at minimum examining the Exalt themselves.

Now, the fact that it's currently outside of fate? That she might be able to sense, but given the variety of ways that particular thing could happen it's hard to say how much attention it'd draw, especially given all the other Lunars, her other Godly duties, and possibly an addiction to the Games of Divinity to deal with.

Also, not sure if Lunar Exalts are technically part of her Godly Domain, as Lytek is the God of Exaltation.
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No. 64476 ID: 63f851

>>64463
>There is no reasonable argument for not...
Even if we can upgrade TW generation to the point where we can gain enough extra TW to defend ourselves against the social point of the political spear, we don't have a stealth soul yet. Generating Lots/Day seems to be a major change/turning point for our development, and it very probably would be a noticeable change. Yes, the math might work out, but we've got other factors to consider. Besides all this, new information is coming our way soon, and it may well be that Jukashi will introduce particulars that make your plan impractical or introduce other opportunities. That would make "There's no reasonable argument" seem rather silly, yes?

So on a different topic, does anything think that 'presence' or 'absence' might be a good element for a stealth soul? Seems to me like it might be primal enough, yet strange enough to be unique. Or maybe not?
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No. 64477 ID: cee89f

Something a lot of people seem to be forgetting: we don't HAVE a day to get these people off of our backs, or a day to allow TW to generate. We have until the sun comes up again, at least, but after that? I sincerely doubt that Askalaff and Garmir are going to allow us to stay in the Shadowland. Remember, Askalaff has a way to force us to come with them - I don't see much reason (from their perspective) not to use it.

>>64475
Also, that normal exalts are outside Fate too -_-

>>64463
Yes there is. It's very simple, actually: playing the long game before assuring we actually GET to the long game IS GOING TO BITE US IN THE ASS. WE CANNOT WIN THIS FIGHT AT OUR CURRENT LEVEL OF SOCIAL PROWESS. IF WE DO NOT GET WORDBLOOD SOME POWER ASAP, IT WON'T MATTER HOW SOON WE GET TO EOC 4, BECAUSE WE WILL BE UNABLE TO ACT ON OUR OWN.

Unrelated to the above: We need a two-way communication method between ourselves and Peregrin in case we do get convinced to leave. He won't be able to cast it on us whenever he likes, but we know his true name, so we can open a channel with him and talk if we end up outside of the Shadowland.
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No. 64478 ID: b978d0

>>64475
I'd think that once corrupted, a given exaltation is no longer part of the original gods domain. Such a tie would be severed in creating the bond to the new master. Either way, I'm being deliberately fuzzy on how exactly lunar exaltations would be linked to Luna because I just don't know and can only speculate at best. What little I've got to go on would suggest that some form of link exists though, at least as I see it.

Good point about how much of her attention it would draw though. All things considered, we are still rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Plenty of potential, but that's nowhere close to being realized yet.

Either way, I still think that a gesture of good will would pay off in the long run.
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No. 64480 ID: 3734f6

>There are only so many irredeemable, evil souls available in close vicinity we can eat guilt free
If we don't enough souls then we lose. We might win an argument tomorrow... but then what?
We need to get 5TW to upgrade saulana to SF4, 5 to upgrade kairosa to SF4, 5 to upgrade efficiency to 4. And however much we need to overcome the challenges tomorrow. If we do not eat enough souls tonight to do so, then we will be forced to eat nicer ones later on in desperation.

>>64477
>Askalaff has a way to force us to come with them
Which he cannot use until sunup. Hence only estimate 2 TW at a 4/day rate.

>playing the long game
There is no long game short game going on. If we eat enough souls now and apply the TW correctly we would have to eat the absolute minimum amount of souls.
If we starve ourselves then we will eat many more souls later to compensate.

If we eat ~5 worst souls around (which will take us under 10 minutes) we should have enough TW to be fully prepared. The longer we wait the more souls we would have to eat eventually.

At a minimum we need to eat enough souls ASAP to get: (in order, after each soul is eaten, upgrade as much as you can before eating the next soul to minimize wastage; total time taken under 10 minutes!):
2TW Saulanna SF2 to 3
2TW Kairosa SF2 to 3
2TW efficiency 2 to 3
3TW Saulanna SF3 to 4
3TW Kairosa SF3 to 4
3TW efficiency 3 to 4
2TW wordblood SF2 to 3
3TW wordblood 3 to 4
Total: 20TW
+10 TW for assorted stuff.
And ideally we get some more and go to SF5 on all 3 and efficiency 5... Or heck, if there are enough souls then go for broke and make even more devas.

4 efficiency isn't about "rushing economy" or neglecting everything else... its the point at which passive TW generation becomes viable. The longer we wait on it the more souls total we would have to eat... the ONLY question is how many souls we are going to have to eat... and what kind of innocents we would be forced to gobble to survive if we stupidly starve ourselves too much.

>WE CANNOT WIN THIS FIGHT AT OUR CURRENT LEVEL OF SOCIAL PROWESS
1. We can use TW to cheat.
2. We can use moon abilities with power points from devas without triggernig soul flare.
3. We can have an utterly obscene pool of power allowing us to dominate them all (not to mention par is on our side) and can even keep a condemned in the head for an instant recharge.
4. In our last argument we were horribly disadvantaged by the SUBJECT chosen. She decimated us because her argument was basically "my boss isn't pure evil"... she strongly believed it, and she had evidence on her side... the only thing we really know of him is that the shadow dragon abolished soulsteel, abhors slavers, loves freedom, insists on employeeing people rather then slavery, and that the supposedly Ebon dragon had to be fundamentally altered in a major way in personality to transform into the shadow dragon.
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No. 64482 ID: bf54a8

where are you getting 5 souls? we have 2 in front of us, we have no more. we cannot pull souls out of nowhere.
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No. 64483 ID: 3734f6

>>64463
Went ahead and extrapolated from the estimated function:
L6: 3.59/day (actually 4l, estimations is under value)
L7: 16.4/day
L8: 74.8/day
L9: 340.92/day (aka 14.205/hour aka 4.22 minutes per each)

remember we are currently L2 and get +2 for 5 motes and predetermination.
Cost (incremental, total) to arrive at level (including upgrading saulana's SF to remain stable)
L5: 6, 6, pays off total cost in 6 days
L6: 9, 15, pays off total cost in 3.75 days
L7: 12, 27, pays off total cost in 1.65 days
L8: 15, 42, pays off total cost in 13.47 hours
L9: 18, 60, pays off total cost in 4.22 hours
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No. 64485 ID: b978d0

>>64477
As I've said before, upgrading Wordblood so that he can read and write thoughts into others minds in a sustained manner (ie, keep an open channel), in combination with knowing Peregin's true name, should give us at least walkie-talkie like remote communication capability. That wouldn't give him the ability to proactively contact us, but should be good enough for the time being. Upgraded enough we could possibly swing a "Peregrin" book being created in Wordblood's library that would allow us to read his thoughts and write in our own messages back to him. Likely such an internal artefact would require the expenditure of 1+ TW though, with possible other requirements in addition to the power we already hold over him.

>>64480
In the short term I don't think I'd recommend raising SF above 3. That would likely raise red flags for all our guests, which could be quite bad right now.
Growing too quickly could be just as dangerous for us as not growing quickly enough after all. We've pretty much already determined that we will be discovered before we're powerful enough to defend ourself from the powers that be should they decide to squash us like a bug.
Besides, how far exactly could we push our consumption up that exponential scale before we're scavenging enough that it's no longer scavenging. I'd rather not find out the hard way, as that way involves us getting beat down for our transgression.

I do agree that we're not nearly as helpless in social combat as some are making out. Sure the odds were against us in our last encounter, but suddenly becoming powerful enough to curb-stomp our opponent would completely undermine the point of beating her in social combat to begin with. More even keeled upgrades, a more aggressively proactive attitude, and care in choosing/directing subject matter should allow us to tip the scales back to our favour without creating a suspicious upset.
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No. 64486 ID: 70c0f2

>If we don't enough souls then we lose. We might win an argument tomorrow... but then what?

This seems to be the biggest bone of contention your plan raises. You seem intent on the purpose of gather power for power's sake- regardless of the moral cost. I'm sorry, but some of aren't out to consume as many souls as quickly as possible to make ourself as big as possible as fast as possible. There are other considerations.

>Hence only estimate 2 TW at a 4/day rate.
That's assuming we generate TW at a constant rate. For all we know, it might be a step function. Rather than getting 1 point every 6 hrs, we might have to wait the full 24 before getting all 4 at once.
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No. 64488 ID: cee89f

>>64480
He doesn't NEED to use it before sunup - 4 a day, if we go all the way up to what you were suggesting. EXCEPT THAT IT'S ALREADY NIGHT. WE DON'T HAVE A FULL DAY.

>There is no long game short game going on.
YES. THERE. IS. That's what happens when your long term goals (get TW easily) and your short term (keep independent) are in conflict. The fact you aren't thinking about it when making your decision doesn't mean there ISN'T one.

>If we eat enough souls now and apply the TW correctly we would have to eat the absolute minimum amount of souls.
>If we starve ourselves then we will eat many more souls later to compensate.

Don't really get what this has to do with potentially putting all of our TW into a function that is purely long-term. Remember, we don't have a full day before the sun comes up (granted, DS could keep the sun down for months, but from what Askalaff said I don't think it'll stay down for too long, and Kairosa might have to feed on time as it flows, so she'd have to count a day as dawn-dusk-dawnagain anyway) so any improvements we give to Kairosa's feeding ability are strictly long-term.

It's moot until we find out how much TW we have anyway, but it really ticks me off that you assume there is no rational argument against improving her abilities when we can't even guarantee a return by the time it'll be useful.

>4 efficiency isn't about "rushing economy" or neglecting everything else... its the point at which passive TW generation becomes viable. The longer we wait on it the more souls total we would have to eat... the ONLY question is how many souls we are going to have to eat... and what kind of innocents we would be forced to gobble to survive if we stupidly starve ourselves too much.

The problem is that, even at that stage, our return isn't guaranteed to help us out of this jam.

>1. We can use TW to cheat.
Heroes can sense titan powers if we actively use them on each other (Peregrin brought that up) and it's very likely that if DS even suspects what's going on, he sent someone who can detect titan powers.

>2. We can use moon abilities with power points from devas without triggernig soul flare.
We've sworn NOT to use magical influence on Akatrina, remember?

>3. We can have an utterly obscene pool of power allowing us to dominate them all (not to mention par is on our side) and can even keep a condemned in the head for an instant recharge.
Oh, so we've gone from getting our asses handed to us to 'guaranteed to win' in half a thread, eh? Gonna have to trace how THAT happened for me.

Besides, that 'recharge' will make our Soul Fire flare.

>4. In our last argument we were horribly disadvantaged by the SUBJECT chosen. She decimated us because her argument was basically "my boss isn't pure evil"... she strongly believed it, and she had evidence on her side... the only thing we really know of him is that the shadow dragon abolished soulsteel, abhors slavers, loves freedom, insists on employeeing people rather then slavery, and that the supposedly Ebon dragon had to be fundamentally altered in a major way in personality to transform into the shadow dragon.
A subject she chose for herself because diplomacy is her BEST SKILL. She's an experienced Death Hero and she was holding back - no boosts, on us or Askalaff.
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No. 64489 ID: 3734f6

>YES. THERE. IS. That's what happens when your long term goals (get TW easily) and your short term (keep independent) are in conflict.
They are NOT IN CONFLICT.
It doesn't matter how many TW you think we should spend before tomorrow on social skills. If the value of TW you think we should spend is X. Regardless of what X is we will need to spend X+15 (or X+10 if X includes upgrading saulana) TW to be self sufficient.
We can eat the souls needed to reach X+15 now, or we can just enough for X and then get the +15 later. It doesn't matter to me.
The longer we wait until we eat the souls needed to get the +15 the more souls would have been wasted. We might as well eat Y souls before spending X (taking under 10 minutes) because that will increase the gains from each soul. And the longer you wait the more desperate you would be when pressed to the wall and forced to eat nice people or die.

The only possible alternative is if you delude yourself into thinking we can eat enough souls to get X TW, spend it on social now. And then just WAIT for MONTHS while our passive income goes from a pittance to a reasonable quantity.

Bah, personally I think we should eat enough souls to get 60TW for the L9 (starting from the worst of the worst criminals and working up)... then in the next ~84.4 minutes (estimate) bring up wordblood to SF6 to match saulanna and Kairosa. And use the hundred triple digit TW generated between now and dawn to boost ourselves all around.
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No. 64490 ID: 406926

>>64489
>Bah, personally I think we should eat enough souls to get 60TW for the L9 (starting from the worst of the worst criminals and working up)
To be clear, given that the slavers are the only other two souls on hand, you're suggesting that we command Peregrin to bring us additional fodder to devour?
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No. 64492 ID: f2c20c

Right now we have Efficiency 2, and Kairosa is SL 2 (thanks for the correction). She can, by locking 5 Power to the task, effectively act at Efficiency 3. Lastly, by choosing ahead of time what we want to put the TW she generates into, it gets boosted again, to Efficiency 4. Efficiency 4 is 1 TW/week. Still too slow, I agree. Upgrading her Efficiency twice would net us 4/day, which is a good target for now! Personally though I think we should wait until after we consume the slaver souls before deciding what to spend the TW on. We don't actually know how much TW we're going to get from them! We might even get enough to do everything we want all at once! In that case arguing about whether or not to aim for Efficiency 4 is pointless.

I would also like to note here that there is absolutely no inherent drawback to increasing our Beauty right now. It is subtle enough for people to just assume Saulanna cleaned herself up a bit; we've been told this. The only thing we would be concerned about there is its cost, and I personally believe it's worth the cost.


Anyway I urge all of you to stop arguing so much about how to spend TW we don't even have yet.
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No. 64495 ID: 3734f6

> The fact you aren't thinking about it when making your decision doesn't mean there ISN'T one.
Of course I am thinking about it.
I just don't accept your argument that an investment that pays itself off in hours to at most a couple of days and then keeps on paying forever is a "long term v short term" analysis. Hours to a couple of days IS SHORT TERM.
Long term is months, years... At a pinch weeks.
To clarify: Energy improvement are good long term AND very short term. Delaying them is bad decision long term AND short term. Hence its not a short v long term. We all agree energy improvement is good in long term. I am arguing it is the superior choice in short term thanks to super fast ROI.

>We've sworn NOT to use magical influence on Akatrina, remember?
The 2 lunars are the ones who are planning to kidnap us at sunup.

>>64492
>Personally though I think we should wait until after we consume the slaver souls before deciding what to spend the TW on
Sensible point. But it should be noted that each + to efficiency increases the amount of TW we get from each soul consumed. If we upgraded after each soul consumed before eating the next we would end up saving a few extra TW. And if the slavers both together come up too few TW? We will HAVE to more... now or later. The question is merely who and when.

A huge point btw is what is going to happen next.
If the lunars kidnap us tomorrow, we don't reveal our titanhood, and we refuse tattoos then we are stuck being unable to eat souls (witnesses) or use titan powers for a good amount of time and with a mere 1/week for the next 6 weeks (which would have to all go into energy so we get 1/day).
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No. 64496 ID: 3734f6

>>64490
This is a mid sized nation! The "slavers" (soul steel harvesters more like it, they sold people to soul steel forgers!) were carefully chosen to be not too evil as to not traumatize us yet just evil enough that even someone as squeamish as us will agree to eat them. It is not plausible that 1 soulsteel forger and 2 soul steel harvesters are the only condemned they have. I bet there are those condemned to death who are more evil than those soulsteel harvesters, and some less evil than them who are still evil enough to justify not using unholy magic to prevent them from reincarnating. Par is coddling us due to our extreme finnickyness about eating thus far.

However, even if we do have to choose from "lesser criminals" who don't quite warrant an "execution" (already dead), it is better we eat those than the alternative which is to force ourselves into a corner and be forced to choose between eating an innocent or suffering a fate worse then death...

And the reason I went into all this trouble with showing the math is to minimize the souls consumption needed to the absolute minimum. This horrible naivete of thinking we can't delay semi-friendlies a single day with our current assets (including par and spending a few TW as 1 time consumables) AND/OR must starve ourselves so we can't get everything now without having to pick and choose (at the "cost" of actually eating the condemned), and that somehow everything will work out for us despite screwing ourselves at every turn will be our downfall.

At the very least we could carry the worst criminals that they have in the nation in our head in case of an emergency (we can always release them uneaten back into prison if we don't end up needing them). (although of course that is horribly inefficient compared to eating them now).

>>64485
A good argument against going crazy with social skills and curb stomping them... but we could still go crazy with TW production and deva making. They have no way of detecting our soul force nor that of our devas. It will take significant effort of a major god or a titan to see into our inner. What they could see is only our soul flare which requires saulanna to spend her own moonpower (can be kept hidden via devas spending their power on it instead)
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No. 64497 ID: 63f851

>>64493
Let me try arguing this a different way: As far as this story goes, we've just passed another milestone: The creation of our first new Deva. Yes, in the long term Kairosa is meant to generate "free" TW for us, but in the short term she's meant to help us manage all our power: The TW from consuming those ghosts, the usage of that TW in improving ourselves, and using our Moon/Time/Word powers. Additionally, she's solidified our Titan-ness and expands our view of reality. But you know what she hasn't done? Made us more powerful than the other Exalts we've dealt with so far. You're trying to have us somehow skip a level, because the point at which we can gain Lots/Day TW is clearly indicated as another milestone in our development. Besides, consuming ghosts is not the only way we can gain TW, and there's all the reason in the world to, after next chapter's social-warfare, go on an epic quest to, say, eat the remains of the shattered calendar of the underworld.

Besides all that, you've already made your points several times over and continuing to do so is just gonna cause emotions to flare. Unless you have actual new arguments, please just accept that we disagree with you for now. You're failing to convince us, and clearly we're failing to convince you, so our debate isn't going anywhere.
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No. 64498 ID: 9b155d

>>64477
Normal Exalts are not outside of Fate. They can defy fate when they use their powers, but they are normally inside of fate. Well, except Infernals who are outside of Fate and Abyssals whose Fate is difficult to perceive.

>>64496
The fact that you think Exalted have no way of detecting Soulforce is worrying. Using normal Exalted as a base here, as it's the only thing we have to gon, let's ignore the number of charms and sorcery that have different effects depending on Essence rating, you can directly determine someone's Essence with Essence Disecting Stare (Infernals), Measure the Wind (Spirits) All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight (Solars) and well, frankly everyone has some variance of All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight. Hell, there are charms to determine genealogy at a glance.

Point being, you're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about how safe we are and how easily we can hide changes to ourselves.
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No. 64501 ID: 3734f6

>>64497
The first part is pure meta and makes certain dangerous assumptions. And potentially taken as condescending (not sure if that was your intent)

I have only ever restated points in the process of clarifying where my arguments were being misrepresented. I am fine with disagreement as long as there is clarity and honesty.

As for the "we" vs "you" part... there are multiple issues being discussed with different opinion spreads on each.

I don't think there is any anger flaring here on any side.
If you actually want to stop a debate its best to just stop participating in it, or at least limit yourself to a "lets agree to disagree" without two paragraphs of (potentially condescending) arguments first.

>>64498
Only if by "assumptions" (plural) you mean a singular "assumption" that is actually a quote of what wordblood told us in quest when we asked him rather then me "assuming". I would grant you I could have misunderstood, although I would take a more solid argument than that to show me that I have.
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No. 64503 ID: 3734f6

>>64498
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Measure_the_Wind
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Essence-Dissecting_Stare
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:All-Encompassing_Sorcerer%27s_Sight

Where do you get SF=essence?
All three would probably allow them to see how many essence motes saulanna can have in her MP pool. But based on wordblood's assurance, I see no reason why it would allow them to detect the auxiliary souls within the inner world, their SF, or their motes. If anything, a more likely scenario is a suspicious inability to detect her exaltation due to it being in the inner world (at least some of the above abilities can also be resisted; and essence pools can get very large for exalted).
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No. 64504 ID: 70acd0

>>64493
I wouldn't assume that they can't detect changes in our soul force. While they may not be able to accurately gauge our exact abilities, bumping up a power level bracket would likely be noticeable enough to justify them reporting back "warrants further investigation" rather than "everything's under control for now." They don't need to see into our inner world or exact power ratings after all, just get a general sense of relative power.
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No. 64506 ID: 3734f6

>>64504
This is a fair argument. Even if all they can sense is a 3 mote increase to our pool.
This is a problem though with almost all upgrades we can come up with with the exception of perhaps small alteration to stats like beauty and strength
The only possible solution I can think of for it is get a stealth deva ASAP.

Also, do we have any idea what are plans are except for "kick ass in social fu tomorrow"?
The lunars intend to kidnap us at dawn and the dragon's emissary probably knows what we are.

As far as I can tell our options are:
1. Go with lunars (willingly or un), refuse tattoos but begin making friends and earning goodwill.
2. Go to shadow dragon (at least to see what he wants).
3. Run to the labyrinth to search for a titan fragment to eat. - probably too weak.
4. Stir trouble (lock up this land like the dragon shadow locked up the underworld) - bad idea.
5. Convince both to leave for a bit so you can get more powerful before doing one of the above.
6. Try to ally with both factions at once. - will be difficult

It seems wise to choose early. Unless they expose us as titan there is little I can see them saying that should influence the choice between 1 and 2. And careless delaying without deciding ahead of time and first making clear we intend to go to them soon could garner bad will with either faction.
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No. 64507 ID: f2c20c

Guys, if they could look at our soul force in any way, they would be able to see that we had two soul forces in play. As in, Saulanna's and Wordblood's. I really really really doubt they can see our Titanic power in such a direct manner.

Upgrading ourselves in internal ways must be safe, or else we have no way to gain power safely, in which case we should just throw caution to the wind anyway.
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No. 64509 ID: f2c20c

>>64506
Wait why the hell do you think the Lunars are going to kidnap us at dawn?

Oh, this is a fucking stupid argument, isn't it? I'm going to just hide this damn thread since it's completely useless.
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No. 64510 ID: 9b155d

>>64503
In Exalted, Essence is the name of both the pool of energy as well as the equivalent of Soul Force. The name covers both stats. You'll notice the wiki doesn't give the exact details of the charms, and in respect of that(You can buy the books yourself) neither will I but I'll quote this from All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight "The character can automatically recognize a creature with Essence 4+ as a supernatural creature." and point out that there's also a bit about if you make a conscious effort to analyze someone you can get their exact essence.

As for knowing that Soul Force is Essence, though on a different scale, here's a post from Jukashi
>>52425
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No. 64511 ID: 9b155d

>>64507
Given what we've been told about the difficulty of perceiving our Inner World from the outside and the relative ease of gaining essence sight I find it unlikely the two are linked.
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No. 64514 ID: 3734f6

>>64509
Meant to say "probably". as for why >>/questarch/463069
My guess is that Askalaff would try to convince us again with magic persuasion on and if we still act difficult probably will try it Garmir's way by teleporting the 2 of them and saulanna aka kidnap. Can't be certain of course.

>>64510
Thank you.
Barring a stealth deva then they likely will detect saulanna's SF increase. But not her deva's growth.

I just realized an issue
>>/questarch/463069
He says we "smell wrong"... titan sensing? If we go back with them and meet a bunch of other lunars isn't it likely someone there will be able to recognize that?
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No. 64515 ID: cee89f

>>64495
Days? Hell no. Hours? Maybe. But we're getting 4 a day, so... 1 every 6 hours? That's nowhere near fast enough to be of use.

>To clarify: Energy improvement are good long term AND very short term. Delaying them is bad decision long term AND short term. Hence its not a short v long term. We all agree energy improvement is good in long term. I am arguing it is the superior choice in short term thanks to super fast ROI.
It's not fast ENOUGH, is the problem.

>The only possible alternative is if you delude yourself into thinking we can eat enough souls to get X TW, spend it on social now. And then just WAIT for MONTHS while our passive income goes from a pittance to a reasonable quantity.
Your option is to increase two different aspects to 3 and then to 4 - that's 14, 11 if Efficiency's already at 3 (i don't remember). In order to keep Saulanna's supremacy secure, we need to raise her soul force as well. So that's another 7, making 21 or 18, depending. Our last soul was powerful as all crap and gave us 6. Even if both of these souls had that, that's 12.

21 TW (or even just 18) is a HUGE investment, and not something we're definitively going to have. Even then, the TW growth from it is not going to be strong enough to make drying ourselves worth it short term. We would have Wordblood with no further upgrades, and we go into the same fight, the only differences that matters being that we have a higher soul force and a second voice that can 'heal' us?

Long term, it's only real flaw is that we don't know if we're going to have enough TW for it. THAT'S why there's a conflict: it's very good for one of the two, very bad for the other.

>The 2 lunars are the ones who are planning to kidnap us at sunup.
And Akatrina has until then to convince us to go into the Underworld. SHE'S a threat too, just a different one.
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No. 64517 ID: 70acd0

>>64505
>This is a problem though with almost all upgrades we can come up with with the exception of perhaps a single point of beauty.
That is true, though there is wiggle room when dealing with vague feelings of power levels. For example, they don't seem to be treating us as if we had a total power level of two entities, only like the singular entity they were expecting (albeit with the gut feeling that something's off). As such, they can likely only really perceive the portion of ourselves that intercepts the outside world, Saulanna herself.

>Also, do we have any idea what are plans are except for "kick ass in social fu tomorrow"?
Not exactly, we've got quite a few things to do before we'll know enough about what cards we have to play to make a defined plan. I did make some suggestions earlier regarding a backstory, which was fleshed out nicely by others, so that's a start maybe.

>The lunars intend to kidnap us at dawn and the dragon's emissary probably knows what we are.
I'm not sure that's exactly a bad thing in the short term. They're not exactly enemies, nor are they dead set on preventing us from returning either. Travel would also buy us some time to figure out a peaceful way to get out of the tattoos without outright refusing them. Time that Akatrina wouldn't be able to be directly interfering with us without pissing off the others and risking outright conflict.

>1. Go with lunars (willingly or un), refuse tattoos but begin making friends and earning goodwill.
Probably our most viable escape route at this point.

>2. Go to shadow dragon (at least to see what he wants).
That sounds more like walking into a trap, and I don't think we're ready for that daring of a move.

>3. Run to the labyrinth to search for a titan fragment to eat. - probably too weak.
I believe there was discussion about not being able to get out again, so yeah, probably too weak to pull this off quite yet.

>4. Stir trouble (lock up this land like the dragon shadow locked up the underworld) - bad idea.
Agreed

>5. Convince both to leave for a bit so you can get more powerful before doing one of the above.
We've already played the stall card, I don't think we'll get away with more at this point.

>6. Try to ally with both factions at once. - will be difficult
I don't think that Saulanna is really the double agent type. Then again, we're already a ways down this path with the power we hold over Peregrin...

>It seems wise to choose early. Unless they expose us as titan there is little I can see them saying that should influence the choice between 1 and 2. And careless delaying without deciding ahead of time and first making clear we intend to go to them soon could garner bad will with either faction.
We will need to act decisively once we rejoin the others, we've already tried their patience as is so best not to push them too much. We are a ways away from needing to finalize any plans though, and have infinitely more time than they do to consider such plans, what with internal time being almost completely disjuncted from external time. Plenty to do before we rejoin the others that will have serious implications on what options are available. That said, we can tentatively plan ahead.

When we do rejoin the others I'd suggest sharing our backstory. If that goes well we should be able to maintain our relationship public relationship with Peregrin, along with maintaining his little kingdom as a sort of home base. From there it would be reasonable to willingly go along with the lunar duo for the usual lunar boot camp, though preferrably the abridged version. We'd have some time to reassess while in transit, and would likely have an easier time convincing the lunars we're not an imediate chimera threat when they're not in neutral/enemy territory.
While one of them is somewhat offensive in behaviour, they've shown no signs that we should really distrust them. They are just following lunar traditions in trying to bring new lunars into the fold to prevent them from going batshit insane and turning into the kinds of monsters they normally try to protect creation from. If we do decide to formally reveal our titanic nature to Luna then she may be able to help us get along with the lunar tribe, but at this point I'm thinking that we probably will be able to work out an amicable solution on our own. Way too many unknowns to really figure this path out much further, other than getting to know the two current lunars better and maybe earning their trust a bit while in transit.

Who knows, maybe Luna will end up being so pleased with us confiding in her that she'll throw a moonbeam disco party for us, thus giving the lunar tribe a sign that we don't need tattoos. Or she could go all creepy face on us, crashing the moon into creation in 3 days...
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No. 64518 ID: 9b155d

When did we switch from thinking the Lunars were the more immediate threat to wanting to go with them? Saulanna feels hostility and contempt for them, and I'm not fond of the idea of being around Lunar Elders who can social foo us into the ground without any real allies around. If we get word that the Dragon's Shadow is headed here himself or if we get outed then sure let's leave as soon as possible, but as is Peregrin is a hell of a boon and once day breaks, if we're so desperate not to be in a Shadowland, we can set up somewhere near-by in Creation proper.

Akatrina isn't likely going to be here forever, so if we can get capable enough to persevere with the help of Wordblood and Kairosa then we are in a pretty damn good spot to grow. Not every Exalted has the benefit of an older Exalt with a stable base of operations being bound to serve them. Throwing that away out of paranoia is foolish.
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No. 64519 ID: 70c0f2

What's this "run with the lunars" or "run off to the dragon's shadow" shit?

I thought the plan was to find a way to assuage Kat's suspicions so she reports back to the dragon's shadow that nothing's up, and to convince the lunars to leave us here. Then we pretend to be a nice, normal, naive lunar staying as the guest of Peregrin Kaan. We leave the lunars the impression we're playing one game, and we leave TDS the impression that Kaan is playing us, and that he stll controls Kaan. In reality, we get a nice little puppet shadow-kingdom we can run through Peregrin while we learn and grow stronger in relative safety.

Don't forget- Peregrin is responsible for the people here, and when he became our vassal, they became our responsibility too. We got a little kingdom and a bunch of ghost people to look out for. They're more than just a potential source of Titan's Will.
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No. 64520 ID: 70acd0

>>64518
My general idea was to return asap to resume our normal operations of hunting down artifacts, keeping the visit quick.

That said, I can't really refute your assessment of the risks involved in cooperating with the lunars. I still don't think we should write them off as hostiles/enemies though.

Being able to find a way to gain the lunars as allies is part of why I've been advocating admitting our nature to Luna. We are a lunar ourselves after all, even if we're far from the norm and getting further.

I'd also like to point out that we've only been insulted by one of the lunars, the other being pretty civil. The insulting one being quite obviously a full moon that is more in touch with his instinctive animal side than he is with his rational human side, and brutally honest as a result. With how confused and skittish we've been, I'd be surprised if their current plan didn't boil down to "rescue the damsel." Getting our wits about us and acting more confident would go a long way towards taking the wind out of that plans sails.

On a bit of a tangent: We could pass off our "odd smell" as being a side effect of our treasure hunting profession. Most people would avoid the ruins we seek out for a reason after all.
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No. 64522 ID: 70acd0

>>64519
And this is why it's good that I'm not in charge of making the plans :P
Much more reasonable route that I'd put out of my mind for some reason...
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No. 64524 ID: 3734f6

>>64517
Seems pretty sensible all around. I will look up the backstory you wrote.
Although... lies can trap you. Wouldn't it be best to just say we do not want to talk about the past?

>>64518
>>64519
For how long can we remain hidden though? Would we not eventually be found out. At which point squandering the good will of the dragon shadow and lunar elders might be something we regret.

The lunars do not force tattoos if they are to be believed. So the main risk of going with them is somehow being found out as a titan. Bootcamp is short and useful and provides us with connection as well as being a hell of a lot less suspicious then staying here. And we can return in a few months (and we can keep in touch until said return).

The social Fu is concerning though. Maybe play up the bondmates suspicion? convince them that we want to set our mortal affairs in order first and will come for training in a season. Par can swear to protect us while we are his guest. We can promise not to use mind decaying magics (lucky us we are immune so it isn't a lie) until we come to bootcamp unless its to save our life and if you have to you will come at once. And get a stealth deva made before going to mask our true power and nature.

>>64520
I don't think we should actually bring up our "odd smell". Its a suspiciously specific denial and plus they might sense dishonesty from us. If anyone brings it up, just glare at them.
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No. 64526 ID: 3734f6

>>64069
>Once Peregrin found out we were a Lunar, we opened negotiations and came to a mutually satisfying arrangement
We overheard them telling par they don't believe him that the new lunar is safe because they tracked the lunar and found blood and an obvious fight location. And didn't we even admit to fighting him when we explained?
Also what if details of the arrangement are asked for? suspicious. Between a death knight and a lunar who just stole from him? (luckily our guide pair didn't press the issue when we told before)

Lies are dangerous, you snare yourself with them. If the truth isn't suitable use half truth, if it doesn't do refuse to answer, if you are coerced then make the lies small and simple.
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No. 64527 ID: 38cd76

>>64526
I think the idea was that the fight breaking out, was how Peregrin found out we were a lunar.

More trouble than he wanted to deal with, so we opened negotiations.
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No. 64529 ID: 629257

>>64527
I say we leave making up the story of what happened up to Peregrin, he'd know better at what would sound plausible. At least, after getting our own pre-amnesia history explained in case that matters.
>>
No. 64530 ID: fb9917

I wouldn't necessarily mind going with the lunars for a while. I wouldn't even mind getting the tattoos if we managed to split off a deva appropriate for dealing with the issue beforehand(Stealth/Masks would be really appropriate, I think), but we still have a couple things to do around here to get to, and it's somewhat irritating that the lunars don't seem interested in giving us any time. Also, while we do have to devote some TW to energy production, we only need to spend 4 to get to 1 a day, which is pretty good. Within a week we could upgrade that using the TW we got from it. Anything we get on top of the first 3 TW we get from these ghosts is potentially expendable on stuff that will solve our immediate issues. I'd like to spend a little more than just the bare minimum on Kairosa, but I also don't want to be completely dominated in social combat next time we meet Akatrina, so upgrading Wordblood seems like a good idea too!

Also the whole artifact hunter background is really good because it can even be true! There are tons of awesome things to collect all over Creation, and sometimes outside of it. Including titan fragments. Don't mention those though.
>>
No. 64531 ID: 63f851

If we go with the scavenger backstory, Akatrina is gonna suspect that one of the things we're scavenging for might be a Titan fragment. Remember, Kaan thinks that D-Shadow suspects Titany stuff. Or possibly just 'normal' demonic incursion. How should we play that?
>>
No. 64532 ID: fb9917

>>64531
Hmm. Kaan was looking for titan fragments before, though, wasn't he? I mean that's how he found one, obviously. Did the Dragon know he was looking? And is there any reason for him to have stopped looking? We could just be a dupe he is using in his plan to find titan fragments...someone as useful as a Lunar Exalt doesn't necessarily have to know the details of what they are looking for to be very valuable when it comes to finding it.

If the Dragon didn't know Kaan was looking for titan fragments I'm not sure that's likely to be a direct issue, although we might have to worry about others being sent out to find fragments. Where did Kaan find what he had, anyways?
>>
No. 64533 ID: b978d0

>>64531
I believe the original suggestion was something along these lines:
We attempted a raid on Peregrin's library in order to dig up leads, that lead to our scuffle and eventual mutual understanding / working relationship. Before we could actually dig in to the library to turn up any relevant leads our guests showed up. As such, we legitimately don't know exactly what we're looking for yet.

>>64062
That's my initial back story suggestion, with several good comments made by others following. Strategic application of Kairosa's abilities would also allow us to fill in the gaps with as much truth as possible.
(... and now I have the mental image of Kairosa thoughtfully gnawing on Saulanna's shoulder...)

On a bit of a tangent, I bet Kairosa's ability to taste the past would be capable of determining once and for all whether Peregrin is actually our bondmate, though she'd likely have to taste our lunar exaltation first to know what flavour to look for. If he was, that could play out well for us as the Lunar duo have already considered that as a plausible reason for our presence here and justification for our wanting to stick around here in the long term. If not, then we'd at least know for sure.
>>
No. 64534 ID: 9b155d

Man, people forget things quick.

>I'm not from around here. I'm quite a scholar, you see, and I came here looking to learn things. I and Peregrin had a... misunderstanding... and I, well, ended up with some of his property in my possession.

>Eventually the... circumstances of that misunderstanding led to my becoming a Moon Hero, and soon afterwards we might have gotten a bit... confrontational, you could say. But I gave a good enough account of myself with my new powers that we decided to stop fighting. We came to an... arrangement. So, I don't have anything that doesn't belong to me any more, and Peregrin lets me learn whatever I liked from his collection. Which is good, right? I don't want to pass up that opportunity, do I?
>>
No. 64539 ID: 3734f6

I wonder who are par's and saulanna's bondmates (respectively). That would be one thing to look for with keirosas ability.
>>
No. 64543 ID: b6edd6

It might be worth trying to use that past-reading thing on Peregrin to get around his oaths to keep the Dragon's secrets. (Of course, telling him that is what we are specifically after might oath-force him to react, but testing new magic senses in general on him is a good idea anyway because we can then compare our findings to his own experiences.)
>>
No. 64545 ID: 9a5304

>>64441
>>64463
>>64480
>>64483
>math

Noooooooo my one weakness (of many)!

>>64431

To clarify: Soul Force is essentially a combination of Essence and Willpower from the original game. It gives minor, broad upgrades to a lot of powers; for example, some abilities might work better on creatures that have a lower Soul Force than Saulanna does. Soul Force is also used as a marker for the generic strength of Saulanna's soul; the amount of Will Points you get in social combat is based on your Soul Force and your Discipline (hence magical creatures become more stubborn and willful as they gain power). SF is also used to calculate your Power pools.

Specific abilities are not hugely modified by Soul Force, though. Since you guys like numbers, and Kariosa could tell you anyway, I'll say that the amount of TW you get from a soul is basically equal to its Soul Force plus an extra amount based on Efficiency of Consumption (though there's a maximum from each soul based on its SF, too). In the case of Efficiency, your Soul Force has essentially no purpose except to raise the cap on how many levels of Efficiency you can have; unless perhaps some magical force was interfering with the process, in which case SF might be used to see if you overcome that, but that's an unlikely eventuality.
>>
No. 64549 ID: b978d0

>>64534
Ha, I had completely forgotten about that.
(Rereads the quest thread...)

Looks like only the lunar duo we told that story. We need to get Peregrin up to speed on it, in addition to fleshing it out enough so that we won't get caught easily on any holes. Truth before fabrication of course, with "none of your business" being a valid response to most questions that dig too deeply.

>>64545
Heh, I trust you'll prevent this from turning into Titanic Accounting Quest, if only for your own sanity =p

Also, thanks for the clarification. Looks like a more balanced approach of raising SF, followed by bringing abilities up to the new cap, will be the logical route to go. Makes sense to me as there's no use gaining raw power without also developing the ability to apply it.
>>
No. 64550 ID: 3734f6
File 135431840457.jpg - (74.25KB , 800x600 , Math one of Many.jpg )
64550

>Noooooooo my one weakness (of many)!
:)

>>64545
Thank you for the explanation and answers.

If you don't mind me asking a few more. What would wordblood say if asked the following questions:
1. How does one differentiate between what is an element and what is a purpose for a deva? (especially considering he mentioned some are on a grey area between a purpose and an element)
2. Can something that is the grey area between a purpose and an element be both a deva's purpose AND element at the same time? If yes, is there a benefit/drawback to it?
3. What are the lordly devas purpose / element combinations for Gaia that he knows.
3. What were the lordly devas purpose / element that his previous incarnation had?
4. Are Love/Compassion/Bonds/Connections close enough to each that it would cause problems or would we be able to perhaps use 2 of them. Such as Love and Connections.
5. Is magic a purpose, element, or neither? (Basically: can sorcery, mortal magics, titan workings, words of power, charms, hero abilities, rituals (like the one that made us) etc be said to be "magic" or is it basically an invalid "element" the same way "souls" aren't an element.
6. Since masks is an element (or so I am told), would weapons or armor be elements as well?
7. When 2 purposes are distinct, very similar, and of equal broadness and magnitude. Would it be correct to say that making either a lordly deva will relegate the other to being a noble under it?
8. Wordblood so far mentioned the possibility of making devas for: Feeding, Combat, Healing, Seeing, and Social. Each and every one of those has some dependency on every one of the others, or at least cases of overlap. Its not very major overlap but it exists. How would that be resolved? For example, is Social Combat a subordinate of Combat?, Social?, both? What about combat healing spells?
>>
No. 64552 ID: 629257

It occurs to me that we already have a massive new advantage to our social combat scenarios: unlimited internal dialogue time. We got a large advantage just from Wordblood giving counter arguments, imagine how much of a boon it will be with all three of them taking a time out to pick apart every statement as they come.
>>
No. 64553 ID: 501c8f

>>64552
Ye gods. They already take ages to resolve.
>>
No. 64555 ID: 70acd0

>>64553
It would be a much more potent ability if it affected this side of the 4th wall. As such, it still allows the ability to ponder plans, squabble over semantics, wax philosophical, and maybe even come up with a few good ideas, all in no-time-flat from an external viewpoint.

Not the infinite time to deliberate that it could be, but if utilized to that level we'd become disconnected from creation, including our own body, in very short order.
>>
No. 64569 ID: cee89f

Gallifreyan is AWESOME.

That is all.

>>64552
Eh, we already had that, from Saulanna's perspective. And from ours, nothing's really changed. The main differences are now we can bring people in and slow them down, and Saulanna is aware of it.
>>
No. 64570 ID: c59939

>>64569
no, you know how wordblood made a counter argument to regain willpower for saulanna?

That, but with all the time in the world to work on it.
>>
No. 64571 ID: 406926

>>64570
Exactly this. Depending upon how flexibly we can use this internal world, we basically have become able to fully heal ourselves every round in social combat- anything that doesn't beat us in one argument can't convince us of anything, unless we either want to be convinced of it or our devas are for some reason unwilling to help us out.
>>
No. 64577 ID: cee89f

>>64570
>>64571

Except we've already DONE the time-freeze thing and it had NO bearing on the healing ability wordblood possessed.

Remember that REALLY long period near the end of that social combat where we spent a couple of weeks going over our options?

Saulanna withdrew into her own mind and FROZE TIME IN THERE. We already HAD the power for Wordblood, Saulanna and Kairosa to think over it for a long time. Sure, Kairosa can heal us now but that's not because of the time-stop ability
>>
No. 64580 ID: 603e75

You can use the internal time manipulation to get more will healing, but there's two problems.

One: unlike in physical combat, where you can just say "punch them" over and over, you can't keep saying the same thing over and over in social combat and get much effect. Remember, the numbers are a representation of arguments being made. If the devas can't think of anything to say to refute a point, then they can't heal you.

Two: Saulanna's very smart, but she can't switch between two timeframes willy-nilly without being a bit disorientated. The longer she stays "inside", the more of an "ok what was I doing?" moment there'll be when she gets back. If she keeps switching to internal time to get lectured, people will notice her expression and body language change when she switches outward again. She'll come across as being weirdly dispassionate or having unpredictable mood swings.

Also, as a more general point... the two devas are both exceedingly loyal (required to be, actually, by nature of titanic heirarchy), but they aren't necessarily exceedingly obedient. They can have their own opinions on things, and while loyalty is one thing, respect is another. If they disagree with Saulanna on something, and don't trust her judgement over their own, they're completely capable of acting against her wishes. This is one reason why making Saulanna a smarty mcsmartperson was actually a really good idea; they know she's smart, and so they listen more. It's actually a function of the same subsurface relationship system that every character in the quest uses; the friendly-to-hostile, fear-to-contempt scales that controlled emotional state in social combat before, as represented by the colour shade on the virtue stars. There's a temporary state and a permanent state. Basically, Saulanna's devas are always maxed out on permanent affection, but their fear and contempt can still shade up and down, allowing them to range from respecting Saulanna to pitying her (in the bad sense of pity).

This little unseen minigame may become harder depending on how many and what kind of devas Saulanna gets, because they can each have different standards for what earns their respect or reduces it. It's also important to remember that they're not human and can have strange values. And the further down the deva scale you go (Lord>Noble>Common), the more narrow-minded a deva is likely to be. This why demons are feared: they're not really evil, just alien. If Malfeas expresses his rage by making red-furred gorilla monsters to be his go-to rip-and-tear muscle guys, then those guys are going to want to rip and tear. It's what they were made for, and it's very hard for them to understand when you want them to not do that, and even harder to convince them why they should care what you think, because ripping and tearing is what their lives are about, man-thing. Or if the Ebon Dragon had/has some little bugs that exist to eat poison, then the only way you'll convince them to not drink all the booze in your bar is to promise them more booze later (or threaten them with no booze ever again). Now, demons are admittedly worse than devas in this regard, since they're subject to the obsessive madness that keeps their progenitors imprisoned within themselves, but still; when you make any deva, the scale of importance they'll operate on is 1: the prosperity of their progenitor, 2: performing their own personal purpose and 3: everything else. You can make devas who are better at it (Wordblood, for example, is literally made of understanding, and his purpose is to help others), but if you're not careful you can also make devas that are worse.

Though it's not like this setting has an in-built "right" value system, anyway. Travel a bit and you'll find plenty of weird creatures, gods, demons and even humans who don't think what matters to you matters at all. The only universal value is power.
>>
No. 64582 ID: 3734f6

>>64580
Interesting. This reminds me when in erfworld Maggie cast suggestion on her lord out of loyalty and ordered him to appoint parson as chief warlord.
Disobedience out of loyalty makes sense when one is absolutely sure their master is wrong and needs to be protected from themselves.
>>
No. 64584 ID: 603e75

May be a delay on updates, by the way, since I have some crucial essays to do for college this week.
>>
No. 64585 ID: 8e0f9d

>>64584

damn you, real life! damn youuuuuuuu
>>
No. 64586 ID: 70c0f2

>Gallifreyan is AWESOME.
>That is all.
I thought it was a really nice subtle touch, actually. Wordblood said all of a Titan's Devas influence each other to some degree. Kairosa starting out playing with her name in a time-language? That's his legacy, right there.

And the mask has to come from our lunar raccoon, of course.
>>
No. 64588 ID: fb9917

>>64584
Jukashi where do you go to school

if someone burns down the school will you still need to work on essays
>>
No. 64589 ID: cee89f

>>64584
>>64585
I know the feeling. This weekend I've got a programming project, two English analyses (not full essays, thank god) and 5 units of literature work to do, probably involving a couple of projects...

(Silver lining: It's just a LOT of work, not difficult work.)

Good luck to ya, Jukashi. Hope you come out of it in one piece.
>>
No. 64591 ID: 406926

>>64580
>One: unlike in physical combat, where you can just say "punch them" over and over, you can't keep saying the same thing over and over in social combat and get much effect.
While this is undoubtedly true in normal social combat, when you bring UMI into it doesn't that logic break down? My understanding is that a Solar can basically repeat the same lines and keep throwing magic behind them until almost anyone cracks and gets brainwashed; that's a big part of what makes them so dangerous. Admittedly you're losing stunt bonuses that way, but considering the die pool sizes involved you hardly need them. Is this impression not correct, or does it not apply in this circumstance, or would it simply require (failing new and specialized Titanic Powers) that the devas actually burn magic to achieve their UMI and thus not truly be infinite?

>Two: Saulanna's very smart, but she can't switch between two timeframes willy-nilly without being a bit disorientated.
This is an issue, but I bet we could get around it with Titanic Abilities as well- or maybe a Past/Memory deva as one of Kairosa's nobles. Something to look into.

>deva respect and Saulanna's stats
Point of curiosity, we've seen Saulanna's stats- what about Wordblood's and Kairosa's? Can we get character sheets for them?
>>
No. 64593 ID: 4c8ba7

>>64591
All UMI effects have a clause that prevents a character from being affected by that effect for some amount of time (a scene, minimum; more, if the effect is particularly costly to resist) after he or she has spent some small amount of willpower points resisting the effect.

Or so I think.

Which, still, has completely no bearing on Lunar Quest, since the only UMI effect we have seen so far was Peregrin's "Come out!" order. As Wordblood did not propose spending MP or some equivalent to Willpower Points, but rather horribly violated his nature through an inversion, there probably isn't such an easy method to resist UMI effects. (And, I would say, there is also a corresponding difficulty in acquiring UMI effects...)
>>
No. 64605 ID: 629257

Just to be clear, is our choice of Time one of the "abstract" elements that impair our basic humanity, or is it close enough relation to the mortal condition to keep our humanity reinforced? My impression so far is that we've more or less broken even but its hard to tell.

>>64580
I wonder if we can have our Devas make Noble and Common souls that serve in a more balanced manner, perhaps that are composed of portions of more than one of our Devas? Could that work or is it strictly subdivisions?
>>
No. 64610 ID: bf54a8

>>64605
pretty sure it has to be sub divisions, you can't have a guy be in charge of one thing and do something else on the side. the closest thing would be nobles or commoners who's job is to ask from stuff from a different deva's group. at the moment that is a non issue but as a titan's inner world get's larger and and the deva's are no longer a hop away it can be. like in autochthon, it would take you a long time to get from one node to another.
>>
No. 64611 ID: 63f851

>>64605
I think mortals have a good grasp on time in general, it's something one thinks about if you've got a clock, calender, or history book around somewhere. Now, more of a big deal is Saulanna. Connection to language and absorption of memories still aren't good stand-ins for proper emotional development of some kind of morality. Us Voices of the Past aren't the best conscience around. As Jukashi said, the most universal voice is power, but we should all know that what's more important than power is what one does with it. Saulanna could do something we would consider 'evil' if her emotions get crossed wrong, and that's no fun.

As for the more long-term speculation on how moral or amoral our eventual second and first circle souls might be, that's gonna depend on, like, alot. Theoretically it might be possible to build ourselves up differently than how the other Titans were built, such that our first circle souls aren't as 'narrow,' but it remains to be seen if that won't be a luxury or even just crazy talk.
>>
No. 64613 ID: edb64c

>>64591

First, people don't use willpower the same way in Lunar Quest as in Exalted, because willpower as a distinct statistic no longer exists the way it did (heroic mortals get "Will Power" in place of magical power and can do some familiar things with it, but that's it). When faced with natural mental influence, or regular old persuasion, they use will points as social "health", as in social combat. When they face unnatural mental influence (when someone is actively using magic to manipulate your mind or body against your will), they face a test that involves their Soul Force, modified by virtues and heart's desire and such and such relevant details. So the two kinds of mental influence are more distinct in Lunar Quest.

Second, a Titan's Lord devas can't use unnatural mental influence against their King or Queen; Noble devas would face a similar restriction with their Lord. It would violate the Titanic hierarchy.

They would be appalled even by the concept of using it against each other, either in the case of Lords against other Lords or a Noble against other Nobles from the same Lord. Each of them is a manifestation of an aspect of the same higher being, so by interfering with each other's free will, they'd be interfering with their own superior, who they are part of themselves. It'd be like one of your arms deciding the other arm needs to be handcuffed to something. Demons do it, and can even try to push influence back up the ladder, but this is because they are by nature now creatures of bonds and restraints and are prone to self-crippling impulses. A healthy deva would view it about the same as most humans would view, say, incest. Which of course is another reason why the state of the Yozis is so shocking.
>>
No. 64616 ID: 406926

>>64613
Thanks for explaining that. Could we get a list of Titanic Abilities for Kairosa, if possible, similar to >>18494 for Saulanna? We're coming up to an upgrade period here and it would be nice to have a solid picture of this. Of course, if she doesn't actually have any discrete Titanic Abilities yet and just general talents and unlisted inherent powers within her theme, that would be nice to know too.

>they are by nature now creatures of bonds and restraints
Suddenly, a Bonds deva just became way less appealing.
>>
No. 64619 ID: 3734f6

>>64616
>Suddenly, a Bonds deva just became way less appealing.
Interpersonal connections and physical/mental restraints are different things that happen to share a word in english.
Could we not make the distinction clear?
>>
No. 64622 ID: ec6d4c

>>64616
This actually occurred to me when J was explaining how Devas would have their own moral codes for us to have to appeal to.

>>64619
I kind of doubt it. They're both aspects of the primordial concept of things being bound together in some way. In a metaphorical sense, relationships very much involve being bound yourself or binding another- responsibilities, loyalties, obligations- what you give, and what you take.

We ran into this problem when discussing civilization- an element has to be something powerful and fundamental. That which binds things together- literally and figuratively- is one such thing. Trying to limit the scope to just the human aspects, and the the positive ones at that, doesn't seem very fundamental.
>>
No. 64628 ID: cee89f

>either in the case of Lords against other Lords or a Noble against other Nobles from the same Lord
>FROM THE SAME LORD
...Interesting.
>>
No. 64629 ID: 2133e3

>>64628

that caught my attention as well. suffice to say that if, say, one of Kairosa's nobles do something against our or Wordblood's nobles, it will be my vote that spankings will be handed out generously.
>>
No. 64630 ID: ec6d4c

>>64629
Considering the Lords would be appalled at the thought of working against each other that way, I think they would be rather upset by their nobles (a part of themselves!) acting against fellow lords, or their lesser parts, in that way.

Assuming that's even possible, spankings discipline would probably be pretty automatic, if discovered.
>>
No. 64632 ID: 4c0e5c

>>64630

I'm the kind of guy who prefers a hands-on type of solution.
>>
No. 64664 ID: 3734f6

Punishment is rather silly to mete out. Whenever you have to make a decision between 2 or more things and you are not 100% certain why it should be one rather then the other, that is a case of different parts of your mind working against each other. Would you beat up your stomach because you surrendered to temptation and ate a tub of delicious but unhealthy ice-cream?

As a titan you can instead shift the balance of power by altering yourself, potentially even absorbing a deva and spawning a replacement that is somewhat different.
>>
No. 64665 ID: bf54a8

well again, example in autochthon, is the one deva that is in charge of pollution, which everyone else wants to get rid of because it is the primary factor in why he is the most sickly. a whole like, fifth of his internal world is just a dense acid smog that can melt anything but soulsteel.


also, i kinda wonder if he put in a secret self destruct in exaltations, just says some kind of not-a-word-but-is-because-he-said-it code and they just implode on themselves.
>>
No. 64709 ID: 629257

>>64665
>Soulsteel
That reminds me, we have all the knowledge of how that stuff is made, I wonder if as a titan we could make it in a much easier and less stomach turning manner. Not that we should start planning any trips into autochthon but it may have its uses at some point.
>>
No. 64713 ID: 888f37

>>64709
Unless we became THE Titan of Transmutation or something, I doubt we can ever make soulsteel without the souls.
>>
No. 64716 ID: 38cd76

>>64713
We sort of do, we've eaten several souls by now. We've simply stripped all of the memories and stuff off of them.

considering our ample ability to directly manipulate the energy involved, we may be able to make... while not soulsteel per se, a very similar substitute.
>>
No. 64718 ID: f49bb8

>>64716
>>64713
>>64709
...Why do you concentrate on the souls, when the critical component is dead Primordial flesh...?

And, in any case, we don't know how the nature of Soulsteel was changed in Lunar Quest, and how that affected the forging process and necessary ingredients of Soulsteel. As it is rather unlikely that Saulanna would seek information about such (given her trauma from the memory acquisition from the Soulsteel blacksmith, and her lack of use for it), perhaps it would be best to table any speculation until such an opportunity pops up in-quest?
>>
No. 64719 ID: fb9917

A trip into Autochthon could be pretty cool. I mean, just because the guy has horrible Titan cancer doesn't mean we should shun him! Maybe we could even cure it! I mean obviously not everything inside him would be on board with that plan but everything in Exalted is like that. And if we had Autobot's help we could definitely make our own Exalts.

As a side benefit it's probably harder to notice a newborn Titan while that Titan is living inside ANOTHER Titan.
>>
No. 64745 ID: b3f65a

>>64719
Ooooooh, we could strike a deal! Heal Autocthon to the best of our ability and power (possibly on a regular basis) with our healing Deva in exchange for Exalts! Heck, maybe Kairosa could slow the effects of the pollution so Autocthon doesn't Cancer-death as quickly.

...

And yes, I STILL wanna do Rebirth for a healing soul >.>

>>64709
.... why would we WANT to?!

Making a new substance that can serve the functions of soulsteel? Maybe. But why would we want to make soulsteel SPECIFICALLY? It's entire existence is based on the fact that it has SOULS and DEAD TITAN FLESH in it. If it doesn't have souls in it, it's just rotting magic-meat and/or souls.
>>
No. 64747 ID: 888f37

If we want magical materials for some reason, we should just look into Moonsilver instead. Not stomach turning and it resonates with our Hero Soul.
>>
No. 64748 ID: 5d98c3

>>64747
Moonsilver is too connected to Luna. I say Orichalcum.
>>
No. 64749 ID: bf54a8

normal soulsteel is a derivative copy of the kind autobot can make.
>>
No. 64750 ID: ec6d4c

>>64719
>>64745
I don't understand why anyone would think going anywhere near another Titan would be a good idea until we're well out of the baby phase. For the moment, having anything to do with Auto is just as dangerous as TDS. We'd be sacrificing our lives, or our autonomy. As we are now, we're both a potential resource and danger to the existing Titans- meaning they will try to harness, contain, or eliminate us in some way. We are nowhere near powerful enough to deal with that yet.

>why would we WANT to?
I have to second this. We fight with words, with our body, or with Titanic magics. Weapons seem unnecessary, and Soulsteel is both eeeevil and wasteful of soul-stuff we need for ourself.
>>
No. 64753 ID: b978d0

>>64745

Making soulsteel: definitively evil.

The line of thought itself isn't entirely bad though. Figuring out how to unmake soulsteel could be a very positive development, especially if the idea is to allow the souls trapped within to pass on. The titanic materials could potentially be recycled as well, though I could see even more care being needed to manage that safely.
Coming up with a humane alternative to soulsteel could also have some benefits, but there's probably easier ways to achieve goals that such a material would contribute towards.

In either case, we're nowhere near prepared to start even preliminary research into such and have more pressing problems to face.

As for healing Auto: I like the sentiment, but there are a few small hurdles we'd need to tackle first. Something to do with the fact that he's hidden himself outside of normal spacetime and fate...
>>
No. 64754 ID: cee89f

>>64753
Soulsteel was already destroyed. Remember the story that Peregrin gave us with the spirit-craftsman?

>>64748
...What's wrong with a connection to Luna?

>>64750
Well sure, this is for later. And when/if we DO reach the point where we can heal Autocthon even to a small degree, he's gonna be tempted by the offer.

>As for healing Auto: I like the sentiment, but there are a few small hurdles we'd need to tackle first. Something to do with the fact that he's hidden himself outside of normal spacetime and fate...
This is all stuff for la-
>Something to do with the fact that he's hidden himself outside of normal spacetime and fate...
>AND FATE...

Titans. Are. Already. Outside. Faaaaaaate.
>>
No. 64755 ID: 38cd76

After we're that powerful, why would we even still want to make our own exalts? I mean, once we're a full blown titan, there's no real reason for us to meddle with the affairs of gaia and creation anymore, is there?
>>
No. 64756 ID: fb9917

>>64755
There's Creation, the Underworld, Heaven, Malfeas/Hell, Autochthon, and the Wyld. Those are our options. Oh, and our own internal world. There aren't any other places as far as I'm aware. Oh and Elsewhere I guess? So yeah we are probably still going to want to interact with Creation, unless we decide to hang out in one of those other places?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, where else would we go?
>>
No. 64758 ID: b978d0

>>64754
Yes, I do understand that Titans are already outside of fate, but they do still interact with it indirectly. Auto in particular is an exception though as he's buggered off to a sort of sub-dimension, meaning that he doesn't even indirectly mess with fate the way that the rest of the titans do. Effectively, he's on a different existential server as it were. He also has his own version of the loom of fate internally, so even if he's technically outside of fate he's still playing cats-cradle with it.

I don't remember mention of soulsteel being destroyed though. Now I'm going to have to review the threads again to find that...

>>64756
I'd also count socialization as being a good reason to keep up relations with the rest of existence. At the very least, internal conversation would start to get old without new input from outside sources. By the time this is a real concern though we may already be looking at creating a new life, and at that power level we'd have the option of just building a new corner of creation (or equivalent) for that rather than displacing existing life.
Loooong way off though.
>>
No. 64759 ID: ec6d4c

>I don't remember mention of soulsteel being destroyed though. Now I'm going to have to review the threads again to find that...

Here you are:

>>/quest/401121
>Something about his essence altered the nature of death;
>all the soulsteel that had ever been forged in the underworld became undone
>>
No. 64762 ID: 997ce7

>>64759
I wonder what happened to any soulsteel not in the Underworld. Maybe we can still make it outside of the Underworld?
>>
No. 64764 ID: 3bad4c

It seems to me that is souls are effectively order imposed by titans (i.e. a measure of Titan's will) then it should be quite simple for a titan (who was interested in such things) to just create a superior substance. Let's not dwell on something that seems so inconsequential and below our erm, stature.

'All of creation' is effectively Gaia's inner world, is it not? What's to stop her devas from going elsewhere, exactly? I think it's already been established that devas can leave a titan's inner world given enough power.
>>
No. 64765 ID: f49bb8

>>64764
>'All of creation' is effectively Gaia's inner world, is it not?
It seems unlikely in Lunar Quest since there's the Loom of Fate (i.e. Creation needs the Loom to ensure stability), and it would seem that healthy Titans should have some degree of narrative-imposition within themselves. Wordblood stated that Gaia is one of the healthiest and strongest of Titans, so she shouldn't require an external narrative-imposition device.

Also, please you explain why you think Gaia's devas can't leave her inner world? It seems so... out of nowhere, really. We haven't discussed much of Gaia, really, just some of the details of the Elements of her Lord Souls.
>>
No. 64766 ID: cee89f

>>64755
Uhhh... unless you want to make your OWN world, as Akatrina suggested the DS could've done... no. We will STILL have to meddle in Creation's affairs, whether we want to or not.

>>64758
Peregrin said something like "Before the Dragon's Shadow took over there was a substance known as soulsteel, which unbound when he took over the underworld"

>>64762
Again, WHY DO WE WANT TO MAKE SOULSTEEL.

But the way it's described suggests ALL soulsteel was undone - Peregrin said that DS 'altered the nature of death' and that somehow ended the existence of Soulsteel
>>
No. 64767 ID: 38cd76

Well, Titans do tend to be worlds in and of themselves. Creation is Gaia. Autochthon is his own place. Malfeas is his own world too.

There's no real reason we need to bother with exalts meddling with mortal affairs, if we can just carve our own piece of existence out of nothing and do that.

I guess Auto-head does have his own exalts, after a fashion, but all in all they seem to meddle less.

It's clear why the titans locked up in malfeas should want to have exalts, being stuck in prison they're pretty much forced to meddle if they want to do anything at all.

The underworld is essentially not creation, but the Dragon's Shadow took over that already.

I guess we could take over heaven or something... that might be fun.
>>
No. 64768 ID: 70acd0

>>64759
Thanks!

Seems like more of an existential compatibility problem than an actual process for unmaking soulsteel. Also seems like having the element of death as a big part of him was required as well for that particular event to happen. As such, not really a viable path for us to pursue. Research into other methods would be preferable. Especially given Peregrin's comments regarding a death element deva.

>>64764
If one of our deva manifest outside of us, they'd end up the same place we are. Creation. If one of Gaia's deva manifest outside of her, they end up in the wyld, enemy territory, slamming into Auto's seal, or elsewhere. Well, there's also the potential that they could simply be ejected from existence entirely, but that would probably take a much higher escape velocity.
>>
No. 64769 ID: cee89f

>Creation is Gaia.
Uh... no. No, no, NO.

As I understand it, Creation is a section of the Wyld that has stabilized into a (mostly) ordered area. Gaia had a major hand in making Creation, but she didn't make it out of her world-body, else Creation's whole structure begins to lose meaning and fall slowly apart in numerous areas.

For example, why do they need the totems? Because the Wyld is a threat to Creation. Why is the Wyld a threat to Creation if Titans (like Gaia) are anathema to it and can all but ignore the effects of unreality? How would GAIA'S world-body shrink after events almost entirely unrelated to her wellbeing? (Creation supposedly lost most of it's existence to the Wyld after the Primordial War... either that or the Usurpation, I don't remember which) Why is Gaia gone? Why would she need the Sun and Moon to be represented by Gods as opposed to her own Devas? For that matter, why make Gods AT ALL when you could just make Devas? Why make Creation within Gaia specifically? Why take all the boredom out of Creation to make Elsewhere if you need to rip it out of a Titan? Remember, Wordblood was SURPRISED that Gaia worked with the gods, suggesting there was no immediately obvious reason why Gaia would want the Titans gone, meaning the Gods were not a part of her and that ripping all the boredom out of creation did her no direct harm. Heck, his reason for Autocthon was that he got bullied by the others, which makes SOME degree of sense. Why would the death of the Neverborn create the Underworld? Why would it bleed into Creation? Why would Gaia have a mate (Luna) if she were the entire PLANET? Why wouldn't they use the KING OF THE PRIMORDIAL'S world-body if they really needed one? WHY WOULD WORDBLOOD DESCRIBE HIS CONNECTION TO BOOKS AS SIMILAR TO HOW ALL LIFE HAS A PIECE OF GAIA IN IT IF THE CONNECTION IS MORE LIKE A COMMONER DEVA?! WHY AM I ASKING YOU ALL THESE QUESTIONS?! MERMAID MAN, WHERE ARE-

...

Ahem. Sorry, lost track. It just raises too many questions.

>There's no real reason we need to bother with exalts meddling with mortal affairs, if we can just carve our own piece of existence out of nothing and do that.

That's BORING and SELFISH. I don't know about you, but I'm hoping Saulanna has enough balls to try and fix reality as-is before pussing out and running out of it.

>I guess we could take over heaven or something... that might be fun.

NO. THIS NEVER TURNS OUT WELL FOR ANYONE WHO HAS EVER TRIED IT, IN -ANY- MYTHOLOGY, RELIGION, OR STORY. IN THIS UNIVERSE, WE'D LIKELY BE TURNED INTO A NEVERBORN.
>>
No. 64770 ID: f49bb8

>>64767
Creation is not Gaia-

it could be in Lunar Quest,

though we have no Word of Jukashi on that, I think-

So please don't say that.

Also, taking over Yu Shan means either kicking out the Incarna (ha ha no), beating them Incarna up and then asserting and continue asserting Saulanna's authority via stronger-than-you (...thats what led up to the divine usurpation... i.e. no), killing the Incarna (...possible. end goal, perhaps?), or convincing the Incarna that Saulanna deserves to rule Yu Shan and they should hand over the keys to the continent-city (...i do not think it is possible with the aggregate playerbase of lunar quest).
>>
No. 64771 ID: 3bad4c

I honestly can't understand how you people don't interpret a question as a question.

So Creation is not Gaia -> it seems just as possible that the Gaia's 'missing' devas could be in Gaia's inner world?

>>>Tonight, on Ranting Jackass...
How do I report you to the mods for your behaviour? You're obviously aware that you're behaving badly but you do it anyway.

Don't you realise that some of us are trying to avoid reading all the available Exalted material so we don't form opinions that conflict with the world Jukashi's working with? It's right there in the first post!
>>
No. 64774 ID: 5bf190

Gaia's connection to Creation is, as has been, ambiguous. Creation is not Gaia's world-body the way Autochthonia is Autochthon's, that's for certain. She is, however, intimately connected to Creation somehow; five of her Lord devas are the foundation points of the world's physical composition. She is present in all living things and in the natural world, and yet is also, quite clearly, Not Here.

Every Titan has a few weird qualities that are unique to them, which may defy how Titans "normally" work. This is one of Gaia's.
>>
No. 64777 ID: 9b155d

>>64774
>She is, however, intimately connected to Creation somehow; five of her Lord devas are the foundation points of the world's physical composition.

On a somewhat related note, that's always made me wonder about the impact using the Reality Engines hidden in Gethamane to make a replacement Elemental Pole of Earth would have, both if the original was still there or if it'd been destroyed.

>>64769
Your shift and capslock keys should be removed.
>>
No. 64780 ID: ec6d4c

>Every Titan has a few weird qualities that are unique to them, which may defy how Titans "normally" work
I find this pleasantly reassuring. Means being a half-exalt second generation demi-titan (or whatever) won't make Saulanna any more of a freak than the rest of them in the long run.

>Your shift and capslock keys should be removed.
He could get around that so long as he still had access to the character map. :V
>>
No. 64791 ID: 888f37

>>64748
And why is that a problem?
>Orichalcum.
Which is connected to the Unconquered Sun.
>>
No. 64792 ID: beeca1

>>64791
Wasn't he killed and replaced by Ligier and Her Redness?
>>
No. 64795 ID: cee89f

>>64777
I don't know how to italicize, color or bold here, which just leaves capitalization for emphasis.

>>64771
I had a LOT of counterpoints, and I knew I wasn't going to able to respond properly without sounding annoyed, so I tried to turn the annoyance into a JOKE. The subject line was an attempt to make the post and the rant within it look ridiculous beyond belief, to the point where I sounded like an idiot instead of an asshole, and provide forewarning that a person wasn't going to look what they read. That way, the anger in the post could be ignored as self-deprecating idiocy and either the entire post would be ignored, or just what was too pissy to make sense. Which I closed off by becoming increasingly incoherent near the end, and lead into a TV reference.

Apparently it didn't work, and I'm sorry for that - I wanted to get my point across, not piss anyone off.

>Don't you realise that some of us are trying to avoid reading all the available Exalted material so we don't form opinions that conflict with the world Jukashi's working with? It's right there in the first post!

...No, actually. I did not.

Point taken, but several of those points DO apply directly to Lunar Quest and are based on events within it, ya know >.>

>How do I report you to the mods for your behaviour? You're obviously aware that you're behaving badly but you do it anyway.

There's an IRC channel for it, I believe. #tgchan or something? =/ In my defense, I'm not flaming anyone, I'm just presenting my points in a very rude fashion.

>Your shift and capslock keys should be removed.

(maybe i should remove the discussion thread from my browser...)

Wouldn't that just be even more annoying? I'd have to rely on bold, underline and italicize for everything and be unable to use question marks, quotaion marks, colons, parenthesis... It'd just make whatever I was trying to say confusing and incoherent.

>>64770
>>Creation is not Gaia-

>it could be in Lunar Quest
No, it really can't =/ I would go back through the list and pick out the questions that apply directly to Lunar Quest, but if it pissed people off the first time, why bother repeating myself?
>>
No. 64796 ID: beeca1

>>64795
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/news.php?p=faq

About color, it's only used for mod/admin edits- bright red and bolded- and dialogue in some quests with lots of characters. I've never seen anything official, but given its role, I assume that using it for emphasis would be frowned upon as poor taste... gaudy, gauche, something like that, if not worse. I'm slightly more certain that using red, especially combined with bolding, would be even worse, since it seems to be at least informally reserved for mods.
>>
No. 64798 ID: 70acd0

>>64774
Hmm... That hadn't even crossed my mind really. Makes the definition of Titan more fuzzy than I initially thought, but it fits them quite well none the less.
>>
No. 64799 ID: da1a0f

>>64771
'Cuz they weren't responding to the question, but the erroneous statement before it?

Also, the Creation is Gaia thing is more of bad fanon thing, rather than an Exalted canon thing.
>>
No. 64800 ID: 404f8a

>>64799

The Developers have said that it would be more accurate to say that Creation is an artifact to which Gaia is attuned. That Gaia IS Creation is fanon as above anon noted.
>>
No. 64801 ID: 5d121c

Yeah, by the logic of picking a material based on who it's connected to, Moonsilver is the best bet probably.

Maybe one of the types of Jade, but that's a worse bet and probably risky right now.

But, honestly, you know who made the different magical materials in the first place? Things like us.

We should just make our own. Too bad we don't really have a solid theme yet. We have, what, "time", "language" and "undecided amnesiac" in our repertoire of souls. They don't seem to have anything in common. Even visually, one's a human, one is a dragon of words and one is a cosmic wraith with horns or something.

What would a good overall theme be for the primordial we're forming into, anyway.
>>
No. 64802 ID: cee89f

>>64801
Understanding? (We understand Time as a concept now, Wordblood can speak any language, our masked hero idea [canon or otherwise] ties into it quite well with the whole forgiveness aspect of it)

Personas? (ties in to our mask thing, the fact that we seem to be leaning towards a stealth soul as our next Lord Deva, and the ability to switch roles on the fly would connect well to the infinite language ability Wordblood gives us. Kairosa is a bit harder to tie in, but you could say that since personas are temporary...)

Rebir- OW! STOP THROWING STUFF! OKAY OKAY, I'LL STOP SAYING REBIRTH!! (for now)

... Floating Islands? Hey, if we can have a Dragon of Communication, we can be a Titan of Floating Islands =p

...

Eh, I'll be honest, I like Personas the best.
>>
No. 64804 ID: ec6d4c

>theme?
>They don't seem to have anything in common.
I disagree pretty strongly! We've got a pretty good start on a connective theme here.

There's a pretty strong link between communication and time. Words are history- the description of time past. And the major shaping forces of history, the turning points of time, are interactions between people. Communication, in one form or another is what gives time a context- a richness and fullness it would otherwise lack.

There's a strong connection between the moon and time as well. The moon is one of the oldest means of measuring time- it rises and sets, waxes and wanes. It is both reliably the same and ever changing.

This change/sameness quality of the moon ties together with our titanic nature, and Words as well (even the lunars show this- their tattoos are a literal representation of this connection). We posses the power to describe ourself and reality as it is, or to express how it should be, and change it. Fundamentally, we have more than the power of history- we have the power of authorship.

Now, we're still evolving, and it's tricky to sum up that sentiment in a single word (Titan of foo), bu it's a strong starting point that will become better defined as we grow. I think it also helps not to think of Saulanna's role in the theme as an ingredient to be worked in (amnesiac human), but as the amalgamation that will be revealed in the end.

...and yes, Rebirth would actually be a pretty solid thematic fit with what I've but here. Certainly fits with the moon (reborn every month), time, and authorship. Even communication, if you want to consider the fact that every interaction, every conversation has the chance to change who you are (perhaps more literally than usual, considering how social combat works in game!).
>>
No. 64805 ID: b978d0

>>64804
I'd say we're effectively a titan of archaeology at this point. We've got a temporal excavation specialist, a linguistics specialist, a survivalist (which we still need to poke), and a generalist leader. Sounds like a dig site field team to me.
>>
No. 64807 ID: ec6d4c

>Titan of archaeology
...so if we include rebirth, we're effectively Daniel Jackson. XD
>>
No. 64812 ID: cee89f

>>64805
Saulandianna Jones.

...

Fund it.
>>
No. 64813 ID: 5d121c

>>64804
Apart from moon-time, all of those seem like grasping for straws to me.

But OK. We gotta get something.
>>
No. 64814 ID: 3734f6

So, soulsteel is evil and anathema to shadow dragon (since its the worst form of slavery), orichalcum is tied to the unconquered sun and moonsilver to luna.
Just make a new substance called Rockblossium... You can get the memories of experts in crafting each unique super metal first to help you design your own custom one.

Also, if we are making a super weapon it doesn't matter what material it starts as as long as we invest enough TW in a single weapon it will be exceptionally powerful.

Or just go ahead and make a deva of weaponry who can assume the form of weapons and give her the ability to manifest outside our body. I am pretty sure such a titanic manifestation would be the ultimate weapon (and I like empathic weapons :P)

Also, I wonder if the remains of the no longer functional soulsteel can be eaten to gain TW.
>>
No. 64815 ID: daf83d

>>64814

For naming schemes, why not just make Saulsteel?
>>
No. 64816 ID: fb9917

>>64814
I think 'Weapon' actually would be a purpose. And then we could give it a cool element. I can't actually think of one now though. Total blank.
>>
No. 64817 ID: 4a328b

Element of Heroism?
>>
No. 64818 ID: 5a1193

the next deva's purpose should be weapon and its element should be weapons.
>>
No. 64819 ID: 3734f6

>>64815
puntastic :)
>>64816
You are correct. But there we have it...
Make a deva whose purpose is to be a weapon, and whose element is yet to be determined.
>>64817
Wouldn't that be the exaltation spirit...

Actually, weren't we already told that the exaltation spirit's purpose is to be a weapon? And this one works by giving us the ability to transform into warform and turn our claws into moonsilver.

I worry that if we do create a weapon deva that is part of us rather then completely independent it might merge with the exaltation spirit...

However, we could probably enhance the exaltation into such a deva. It all depends on what we find out when we study it more in depth.
>>
No. 64820 ID: 3734f6

I think weapon might be too specific for a lordly deva.

I think a more sensible approach is to make a lordly deva of equipment.
Who has the nobles: Weapons, Armors, Tools, etc
Where weapons' commoners are then various specific kinds of weapons. Swords, axes, bows, etc.

Also, I do not think it should be the next creation because using it will obviously reveal us as a titan and all our plans at the moment call for us to hide it a little longer.
>>
No. 64821 ID: 70f7ae

We should make a magic material that constantly inscribes itself with sigils of possible futures.
>>
No. 64822 ID: 3734f6

>>64821
why?
>>
No. 64823 ID: 38cd76

>>64822
Because it would be awesome?

Why else does anyone do anything in Exalted?
>>
No. 64824 ID: ec6d4c

Cursed items that give cryptic, unintelligible warnings about the future are kind of the opposite of awesome. Especially if it just serves to lock us into a bad future, like Kairosa warned.
>>
No. 64830 ID: f49bb8

>>64823
To murder their enemies, reanimate them to make them slaves, press their women and men and children and other associates into bondage, and establish a lasting dynasty that eventually (most probably quickly) is cast down and all citizens made to be slaves of the usurpers.

Or are killed for whatever reason, and their ghosts rise as impotent echos of their hatred.

Or escape to become bitter and angry guerrilla fighters against the regime.

Or become turncoats and integrate themselves into the new regime.

Or some other thing that I care not name.


Most of the motivation for 'awesome' comes from players; the characters themselves tend to have considerably more nuanced motivations.
>>
No. 64831 ID: 91dfee

>>64824
According to Kai, there is a difference between trying to fortell the future, thus locking it into place, and merely hinting at possible futures, which she brought up as an idea to avoid a locking in scenario if we still wanted to.
>>64830
There could be any number of reasons, in character, for saulana to create her own material. Only she, or her exalts maybe, could attune to it for one thing. And she'd be able to give it properties tailored to her own needs.

I was answering the question as to why would WE want to.
>>
No. 64832 ID: 9b155d

>>64795
>I don't know how to italicize, color or bold here, which just leaves capitalization for emphasis.
>Wouldn't that just be even more annoying? I'd have to rely on bold, underline and italicize for everything and be unable to use question marks, quotaion marks, colons, parenthesis... It'd just make whatever I was trying to say confusing and incoherent.

The point is you emphasize too much. The reason for emphasizing words is generally, outside of dialogue, either to highlight an important bit that would get lost in the larger argument or to make the point that everything said up until then has been building to a central idea rather then a bunch of disparate points. To emphasize so much and so often makes you look like a shouty asshole who's so smug and narcissistic that he thinks he has to point out every important word so people get what he's saying.

>>64831
Anyone in Exalted that can channel essence can attune to any magical material, it's just a question of whether or not it resonates with them and thus offers them additional bonuses based on the material.
>>
No. 64833 ID: 3734f6

>>64831
>There could be any number of reasons, in character, for saulana to create her own material.
The question was not why would we want to create our own material (heck, it was my idea in the first place), the question was why create that specific material.
It seems like something that would do more harm then good.
>>
No. 64838 ID: cee89f

>>64832
>The point is you emphasize too much
I got that but Your solution would've just created a worse problem. At least banning me would stop my posts.

>The reason for emphasizing words is generally, outside of dialogue, either to highlight an important bit that would get lost in the larger argument or to make the point that everything said up until then has been building to a central idea rather then a bunch of disparate points. To emphasize so much and so often makes you look like a shouty asshole who's so smug and narcissistic that he thinks he has to point out every important word so people get what he's saying.

You view emphasis as an organizational technique then. Interesting. I view emphasis in text as exactly the same thing as emphasis in speech. It just means a change in tone or raising your voice.

I AM "shouty" and have already admitted I'm an asshole (trying not to be, but as you've noticed, I'm not very good at it), but I would think that being smug and narcissistic would have the opposite effect, and leave the person thinking he didn't need to explain himself or emphasize anything at all, because he's always right and everybody should listen. A person who feels the need to emphasize to get his points across would be insecure about his own ability to properly convey what he wanted to say.

Granted, I'm no psychologist and pulling most of this out of my ass.

But more importantly, why are we still discussing this? Would you like an apology? I am sorry I am an asshole, and will try to be better.

>>64831
Shouldn't we wait until we actually have a reason to have a material then, as opposed to making something 'just cuz'?

And as MrTT has said, >>64833
this particular material would do more harm than good.
>>
No. 64841 ID: 38cd76

It doesn't really matter who's wrong or right
What matters is we stop the fight.
:)


I admit, I can't see any reason to make the material give cryptic messages about the future, aside from the fact that it would tie in to both Wordblood's and Kairosa's elements. I disagree that it would necessarily be dangerous, however, Kairosa implied that she could try to probe the future in ways that wouldn't cement causality.

Not entirely certain what sort of properties would be good for Saulana to put into a material either.

Although, given that knowledge is such a big thing for her, she could probably make some pretty cool things if we develop her correctly.
>>
No. 64845 ID: 9b155d

For a magical material, if we made something that functionally represented/did something Saulanna valued, it might serve as a good Element for a future Deva. It'd be tailored to represent what we want and noone would have any influence over the Deva.

>I got that but Your solution would've just created a worse problem. At least banning me would stop my posts.

My solution was hyperbole.

>Would you like an apology?

Not particularly.

>But more importantly, why are we still discussing this?

Previously? I find several of your posts painful to read. Currently? I enjoy debating/talking about communication.

>You view emphasis as an organizational technique then.

In text, I view emphasis as a technique for improving clarity of communication. For dialogue, this might stress words to make it more similar to certain patterns of speech. In other cases of text to communicate though, extraneous emphasis muddles your ability to get your point across. Text is a separate medium from speech and communicating clearly through it works much differently. Where using frequent emphasis to affect tone in speech can work for adding emotive weight to your point, in text it makes the driving point or force of what you're trying to communicate rather hazy.

>but I would think that being smug and narcissistic would have the opposite effect
>A person who feels the need to emphasize to get his points across would be insecure about his own ability to properly convey what he wanted to say.

That is another way to interpret constant emphasis. Narcissism could go either way though, whether thinking they're so great at communicating they wouldn't give a thought to the idea that others couldn't understand them, or thinking that they're so much better/others are so stupid that the Narcissist needs to help their inferiors to understand.
>>
No. 64846 ID: 3bad4c

>>(HT's stuff)
Text is a dangerous form of communication.

---

Anyway, my assumptions currently (based on what I think I recall):
1. Gaia had 7 devas (according to Wordblood)
2. People in Creation know of 5 of Gaia's Devas
3. People in Creation may or may not be right.

Possibilities:
i. Gaia has reabsorbed them
i-a. and created two others in their place
i-b. and created no others
i-c. and created <> two others
ii. They're in Gaia's inner world, not in Creation, and have been like so for a very long time..
ii-a. because Gaia needs them in her internal world for purpose 'x' (Dragon of Time letting Gaia go subjectively 'away from Creation'?)
ii-b. or because they're safer there
ii-c. or because their presence in Creation would mess things up quite a bit
ii-n. (insert more possibilities as desired)
iii. They're in Creation but it's not obvious
iii-a. Maybe they're occupying 'up' and 'down'? Maybe you need a whole dragon to form the border between Creation and the Underworld?
iv. They've been destroyed (gasp!)

What would happen if someone offed a Lord deva but all the devas below in the hierarchy were left intact? Does that Lord deva reform from the top-down or from the bottom-up?
>>
No. 64848 ID: cee89f

>Text is a dangerous form of communication.

Believe me, I know. Microsoft Word once tried to strangle me for using 'there' when i should've said 'their'.

>>64845
>My solution was hyperbole.
........ I knew that.
...
I'm not an idiot! Honest!

>In text, I view emphasis as a technique for improving clarity of communication. For dialogue, this might stress words to make it more similar to certain patterns of speech. In other cases of text to communicate though, extraneous emphasis muddles your ability to get your point across. Text is a separate medium from speech and communicating clearly through it works much differently. Where using frequent emphasis to affect tone in speech can work for adding emotive weight to your point, in text it makes the driving point or force of what you're trying to communicate rather hazy.
*shrug* i still "hear" what we're writing (for lack of a better phrase) as dialogue.

>>64846
>What would happen if someone offed a Lord deva but all the devas below in the hierarchy were left intact? Does that Lord deva reform from the top-down or from the bottom-up?
....Not sure what you mean by this, specifically the top-down and bottom-up bit =/ We've been told that the noble devas ascend the original Deva back to normal.
>>
No. 64850 ID: bf54a8

all of a deva's underlings are normally made out of shards of that deva. meaning in total they have more then enough redundant information to reform him. so bottom-up.
>>
No. 64853 ID: cee89f

>>64850
... Come to think of it, Wordblood wasn't split off from us like Kairosa was, or most of our devas probably will be. If he aided in reconstructing Saulanna, would she gain a bit of He Who Bleeds?
>>
No. 64857 ID: f49bb8

>>64853
She already gained part of He Who Bleeds via Wordblood. Remember the merging thing from the discussion about Akuma back in Chapter 1, where integrated souls merged partially and became more similar to each other? (It wasn't only about Akuma - Wordblood said it applied to him too - but I can't remember what Wordblood's situation would be called.)
>>
No. 64863 ID: 3734f6

>What would happen if someone offed a Lord deva but all the devas below in the hierarchy were left intact? Does that Lord deva reform from the top-down or from the bottom-up?
This was answered in this very questdis thread earlier, by wordblood.

It would be reassembled by its subordinate devas as close as possible to its original nature and form.

If a significant majority of the house is slaughtered simultaneously or faster then they can reform then the titan's personality and nature will shift while said house is diminished, and said shift will affect the forming of the damaged houses.
>>
No. 64864 ID: bf54a8

basically, wordblood instinctively tried to rebuild his superior. but because it was only him it was a half formed idea that instead merged with saulanna.
>>
No. 64866 ID: fb9917

>>64863
There is also a special sort of way it works with fetich souls so those can sorta be killed permanently but we don't strictly speaking have one of those so it probably doesn't matter to us, unless we plan to attack another Titan anytime soon.
>>
No. 64888 ID: 9b155d

>>64866
Given that they ahven't come up at all, and the way Wordblood has referred tot hings, I don't think Fetich souls exist in Lunar Quest. I think the King/Queen is meant to be both the Fetich soul and the Titan proper.
>>
No. 64889 ID: f49bb8

>>64888
Actually, there's an implied separation between Titans and Queens/Kings in
>>56015
>What is a Fetich?
>A Titan's most defining soul. Saulanna is her own Fetich, for example.

Saulanna being both Queen and Titan is meant to be one of those unique quirks all Titans have; while Titans and Queens/Kings are typically separate, in Saulanna's case, those positions are the same.
>>
No. 64900 ID: 38cd76

Wordblood has implied that Saulana the fetich and saulana the titan are going to become more clearly defined from eachother at a later date.

Saulana's external self became the titan, and her soul became the fetich. Wordblood has implied that her nature as a deva will change over time as she gains new abilities, and her element and purpose become more clear.

Which I find very interesting.
>>
No. 64902 ID: cee89f

>>64857
No no, i mean a bit of He Who Bleeds as a whole, the way he USED to be. Like would she start dripping venomous slander from her nails or something.

(I'd come up with something more specific and in line with what I'm thinking of but I know very little about he who bleeds.)
>>
No. 64910 ID: f49bb8

>>64902
>start dripping venomous slander from her nails or something
That may happen as Wordblood increases in power/importance/influence on Saulanna-as-Titan.

Do you mean Saulanna turning into HWB, rather than acquiring certain traits (i.e. motif related to Wordblood's Words/Communication Element)? That is, gaining powers over Blood/Legacy/etc. and acquiring the nature of the dead Titan?
>>
No. 64911 ID: cee89f

>>64910
Basically, yeah. I don't think Saulanna would change completely (especially considering most of her Devas are probably going to be split from her) but that she would start to shift towards HWB, as opposed to the human form we have now. IE, we slowly shift into something between us and HWB. Like what it would look like if Saulanna and HWB got together and had a baby.

(Darnnit, now I wanna see that ><)

I guess it's more likely that Wordblood would sieze on what parts of Saulanna were bonded to him and piece together what he could from that, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
>>
No. 64914 ID: 63f851

>>/quest/477523
>>/quest/477523
>>/quest/477523
>>/quest/477523
>>/quest/477523
>>
No. 64915 ID: bf54a8

she is just tasting her... the inside of her mouth still counts.
>>
No. 64917 ID: 3734f6

Poor Jukashi, I bet he didn't even write a background for pre-wipe saulannna and now we are forcing him to :P

>>64911
For saulanna to become a clone of HWB she would have to have WB take control as king and recreate the same type of devas as HWB and even then there will be differences.

Major differences already:
1. Queen is saulanna not WB (assuming WB's own assumpion of his old self being the defining deva of HWB is correct)
2. WB has already been changed by saulanna.
3. Exaltation moon spirit
4. Time feeding deva
>>
No. 64918 ID: cee89f

>>64917
I was talking about getting a piece of HWB where Saulanna used to be. Why does everyone assume I mean 'an exact clone'?

>>/quest/477523
......

We have GOT to invent a reason for her to do that to Peregrin. Just for the look on his face.

>>/quest/477525
Yeah, let's hear about the sad time-dragon story.
>>
No. 64922 ID: 9b155d

Saulanna being remade by one part Her Deva who's influenced by He Who Bleeds' Fetich soul and one part He Who Bleeds' Fetich soul sounds like the result would have her become more similar to He Who Bleeds'. That's just logical. How much more, especially since Saulanna doesn't have much of an identity yet, is the question. For some reason I'm imagining that change resulting in Librarian Saulanna.
>>
No. 64924 ID: 3734f6

>>64922
you mean, hypothetically if she dies, the effects of having wordblood being part of those who remake her will alter her personality?

I don't think that it would. Wordblood is no longer the a deva of HWB but a deva of saulanna, they alter each other as does the exaltation and keirosa.
>>
No. 64925 ID: bf54a8

also i doubt they could survive having her destroyed. just wont have enough energy left to bring her back. once we have filled out or lord quota and start working on lower lvl souls THEN we can start surviving normally deadly things.
>>
No. 64926 ID: 38cd76

I think you can see wordbloods presence is already affecting saulana physically. Look at the difference between between her when she first exalted, and her form now. Her tail, for one, is much more voluminous, and we've seen her hug it when told to hug him

I wonder if our mist recent endeavor here will have any effects in her appearance. Kai does have horns..
>>
No. 64927 ID: 5d121c

Honestly, that doesn't look like a lick.

It looks like a kiss on the mouth.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's cute, and the hand on the cheek makes it look like a tender moment.
>>
No. 64934 ID: 0afe96

if a titan's souls do sexual things to each other, does it count as masturbation?
>>
No. 64936 ID: cee89f

...Wait, why are Kai's eyes blue now?
>>
No. 64937 ID: ec6d4c

>>64936
Because she tasted us and blue is our color (or at least, our exaltation's color). Not her cloak shifted too- it shows a piece of our past, the gloves she mentioned.

Confirms that's a gem on her head and not a third eye, I think. Since it didn't change color with the others.
>>
No. 64939 ID: 3734f6

To speed things up a bit, how about a combined post where we:
1. Hear story
2. Bring in 2 slaver souls, taste to confirm guilt, if guilty eat.
3. Examine Lunar exaltation in inner world in more detail

Almost everyone agrees on doing the above 3 and the only question is the order (which I doubt matters)
>>
No. 64942 ID: 5bf190

>>64939

I don't really want to do a combined post, though; I'd prefer to have smaller updates spaced apart than one big one that takes like two weeks to do. Mostly because the more work I have to do at once, the more of a chore it feels like. So when the update asks "what do you want to do", I know already there's several things on the table I have to get to eventually; which of those things is it that you'd like to do next, though?

Really, for the most part, the purpose of the whole "Internal Phase" is just time for more relaxed, conversational interaction with Saulanna's devas. Q&A, deciding long-term things, maybe some TW spending. It's supposed to feel different from the normal quest chapters; there's no pressure on.
>>
No. 64944 ID: 3734f6

I see. I mistook Kairosa's suggestion to get to the soul munching as a subtle hint from you to move it along rather then what is suitable for her personality (which makes sense that a feeding deva would want to get to the munchies already :P).
>>
No. 64945 ID: 63f851

>>64944
Guilty here too.
>>
No. 64982 ID: 32b727

I suggest that we eventually make a humanity deva who's purpose would be to keep us sane and moral. maybe an element of 'goodness', 'morality' or 'humanity' would work
>>
No. 64983 ID: 5d121c

>>64982
Wouldn't the fact that we'd be delegating humanity away make us LESS human?
>>
No. 64984 ID: 3bad4c

Couldn't Saulanna - the human deva - simply take excursions from Saulanna, the human-sized titan?

Like a holiday.. haha.
>>
No. 64985 ID: 629257

>>64983
Nah, elements aren't like purposes. As long as they aren't too similar and absorbing each other you're good. Besides being human ourselves isn't the same as having a human-based element... I think. On second thought, let's not risk anything with the "human" element specifically. Might be awkward for Saulannas mortal soul.

Some other ideas that might keep us based in humanity: Flesh for a combat deva, Emotion for a social one, and of course Rebirth/Life have been mentioned for healing already.
>>
No. 64987 ID: cee89f

>>64982
>>64985

Here's an idea. I think it was implied at one point that Saulanna could be turned into a Deva herself. Why don't we make SAULANNA'S element Humanity/Morality?
>>
No. 64988 ID: ec6d4c

>>64987
Turned into? She already is.

The problem is drawing the distinction between Saulanna the Queen of the Devas and Saulanna the Titanic gestalt.

And I don't think we get to chose her element and purpose- they'll be revealed organically depending how she grows.
>>
No. 64989 ID: cee89f

>>64988
>Turned into? She already is.
You know what I mean -_-

>And I don't think we get to chose her element and purpose- they'll be revealed organically depending how she grows.
Maybe but Wordblood implied we could choose to make ourselves a Healing deva or somesuch.

Then again, I don't remember where (when Wordblood was talking about elements and purposes?) so I can't get a direct quote, and I did find where Wordblood says he "doesn't even know what purpose or element [Saulanna] leans towards" which would instead imply it would grow organically.
>>
No. 64990 ID: 629257

>>64989
Well maybe she doesn't need one? Titans make up their own rules after all, why not have this titanic-mortal soul grow into a more powerful soul of no particular element, with simple free will instead of a singular purpose.
>>
No. 64994 ID: b978d0

>>64990
You know, I think I like that idea. There are inherent benefits in the freedom associated with being a mortal soul, even if those benefits don't lend themselves well to direct shows of power. Saulanna will always have her other deva and exaltation to assist with the raw power side of things, so it's not really a detriment unless we start making deva that would demand such shows from her directly.
>>
No. 65000 ID: 9b155d

I'm pretty sure Saulanna already has an "element" based on the way she seemed unsettled by a Will Deva. I figure that Human Souls being made in large part of Titan's Will means that while her element might not be exactly Will, it's similar enough that it might cause conflict.
>>
No. 65003 ID: 629257

>>65000
Nah that was a different problem with will being something deeper than a purpose or element, everything would conflict with it if you tried to define it that way. Titans gods and mortal souls are all made of the same basic soulstuff, the element is just the shape it takes. Mortal souls are formless wisps of it, I think... empowering that might end up as an undefined, malleable being? I dunno.

I think we need more explanation about what mortal and exalt souls really technically are.
>>
No. 65004 ID: ec6d4c

You know, it occurs to me we could ask some of this directly in quest. In the current internal exploration phase, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Saulanna to ask the other Devas about her current form. This is her... Deva self? Does she have an element, or purpose? Etc.

I doubt we'd get a complete answer, but we might get a partial explanation.
>>
No. 65006 ID: f49bb8

>>65004
All these are already known. In order: yes that is her Deva self, and both Element and Purpose are unknown until she grows in power such that her native inclinations make them clear.
>>
No. 65009 ID: 38cd76

You know, given the blue tint to kai's eyes when she tasted us, I wouldn't be surprised if our exaltation is acting something like a Noble Deva of ours.

And our Lunar Abilities all seem like something we have much more direct control over than the titan abilities.

That could mean some interesting things for what direction Saulana is going to be developing as a Lordly Soul.
>>
No. 65013 ID: 3bad4c

From what I've seen, it doesn't appear that the exaltation has a will, so that's why it's up to Saulanna to dictate everything it does.

It certainly does come with baggage (possible memories of past lives, animal insticts, connections to others) but I still see it as the equivalent of power armour. I think it leans towards being an artefact more than it is a soul in its own right.
>>
No. 65014 ID: 63f851

>>64990
You, good Anonymous, hit the nail right on the head. Saulanna being human is exactly what will make her unique and apart from all the other Titans ever. It's her biggest long-term advantage by far. (Also weakness, but it's a weakness damn well worth having.) The Lunar Hero-soul, being deigned to augment humans, will help in this regard.

And yes, someone should figure out a good way to phrase this conversation into a question please.
>>
No. 65015 ID: cee89f

>>65000
I was under the impression she was unsettled because a Will was a redundant element, since all things about a Titan are based around Will already.
>>
No. 65018 ID: 38cd76

>>65013
The distinction being that we have seen it act like a deva when it contributed to Kai's birth.

The fact that it is essentially a powerpack attached to saulana is why I'm leaning toward, if its to be something of a deva, probably a noble deva, being we've seen its coloring effect kai when she tasted saulana's essence.
>>
No. 65028 ID: 3bad4c

>>65000
Congrats on post #65000

So with no particular purpose, it looks like she'll drift towards being the Titan of Questing, am I right? :D A.k.a. doing whatever needs doing because doing nothing is boring and one has no good ideas.
>>
No. 65109 ID: c3864b

What could be a good element for a stealth Deva? Something that can conceal, mislead and preferably interact with Fate. Can't think of anything better than Pattern. Other thoughts?
>>
No. 65110 ID: cee89f

>>65109
Masks? Shadows? Lightning?
>>
No. 65111 ID: 629257

>>65109
Pattern, Mask, Veil, Mystery, Secrets, Illusion, Perception, Sense, Magic, Dreams, Sleep, Mind, Thought, Contradiction, Paradox, Change, Flux, Mutability, Adaption.

Some overlap there, different implications and different ideas of stealth.
>>
No. 65116 ID: 521153

Masks amuses me because raccoons. My motivations are indeed petty.
>>
No. 65117 ID: cee89f

>>65111
I have a Raccoon change-god named Ouran on a forum roleplay...

>Sleep
... Uh... Would that Deva ever be conscious? Come to think of it, how would that even work? Would we put people to sleep whenever we go somewhere, a la Mystgun from Fairy Tail?

>>65116
If Saulanna wasn't part raccoon, I might very well have never read Lunar Quest.

THAT'S what I call 'petty' =P
>>
No. 65118 ID: ec0dea

As far as a stealth deva goes, I've been pondering how well a deva with the Element of Secrets and a Purpose of Protection would work for that. Would probably have some nice abilities through both, but unsure on the potential personality problems.
>>
No. 65126 ID: 629257

>>65117
>Sleep
Err yeah.. I was looking at illusions and dreams and stuff, I threw that in thinking that the element could be expressed in a more abstract way. I dunno. Forget it, I guess.
>>
No. 65128 ID: 406926

>>65109
I'm still backing having a purpose of something like "Protect Saulanna and all that is Saulanna's" for our stealth Deva, and then giving it either a stealth-related Element or simply the element of Stealth straight-up.
>>
No. 65131 ID: 629257

>>65111
Expanding a bit on my list here. Everything is pure conjecture, of course.

>Mask, Veil, Illusion
All of these are based on not being detected as we really are. They create a false front, but except for illusion might not completely hide presence. If a titans presence is noticed by not connected to us that is still a problem. All of them have handy peripheral uses though, and if they can hide our nature effectively might be the most fun of the lot.

>Mystery, Secrets
These hide us by simply making us unknown and unknowable, discovery simply does not happen. Possibly employing strange powers that no one notices or understands, not even us. Devas of these elements could be frustratingly reserved or even mute. On the upside, secrets of others may as well be an open book to us. overall Mystery specifically covers a wider base and should be stronger at its task, and Secrets would have more utility.

>Perception, Sense, Mind, Thought
The flip side of Illusion, these keeps the eyes and thoughts of others from being turned towards our nature. We'd also know if anyone was or would be looking at us. Being less direct of a protection means it might be weaker, but the likely advantage of all manner of divinations can't be underestimated. Sense would do wonders for our powers of awareness. Mind and thought could go as far as making others forget what they shouldn't have learned. Also perception could be more adept at foiling the scrying of others. Still, all of these may be better for other purposes, especially Seeing.

>Magic
A potentially powerful element, granting protection from magics that would discover us and enabling spells of invisibility and the like. Might be some problem with it as an element the same way soul or will was, not sure. Also probably more appropriate for another purpose.

>Dreams, Sleep
The idea here was to shunt our presence into a kind of unreality... not well thought out honestly. Might end up as a subsoul if we go for one of the Mind related elements.

>Contradiction, Paradox
We are what should not be, and these kinds of elements could do an end run around reality so it's as if we aren't. Or something. Possibly powerful, possibly troublesome.

>Change, Flux, Mutability, Adaption
These make us a shifty, tricky being to notice or pin down, squirming out of the way or becoming the thing that should have been there instead. Paths would open for us where none were, and close behind us as if they never were. Maybe. These are likely complicated elements with fun secondary benefits. Again, could better for another purpose.

>>65128
I don't think Stealth qualifies as an element, since it is inherently about action than substance
>>
No. 65134 ID: cee89f

>All of these are based on not being detected as we really are. They create a false front, but except for illusion might not completely hide presence. If a titans presence is noticed by not connected to us that is still a problem. All of them have handy peripheral uses though, and if they can hide our nature effectively might be the most fun of the lot.
I'd disagree for Veil and Masks. Masks can't make use invisible but could disguise us as something meant to be there, a suit of armor in a hall, for instance, or just make us seem unimportant.

Veil... I'm honestly not sure why you put this with the others. I might be reading too much erfworld, but Veil strikes me more like a regular ol' illusion you drape over something.

My vote's going to be on mask, unless someone has a better idea when we actually get to making Stealthy.
>>
No. 65135 ID: 629257

>>65134
Veil is sort of halfway between mask and illusion. Something to cover and obscure, rather than present another face. Additionally it applies to more broad ideas than face covering, as these two definitions show:

>something that covers, separates, screens, or conceals: a veil of smoke; the veil of death.

>a mask, disguise, or pretense: to find fault under a veil of humor.

In any case, whats important to know is what being stealthy about our titanic nature actually needs to do to be effective. Covering it up may be a useless method for all we know.
>>
No. 65137 ID: 5d121c

>>65131
>Magic

I don't think "magic" exists in this universe.

Sorcery, Charms, supernatural martial arts etc. sure, but what exactly would "magic" be?
>>
No. 65138 ID: cee89f

>>65137
Nitpicking.
>>
No. 65140 ID: 9b155d

I'd be worried about a Deva of Secrets. One, that treads directly on one of the Maidens and two it may want to keep secrets from us. Especially if it wants to "protect" us from certain information. If we something that hides information, a stealth deva with an element linked to information should work. Doesn't need to be a stealth deva of hiding information, as stealth should already cover that.

Masks is something I don't really mind, especially knowing that our other Devas influence one another. With a Time and Word Deva, plus the way Saulanna has acted very differently to a lot of different people depending on the circumstances(and more meta us) and persona originally literally meaning mask, I think the Devas nature would extend less into the artificial and more into the way one tries to present themselves to others.
>>
No. 65141 ID: 5d121c

>paradox

That would fit in great with the current two devas. A paradox of time and a paradox of language are two completely different things, though, and if a single deva would embody them both and relate to Wordblood and Kairosa just as well could be called... paradoxical.
>>
No. 65143 ID: 5d121c

>>65138
It's not that big of a nitpick. Why would a deva of "magic" be better than a deva of essence or sorcery?

>>65141
But now that I thought about it again, a paradox deva might actually piss off both Wordblood and Kairosa... Which might be fun but not for the right reasons.
>>
No. 65144 ID: 629257

>>65137
Sorcery..? I do not into Exalted well. Even if it isn't a specific thing, I imagine "magic" must mean something in this setting. A catch all phrase for anything supernatural that common folk don't understand, perhaps.
>>
No. 65146 ID: cf49fc

>>65144
Far as I can recall, Sorcery is powered by summoning demons and elementals, whereas Exalted Magic is powered by fuck-you-that's-why, or essence, at least according to the gods.
>>
No. 65147 ID: 406926

Kairosa has a Purpose extremely close to the element of Magic, that being "manage our magical energy and Titan's Will". We should be exceedingly careful with any Element that touches on either magical energy or Titan's Will for that reason.
>>
No. 65148 ID: 5d121c

>>65146
Summoning demons and elementals is just a tiny fraction of sorcery.

It's a type of essence use that's different from Charms in that it takes essence and shapes it into whatever, while charms are more instinctive and predefined based on the Exalted.

Basically it's kinda like what Primordi- er, Titans do.
>>
No. 65149 ID: f49bb8

>>65146
This is completely and entirely wrong. Ignore it. Let's wait for Jukashi to get around to posting about Sorcery and its divide from other forms of Essence manipulation, shall we? It is entirely possible that he has completely changed this particular facet of Exalted.

(For the rest of the posters-)
A better refutation of the objectors' arguments would be a post detailing your conceptualization of Magic as a primal force, suited to be Element. I myself have trouble thinking of how 'Magic' would manifest as the Element of a Lord Soul. (As an Element of a Noble Soul, 'Magic' would be easily restricted and defined, but so influenced by its Lord that expounding on one's views of 'Magic' as an Element is unhelpful, though.)
>>
No. 65155 ID: 92c81e

>>65147
Using "Magic" as an element is probably out. However a Deva whose purpose is using our energies for something, will definitely not conflict with Kairosa. Her purpose is feeding and managing our energies, not necessarily using them. She kinda does at the moment, only because we don't have more devas with more specific purposes.
>>
No. 65156 ID: 5d121c

>>65155
I don't see that being possible. All of the devas including Saulanna use energy. It's pretty much the thing that drives every single thing the devas do. Way too basic of a thing to make a deva around. The closest thing would be making sure energy gets used efficiently... and that's Kairosa.
>>
No. 65157 ID: 629257

>>65155
>>65156
An element of Energy has potential. Remember the danger is when two elements overlap or conflict, not ones element to anothers purpose. Kairosa wouldn't conflict because her purpose involves generating titans will and recycling souls, not mindlessly feeding on anything with power.

That said, Energy may not be applicable as an element due to being too general but I can't see why that would be a problem. Its purpose would be what narrows down the expression of the element. In this case, a combat purpose is probably ideal.

>>65149
I spoke in ignorance when I brought up magic... but thinking about it, everything exists in the world only because of a titan made it part of themselves. In a possible end game scenario, we could perhaps found a titan to *create* magic, if we wanted to give mortals some way of possessing real power in a world of exalts and the like, not this candle lighting level of parlor tricks. But of course this idea is waaay out there of course so who knows.
>>
No. 65163 ID: cee89f

>>65143
Point conceded, but still.

'Magic' is a word referring to a primordial force, whereas Sorcerey refers to a very specific TYPE of magic, and Essence refers to it's fuel source.

>>65157
No, but her purpose as Feeding Soul also includes energy MANAGEMENT. Having a soul who's made of energy would step on her toes because it would want to manage energy for it's own purpose. Because it IS energy.

>Magic as an element
I can see how it would work as an element for a soul, but it might just be too broad to work out like that... then again if we were playing Gaia I might've said the same thing about Life.
>>
No. 65166 ID: 4ede1b

>>65157
While I don't know about Lunar Quest, in normal Exalted mortals can get access to Terrestrial Martial Arts and either Sorcery or Necromancy on their own. It's supposed to take years of training or exposure to Wyld energies if they aren't just flat out gifted it by a God, Demon, Exalted charms or something else(which can give them access to other charm-sets). And then once the hard part of awakening their essence happens they have to do the also hard part of learning how to use it. And if they decide to go the Sorcery route they may get to find out the hard and likely fatal way that Demons and Elementals only listen to Exalts.
>>
No. 65179 ID: 3bad4c

>Having a soul who's made of energy would step on her toes

Clearly, it should be her first Noble? :)
>>
No. 65185 ID: 5d121c

>>65166
Essence can be permanently awakened in mortaly by (only celestial?) exalts and spirits and the like.

I know solars have a basic lore charm that does it.
>>
No. 65194 ID: 3734f6

>No, but her purpose as Feeding Soul also includes energy MANAGEMENT. Having a soul who's made of energy would step on her toes because it would want to manage energy for it's own purpose. Because it IS energy.

Yes, an element cannot conflict with a purpose. K's purpose is managing energy but she is made out of time. That would not conflict with a deva made out of energy that has another purpose.
Although I am not sure "energy" is a "valid" element, (the same way "souls" are not a valid element since souls are just shards of titanic will made manifest)

Rather, purposes can conflict with purposes and elements conflict with elements. Purpose conflicts are much less serious than element conflicts. The latter always results in one deva merging/consuming the other (which cannot be stopped even if they don't want to)
>>
No. 65195 ID: 38cd76

I never really got a hang of linking from other threads, but...

>>Kairosa is Time and Wordblood is Communication. Between the two of them, they can almost certainly literally tell the best stories ever, about anything that ever happened.

>>I love our devas so much. So. Much.

You know, if we add a masks deva on top of that, it only gets even better, as far as storytelling goes.

You know, as far as devas influencing eachother, Time and Communication probably makes either of them a pretty decent storyteller.

Heck, SAULANA's probably a pretty decent storyteller.

That's pretty sweet.

Just gotta get those ranks in Performance.
>>
No. 65198 ID: 49f539
File 135582535919.jpg - (56.44KB , 430x526 , fracktail_i_am_error.jpg )
65198

Just tossing this out for the sake of speculation, but in the vanilla Exalted setting yellow jade is basically an error-coloured magical material.

It only gets created by mistake, that particular mistake cannot be replicated and it does strange things with reducing the ammount of power it takes to operate an artifact.

What this suggests about the yellow dragon though, I have no idea.
>>
No. 65204 ID: 3bad4c

>The latter always results in one deva merging/consuming the other (which cannot be stopped even if they don't want to)
Remind Saulanna never to have any kids. Eww.

>error-coloured magical material
Yellow jade = reward for your subconscious bug report? :D

To-do:
1. Eat Souls
2. Gain TW
3. Improve competencies / powers / resistance / cynicism
4. Get rid of lady death hero and moon heroes. Permanently!
5. Survive.
>>
No. 65206 ID: bf54a8

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/CallMeCanon/Gaians#Emerald:_Purity_of_Jade

interesting fan theory on what yellow jade is. basically if each element is a brick in the building that is creation then yellow represents the mortar holding them all together. which if we look closely at the star made of the dragons. each elemental dragon loops around the yellow one once before leading to the next one.
>>
No. 65207 ID: 3734f6

>>65204
>Remind Saulanna never to have any kids. Eww.
Well, the devas she creates are sotra her kids and don't inherit the queen's element.
And if you mean external reproduction then devas do not merge between different titans. Sharing an element with another titan's deva can step on some toes but not cause the merge/consume effect.
>>
No. 65208 ID: ec6d4c

>>65194
>Purpose conflicts are much less serious than element conflicts.
Well, sort of, in that the consequences of making a deva with an overlapping element are immediate and fairly serious (consumption and merging). But conflicting purposes is a serious problem- because the problem isn't quickly resolved. Instead you get a long, drawn out battle for turf between two devas who don't get along... for basically forever! (Or until there's a major shift in the balance of power).

I mean, it's adorable and wonderful how well Wordblood and Kairosa get along. Imagine two that really didn't. We don't want that.

As for getting around potential conflicts by cleverly using the conflicting element as a purpose (or vice versa) I don't think that will work so well. A lot of concepts are really only well suited to one or the other.
>>
No. 65210 ID: 9860e6

Just a bit of a thought.

We have a Time Deva, which could help us find the metaphysical remains of Haht'hek, and have the chance to create a Rebirth Deva with the purpose of Healing. Couldn´t we use said remains, or use Kairosa to emulate them, and the Healing Deva to <u>recreate</u> Him? Would really help Creation, help us find Gaia and reunite her with Luna for maximum good will.
>>
No. 65211 ID: ec6d4c

>>65210
The only flaw in that plan is I got the impression from Kairosa's story that the reality consuming fires are still out there. And that Haht'hek's body continues to shield everything from them. So his resurrection would either doom everything, or serve only to allow him to die again.
>>
No. 65217 ID: cee89f

WHOA, HOLD IT!!

Right there.

Wordblood's fleshy bits wrote 'we can combine our po'(wers, i'm assuming). ASKASKASKASKASKASKASKASKASKASK!!!
>>
No. 65221 ID: 629257

>>65211
What if we just clip out a little piece of him from the inside, patch the hole with some titans will, and give it life by attaching a living soul to it like wordblood was?
>>
No. 65228 ID: 38cd76

>>65221
My vote is either Kaan or Gevin.

Rawr.
>>
No. 65229 ID: bf54a8

what is a part and what is the whole? cut a hole in a dam an the water will surge before you get the chance to fill it.

in order to die, the noble, the lords, and all the commoners that make up his devas would need to die together. removing just one of them could make the whole barrier collapse.
>>
No. 65230 ID: ec6d4c

>>65228
I'm not sure grafting up a new baby Titan is the best idea. Especially since we'd have to mind-wipe the recipient, first.
>>
No. 65234 ID: ee21e2

>>65230
Complications. In any case, I'm sure Wed be way better at it than peregrin was.
>>
No. 65235 ID: 370c40

>>65211
That doesn't sound insurmountable, but it's definitely something to consider if we try something like that. Idea isn't bad, just needs more planning to become something viable. Probably more information hunting too...we might want to come up with a Seeing soul of some kind eventually.
>>
No. 65252 ID: 6ec9e5

Suggested deva souls

Stealth: Space
Kinda matches Time, and it should be pretty useful for hiding without having too high an affinity for deception, which might conflict with Aide/Words.
Defense: Floating
If it works for Reimu, maybe it will work for here.
Seeing/Perception: Truth
We've heard this might be a workable combo.

I'm wondering if Depth of Comprehension can still be bought, and if it would go on Words or Time.

Probably important to examine the Hero Soul before making any further decisions. Figure it out, re-examine it using the Time powers. See if more can be learned about Wyld contamination, and any other changes that happened to its original condition.

I think there is still a Full Moon for asking questions of Luna. Aide/Truth would have had to pre-date the Exaltation and meeting Luna. It is quite possible that Luna would approve the situation, if there was enough approval for the HERO SOUL not to have been taken back then and there when it was handed out. It might be a good idea to confirm this, and to get some IC information about common lunar social mores. It also might be a good idea to ask about Moonsilver Tattoos.

Also on the Moonsilver Tattoos front, if one can agree with the Elders to get the Tattoos, if there is a delay first, one might be to get enough Will to upgrade the body to the point that one doesn't care about further upgrades. I imagine the whole process of Tattooing might take a fair amount of time. Even if it didn't, a delay of a month might enough to get a good amount of Will flowing. That said, this only takes mechanical down sides into consideration.

I've enjoyed what everyone has done here so far. Best wishes for the future.
>>
No. 65253 ID: 629257

>>65252
>Stealth: Space
Sounds fun, if only for the sneaky teleports. Might not be best for everything we need it to do though.

>Defense: Floating
Nah. Needs to be more fundamental and less limited in scope. I wonder if Emotion is a good element here? I was thinking we need a titan to keep us more based in humanity, and it seems we're trending away from that. As defense it would give us passionate reactions when provoked, which sorta fits with being a lunar. Plus it may have handy social uses which don't apply to combat-orientated elements so much.

>Seeing/Perception: Truth
Pretty much the default option, there. I can't help but think that truth has potential for problems, though. We have secrets to keep, after all.

As for the tattoos, what I'd most like is to be able to not get them, but say that we did later by having wordblood create false tattoos for us. It would also prevent them from spelling out our titanic nature. We should get our lunar friends to explain everything about them in detail, so that we have the know how to fake it.
>>
No. 65269 ID: 0fc8e2

>>65252
Tattoos aren't only for the body. OTOH, they're only supposed to stop external shaping.
>>
No. 65289 ID: 3e5241

>Stealth: Space
I like it; but I am not sure how suitable it would be.
Also we would have to do some convincing to go with space since the general view so far seems to be to use "masks" for stealth

>Defense: Floating
Floating is too specific, its more of a subset of gravity.
Gravity control would make for a bitching defense though...
Or heck, maybe even go with "motion"... TK, flight, etc.
I am not sure though that defense warrants its own lordly deva rather then being a noble under the lordly deva of combat.

>Seeing/Perception: Truth
Wouldn't knowledge be better
>>
No. 65293 ID: 629257

>>65289
What if we had a combat soul of Force, and it would later have noble souls of Mass for defense which could function like gravity, and Energy for offense?
>>
No. 65296 ID: 3e5241

>>65293
I think force (as in, natural forces like gravity and the like) is a bit too vague to be an element (kinda like how gaia has the various elemental dragons as lordly devas rather then a singular one whose element is called "classical elements"), but if it is valid it sounds like it would make a very powerful element for a deva.

I think neither "mass" nor "energy" fall under force though. They exert forces but aren't forces in of themselves.
To quickly rip off wikipedia, the fundamental forces are: Gravity, Electromagnetic forces, Nuclear forces (strong and weak).
Then you have non fundamental ones like: Normal force, Friction, Tension, Elastic force, Continuum mechanics...
So, plenty of power to work with.
>>
No. 65298 ID: cee89f

>Wouldn't knowledge be better

...Not... really. I mean, seeing Truth would basically accomplish the same thing seeing Knowledge would, right? Seeing things as they truly are would give us knowledge of what they are, and would pierce through illusion or lies pretty easily.

Not saying it'd be worse or even bad - just not sure how it would be better.

>Defense
I still advocate the War Element for the Defense purpose. We're trying to be a force for good in the world, and a passive/defensive purpose should mellow out the potential problems with having a creature made of War while giving us a lot of power.

>Stealth: Space
Eh... I'm iffy on this one. Even assuming that would work in this universe (I'm not convinced that it would, since pretty much everything is made of magic rather than matter) how would it work? Would we just sorta slip out of existence for a while? Seems kinda... counter-productive to bend space to try and be stealthy.

>>65217
So nobody else cares about this then. 'kay.
>>
No. 65301 ID: 629257

>>65296
While the idea of an elements of every aspect physics is compelling, I don't think the word would be understood that way in this setting, if the same physics even apply at all. I meant force in the more common use of pushing, representing kinetic energy of a heavy mass doing often destructive effect upon its target. The sub souls would be to manipulate each half of that idea. And Mass in this case is manipulation of weight.

Probably not the best idea, but I think it deserves a look at.

>>65298
>Truth
Truth can be a subsoul of knowledge. I prefer it not to be the principal seer soul because it may be difficult to hide the use of its power, and may be at odds with any soul with a purpose of stealth and the keeping of secrets in general. Maybe. Seems awkward at least.

>War
I don't see the advantage of it over something simpler and less associated with things we might not want to be about.

>Combine
He probably just meant to apply his wordsmith skills to her storytelling, since they had overlap in this case. Nothing special or fancy. But Kairosas oracle mode skill covers that all just fine.
>>
No. 65323 ID: 38cd76

>>65301
I think the truth soul would work far better with what we have already than, say, a Secrets soul, which would seem to be in conflict with Wordblood. He seems to have problems with hiding or inhibiting knowledge.

I don't think a truth soul with a purpose of seeing would really have much problems with keeping ourselves hidden though, necessarily.

We have to keep in mind, we're allowed to have devas of conflicting elements. Gaia herself has a lot of elements that seem to be at odds with eachother, imho.

My main concern with Truth is, as you say, it would function fairly decently as a knowledge subsoul.

On the other hoof, I think it works nicely as a Lord Deva in its own light. For that matter, it could probably have Light as a noble. Even Secrets as a noble.

Truth doesn't necessarily mean KNOWN truth. It's just things that are true, as opposed to things that are lies or otherwise false. Which is fairly encompassing.

And a seeing soul would just be, you know, truth for purposes of us seeing and things.

I like it.
>>
No. 65324 ID: 5fe1df

>>65296
Dunno about you, but I don't find the idea of being a titan of modern real world physics so great in a world that runs on pure Borgstromancy and doesn't even have some of the things you've listed.
>>
No. 65325 ID: ec6d4c

>>65323
I have to agree with this line of reasoning.

>>65324
Yeah... basing future Lord Deva elements on physical laws that may not exist in this setting doesn't seem like a great idea. Besides, I don't much care for the theme of celestial / physical forces. It seems too... literal and uncreative. I think we could do better.
>>
No. 65326 ID: 52c506

>>65325
>basing future Lord Deva elements on physical laws that may not exist in this setting doesn't seem like a great idea.

It's true that the setting as it stands has its own rules. However, Saulanna, as she becomes a Titan, has the ability to create and alter rules. For example, as Wordblood said, he is (or at least, will be, as it stands) in charge of air and water inside Saulanna's internal world. Therefore, air and water must both work differently inside Saulanna than they do in the wider world. Kairosa's presence, similarly, may allow time to work differently inside than it does outside. Saulanna totally has the option to just make up things that don't exist in the outside world yet. Whether that's a good idea is a matter I leave to you.

And it's not just in regards herself; with more power, the scope increases. The Dragon's Shadow, at some point, for some reason, adjusted the underpinnings of reality so that sorcery became A Thing, whereas previously it was not. And, when he took over the Underworld, he altered the rules of the setting such that non-autochthonian soulsteel couldn't exist any more.

Saulanna, in time, could gain the power to change the way the game is played.
>>
No. 65327 ID: 52c506

Er, whoops, that was me.
>>
No. 65328 ID: 5fe1df

>>65326
>The Dragon's Shadow, at some point, for some reason, adjusted the underpinnings of reality so that sorcery became A Thing
By the way, is Salinan Working still canon?
>>
No. 65329 ID: 629257

>>65326
>>65327
As it looks now we're gonna keep having these element discussions kinda in the dark, and only sort them out when it comes time to choose the next one. I think we should work out a plan with Wordblood some time, and go over all the elements we'd like to be about, and sort out what purposes they'd be best for. You know, actually have a plan for it all or it least part of one.

My related concern is that we're going to keep creating devas of abstract elements, without any elements to enforce our humanity. How much is Kairosa helping or hurting on that front? When should we be concerned about it? Would a single deva made of Emotion or Life or Flesh be enough to keep us grounded?
>>
No. 65331 ID: ec6d4c

>Would a single deva made of Emotion or Life or Flesh be enough to keep us grounded?
I'm not sure why those elements would help in the way you want, actually. It's hardly as if any of those concepts are human exclusive, or even human centric.
>>
No. 65332 ID: 629257

>>65331
Honestly? I have no idea what the criteria are, and I'm just throwing stuff out there.
>>
No. 65334 ID: cee89f

>Truth can be a subsoul of knowledge. I prefer it not to be the principal seer soul because it may be difficult to hide the use of its power,

Noble devas are a moot point for now - as Wordblood said, that's a LONG way off.

We don't really know enough about advantages and disadvantages of element/purpose pairings to make an accurate judge of this (we should ask our Devas) but I mainly like the idea that this thing would disappate illusions and falsehoods... well, passively. Like how Kairosa can freeze time without even really trying, she just sorta... DOES it.

Don't really see why just LOOKING at stuff would be all that obvious, but that's probably a potential issue we should ask about next time around.

The problem I have with knowledge (besides the fact that Wordblood could have it as a subsoul - he's our Aide, it could be very useful to him) is that A) the knowledge we find isn't necessarily going to true or useful, B) Making it only a SEER of knowledge feels like we're crippling it.

If, for instance, we gave a knowledge Deva an artifice purpose, he could innovate, build, outright create new things just from ideas and techniques we've learned of before.

>-may be at odds with any soul with a purpose of stealth and the keeping of secrets in general. Maybe. Seems awkward at least.
Maybe, but I doubt it. If we keep the deva's purpose Seeing, there shouldn't be that much of a problem, any more than having a stealth Deva would take away our sight.

>I don't see the advantage of it over something simpler and less associated with things we might not want to be about.

We could also pick something like 'battle' or 'combat' for the same result, if War is something we really need to avoid.

...

Just in case:

Well, for one thing, Saulanna is an aggressive individual, and war is... well, an aggressive thing. It'll compliment her personality well.

Secondly, making war a defensive Deva means that the deva won't be aggressive, just very, VERY efficient at battle, especially self-defense.

Thirdly, from what I understand of exalted, 'peace through superior firepower' is the only peace for Heroes. =P ... well, that and the idyllic future the protagonists create at the end, but that's a moot point in a game that is just based off of the universe as opposed to the actual game.

Finally, at the time this suggestion came up, it was as an alternative to War as an offensive element.
>>
No. 65356 ID: 5d121c

>>480078
I thought there was some lore about the Yozi needing to be really careful when making Solar sparks into Infernal ones so they wouldn't destroy them by changing them too much.

That could technically mean that the great curse makes the sparks vulnerable. To destruction, or getting eaten.
>>
No. 65358 ID: de5bc9

>>65356
To quote cross-board, include the board name before the post number. Like so >>/board name/######
>>
No. 65365 ID: cee89f

>>65359
Planning ahead never hurt anyone, especially when they have infinite time to talk about it =P
>>
No. 65368 ID: 3e5241

>>65329
You seem to be confusing "humanity" with "nice/good/moral/etc". so maybe you are going for "humane" which is defined as "marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for" (that word is a horrible mischaracterization of human nature if I ever saw one)

Furthermore, with the exception of dark and light which are OFFICIALLY holy and unholy due to UNFAIR and ARBITRARY divine law, no element discussed is making such a changes.

To arbitrarily make her weaker in order to keep her "more human" is a joke. Especially because she is not even a human in the first place, she is an exalted titan embryo formed from the remains of what WAS a human, the remains of what was a titan, and an exaltation soul/device thingie made by autochton and luna cooperatively. The human that was used as raw material to provide her human component was erased so fully and thoroughly that Keirosa cannot detect anything about its previous nature. Just as Keirosa is made out of titanic will fragments we recovered by recycling the soul of the steel forger, but she is in no way "him".

We are making her a full on http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMessiah already without shackling her to all those silly human associations.
>>
No. 65371 ID: 629257

>>65368
>"Select an Element based on your existing nature, and you will retain more of your humanity, both its insights and limitations. Choose one more distant from your mortal condition, and your new soul will grant us a broader range of potential powers, along with knowledge that would otherwise be beyond our reach; but, at the same time, the blinders of your mortal perspective will begin to slip away.

What we want to do isn't to keep her weaker like a mortal, but simply to keep her from becoming an inhuman, alien being in terms of her personality. It's the difference between ascending into something greater or simply becoming something else.
>>
No. 65372 ID: 1da170

It's helpful to hang on to some measure of humanity (for the moment, anyway), even though Titanic ascension is all about transhumanism.

Not because it's BETTER, but because beings with some measure of humanity are a hell of a lot easier for other Exalted to work with. The Titans got shanked the original time for being alien and inhuman.

Sure, you might be the host of an ancient god-killing superweapon, but your motivations are still human in scale. We need to at least be able to sell other Exalts on the idea of being "one of them."
>>
No. 65373 ID: 6965ea

She needs a touchstone. Go too far in the transhumanist direction in your thought processes (even with a great number of human-ish elements) and you end up with Time Lord Victorious. Go too far without a human touchstone and you end up with a Primordial. Either direction is fraught with its own perils. Exalts may stride across the earth as giants, but their feet are made of clay, and they forget or deny that at their own peril.
>>
No. 65379 ID: ec6d4c

>>65371
From this quote, I'm not entirely sure losing mortal perspective is a bad thing. It would just be different.

But if we're going to be all panicky about goddam and time lord victorious situations (oh boo-hoo, he tried to change that which should not be changed, and attached a value judgement to the lives of specific individuals. So awful!) you guys got any elements that actually would reinforce humanity? We don't have much of an existing nature to build on, and most of the few suggestions I've heard so far don't exactly seem as if they'd clearly help.
>>
No. 65387 ID: 6965ea

>>65379
Some aspects of Time Lord Victorious wouldn't be so bad, admittedly. The concern for individuals and persistance of concern over moral/ethical/humane/take-your-pick matters isn't a bad thing of itself. The hubris of the feat, however, is one of THE fatal flaws and certainly one that (provided it's even remotely possible to avoid in the long-term for a nascent Titan) we need to be very wary of.

One big issue of course in keeping Saulanna in touch with her humanity is that, frankly, she doesn't have any experience with being simply human that she can remember. Of course, what little we do know of her life from reports from Peregrine does suggest certain themes to consider, such as exploration. There are a number of others a life as a scavenger lord might suggest, but many of them hedge in towards various Incarnae or fellow-titans. Specifically: investigation, discovery, technology, elements of ledgerdemain or acquisition might or might not shade in toward the Dragon's Shadow (depending on how much he's changed from the Ebon Dragon and perhaps upon her intentions in such).
>>
No. 65389 ID: 6965ea
File 135621320478.jpg - (29.18KB , 500x375 , SEEFOREVER.jpg )
65389

>>65379

I admit finding elements that are exclusively human to reinforce would be difficult, given that most exclusively human traits in Exalted tend to be overwhelmingly negative, given that humanity was made to be fearful and worshipful in the face of circumstances they could not control. Beyond that, the feathers in humanity's cap mostly seem to relate to the Exaltations. But to tie into those, well, at the bare minimum you're treading on the toes of Lytek (should he still be around), the Incarnae, and possibly Autochthon as well.

The real trick seems to me to be to find universal traits and concepts which don't distance her too much from humanity (or at least the Exalted's) perspectives. To put it another way, we should probably try to avoid immediately jumping into things that are too terribly paradigm-shattering. All I'm really trying to say is that we probably shouldn't jump straight to ICANSEEFOREVER!

Image related: it's one of the things we should be a mite careful of.
>>
No. 65395 ID: a28731

>>65371
Where is this quote from?
Also, broadening one perspective beyond that of a mere human is not necessarily a bad thing.

>>65387
Why do you consider the previous owner of the "independent fragment of titanic will" (aka soul) to be saulana?
The argument can be made that this is more then mere memory loss, its recycling of soulmatter. Just like when saulanna recycled the soul of the soul steel forger into Keirosa.
>>
No. 65401 ID: ec6d4c

>Where is this quote from?
Wordblood, back in chapter 2.
>>/questarch/467608

Our humaness is an odd problem, to be sure. You'd think time would be a move away, but Kairosa actually seems more human than Wordblood in some ways. She takes things much less seriously, is into emotional displays, etc. Although maybe that's because she's descended from Saulanna while Wordblood isn't? Or it could just be attributed to their wildly different ages and that Wordblood has experienced way worse.
>>
No. 65402 ID: 6965ea

>>65395
She exalted as a Moon Hero. That requires a living human soul, generally. Souls without bodies placed into bodies are generally animate undead, not living beings, again barring high-end godly or titanic powers meddling with the process. Wordblood (the shard of said titanic being) has himself repeatedly emphasized his own limitations through how often he underestimates them. Fusing a soul to a body that isn't its own as anything but an undead requires causality-rewriting magics of immense scale. Unless the metaphysics have changed too terribly much, there is no such thing as a resurrection spell short of the workings of a fully strengthed titanic being.

Under the circumstances, largest chance of that body and soul not being matched to one another depend upon Peregrine being FAR cosier with the Dragon's Shadow or one of the other remaining Titans than we've been led to believe (something not beyond the realm of possibility if he feels justified that the omission protects us).
>>
No. 65405 ID: 6965ea

>>65402
To clarify the souls without bodies etc part:

In Creation, human souls have halves. As Wordblood put it before, Noble Souls and Beast Souls. Both parts of the soul are tied to their body, should they persist after death. What Peregrin implied is that somehow he scrubbed much of Saulanna's qualities off of her Noble soul, something which it seems rather odd in hindsight that he be able to do, but then, he is one of the death heroes associated with the day's breaking, and so weird magical tricks that shouldn't be possible do technically fall under his purview given sufficient resources, Death Power, age, and time.
>>
No. 65414 ID: 629257

>>65379
>you guys got any elements that actually would reinforce humanity?
I suggested Emotion earlier, that at least would keep us from becoming distant and unemotional. What purpose it would be best for is less obvious, however. Humanity as an element would even be more obvious to keep us normal but that's harder to find a use for.

>>65405
I wonder that if we get Kairosa to get a good record of who we used to be, if we could reintegrate some of that old personality into ourselves? At least the memories... I think not being an amnesiac would do more to keep us grounded as a human than any deva we create.
>>
No. 65417 ID: de5bc9

For remaining/becoming more human, wouldn't taking humans into Saulanna's soul hierarchy (i.e. making Akuma) be better than direct creation of a newborn deva, regardless of Element?

I mean, taking a human and turning them into a deva would result in a partial merging, and, if they haven't acquired some non-humanity, provide a better human-influence over the resulting Titan? A new deva made by directs shaping of Titan's Will wouldn't have that humanity that a human Akuma would provide, would it?
>>
No. 65420 ID: ec6d4c

>>65417
>Would making Akuma reinforce humanity?
Well, except for the fact that's not something humans do. Humans don't go around attaching people's souls to themselves and supplanting that person's will with their own.

And even if it did help keep us human, it would come at the cost individuality, as we dilute Saulanna's self with others.
>>
No. 65430 ID: 6965ea

>>65414
Remember what we were told about how Element reflects upon the deva's nature. An Emotion-elemental deva would likely be an absolute drama king/queen. They'd probably start no end of trouble amongst our souls because of the intensity and range of their feelings. And that's not even touching on the possibility of such a soul making Saulanna herself over-emotional.
>>
No. 65431 ID: 6965ea

Ultimately, it's likely to be impossible to avoid stepping on any toes whatsoever with what themes we evoke. The trick there is likely to pick and choose which toes to step on and when.

Beyond that, we should probably consider something along the lines of an overarching and unifying motif or set of themes to embody. Titans live and die on the strength of the concepts they embody, so having complimentary themes will ultimately serve everyone in our heirarchy once our inner kingdom gets to be a bit less sparsely populated.

So far we have a deva of Time in Kairosa and Wordblood is a soul of the Word. Our Hero Soul appears to be our Raccoon soul. We should avoid crowding out their potential growth in organizing our own souls.

I still think a soul of Truth has some merit. Likewise, I admit having a soul of Discovery or Adventure is appealing (though apt to be rowdy in the latter case).

Still, I do think we should wait to see how events unfold before we actually decide to manifest any new souls beyond Kairosa. Well, assuming we even could with our current or near-future reserves of Titan's Will.
>>
No. 65434 ID: 6965ea
File 135623816181.jpg - (77.27KB , 627x420 , and_now_its_time_for_something_completely_differen.jpg )
65434

Looking past what sort of souls and themes we should develop in the future, we have more immediate problems that require our attention.

After we find out what Kairosa learns about those souls, we'll have decisions and plans to make. If they are vile enough to merit absorption, then how will we use the power from that to help our present situation, and can we do so in a manner that isn't going to immediately brook suspicion?

If they aren't up to the par of detestation that the soulcrafter was, then what are we going to do? Do we absorb them anyway? If not, how are we going to address our obvious disadvantages without entirely tipping our hand about our quasi-titanic nature?

Also: (perhaps this is a debate for later) but perhaps we should ask Wordblood if there might be any long-term negative affects from only absorbing the souls and energies of those we deem despicable (beyond developing a habit of using OMNOMNOM YOUR SOUL IS MINE as a method of execution?)
>>
No. 65438 ID: ec6d4c

>Still, I do think we should wait to see how events unfold before we actually decide to manifest any new souls beyond Kairosa.
I agree with this five thousand and ten percent. We need more time and information before we can add new Devas to the mix, and we need to spend what limited resources we have applying the powers and Devas we do have effectively before we begin investing in something new.

>>65434
That said, if we do eat the souls, I think some of our immediate concerns are :

-Raising Saulanna's source force 1-2 levels (restoring or surpassing what we had before)
-A point of beauty (our excuse for leaving was to clean ourself up, and we need the edge in social combat).
-Some kind of upgrade or two to employ Wordblood better in social combat. We need more than the ability to auto internally rebuke arguments if we're going to overcome Ask and Kat.

Secondary Concerns (if we have the points):

-raising the soul force of our Devas
-putting everything we can spare into increasing TW generation
>>
No. 65446 ID: 5d121c

>>65434

I think wordblood said that it's just energy after the memories get filtered out.

And it's not really execution, as far as wordblood explained it, we are just doing the equivalent of what should have happened to everyone who becomes a ghost anyway.
>>
No. 65453 ID: bf54a8

lethe was built as a backup system to make sure the souls kept circulating when the titans weren't doing it themselves. before it was set up whatever titan was around would suck in the souls of the dead, process them and spit out a new one or two.


also, i wonder if with the new set up we can let our devas drive. our form on creation just suddenly changes personality as we let one take over the controls.
>>
No. 65455 ID: 3bad4c

Is it possible that there's no trace of her Noble soul because PK ripped it out whole and now it's in one of his soul traps?

That seems like a pretty obvious thing to check.
>>
No. 65456 ID: 6b1ed0

>>65455
Exaltation attaches itself to the Noble Soul. She couldn't become a Moon Hero if she didn't have one.
>>
No. 65458 ID: cee89f

>>65446
The problem isn't what happens to the ghost afterward - the problem is that we're still killing the ghost.

>>65438
Agreed - getting out of this situation takes top priority, and anything we can spare goes to TW generation.

>>65420
It's not like we can avoid doing things the average human wouldn't normally do - we're Exalted, AND a titan.

>>65401
From that quote, it seems the issue isn't avoiding elements that are fantastical and 'out there' like Time, Reality or Cosmicness, but choosing elements that reinforce both mortal perspectives and the kind of person Saulanna is.

Let's think here. What kind of things do we already associate with Saulanna as a human?
>>
No. 65462 ID: bf54a8

crazy idea. this place get's invaded by... something. and all the ghost civilians need to leave, but it's been locked to day so leaving will put them in the normal world where they would dissipate. so everyone hops into sualanna's inner world and she now has ghost city being built inside her. and who knows, maybe we can graft something akin to a lower soul to them so they can almost live again.
>>
No. 65464 ID: cee89f

>>65462
Saulanna can only hold around a dozen spirits in her at a time.
>>
No. 65467 ID: 629257

>>65464
I imagine should could increase that limit if she wanted. I really don't see it coming up, though.
>>
No. 65468 ID: 6965ea

>>65458
Eh, I wouldn't so much say that. If we entirely avoid anything fantastical, we're rather wasting the potential and point of being a titan. However, we also want to be careful and avoid doing anything stupid like making whatever soul whose purpose is communication or being a messenger a soul with the element of Arrogance or Dickery or Murder or somesuch.
>>
No. 65481 ID: bf54a8

apparently an exaltation tastes like mind blown.
>>
No. 65482 ID: 8098f4

"Mrs. Kairosa, how many licks does it take to get to the history of a Lunar Pop?"

"CAN'T TALK TASTEGASM."
>>
No. 65486 ID: 5d121c

Maybe we should get her to taste Peregrin's hero soul next. Hope she doesn't become addicted though.
>>
No. 65487 ID: ec6d4c

>>65481
In retrospect, we really should have seen that one coming.

This is going to be really embarrassing if it turns out the exaltation can talk.

"Really? Your first reaction is to come over and lick me? You don't even try a hello, first?"
>>
No. 65489 ID: 370c40

>>65487
It probably can't talk.

Not yet, anyways.

Masks would probably do really well with the whole The-World-Is-A-Narrative thing.
>>
No. 65490 ID: 4ede1b

>>65489
Masks as an element has been something I've favored since world as a narrative first came up. In terms of suggested stealth elements it's fairly human, doesn't overlap with other elements very much, there's very few other purposes it's that good a fit for, can't think of any big players who would have direct influence over it, and it's pretty flexible.
>>
No. 65491 ID: 521153

>>65490
And it's funny because raccoons have "masks" and... yeah.
>>
No. 65493 ID: 5d121c

>>65458
We aren't killing the ghost. The ghost is already dead.
>>
No. 65494 ID: 5d121c

>>65490
I like masks a lot when you put it that way. World as a narrative. It would also lend itself to being secret beyond being a stealth deva simply because we're a lunar in the first place.

The only conflict could come from interactions with the hero soul.
>>
No. 65495 ID: bf54a8

it may be that yellow jade has a LOT of aether in it. meaning if we can get even a little, it may give us a LOT of energy.
>>
No. 65497 ID: 629257

>>65490
>>65494
Additionally, between a Mask stealth deva and Wordblood I think we'll have no problem faking or getting around those tattoos.
>>
No. 65498 ID: bf54a8

>>65497
faking, maybe, get AROUND them? hell no, getting tats for real is game over.
>>
No. 65499 ID: 4ede1b

>>65498
While I doubt it'd be able to at the start, Mask does makes sense for changing just what exactly the Tattoos say about us. That said, I still don't want them because going to get them means being around a bunch of Lunar Elders. Even worse they'll all likely be suspicious with us being this chummy with a Death Hero, even or perhaps especially if they think he's our bond mate.
>>
No. 65500 ID: a28731

One the best things about masks is that by definition you can take them off and the mask does not alter what is underneath it.

Emotion is an extremely dangerous element, it would not only be a drama queen but make the titanic entity as a whole more of a drama queen. Remember that the devas all influence each other. Uncontrolled emotions are dangerous. Also not in any way more human, humans can control their emotions fairly well.
>>
No. 65503 ID: 629257

>>65498
What I'm thinking is that if we have the Mask deva BEFORE getting the tattoos that we can use its power to accept them onto a kind of metaphysical second skin. Then tattoos then wouldn't really be on US. It would be like branding a fur coat.
>>
No. 65504 ID: bf54a8

>>65503
oh, yes if we got it's soul force high enough before hand. the moon tats are VERY strong magic. like, soul force 7, maybe. before that it could go deep enough to reach the real us even through the mask.
>>
No. 65505 ID: 370c40

>>65503
It seems almost certain that we could probably do that with Masks. The only question really is probably how much it would cost to do. Like it might be a particularly expensive ability? Or it might be pretty cheap, who knows. Also it might not work exactly the way you said depending on the nature of our deva. Still could probably accomplish the same thing, though.

Other good abilities for masks are making titanic powers appear to be Lunar ones, or enhancing the effectiveness of forms we steal using Lunar shapeshifting somehow, since those are masks. Also reducing the flare up of soul fire, minimizing or removing any obvious physical changes that might come about because of Titan stuff, hiding ourselves in fate behind a more mundane mask(I'm not sure how necessary this would be in the default setting but Kairosa said they upgraded the Loom of Fate)..
>>
No. 65506 ID: ec6d4c

>>65493
Semantics. The ghost is currently a sapient independent entity, we're choosing to end its current existence. Its meta-state of death/undeath is largely irrelevant.

>Potential Masks solution to moonrunes
That's a cool idea, except for the fact that not getting tattooed seems to be a pretty immediate problem- we may not have time to get a new deva up and running before we need it. (the Lunars want to leave as soon as the sun rises, don't seem particularly concerned how willing we are to leave, and soon as we clear the shadowland, Ask has a rapid transit magic of some kind. Worst case, we could be before the Lunar elders in less than a day). We're going to have to finesse the next social engagement to somehow buy ourselves more time.

...or have Kairosa cheat and push back the dawn still further? Although, since TDS is the one messing with underworld time, he's likely notice that. Which would be bad.
>>
No. 65510 ID: bf54a8

>>65506
except most ghosts are in a state of simply going through the motions. ontological inertia being the only thing holding them together. only the top power ghosts can think for themselves, like the captain, because they have enough raw energy to think without their lower soul still attached.
>>
No. 65515 ID: 370c40

I wonder if Kairosa is freaking out because of the Great Curse.
>>
No. 65516 ID: de5bc9

>>/quest/480654
Solars did not, does not, and will never have a monopoly on being Legendary Jackasses.
>>
No. 65517 ID: 5d121c

>>65506
It's not semantics. The ghosts aren't supposed to exist. They are the cause and perpetuation of a mockery of nature that should not exist.
>>
No. 65519 ID: ec6d4c

>>65517
Quibbling over terminology- refusing to use the word "kill" or "death" simply because of what they are is semantics, pretty much by definition.

Whether or not ghosts should exist, or whether it's moral and/or beneficial for us to end them has no bearing on that.
>>
No. 65520 ID: 5d121c

>>65519
So the creation of lethe was the most monstrous act in exalted history?
>>
No. 65522 ID: 370c40

>>65520
No, but it WAS sorta lazy.
Also your argument isn't going to convince anyone in the thread to start eating any but the most evil ghosts, so you are basically beating your head against a brick wall here.
>>
No. 65525 ID: 5d121c

>>65522
Please try to not make this personal.

I'm arguing a point that you are dismissing as simple semantics, and I don't know how to restate it better for your benefit. But I won't let you pretend there is no point.

As for what I think we should do, morally? Send the ghosts to lethe. Go find another shadowland. Restore the spirits there, too. Repeat.

But that would be much more boring than what we're doing now. So we should find a good way to get some more TP. Eating the most evil ghosts and no others is kinda despicable in itself, to me. We should find the ones that are the most dangerous or the ones that are caught up in the most despair, and do those. Or, you know, find something that isn't/wasn't a mortal and get power from that? Like demons or fair folk.
>>
No. 65526 ID: 3bad4c

Well, Merry Holidays and such to you all..

but I still think this is the craziest conversation to be having in a kill or be killed (or worse) situation.

I'm against building the 'Titan of Fail', to be blunt. I wish you'd stop your faux intellectual discussion about the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few and instead think about the needs of the story again.
>>
No. 65527 ID: bf54a8

if lethe never was built. then after the titans were locked up, after someone dies they would have nowhere to go. they would be trapped in limbo at best. and no children would ever be born. all of creation would at best have ghost towns, but they would just repeat what they were doing in life, nothing new would ever be made. and at worst the hungry ghosts would eat everyone and then battle each other until a single supreme ghost was left.
so yeah, lethe was a good thing.

and as wordblood said, he who bleeds the unknown word cared almost nothing for the gods, but loved humans. the gods were the ones who wanted the titans gone the most.
>>
No. 65530 ID: 521153

>>65525
You do realize that you are advocating seeking out thinking beings to destroy for our personal benefit, against their will, right? A will that I would suggest is the primary meaningful dividing point between things we can conscionably pursue for Titan's Will and those we can't. Not without some other motivation anyway. Self-defense, political interests, the usual.

As for the lethe thing, well, if a ghost doesn't want to go and can communicate this to us... would you really want to force them? I wouldn't.
>>
No. 65531 ID: cee89f

>>65526
And you are advocating that we stop thinking.

Call me crazy, but I think that it a HECK of a lot worse than discussing the potential moral implications of DEVOURING SOULS. Especially when morality is incorporated into the game system!
>>
No. 65532 ID: ec6d4c

>>65525
>But I won't let you pretend there is no point.
Actually, that's pretty much the same point I'm trying to make.

You don't get to pretend there's no moral implications to ending the existence of a thinking, sapient creature with a will of it's own just because, technically, it's already dead. We may very well have to kill some ghosts, but we shouldn't be dismissing or dehumanizing them to justify it. That's all I'm trying to say.
>>
No. 65533 ID: 5d121c

>>65530
Yes. You do realize you're arguing the same thing by saying we should do it if they're "evil" souls, right?

And yes, I think ghosts should be forced to go into lethe. Their existence is part of the tide of forces that are destroying the world.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of eating souls at all. But if we are doing it we should not excuse ourselves. We are destroying a sentient being. If there should be any discrimination done here, it should be to determine how to minimize damage, not to punish souls for being evil.
>>
No. 65534 ID: 5d121c

>>65532
The point was that it SHOULD be dead, not that it is already dead.
>>
No. 65536 ID: bf54a8

oh sure yeah. but the other guy
>>65530
is saying that eating souls is so bad we should not do it anymore ever. and that the natural order of things is actually evil.

without realizing that almost all ghosts have only a half existence. a fresh made ghost usually stands exactly where it came into being forever unless acted upon by an outside force. like what we found gevin doing. he was stuck doing the last thing he was doing when he died. and until we came along he would of stayed there for all eternity, or until his own lower soul ate him. the really strong souls will become ghosts that start awake. but for all of them he biggest problem is they can't make anything new. a ghost's creativity is basically nil. making things they already know about is easy. but they will never write a book, make a painting, tell a story.
>>
No. 65538 ID: ec6d4c

>>65534
Kind of a dangerous line of thought to follow, really.

All the death heros should be dead, except for the interference that brought them back. Wordblood should be dead, but was given new life with Saulanna. By several metrics, Saulanna herself probably shouldn't exist.
>>
No. 65539 ID: bf54a8

titan's weren't supposed to die in the first place. is why the yozi's are flipping out so hard, they are trapped in an eternal tormant on the line of life and death. so yeah, worblood is supposed to be alive, heck, HWBTUW is supposed to still be alive. the killing of the titans is why the dead lands even EXIST and 99% of ghosts are around because of that. so yeah, all the bad shit is going on because the natural order was fucked with that first time when the gods overthrew the titans.
>>
No. 65543 ID: ec2e47

it seems contradictory for us to give obeying the natural order have any more value that the practical. As a titan, isn't our job in the natural order is to define the natural order?
>>
No. 65545 ID: bf54a8

>>65543
not quite. the world runs on stories. changing that fact is currently impossible, even for a full power titan, because it's been going on for so long it's a law etched in adamantite. as was explained in the update, what is REAL is based on both how big it is and how long ago it was. but, AGAIN, ghosts are not really alive. they are echos of life. they are surviving vestiges of a life.
>>
No. 65546 ID: 370c40

>>65545
But they are still thinking beings and the argument that 'they shouldn't exist' isn't going to convince the majority to murder all of them, which is what I was saying. It's not a very convincing argument for serial murder. And ghosts AREN'T contributing to destroying the world anymore, apparently! The Dragon's Shadow apparently did something to shut up the Neverborn? We don't know enough about the current situation unless we decide to take a trip to the underworld.
>>
No. 65547 ID: bf54a8

and i'm not saying kill them all, i'm saying getting all bent out of shape about it is dumb. if we need to kill some ghosts so we can survive then so be it. i am not letting us die because we didn't want to eat someone when we REALLY needed the power.
>>
No. 65554 ID: 521153

>>65536
Hey now, I never said we don't eat us some ghosts if we have to. All I'm saying is that the fact that they are ghosts shouldn't be playing into the decision. I'm willing to eat dangerous criminals for a needed power-up, regardless of whether they are living or dead.

And no, it isn't to "punish" them. If we have to eat someone and we basically do, chose the targets that cause the least collateral. In this case, imprisoned ghosts that are huge jerks who generally cause more harm than good to those around them. I'm not going to bother claiming that killing them is a morally good or just act, but it is at least not as bad as eating random people other people might care about or rely on. Which highlights just how convenient these prisoners are; they are unlikely to be missed.

tl;dr:
Ghost or not, if we need to kill to survive, we kill. But don't let "they're a ghost" cheapen the weight of the act. People is people.
>>
No. 65556 ID: 5d121c

>>65538
I disagree for most of those. Death Heroes shouldn't exist. The rest are perfectly fine as far as I see it.
>>
No. 65557 ID: 4ede1b

>>65505
>hiding ourselves in fate behind a more mundane mask(I'm not sure how necessary this would be in the default setting but Kairosa said they upgraded the Loom of Fate)

One of the most basic charms an Infernal can get(They use Yozi charms) in normal Exalted allows for that, and is actually rather varied in that it allows the Infernal to take the form and false fate of a made up mortal or the unexalted version of themselves. If we have a Deva with an appropriate element, assuming the upgraded Loom doesn't cause us problems(not a guarantee of course), we might be able to get that at our current Soulforce. The charm is Loom-Snarling Deception and it's Essence 2 and has no pre-requisites. Essence 3 expansion charm makes them appear as mundane from magical sight too.
>>
No. 65563 ID: b2dde6

>>/quest/480709

Lytek only decides which memories Exalts get to keep- he presumably can't erase the past of the exaltation itself, which is what Kairosa probably is tasting right now.
>>
No. 65590 ID: 3bad4c

>I could taste Autochthon's hands from when he made it!
Element Time is officially the best decision ever made in any quest, ever.
What a wonderful belated xmas present.
>>
No. 65591 ID: ec6d4c

>>65590
Selecting an element really would have been much simpler if we had been thinking in terms of "what do you want to lick" rather than "what do you want to draw power from".
>>
No. 65594 ID: 406926

>>65591
I have to admit, I'm looking forward to waking up and then immediately telling Peregrin "Drop all your magical defenses and kiss me. Now."

Then finagling Akatrina into doing the same thing, without catching on as to why we want it... somehow.

In fact we can just run around shoving our tongue down everyone's throats to learn as much about them as possible. Now that's comedy.
>>
No. 65595 ID: de5bc9

>>65594
...No. Just-

No.
>>
No. 65597 ID: 38cd76

>>65595
No means yes, right?
>>
No. 65598 ID: de5bc9

>>65597
Sexual harassment is not cool, man.
>>
No. 65599 ID: ec6d4c

The main hurdle of using that ability isn't making with the smoochies. It's somehow explaining away why when we touched their hand it felt like we were licking their soul. :V

Although, seriously, I'm not sure what the point of using it on Peregrin would be. I mean, he's an ally, and he can speak. The whole point of tasting the past would seem to be to get information from subjects incapable or unwilling to communicate.
>>
No. 65600 ID: 521153

>>65599
There are subjects that Peregrin is incapable of communicating with us on, due to oaths he has previously made.
>>
No. 65601 ID: 77b50b

>>65600
We should probably try to figure out as much as he can tell us about the terms of the oaths. Hopefully, as long as we don't tell him exactly what the power does until afterwards, it won't violate his oaths.
>>
No. 65602 ID: 4ede1b

Guys, taking the chance that oaths bound to DS aren't tricky enough to trigger when someone else finds out from you without you knowing is a big risk. Tricky is what he does.
>>
No. 65603 ID: bf54a8

what if we put him inside us? being in the world of another titan will probably fuck with the ability to tell.
>>
No. 65605 ID: 4ede1b

>>65603
I have no idea how to respond to that as I have absolutely no idea why you'd think that would change anything unless the Titan was very strongly linked to something that is the antithesis of oaths and bindings.
>>
No. 65606 ID: cee89f

>>65598
Especially when you consider that Peregrin may be physically compelled to obey by his true name oath.

Also, Akatrina would be able to tell what we were doing to her if we tried it on her.
>>
No. 65607 ID: 406926

>>65599
>Although, seriously, I'm not sure what the point of using it on Peregrin would be.
We're in a real rush here. While Peregrin would be willing and able to tell us about himself and what he can do, by giving Kairosa that information we become able to receive it instantly via our inner world instead of spending hours talking with Peregrin about his capabilities. Additionally, since Kairosa will keep that information going into the future, she'll remain able to answer questions about Peregrin as they come up, even if it might not be convenient to get the information from Peregrin himself at any given moment.

An example of when this might be useful is when we were talking to the Moon Heroes and Akatrina and wanted to pass secret messages to Peregrin, but didn't know what system(s) for passing secret messages in a conversation he might be familiar with. It's not the sort of thing we'd thought to ask him in advance, but it is the sort of thing that Kairosa could likely tell us he knows after tasting him.

The oaths could be a problem, I admit. Unfortunately, knowingly attempting to circumvent the oaths (including telling us their limitations so that we can exploit them) is much more likely to trigger them than just having his past read without any knowledge on Peregrin's part of what is going on.
>>
No. 65612 ID: 3bad4c

>>/questarch/474217
>>/quest/480878

Hmm. Source of odd behaviour found?
>>
No. 65613 ID: 4ede1b

>>65607
>The oaths could be a problem, I admit. Unfortunately, knowingly attempting to circumvent the oaths (including telling us their limitations so that we can exploit them) is much more likely to trigger them than just having his past read without any knowledge on Peregrin's part of what is going on.

I think the safest route is to not bother with it as I see the gains as far too limited compared to the risks. We could alert the DS while pissing him off and we could get Peregrin fucked over. And the gains are getting information from Peregrin in advance in case we don't think to ask or learn something from him beforehand and learning about what DS is up to when the guy bound to act in our best interest has said what he knows isn't something to worry about.
>>
No. 65618 ID: 3bad4c

>>/quest/480967
Well, if I'm lucky I've saved us hours of puzzling, dire consequences and skipped to the end of this plot point.

If I'm not lucky, I just made everything worse! Ha ha.
>>
No. 65620 ID: bf54a8

i am fairly certain that she tasted the raw anger INSIDE the curse itself. it was so much anger that it made her angry as well. she is not subject to the great curse.
>>
No. 65622 ID: 3bad4c

I'm just guessing it's safer to assume the worst.

Oh crap I just realised that it's only other posters that have quoted "great curse", it's never been acknowledged as something the characters actually know anything about!

I need to go delete my post. :( Also I couldn't spell Kairosa right, so I fixed that.

It's now >>/quest/480979 and one day it will be >>/questarch/480979
>>
No. 65623 ID: 521153

>>65618
I think the problem is that nothing you said improve the situation. Even if your assumption is correct, your words come off as a taunt rather than reassurance.

And the idea of making a deva to contain the effects of the Great Curse is questionable since we can only assume the Lunar Exaltation will exert influence over other Deva we make, like it did with Kairosa. If your theory is correct, the Curse will have a greater effect as we create more Deva. We should be able to deal with it somehow if we are indeed experiencing Great Curse leakage, but it will require more information and power. I don't think just throwing Deva at it would help.
>>
No. 65627 ID: 3bad4c

You're right! Well, another delete and repost later, I hope I've softened the blow. :/
>>
No. 65692 ID: cee89f

>Beauty

We really shouldn't be focusing on this. A dot of Beauty would give us +1 to our Will-based attacks, but as mentioned the in the quest thread, Akatrina was kicking our butts by a LOT more than 1 point.

...

Actually... I have a question for our devas:

Is there some way we can use our MP or TP to boost our defense against Akatrina's attacks, as opposed to using it to boost our offense?
>>
No. 65693 ID: ec6d4c

>>65692
A point in beauty isn't a terrible investment. Yes, it won't win battles for us by itself, but it is our core social stat, and it's a reasonably cheap investment with immediate benefits compared to spirit force or TW generation improvements.

That said, I don't think we should be spending any TW till we've eaten the ghosts or decided to spare them and we know exactly how big a pool we have to work with. Beauty is also hardly the only thing we have to consider investing in, see >>65438.
>>
No. 65694 ID: 4ede1b

>>65693
Remember what Jukashi said about more powerful magical beings being harder to convince of things. Soul Force increases our Social Combat Hp Stat which is pretty important when we have two Devas who can heal us. Our opponents can't just keep throwing the same arguments at us, so increasing Soul Force could let us outlast them when combined with our healing. That's in addition to all the other nifty things that require Soul Force. Oh, and we have to bring it back to normal anyway otherwise someone will probably notice. Also don't want to be going back in with less Social Combat HP then we had before(Was that called Will? Can't remember)
>>
No. 65695 ID: cee89f

>>65693
I didn't mean it was a terrible idea - or even a bad one - but since we'll only get a slight bonus at the moment from that, we might be better served by upgrading Wordblood's abilities.

>>65694
Soul force affects our will score? Huh. Okay, that might be our best bet, actually...

... Though, come to think of it, we don't know how much WP Akatrina has, nor how important she considers getting us on her side to be. So upgrading World Reading until we can would be a good idea too... Hmmm... this is tricky. We'll have to see how much TW we get from this to make an accurate judgement, but I'd say SF and World Reading would be our two best bets - at least enough to see how much WP our opponent has.

Then we pour whatever's left into Kairosa so we don't have to eat another soul.
>>
No. 65696 ID: 4ede1b

>>65695
Acording to this post >>64545 Will Points are determined by a combination of Soul Force and Discipline.
>>
No. 65698 ID: bf54a8

yes soul force would give us more WP while beauty would give us both more attack and defense, essentially. as it stands akatrina has one point over us in beauty, meaning she can take WP with even flimsy arguments.
>>
No. 65735 ID: 70e253

Various thoughts some obviously silly.

Can we pull competencies from past lives via Time and Words yet? Can we get at least some idea about Lunar social mores? Anything we can learn about the First Age, the Death Lords, and the timeline? (The last life of the exaltation probably didn't die more than ten years before current time, I'd guess. Can we find the Noble Ghosts of the past lives?)

Ghost element deva? Geometry element deva.

Listening or whispering purpose deva?

If Time still gives the competency and other memory eating bonus that Words gave, perhaps Lethe could be tapped into, for collecting memories. In other words, use it to boost competency, and to collect intelligence, passively, but probably not for Titan's Will. Main issues are that it would likely take much Titan's Will, a Titan (especially the Dragon's Shadow) might already be doing it, and the opportunity cost might be too high.
>>
No. 65744 ID: a28731

Why are people declaring tattoos to be immediate problem?
Lets say the lunars get everything they want and cart us away tomorrow.
We now have months of training, and even if we don't get the tattoos at the end there are still weeks until we are even expected to make the choice (and we can just delay the choice).
At the end of months of training and perhaps doing missions for luna and showing good will we will be given the choice to have the tattoos, and it is a choice because others have been allowed to refuse them outright before.
>>
No. 65747 ID: 15b5e6

>>65744
It's less getting tattooed being the immediate problem (though it is a problem) it's more losing our autonomy. We're dangerously close to ending up controlled by Ask and Garm or Kat and TDS.

Going from the behind the throne ruler of this shadow land- where we can do basically whatever we want, and only have a limited worry about having to hide our identity, to a conscripted initiate / recruit where we have to follow orders, and work hard to conceal what we are, is not an upgrade.

Also, I'm not sure why you think getting the tattoos would be optional in the end.
>>
No. 65748 ID: a28731

>>65747
>It's less getting tattooed being the immediate problem (though it is a problem) it's more losing our autonomy. We're dangerously close to ending up controlled by Ask and Garm or Kat and TDS.
I agree that we are dangerously close to loosing our autonomy, but I disagree that this is what the people yelling about tattoos being an immediate problem "meant". I believe they meant exactly what they said and just have happened to not been paying attention

>Also, I'm not sure why you think getting the tattoos would be optional in the end.
We were explicitly told so. Some lunars choose not to get tattoos at all.
They COULD have lied but I doubt it.
>>
No. 65749 ID: 4ede1b

Remember that "optional" means as long as we don't get social combat'd into accepting. Given the circumstances, I'm expecting that if we go with the Lunars that we will inevitably have to deal with Social Combat powerhouses simply because they won't want us thinking highly of Death Heroes, and I don't see why they'd skimp on adding in Tattoos if they're already taking out their social heavy hitters.

That said, yeah, Tattoos aren't an immediate threat. Being talked into going with the Lunars in an immediate threat.
>>
No. 65750 ID: 15b5e6

If they're concerned about people who don't get tattooed turn into rampaging monsters, it doesn't make much sense for them to allow people to walk away from them. I expect we'd be compelled into it.
>>
No. 65752 ID: a28731

>>65749
We have a huge massive advantage in such a social combat in that we know they are harmful to us, that we don't need them, and that the person recommending it doesn't know either.

Also we would have had weeks (at least) of training and upgrading and so on to shore up our social combat, which already gets a big boost from having WB and Keirosa countering internally.

We could always just buy time to "think about it" promising not to transform for the month or two we ask to make the choice.

And again, this is not an IMMEDIATE threat. There are far greater issues with going with lunars than having to choose tattoos a few months into training. For example we could easily be exposed as a titan.
>>
No. 65753 ID: a28731

Ok so... if we get revealed, even if we have good will and receive mercy we can easily be neutered with binding oaths or just some good old mutilations (for example, by removing keirosa and wordblood and leaving only saulanna's human soul and the exaltation spirit)

An idea comes to me, if we can figure out what exactly causes the failure of the lunar exaltation to have adapted to the chaos (I am guessing titanic curse) and then solve it for all lunars (or at least, all who saulanna interacts with to enact said solution) in a way that does not require locking their caste and depends on saulanna maintaining her power. This is both good will towards and a form of insurance.

Although, tying the cure to saulanna's well being rather then giving it unconditionally can be seen as underhanded as well
>>
No. 65756 ID: 15b5e6

...I'm not sure how "tattoos not an immediate threat" makes going with Ask and Garm look anything like a good idea. The loss of autonomy is a serious threat!

We'd be going from a position of relative control with resources and servants at our disposal, to one of servitude, instruction, and hiding. If you're worried about exposure as a titan? Our odds of exposure go way up if we're being indoctrinated in the lunar colony or whatever. And it's going to be hard to learn and grow titanic powers in an environment where discovery is a constant threat- and I think you seriously overestimate our chances in social combat against a group of lunar elders (Kat almost 1hit KO-ed us. I'm sure a group of them could as well).

I mean, it's probably a better option than getting controlled by TDS, but we should be looking for a way to remain independent here, not jumping at the better of two bad options!
>>
No. 65759 ID: a28731

>...I'm not sure how "tattoos not an immediate threat" makes going with Ask and Garm look anything like a good idea. The loss of autonomy is a serious threat!

I don't know where you get the notion that I am suggesting we go with them or that going with them is safe.
What is so difficult to understand here? I am not arguing we should go with them, i am saying that the tattoos are NOT what is at stake to tomorrow and nor is it an immediate threat. There are many many reasons why going with them is a bad idea and all of which will actualize far before the tattoos issue.
>>
No. 65760 ID: 4ede1b

>>65752
>>65753
The fact that you're just dismissing the possibility of multiple elder Lunars ability to social magic us into doing or thinking something seems massively irresponsible. Even if knowing it has bad effects makes it impossible for them to convince us that it by itself is bad, and when Charms are involved impossible is not something you want to bet on, they can still convince us that the social gains and it being a sign that we're with them are the greatest things ever. Being surrounded by multiple older Exalts, especially without Peregrin with us, is risky as all hell.

>>65756
Yeah, exposure is a bigger issue with the Lunars too.
>>
No. 65761 ID: 15b5e6

>>65759
I think it's the part where you starting explaining how we would deal with some of the threats if we went with them that gave me the idea?

But whatever. We agree that going with them is bad, and tattoos are bad (though not immediate). Moving on.
>>
No. 65803 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/482232
...Huh? You start out disagreeing with that first sentence and then... wha?

Also, Gaia's left reality. Luna has been shacking up with Sol, if I remember correctly.

>>/quest/481899
That is a very dangerous thing to think, let alone base our actions on. Doubt and guilt over actions that he knows is wrong are the marks of a good woman. He shouldn't be thinking that she can do whatever he wants just cuz it's the first solution presented to him.
>>
No. 65804 ID: d42c7a

>You start out disagreeing with that first sentence and then... wha?
I believe he or she was trying to say something along the lines that a rigidly amoral position is dangerous for someone in as powerful a position as we are in, and that no matter how craptastic or amoral you might think the setting is, it doesn't justify us acting that way, when we're in a position to change things.
>>
No. 65806 ID: bf54a8

except soul eating ISN'T amoral by an standard. if the titans made people and then didn't eat the souls then when you die, that was it, you would simply turn into a puff of degenerate proto-energy if you were weak. if you were strong willed you would become a ghost and i mean strong willed as the captain. and as wordblood said before HWBTUW LOVED humans but he still ingested their souls, because that is how you recycle them, that was how the very foundation of the world was set up. lethe was built on TOP of that foundation as a bypass so someone didn't need to always stand around eating the people that died and making new babies. the damage to lethe is why ghosts weaker then really fucking strong are around. they are coming out of the damaged sections.
>>
No. 65808 ID: d42c7a

>>65806
I was addressing Saulanna's position as a whole (either trying to be moral or amoral entity) not the morality or immorality of a specific action (say, noming souls).

And in this context there's a distinction between an amoral stance (one not concerned with morality or right and wrong) and immoral (wrong) actions.
>>
No. 65809 ID: 370c40

>>65806
By 'damage to Lethe' do you mean the existence of the Neverborn? And I still don't see how that makes any of it any less amoral. Also you are using a bunch of meta knowledge that may or may not be completely wrong now, because the Dragon's Shadow TOOK OVER THE UNDERWORLD AND COMPLETELY CHANGED THE NATURE OF IT.
>>
No. 65812 ID: cee89f

>>65809
I'm not the most versed in Exalted lore (I haven't even bought a sourcebook - no one around here to play with) but I was under the impression Lethe and the Wheel of Reincarnation were functions of the Yu-Shan and the Celestial bureaucracy, not the Underworld.
>>
No. 65848 ID: 9db85e

>>65812
I believe you are correct. The underworld was not meant to exist. It was carved into existence as beings who were too large to die did so.

Calling something amoral doesn't really make it wrong. We shouldn't really try to attribute our morality to a being that DEFINES morality.

As it is, I see nothing wrong with Saulana nomming on some souls. they have no estate, no next of kin, they're effectively dead both physically and spiritually. The only thing that they have going for them is that their memories are still tied to a bit of spirit matter, which is a waste. Better we put it to good use, rather than let it continue to be squandered away.

I mean, if there was a horrible misunderstanding and they're actually some sort of hero of light or something, yeah, maybe there could be a reason to release them, but otherwise... effective cost analysis says nom them.
>>
No. 65852 ID: 30ffeb

This soul-eating debate is never going to end, is it.

People've been talking about this ever since the soul-eating started in the very first chapter. That's quite a while. The same points keep getting raised, few minds're changed, and by this point it's became rather a boring discussion.

Just make suggestions as you see appropriate when the time comes to deal with souls. Other than that, it might be better to let the matter die.
>>
No. 65858 ID: cee89f

>>65848
ehh... even if they ARE some kind of "hero of light", it's not like we can help them. We've been told they're thought of as slavers by the rest of the Shadowland, and we can't change how the entire shadowland feels. Even if we did release them, they'd have a miserable existence, and we need the energy they provide.

>>65852
*shrug* It's a good debate to have.
>>
No. 65859 ID: 406926

>>65858
>we can't change how the entire shadowland feels
While personally I'd be happy to devour pretty much the entire shadowland's ghost population in the name of increasing our power, I should point out that this is wrong. As a Hero, we are stupidly potent in social combat, and with Titan growth patterns we've going to grow more so extremely rapidly. Changing a single opinion which is deeply held by a few hundred thousand people is well within the abilities of a capable Hero.
>>
No. 65860 ID: cee89f

>>65859
I'll assume you know more about Exalted than I do and concede the point. But that's not a very practical way to handle it: even if we assume that everyone around us holds this opinion at the same level (ie, no one's will is going to be stronger than anyone elses' in regards to their guilt) and that no one succumbs to mob mentality and just attacks us for even trying... talking to hundreds (maybe thousands) of people (either one at a time or in one massive group) with a Death Hero and two Moon Heroes at our front door is not very practical, especially since we can't easily recover MP in this place for the boosts we'll probably have to do.
>>
No. 65861 ID: be7fd9

>>65860
The thing is, we don't need to persuade everyone one by one. If the charismatic and respected Lady of the shadowlands pardons these dudes because she read their minds (with powers) and found them innocent, then it all rests on how solid a reputation we build with our subjects.

Seeing as how Kaan has been an impersonal manager, at best, there's a lot of room for us to swoop in and be a beloved leader and get the ghostly population to trust us.

So yeah, if these dudes are innocent? There's totally a path where they can lead fulfilling lives (or as fulfilling or alive as a ghost gets, anyways).
>>
No. 65866 ID: a28731

>>65860
The moon exaltation can't. The devas should have no such issue and their power can be converted into moon power by keirosa.
Not to mention we get full MP every time we nom someone
>>
No. 65870 ID: cee89f

>>65861
A lady who hasn't even been there a full day and will most likely be leaving by sunrise? We can't build a trusted relationship with an entire population in a night.

Sure, if the DS keeps this night going for weeks we might be able, but we have no way of knowing if he will - or even CAN - keep the Shadowland under night for that long.

>>65866
...uh... I might've missed something, but why wouldn't they have problems? Judging from how Kairosa handled the 6/6/6 distribution (i just caught that >.>) Titan Power is the same thing as Moon Power, but in different devas. We're still in a shadowland, and Kairosa said MP comes from pulling excess energy out of our enviornment.

It's not like they're Death Heroes, they can't get power from death essence. I could see Kairosa gaining TW and maaaaaybe regaining TP (feeding deva and all) but while Wordblood has been shown to be incredibly useful (to the degree that even Kairosa wants to dump power into him as opposed to herself) we have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that Wordblood can generate his own power.
>>
No. 65872 ID: be7fd9

>will most likely be leaving by sunrise?
Wut.

I have no idea why we'd want to do that, unless it's running for our lives from TDS or TUS, or enslaved by the lunars or something. Running our own little mini shadow kingdom while we learn in grow is the cushiest option available, if we can hold onto it.
>>
No. 65873 ID: cee89f

>>65872
There was some talk earlier that we should tell Luna what we are, and someone raised the point that we should leave the Shadowland first in case being part of the underworld gives DS some power to hear us pray. And even if he can't, telling Luna and then going with the Lunars gives us some protection/security in a world that - quite frankly - has MUCH more power than we do at the moment.

Moreover, 1) I'm not sure we can stay here. The Lunars don't seem keen on the idea, and we know that they may very well choose to kidnap us when the sun rises.

2) Akatrina may very well spend now until sunrise trying to convince us that either staying here or going to TDS is a good idea.

3) Wasn't our plan to become a force for GOOD in the world so the gods wouldn't destroy us the second they knew what we are?... Granted, we know it's a good thing to stay here and help these ghosts, but does the celestial bureaucracy either know or care? And if they do, it's not like we can explain how we can tell that the ghosts we pardon are innocent or guilty. From their perspective it would just look like manipulation and political manuvering on a grand scale: not exactly compelling evidence for a 'good gal'.
>>
No. 65875 ID: be7fd9

I was under the assumption the whole point of our coming social battle was to prevent both 1 and 2. We want to convince the lunars to leave us here, and we want Kat convinced we're buying into her pitch (or at least, that we might be susceptible to it), and we're being controlled or manipulated by Kaan, who she and TDS in turn have influence over. We want everyone involved to think they're in control, and in it's in their best interest to leave us here. Where we're really in control.

As for 3, that's more long term. Ruling as the behind the throne lady of the shadow land is medium term. It's a way to secure ourself, and learn and grow in relative safety and control until we're ready to head out, kick ass, and do some titanic greatness and world betterment. I mean, we have a lot of resources to work with here I'm loath to just give up and walk away from without a fight. And even if we don't stay here all the time, a shadow castle makes a pretty awesome base.
>>
No. 65879 ID: 370c40

>>65870
Wordblood can generate power by eating books. Including Titan's Will if it's a significant enough amount of knowledge, and we can upgrade that ability. Depth of Comprehension, was it called? Also we learn all the things in the books when he eats them. Really good for things like learning Sorcery! Or destroying an enemy's library if we ever make some enemies with libraries? I mean, if we intend to make a stealth soul we can probably sneak like CRAZY because as a Lunar we can steal shapes. So sneaking into places will be really easy! Eventually.
>>
No. 65881 ID: 4ede1b

Yeah, telling Luna right now when we have no Good Deeds or Power under our belt seems like a bad idea. Not because of her, but because of Sol. Right now we have followers by proxy and an older Loyal exalt in a territory that is not currently at war with anyone despite it being the Age of Strife. This is a very good place to learn and grow. It should also be within our power to turn this place into a non-shadowland at some point, which once we're more powerful would be a good start for our good deeds.

Also, the Celestial Bureaucracy doesn't matter here. These guys aren't imprisoned because of them, they're imprisoned by Kaan for being Slavers. Our ability to Pardon them comes from our ability to find out if they didn't do it and tell him. Celestial Bureaucracy would want these guys to go back into the proper cycle through Lethe, not imprisoned as ghosts in baubles.
>>
No. 65885 ID: cee89f

>>65881
No, i meant would they think we were good people because we told the ghosts that they were innocent, even though from their perspective we can't prove that?

>>65879
... I'd honestly forgotten about the book eating. =/

>>65875
Can we really do both, though? The Lunar's goal seems to be to get us out of the shadowland entirely.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: we need a way for Peregrin and Saulanna to communicate two-way for the relay of information and orders before we leave. Wordblood is gonna be one useful little guy =3
>>
No. 65887 ID: be7fd9

>Can we really do both, though? The Lunar's goal seems to be to get us out of the shadowland entirely.
Possibly. It certainly won't be easy. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.

The trickiest bit will be we're selling different stories to the different sides. That means we can't let them compare notes (not too hard, since they hate each other, but one could still say the wrong thing in front of the other). It also makes talking to both at the same time pretty difficult. We have to be careful with what we say, or arrange things in advance so each side thinks they're in on the truth and they're overhearing us lie to the other. (...unless wordblood can outright perception-hack the communication so each side literally hears us saying something different).

And yes, selling the lunars will be the more challenging or the two plays. Kat will like the idea of us being tempted, and corruptible under Kaan's thumb. I'm not sure what angle we have to play yet to make the lunars like leaving us behind. (Although, we certainly have plenty of time to brainstorm an argument).
>>
No. 65891 ID: 4ede1b

The trick here is making the Lunars think we're not being manipulated or at risk. To do that, we really just need to convince them that we're not under Peregrin's thumb and that he can be trusted. If Peregrin can convince Akatrina that we are under his thumb, I suspect the two of them could probably come up with some sort of act to make it look like they don't get along, that we can stand up to him, and Saulanna+Peregrin can stand up to her.
>>
No. 65903 ID: a28731

>>65870
Wordblood is not in the shadowland though, he is inside saulanna's titan world.
>>
No. 65904 ID: 695191

>>65887
>selling different stories
That's one reason I want to get Peregrin into our internal world asap, where we can all take time and hammer out the best cover stories for all parties involved before getting caught up in our own evasions later.
>>
No. 65905 ID: cee89f

>>65903
Semantics. Kairosa explained that she gets 'free' TW from the same energy that we get our MP from. Our inner world isn't big enough to draw energy from - maybe later, when we have a more fleshed out inner world, but not right now.

Also, Kairosa can stop time. If we could gain TP, MP or TW from our inner world alone, we wouldn't be having any resource problems at all.
>>
No. 65997 ID: a28731

>>/quest/484658
>>/quest/484678

Seriously?

A career soldier trying to prove himself to a loved one who turned into hunting down escaped slaves KNOWING that they were going to the soul steel forges but made excuses to self because he personally only returned them to intermediaries in the supply chain... And then continued to do so after death...

That guy you sympathize with while condemning the the person who had such a horrible childhood he grew up believing "that's just how the world works"?
>>
No. 66002 ID: 1da170

Re: mitigating the worst memories of the souls we consume.

Why would that be desireable? Saulanna is consuming everything that they were, everything that they are.

She should remember their tales truly, the ill deeds and the good, and judge them accordingly. The rest is silence.

(Even if it's not good for the floor.)
>>
No. 66005 ID: f2c20c

>>65997
You're ignoring that the bounty hunter hunted down criminals. He was driven partially by necessity to go after escaped slaves as well, since criminals didn't pay well enough for him to pay his bills. His real sin was going too far with it due to his family issues- this is just a guess, but I figure he felt he had to prove he could live on his own just by being a bounty hunter. He could have also relocated to get a less dirty job, but didn't; we don't know why that is. Also, don't turn denial into an evil act. It is merely a sign of weakness.

ALSO, I'd like to point out here that Peregrin said they were both slavers. Here we have a bounty hunter and a slaver, not two slavers. This means Peregrin doesn't know the bounty hunter's true crimes.
>>
No. 66007 ID: bf54a8

>>66005
he could have just meant they were both heavily involved with slavery.
>>
No. 66008 ID: 370c40

>>66005
Catching escaped slaves is still bad enough that I don't think we can let the guy free unless we decide to spend way too much time on him, especially since he kept doing it after his death. And Peregrin outright said he didn't have direct evidence himself, I don't think that can really be held against him.
>>
No. 66009 ID: 521153

Catching slaves for a slaver isn't much better than being a slaver. So he caught criminals too, so what? That doesn't change the fact that he was working for slavers and supporting the industry with his actions, at least some of the time.
>>
No. 66010 ID: e29d20

Cross-posting this from the main quest thread, because I'm not kidding when I said me bringing it up at first was completely ignored.

>I know that this isn't a popular idea, by virtue of being completely ignored the last time it came up, but is it not at least worth considering if we can preserve some core part of their consciousnesses for some future use? I mean, the way Wordblood did it was to separate the memories and other such things away from the Titan's Will and then discard the "detritus" of what was left; but is it possible to preserve that like removing the fluff from a teddy bear or tanning a hide?

>The way we did it back then was born of necessity, we had not the time nor the expertise to remove the Titan's Will without obliterating the spirit and we also had a pressing need for the Titan's Will then and there; here we have the opposite situation: we have all the time we need, a being literally created to do this, and we don't have a dire need for every portion of Titan's Will we can get our hands on right now. At least not above and beyond the abstract goal of self-improvement.

>Also, this would give us a new tool in our toolbox; we wouldn't have to obliterate a spirit to get Titan's Will from it, we could have really interesting ingredients for creating artifacts, we'd have something that we could grow a deva around so that we wouldn't have to rip our soul apart -again- to create a Lordly deva, or even just something to build a unique commoner deva around even if just for practice in doing so.
>>
No. 66012 ID: bf54a8

you can't have your cake and eat it too.

and didn't you see the part where wordblood explained how human souls are HORRIBLE at being devas. like "yeah they CAN do it. but... why would you handicap yourself so badly?" horrible.
>>
No. 66013 ID: 4ede1b

>>66012
What he said. Also, these guys are a very poor choice to make a part of us. Remember, even our Akuma would influence us.
>>
No. 66015 ID: be7fd9

Hey look, I'm pretty much Mister Moral Debate, and I don't see a moral debate here!

Our perspective was: if there guys are guilty of the crimes they were accused of, then we could sentence them to being eaten. Since Peregrin answers to us, we're effectively the Lady of this realm. We rule over the population of ghosts they committed crimes against. It is within our power, and our responsibility, to met out justice as we see appropriate.

The moral quandary would have come had they not been guilty. Then we would be making the difficult choice to consume them for our own benefit.

But they are guilty. Yes, there are mitigating factors, but there always are. People are people- they're complicated, and often have reasons for even the bad things they've done. That doesn't make them beyond punishment, though.
>>
No. 66016 ID: e29d20

>>66012
>>66013
Notice that I said "grow a deva around", not "turn the human soul into a deva"; kind of like how an acorn grows into a tree.
>>
No. 66018 ID: bf54a8

still, having the core idea of a deva be a slaver is not a good idea, at all.
>>
No. 66019 ID: 370c40

>>66016
If we want to keep ghosts inside us we can do it without making them a core part of our selves. We can even keep LIVING humans inside us if we want, later, once we have a more developed internal world. But making a person into a core part of the being we are turning into seems like a bad idea even if the person we were using wasn't a criminal.

If you want we can have a whole bunch of ghosts live in us later okay just they are not very good at being devas
>>
No. 66021 ID: e29d20

>>66018
That's entirely up to debate; Common devas, Devas of the First Circle to use canon terminology, are made with a purpose in mind, which can be virtually anything from being shock troops (Erymanthoi), to prostitutes (Neomah), to living game pieces (Baidak), to librarians (Naneke), to musicians (Angyalka). So, if one were to want to create a species of first circle devas that existed to hunt things down and bring them back alive, then using the remnants of these guy's souls as a starting point to build the prototypes would be a great idea.

>>66019
First off, please don't condescend to me like that, having a bunch of ghosts hanging around wasn't my point in the slightest: my point, to put this as bluntly as possible so I can't be misinterpreted, is to point out the part of the souls we were tearing apart for Titan's Will that we were throwing away can still be a viable resource by itself if we bothered to keep it around.
>>
No. 66022 ID: 370c40

>>66021
We are ages away from making Noble devas. I'm not even sure if we are capable of making commoner devas at this point. And even if we are, ghosts would serve pretty well for all the things you named except living game pieces so I'm not sure why we need to.
>>
No. 66024 ID: e29d20
File 135801197595.jpg - (152.64KB , 582x800 , The_End_of_All_Wisdom_by_PaleLonginus.jpg )
66024

>>66022
Well, for one thing, if Jukashi is using anything resembling the canon game in this regard, Arcanoi, ghost charms, are the weakest in the setting BAR NONE, falling square under the header of "you're lucky to have anything at all."

Next, it's not a stretch to assume that if we can make a third circle (Lordly) deva we can make a first circle (Common). Commoners aren't just less powerful, but also significantly less complex; it's the difference between quantum mechanics and a hammer.

If your concern is that we can't do it because Saulanna, Wordblood, and Kiarosa are Lordly/Third Circles, there is at least one case a Third Circle Demon creating First Circle Demons.

< This guy: Orabilis, The End of All Wisdom.

Those spheres that are surrounding him are the First Circle Demons he created. No, he didn't order one of his Second Circle/Nobles to do it: he did it himself. His entry implies that all Third Circles can do that, but most just won't be bothered to do so because they can just have a Second Circle do it.
>>
No. 66025 ID: e29d20

>>66024
>< This guy: Orabilis, The End of All Wisdom.
Composition fail. Anyway, what I was getting at was obvious.
>>
No. 66026 ID: 4ede1b

>>66021
In normal exalted First Circle don't affect the whole too much.(The fluff actually says that theoretically enough of them can, but that's when they're offset by a full complement of Third and Second Circles at full strength which is not our situation) But then in normal Exalted, Akuma would have absolutely no affect on our personality, where-as we were told making Peregrin one would subject us to tons of bleed-back.

>So, if one were to want to create a species of first circle devas that existed to hunt things down and bring them back alive, then using the remnants of these guy's souls as a starting point to build the prototypes would be a great idea.

Actually that sounds like a horrible idea. Why would you want to use a bad example of the purpose we have in mind as a base?
>>
No. 66028 ID: be7fd9

>Next, it's not a stretch to assume that if we can make a third circle (Lordly) deva we can make a first circle (Common)
Well, except for the bit that Wordblood has pretty much flat out said we far away from doing that. Making assumptions that contradict what our main advisor is telling us does seem a bit of a stretch.

...and if and when we get around to creating new devas? I'm not sure why we'd need or want to try and strip pieces out of existing ghosts to use as the start. I mean, if what we're doing now is a kind of natural order circle of life thing (breaking souls down into their base components, and then eating them and growing the soul stuff into something new) then what's being proposed now... sounds more like necromancy. Or a ghost-lobotomy combined with Frankensteining a new deva. If anything, it's more unsettling and squickish than than the soul eating, not less.

Especially since we don't need a base or template to work off of! If you make a deva of a certain element, for a certain purpose, they will be of that element, and literally made for that purpose. We didn't need fragments of the doomed time dragon to make Kairosa, after all.
>>
No. 66029 ID: cee89f

>Tell them you've seen their lives, and ask them if they have anything to say, a memorial of sorts before they're returned to formlessness. Then spend some Power to create a tablet or somesuch and write down what they've said (you'll get the power back as a result of feeding anyway).

... I gotta say, I like this idea: a cenotaph of sorts for the people we eat.

>>66025
Considering that devas are magical beings literally made of their concepts, the weird colors might be on purpose =/

If someone has to ask what you were saying, then what you were getting at was not obvious to whoever asked and saying it was just makes you sound patronizing.

>>66022
I was under the impression this was simply because making nobles would be impractical when we only have two devas (one, when Wordblood originally said that) because they improve the skills/abilities of one deva, whereas we lacked devas that could perform absolutely critical tasks (such as a feeding deva)

Unrelated: Have these updates been getting bigger and quicker, or is it just me?
>>
No. 66030 ID: 4ede1b

>>66024
The post wasn't saying we couldn't, but that we might not be able to yet. Given that for Infernals the minimum essence for making a First Circle Demon is Four(Or was it Five. I know the Cecelyne one is Essence five, but I think the Mind-Hand expansion is four?), and Soulforce 2-3 is comparable to Essence 2, so it has some basis.

I think we probably could though given that we have Titan's Will and First Circles aren't linked directly to something higher up the way Nobles would be.(I think we can't make Nobles because our Lord's aren't strong enough to either survive splitting off that much of themselves or support them all on their lonesome yet.) I however don't think we should do to how much more focused on their purpose First Circles are and how dangerous that makes the possibility that their personality will bleed into ours.
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No. 66032 ID: f2c20c

>>66013
That makes me wonder why Saulanna is good at being a deva.
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No. 66033 ID: 370c40

>>66032
She isn't! That's why Kairosa was saying we should learn Sorcery, since apparently that would make her a lot better at it.
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No. 66035 ID: a28731

>>/quest/484760
I thought "Scavenger of ages" is her "true name" that we MUST NOT REVEAL to anyone.
And that Keirosa is a colloquial name we gave her that can be revealed.
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No. 66037 ID: a28731

>>66005
Catching escaped slaves and returning them to their "owner" IS being a slaver. We are calling him a bounty hunter because its the method in which he practiced his slaving.

Slaving is bad enough but he KNEW that the escaped slaves he is capturing are going to be used for soul steel forging. (even if he didn't know, being a slaver is a big crime in of itself; soul steel forging just dials it up to 11)

Every single criminal has an excuse; even someone committing horrendous crimes for the lulz of it has the excuse of being insane.

As far as excuses go, wanting to prove yourself able to make money on your own is about the worst possible justification one could have for being slaver who knows that the "slaves" he is catching are actually going to be brutally tortured to death so their souls could be forged into weapons. (not that being a slaver who catches slaves for traditional forms of slavery is not evil, its just that being raped, beaten, allowed no property or rights, and forced to do hard labor for no pay is horrific but not as horrific as being made into soul-steel).
And even AFTER death he continued to do so because it was convenient and he was used to doing it (so the excuse is gone by that point... not that it was ever a valid excuse).

Furthermore, the society we are now in charge of deems those crimes (soul steel forging, and to a lesser extent providing forgers with victims) to be the ultimate crimes one can perform, and lacking the POSSIBILITY of enacting a death sentence settle for eternal imprisonment in a 2x4 inch prison.

We have confirmed that both did the crime, we have confirmed that both knew that the "slaves" are going to be used for soul steel forging. All that changed is that we now know their excuses. One had a shitty childhood and the other has the worst possible excuse ever.
And for some reason every bleeding heart here has condemned the person whose childhood was so traumatic he believes "evil" is just "how the world works"... and yet every one of you is rushing to demand we "redeem" the guy who has the worst possible excuse for participating in the most heinous of crimes possible.
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No. 66040 ID: be7fd9

>>66035
...I have no idea which way that goes, actually. Do Titans / devas even have true names that bind them in the same way mortals do?

>>66037
Yeah, that's pretty much entirely how I see the situation.

>and yet every one of you is rushing to demand we "redeem" the guy who has the worst possible excuse for participating in the most heinous of crimes possible.
It's only a few people. The overwhelming majority seems fine with just eating them.
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No. 66041 ID: e29d20

>>66029
No, I meant that I was trying to point the arrow at the picture, but ended up pointing at the side of your monitor.

I was speaking of the composition of my post, not the artwork.
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No. 66043 ID: cee89f

>>66035
No, Kai said it was one of her titles (and that she would like more because they were nice)

>>66037
Because the guy with the whip actually DID commit one of the most heinous crimes possible: slaving. Moreover, he willingly, knowingly and without a qualm handed the dead off to be forged into Soulsteel. Bounty hunting isn't a clean job by any means, but it's not inherently wrong. We know that the guy captured slaves but we don't know who ELSE he might've caught, and many people understand being in denial more than 'thats how the world works'. THAT'S why.

(Personally, i like him more because it sounds like he has daddy issues, so i can empathize. Fuck you, dad. FUCK. YOU.)

I agree that we don't try and 'redeem' the guy, mind - as far as we know he has no regrets besides proving himself, he's getting omnomnomed. But we should still hear them say their last words.
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No. 66044 ID: 695191

>>66010
I think the problem here is that a spirit isn't much of anything but a consciousness, trying to take any piece out of it would be like cutting out part of a living beings brain. Might be wrong, but I doubt it would be by much.

Another thought is that Kairosa might be able to develop the ability to rewind the consumption of previous a soul by extending titans will to reform it. That way we can have our cake and eat it too, so to speak.

...And if we later have a healing deva of rebirth perhaps we can also bring ghosts back into living body. Who knows, when to the point of generating titans will automatically and quickly we might simply be able to recreate any and all living or dead people we had consumed.
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No. 66046 ID: a28731

>>66043
>Bounty hunting isn't a clean job by any means, but it's not inherently wrong.
Nobody said it is...
The guy was a soldier, then a bounty hunter (hunting criminals), then a slaver (a "bounty hunter" that now hunts down slaves instead of criminals) and he KNEW the "slaves" are going to the soul steel forges.
We aren't condemning his bounty hunting or soldiering. This defense is like saying "I am only a waiter" when someone who is a waiter goes and becomes a serial killer. The fact he might be referred to as "waiter dude" does not mean his waitering is being condemned, but the actual crimes.

>We know that the guy captured slaves but we don't know who ELSE he might've caught
Who cares what legitimate non criminal acts he committed before he turned to evil?
See above explanation about why "waiter dude" is still condemned for being a mass murderer.
Heck, we called the other guy "whip dude". This doesn't mean we think whips are evil... its the actual crime (participating in the soul-steel trade willingly and knowingly) that we condemn for

>>66040
>It's only a few people. The overwhelming majority seems fine with just eating them.
Yes :)
But I meant that those who ARE calling for "redeeming" only want to redeem "bounty hunter dude" and condemn "whip dude".
If anything "whip dude" is more redeemable since he has (through his experiences) been led to believe this is the way of the world (just show him otherwise).

Of course, I am actually for nomming the heck out of both of them.
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No. 66047 ID: cee89f

>>66046
Reading Kairosa's story again to be sure, but i was under the impression he was a bounty hunter who occasionally worked for slavers, not a slaver himself.

In addition to what I've already said, the fact that he was in denial about selling souls to oblivion hints that if he ever breaks out of that denial, he'll regret it immensely. This character is also being juxtaposed by the worst that humanity has to offer, and thus looks sympathetic in comparison.

If he were on his own, there'd be a lot more omnomnoming to be had =p

>Who cares what legitimate non criminal acts he committed before he turned to evil?

I don't see any indication he 'turned to evil', just that he worked for an evil dude. Boba Fett may have had a harsh employer but you don't blaim him for force-choking incompetent stormtrooper #421.

>If anything "whip dude" is more redeemable since he has (through his experiences) been led to believe this is the way of the world (just show him otherwise).
Ok, no. I call bullcrap. A guy who did immoral work out of economic necessity is much more redeemable than a guy who enslaved and tortured because he decided that was how the world worked.

Seriously, go back over Kairosa's story. From the sound of it, he turned into a slaver for no good reason. So the guy gets attacked young. Sure, that'll turn you harsh, most likely with no chance of recovery, but instead of learning to fight he decides to make others miserable?

Maybe if he was filled with regret you'd have a point, but we get no indication of that.
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No. 66049 ID: a07204

>>66047
That's sort of how people who grow up in those sort of enviroments. If all you know is pain, then chances are you are going to show pain to others. It's what they know, what they grew up with, and what works. Same reason why people tend to get 'stuck in their ways' as they get older.

As for the 'bounty hunter' his reasons for doing bounty hunting were to 'prove himself' and 'get more money than he did before'. These weren't just acts, these were acts of greed, pride and envy. Just because he went into his own little world doesn't mean he is redeemable. In fact, I see that as even worse. He was selfish to the point that he'd rather not think of the fates of those he condemns instead of even acknowledging it. Besides, if he worked hard, he could have found other, cleaner ways to make more money and gain respect. This was simply the path of least resistance and he not only took it, but then denies that he did anything wrong.

Really, if we WERE going to pick a personality for a diva, whip man WOULD be better. Yes, he did what he did without batting an eye lash, but he was honest to his view points and himself. Makes him easy to trust and a honest face..as ugly that face may be. Besides, changing a person's view point is much easier than changing their basic personality. Bounty Hunter? He lies to himself, is selfish, greedy, rather wishy washy and more than happy to sacrifice others for more money. Add that to his whole 'has something to prove' and you have someone you just can't trust.
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No. 66051 ID: cee89f

>>66049
Just to be clear: Redeeming someone isn't practical right now, and if it was, I'd advocate we try and redeem BOTH. I just like this debate.

>That's sort of how people who grow up in those sort of enviroments. If all you know is pain, then chances are you are going to show pain to others. It's what they know, what they grew up with, and what works.

That doesn't change that the man is morally bankrupt. Boba here had to deny to himself that the people were being sold to Oblivion (from the sound of it) so he at least knew it was wrong and cared enough to lie to himself to survive. He'd go right into a one-way ticket to hell anyway, but he has an ounce of moral fiber.

Whip, on the other hand? I'd give him a front row seat. He took PRIDE in the work of capturing exotic, expensive slaves - he had to, or he wouldn't have only gone for things both difficult and expensive - and after death he held no qualms about selling them to Oblivion for some of the worst tortures imaginable, followed by serving an army literally bent on ending all of existence. You don't take pride in something you do just to survive.

>Same reason why people tend to get 'stuck in their ways' as they get older.

That is a completely different phenomenon that happens to EVERYBODY, cruel/evil or not.

>As for the 'bounty hunter' his reasons for doing bounty hunting were to 'prove himself' and 'get more money than he did before'. These weren't just acts, these were acts of greed, pride and envy. Just because he went into his own little world doesn't mean he is redeemable.

1) No it doesn't, but it's a better indicator than meeting a few spirits and deciding that the way of the world is to capture, enslave and brutalize your fellow human beings.

2) Going into 'your own little world' hints that he had qualms about what he was doing, or would have if he hadn't done so. I put more faith in the guy who has doubts about what he's doing than a guy who believes he has done absolutely nothing wrong WITHOUT fooling himself one whit.

>In fact, I see that as even worse. He was selfish to the point that he'd rather not think of the fates of those he condemns instead of even acknowledging it. Besides, if he worked hard, he could have found other, cleaner ways to make more money and gain respect. This was simply the path of least resistance and he not only took it, but then denies that he did anything wrong.

I'd like to note that this can be applied to both of them and thus is invalid when asking which would be better to redeem.

>Really, if we WERE going to pick a personality for a diva, whip man WOULD be better. Yes, he did what he did without batting an eye lash, but he was honest to his view points and himself. Makes him easy to trust and a honest face..as ugly that face may be. Besides, changing a person's view point is much easier than changing their basic personality. Bounty Hunter? He lies to himself, is selfish, greedy, rather wishy washy and more than happy to sacrifice others for more money. Add that to his whole 'has something to prove' and you have someone you just can't trust.

1) Neither of these two would be good devas.

2) The slaver's got a little more than 'a point of view' going on here. The guy is a harsh, cruel son of a bitch through and through (I find it hilarious we're condemning them entirely on a brief synopsis of their lives, even guessing at their personalities as if they were absolute truths)

3) You keep applying personality traits to the Bounty Hunter that can also be applied to the slaver, but drawing two different conclusions from the same details.

>He lies to himself, is selfish, greedy, rather wishy washy and more than happy to sacrifice others for more money.

With the exception of wishy-washy (which we don't even get a hint at - we just know he's had two careers and fell down the slippery slope) every single one of those can be applied to slaver-guy too.
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No. 66052 ID: f2c20c

>>66046
You think someone who is directly involved in evil acts fully knowing it's evil and does it only for the money and power is MORE redeemable than someone who indirectly supports evil acts, is in denial about it, and does it because he has something to prove?
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No. 66055 ID: 1da170

Yeah, Bounty Hunter Guy doesn't get a pass for knowingly sending people off to be soulforged just because he did so indirectly, or because he convinced himself he wasn't a terrible person.

Likewise, Whip Guy doesn't get a pass for knowingly sending people off to be soulforged because that's what he knew, or because he convinced himself that he's as terrible a person as everyone else.

I don't want to call either irredeemable per se, but reforming either is not vaguely worth our time. OM NOM NOM.
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No. 66057 ID: 1da170

>>66029
Well, depending on how many people we wind up eating in this fashion, a tablet could become a cenotaph could become a wall could become a big fuckin' wall, filled with a billion answers to one question: "looking back on all your life, what do you have to say for yourself?"

If we are, in fact, a Deva of Humanity in a knowledge-focused Titan, it behooves us to preserve the knowledge and legacy of humans.
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No. 66058 ID: cee89f

>>66055
I was thinking 'highly impractical given our current resources (or lack thereof) and need to quickly grow'
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No. 66059 ID: 3bad4c

>>If the Hero's Soul is acting like a deva, then its influence is persistent, not just introduced at the moment of creation.

Oh, ok. I see no problem with persistent.

Is there going to be a stage where you can say (for example) that Wordblood has soul force 4, Saulanna has soul force 4, Kariosa has soul force 3 and the hero shard has soul force 2?

Or is it going acting more like an artefact?
Saulanna SF (4+2)=6
Wordblood SF 4
Kariosa SF 3
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No. 66062 ID: f2c20c

>>66055
I keep seeing people say that he "knowingly" sent them off to the soulforges. That is not how denial works! He's not telling himself he's not a terrible person for doing it, he's telling himself he's not really doing it.
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No. 66064 ID: 5d121c

I think this entire discussion is meaningless. One type of person can't deserve redemption more than other types of people do. That's not how redemption works. This is just petty vengefulness after the damage has already been done for the sake of soothing our own conscience. Two wrongs don't make a right. If we want to do the "right" thing, and see ghosts in general as beings worthy of life, we should try to redeem them all no matter their circumstances.

But really, I still hold that ghosts should not exist. They are a symptom, a cause, part of the snowball effect leading to the eventual decay of the all existence into nothingness.
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No. 66067 ID: 521153

>>66064
No that's pretty much exactly how redemption works. Villains being "beyond redemption" is, ya know, a common thing. It's usually a case of them not WANTING to be redeemed, or their being fundamentally, irrevocably, flawed or damaged in some way that makes them "evil". Your approach to redemption is frighteningly sociopathic.

Also, all the ghosts in the world couldn't outweigh the effects a fully realized Titan Saulanna will have on creation so, you know, if eventual nonexistence is a thing you don't view as pleasant.... Well, I'm saying we've got options.
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No. 66068 ID: bf54a8

once you become a ghost you are as set in your was as you can possibly get. redeeming someone after death is a million times harder then if they are still alive.
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No. 66069 ID: 4ede1b

>That doesn't change that the man is morally bankrupt. Boba here had to deny to himself that the people were being sold to Oblivion (from the sound of it) so he at least knew it was wrong and cared enough to lie to himself to survive. He'd go right into a one-way ticket to hell anyway, but he has an ounce of moral fiber.

Given that he'd previously had other jobs, and considered bounty hunter an upgrade, I wouldn't say he was doing it to survive. Seems more likely he switched jobs to prove himself, and that is what required him to capture slaves. Sounds very much like he was doing it for his ego, which is what really makes this guy scum. Denial makes it worse, because it shows he knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

>Whip, on the other hand? I'd give him a front row seat. He took PRIDE in the work of capturing exotic, expensive slaves - he had to, or he wouldn't have only gone for things both difficult and expensive - and after death he held no qualms about selling them to Oblivion for some of the worst tortures imaginable, followed by serving an army literally bent on ending all of existence. You don't take pride in something you do just to survive.

It never says he took pride in it, it says he went after the big bucks. What it does say is an encounter with supernaturals when he was young
>probably taught him what lengths mortals had to go to to prosper
When you're dealing with things that can parry nukes and punch through castle walls, the difference between being poor and wealthy may be small but it can still be the difference between death and life. This isn't the real world where everyone is on fairly equal footing. You've got superhumans cursed with irregular insanity running around with gods backing them up on the fact that they are default leaders and commanders of all other Humans.

On a personal level, I have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the guy born into such a world that feels they have to be a horrible person to survive compared to the guy who doesn't think that but does it anyway because he wants to stroke his own ego by proving himself to someone. I'm not saying we should redeem either, but the idea that the Bounty Hunter is somehow less repulsive seems ridiculous to me.

>With the exception of wishy-washy (which we don't even get a hint at - we just know he's had two careers and fell down the slippery slope) every single one of those can be applied to slaver-guy too.

Lying to himself isn't something that can be applied to the Slaver. If he grew up in an area with some strong supernaturals who ruled the area and were cruel and sadistic pricks? He was pretty much spot-on. Even if it was just a once off encounter, that still just means he was wrong about how necessary it was. Being wrong is not the same as lying.

>>66067
Given that one of the Deathlord's plan for destroying creation was getting people to worship their ancestors so Creation slowly sent all it's essence into the Underworld? I'd say all the Ghosts in the World can have an affect equal to a Titan, even if it's something of a long-shot.

>>66062
Kairosa said
>I think he knew it, he was just sort of in denial.
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No. 66070 ID: 370c40

>>66069
Uh. That Deathlord's plan was sort of formed when there were, you know, no healthy Titans outside Malfeas actually doing anything. When none of the Titans are actually able to do anything except the dead ones, the dead ones are going to be winning. And then they still lost, apparently! Not entirely clear what the Dragon's Shadow actually did to the Underworld but he did something? And apparently the Neverborn aren't doing as much as they used to.

>>66068
No, Exalted can DEFINITELY get more set in their ways than ghosts. Ghosts are just more stubborn than mortals. So, with charms/necromancy/sorcery, not that stubborn.
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No. 66071 ID: 4ede1b

>>66070
The dead Titans weren't really the ones doing anything. They empowered some dudes and that's about it. Them coming so close to winning has a lot more to do with just how dysfunctional the heroes in Creation were. Also, The Ebon Dragon is responsible for giving them most of those dudes to empower.

Anyway, my poorly communicated point was that ghosts can be harmful to Creation. I thought I also included something about Titans existing is sort of how creation was planned to work, where-as the Underworld was more a disruption of that balance feeding into Oblivion, but for some reason I forgot that part. What the Underworld is now or will be we don't really know, but I don't think ancestor worship sending Creation's Essence to TDS's domain is that big a step-up.
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No. 66072 ID: 5d121c

>>66067
"Beying beyond redemption" and "evil" are cartoonish concepts that don't really belong into a discussion like this. They exist to put a measure of black and white into stories so that they are light and enjoyable.

Your thinking me sociopathic for believing everyone should have a chance at being redeemed as a holy principle instead of believing it's OK to judge entire lives on a short synopsis for our own sake is quite ironic, but I do get the feeling you were just saying that to insult me for, again, your own sake.
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No. 66073 ID: 521153

>>66072
I wasn't insulting you. Thinking that everyone deserves an equal chance at redemption is childish. Even putting aside the fact that one man's redemption is another man's perversion, as yes there are in fact differing perspectives of equal validity in the world, different individuals are going to have differing degrees of "redeemability".

If your goal is to bring everyone to the same degree of redemption, the efforts put into different people are going to vary drastically. And that obviously isn't fair; why should worse people deserve more help? If your goal is to offer an equal chance to everyone, there are those who will obviously never achieve redemption, their cost in effort was more than whatever bound you arbitrarily placed on effort spent. This is a case where discrimination serves the common good, it minimizes wasted effort and possibly more importantly, hollow effort.

Again, I meant no insult, it was just description.
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No. 66075 ID: cee89f

>Given that he'd previously had other jobs, and considered bounty hunter an upgrade, I wouldn't say he was doing it to survive. Seems more likely he switched jobs to prove himself, and that is what required him to capture slaves. Sounds very much like he was doing it for his ego, which is what really makes this guy scum. Denial makes it worse, because it shows he knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

1) KAIROSA said bounty hunter was an upgrade, and even then that refers to becoming a bounty hunter - a minute ago you were arguing that he went from Bounty hunter to slaver. By that logic (assuming 'slaver' means he was working for slavers as a bounty hunter) he considered it a downgrade, since Kai added that he was 'dragged down' to that position. She also said "real criminals didn't pay the bills", which tells me he went after slaves because he needed the money.

2) Being in denial means that he was denying he was doing the deed - not the deed itself was wrong. Something like: "Well, I don't know for sure they're selling these slaves to oblivion." He knows that selling souls to oblivion is wrong, he's just denying that that's what he's doing.

3) We're talking about which one is MORE redeemable - and a guy who does crimes like this for pride (remember, whip went after big game) is much less redeemable than a guy who doesn't see the reality of his own crimes.

>It never says he took pride in it, it says he went after the big bucks.

You don't go after big game just for the money - you go because you take some pride in your work. Especially in light of the fact that he apparently was able to afford "really nice" funeral services. The guy wasn't 'going to what lengths he had to to survive', he just wanted money and power.

>What it does say is an encounter with supernaturals when he was young
>>probably taught him what lengths mortals had to go to to prosper

See the last sentence of the paragraph above.

>When you're dealing with things that can parry nukes and punch through castle walls, the difference between being poor and wealthy may be small but it can still be the difference between death and life.

We know he had multiple encounters with the supernatural - we don't know that he met high-level exalted.

>This isn't the real world where everyone is on fairly equal footing. You've got superhumans cursed with irregular insanity running around with gods backing them up on the fact that they are default leaders and commanders of all other Humans.

That doesn't really matter when you compare these two - they're BOTH in that kind of world.

>On a personal level, I have a hell of a lot more sympathy for the guy born into such a world that feels they have to be a horrible person to survive compared to the guy who doesn't think that but does it anyway because he wants to stroke his own ego by proving himself to someone.

I have more sympathy for the bounty hunter who fell on the slippery slope (which is what it sounds like) than the guy who gift-wrapped his soul to whatever damns people in Exalted. I mean, short of joining up with the Yozis/Neverborn, how much worse could he get?

>I'm not saying we should redeem either,

Me neither - practicality and all.

>but the idea that the Bounty Hunter is somehow less repulsive seems ridiculous to me.

And I find it ridiculous that the guy who doesn't even have morals is more redeemable than... well, anybody else, really. Especially when his beliefs are rooted as deeply as they're implied to be here.

>Lying to himself isn't something that can be applied to the Slaver. If he grew up in an area with some strong supernaturals who ruled the area and were cruel and sadistic pricks? He was pretty much spot-on. Even if it was just a once off encounter, that still just means he was wrong about how necessary it was.

I'm having trouble seeing the train of logic from "supernaturals are pricks" to "I should be selling souls to oblivion". Sure, it would make him harsh, but you don't have to be a slaver to be a harsh person. He just could've worked in a tea shop and told all of his customers to fuck off.

Heck, we don't even have any indication of how powerful those things were. I got the impression they were ghosts, maybe a minor god.

>Being wrong is not the same as lying.

You do know how denial works, right? =/ It's just like being wrong - you have a belief that's incorrect. The difference is that your belief is easier to shake. Lying and being wrong are two different things - except when you're lying to yourself. Then it might as well be the same.

>>66064
I dunno, i think it's a fun way to pass the time until the next update.

Also, this is only true for people who WANT to be redeemed, and realize that they have done wrong. If a person doesn't fulfill both, then you can't fix 'em.
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No. 66076 ID: f2c20c

>>66069
Yes, he was in denial about them getting sent to the soulforges. Not that he was a bad person for doing it. You're reading the context wrong.

Also, "having something to prove" is not about pumping up your ego, it's about looking better in someone else's eyes. It's based on trying to make someone else proud of you, not based on you own pride. It's living up to someone else's expectations, not chasing your own selfish goals. Familial pressure is a powerful force. If your dad was a famous celebrity or something, would you just sit on the couch and play video games all day, rather than going after that same sort of fame?
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No. 66077 ID: 4ede1b

>Also, "having something to prove" is not about pumping up your ego, it's about looking better in someone else's eyes. It's based on trying to make someone else proud of you, not based on you own pride. It's living up to someone else's expectations, not chasing your own selfish goals. Familial pressure is a powerful force. If your dad was a famous celebrity or something, would you just sit on the couch and play video games all day, rather than going after that same sort of fame?

I very much disagree with this. If you're damning other people when you believe what you're doing is wrong because you're trying to prove yourself, that is very much an issue of pride. You're putting how you're seen above what you think is right. That's very clearly pride.

>>66075
>a minute ago you were arguing that he went from Bounty hunter to slaver.
I'm not the guy who said that.
>She also said "real criminals didn't pay the bills", which tells me he went after slaves because he needed the money.
But being a city guard and in the military did, otherwise he would've starved before becoming a bounty hunter. After he became a bounty hunter he had to, but "upgraded" is not forced to because previous work that sustained you is no longer available. He had other options which he eschewed because he wanted to prove himself.

> Being in denial means that he was denying he was doing the deed - not the deed itself was wrong. Something like: "Well, I don't know for sure they're selling these slaves to oblivion." He knows that selling souls to oblivion is wrong, he's just denying that that's what he's doing.
Kairosa said he knew, he was just kinda in denial about it. You're focusing on an interpretation of the latter half of the statement when the first part tells us that he knew.

>You don't go after big game just for the money - you go because you take some pride in your work. Especially in light of the fact that he apparently was able to afford "really nice" funeral services. The guy wasn't 'going to what lengths he had to to survive', he just wanted money and power.
It's never described as big game.It specifically says he went after big bucks, which sounds a lot more like doing it for the money. There's not a statement that he enjoyed his work. There's no statement that he felt pride about what he did. It says he thought that's what a mortal has to do to prosper and that he was content with that. You're reading a lot more into this guy then what's there. Kairosa does say though
>This guy with the whip, this guy was about raw selfish survival, pretty clear.
So yea, this guy did what he thought he had to in order to survive.

>We know he had multiple encounters with the supernatural - we don't know that he met high-level exalted.
These are not things restricted to High-Level Exalts. Exalted in general are capable of very drastic things very quickly. Fae for a mortal are worse in a lot of ways.

>That doesn't really matter when you compare these two - they're BOTH in that kind of world.
Except one had early experiences that made him think it was necessary, where-as the other knew he had other options.

>I have more sympathy for the bounty hunter who fell on the slippery slope (which is what it sounds like) than the guy who gift-wrapped his soul to whatever damns people in Exalted. I mean, short of joining up with the Yozis/Neverborn, how much worse could he get?
That's a rather loaded way to compare him. If you want to say the bounty hunter fell on a slippery slope, then the slaver didn't know there was anything other then the pit he was in.

>I'm having trouble seeing the train of logic from "supernaturals are pricks" to "I should be selling souls to oblivion". Sure, it would make him harsh, but you don't have to be a slaver to be a harsh person. He just could've worked in a tea shop and told all of his customers to fuck off.
If you're a ghost in the underworld, the leap comes from the fact that you're under a Death Lord's domain whether you want to be or not so you're better off the slaver then soul-steel. Before that, dealing with the supernatural requires some degree of money, influence, and power.

>Heck, we don't even have any indication of how powerful those things were. I got the impression they were ghosts, maybe a minor god.
Funnily enough, mortals have even less of a chance against those then they do against Exalts. Ghosts, Demons, and Gods are pretty much invulnerable against mortals due to not having a material form unless they want one, where-as a fresh Exalt will still fall to large enough army of mortals simply due to attrition. The picture of both these guys looks more like it's in the west to me(could be wrong, but this bit of speculation doesn't actually change anything), and given that it's before the return of the Solars, that means it's likely Gods(Most likely Storm Goddesses), Lunars, Dragon-Blooded, Fae, or Ghosts.

>Also, this is only true for people who WANT to be redeemed, and realize that they have done wrong. If a person doesn't fulfill both, then you can't fix 'em
If you can convince someone they've done wrong, they may well want to redeem themselves. Whether it's worth or they deserve the effort being an entirely different matter.
>>
No. 66078 ID: cee89f

>After he became a bounty hunter he had to, but "upgraded" is not forced to because previous work that sustained you is no longer available. He had other options which he eschewed because he wanted to prove himself.

If the guy went to bounty hunting and realized it didn't pay the bills, then why didn't he go back to the military? The answer you're providing is 'he didn't want to' which frankly we have no evidence for. A person with a lick of sense would go back to a job that paid the bills if he suddenly realized his new job didn't do it. So no, he DIDN'T have other options, or he would've taken them.

>Kairosa said he knew, he was just kinda in denial about it. You're focusing on an interpretation of the latter half of the statement when the first part tells us that he knew.

"He knew but was in denial" is how I'm interpreting it. And you're misinterpreting 'in denial' entirely.

>It's never described as big game.It specifically says he went after big bucks, which sounds a lot more like doing it for the money. There's not a statement that he enjoyed his work. There's no statement that he felt pride about what he did. It says he thought that's what a mortal has to do to prosper and that he was content with that.

"Big bucks". Expensive. Which means high profile. It's not that hard to think through, or that weak of a conclusion to draw.

>You're reading a lot more into this guy then what's there.

And you're not?

>Kairosa does say though
>>This guy with the whip, this guy was about raw selfish survival, pretty clear.
>So yea, this guy did what he thought he had to in order to survive.

You don't go and make yourself absurdly rich and set aside a lot of it for a nice funeral ceremony purely for the sake of survival.

>These are not things restricted to High-Level Exalts. Exalted in general are capable of very drastic things very quickly. Fae for a mortal are worse in a lot of ways.

My point still stands. We don't know how powerful these supernatural things were - you're assuming they were Fae-level or Exalt-level.

>Except one had early experiences that made him think it was necessary, where-as the other knew he had other options.

Which means the guy who knows there are other options (though as stated above i'm not convinced he did) may very well actually WANT another option, as opposed to the guy who is convinced being evil is the only way to survive.

>That's a rather loaded way to compare him.

Fair enough.

>If you want to say the bounty hunter fell on a slippery slope, then the slaver didn't know there was anything other then the pit he was in.

Except you don't START in that pit - you still need to crawl into it. Supernatural beings or not, he still decided to do so.

>If you're a ghost in the underworld, the leap comes from the fact that you're under a Death Lord's domain whether you want to be or not so you're better off the slaver then soul-steel.

Okay. Now tell me how that is different for the bounty hunter's situation.

(also, looking at it again, Kairosa says he was 'well content' which means he was happy to pawn them - he got pleasure from it)

>Before that, dealing with the supernatural requires some degree of money, influence, and power.

And if he actually did care about his survival, he would pour all of it into defenses against the supernatural. Not only was he murdered (from the sound of it, by a mortal, so his defenses couldn't have been all THAT great) According to Kairosa, he spent a lot on a lavish funeral ceremony.

I see no reason to pour money into a funeral ceremony that's nice enough to warrant mentioning how nice it is when your main concern is staying alive and you don't know that you're going to stick around as a ghost (granted, I don't know much about exalted, maybe a good funeral gives you super-ghost powers or something)

>Funnily enough, mortals have even less of a chance against those then they do against Exalts. Ghosts, Demons, and Gods are pretty much invulnerable against mortals due to not having a material form unless they want one, where-as a fresh Exalt will still fall to large enough army of mortals simply due to attrition. The picture of both these guys looks more like it's in the west to me(could be wrong, but this bit of speculation doesn't actually change anything), and given that it's before the return of the Solars, that means it's likely Gods(Most likely Storm Goddesses), Lunars, Dragon-Blooded, Fae, or Ghosts.

If it could've been ghosts then why were you (or somebody else) talking about nuke-punching as if it were relevant?

>If you can convince someone they've done wrong, they may well want to redeem themselves. Whether it's worth or they deserve the effort being an entirely different matter.

Everybody deserves/is worth the effort, if it can be done. But for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that's not the case and it IS possible to be more deserving of it than someone else.

Deserving the effort/being worth the effort, in my mind, is going to affected in large part by whether or not it can be done. Granted, it's not the only factor, but if it CAN'T be done, then it's not worth the effort. Step one is convincing them they did wrong.

The whip guy is convinced he did nothing wrong because 'thats how the world works'. The bounty hunter is convinced he did nothing wrong because he's in denial that he sold souls to oblivion.

Whip guy isn't going to be convinced because he's seen what supernatural beings can do. (Granted, I'm not convinced he saw more than a few ghosts, but his point of view is what matters) The bounty hunter could potentially be convinced that he's lieing to himself.
>>
No. 66079 ID: 5d121c

>>66073
People are intrinsically precious, no matter what. Worse people deserve more help because they need more help. It's as simple as that. Fair has nothing to do with it.

Practical constraints have no bearing on what's right or wrong. The right thing to do doesn't stop being right because it's very difficult.

I do agree that if we had to eat one of the souls but could spare the other, then the one that was in denial should be spared. But as long as we see ghosts as people that should exist in the world, eating either is a vile act and we shouldn't pretend otherwise, regardless of how necessary it is.

I'm still saying that ghosts shouldn't exist, though. And since reincarnation and eaten by prototitan are equivalent, we may as well eat them.
>>
No. 66081 ID: 521153

>>66079
I'm not inclined to determine whether or not ghosts, as a category of being, "should" exist or not. Individuals? Sure. But I'm not about to go on a genocide because I don't like what they're made of, or even advocate doing so or claiming it would be alright.

If people are intrinsically precious, no matter what, then even people who "shouldn't" exist should be preserved. And ghosts are still people. If you claim that they shouldn't exist based on a detrimental effect that they have on the world, you are making a moral judgement based on practical concerns. Which I think is totally fine, you should just admit it.
>>
No. 66082 ID: 4ede1b

>And if he actually did care about his survival, he would pour all of it into defenses against the supernatural.

There aren't really many good options for mortals to defend against non-mortals in Exalted. The best thing you can have to protect you against them is resources and influence that makes your death an inconvenience, to be under the banner of something powerful that would take an attack on you as an attack against them, or to be owed favors/liked by some other non-mortal. So basically, politics is your most reliable defense.

>I see no reason to pour money into a funeral ceremony that's nice enough to warrant mentioning how nice it is when your main concern is staying alive and you don't know that you're going to stick around as a ghost (granted, I don't know much about exalted, maybe a good funeral gives you super-ghost powers or something)

The stuff that's buried with you generally shows up in the Underworld with you as a sort of dark reflection of what it was. It's also a status thing, which is important if you care about people being aware that you have resources that make messing with you inconvenient.

>If it could've been ghosts then why were you (or somebody else) talking about nuke-punching as if it were relevant?
I was exaggerating mainly, as that is a bit far for everything I listed but an experienced Dragon Blooded and Lunar.(Every Celestial exalt who wants to can parry nukes pretty easy. Dragon-Blooded take a bit longer and it's a bit more costly but still doable. The punching through a castle wall is actually the more difficult of the two, but still not too big a deal) And I don't think it was ghosts, though I acknowledge it as a possibility. My first thoughts were that it was a Terrestrial God, Fae, or Dragonblooded. Dragonblooded or Fae seem the most likely.

>Whip guy isn't going to be convinced because he's seen what supernatural beings can do.
Not sure where you're getting that from. Kairosa outright says he was all about survival. If he's working for us, not being scum is the key to survival. Though honestly, with social combat being a thing, any mostly mortal thing we have unrestricted access to might as well have their likes, dislikes, and goals be made of putty once we actually develop some social magics. Effort wise they'd be pretty much equal in terms of what we'd have to do to convince them to change their ways.
>>
No. 66084 ID: cee89f

>>66082
>There aren't really many good options for mortals to defend against non-mortals in Exalted. The best thing you can have to protect you against them is resources and influence that makes your death an inconvenience, to be under the banner of something powerful that would take an attack on you as an attack against them, or to be owed favors/liked by some other non-mortal. So basically, politics is your most reliable defense.

...Your best defense is to be a politician? ... Then why did he become a slaver instead of, say, A POLITICIAN?! Slavers are hated by many, at least a politician could get something done with his own life. Sure, he probably couldn't have done the same thing in death, but he didn't know he'd be a ghost

>The stuff that's buried with you generally shows up in the Underworld with you as a sort of dark reflection of what it was. It's also a status thing, which is important if you care about people being aware that you have resources that make messing with you inconvenient.

Sure but he didn't know he'd be murdered or become a ghost, so why would he set that money aside ahead of time when he could put that into gaining more influence and power?

>I was exaggerating mainly, as that is a bit far for everything I listed but an experienced Dragon Blooded and Lunar.(Every Celestial exalt who wants to can parry nukes pretty easy. Dragon-Blooded take a bit longer and it's a bit more costly but still doable. The punching through a castle wall is actually the more difficult of the two, but still not too big a deal) And I don't think it was ghosts, though I acknowledge it as a possibility. My first thoughts were that it was a Terrestrial God, Fae, or Dragonblooded. Dragonblooded or Fae seem the most likely.

*shrug* It might just be that I'm not that familiar with exalted, but I thought of spirits. Fae, maybe, but Dragonblooded never even crossed my mind. Sure, their POWERS are supernatural, but as far as I know they're still unmistakably human.

>Not sure where you're getting that from.

He's the ghost of what appears to be an old individual that has been around since before the Sun heroes came back, which apparently happened long ago. It'd be a miracle if he wasn't stuck in his ways BEFORE he became a creature that defines 'stuck in your ways'.

>Kairosa outright says he was all about survival. If he's working for us, not being scum is the key to survival.

Yes, because that's TOTALLY how redemption works. You FORCE someone to be a nice guy. Get the lobotomy knife! Needle. Thing. =p

In all seriousness, redemption is something that must be willingly embraced, else 'tis meaningless. Keeping the guy in our care won't really help him WANT to help people - especially since we're supernatural ourselves.

>Though honestly, with social combat being a thing, any mostly mortal thing we have unrestricted access to might as well have their likes, dislikes, and goals be made of putty once we actually develop some social magics. Effort wise they'd be pretty much equal in terms of what we'd have to do to convince them to change their ways.

I'd say we should try and redeem both... IF we had the resources/time to justify not eating them. Which we don't.

>>66079
Where do people keep GETTING this idea that the souls we eat are reincarnated? Wordblood made it clear when we ate that first soul that it didn't go off to the Wheel - he took it apart like what would happen at the wheel, but he still ate it, it still was absorbed into us.
>>
No. 66085 ID: 2a0f24

Ultimately there is no absolute morality in Exalted. We need to look at the future consequences of making a choice.
>>
No. 66087 ID: 5d121c

>>66081

I'm primarily claiming they shouldn't exist based on what I know about their nature. They are fragments of souls filled with nothing but decay and memories, not people. The fact that they are destroying the world is secondary, I like to tack it on because it is very compelling.

I don't think this is a moral judgment. It's more just a fact. At least unless Jukashi's interpretation isn't different.
>>
No. 66088 ID: 5d121c

>>66084
I wasn't saying that the souls are reincarnated, I was saying that being eaten and reincarnated are equivalent. As far as Wordblood explained it. They are scrubbed clean of everything in Lethe, effectively making them just neutral energy when they enter their next life.

Of course, I suppose this could be disputed, but I was just going by Wordblood's explanation.
>>
No. 66093 ID: 4ede1b

>>66084
I don't mean politics as in governance and all that. I mean having a hand in political affairs, interest groups, having an ear of those in power and in charge. Politics has like six different definitions. Context should've made it clear what I meant. Being a Slaver with a lot of wealthy clients gives you the connections and money to make anyone who offs you at least some enemies.

>*shrug* It might just be that I'm not that familiar with exalted, but I thought of spirits. Fae, maybe, but Dragonblooded never even crossed my mind. Sure, their POWERS are supernatural, but as far as I know they're still unmistakably human.

Yeah, I think most people who're familiar with Exalted's first thought of Supernaturals screwing over mortals(and the mortal surviving it) is actually the Exalted. Probably The Dragonblooded Dynasts during the Age of Sorrows, which is when this guy is from. First Age it'd have been the Solars. If no Exalts then the Fae. Ghosts are likely last on the list.
>>
No. 66096 ID: b3952d

>>66024
...We totally need to create some Dire Raccoon first circle devas
>>
No. 66097 ID: b3952d

Btw, when we were looking into Deva elements, did we consider things like Earth and Air? Would we get feedback from Gaia if we did that? I've forgotten the details.

I've just been thinking that it would be nice to have more land and air in here, so we can eventually bring others inside and stuff.
>>
No. 66098 ID: cee89f

>>66096
I would like to make a radical proposition:

If we can control the form of Saulanna's own sub-devas (assuming she's a lord), we make them ALL RACCOONS!!

Imagine: Raccoon secretaries, raccoon messengers from one end of our body to another, an army of raccoons to RULE OUR BODY WITH AN IRON FIST!! WE SHALL CONQUER ALL OF EXISTENCE AND ABSORB AN ENTIRE KINGDOM INTO OUR BODIES, CREATING AN ARMY OF SLAVES THAT HAVE NO PURPOSE BUT TO SERVE AND FEAR THE ALMIGHTY TITAN-EMPRESS SAULANNA RICYANA ROCKBLOSSOM!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

...

*ah hem* By which i mean, to lovingly care for our inner world and our fellow devas, and to always strive for goodness in our world body. Our sub-devas should be kind, loving raccoons who most definitely do NOT commit horrendous torture on anyone (or anything) in our inner world who even dares to consider we might not be benevolent and kind.

...

I'm totally not evil. >.> <.< >.>
>>
No. 66101 ID: a28731

>>66047
>i was under the impression he was a bounty hunter who occasionally worked for slavers, not a slaver himself.
And waiter dude only occasionally murders people, being a full time waiter takes up most of his time.
Since when is doing a crime as your part time job a mitigating factor? The only possible question is how many victims he had doing it part time rather then full time. And I consider 1 victim to be enough for a sentence of true death. And a person being a criminal part time for 100 years can rack up a higher victim count then one doing it full time for 10 years.

>>66081
This is exhaled, ghosts can be made to not exist without genocide.
Its as simple as stopping the creation of new ghosts and resurrecting all existing ghosts.
When the now living individuals who used to be ghosts die again they will not become ghosts again thanks to the preventative measurements.
>>
No. 66102 ID: cee89f

>>66097
But I like the island aesthetic we have going for our inner world =( Can't we keep doing that? Or even just learn to manipulate the land/air ourselves?

>>66099
>Since when is doing a crime as your part time job a mitigating factor?
A) When the other guy does the crime full-time and we're asking the question 'which guy is more redeemable'.

B) Precision is important.
>>
No. 66103 ID: f2c20c

>>66077
>You're putting how you're seen above what you think is right. That's very clearly pride.
Yes, it is fundamentally a type of pride. Yet, it is not pride as most people see it (pumping yourself up on your own), which is the distinction that I was trying to make. It is an easily identifiable outside force making him feel he needs to do it, not just his own ego. That outside force is a family member, so on top of everything else I've said, love of family is part of what's motivating him. It's why he feels that the way he's seen by that person is important. C'mon, dude, put yourself in his shoes.
>>
No. 66104 ID: f2c20c

>>66079
>People are intrinsically precious, no matter what. Worse people deserve more help because they need more help. It's as simple as that. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Yeah, and I'm sure you don't pull out weeds in your garden either. Some people are just bad, kiddo. A person's actions cannot be blamed purely on their situation; they ALWAYS have a choice. ALWAYS. At worst, the choice is between doing something terrible and having terrible things happen to them. They still have that choice. In this case, slaver dude chose to be evil out of convenience. You can't help a person like that become good. You just can't. At best, you can make it convenient for them to stop doing evil things. They would still be a terrible fucking person.

>Kairosa said he knew, he was just kinda in denial about it.
Denial MEANS refusing to accept the truth. OF COURSE HE FUCKING KNEW. To be in denial you have to know the truth first!
>>
No. 66107 ID: 1da170

Being Saulanna Rickayana Rockblossom, you CAN.

But it's not evil or even particularly nasty to say, "seriously, fuck that shit, eat their faces."

We can have our Saulanna be a good person slash one of the Nice Exalted without making her a gorram saint.

Seriously, it's like people are trying to farm lightside points here.
>>
No. 66109 ID: e29d20

>>66078
>(granted, I don't know much about exalted, maybe a good funeral gives you super-ghost powers or something)
Yeah, it does, kind of. In Exalted, if you have any reason to think you'll linger as a ghost, you're going to want to plan a snazzy funeral with lots of stuff buried with you, animals or even slaves sacrificed to you, because all of that stuff becomes magical when you get to the Underworld. Without any grave goods you're basically destitute in the Underworld, and it makes it really easy for the servants of the Deathlords to hunt you down for soulforging or for some enemy you may not have even known you had to hunt you down post-mortem to torture you or enslave you.

And to top it off, even if ghosts have magic, their grave goods will probably be superior to actually learning it because it's expensive, takes years to learn, and even when you get it it's very narrowly situational, and so weak that even if a place where it could come up does so it's almost not worth bothering with. It's just better to get magic items and use your essence to attune to them.
>>
No. 66110 ID: 521153

>>66087
Do you remember the guard guy we were talking to? He has a ghost. He formed an opinion of us based off of information he received on us, and then defended that opinion of us against us in a debate, and then we convinced him to change his mind. So. As a ghost he could learn new things (facts on Saulanna), form new opinions based on information gained (Saulanna is dangerous), and change his opinion when presented with new information (Saulanna isn't as bad as he originally thought. Together with his emotional responses, that is enough to call him a person. He's people. And a ghost.

Now, most ghosts aren't like him if I'm remembering my lore correctly, but that ghosts CAN be like him means we really oughtn't condemn all who exist in the broad state of ghostliness.
>>
No. 66111 ID: 5d121c

>>66107
I agree. We just can't have her accept the situation as OK. The fact that it's wrong doesn't outweigh the fact that it's necessary, we just can't pretend that it isn't wrong if we want to stay nonevil.
>>
No. 66113 ID: 5d121c

>>66110
I suppose. These things get confusing when applied to fantastic creatures.
>>
No. 66114 ID: bf54a8

captain is a high class ghost because when he was alive his... whatever a mortal uses to mean lvl was high for mortals. he is of the kind that could of become a ghost BEFORE lethe was damaged. most ghosts are bad at changing because they get sucked into lethe but come out of the broken areas into the deadlands. so their spiritual energy is VERY low. gevin is medium tier i think. he was in that spot since he died, which was before it turned into a deadland. so he was probably a tight ball of energy on death that refused to budge. and manifested when the energy of the deadland hit him. that refusal to ever budge from that spot is what let him resist being sucked into lethe but is also why when we found him he was still standing there.

anyway, kickass titan attacks, like using a sword made of words. or lasers of time.
>>
No. 66146 ID: 05906d

Sword of time, pacers of words? I imagine those words spelling things like pow zap zot and blammo.
>>
No. 66147 ID: 05906d

Lasers I was supposed to say. Phone not letting me delete.
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No. 66213 ID: 368bd2

How much TW would it cost to gain an 'Sense absolute truth' ability and/or an 'Absolute oath' ability.

We could resolve these moral issues by giving them a second chance "Will you redeem yourself and become a force for good?"

Then we can stop wondering if these bad guys are redeemable, or worth saving, and ~know~.

Plus it's really useful all the time, too.
>>
No. 66217 ID: 9cdfda

still don't see the point in restraining ourselves to being moral when we could potentially make reality our little bitch by being unscrupulous.

said little bitch will cry out our name in ecstasy when we spank its ass.
>>
No. 66219 ID: bf54a8

why do people think taking to them before eating them will do anything? we will know EVERYTHING about them when they get eaten. they can say NOTHING that would give us more info then eating them would.
>>
No. 66220 ID: be7fd9

>>66219
It's not about useful knowledge. It's a courtesy- a final respect. You allow the condemned to give their final words. To beg, to make excuses, to make their peace, shout defiance, justify themselves, whatever. It's only decent to give them one last chance to speak their peace (especially as the time stop means it costs us nothing to do so).
>>
No. 66221 ID: cee89f

>>66219
It's respectful, for one, and it costs Saulanna absolutely nothing to listen to what they have to say, especially since she has two souls that can feed as well as a time-stop effect in her head.
>>
No. 66224 ID: cee89f

>>66219
Actually, come to think of it, when we ate the soulcraftsman, we got a lot of techniques but no actual memories. Guess that's another benefit Kai brings to the table.
>>
No. 66230 ID: 370c40

>>66220
I don't mind listening to their last words. I don't think actually trying to redeem either of these guys is worth our time, especially since we have lots of more cooperative ghosts available to us. If we want to redeem someone horrible we can go redeem the Yozi or something. Those guys would actually be useful.
>>
No. 66231 ID: be7fd9

>>66224
I think you got that backwards. Kairosa brings us the ability to peer into the past of people (and things). We've always had the ability to absorb memories from ghosts we eat. (We did with the mobster, remember?). Wordblood had just improved his technique since then, and we chose not to take the memories. Because we didn't want anything to do with them.

>>66230
Oh, I agree. The people talking redemption are off their rockers. We've confirmed these ghosts did the crime. Now they get to do the time. Well, get eaten by Time. Same difference.
>>
No. 66234 ID: cee89f

>>66231
Ok, one, we can still hear their last words. Redemption isn't an option, but we can respect them.

Two: we didn't get entire memories, just impressions and ideas.
>>
No. 66237 ID: de5bc9

>>66234
That's 'cuz Wordblood did his best to hold onto the memories, so Saulanna wouldn't get overwhelmed.
>>
No. 66239 ID: a28731

>>66224
that's because word-blood has been intentionally DISCARDING the memories and keeping only the skills.
He split up the ghost into TW, memories, and skills. Skills and TW got absorbed and memories discarded.
I don't see how kai will change that, except perhaps being more efficient then wordblood (there was some seepage).

Nor do I think it would be healthy to absorb the memories of others. However, if perhaps we can use them to create a "book" for each person consumed inside the our own little world for later perusal if needed, then that would be fine.
>>
No. 66243 ID: 4ede1b

>>66239
>>66234
To my knowledge Wordblood hasn't been discarding the Memories, he was shielding us from them and absorbing them himself because he could handle them while we can't. There's never been a mention of them being discarded, only him catching them so they don't overpower us.

The upgrades to Ease of Consumption which we spent a healthy chunk of Titan's Will on are why we don't get hit with the memories anymore. The one actually nomming the person is better able to shield us because we put points into that particular capability.
>>
No. 66271 ID: 9db85e

Plus, wordblood specifically mentioned that we'd get knowledge of other criminals who were still at large if we ate them. People they had worked with, aka, memories.

It's all just knowledge really skills, personal history, whatever.
>>
No. 66275 ID: cee89f

>>66271
Actually, Kairosa said that. =P

>>66239
>>66243
Okay, i get it, I was wrong! Sorry =P

>Omnomnom
Guys, we can hear their last words. It's not like we don't have time to waste on asking - Both of these souls are exhausted from imprisonment, we've got three devas on our side, two of whom are efficient eaters and one of whom can at least fight off a mugger.

We're gonna eat them anyway, but we can at least hear anything they have to say. It's not like it's gonna hurt.
>>
No. 66276 ID: de5bc9

>>66275
Correction: two Lord Souls, one freaky-Luna/Gaia/Autochton/Wyld/Dead-Titan/Saulanna-Titan thing (seriously, what-the-fuck is the only appropriate reaction), and one weak Queen-Soul human-soul(s?) thing.
>>
No. 66285 ID: cee89f

>>66276
'Deva' refers to all of our own souls, and to the Inner Saulanna (as opposed to the outer). We don't know for sure if the Lunar exaltation will behave as a deva in all instances and we know Saulanna can do SOME inner-world combat, so we're guaranteed three devas.

>>/quest/486445
True. But unfortunately, it's what most human beings do when they're raised in a culture: they assume they can't change it and resign themselves to it.

Did you hear the story about the woman in new york who got assaulted three times in one night? My psychology teacher liked to tell that story.
>>
No. 66286 ID: 4ede1b

Something I realized. Having a protagonist that's persuaded by arguments instead of going with the majority means that there is incentive to hold off on saying your piece so that you can, with your own point, address the benefits it has over other options or the failings of other suggestions.

...That isn't really productive to keeping people to a maximum of two posts

>>66275
These ghosts are older, active for quite some time, and were only imprisoned after The Dragon's Shadow showed up. They both had to be powerful enough to control other ghosts too, and the Slaver may well have been working directly for a Deathlord. Mostly though, I just want to limit the chance for hesitation and a guilt trip from other posters.
>>
No. 66300 ID: c6319f

>>66275
>two of whom are efficient eaters
As far as I am aware, that is incorrect. Part of the creation of Kairosa involved moving all of the "eating stuff" abilities we gave Wordblood over to Kairosa.

As to your other point: why? Why listen to what they have to say? It is a waste of our time that serves only to prolong the period of time they are going to be in intense terror of their impending fate, or cause false hope depending on how we phrase the opportunity to them. It is cruel. Consuming them will make known to us their intentions, desires, regrets, basically anything that could possibly be contained in their last words. But better, more efficiently, faster, and more honestly.

Pragmatically and ethically, we should not seek their last words. Also, that's more work for Jukashi to do and I would rather the quest not be bogged down with it.
>>
No. 66303 ID: cee89f

>>66300
>As far as I am aware, that is incorrect. Part of the creation of Kairosa involved moving all of the "eating stuff" abilities we gave Wordblood over to Kairosa.
I'll check on this in a minute, but I was under the impression we copied Wordblood's enhancements over to her.

>waste of time
We can stop time. We have all the time in the world. It's not a waste if you have unlimited of something.

>As to your other point: why? Why listen to what they have to say? It is a waste of our time that serves only to prolong the period of time they are going to be in intense terror of their impending fate, or cause false hope depending on how we phrase the opportunity to them. It is cruel.
It's already cruel to eat a pair of souls, and it's even crueler to eat them without even so much as a "Any last words?".

This isn't a Bond Villian quest, it's not like that last bit of conversation is going to kill us in a ludicrously ironic fashion.

>Consuming them will make known to us their intentions, desires, regrets, basically anything that could possibly be contained in their last words. But better, more efficiently, faster, and more honestly.
That last part, I vehemently disagree on. 'More honestly'? No. 'Better'? Hell no. It's rude and more importantly sick to eat someone like a snack that gets no say.

>Pragmatically and ethically, we should not seek their last words.
As I and others have said, there is no pragmatic risk here. And I wholeheartedly disagree on 'ethically'.

>>66286
>...That isn't really productive to keeping people to a maximum of two posts
I think you mean 'conducive' =/
>>
No. 66306 ID: c6319f

>>66303
I meant "more honestly" as "without the room for deception" and "better" as "more completely" which are both inarguably true.

>It's rude and more importantly sick to eat someone like a snack that gets no say.
But that's what they are. They have no say. Nothing they say is going to change things for them. Asking for or demanding they give us their last words is just taunting them. It is needless and serves only to cause them emotional distress above and beyond what they will necessarily experience. It is sick.

Saulanna shouldn't play with her food. And playing is what you are proposing, toying with their emotions for what appears to be self-satisfaction. I doubt either of them will appreciate the gesture. I mean, if somebody just suddenly told you "I'm going to kill you, any last words?" you aren't going to appreciate the opportunity to express yourself. You are going to be far too hung up on the whole being killed thing. We would have to go through explaining why we felt they deserved execution, our knowledge of what we consider their crimes to be, and why we have the authority to decide their fate before they would be in a state to respond with more than blubbering begs of mercy to the opportunity to give 'last words'.

If there was an established legal process that was deciding their fate, that they knew about, or they were otherwise already aware that they were facing death, sure, giving them a moment to speak is respectful. As it stands, it would just be pitiful and mean.
>>
No. 66307 ID: cee89f

>>66306
>I meant "more honestly" as "without the room for deception" and "better" as "more completely" which are both inarguably true.

Oh.

Still incorrect. We'll still get the big picture from them when we eat them, so we'll get the complete version without deception anyway.

>But that's what they are. They have no say. Nothing they say is going to change things for them. Asking for or demanding they give us their last words is just taunting them.

No, saying 'And if I take a liking to you, I might make it painless' is taunting them. Asking for their last words is just being polite.

>It is needless and serves only to cause them emotional distress above and beyond what they will necessarily experience.

I disagree. Judging from suggestions made so far (I could be wrong) we're trying to play Saulanna as a human with titanic powers, as opposed to a titan with a human deva. Keeping sight of the human element is important.

>Saulanna shouldn't play with her food.

..........
I'm gonna go pull my mind out of that gutter.

>And playing is what you are proposing, toying with their emotions for what appears to be self-satisfaction. I doubt either of them will appreciate the gesture. I mean, if somebody just suddenly told you "I'm going to kill you, any last words?" you aren't going to appreciate the opportunity to express yourself. You are going to be far too hung up on the whole being killed thing. We would have to go through explaining why we felt they deserved execution, our knowledge of what we consider their crimes to be, and why we have the authority to decide their fate before they would be in a state to respond with more than blubbering begs of mercy to the opportunity to give 'last words'.

Noooo, I'm proposing we be nice about it. 'Playing with her food' would be something like letting them out and then letting them try and run, or asking Wordblood/Kai to make the eating process slow and painful.

If my other option was to stay in a crystal for all eternity, death by swift, nigh-painless (as far as we know) execution would be preferable. And yes, I would appreciate the opportunity for any last words. (which at the moment would either be "You're a dick" or "My greatest regret is that I never finished the bible, nor finished my novel", depending on my mood)

>If there was an established legal process that was deciding their fate, that they knew about, or they were otherwise already aware that they were facing death, sure, giving them a moment to speak is respectful. As it stands, it would just be pitiful and mean.

A) They do know they're gonna die - it'll probably be a relief after being stuck in a crystal and thinking they'd be in there forever.

B) We are that authority and at least one of them would react the same even with that authority since we're still a magical being.
>>
No. 66321 ID: bf54a8

you don't be NICE to people you are about to kill. you are AT BEST neutral towards them. anything more IS taunting them, making them think they have a chance to sway you, tug on your heartstrings or something. and knowing how many shmucks are here, IT COULD WORK. just eat the fuckers before they start talking and everyone here turns into wimpy mush about eating people.
>>
No. 66330 ID: 370c40

>>66300
We copied the eating powers over to Kairosa, not moved them. Wordblood still has em. We don't really have any reason to worry about these ghosts overpowering us, since they aren't even as powerful as the other ghost we ate.

Don't really mind hearing last words as long as we still eat the guys because again, trying to actually redeem them is a waste of everyone's time.
>>
No. 66333 ID: cee89f

>>66321
>you don't be NICE to people you are about to kill. you are AT BEST neutral towards them. anything more IS taunting them, making them think they have a chance to sway you, tug on your heartstrings or something.

Doing polite/nice things for someone is not the same thing as being nice. I'm not saying we shake their hands, offer them a cup of coffee and a night in our pants before eating them, I'm saying we bring them in, tell them this is their last chance if they want to say anything, and then eat them.

You and Abeo are acting like we're either going to twirl our mustaches and laugh maniacally at their pathetic attempts to sway us... or promise them life only to snatch it away. They're gonna die either way, I just wanna hear their last words.

> and knowing how many shmucks are here, IT COULD WORK. just eat the fuckers before they start talking and everyone here turns into wimpy mush about eating people.

You say that like having reservations about eating people is a BAD thing. Seriously, gettin' creepy.

I think we all agree that, given our current predicament, we're gonna have to eat them. There is absolutely no reason to not listen to their last words.
>>
No. 66334 ID: 3bad4c

I really do wonder if this senseless arguing stops Jukashi from posting more updates.

The same thing
over
and over
and over.

I know I'd run for the hills.
>>
No. 66335 ID: a07204

>>66333
I have to disagree. At the end of it, this is pretty much sating our ego making ourselves 'look' good by hearing their last requests. These souls were put under stasis not knowing what is going to happen to them. All of a sudden, they are brought out of stasis in front of NOT their captor, but a raccoon lady, a dragon made of words, and a horned girl who is arms, cloaks, and what looks like space(who looks very, very hungry). Next thing you know, the raccoon chick goes, 'hey, for being a slaver I am going to erase you from existence! Any last words?'

The one guy will say nothing, then the delusional bastard would scream and cry and beg asking to live, that he didn't mean to even though we know other wise, pinning the blame on others, and doing all one would do when they are SUDDENLY PRESENTED WITH THEIR CERTAIN DEATH.

This is not being polite, this is making a simple execution a means to make ourselves feel more human when all it does is make us seem less so. We get access to all their memories as they die and can pretty much figure out what they would say WITHOUT giving them those few horrible moments when they realize their are going to be eaten by things they know to fear.

If you want to be considered good, make their death simple, quick, and painless. No chance for struggle or fear, just quick release. Grab, eat, swallow. If you want to reminiscence, do so through the memories and not through their screams of fear, grief, and begging.
>>
No. 66336 ID: 3bad4c

Jukashi just updated. Excuse me while I get the tomato sauce so I can eat my words. :p
>>
No. 66344 ID: 370c40

>>66335
I really don't care about being considered 'good'. But ghosts should be considered people as much as any of the other many kinds of people in Creation and elsewhere. And we shouldn't just eat people without any thought or consideration given to it. It's significant to eat a person! We don't want to turn into what some of the Yozi have become. We may not have decided on our goals yet, but we could at least aspire to do better than the previous king of the Titans. Guy kinda got his ass kicked, for one thing.
>>
No. 66345 ID: cee89f

>>66335
>I have to disagree. At the end of it, this is pretty much sating our ego making ourselves 'look' good by hearing their last requests.
A) 'Ego sating'? Interesting way to put it. This is a system where each action has a chance to influence Saulanna's behavior, regardless of circumstances. 'Looking' good doesn't matter (except in social combat - dots of beauty and all), but the reasoning behind your actions DOES matter. Saulanna's intent would not be so they feel fear, but so they can get due respect.

B) Let's say you were imprisoned indefinitely. You have no idea what's going to happen to you, but you have no contact with anyone else in all that time. Then, one day, you get taken to get euthanized, for whatever reason, and knew for a fact you had no way to get out. Would you like a last word? I would.

>These souls were put under stasis not knowing what is going to happen to them.
I sincerely doubt that. Even if they didn't know going in, they've probably been there for a while. Long enough to think and realize that they either were going to be stuck in the crystals forever, or brought out to be killed.

>The one guy will say nothing, then the delusional bastard would scream and cry and beg asking to live, that he didn't mean to even though we know other wise, pinning the blame on others, and doing all one would do when they are SUDDENLY PRESENTED WITH THEIR CERTAIN DEATH.
Putting aside for the moment that they're already dead, we could explain it better than 'wes gonna eat ya bitch' and many ghosts DO want to pass on... You're being WAY too generous with the whip guy's reaction, to be frank. I imagine he will do much the same - as well as curse us out like a sailor.

>This is not being polite, this is making a simple execution a means to make ourselves feel more human when all it does is make us seem less so.
Last I checked, giving a damn was a part of being a good person. Sure as hell moreso than magic powers ever made you a bad one.

And as said here, >>/quest/486590 this shouldn't be quick and easy for us.

>>/quest/486578

A) Ghost abilities suck. They're not gonna have anything powerful enough to escape an angry, hungry titan from inside their world-body.

B) It's been implied that they have been stuck in those crystals for a loooooong time. As we saw with the soulforger, ghosts lose lots of energy in captivity. So even if they DID have something like that, they wouldn't have the energy for it.
>>
No. 66350 ID: 370c40

So I was bored and I've been thinking about something we discussed a little bit earlier. Elements for a Seeing soul. I think most people could probably agree that a Seeing soul of some kind would be useful at some point. Creation is a very, very big place, and there are all sorts of things to see, and a Seeing soul is almost guaranteed to produce plothooks for Jukashi to introduce new stories with. The only major question is when we should make it and what element to use. The two elements that were suggested in previous discussion were Truth and Knowledge, but I feel like those sort of step on Wordblood's territory, and they also kind of feel like they are going too broad in an attempt to make the most versatile possible soul. To quote Jukashi 'Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.' Broadest possible element isn't necessarily the way to go here. We should at least consider something a little closer to the middle ground between 'usable in every possible situation ever and thus sort of weak' and 'so narrow it's only good for one thing but MAD POWERFUL'. For illustrative purposes, I'm not necessarily suggesting this one, we could use the element of Fire. Fire is definitely less broadly useful than Truth or Knowledge, but still, there are fires all over the damn place. Even in the distant north, approaching the elemental pole of air, with all those ice cities and what not, people still use fire. Fire is how people there stay alive. Seeing where fire is would undoubtedly be able to point us to any civilization in the area, and then use that fire to observe things going on. And fire is one of the elements of Creation and Gaia, so there are both elementals and Dragonblooded Exalted in MASSIVE numbers who our Seeing soul would be perfectly suited to spy on. Also like hundreds to thousands of Fire-aspected Manses and Demesnes. All kinds of Exalted sorcerers use fire elementals for one purpose or another, so we could have a good idea where to find other sorcerers and their libraries. Libraries Wordblood could eat. And it might give us an idea of where Gaia went. There are even fires in Malfeas and the Underworld. Also Fire would let us gain fire shooting powers. Because not everything a Deva does is limited to its purpose, they can have purely Element powers too.

That's just an example, though. There are all kinds of things we could use for an element.

Was also thinking about Autochthon. There are only three Titans outside Malfeas. The Dragon's Shadow is basically defined by being an evil bastard so we probably don't want much to do with him. Gaia disappeared to somewhere, who knows where, but if we even found her, she's sort of buddies with the Sun, so she might not be the best to reveal ourselves to. And Autochthon disappeared to somewhere and is in the process of dying. He needs help, and the same people we want to avoid knowing about us have already sort of screwed him over multiple times. If we could find him and help him, he would most likely be grateful, and wouldn't have much reason to go to anyone we wouldn't want him to go to with the information that we are a Titan. There are good reasons to seek out Autochthon, compared to the other two possible Titans. But as to how to find him...a Seeing soul would be useful, if it had an appropriate element, and we know six of the elements of Autochthon's Lord Devas. Steam, Metal, Lightning, Oil, Crystal, and Smoke. Given that he is dying, he isn't likely to try to fight us if we use any of those elements, and I think at least five of those are pretty interesting. I'm not sure about Steam, but a soul focused on any of those six could allow us to find Autochthon. When we created Kairosa, a soul of Time, she picked up a lot of information about Gaia's Time soul, the story of Haht'hek, the Dragon of Time. Kairosa is a Feeding soul, not a Seeing one, but she still picked up a lot of information that basically hardly anyone in Creation knows. If we create a Seeing soul with the same element as one of Autochthon's, we could pick up potentially a lot more than that.

Anyone have any thoughts?
>>
No. 66352 ID: 4ede1b

>>66350
Autobot has Titan Leprosy, so I'm hesitant to share Elements with him. Likewise I'm a bit hesitant to make helping him one of our immediate goals(Though longterm it's definitely something I want to do), as I would want to be significantly stronger before risking getting Titan Leprosy ourselves.

As for more "elemental" elements.. I'd prefer to stick within either the theme of reality as a story or things linked to being human for our elements.
>>
No. 66354 ID: 370c40

>>66352
None of this is immediate, since the Seeing soul is probably not even going to be our next soul. I agree that catching Autochthon's illness would be a concern at our current power level. But since we are a Lunar, after a certain point it probably will never be worth worrying about again. Resistance to diseases is pretty clearly within the Lunar sphere. I'm trying to think more long term though, since the current discussion on ghost eating seems to be getting a little stale. If we want our own Exalted helping Autochthon is probably the fast way to accomplish it, and he could help us learn Titan stuff. Plus he is basically the best at making stuff, that's useful. So long term helping him is something we should consider.
>>
No. 66355 ID: 4ede1b

>>66354
There are a lot of things, like Titans, that are very good at not getting diseases. Autobot managed to stay sick even when he had first Age Twilights competing for his help, which speaks to just how potent his illness is. Unless we have a powerful healing soul or noble devas with elements whose themes resonate with not getting sick, I wouldn't trust our ability to stay healthy in the face of such a powerful disease.
>>
No. 66356 ID: 370c40

>>66355
As far as I'm aware none of the other Titans ever caught it. It may not even be contagious at all. And the Lunar exaltations whole thing is about survival and resisting environmental hardships, which includes diseases. The Lunar shard is already affecting every Deva we create.
>>
No. 66357 ID: 4ede1b

>>66356
Autobot's disease in canon is something of one of those unanswered mysteries meant to always be a mystery, but there's still lots of stuff in whats written about it that hints at things. Some of those include the fact that it can affect the Alchemical Exalted which serves as the base/prototype of all other Exalted, being linked to his Elemental Pole of Smoke, the other Primordials treating him poorly because of it(possibly over the fear of a disease that could cripple one of them), it linking him to the Engine of Extinction which might be his Neverborn self, and the fact that it's "symptoms" match up very strongly with the highly contagious Tuberculosis.
>>
No. 66364 ID: 08a3db

There are other purposes besides Seeing that might give us info we would otherwise find difficult to get. One might be Memory. I'm thinking an Element of Monument might work well, and fit a possible theme for the proto-Titan. Not saying it is the best idea, or even a good one. I am a silly or stupid idea person.

On the one hand, Creation should be full of all sorts of monuments. Think of the opportunity.

On the other hand, messing around with memory might have all sorts of bad results. Amnesiacs maybe ought to have a better grasp of that stuff before meddling.
>>
No. 66374 ID: 9db85e

I thought I posted this before, but it vanished somewhere. Maybe it accidently went somewhere else.

I like Clarity as a possibility for a seeing soul. There are lots of things that are clear, it has to do with seeing and with knowledge in a tangential manner, but also more physical things such as crystal or water, are clear. It is the opposite of things that are murky or corrupted. It's pretty cool. It could work well with other elements that might have to do with healing or learning or just about anything in the future.

It's a good element.
>>
No. 66385 ID: 4ede1b

Clarity for seeing is... nice. I'd support that, but only after we have a stealth deva, which seems likely to be our next one anyway.
>>
No. 66386 ID: 3bad4c

Silly element ideas for a seeing deva?
* Insight. 'cause it has 'sight' in it.
* Serendipity. Find what you're looking for, but find something better on the way!
>>
No. 66391 ID: cee89f

I honestly still prefer truth (mostly because of passive bonuses we'd get from seeing the truth) but I'd support Clarity for our eventual seeing soul as well.

Juuuuust not yet. We need (at least) our stealth soul, maybe a few others, depending on how our situation changes.
>>
No. 66393 ID: 1da170

What we clearly need to get is a Seer of Light.

Or a Seer of Mind, that's good too.
>>
No. 66394 ID: f2c20c

>>66393
Wordblood seemed hyped for the idea of getting a Seer of Truth.

...is Mind even an Element in this context?
>>
No. 66395 ID: 370c40

>>66394
Wordblood said something about wanting to form a Deva with the element of Thought. So maybe Mind would fall under that and maybe it would be something else.
>>
No. 66396 ID: f2c20c

Seer of Thought would be interesting indeed, but... possibly limited in scope.
>>
No. 66400 ID: 695191

Would a Seer of Secrets work? That element for any other purpose could be problematically obtuse, but as a seer it could be all about searching for and exposing the unknown. Likely have the ability to detect when secrets are held and where or how they can be exposed.
>>
No. 66404 ID: 4a328b

So, when we get some more TW, how about crafting another power word or two?

Maybe something like Power Word: CHARMING to buff ourselves before our next social battle or Power Word: PROTECT as a more general use Word? We can also consult with Peregrin on the sort of Words he'd find useful, since we're going to teach them to him once we craft them.
>>
No. 66418 ID: cee89f

If I may - weren't we leaning towards a stealth soul before the Seeing soul?

I think we settled on Masks, but I'm not sure and frankly we should probably be discussing that before seeing... especially since Wordblood's world reading ability will probably fulfill some of those functions for now.

>>/quest/486945

Are you kidding? She got to be in Lord of the Rings! I'm not even an actor and I'd like to be in that movie!
>>
No. 66421 ID: 695191

>>66418
We are, but it still bears forethought. Hell I'd like to have a whole pantheon of souls planned out, if we knew more about what we'd need and how they'd grow.
>>
No. 66423 ID: a28731

>>66404
Powerwords can be crafted instantly. Thus there is absolutely no reason to ever make a powerword ahead of actually using it.

What we can do is THINK about power words so we have a list of potentially useful ones. As we come up with superior ideas modify that list (such as by removing an inferior selection).

Charm buff spell seems like a bad idea, muggles (mortal, lowly ghosts, etc) are easily swayed and greater beings will notice the active spell. Also we are currently low enough level that the TW is better invested into permanently upgrading base stats for such results (although after a few upgrades such a buff spell becomes cost effective)
>>
No. 66449 ID: 5d121c

>>66418
I thought we were doing paradox
>>
No. 66456 ID: c6319f

>>66449
I don't think paradox is particularly well suited to a stealth soul. Not the least because it isn't very user-friendly for us.

Also, masks, raccoons? It's perfect.
>>
No. 66457 ID: 695191

>>66449
Paradox is an interesting element that we have no idea would work or what purpose it would be best suited for. If anything it may be used for a subsoul under Kairosa.

Masks is probably good for stealth, but we should hear Wordbloods ideas on that first.
>>
No. 66459 ID: bf54a8

okay so 16 points. i say beauty +1 no matter what.
>>
No. 66460 ID: 9db85e

UPGRADE EVERYTHING. Lets give wordblood his world reading, and raise our soul force, and raise everybody elses, and increase everything else. YAY.

Do we have a running list of all saulana's skills and knowledge yet? She's getting pretty advanced in a lot of her capabilities.
>>
No. 66461 ID: f2c20c

It kinda sounds like Saulanna got no Sympathy or Discipline gains from making that decision because she did it for the wrong reasons!

It's like half of you didn't actually pay attention to what the choice was about in the update! Well PAY ATTENTION.
>>
No. 66463 ID: c6319f

>>66461
I felt the Sympathy/Discipline+humanity choice was forced and didn't allow my opinion on the matter, or a lot of other people's, to be represented properly. So I didn't cooperate with it. Which is fair. If half of us didn't have an option that represented our choice, can you really cast blame?
>>
No. 66464 ID: f2c20c

>>66463
By forcing your opinion on a character that didn't share it, you fucked things up.
>>
No. 66465 ID: c6319f

>>66464
The character didn't share anyone's opinion because it hadn't been determined yet. That is what we were doing.

I felt that linking the humanity issue to the one option was a stretch and lead others to choose it for selfish reasons instead of doing right by the ghosts which was the main thrust of the argument the persons who originally championed that option had. I went with the choice, and the reasons for that choice, that I had had all the way along and refuse to accept fault for other people corrupting it.

It is very challenging to distill complex issues like these down to two choices. Very hit or miss. I think on this occasion it was a miss, but that happens and the result in-game reflects that pretty well. It isn't the end of the world, and no one side is to blame. We failed together, really.
>>
No. 66467 ID: f2c20c

>>66465
Okay, let me spell things out for you.

The character had two distinct feelings on the matter.
1) sympathy for the ghosts who were about to die, which led her to want to make their deaths quick and with the least amount of stress.
2) the need to discipline herself, which would be done by forcing herself to acknowledge them as people before killing them.

Killing them quick because we don't want to give them their final words out of anger or contempt is not ANYTHING like what she was feeling.
Similarly, letting them give their last words because we feel sorry for them is contrary to her own thoughts.
Killing them quick to spare herself the experience of talking to them is just avoiding discipline, not embracing sympathy. It's embracing weakness. A failure of character.
Then there's killing them quick to avoid letting them escape, which is just a ridiculous worry. So is worrying about someone detecting them being in Saulanna's Inner World.
Lastly, killing them quick because we can just bring them back later is missing the point as well. We don't have any reason to bring them back later except to talk to them and acknowledge them as people before killing them... again.

Because of the inability for people to deal with the question in its true context, Saulanna lost all her nerve. She became weak, and indecisive. This has happened before, when we tried to be all diplomatic and nice to the Moon Heroes when Saulanna's true nature was for her to be aggressive. This will KEEP happening if we keep forcing our perspective on her rather than operating inside her headspace. We need to suggest as if we are in her world, not ours, goddamn it!
>>
No. 66468 ID: a28731

>>66467
You forgot the argument people actually made.
Killing them quick to spare them the fear and pain of knowing death is imminent and there is nothing they can do about it.
>>
No. 66469 ID: a28731

>>/quest/487280
>7 and 8 Titan's Will!
That is 7 and 8 out of 8 and 10 respectively.
Had we spent 6 after eating the first one on
2TW Saulanna SF2 to 3
2TW Kei SF2 to 3
2TW Efficiency 2 to 3

as I had suggested prior we would have gotten an additional TW from eating the second (order of consumption not mattering)
>>
No. 66470 ID: f2c20c

>>66468
Some people made that argument, yes. That's also an argument that fits with Saulanna's thoughts on the matter. I was listing arguments that didn't fit, which wound up confusing her in the end.
>>
No. 66471 ID: a28731

>>66470
Ah, thank you for clarifying. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Also you are correct then.
>>
No. 66472 ID: c6319f

>>66467
I agree people made ridiculous arguments. But as the update said, we were almost exactly split on the issue. That's what caused the problem mostly. Though it certainly didn't help that practically everyone who voted for speaking to them derided not speaking to them as inhuman and cowardly. Sort of ended up poisoning her decision a little there.

Still don't get why the "see them as people" thing was shoehorned into only one side of things, when the Sympathy side doesn't make sense unless she viewed them as people. Counterintuitive to me. The choices were shit and it was because people have been making ridiculous arguments the whole way along.
>>
No. 66473 ID: a28731

>>66472
>Still don't get why the "see them as people" thing was shoehorned into only one side of things
To demonize the opposition, common tactic in IRL polotics but you would expect people to have more courtesy than that in a game
>>
No. 66474 ID: c6319f

>>66469
About all of your plans to rapidly gain and optimally spend TW for future growth... they're neat, but I fear there could be negative reprocusions to develop so unevenly. We've only got 3(4?) of the Deva who will constitute the complete Titan. Overdeveloping them before making their peers just seems... unwise to me.
>>
No. 66476 ID: a28731

>>66474
My plan is to develop saulanna and kei evenly right now and then have WB catch up in less then a day.
However if you must, we can develop all evenly with a trivial delay.

Said plans only shave a few weeks to months off of our eventual growth.
The amounts of TW handled by an adult titan is massive, a TW every 4 minutes sounds like a lot but it really isn't in the large scheme of things. Its like being a baby titan instead of a zygote.
>>
No. 66478 ID: a28731

Presenting...
Super balanced plan of growth without ever eating another ghost or having SF be more then 1 step apart for devas:
Current status:
Saulana, Kei, Feeding efficient and wordblood are all SF2 and we have 16TW

Spend 8TW raising each of the above to 3. We now gain 1TW a day.
Spend 6TW raising saulanna and kei to SF4
24 hours later spend 3TW raising efficiency to L4. Now gain 4TW a day.
18 hours later spend 3TW raising wordblood to SF4
24 hours later saulana to SF5
24 hours later kei to SF5
24 hours later efficiency to L5. Gain is now ~16TW a day.
6 hours later WB to SF5
7.5 hours later saulanna to SF6
7.5 hours later kei to SF6
7.5 hours later efficiency to L6. Gain is now ~75TW per day
1.92 hours later saulanna SF7
1.92 hours later kei SF7
1.92 hours later efficiency to L7. Gain is now ~340 per day aka 1 per 4 minutes.
30 minutes later saulanna to SF8
...
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No. 66479 ID: 908c2d

>>66475
I think the problem with waiting (even less than a day) to develop Wordblood is we need his social abilities. Desperately. We're going to run into the other exalts sooner rather than later, and Kat almost destroyed us, even with Ask sort of backing us up. If that happens before we've gotten to Wordlblood, all we will have accomplished with our soul eating and upgrades will be making ourself a bigger prize for whichever side brainwashes us into doing what they want.
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No. 66480 ID: bf54a8

>>66479
don't waste your words, he wants to play the long game only. have tried to convince him about the short term goals for a long time and he refuses to listen.
>>
No. 66482 ID: a28731

>>66479
The alternative to give him 1 more SF right now at the cost of severely delaying everything else. Will we not need power in 3 days? 4 days?

the balanced approach DOES upgrade him immediately. it doesn't put WB as #1 priority. But putting WB as #1 priority makes us stronger only in the next 24 hours, break even in 24 hours, and weaker afterwards.

Of course, the more ghosts we eat now the faster we can boostrap. And with kei's undo ability its guilt free since we can just borrow their power and then undo the eating as if we never did so. (not the eating of the slavers but of any hypothetical ghost used for further bootstrap)
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No. 66483 ID: 908c2d

>Will we not need power in 3 days? 4 days?
Provided we make it that long.

There are other concerns beyond pure power. For one, we've already erred in the past with Wordblood. We've neglected him, and taken him for granted, and he didn't take it too well. He's going to be a long term ally- maintaining good relations and showing we value him in a demonstrable way (and giving him the means to contribute usefully to our situation instead of standing idly by) is important.

I'm also afraid there's risk in growing too quickly. You start to attract more powerful attention. We can barely cope with a few exalts now. What happens if and when we alert something worse? There's the argument t be made that rapid growth needs wait until after we've established the stealth soul.
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No. 66485 ID: a28731

>Stealth needed
You can easily slot in a stealth soul into the equation/plan and I am fine with the idea.

>We need to survive next debate
Explain how you plan to invest TW differently than my suggestion which would change the course of the discussion tomorrow. (which honestly, we can easily handle without any upgrades already if we simply have realistic goals; like delaying them)

>Growing fast attracts attention
We have already done that, it appears the dragon shadow knows.

>neglecting wordblood
He isn't being neglected. The fastest plan will have him grow to higher SF faster then any other plan by delaying mere hours.
The balanced plan will have him grow in tandem with the rest of the collective.
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No. 66486 ID: cee89f

>>66473
Yes, because nobody could've POSSIBLY thought that it would be better to give them their last words than spare them fear and pain. They HAD to have been demonizing them in ludicrously poor taste.

>>66478
We don't HAVE a day - all that's going to do is make us a more valuable asset to whomever captures us. Your plan is to go up against a social juggernaut armed with splintery wood and a stick and hope for the best, when said Juggernaut beat us like a drum last time.

Heck, Soul-eating isn't as big of a moral dilemma anymore since we can put them back together at a later date if need be.
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No. 66487 ID: 6de77b

Ok, I have no idea how much titans will it will take to level up the titan's will generation. However, if we spend all 15 on it and we get to 4/day it takes less then 4 days to regain what we spent.
For what it's worth I agree with MrTT in that we should be spending a lot on the generation of Titan's Will. We might just have to rely on our own wit to get us through the next few social situation, but I'm sure we'll be fine. We're pretty damn good at this.
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No. 66489 ID: 79ac0d

TT isn't wrong that upgrading Kairosa's passive income is an extremely effective option. Given so much as a week to expand our powers, probably the most effective option.

Neither party is here to brainwash us, it's not in their interests. They are here to recruit us into their respective organizations; the Lunars do NOT know we are a Titan, and the Ebon Dragon as presented in Lunar Quest is NOT the same Ebon Dragon as presented in Exalted canon (which is good, because the canon dragon is terrible, and not in a good way).

Losing this social combat will not destroy us. It is not a BAD END.

On the other hand, Oblivion is sealed. The Dragon sits upon his dark throne and plots. Heroes are divided and fight over scraps and empires. People are playing at chess, but nobody's interested in smashing the board; there's no world-ending threat that we need tremendous power to combat.

Therefore, this decision is one of preference. What (probably) losing this social combat in exchange for tremendous income will do is substantially change the tone and nature of Saulanna's chronicle. She won't be a small-time Queen of the Dead, laying low and making friends and alliances, but a grand and realized titan (lower-case) of whatever organization she joins. She will have finished her small-scale work and taken her place among the Heroes of the world.

On the other hand, she will have less freedom; she will be PART of something, with expectations and demands all its own. I do say less, because it's in nobody's interests (not even the Dragon's) to brainwash her or even to piss her off; think of her as a highly valued lieutenant than a Titanic attack dog. There will almost certainly be autonomy, more with the Lunars in exchange for less organizational backing than she'd get with the dragon.

But she won't be in charge. She'd be siding with NCR or Mr. House instead of making an independent Vegas, being guided instead of creating her own way.

You all should decide how much that's worth to you.
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No. 66490 ID: c6319f

>>66476
My concern was that if we pump up our currently existing Deva to being really strong, it could negatively affect Deva we make in the future. Weaken their identities, or even possibly cut down the number of Deva total we can make, due to decreaed flexibility. Which would negatively affect our maximum potential power. No idea if it is a possibility, but we have NO IDEA how this is going to work, long-term.
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No. 66491 ID: a28731

>>66486
>Yes, because nobody could've POSSIBLY thought that it would be better to give them their last words than spare them fear and pain. They HAD to have been demonizing them in ludicrously poor taste.

Logical fallacy.
Of course some people thought it is more humane to give them last words. The problem is that they CHOSE to demonize those that disagreed with them rather then accept the that others disagree with them and think its more humane to make it quick and unaware.

They did not HAVE to demonize them in poor taste. they CHOSE to.
>>
No. 66492 ID: a28731

>>66489
Great analysis altogether.

In regards to the possibility of losing social kombat tomorrow, a good way to avoid such a loss is to never engage in it in the first place. I don't mean do not SPEAK to them, I mean when you do speak do not set up an argument you would lose (like when we argued to katriyana that her boss is pure evil... even though we had wealth of evidence showing he isn't pure evil before even speaking with her; and how strongly she feels on it, and how weak our position was)

For example you can use simple misdirection. "I would love to come train with you, I do however want to put my affairs in order first... tell me where and I will go there in a month" instead of "I refuse to go with you!". That might very well lead to social combat but now the subject is a very easy one to win, rather then convincing them to let you not come with EVER (and become a mindless monster that has to be put down), you are convincing them to give you a bit of time.

You can then make clever concessions. Like promising to not use any ability that would degrade your mind before you come to the training, unless forced to in a life and death situation and if that happens to come to training early. (trick phrasing, we are personally immune from the mind degradation effect)

Or "I need more time to decide exactly which caste tattoos to go with" instead of "I refuse to get tattoos and you can't make me!" (the latter being the example given of being social fu ganged upon by all the lunar elders).

>>/questdis/487348
Here Twelfth presents another alternative to engaging in social combat.
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No. 66493 ID: a28731

>>66490
Adult titans, whose lordly devas have massive amounts of SF compared to the numbers we are dealing with, would modify themselves by recycling unwanted devas and creating new ones from scratch.

Based on that I do not think a few levels of SF difference between them will matter in the short term as long as saulanna has the highest SF (or ties for highest)
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No. 66494 ID: 79ac0d

>>66492
I'm glad you like it!

Honestly, my main concern for generating a huge Titan's Will income is that the system Jukashi's devised will start to break down at high levels - and we would be jumping to high levels.

Or perhaps that we'd spend all our time arguing about what to buy, but we do a bit of that already...

Regardless, it'd be a very substantial shift in the story. Not everybody wants to do battle flinging mountain ranges at their foes and all that.
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No. 66495 ID: c01a5d

>>66492

Well put.

Personally, I would rather go off and do our own thing than be shoehorned into either the Lunar's or the Dragon's camp. Though it might be interesting for a time to go with one or the other.

The main thing I think we need to avoid, is becoming so convinced of their cause that we end up "on their team" as it were.

Though I really like the stealth action-y idea. I mean, no reason we NEED to play by their game.

It would make it easier to build our abilities how we want to, if we just avoid the entire situation.
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No. 66496 ID: 406926

>>66492
>I mean when you do speak do not set up an argument you would lose (like when we argued to katriyana that her boss is pure evil... even though we had wealth of evidence showing he isn't pure evil before even speaking with her; and how strongly she feels on it, and how weak our position was)
The problem here is that we didn't even want to fight that argument- she did, and because she has more social skills than us, we couldn't escape it. We can't pick and choose what battles we fight unless we're a decent social combatant- if we are talking to another Hero and they want to whip out the social combat, then they can choose any argument they want to start swaying our opinion, and they will always choose a strong one so that they have the greatest chance of influencing us successfully.

Anyway, personally rather than invest in efficiency right now, I'd like to throw everything into social competence and use that to buy ourselves more time. Not for generation purposes, but because more time means more ghosts. We can undo consumption and Peregrin owns an entire small nation's worth of ghosts- if we can get the Heroes after us to stop bothering us for just a day or two, then we can literally devour an entire city, rake in a few thousand TW entirely independent of the whole generation-over-time chart, and use that to become powerful and sustainable.

Generating handfuls of TW in a day seems impressive given how starved we are for resources right now, but if we can just get a little stronger and buy a little more time, we have vast troves of power at our fingertips which we can access far more quickly than we could possibly generate energy on our own. We just have to convince the player base to go after it.
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No. 66497 ID: 5d121c

>>66457
>>66456

I think paradox is perfect for a stealth soul. The unfriendliness of use might be a problem, but it would be our deva in the first place, so we should be able to get by.

And as a concept itself, I can hardly think of anything better to hide behind, for someone like a titan that is actually strong enough to do it. People look at logical explanations and tend to miss or even outright ignore things that are paradoxical.

Also, the thing is, paradox wouldn't be that great under kairosa, simply because it would be just as valid under wordblood. Even more valid, you could say, verbal paradoxes are much more common than temporal ones.
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No. 66498 ID: 4a328b

I don't like the "eat-all-the-ghosts" idea at all. Firstly, someone's bound to escape or come away with a bad impression and the next thing you know we've got a reputation all over Creation as a soul-eating monster etc. etc. Secondly, I don't like the idea of powering up that quickly--I want to level up somewhat sedately, at least compared to what you're proposing, with time to adjust to new abilities and new devas, rather than getting swamped with new souls and abilities all at once. Most of the fun's in the journey, not the destination! Thirdly, I don't like the idea of such a sudden shift in personality that this sort of thing would seem to require Saulanna to undergo--right now she's fretting over eating slaver's souls and you want her to eat whole towns of probably mostly law-abiding ghosts? I could go for hunting down other nasty sorts of ghosts that these two knew of, but I doubt we'd find more than one or two, and it would likely take a while. Plus, I find "hunting down criminal ghosts" more narratively appealing than "devour peasant ghosts for massive power"
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No. 66499 ID: 5d121c

>>66494
There's nothing forcing the use of the system in a mechanical word for word sense. I'm sure it could work well.
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No. 66500 ID: b978d0

A few points I'd like to make regarding current discussions:

Exponential growth has an inherent risk that seems to be getting overlooked. In a void, it's the most logical course by far. Saulanna does not exist in a void though, but rather an existence that is populated by a large number of other beings. While the majority are of lower power level, there are a number that are well above our power level, some of which are observing us now.
The main concern would be if we are observed as growing at an exponential rate could set off warning bells of the type that are usually linked to the cornered animal variety of reflexive reactions. Even worse if we're accomplishing this by becoming some sort of ghost devouring monster. The usual reaction to a potential threat that's gaining on you quickly is to curbstomp it into submission before it overtakes you and becomes an actual threat.
Also remember that while we know we can eventually unconsume souls, others do not know about this and will likely not take our word for it. It's kind of like eating someones baby, and then telling them you'll give the kid back later, good as new. Even if it's theoretically possible in this setting, I wouldn't want to risk it when the being claiming such an ability is more likely to just be scamming me...

The main argument I'm seeing is that we gun for the top tier, aiming to be sufficiently powerful to be able to evade/endure/rebuff any attacks that should be thrown at us. Given Wordblood's history though, I think this is a false assumption. There is no tier of power high enough that one becomes more powerful than the combined might of those lesser than you. We'd literally have to become more powerful than the combined might of all the titans, and that's assuming we even last long enough to hit that kind of a peak. Even the bigest fish in this pond need to take care after all.

On a more emotional note, even the balanced plan that's been put forth will still likely leave a bad taste in Wordbloods mouth. He's already feeling a bit neglected, and having him play 2nd fiddle in a purely logic based maximization equation won't help. Sure he's intelligent enough to see the logical benefits, but he's also a living being possessing more diverse wants and needs than purely rational though encompasses. A bitter pill is still bitter, no matter the benefits of swallowing it.


I'm also noting that there seems to be a common thread of flagging others of sufficient power to challenge us as enemies (unless they're under our control in some way). I get the impression that this isn't really how they're actually being presented. They're more unknowns, with potential to go either way. Hell, they're not even mutually exclusive either.
Everyone we have met, and will meet, has their own agendas after all. That's just the definition of being autonomous. While we'll need to compromise to get along, I'd much rather be doing that to make friends and allies than aim for "indomitable ruler of all things", compromise only where forced, and end up making enemies of mostly everyone. If we want to see a replay of the titan wars then all we need to do is upgrade Kairosa so that she can lick the lunar exaltation without having her sanity unseated.
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No. 66501 ID: c0536c
File 135905974255.png - (72.84KB , 300x400 , kairosasayshi.png )
66501

"Hey! Hi. Wordblood told me how to get in here. So, I know I said I'd talk to you all about it when it came up, but since you've got all this math coming up in here with long term planning, I thought I should come in and do some explaining!"

"So, basically, giving it to you straight, I have an upper limit on how much I can make you. I can't self-generate more Will per day than my mistress has Lord devas. I think the Hero Soul counts in this case. So that's possibly three, probably four. Now, that's the base rate, so my time-squeezing power and the bonus for planned production both stack on top of that, so that's a max of twelve or sixteen a day depending on if the Hero Soul counts. That's a lot, but I can't get any higher than that without more devas! More Lords can raise it by one, and I think that once I get my own Noble devas the limit will come off entirely, or at least go up to some insane high thing, but that's kind of a long way away. Anyway, sorry, but we won't be going totally crazy that quick. Not without some adventure, anyway. Glad you're thinking about me, though!"

"Oh! And one more thing. The "per-day" marker, just in case you haven't assumed it already, is based on time in the world of the living! Like, the cycle of the stars and the sun and that. Hanging out in places where time is weird will screw it up! Ok? I think that's everything. Ta!!"

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No. 66502 ID: 79ac0d

Why hello there! Who's the cutest little feeder soul? Who's the cutest little feeder soul? You are! You are!
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No. 66504 ID: a28731

>>66501
Thanks for clarifying.

I noticed you said that +1 level from time compression AND +1 from preplanning together raise it from 4 to 16 a day (or 3 to 12). What comes in between them than? (since those are 2 level increases). That also shows an inflection point in the graph with diminishing returns raising it past 4TW (although still high enough to justify).

This scraps the 1TW/4 minutes plan at a mere 60TW. Still 16/day (+4 per lordly deva we create) is a very decent chunk of change and we are best off reaching that cap ASAP.

The main issue is soul consumption, it was an epic level argument on the consumption of a pair of soul steel slavers.
I am all for just eating ghosts but its such a problem for people that we want to set up production as an ALTERNATIVE so we never have to eat a ghost again. If we don't spend enough to bring up production to 1/day now then I predict we will have to eat more ghosts.

Anyways. With the 16/day cap this plan
>>66478
Is still viable. Just at L5 rate of growth slows down.

>>66496
We chose to go ahead and make arguments declaring her boss pure evil. We could have made different arguments and statements that would have resulted in entirely different discussions and or debate or argument.
We could not back out without conceding the points that we raised, but we didn't have to raise those points claiming he is pure evil for evil's sake. (and her victory was merely that we consider that he isn't pure evil, we can still consider him a little evil, or neutral... we haven't even argued that he might not be evil at all yet).

Anyways, setting up a whole worldful of devas, including nobles and commoners seems like it would take at least thousands of TW.
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No. 66505 ID: a28731

>>66502
Isn't she just? :)
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No. 66506 ID: cee89f

>>66491
I was being sarcastic -_- I was pointing out that you were demonizing the 'give them their last words' side... in a post that was trying to say 'you shouldn't have been demonizing us'.

And to be perfectly frank, the 'make it quick, fearless and painless' argument rings hollow to me, simply because there are also many people claiming that it isn't an issue at all and we should omnomnom because we're a titan and shouldn't give a damn.

>Long term power vs Short term survival
My vote still goes to short term - we need to be ready to defend ourselves. While it's true that, so far, our guests' demands have been fairly benign, we have no guarantee they will stay that way. In addition, if we find out that, no, they're not going to be nice about it, by that point it will be too late to do anything without drawing attention to ourselves.

But guys - we don't need to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter anymore,so this debate is... well, fairly pointless.

Kairosa revealed we can go find other criminals these two associated with and eat them for temporary power, then bring them back later. As long as the two heroes don't catch wind of what we're doing.

And frankly, the longer we let them rest, the more likely it'll be that they walk in on us.

Here's what I propose: we find the other guys' criminals, offer them imprisonment for a short period (depending on their crimes and how likely it is the other ghosts will accept them back) Then we take them inside, keep them there, eat them (in the hole Peregrin has us in) and then bring them out later when we have the TW, as generated by Kairosa.

The ghosts serve time for their crimes, we get our power up (both short AND long term), and we don't need to sacrifice anyone's soul to do it. Simple!
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No. 66507 ID: a28731

>>66500
>Still hurt WB feelings
The only place where it actually introduces a big delay is in the SF3 to SF4 step where it adds 2 days to the process, it slightly slows the other steps too but not by much. By prioritizing WB then we add another 3 days total (to the already inefficient "balanced" approach) to reach 8 days.

The exact specifics of rewriting said balanced plan so WB never has a lower SF then kei (rather then lagging 1 SF behind temporarily).

Spend 8TW raising everyone's SF to 3 and efficiency to L3. We now gain 1TW a day.
Spent 3TW raising Saulanna to SF4.
(5TW remain)
24 hours later 6TW to raise Kei and WB to SF4.
3 days later spend 3TW raising efficiency to L4. Now gain 4TW a day.
24 hours later saulana to SF5
48 hours later both kei and WB to SF5
24 hours later efficiency to L5. Gain is now ?TW a day (somewhere between 3 and 16TW).
about a day later its SF6 for everyone and we max out at 16TW/day.

~8 days to max out production.
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No. 66508 ID: a28731

>>66506
>Long term power vs Short term survival
>My vote still goes to short term
Here is the thing, its not a short term vs long term. Its eating more ghosts vs not eating anymore ghosts.

Even if you ignore the timescale (since when is "in 3 days vs tomorrow" long term?); so completing ignoring that bit about the timescale involved...

if we neglect upgrading kei now (which is gonna be mean to her!) we get a very small improvement in tomorrow's arguments in exchange for NOT having any reasonable income. This means that the only means to ever get one is either:
A. Wait for a whole month (during which saulanna invests 5motes permanently in TW production) for kei to generate the 4TW (preassigned usage) needed for her to upgrade herself. During said month not receive or use a single TW for anything.
B. Eat more ghosts.

Waiting a month is not plausible. So its really down to eating more ghosts.
If waiting a month was plausible then this could be argued as a short v long term thing. But if it isn't then it becomes a "eat more ghosts or assign a SMALL PORTION of our TW to upgrading economy while managing one more day with "merely" upgrading SF".

And if we are gonna eat more ghosts we might as well do it now in which case the whole thing becomes moot.
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No. 66510 ID: b978d0

>>66508
I do feel that it bears repeating that Kairosa said "The "per-day" marker, just in case you haven't assumed it already, is based on time in the world of the living! Like, the cycle of the stars and the sun and that. Hanging out in places where time is weird will screw it up! Ok?"

As such, how long exactly will it be before a given day worth of real time actually passes. The answer to that currently is that only the Dragons Shadow will actually know as it's up to his whim. As we've currently been observing slower than normal progression of time (having gotten a nights rest and such, yet it's still night time), it could effectively be an eternity before we passively generate any TW at all should we remain in this shadow land. So, at least for now, there is a tangible difference between the short game and the long game.

Maybe, once she's powerful enough, Kairosa will be able to enforce normal passage of time while in shadow lands, but that time isn't now. And that's ignoring the problem of stepping on toes by enforcing our will in that manner...
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No. 66511 ID: 5d121c

Guys, guys! How about we make our inner world hospitable to life and invite Peregrin and Luna in for a nice cup of coffee?
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No. 66512 ID: 5d121c

>>66508
>Its eating more ghosts vs not eating anymore ghosts.

No, it isn't. Kairosa explicitly said that we can recreate them completely. Except for the three first ghosts we ever ate, all of them are fine.
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No. 66513 ID: cee89f

>>66508
>Here is the thing, its not a short term vs long term. Its eating more ghosts vs not eating anymore ghosts.

... That's not how an argument works. The two points in the 'vs' category are supposed to be positives of each that the other does not have - basically, the reason each person is going for their argument.

Granted, you're right that mine is wrong, but frankly so is yours. Really it should be: 'Surviving social stuff vs No more ghost omnomnom' or something. The reason I put short vs long is because, quite frankly, your plan COMPLETELY ignores the short term in exchange for not eating any more ghosts. That's a long-term benefit since this social situation will most likely be resolved one way or another by morning, before Kai can give us a full day's TW.

>(which is gonna be mean to her!)
Moot. Not upgrading Wordblood is also going to hurt HIS feelings, and unlike Kai, WB has already expressed discontent with the way we've been treating him.

>Waiting a month is not plausible. So its really down to eating more ghosts.

Except now we know that this isn't as big of a moral issue since we can now pull the ghosts out of our bodies - at worst, it's kidnapping, and frankly we're going to be hunting down criminals, so it's more realistically like making Saulanna's body a prison.

So I'm still putting my vote to short-term survival, because maintaining our independence is important, we can get more TW once we go into the village, and we have no way of guaranteeing that the Lunars and Akatrina will be as nice in round 2.

Also, didn't Peregrin say he could bring us to the main part of the village if need be? We could go there and hunt the criminals that the slaver and bounty hunter's histories will reveal to us.
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No. 66517 ID: 370c40

Upgrading everyone to 3 already gets us to 1 a day TW production if we tie up the power and pick what we are spending on ahead of time. So we really should do that, then focus on stuff that will actually get us through the day unbrainwashed. Because Exalts can brainwash people! That's a thing they can do! Even other Exalted.
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No. 66519 ID: a28731

>>66512
>No, it isn't. Kairosa explicitly said that we can recreate them completely
Which is what I suggested and not a single person agreed with before you (here in the questdis, did you actually post such a suggestion in main quest?)

>quite frankly, your plan COMPLETELY ignores the short term
Not so, it has saullana be SF4, kei SF4, and WB SF3 before we talk to anyone else.
Those are all boosts to social combat. Furthermore, so far the only social combat suggestions made were 1 point into beauty and 1 point into a WB ability. Which, while an improvement, will not in any way guarantee victory. Hence why I am suggesting we use deception to postpone the issues (aka, rather then "I am not coming with you ever!" say "I will gladly come, just give me a month to set my affairs here in order". etc)

>Except now we know that this isn't as big of a moral issue since we can now pull the ghosts out of our bodies
Yet even knowing that, there was a huge moral shitstorm over eating the souls of soul steel slavers.

>>66517
That is a plausible scenario; it would be a bit tight though but with 1/day rather then 1/week we are much better situated.
It will still take 9 days for the next upgrade (3TW saulanna SF4, 3TW Kei SF4, and 3TW Efficiency 4).
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No. 66520 ID: 370c40

>>66519
You know, Depth of Comprehension can get us Titan's Will too, if we eat libraries. We might consider investing in it early, so that when we find some libraries to eat we get good rewards out of it. Efficiency of and Ease of Consumption we should probably invest in just because even if we morally don't want to eat any but the worst, sometimes we might end up facing spiritual enemies, and those both help in that. Gods, demons, elementals, all are spiritual types. Would be reluctant to eat a demon though, not sure what eating one of them might do to us.

We can also gain power from prayer, but I can't remember if ghosts can count towards cults or not. We might need to find actual living mortals for that to apply. But Jukashi said we could gain divine powers appropriate to whatever we were being worshipped as, which could be really useful.

Honestly tempted to just dump a ton of TW into Wordblood's abilities, though, and see if that works to get us through the day. Like SF 3 for everyone(6 TW), then level 2 of World Reading and True Speech(6 TW), then level 3 of World Reading(3 TW), and 1 point of Beauty (1 TW). Just read everyone's motivations or whatever and abuse the information to use their own goals against them.
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No. 66522 ID: 370c40

Okay so, for the moment, here's how I'm thinking to spend our TW.
SF 3 for everyone (6 TW)
Wordblood's World Reading 0>2 (3 TW)
Wordblood's True Speech 0>2 (3 TW)
Kairosa's Efficiency of Consumption 0>1 (1 TW)
Kairosa's Ease of Consumption 0>1 (1 TW)
Beauty +1 (1 TW)

One Titan's Will left over, not sure whether that should even be spent. In a pinch we can use it to come up with a power word or something.

We would be producing one TW a day with power tied up and the use decided ahead of time, and we would be in a better position for ghost hunting with improved ease and efficiency, so when we locate those other criminals they would provide more and be easier to consume.

The point of Beauty makes up for the lack of SF 4 in social combat, and we don't become super suspicious when Akatrina uses a basic sensory charm and realizes we gained a point of soul force in a day. True Speech gives us a method of social attack, while World Reading gives us all kinds of information that can be used to make the right attacks to hit vulnerabilities or to defend ourselves by deflecting towards something they are more interested in.
>>
No. 66525 ID: 9db85e

>>66520
>>66522
I think both of these are reasonable suggestions.

Thought I would like another point in Depth of Comprehension too. If we have to forgo beauty for that, I'd be willing to go for it, even if there's no immediate payoff.
>>
No. 66526 ID: f09752

I think I need to clarify a few minor number points as well.

Kairosa has Efficiency of Consumption 2 and Ease of Consumption 2, because they were copied from Wordblood. Her "zero was higher" means that her zero is Wordblood's one, so by the old standard, Kairosa has rank 3 and gives 3 extra TW when she eats a soul and can do it more easily.

Kairosa also got two ranks for free in her Will Generation, since Wordblood's eating abilities had been maxed out, but it's a separate ability from the other two.
>>
No. 66527 ID: 370c40

>>66526
Thanks, Jukashi! Let's be friends forever!
>>
No. 66529 ID: cee89f

>Which is what I suggested and not a single person agreed with before you (here in the questdis, did you actually post such a suggestion in main quest?)

I already post too much in the quest thread, but as I recall, you were speculating on the possibility - Kairosa just confirmed it for us.

>Those are all boosts to social combat.
Okay, but SF boosts will only matter for Saulanna and don't address the main problem: a higher soul force gives us a higher WP pool, but Akatrina can utterly obliterate our WP pool in a few arguments, or ignore it entirely and give us things like contempt.

>Furthermore, so far the only social combat suggestions made were 1 point into beauty and 1 point into a WB ability. Which, while an improvement, will not in any way guarantee victory.

Our victory wouldn't be guaranteed in a month, either. An experienced Hero in a diplomat class is beatable in social combat but it's not something you can go at half-hearted, especially for a (for lack of a better term) Baby Titan.

What IS guaranteed is that we can't sit idle here for long. The Moon Heroes were discussing kidnapping us for our own safety and have no reason to believe they're wrong... Heck, if DS knows what we are, they're probably even more right to try than they know.

>Hence why I am suggesting we use deception to postpone the issues (aka, rather then "I am not coming with you ever!" say "I will gladly come, just give me a month to set my affairs here in order". etc)

I sincerely doubt we'll be able to convince either Akatrina OR the Moon Heroes to wait that long. As far as the latter is concerned, we're in enemy territory and in danger every second we remain here. As far as the former is concerned (assuming the worst) we need to go before the sun rises, which is NOT going to take a month.

Both parties have at least one person capable in social situations and every hero in the Shadowland is more experienced than we are.

Also, neither party has any reason to think we'd have affairs here that would require a month to rectify.

>Yet even knowing that, there was a huge moral shitstorm over eating the souls of soul steel slavers.

Again, this was only confirmed AFTER the "moral shitstorm"

>>66522
True Speech, if i remember correctly, is the language of absolute truth. Using something like that would advertise very blatantly that we are a titan - or at least be a giant warning sign that we are, like raising our SF in one day would be
>>
No. 66530 ID: f2c20c

>>66526
That gives me an idea. Kairosa said she could eventually reverse TW spent on upgrades. Could that be used to reverse Wordblood's now redundant feeding upgrades?
>>
No. 66531 ID: f09752

>>66530

Kairosa can only undo things that were done after she came into existence.

Plus, currently, Kairosa can only reclaim 1 TW from previous expenditures. If said expenditure cost more than 1, it becomes dormant and unusable until that TW is spent on it again. You can upgrade her Undoing ability to let her reclaim more TW and so completely undo larger upgrades, but of course, that costs TW as well.
>>
No. 66533 ID: 2eac65

I think we should definitely boost our social abilities, but we currently don't know too many ways of doing that. So why don't we try and come up with different Titanic powers for Wordblood?
>>
No. 66547 ID: 11e046

The ghost eating question is frankly a non-argument. There is no moral reason not to eat the ghosts. These are still criminals without whom the world is better off. It's merely a form of capital punishment which lets them contribute something positive through their demise.

As for resource expenditure, I would very much like to focus on the passive TW generation, but I fear we can't afford to do anything other than power ourselves up for imminent confrontation, considering that we're substantially outclassed and, short of going on the run which would be hugely disadvantageous, we have no way to avoid it.

>>66512
She said we could, but also confirmed that it will rarely if ever be even remotely wise.
>>
No. 66548 ID: a28731

>>66531
How much TW would be needed to upgrade her undoing abilities? because that would let us have our cake and eat it too. We could simply buy that one upgrade and then invest fully in social combat, and after we resolve the issue undo the social kombat invest and fully shaunt all of it into energy production. reinvesting in energy production until we max out and then reacquire the social kombat upgrades.

>a higher soul force gives us a higher WP pool, but Akatrina can utterly obliterate our WP pool in a few arguments
Levels of SF also unlock other boosts. as I understand it we get a free +1 to a random special ability on most SF level as well as unlock higher tier special abilities we have no access to at lower SF.

The skills people have thus far specifically suggested upgrading for WB for the purpose of social kombat are IIRC the skills he explicitly told us he would get at a higher level. I am not sure if he meant he would get the free level 1 with the SF upgrade (which means we CAN manually spend TW to get them earlier) or if he meant that he cannot use them until higher SF levels (which means we can't even spend TW on them until he is at a higher level).

>Ability to detect SF
This is not exactly exalted, but in regular exalted there are charms that let one do that, those are ACTIVE abilities they must trigger by spending motes...
However akatriana probably has some custom passive ability (maybe a gift from dragon shadow?) as khan stated as such and she very heavily insinuated things.

Besides all that, when they met us our SF was 3, it is now 2... losing SF is suspicious as hell and should be rectified.

>I sincerely doubt we'll be able to convince either Akatrina OR the Moon Heroes to wait that long.
It is still an easier sell then convincing them to let us go without ever coming with them.

But you raise a valid point, both are difficult propositions. So what are we actually going to do?...

Can we actually be in 2 places at once? what if we forge extra avatar bodies? we could have one go with akatrina, one stay with khan, and one go with the lunars.
>>
No. 66549 ID: 3bad4c

MrTT, what happened to only posting at most twice between updates in the main thread? Are you too good for rules?
>>
No. 66552 ID: 370c40

So, after being corrected by MrTT, we don't actually have enough Titan's Will to get higher than 1 a day at the moment, after examining things more closely. Getting Will Generation to 4 requires more TW than we actually have. And also for us to completely ignore upgrading Wordblood and anything other than Kai's SF, Saulanna's SF, and Will Generation.
>>
No. 66553 ID: a28731

>>66549
1. I forgot there was such a rule.
2. Those are all short fact corrections (with no arguments about what to do) about misinformation which I was going to later delete from quest and move to questdis
>>
No. 66554 ID: a28731

mmm. I seem to have included a bit of non fact there with the "there will be more TW later"
My apologies.

Anyways, they have been up long enough and since apparently there is an actual rule against posting more then 2 times between updates, I will immediately move the rest here too:
Previously /quest/487359:
>>/quest/487340
Some factual corrections:
1. I was only ever talking about upgrading Kei's efficiency not wordblood's.
2. Her efficiency affects both consumption AND generation not just consumption.
3. Her efficiency is currently at level 2 not level 0. During her creation we copied over WB's efficiency boosts.

>>/quest/487342
>there will be more TW later
Have you not noticed how hard it was to eat a pair of soul steel slavers?

Previously /quest/487649:
>>/quest/487530
efficiency level 5 gives 1TW/day.
3 or 4TW/day is efficiency level 6.

Previously /quest/487671:
>>/quest/487660
SF doesn't add to abilities like that (I asked). High SF grants SOME bonus but that bonus is not equal to the SF value.
Furthermore generation of TW is one of the abilities specifically excluded from that. So for it SF only acts a cap on how high it can go, but does not contribute to it.

its currently level 2, he suggested raising it by 1 to 3, and using predetermination (+1) and 5 mote allocation (+1) for a total of effective level 5.

>>/quest/487661
... We already have power word: "stop". In fact it is the ONLY power word we have.
>>
No. 66555 ID: d0880d

>>66554
Apparently an actual rule? It was declared in three updates straight, man.
>>
No. 66557 ID: a28731

>>66552
>Getting Will Generation to 4 requires more TW than we actually have.
How so? We have 16 and it should only cost 15.
2TW Saulanna SF2 to 3
2TW Kairosa SF2 to 3
2TW efficiency 2 to 3
3TW Saulanna SF3 to 4
3TW Kairosa SF3 to 4
3TW efficiency 3 to 4
Then add +2 levels from predetermination and mote locking for level 6 total.

Although I might be a bit confused about the costs.
Apparently raising SF costs as much as its current value.
But raising a body stat like beauty or agility from 2 to 3 costs only 1 TW... (maybe we get a +1 from being a lunar so its only raising the base stat from 1 to 2?)

Also some people have put down it costing 2TW to raise SF from 2 to 3, and yet at the same post put down that to raise an ability like efficiency from 2 to 3 costs 3TW.
>>
No. 66558 ID: 370c40

>>66556
It's worth noting that SF 2 is basically the zero of soul force. Lower than SF 2 is where mortals with no magical ability whatsoever are. So it's not really the same as an ability at 2. Basically the equivalent of raising an ability from 0 to 1 is SF 2 to 3. And it costs 1 less TW to raise an ability from 0 to 1 than it does to raise SF from 2 to 3.

The costs for raising abilities are 0>1(1 TW), 1>2(2 TW) etc., while Soul Force starts at 2 TW for 2 to 3, then 3 TW for 3 to 4, etc.
>>
No. 66567 ID: a28731

>>66558
where did jukashi say that?
and what about raising body stats costing 1TW less then even raising SF?
>>
No. 66578 ID: 370c40

>>66567
Efficiency of Consumption 1 cost 1 TW. Ease of Consumption 1 cost 1 TW. Efficiency of Consumption 2 cost 2 TW. Jukashi didn't have to say it. And the thing about physical stats was stated in the second thread

>>/questarch/409525
>>
No. 66585 ID: a28731

>>66578
Oh right, I forgot that. Thank you.

So to sum it up, upgrading prices are (where CL = current level):
Body: CL - 1
Mind: ?
Persuasion: ?
SF: CL
Abilities: CL+1

@Jukashi: Could you please verify these costs and provide the missing ones?
>>
No. 66587 ID: 7ebb49

>>66584

Saulanna's physical body can be altered using TW, which is represented as buying up Might, Agility, Toughness or Beauty. The other Talents, dickery and inspiration and all the mental ones, can't be bought up, since they're measures of Saulanna's mind and personality. It just costs a flat 1TW for any upgrade and can only go up to 5, for now.

Moon or Titan abilities usually cost just 1, but those abilities which can scale up (which is not actually the majority) cost an amount equal to the level you're going to get (CL+1). More abilities, and upgrades to existing abilities if they have upgrades, become available as Soul Force levels up.

Soul Force upgrades cost TW equal to what you already have (CL). As said, Soul Force 1 is effectively zero because if you had less you'd be dead.
>>
No. 66601 ID: a28731

>>66587
Thank you for clarifying.
>>
No. 66619 ID: 5d121c
File 135932632091.jpg - (3.63KB , 200x252 , default.jpg )
66619

Think it would be possible to get another discussion thread? The size of this one explodes my browser.
>>
No. 66630 ID: a28731

>>66587
Amusingly, every single plan proposed thus far (including all of mine) with the exception of the "raise SF to 3 for all" has had some error.
Either using wrong figures for TW costs, or assuming all titan/moon abilities scale rather then a select few.
>>
No. 66634 ID: 4a328b

I wonder if "how to use make-up" is one of those things Luna'd be willing to tell us if we prayed to her.
>>
No. 66635 ID: 5d121c

>>66634
That's a pretty awesome idea. We should pray to Luna and ask for help with this.
>>
No. 66636 ID: 908c2d

>>66635
I dunno. Talking to Luna might have some consequences.

Like "wow, you've certainly gotten a lot of ass kicking done in my name! But, how exactly did you do that stop thing? Or eat those ghosts? Those aren't powers I normally hand out!".
>>
No. 66637 ID: f2c20c

>>66636
She wouldn't know about that. Gods aren't omniscient in this setting- they only pay attention to certain things.
>>
No. 66638 ID: 908c2d

>>66637
Maybe she's not omniscient, but might she not have been keeping a close-ish eye on her new hero she was kind of hand-holding?

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Luna might have observed our activities. (I mean, c'mon, what's the point of sending some out to kick ass in your name if you don't get to enjoy the show? :V )
>>
No. 66639 ID: b6edd6

Hmm, the zone for the Hero's Soul has grown significantly along with the other zones...
>>
No. 66641 ID: 695191

>>66636
She probably wouldn't have noticed events that happened earlier, but just looking at her for a moment is a problem if she can detect the sudden increase in power or Peregrins oath: "Wait ...how did you manage THAT already? Or at all?"
>>
No. 66643 ID: f2c20c

>>66639
It's very tightly linked with Saulanna so it probably shares her Soul Force.
>>
No. 66647 ID: 5d121c

>>66638
That's irrelevant. If he was observing us she knows anyway, if she didn't then he doesn't know.
>>
No. 66651 ID: 370c40

I'm really reluctant to contact Luna without a Stealth deva. I mean maybe she won't kill us if she finds out we are a Titan, but that's just it...MAYBE she won't kill us. That's not really the sort of thing I like to gamble with. And at the moment we are sort of so weak that killing us isn't a big deal, unlike the Titans killed in the war, who became big bad Neverborn.
>>
No. 66653 ID: cee89f

>>66635
Yes! Ask Luna for make-up tips!

>>66636
You don't know much about how the Gods in Exalted spend their free time, do you? =p
>>
No. 66654 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/488349

I would just like to point out that it WOULDN'T be dangerous - Luna (apparently) likes us at least enough to give us help while there's a full moon, and Wordblood and Kairosa can hide themselves from her.

... Besides, weren't we planning on telling Luna what we are when we got out of the Shadowland?
>>
No. 66656 ID: 908c2d

>>66654
>I would just like to point out that it WOULDN'T be dangerous
There is a risk of exposure if we make contact with Luna. That is a danger, and no matter how well we might plan or prepare to try and hide from that (which, we actually haven't done at all) that risk does not completely go away. Therefore there will always be a danger in contacting Luna, and we should remain cautious.

Frankly, contacting her without a story prepared for the odd things she may have noticed her new champion doing, without exploring what we need to do to conceal our devas / titanic nature, and from inside our time stopped inner titan-world just seems crazy. Especially for something as superfluous as makeup.

>Besides, weren't we planning on telling Luna what we are when we got out of the Shadowland?
One of many ideas that has been floated. Like a lot of things, there's hardly consensus around the idea. I, for one, don't believe we want to be leaving the shadow land any time soon. So any confession or reveal to Luna would wait until we're considerably stronger, and have proved ourself more.
>>
No. 66658 ID: bf54a8

we need a 100% certainty of one of two things, first that luna doesn't find out if we talk to her, or two, she wont tell the sun.
>>
No. 66659 ID: a28731

Didn't some reliable sources say to us that for all her leniency, luna is loyal enough to report this to the undying sun?

So, if revealing ourselves we need to convince her to actually intercede on our behalf.
>>
No. 66661 ID: a28731

@Jukashi: I would be very upset with you (:P) if raising her beauty manifested itself as bigger boobs... This isn't dnd's charisma after all!

(I am semi joking, serious about her not needing big boobs, joking about the making demands)
>>
No. 66665 ID: 5d121c

>>/quest/488414

Well, two things.

If she's sympathetic to us, why would Luna definitely tell the UCS about us if she (who is better informed about this) had reason to believe it would end catastrophically for us?

Also, why would the UCS hurt us? He's the god of infinite righteousness, isn't he? Infinite compassion, temperance etc. He did what he had to in the primordial war, but it's not like he made enemies of all Titans as some kind of absolute point. The point of the war was to give everything under the rule of Titans freedom from their tyranny, not genocide just because. He made allies of Titans the two cases where it was possible.

So really. I get that it might be a good idea to wait until we're personally stronger before risking revealing ourselves, but this massive aversion to even talking to any god (who couldn't figure out what we are from just that anyway) is completely silly.
>>
No. 66668 ID: 908c2d

>>66665
Personally, I find this blasé ignoring the risks silly.

No, there's no guarantee talking to Luna will get us found out. But there's a chance we'll slip up or we will be found out you're ignoring. And while we cannot be sure the gods discovering us will lead to bad things™, we have good reason to be wary of putting a baby titan at their mercy. And it's naive to just assume they'll treat us well.

I'm not completely opposed to talking to Luna, put the risk/reward ratio for makeup tips is preposterous. We're taking a real risk for little to no gain.
>>
No. 66669 ID: f2c20c

>>66665
She will definitely tell the UCS because they are very close. Her loyalty to the UCS is far greater than her loyalty to us.

He wouldn't necessarily condemn us to death immediately, but there would be an interrogation and likely we would be brought up in front of the other Gods.

C'mon. Wordblood covered all this, go read the threads!
>>
No. 66670 ID: 5d121c

>>66668
But there's no risk involved with just talking.
>>
No. 66671 ID: 5d121c

I don't know, I just find this whole super low key try to stay away from everyone thing incredibly boring.

The only people we trust are our slaves for god's sake.

We could talk to luna and try to get a talk with gaia, without exposing ourselves until we're sure. We could go with the lunars and just not get the tattoos when it comes to it - they might think it suspicious but nothing really remarkable.

All we're doing is being the Titan of Hikikomori. I hope we don't get that one as an aspect, but it actually would make sense.
>>
No. 66672 ID: 908c2d

>>66670
>But there's no risk involved with just talking.
Yes. There is.

That is the entirely of the point I am trying to make. There is a risk of being discovered during communication with Luna.

There are any number of ways we could screw up a conversation and let something slip, especially if Luna has been observant, or is interested in why Saulanna was a special case.

Choosing to face a risk is one thing. Pretending it don't exist is another.
>>
No. 66673 ID: a28731

So lets say the gods show great mercy...
They rip out wordblood and kairosa (like what they did to some other titans), leaving saulanna as a mortal.
Not the kind of "mercy" I want to receive.
>>
No. 66674 ID: 370c40

>>66671
We have memories of literally two days. You are being ridiculous. Not wanting to reveal ourselves to the gods who murdered a part of us is a rational fear.
>>
No. 66675 ID: 4a328b

Solution: Ask Wordblood if asking Luna about makeup is a totally rational thing to do, given that she said she'd help us with things we would normally know if we weren't an amnesiac; or if he thinks it's risky to even contact her.
>>
No. 66676 ID: f2c20c

>>66672
No, there isn't.

We already talked to her, when she could see our SOUL. If there was any chance of being discovered then, it would've happened when the quest started!
>>
No. 66678 ID: cee89f

>>66656
>>66672
Allow me to remind you... Wordblood and Kairosa can hide themselves from Luna. It was kind of a big deal in ch.1 that we not talk to Luna until Wordblood had hidden himself sufficiently well. We have talked to Luna before with Wordblood aware, and that was when their powers were much, MUCH weaker. As long as Wordblood and Kairosa do not speak, we are fine.

There's a risk in that she may notice our SF has grown more quickly than usual, but that's not going to scream "Bitch be a titan! KILL HER!!!"

>>66674
If you wanna be technical about it, we've got memories of one night in which time was stretched out.

>>66675
*both of them stare at her* "...Let me get this straight. You have the ability to talk to a goddess that controls THE MOON at any time... and you want to ask her how to apply lip gloss."
"What's lip gloss?"
*faceclaw*

>>66673
That might make us a Neverborn, and the gods know it. I sincerely doubt they want oblivion to come back, or for the Dragon's Shadow to get hold of us. So that doesn't seem likely.

What seems likely to me is they'll force us to keep our power at our current level, or assign a liaison until we prove we're on the level. Maybe our Solar mate.

>>66671
A) Nobody knows where Gaia is, how are we supposed to talk to her?

B) We're staying low key because we are extremely weak atm.

>>66665
"Righteous" does not mean "merciful". Especially in a universe where getting murdered is one of the better fates that you can be shouldered with and the creature that we happen to be is easily one of the most destructive and powerful.
>>
No. 66679 ID: cdc7fd

I don't think Luna detecting Kairosa and Wordblood is as much a problem as her detecting our binding oath on Peregrin or the changes made to the Lunar Exaltation. The latter of the two especially.

>>66678
>What seems likely to me is they'll force us to keep our power at our current level, or assign a liaison until we prove we're on the level. Maybe our Solar mate.

If our Solar Mate is an Abyssal, Infernal, or Red Sun Solar none of those are options for them. Outside of an Elder Solar Mate, which I think is the only situation where we're not completely screwed if found out right now, I think the most likely thing is that we'll get locked in Malfaes with the Spiritual Mutilation that comes with that, be Spiritually Mutilated and left mortal(or dead), or outright killed before we're powerful enough to cause World Shattering damage in our death throes.
>>
No. 66680 ID: 908c2d

>Devas can hide themselves
>Luna would have already detected Wordblood
Magical detection isn't my primary concern (although, it is a concern. We have more devas, and they've gotten bigger since Worldblood last said he could hide himself. All that shiny new soulforce might be something Luna can ping).

I'm more worried that it could come out in regular dialog. If Luna has been paying attention to our actions at all (and it's not unreasonable to assume she has. If we wanna reference thread 1, our last conversation with Luna sure made it sound like she had watched our fight with the zombie ghost) she might have questions we don't have answers for. We could fail on cross examination.

I mean, this is pretty elementary here. We have information we don't wish to be communicated. Communication involves the exchange of information. Luna is (among other things) a god of trickery. It's not inconceivable she might get something out of us!

Look, feel free to argue that the risks are small, or acceptable (...if you really believe the risk/reward of angry gods vs makeup tips balances). But please stop trying to argue there's no risk at all.
>>
No. 66682 ID: 1da170

So, first social order of business when we get out of internal, seducing Akatrina.

Who's with me?
>>
No. 66683 ID: 5d121c

>>66680
That's silly. Our social and mental stats are all high. This would fall either under either Dickery or Intuition, I think.

>Someone with Wits(Intuition) 3 is exceedingly clever and almost never loses her cool.
>Someone with Manipulation (Dickery) 3 has a clever tongue and can convince most people to trust her.

We have 3 points in Dickery and 4 points in Intuition.

We also have a massive amount of different abilities from the ghosts we ate and from our two devas.

We aren't going to blurt out something stupid, basically.
>>
No. 66684 ID: 1da170

>>66683
-Implying that the dot trait explanations in the Exalted book translate to Lunar Quest
-Implying that the dot trait explanations in the Exalted book translate to anything even in their own system

I think there might be a slight problem with your argument!
>>
No. 66686 ID: 5d121c

>>66684
It does, more or less. And even if it didn't exactly, please show me which mental or social stats are lower than 3.

I think the problem is on your side. The biggest being that you're just looking for excuses to be contrary instead of discussing the actual point.
>>
No. 66687 ID: 908c2d

>>66683

...because our mental stats made our performance in front of Ask, Garm, and Kat so damn perfect. We didn't lose our cool or nothing! And everyone we've met trusts us!

Look, I've made my point. If people are going to stubbornly refuse to admit Luna outfoxing us is worth worrying about (or even possible) I'm not going to keep banging my head on this brick wall.
>>
No. 66688 ID: c6319f

I seem to remember Wordblood saying something about remaining undetected becoming more difficult as he gains in power because he'd be, you know, bigger.

And thinking we can out social-fu Luna is a bit... optimistic, even for something as simple as NOT messing up and revealing something we shouldn't. Which could be a great many things as Luna has a much greater knowledge base with which to correlate any hint we happen to drop. We could drop a clue without ever knowing that we did so, simply because her knowledge and experience is great enough for it to act as a clue.

I'd like to have the stealth Deva, a good-er reputation, or it be an emergency before praying to Luna again. Also, I half believe she's already aware of our status and finds it more amusing than threatening. But that doesn't mean the risk is worth it.
>>
No. 66691 ID: 3887da

>>66686
Nah.

But if you want to get into it, we are talking about an Incarna here. This is someone who has had occasion to trick the very cosmic principle of trickery, while we are (even if we take the asinine dot trait descriptions as gospel) ONLY quite clever.

She could play us like a fiddle if she wanted to, and if she happened to find it amusing. We've lost our cool against much, much smaller beings. Like, I dunno, basically every antagonist we've faced so far. We tried to keep our cool against Peregrin in Ch1 and ended up going all REND AND TEAR against him. He's a magical stage magician.

Consider that.
>>
No. 66693 ID: cee89f

>>66691
In fairness to Peregrin, he now is an ULTRA magical stage magician.

>>66688
Yeeeeeah, but he hasn't really grown all THAT much =/ I got the impression that that level of power was a long way off, like our Noble devas.

>>66687
If she IS outfoxing us there is absolutely nothing to worry about because we can do two things about it: jack and squat.

(also, as someone who had an opinion in this thread that he stubbornly refused to let go because i thought others were being blind and stubborn, here's a piece of advice: getting angry over it is not worth it.)

>>66682
.....
Just... no.

>>66680
A) Conversations where all you do is ask questions and get them answered don't work like that, we'd have to at least hold a proper conversation for her to trick information out of us the mundane way. Luna's answered our questions when we asked but didn't hold long conversations.

B) Considering that we were planning (or at least considering) on revealing our nature to her once we got out of the shadowland, I'd say the risk of discovery isn't really a factor... unless you want to argue Luna will try to kill us if she discovers what we are before we tell her?

Luna doesn't strike me as the type to reveal she knows such information if she tricks it out of us - I find it more likely that she'll continue acting as she has up to our face, while getting something else ready behind the scenes... buuut we were going to tell her anyway in an effort to gain a modicrum of trust. So even if she DOES learn it from this conversation it wouldn't change anything: we'd still reveal who we are and hopefully gain her trust BEFORE she tries anything.

Wasn't one of the reasons we were getting a stealth soul to ensure that if we need to go into hiding from her and/or Sol, we could?

>>66679
*shrug* "Our solar mate was" just an idea, not the point. A liaison could just as easily be a different Solar.

>I don't think Luna detecting Kairosa and Wordblood is as much a problem as her detecting our binding oath on Peregrin or the changes made to the Lunar Exaltation. The latter of the two especially.

... Okay, I honestly hadn't considered that (though I'm inclined to say that since the oath was a true name thing rather than a spell, there's nothing for her to detect) but the Lunar Exaltation is SUPPOSED to change - that's the whole reason it's changing at all, remember?
>>
No. 66698 ID: 695191

There is one other thing we can do, although I can't say its a good idea just yet: raise Saulannas soul force by two levels, and make our stealth deva. That's only IF it could help us deal with Akatrinas meddling and the Lunars tattoos. Masks might be an ideal element for the latter if it can give us a false skin. That's just a theory, though.
>>
No. 66702 ID: b978d0

I'd say that the risk of discovery by Luna is more of a moot point.

Being a goddess of trickery and such, and given our growth, the next time she pays attention to us will probably be when the racoon is out of the bag on our titanic nature. As such, we have three real options with how to deal with that:

1. Approach her ourselves as a show of good faith.
I would suggest being subtle about things so as to not outright deny her plausible deniability. "I just wanted to let you know I love/revere/respect/<insert approriate positive relational emotion here> you" rather than "I R TITAN, PLS NO KILL ME!!" would allow her to claim that it's just a confused young lunar reaffirming their faith. Maybe ask about ways to avoid the moonsilver tattoos without pissing off the other lunars as our official reason for contacting her.

2. Try to avoid her notice until we're powerful enough or have otherwise proven ourselves.
This could be a valid approach, but would require great care. We'd need to ensure that to casual observation everything looks ok, with no need for closer inspection. Putting too much effort into avoiding her would just result in her checking in on us anyways. And that's assuming that she's not got us in her peripheral vision to begin with. Quite the risky balancing act, but would also distance us from the existing celestial politics a bit and allow us to emerge as a new player rather than someone elses pawn.

3. Don't do anything in particular and let things play out as they will. So long as we continue to not be blatantly obvious with our titanic abilities, this ends up being a bit closer to option 2 than option 1, but otherwise is neither deliberately honest or dishonest about our nature. It'll still be a rocky route for sure, but would likely have less backlash to worry about compared to plans from option 2 getting unravelled. This seems to be a bit too passive of an approach for Saulanna's personality, but may end up being the path taken due to the division in our oppinions.

No matter what route we take on this, there will be risks involved, with Saulanna's existence being one of the chips on the table regardless. That said, I don't think there is a path that exists within the realm of possibilities that does not involve some sort of loss. Allies will need some compromises, enemies will claim some victories, and those greater than us will manipulate events to their favour as they always do.

Personally, I favour proactively approaching Luna along the lines of option 1. The drawback is that we'd effectively be relegating ourselves to the role of one of her pawns, which would end up chafing as we grew more powerful. That said, she's not really the type to micromanage or restrict her minions. Would also open up the potential of becoming more than just a pawn, working to upgrade to apprentice and eventually ally. That would give us a way to integrate into the existing balance of power rather than just popping up as an unvetted new player.

Edit: There's been mention of Saulanna communing with the Lunar exaltation. Given that Wordblood and Kairosa will be their to snap her out of it should it look like it's going south this would be a course of action I would suggest over outright contacting Luna. Would likely also help in integrating the exaltation into our whole a bit better, not to mention that it's the biggest unknown factor in our inner world.
>>
No. 66703 ID: cdc7fd

>>66693
>Considering that we were planning (or at least considering) on revealing our nature to her once we got out of the shadowland, I'd say the risk of discovery isn't really a factor... unless you want to argue Luna will try to kill us if she discovers what we are before we tell her?

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think there's been a rather good tally about that. The last consensus I remember was more along the lines of get stronger and get some good under our belt first.

>*shrug* "Our solar mate was" just an idea, not the point. A liaison could just as easily be a different Solar.
I was saying that if it's not our Solar Mate then I don't think they'd even consider it as enough to keep an eye on a Titan.

>... Okay, I honestly hadn't considered that (though I'm inclined to say that since the oath was a true name thing rather than a spell, there's nothing for her to detect) but the Lunar Exaltation is SUPPOSED to change - that's the whole reason it's changing at all, remember?

The oath is magically binding, so I don't think it's out of line to think it might leave some sort of trace on the two it binds together. And yes, in this situation the changes to the Luanr Exaltation are supposedly part of it's nature. That doesn't mean it's going to be an unnoticeable change though. In fact, I'd say that such a change being something closer to a built-in feature would likely make it easier to detect. It seems to be more evolution as opposed to subtle altering or twisting.
>>
No. 66706 ID: 77cb34

Man.

Why is /quest <i>so bad</i> at keeping secrets?
>>
No. 66717 ID: c6319f

>>66706
Because it only takes one to spill them and some people think that revealing secrets in poorly framed speeches of grandeur and goodwill and the like does anything to mitigate the horrible horrible truths thus revealed. At its core it is a fundamental misunderstanding of social mechanics and a lack of perspective, or rather the inability to approach a situation from their chosen audience's perspective to rationally assess risk.
>>
No. 66730 ID: cee89f

>>66703

>I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think there's been a rather good tally about that. The last consensus I remember was more along the lines of get stronger and get some good under our belt first.

Eh. Could've been. My memory's like a leaky faucet.

>I was saying that if it's not our Solar Mate then I don't think they'd even consider it as enough to keep an eye on a Titan.

The original purpose of the Exalted was to kill the Titans in a WAR. Assigning an Exalted as our liaison is basically required if they're not going to kill us. "Solar Mate" is the only situation I can think of where one would be judged sufficient, but it could easily be more than that.

>The oath is magically binding, so I don't think it's out of line to think it might leave some sort of trace on the two it binds together.

Maybe, but I don't think there's anything wrong in thinking that it's not gonna leave a trace either.

>And yes, in this situation the changes to the Luanr Exaltation are supposedly part of it's nature. That doesn't mean it's going to be an unnoticeable change though. In fact, I'd say that such a change being something closer to a built-in feature would likely make it easier to detect. It seems to be more evolution as opposed to subtle altering or twisting.

Altering or twisting the Lunar Exaltation would create the effect you describe without a doubt. But I'm not inclined to believe that the thing would've changed enough in a DAY to make Luna worry...

...Then again, we're a Titan so maybe it has. Huh.

>>66717
... That is the most long-winded way I have ever seen to call a group of people 'stupid and naiieve'.

Also, given Lunar Quest's mechanics, making a grandiose "big damn hero" speech (for lack of a better term) could very well mitigate the horrors of what we're saying.
>>
No. 66735 ID: 695191

>>66730
Just because the soul connects us to Luna doesn't mean she has any kind of way to analyze it. She like other gods is not omnipotent and has never had a reason to observe them anyway! On top of that remember that the hero soul is more attuned with stealth than others, so it'll be harder to tell anything about it.

...I wonder if our hero soul may come to double as a stealth deva? That'd be handy, at least.
>>
No. 66737 ID: 77cb34

>>66717
HT's depiction of your point might be a completely accurate description of HT, but I wouldn't discount most people just being kind of bad at keeping secrets.

If they weren't, we'd have no daytime television, and where would that leave us?
>>
No. 66740 ID: 370c40

I think there's something which all the arguments for revealing ourselves/not revealing ourselves to Luna have sort of ignored. There are five more Maidens and the Red Sun in play now, so it's REALLY difficult to say what the situation in Yu-Shan might be now. I mean, what's the Red Sun's job, exactly? Why did we need additional Maidens? What do those Maidens do? How does this impact the political situation in Heaven? Until we know a little more about what's going on, I don't want to take any major risks. We're only a day old, really. We can wait a day or two longer.

Also sort of want to talk about future souls again. What sort of purposes might we want for future souls, even before considering elements? A Weapon soul would be ultimately better than any weapon we could make or find. Some kind of protective or defense soul could have any number of uses, since there are so many ways to attack us. More esoteric things, like a Teaching soul, or a Crafting/Creation soul, or Sorcery, or something I haven't thought of?

Whoever's idea the Healing soul of Rebirth was, we could maybe use that to change Peregrin's Abyssal Exaltation back into a Solar one...or into one more attuned to our own Titanic nature. Probably that would require rather a lot more power than we have right now, but it's worth thinking about. Also the idea that was once suggested about having a lordly soul act as a second Moon to alter our own caste and other things at will makes me consider whether our own internal world needs its own celestial objects, and whether we should create souls to take charge of them? Stars, or moons, or stranger things?
>>
No. 66742 ID: cee89f

>>66737
(Thank you for saying 'HT'. No, seriously. THANK YOU. You have no idea the kind of annoying nicknames people ascribe to this name...)

na·ive
adjective
1.
having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature or absence of artificiality; unsophisticated; ingenuous.
2.
having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads. He has a very naive attitude toward politics.
3.
having or marked by a simple, unaffectedly direct style reflecting little or no formal training or technique: valuable naive 19th-century American portrait paintings.
4.
not having previously been the subject of a scientific experiment, as an animal.

1) Sophistication is for people who give a damn! =p
2) Ignoring what Luna may very well assume if she discovers it on her own, isn't the whole point of a fictional universe that it NOT behave like the real world, thus rendering real-world experience moot?
3) Since when was being direct a bad thing?
4) ... moving on.

>If they weren't, we'd have no daytime television, and where would that leave us?

... Uh, the world would be a much happier place?

>>66740
>I think there's something which all the arguments for revealing ourselves/not revealing ourselves to Luna have sort of ignored. There are five more Maidens and the Red Sun in play now, so it's REALLY difficult to say what the situation in Yu-Shan might be now. I mean, what's the Red Sun's job, exactly? Why did we need additional Maidens? What do those Maidens do? How does this impact the political situation in Heaven? Until we know a little more about what's going on, I don't want to take any major risks. We're only a day old, really.

Fair enough.

>We can wait a day or two longer.

Wait. How much more are we going to learn about the political situation in heaven in "a day or two"?
>>
No. 66744 ID: 9db85e

I like the idea of eventually taking the abyssal taint off of peregrin and replacing it with our own.

We can do the same with his manse there.


HT: Why are we scared of luna again? Sure, we can respect him as our matron, but we don't really need to bother with "oh noz, what if he findz out our horriblez secretz!"

I mean, exalted can become powerful enough to challenge the gods anyways, and we're a TITAN, as well as exalted. She can't exactly take our exaltation from us, and even if she could, we'd still be a titan.

The only thing we should be scared of is people who can force us to do things.

We are an independent. We seem to want to stay that way.
>>
No. 66745 ID: 370c40

>>66742
WHO KNOWS. We learned more today! Basically we should wait until we have a better idea of at least the basics. Peregrin is maybe better informed about what's going on in the Underworld, but he can't tell us very much of it, due to previous oaths, and the gods would probably shun him, so the affairs of Heaven are not really going to be where his expertise lies.

Kairosa apparently learned some things when she was created, or from licking the Hero's Soul? but she hasn't had time to really tell us that much of it.
>>
No. 66746 ID: bf54a8

luna would tell the sun, and he would send an army of solars gunning for us unless he is sure we wont be a threat.
>>
No. 66747 ID: b978d0

>>66744
You seem to be assuming that because we are a titan we have nothing to fear from others. Am I correct in reading that from your argument?

Given the history of Wordblood, I'd think that such an assumption would be flawed at best. Even more so when factoring in that we're a mere infant titan, with only the tiniest fraction of power compared to a mature titan. Mature titans which had their asses handed to them in a past war.

Then there's the little issue of the heroes upstairs that are currently being regarded as tangible threats to for the most part...
>>
No. 66751 ID: cee89f

>>66744
Uh... I'm not scared of her - i will be if we ever have reason to think she's gunning for us, but we currently don't. And in fact, I'm FOR revealing ourselves to Luna to try and gain some trust. =/ Isn't that why >>66737 called me a naiieve idiot?

As to the rest: No, you're wrong. If they can remove our exaltation, we are next to powerless. A mortal with magic words, at best. Remember: in most of our fights so far, we have relied on our Lunar exaltation's powers to get us out in one piece. Our titan powers are strong, but underdeveloped.

And let's assume, for one moment, that Luna can't remove the exaltation. She and Sol both have hundreds of heroes to call on that could easily obliterate entire armies of full-grown Titans. Let alone one infant titan. Peregrin (no offense to the guy) gave us trouble and he was holding back to keep from killing us.

The main reason we've done so well is because most of our opponents have been mortal humans. We're still very weak for a magical creature.

>>66745
If we had any source for getting information on the political situation in heaven, I could understand. But we don't. We have, at best, history books. That can tell us who's doing what, but it doesn't tell us, for instance, how the Maidens get along with each other, if Sol is allowing Luna to take over most of heaven's responsibilities, who all is pissy about the new arrivals, whether loyalties have shifted with the return of the Dragon's Shadow and if they have by how much...

>>66747
I'd like to point out that since killing He Who Bleeds was a purely tactical decision, Sol and Luna may very well be ambivalent towards him.
>>
No. 66752 ID: 11720d

>>66746
...oh. my. god.

Sidereal Fate Ninjas in Teacups! That's what this whole fear thing is reminding me of!

Thank you, bf54a8, for your post.
>>
No. 66753 ID: cdc7fd

>>66742
>Ignoring what Luna may very well assume if she discovers it on her own, isn't the whole point of a fictional universe that it NOT behave like the real world, thus rendering real-world experience moot?

I'd like to point out that people are also ignoring the way this universe functions in saying we should blab our secrets. The Titans lost the war and we've been told by our most reliable source of information that Luna would tell the Unconquered Sun who would do bad things to us. That's just the stuff directly in quest that says we shouldn't with nothing saying we should. If you start pulling in Exalted Lore, which some may be off about but unlikely for everything to be, you end with a lot more reasons like Autobot being pushed around by Sol and the Solars until he fled Creation out of fear that they'd kill or imprison him too.
>>
No. 66754 ID: cdc7fd

>>66752
Sideral Fate Ninjas(assuming you're talking about Exalted and not Lunar Quest) are ridiculous because they're overworked, only half actually want the Solars dead while the other half wants them alive, and there's lots of Anathema and very little reason to send the few Elders they have after every single one, no matter how important you think your character is. Sideral Fate Ninjas are a gag that some people started taking seriously.

Sol sending a bunch of the Solars after a Titan before it has a chance to mature, especially if there's a risk of it falling under the influence of what used to be the Ebon Dragon? That's probably the smart thing to do in his position.
>>
No. 66755 ID: b978d0

>>66751
>I'd like to point out that since killing He Who Bleeds was a purely tactical decision, Sol and Luna may very well be ambivalent towards him.

That I know. Was more making the point that even when we reach the status of fully matured titan we will still be vulnerable to attack by others. There is no precedent to indicate that there is a level of power achievable that would result in us being so powerful that we wouldn't need to worry about making enemies.


I'm really just advocating confiding in Luna as it seems to be a more positive approach.
We WILL be found out eventually anyway, better to make sure that it's on our own terms. Preference being to NOT make enemies of the current divine authorities in creation as, even if we do manage to keep our secret hidden until we reach full maturity and then some, we will not be able to stand against their combined might.


I'd note that we aren't a titan in the classic sense either. How many titans have had the soul of a mortal as it's queen/king after all?
What we are is some sort of Exalt/Titan hybrid. With the way things are organized, it actually looks like some sort of bizarre dual exaltation.

In the end, I'd rather try to aim to become our own being rather than purely aping the lunar or titanic archetypes that we have inherited. Making friends and allies along the way would be a nice plus.
>>
No. 66757 ID: 406926

>>66740
>soul of Rebirth
I'm thinking that instead of Healing, we should do a Creation soul of Rebirth. Or not rebirth, necessarily; I'm aiming for something more like... Re-creation? The talk about samsara in the current thread has made me think about the world- it's in repeating cycles, but they're repeating cycles of decay, or at least it seems like it; everything is a shattered ruin compared to what has come before. The new Age is crap compared to the last one, and all that.

We could change that. Make our soul be all about "that which has been can be again, better than it ever was". As creation souls go it wouldn't be terribly good at originality, but then it hardly needs to be when we can follow the old "great artists steal" adage and make our stolen copies better than the prototypes we built them from.

And it would let us fix things, which as I see it is a huge part of what we want to do. Fix the shadowlands; make them live again. Fix Creation; build its borders back to where they should be and restore what's been lost to the Wyld. Fix the corrupted Hero Souls, and with our touch make them better. Heck, maybe even fix whatever's keeping Haht'hek dead, or restore other dead people/things to reality, or maybe even make the other Titans less insane. Who knows.

Not to mention that it would help us- because we are a Titan, and we need to rise again better than ever before. Anything less will probably get us killed or worse.
>>
No. 66759 ID: 42ace1

>>66754
Also pretty impossible in both Lunar Quest and Exalted!canon, since I doubt very many Sun Heroes/Solars would give enough fucks to abandon their Very Important Shit That They Must Do And Cannot Leave On A Moment's Notice, to kill some uppity git in the middle of nowhere, where they would have to wait for the Dragon's Shadow anyways to let them into the Shadowland before they even have a shot at even meeting the bitch they're supposed to be killing!

If those Sun Heroes/Solars even give a fuck about what the Sun says. Which I would hazard quite a few might not!
>>
No. 66761 ID: cdc7fd

>>66759
First, why do they need the Dragon's Shadow's permission to enter a Shadowland? They wait for day, get in, and then they can leave during the day. There's no magical thing where you need permission to enter Shadowlands or the Underworld. Second, Solars do tend to give plenty of fucks about what Sol says in Exalted, and even if they didn't per Return of the Scarlet Empress he can hand out free Essence increases and Charms if he feels so inclined.

Solars are probably the last group you want to assume will be ambivalent to any big changes in Creation.

>>66757
By making rebirth an element of ours, it's not something we'll be doing once. it'll be something that is a core part of us, and is changing over and over again something we want? Also remember that rebirth isn't necessarily a good thing, a Hero being Reborn as a Villain is possible, and we don't get just the good with the elements we choose. Finally, the potential for us to restore the other Titan's is something that will likely make us enemies of pretty much all of creation.

For all the potential abilities of Rebirth, it has some serious downsides regarding what it might do to us.
>>
No. 66763 ID: 4ec548

>>66761
>They wait for day
Right, they have to wait for day. Perhaps you have forgotten, the Dragon's Shadow controls the flow of time in the Underworld and Shadowlands. If it is still night in the Shadowland, nothing in Creation can get in.

>Second, Solars do tend to give plenty of fucks about what Sol says
And? Even if what few Solars remain, as a group, listen to the word of the Sun, I would imagine a not insignificant number of those are more like Peregrin, in that they have vested interests in a sedentary piece of land or regional organizations/institutions, that they cannot very easily abandon at a moment's notice. There are, of course, wandering adventurers, I doubt that there would be any armies coming from there.

There are, of course, the Death Heroes and the Red Sun Heroes that would cut the potential Sun Heroes numbers.

But anyways! Really, the thing I am arguing against is the pointless paranoia with the "armies of solars" that the Sun would send after Saulanna. Because, seriously? That is just dumb.

The Sun Heroes are busy advancing their own goals out in Creation, the Wyld, the Underworld (possibly?), Yu Shan (probably), Autochtonia, and Malfeas (maybe; unlikely). Their numbers are also whittled by conversion to the Death Heroes or Red Sun Heroes. There possibly might be some agents from the Sun coming to convince Saulanna to join to their faction (or bother their rival factions, or at the very least don't get in the way of their plans), but there won't be any armies looking to kill her. Some few zealots of one stripe or the other, but no organized death teams.

For one thing, Saulanna hasn't made many enemies yet (at all, by my estimation). She was essentially just born barely a few hours ago. There may be some angered princelings, looking to take what they can from her, blaming Saulanna for what her thief past-life did, but I think that most of those would be turned away by Saulanna being a Moon Hero (and thus fully capable of beating, or coming too close to, them up), and more from her association with an accomplished Death Hero, who may decide that harm done to his 'friend' deserves some reckoning to the attacker.

tl;dr This whole seeing ninja death squads in the moon? it's stupid.
>>
No. 66764 ID: 370c40

>>66763
Even two or three older Solars is MUCH more than we can deal with. One single Solar alone could be a threat. Ten might as well be an army. And the Solars are hardly the only resource the Unconquered Sun and the entire Celestial Bureaucracy can draw on.
>>
No. 66765 ID: 9db85e

HT: I response, I wasn't saying that you were saying we should be afraid of luna, per se, but your argument against what'sisname seemed to be "we need to tell luna ourselves or else HORRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN."

If we go with what you suggested as #2, being we just go about our business and be awesome, chances are we'll be fine. If we're carefull, by the time anyone finds out about us, our titanic nature should be too big and powerful to hide anyways. And by that point in time, we should be big enough to hide on our own.

Chances are though, we'll be fine. There have been stories of lunars working with abyssals and all sorts of crazy things before, without losing their exaltations, I'm pretty sure its stuck with us. In which case we're pretty powerful.

Don't forget, the Exalts vs the Titans, there were a lot of exalts all united against the titans, and the exalts got the preemptive strike. The world is a lot more fractioned now, there's a lot more places to hide, and we can recruit followers and exalts of our own.

(not all of that's to HT. just to responses in general.)
>>
No. 66766 ID: cee89f

>>66753
What he said was 'we would have to throw ourselves on his mercy in any case', which means we would have to bow before him and hope he doesn't kill us. To be perfectly frank, we're going to have to do that at some point anyway and I would like it to be a point we can predict and potentially we'd open with a gesture of goodwill.

And I don't know enough about Exalted lore to use it to my advantage, so I'm just gonna point out that Saulanna is a Lunar Exalted, and what little I DO know suggests that Luna and her Exalted have a mother-child relationship (when she's not pulling pranks on them) and would vouch for us if that were the case. At least enough to keep us from being killed.

I'd still like to hear Wordblood and Kairosa's opinion on this... especially since Kai can feel out probabilities for the future.

>>66759
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sol doesn't usually talk to his Solars. So if he decided to, they would ALL know that whatever he had to say was important. And while I will agree that killing one upstart isn't worth the average Solar's time (especially since they're probably right in the middle of something creation-shatteringly important) killing one Yozi would be, and we're an infant Titan... which is basically a Yozi out of Malfeas.

>>66763
You don't NEED an army of Solars. One or two Solars would probably be enough. Peregrin was most likely holding back in his fight with us - remember, he wanted us alive for study - and we just barely pulled through.

>>66761
We should definitely consult with Wordblood and Kairosa on the Rebirth element for this exact reason... though personally I'm inclined to think the DEVA would be the one being reborn constantly and we would only change a little bit based on it's own differences. Like a new hairstyle: it's a difference and it's noticeable but it's not a massive difference...

...Actually, given how massive Saulanna's hair is, this simile/metaphor doesn't work very well for her...
>>
No. 66767 ID: cee89f

>>66765
Ah. The point I was trying to make was more along the lines of "bad s*** is gonna go down whatever we do! Let's try and make it less bad by telling Luna BEFORE she figures it out on her own!"

>Don't forget, the Exalts vs the Titans, there were a lot of exalts all united against the titans, and the exalts got the preemptive strike. The world is a lot more fractioned now, there's a lot more places to hide, and we can recruit followers and exalts of our own.

Didn't Wordblood make the point that if Heaven becomes our enemy every god in the world would be hunting us? Because KoC had a god of the BEACH, and someone once told me that there are gods for individual grains of rice (admittedly nonsentient, but the point is that there are a LOT of gods EVERYWHERE)
>>
No. 66777 ID: 9db85e

If I recall correctly, Gods can't directly attack titans though. Which is why they made the exalts in the first place.
>>
No. 66779 ID: 5d121c

You know, when I said we should contact Luna about help with our makeup in the quest thread, I wasn't actually joking.

I would like to get contact with Luna, but I wanted it to be something unimportant and inane for a start. To get a feel for how she might respond with very little risk for us.

It would make sense for Saulanna to do it too, I mean, she was completely blank a few hours ago. She might be smart enough to work a lot of things out, but this seems like a very appropriate thing for her to worry about and ask of a mentor figure.

Our devas are well off enough but not very big yet, basically perfect for concealing themselves. There should be no problem on that end.
>>
No. 66784 ID: cee89f

>>66777
The problem is that they can still pass information about our whereabouts along.
>>
No. 66788 ID: 695191

>>66779
It makes sense for her to ask, sure... but it brings Lunas attention to our situation, and that may raise flags. Not a huge risk maybe, but not worth it either.
>>
No. 66791 ID: 5d121c

>>66788
As was said by some people here, we need to contact Luna anyway.
>>
No. 66792 ID: bf54a8

idea, we pull a hostile into our world and and have wordblood hole his breath, suffocating them
>>
No. 66801 ID: 5d121c

>>66784
They can, but in most cases that's like random peasants telling on us. Unreliable and unlikely to be believed, and they might have their own agenda and/or be swayed to ours anyway.
>>
No. 66806 ID: 695191

>>66791
But not anytime soon! The need is there, and important, but not urgent in the least.
>>
No. 66819 ID: cee89f

>>66811
Good lord that was dumb... okay. Let me try again.

>>66801

If Sol and Luna consider us enough of a threat to try to kill, chances are they will get people who are VERY GOOD at hunting people down to find us. If you want to catch the Joker, send Batman; if you want to find Doctor Doom... check Latveria, and THEN send Reed Richards. Same concept. I'd imagine someone sent to hunt a titan would be able to differentiate between reliable, semi-reliable and unreliable sightings.

And (if I may step outside the fourth wall for a bit) dramatic convenience demands that if someone is sent to hunt us, they will find us at some point.
>>
No. 66820 ID: 273edc

Regarding Luna, just a few short hours after we exalted, we did the whole fight with Peregrin. After the fight he spilled the beans about our status as a baby titan--under the light of the full moon. It's entirely possible that Luna knows everything. Of course it's also possible that she was busy playing the Games and saw nothing. We should make no assumptions about what she does or doesn't know. As for her reaction, she's the Fickle Lady, she could say anything from "Yes, I knew. Thanks for coming clean." to "KILL IT!" to "Hmm... I need to go have a talk with Sol." to "That's interesting. I'll keep my eye on you for a while.".

For the moment, we don't really need her help. So there's not much point in talking to her. If the situation with the lunars becomes unsalvageable, then we might want to talk to luna about what to do. Let's try doing things for ourselves for now.

As for Sol, when his arch-nemesis escaped from hell he did nothing. For the moment, we don't rate high on the list of threats to Creation. He may just delegate everything to Luna, after all, we are one of her heroes. Just don't ally ourselves with The Dragon's Shadow. That'll certainly make Sol hostile.
>>
No. 66823 ID: 695191

>>66820
Exalted gods don't have anything nearly like omniscience, we really shouldn't assume things like that. And if she did know, and didn't say anything, then she has a reason not to. But far more likely she just didn't notice.
>>
No. 66834 ID: 5d121c

>>66819
Yeah, but Batman isn't every blade of grass.
>>
No. 66837 ID: cee89f

>>66834
(I am sure that there is an elseworlds tale somewhere where Batman becomes an army as numerous as blades of grass)

The metaphorical Batman would be an exalted sent to hunt us. The other gods would be the equivalent of civilian witnesses.
>>
No. 66839 ID: cdc7fd

>>66820
>As for Sol, when his arch-nemesis escaped from hell he did nothing.

That's... kinda presumptuous. TDS has Infernals and Deathknights working for him, and he fled into the Underworld. Gods, even the Incarnae, can't directly go against the Titans, or the original Titans at least. So Dragon's Shadow plus his Exalted in his own turf versus a similar number of Exalted. To assume that just because Dragon's Shadow is still around that nothing has been tried is pretty silly. We also have no idea how the Red Sun affected things in this regard either.
>>
No. 66855 ID: 9db85e

You know, it occured to me the other day, whatever expendatures we make on social stuff right now, Kairosa can just undo for us later, and we can spend our points elsewhere, if we so desire. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

It's the mother of all in-game respec options.
>>
No. 66857 ID: cee89f

>>66855
.........

I like this idea. You're awesome.

...

Wait, problem. How would Wordblood feel about that?
>>
No. 66860 ID: 695191

>>66857
Why would he have a problem with it? It would let us have our cake and eat it too, or more specifically focus on independence now and shift to self empowerment right after.

I assume you're worried that we would be giving lots of power to Wordy and then taking it back, I don't think he'd mind too much. It isn't like were reducing his soul force or subverting his nature or anything.

Also, although >>66531 describes Kairosas ability to undo 1 TW of powers, it doesn't say how many times we can do so. It's the difference between only ever freeing up one point at a time, and completely reversing every power of 1 TW as we wish. Sorta important. Also, Kairosa hasn't actually said she can do it at all in quest yet.
>>
No. 66862 ID: 370c40

>>66860
Kairosa might have to spend a point of power to do it, so we might not be able to respec instantly all the time. I doubt it's particularly limited otherwise in the number of times we can do it, though.
>>
No. 66864 ID: 695191

>>66862
>spend a point
Oh that's no big deal, our concern isn't on respeccing on quite that short of a term, but taking back the socially helpful things after we're done using them. But honestly, I think after we get through this we'll get our hands on a few more criminal ghosts to eat for power. As long as either party doesn't drag us away right off the bat.
>>
No. 66866 ID: 370c40

>>66857
Honestly World Reading sounds mad useful anyways, so after we get our power generation going we'll probably want a ton of points in it. Not too worried that Wordblood won't have TW being spent on him. Depth of Comprehension also sounds really useful to have at least 2 or 3 levels in, since it is an alternate way to get TW and it improves rewards from eating libraries.
>>
No. 66870 ID: a28731

>>488191
>focus on the social powers that might preserve your independence
>might
Am I the only one who noticed that he said "might"? They might not be enough in which case having extra power to pour INTO social to take social beyond what we can with the TW from a mere 2 souls might work better...
>>
No. 66875 ID: cee89f

>>66860
Normally, I'd agree that Wordblood wouldn't have a problem with it. Buuuuut A) emotions are rarely logical, and B) judging from things he said in ch.2, he's been feeling neglected/underutilized. And that was when he was the ONLY deva in our bodies.

>>66870
I imagine the 'might' is dependent on the arguments we choose in our future debate. If this idea couldn't work we'd have some strong indicator - that's how games work.

>>66862
We can give her power if need be - she did say power could be interchanged.
>>
No. 66877 ID: cfe29c

maybe we should just go out and hunt for souls and eat like 30 of them and spend it all on gaining power so by tomorrow morning we can have like a 100 TW.
>>
No. 66878 ID: 370c40

>>66877
We should at least find whatever criminals we got a lead on from the guys we just ate. We need whatever edge we can get before we get into any more social combat. We got absolutely destroyed last time, so even with a fair amount of upgrades we still need to try and play the Lunars against Akatrina somehow. Or vice versa. If we could get World Reading up to 3 we could use their Heart's Desires to make better informed attacks, but that's pretty costly. Would need to find at least another ghost for that to be a possibility. True Speech probably only costs 1 TW to unlock but I'm not sure what exactly it does, other than probably being useful in social combat. Wordblood might have enough SF now that new abilities are possible, though.
>>
No. 66883 ID: 695191

He was feeling bad because we were thinking of having a social element feeder soul, when he was all the social soul we'd ever need. He is the one that would have been the most potential help, and we were neglecting his very purpose in looking outside of that.

>>66877
We can't do that safely, and its bad karma too. But hunting down just a couple more guilty souls will do wonders for our available TW.

>>66878
We could boost our mental and personal stats but must take care not to exceed what a freshly human-turned-lunar could be capable of. Which is... not much to work with. But if we focus on social trickery along the lines of divinations, since that is the least likely to give any tells about our higher than expected abilities. And that would involve both of our devas powers equally.


By the way, we have set aside power for will regeneration but not set a focus for it. Honestly I don't know how that even should work, anyone got an idea there?
>>
No. 66885 ID: 406926

>>66877
I'm not sure how difficult it is to summon demons, but if Peregrin can do that conveniently then we can basically whistle them up as snacks- and we don't even have to feel bad about it, because I'm pretty sure that most of the imprisoned Titans would be 100% in favor of a newborn Titan gaining power as fast as possible even if it costs them the equivalent of a few toenails.

We could also tell Peregrin that we need ghosts for consumption and let him make the arrangements- there are the criminal ghosts to be located, but aside from that I bet there are a LOT of ghosts who are basically caught in mental loops, just going through the motions of existence with very little really there. No one's going to miss or significantly care about them. And beyond that, if it comes down to it and we tell Peregrin "get me fifty ghosts and I can teach you Power Words by the time we next speak with the visiting Heroes", which is entirely true since we'd be able to get the needed upgrades to bring him into our inner world with that much Titan's Will available and from there time is ours to play with, you'd better believe that Peregrin will get us those ghosts almost as soon as we're done talking.
>>
No. 66888 ID: a28731

>>66877
That was my original suggestion

However Jukashi clarified that there is a cap of 4/day per lordly deva (so 16/day total) on upgrading that skill at the moment (cap could be surpassed via quests).

Furthermore, MOST skills CANNOT be upgraded. Only a rare few skills are upgradable.

As such, eating only a few more souls would allow us to pretty much max out all but SF (on which we can spend lots and lots). My current suggestion is that before tomorrow morning we hunt down the other soul steel slavers who worked with those 2 we ate (lacking an ability to properly interrogate souls some of their co-workers got away with it, until K tasted their past)
>>
No. 66900 ID: e29d20

Here's an idea: why don't we go out hunting Hungry Ghosts? They're a nuisance anyway, so eating them should not only give us Titan's Will, it'll also get rid of a potential minor threat.
>>
No. 66901 ID: 370c40

>>66900
Unfortunately we only get power from Hungry Ghosts. The Beast Soul doesn't give us Titan's Will, only the Noble/Higher Soul.
>>
No. 66915 ID: e29d20

>>66901
I just did a quick search through all the quest threads and the discussion thread, and I cannot find that ever being stated anywhere. I may be missing something though, if I am, can you point where that was stated?
>>
No. 66916 ID: cee89f

>>66883
Maybe. But he later suggested that several ideas we had for a feeding soul would be better for social devas.
>>
No. 66918 ID: a28731

>>66900
Holy wow I completely forgot they exist!
Yea, those things have devolved into mindless monsters and are ideal for om noming!
>>
No. 66919 ID: 04b86a

>>66915
I found it for you. >>/questarch/197236 It was actually the only time the terms Beast Soul and Noble Soul were used in any of the quest threads, which made it really easy to find.
>>
No. 66920 ID: e29d20

>>66919
Ah, so it seems. Well, hunting a few of them down could be a good idea nonetheless, if nothing else, to use them as batteries so we don't need to be stingy with our magic.

Just keep a few frozen in the inner world, and then omnomnom on one when we're running low on power to get a quick mid-battle recharge.
>>
No. 66929 ID: 9db85e

Huh. I forgot about that. We were technically part titan already when we exalted. Intriguing.

I also forgot about gevin. Good ol' Gevin. I wonder what he's been up to lately.
>>
No. 66934 ID: cee89f

>>66929
Peregrin told him to hide and not draw attention to himself...

soooo naturally he's gone off and gotten the entire settlement to pay attention to him somehow =p
>>
No. 67014 ID: bc6fa6

A thought: Would it be possible to combine Kairosa's TIME powers with Power word STOP somehow?
Like...Reinforce the magic shout with Time element.
>>
No. 67032 ID: 695191

>>67014
That idea was floating, and it seems quite possible. What benefit it would have and at what cost is hard to guess at, though.
>>
No. 67039 ID: a28731

>>67014
Do we actually NEED to do so actively?
The Titan Saulanna is a SF9 whose overarching themes are currently: Time, Words, Humanhood.
Which based on WB's lecture suggests that using a time based titanic power or sorcery like a power word <time related> would work better for us then the titanic being who only had the orverarching themes of words and humanhood before.
>>
No. 67040 ID: bf54a8

we do NOT have en effective SF of 9. lvling up soul force is not linear. at best we have a total of 5, but probably 4. basically, would you say 3 lvl 3 fighters could match a single lvl 9 fighter n a fight? hell no.
>>
No. 67043 ID: 5d121c

>>67040
you could just see us as an extreme case of the example in the recent post, the one with a low SF creature being much stronger than its SF would indicate because of other powerful abilities
>>
No. 67044 ID: a5228d

Essentially, Saulanna (from the outside) does have Soul Force 9 in at least one respect (having as much Power and Will Points in total as such a being would have), but aside that it is ambiguous. Any ability between 3 and 9 may or may not be available. The lower, the better, and if it has any association with her Hero/deva themes, the better yet.
>>
No. 67051 ID: a28731

>>67040
I was quoting
>>/quest/490190
>"Your being a Titan can have unusual effects as well, my lady. You, Saulanna the Queen deva, have a Soul Force of 3. But Saulanna the Titan has an effective Soul Force of 9!

>>67044
Thank you for that clarification.
>>
No. 67064 ID: cee89f

Jedi mind trick!

.........

what?
>>
No. 67086 ID: 3bad4c

Just so everyone's clear:
Saulanna's core abilities are those of a human.
So she gets all of these for free:
* Having a corporeal body with a high degree of control over its movements
* Recovering from injuries, diseases
* Responding to stimuli (being sentient)
* Eating, Respiring
* Reproducing
* Thinking, Planning, Remembering, Learning, Guessing
* (Emergent) Applying mundane levels of force
* (Emergent) Ability to create and implement ideas
* (Emergent) Communicating with humans (and human-like beings)

(Emergent abilities are those that derive from more basic abilities)

Those low Soul Force gods don't even get that much. It would require a lot of soul force to just be sentient if that's not part of the core of that soul.

Based on that, titanic abilities that might be easier for her:

BODY:
* Enhanced healing
* Enahnced strength
* Enhanced dexterity

MIND:
* Enhanced memory (though so far this has not been an issue)
* Enhanced guessing (a.k.a. Intuition)

Unfortunately those are mostly traits! (Resilience, Strength, Agility, Intuition, etc.)
A Titan Boost for any of her Traits seems reasonable, though.
>>
No. 67087 ID: f2c20c

>>67086
You're forgetting that she gets powerful core abilities for being a Moon Hero, and the Hero Soul is piggybacking on her Soul Force.
>>
No. 67089 ID: 370c40

>>67086
Humans are basically inferior Dragon Kings.

Unless they Exalt. Then Dragon Kings are scrubs. Except for the REALLY old and powerful ones. There might still be a few of those out there? In their stasis crystals or whatever. Maybe we should try and find one! We can speak their language, so that's one hurdle down.
>>
No. 67090 ID: 3bad4c

Well no, I'm not forgetting she's a moon hero, I'm leaving those out for a very good reason:
We've been talking about a scenario where Moon Hero powers are not allowed.

The interesting question is "Are Saulanna's soul force increases locked up in the Exaltation Shard"? I'm guessing 'no' at this point.
>>
No. 67091 ID: f2c20c

>>67090
Uh, what? We're not forbidden from using any Moon Hero powers, we're forbidden from using any Moon Hero powers that would influence Akatrina.
>>
No. 67098 ID: a28731

>>67086
>Those low Soul Force gods don't even get that much. It would require a lot of soul force to just be sentient if that's not part of the core of that soul.
Is that why WB and K have cognitive abilities despite ridiculously low SF for a deva?
>>
No. 67103 ID: d2c6b4

That sounds like a (lord?) Deva core ability. Devas are not gods.
>>
No. 67104 ID: 695191

>>67098
The sentience of a deva seems to depend not on its actual SF but its relative one, meaning its where in the hierarchy they lie that determines if they're limited that way. The values Wordblood gave were for a full grown titan, which all of them were since before the beginning of time. Saulanna is entirely different from that.
>>
No. 67112 ID: cee89f

>>67091
Actually, this is an interesting point to tackle: how long is this particular oath in effect, and how far does it extend?

>>67104
>>67098

Low soul-force gods would be level 1 or 2. Our Devas are currently level 3, which according to Wordblood is where gods gain distinct personalities. Of course, they are not gods, so it doesn't really work that way for them. They're still acting their own soul forces... as opposed to NINE.
>>
No. 67115 ID: 08a3db

Some ideas that come for thematic powers.

Using Words to Help people plane for the Future or resolve issues relating to their Past. In other words, life planning or psychological counseling. Issues are that it might have very specific uses in social combat (think Naruto) and have psychological requirements to make work in this setting that we don't have. (Again, Naruto.) Other things this area might be used for is helping ghosts resolve their attachments to live. (Therapy plus getting quest hooks for the quests that will let them move on.) Might be a way of eventually getting titan's will out of this later usage. (Possibly combine with a whispering deva to social attack all the ghosts over time.)

Using Words to Help one party in an argument against the other. Might be a way to play off one against the other other, but it would probably require two or more sides.

Surviving and Feeding on combat using Words over Time. Will point re-generator. Maybe can also regenerate power, but that might already count as having been bought. Mainly for social combat, but a weaker version might work otherwise. Also might be useful for enhanced learning rates while in combat or social combat.

We might also be able to get a booster that boosts us more when we Help a limited list of entities, such as those we have one of the essential Confucian relationships with. For example, I feel we have a duty to Luna, and a responsibility to our subordinates, Kaan and the ghosts of the shadowlands. (I preferred to understand eating the criminal ghosts as being part of that responsibility. Prisons are only as secure as the regime that holds them, ours is at risk, and the Dragon's Shadow might have wanted them free and working for it.) We ought to represent Luna's interests versus the Dragon's Shadow and the Underworld. Staying in this shadowland long enough to understand, and to optimize it for stability and Luna's interests should do this. We ought to protect the ghosts from being trashed by the Shadow, or whatever he plans, and from being carelessly thrown down by our Elders.

My more normal, silly approach would be to suggest, in jest, that ten TW is enough for two more deva.

I think it would be interesting to try to grind schnozzlepoints, or whatever, by smelling stuff whenever we have free time. What can we smell in the Inner World?

If meditation in the Inner World can get Moon Hero Powers, perhaps developing some high power ones would help for planning Titan Ones, Perhaps we can use the inner world to train martial arts, or other such skills?
>>
No. 67119 ID: cee89f

>>67115
That's it! We'll be the titan of psychological healing! The Masked Shrink!

...

Stop looking at me like that, it's not any weirder than being Words incarnate.
"Yes it is!"
Shut up, you!
>>
No. 67121 ID: 5bf190

Need to clarify a few things, not sure if people are getting them already or not so I'll just be safe.

Wordblood is basically asking for ideas for abilities for him, Kairosa and possibly Saulanna to develop, individually. That is, these abilities have to be bought for Wordblood, or for Kairosa; or Saulanna can try to learn new Moon abilities. You're not buying abilities for all of them together. Wordblood can learn to enhance the abilities of his fellow devas with his own, as he's an Aide, but then that involves two abilities (one for his target and one for him).

And, while Wordblood said that he can get Time abilities because of Kairosa, that's an upgrade to the level of "maybe" from the level of "nope". So his ability to get time powers is weak, unless said powers are already also linked to his own themes, and even then, the time element has to take second place. And vice versa for Kairosa, she can learn Time and feeding/energy control powers, possibly with weak shades of Wordblood's themes or moon elements, but not anything major. Any ability either of them develops has to be associated with their own themes first and foremost (except a small number of generic spirit abilities).

Also, some abilities are in a relationship of prerequisites. Less so than in the original game, but still some.
>>
No. 67128 ID: cee89f

... Jokes aside, I feel we should tailor these abilities to meet our current needs against Akatrina and the Moon Heroes... but also Wordblood, Kairosa and Saulanna (individually) are at SF 3, where things still seem natural (if unlikely) for a human to be able to do. Some ideas:

Wordblood:
-An ability that makes things someone says sound more/less trustworthy than they actually are.
-Something that we say is what the other person feels or thinks about what we just said, rather than what they actually hear. (For instance, if we said, "That chef is untrustworthy", the person would hear, "Why is that man holding a meat cleaver?". Or "There's something outside" becomes "Did you hear that?")... not sure i'm explaining this one well, semantics and diction were never my strong suits.

Kairosa:
-Erase the last few seconds from someone's memory. Not enough to do anything of any real importance, but it's enough time to undo a mistake.
-This one, I'll admit, i'm not entirely sure applies to everyone. When I talk to someone for too long, I start to get sick of talking, and just want to end the conversation. Kairosa could make an ability that brings that frustration point on sooner.

Saulanna:
-Moonsilver Tongue: When someone hears Saulanna speak, they 'forget' things that would contradict what we say.
>>
No. 67129 ID: 695191

>>67121
I think we got that we're only going to pull off a few limited things right now, but the long term issue of "where are we going to go with this?" is raised and is rightfully being addressed. And the way Wordblood brought it up made it sounds more categorical than specific, and that he'd tell us what little can actually be done along that direction for now and also talk about the further possibilities.

Guess it's not exactly what you were expecting, but I think you can work with it.
>>
No. 67131 ID: 4411c7

I just gotta say -- Jukashi, you crazy. You cray cray. Telling us to develop powers for three separate magical beings? We'll all come up with different ideas and interpretations. It's going to be like a hall of mirrors if each mirror was a wave funhouse mirror. You totally cray Jukashi. Hopefully people can reach some semblance of a consensus, eventually.
>>
No. 67132 ID: 76b151

Hopefully he'll manage to distill our babble into several discrete suggestions we can vote one.
>>
No. 67140 ID: a28731

>>67104
I wasn't referring to gods I was referring to devas. Devas were mentioned in the discussion as well and their current SF is in the "lower commoner" tier which are supposed to be extremely narrow minded.

>>67131
All he has to do is have K and WB weigh in on the wild ideas we are throwing with what is feasible and what they can do and costs... then when we have that distillation we can pick and chose from said abilities.

Basically rather then inventing all possibilities himself and letting us choose, he is asking for us and then going idea by idea and either:
a. vetoing it
b. rebalancing it
c. taking it as is
d. being inspired by it to make an ability we didn't come up with that he wouldn't have thought of otherwise.
>>
No. 67141 ID: 695191

>>67131
>>67132
I just hope Saulanna isn't portrayed as nearly as nutty as the sum of her parts (us) clearly are
>>
No. 67170 ID: cee89f

>Fox's Clever Cant:Because we need to invent the Code of the Road.

...
The what? Is this something I wouldn't know being a social shut-in?
>>
No. 67173 ID: 695191

>>67170
I don't know if there is a more specific reference here, but that refers to "thieves' cant", a way of speaking that was meant to sound innocent but is actually code for secret messages about often illegal activities.

More info here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves'_cant
>>
No. 67214 ID: 76b151

Wordblood by his very nature has access to all languages and thier permutations. Any sorta thieves cant is included in that.
>>
No. 67226 ID: cee89f

>>67173
Thank ya.

>>67214
I assumed the point was to create a secret messaging system. Sure, WE could understand any cant, but that doesn't mean Peregrin or Gevin or anyone we're allied with could.
>>
No. 67238 ID: a28731

>>67226
Any language once created could be deciphered, and perhaps there are magics out there that would decipher it even if only two people know it.

WB can probably create any language without TW.

The ability to instantly impart on an ally a language (at the cost of perhaps moonpower) does sound useful though.

Although it is less useful and important then WB's ability (which he stated to have had before and expects to regain) to read the thoughts of others directly as well as privately speak in their mind. Which is infinitely more discreet then speaking a language in front of someone that they do not know (even if they do not possess the means to decode it they know something was said)
>>
No. 67269 ID: 7008f9

You know, this Lunar Soul we are stuck with might be a liability in the long term. Should we think about excising it from our titanic gestalt when we hit around Soul Force 50 or so?
>>
No. 67270 ID: 47a120

>>67269
How is it a liability? It is an artifact forged by two titans and gods, the titans being the best at what they do. It gives tremendous powers... for example, the ability to spend TW to permanently increase physical stats (at ridiculously cheap rate) only exists because of it. It is greater then the sum of its parts and we can instantly recycle it to TW if we were so inclined. Its only downside is the chaos infection madness which the only reason it didn't adapt to is probably a titanic curse, which we have already rendered ourselves immune to.
>>
No. 67271 ID: cee89f

>>67269
uh... how?

Also: heheh. "Wu-Blu"
>>
No. 67274 ID: 370c40

>>67269
I think any attached liabilities can probably be fixed. Unless you mean something other than the Great Curse or the themes linked to the Lunar exaltation?
>>
No. 67277 ID: 7008f9

The lunar soul could probably be used as a tool to attack the rest of our titanic essence. We're leaving a huge opening to get brainhacked through by any gods or titans with a sufficient understanding of how Hero Souls work.

Luna, especially, could probably figure out ways to effectively manipulate or threaten us through the Hero Soul. It gives her a direct line of communication into our brain.
>>
No. 67281 ID: 4a328b

Cute as it is, I don't think Word Blood especially LIKES being called Wu-Blu
We should probably give Kairosa a LOOK or something next time she does it, keep her from pushing all his buttons.
>>
No. 67282 ID: 370c40

>>67277
I think Luna is the only god or titan who has any sort of direct line to us. And while she could manipulate us through that communication NOW that's because we are incredibly weak. With a soul force of 50 we would be a lot harder to push around. Also the Exaltation gives us abilities to protect ourselves from that sort of manipulation. I'm not aware of any way gods other than Luna could use it. As for titans, Autochthon MAYBE but that's because he designed the things.
>>
No. 67284 ID: 908c2d

The exaltation is going to change and adapt with us. Eventually, I think it's going to be too different from what it started from for Luna or autobot to use it as a way to exploit us.

>Our oath prevents Moon Boosts, etc
...is the oath with Kat still relevant? I thought that was just for the social combat we already finished.
>>
No. 67285 ID: cee89f

>>67277
That isn't going to matter.

Why?

A) Even if you ignore B, at our current level, Luna could beat the crap out of us by SNEEZING TOO HARD.

B) Luna cannot directly act against the Titans anyway due to her geas. That's why heroes were created in the first place.

C) This weakness will only really be useful when we're powerful, but once out of our current state of baby-titan-hood, we'll be powerful enough to defend ourselves from such an attack, making the whole weakness moot.

D) Luna is not our enemy.

>>67281
We could also tell Wordblood that she doesn't mean anything by it, but yeah, tell her off (gently)
>>
No. 67290 ID: 695191

>>67284
If we agree that it is, or that it isn't, next we meet then it will be the case. If it goes unsaid, probably not.

>>67285
>doesn't mean anything by it
I'm sure he's quite aware of that, it's just his whole "made of language" thing that likely makes nicknames rub him entirely the wrong way.
>>
No. 67295 ID: dd2f7f

Currently our lunar abilities are partially governed by our Queen Soul Force level, and improving it via Titan's Will has similar consequences, correct?

So what would happen if we upgraded our hero soul? Judging by Wordblood's explanation, would it become sentient at Soul Force 3? And what effect would it have on our abilities?
>>
No. 67303 ID: 47a120

>>67285
In addition to all of the arguments presented here (which are excellent arguments).

Luna does not possess any power over heroes minds through the exaltation, nor does anyone else.
For proof simply read Keychain of creation (also by jukashi) and notice how there are "traitors" of every single exaltation type. If Luna possessed the power to mindhack lunar exalts then how does one of them serve the forsaken lion in direct opposition to her?
And even if excluding jukashi's other work, in lunar quest itself you have oddly affiliated/unaffiliated exalts, and deathknights and solars who go to have their exaltation modified to twilight (so at least the sun does not have a backdoor into solar's minds).

Leaving a backdoor is a huge security risk as it makes your entire army hackable, someone could find it and make all of them self destruct at once or some such. It makes far more sense to not leave a back door, make them unhackable, and simply use numbers and personal power to ensure loyalty. If someone turns traitor you set the other 299 lunars to kill them and reclaim their exaltation for a new host.
>>
No. 67312 ID: 9e0824

>>67303

This. The Hero Soul is specifically protected from that kind of thing, to make sure the Titans couldn't just command the Gods to command their servants to lay down arms.
>>
No. 67316 ID: f2c20c

Hey, doesn't anyone else realize that trying to develop a Heart's Desire to be Luna's "daughter" is a really bad and cheesy idea?

1) It would closely align us with the Lunar Heroes, which we don't want because they want to tattoo us which is clearly bad, AND we want to remain independent.
2) A close relationship with Luna would surely reveal us as a Titan which is, again, bad at this point. We do not have enough good will to ensure a good outcome from revealing ourselves.
3) What makes us think Luna thinks of us as more special than any of the other Lunar Exalts she's helped out? Not special enough to have a privileged relationship! In fact, she specifically said she is only willing to help us out in ways that would compensate for our amnesia.
4) C'mon do you really think this kind of sappy bullshit would fly in this kind of quest?
>>
No. 67319 ID: 3bad4c

>Hey, doesn't anyone else realize that X is a really bad and cheesy idea?
Well, usually we just ignore bad ideas unless the person who spouted them keeps going ON and ON and ON and I could think of a few people who do that. (It's often those who aren't anonymous.)
>>
No. 67321 ID: cee89f

>>67316
I didn't even think such a thing was possible, really. =/ Maybe I'm just bonkers but that doesn't really seem like a heart's desire to me.
>>
No. 67322 ID: 5d121c

>>67316
1) Being aligned with other moon heroes doesn't mean they're gonna force us to get tattoos. They'd just nag at us.
2) This depends on how we'd go about it. Revealing ourselves wouldn't necessarily come any sooner than it will anyway because of it.
3) Luna has a special relationship with every Moon hero. This kind of thing wouldn't really stand out.
4) Yeah, sure, why not. We're doing things exactly like this with Wordblood and Kairosa already anyway.
>>
No. 67323 ID: bf54a8

no it means, if we THINK what they are saying would get luna's approval we would go along with them. including stupid shit like "luna thinks tattoos are totally cool"
>>
No. 67324 ID: f2c20c

>>67322
If Luna has a special relationship with every moon hero, and this wouldn't stand out, what benefit could we possibly get from such a Heart's Desire? I mean, this sort of thing is supposed to get us a benefit because we'd be special. If we're not special, then we get nothing out of it.
>>
No. 67330 ID: c6319f

Put me down as another person who thinks the "Luna's daughter" Heart's Desire is bad and also dumb.

At the very most basic level of its dumbness, we were just told that it is decided by our actions and thoughts, cumulative at that, rather than simple decision. Unless we go hacking ourself with Titan magic which is not something you will ever get a consensus in favor of don't even bother guys. Saulanna hasn't been doing anything like pining over Luna as a mother figure so far, so it isn't a valid choice for organic Heart's Desire development at this time.
>>
No. 67332 ID: 47a120

>>67316
I agree with all points.
Although religiously all the lunar exalts are "Luna's daughters/sons" according to Keychain of Creation. Having an actual hearts desire based on it makes no sense.

I am guessing its gonna be something like "deliver mercy and goodness" or some such to considering how much of a bleeding heart we are making her. (not sure how specific hearts desires are)

Also, I think a good long term goal is would be to deliver ultimate mercy to the various titan fragments (those that were torn out of the titans and are in a cycle of dying/not dying and gone mad from the suffering; one of which was used to create WB for us AFAIK).
>>
No. 67343 ID: 5d121c

>>67330
It might be a dumb idea, but it isn't as bad as your post. "Stop discussing things that I don't like!"
>>
No. 67351 ID: cee89f

>>67343
"I'm mad that you're yelling so I'm gonna yell at you!!"

... Wait, what post are you referring to? *confusedface* The one you were quoting says the idea is dumb, but it never says to stop discussing it - just that's bad as presented.
>>
No. 67354 ID: 5d121c

>>67351

>>67330
>don't even bother
>>
No. 67356 ID: 370c40

>>67354
That was referring to hacking Saulanna's brain with Titan magic. Which ISN'T ever going to get a consensus on it because that's pretty much the definition of a bad idea.

I'm confused now what are you saying exactly
>>
No. 67359 ID: 5d121c

>>67356
It doesn't matter if it's gonna get a consensus or not. Let people discuss it if they want.
>>
No. 67365 ID: f2c20c

>>67359
Since we're talking about suggestions, discussion is not an issue. Discussion is done in here, not amongst suggestions.
>>
No. 67366 ID: 47a120

>>67356
Hacking Saulanna's brain with titan magic? I don't recall anyone discussing that.
I do recall a discussion about Luna hacking Saulanna's brain with god magic via her exaltation and you had 1 guy saying it worried him (and made him think the exaltation is a liability and must be destroyed) and half a dozen explaining various reasons why it isn't an issue.
>>
No. 67373 ID: c6319f

>>67359
I didn't say don't discuss it. I said there's no point in discussing it because it is never going to happen. It's a waste of everyone's time. "Don't bother" shouldn't be interpreted as a prohibition but rather as a strongly worded suggestion, or as advice. There is nothing wrong with identifying an idea as wholly unworthy of our attention, or expressing it as an opinion.

>>67366
Entirely different conversations. It has been discussed in the past and vaguely touched on in the last update; it is what would be required to artificially impose a Heart's Desire on Saulanna and there are a great number of people who have serious reservations.
>>
No. 67410 ID: 4a328b

What was really annoying last social battle was not being able to change the topic due to failing the leadership challenge. Can a moon or titan boost take care of that, in the upcoming battle?
>>
No. 67414 ID: f2c20c

>>67410
We are forbidden from using a Moon Boost for it since it would count as influencing Akatrina. I don't think Wordblood can give us any direct assistance with that particular challenge so his Titan Boost won't help either.
>>
No. 67424 ID: 370c40

>>67410
We still don't have a Leadership competency, even basic, so we're still out of luck there. If we eat any uncaught slavers and they have some sort of leadership competency, that could help, or if we can get hold of a book on leadership maybe. Akatrina's only got a 7 to our 4, so theoretically we could get ours higher than hers and make that not a problem, but we need the actual resources to increase that competency. Also worth noting that we have two social competencies that are Expert level, Deception and Intimidation. So we're really good at growling at people and lying, I guess! Worth remembering.
>>
No. 67467 ID: df3507

>>/quest/491974
>>/quest/491980

Stupid question, but why are some anons acting as if we have 7TW left, and not 10? The closest update I could find was Kairosa suggestion in

>>/quest/490189

Did we pull through with it, or did we raise Saulanna to SF 4 at some point, or were the other anons just trolling/confused?
>>
No. 67470 ID: 3bad4c

Nobody is trolling, but that post definitely implies "Jukashi counted up the intentions and it's about 30% more power generation, 70% more social powers", and that would imply a 3-7 split.

We're only supposed to post once between updates, I'd rather not waste mine arguing over things that have already been decided.
>>
No. 67483 ID: df3507

>>67470
Re-reading the posts, that makes sense.
Thanks, looks like I was the confused one.
>>
No. 67501 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/493221

I believe he was referring to the fact that we were a walking bonfire.
>>
No. 67509 ID: 47a120

>Saulanna's physical body can be altered using TW, which is represented as buying up Might, Agility, Toughness or Beauty. The other Talents, dickery and inspiration and all the mental ones, can't be bought up, since they're measures of Saulanna's mind and personality. It just costs a flat 1TW for any upgrade and can only go up to 5, for now.

These upgrades seem incredibly cheap yet potent to me. Only beauty is applicable to social combat yet the others seem extremely useful.
Even going from 4 to 5 costs a mere 1TW. (the only reason we can make those improvements is due to unique synergy of our titanic nature and lunar exaltation and if we get the tattoos we risk loosing the ability to upgrade those)

Anyone else is tempted to max out might, agility, and toughness?

>>/quest/493221
1. that was before we had a feeding deva
2. we are very deep underground.
>>
No. 67512 ID: bf54a8

one point of beauty is already pushing the physical changes that cleaning up REALLY nicely can cover up. if we suddenly turn into a combination seductress/she-hulk they will be max sus.
>>
No. 67513 ID: 9ee360

>>67512
Ah, but while an increase in beauty will be obvious, increasing our other stats won't necessarily be as apparent.
>>
No. 67514 ID: f2c20c

Well, Agility and Toughness would likely be completely unnoticeable, but I think people would notice her suddenly developing more muscles.

Oh, and those worrying about the whole soul-eating resulting in a flaring of Saulanna's aura- Kairosa can deal with that so long as Saulanna doesn't mind a bit of pain in the process. It's not a major issue.
>>
No. 67516 ID: 47a120

>>67514
why would increasing strength to ridiculous superhuman levels be visible? (no sarcasm)
>>
No. 67519 ID: f2c20c

>>67516
...because you can see muscles?
>>
No. 67520 ID: cee89f

>>67519
A) Contrary to popular belief 'strong muscle' does not automatically mean 'muscle the size of your head'. Especially for creatures whose strength comes largely from their magic.

B) Even if we MUST augment our muscles so they're bigger, Strength and toughness aren't something immediately noticeable, and if someone quickly improves by a significant margin you likely aren't going to notice unless you also have their previous image in front of you to compare. Especially if you haven't seen their strength before now.

C) If we're explaining beauty with cleaning up, they'll probably write off any oddities as results of whatever we did.
>>
No. 67521 ID: cee89f

>>67520
... Lemme rephrase A.

Just because a muscle is stronger doesn't mean it's going to visibly change.
>>
No. 67525 ID: 47a120

>>67520
>>67521
Not only are you correct for the real world.
Saulanna lives in super magic world and is a magic person
>>
No. 67529 ID: f2c20c

>>67525
>>67521
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Increasing the strength of a muscle of fixed length requires adding more muscle mass. That is just how muscles work. Also, in this universe you would need a constant magical effect to be stronger without changing your physical body.

I'm sure there's some degree of abstraction, but having more muscle mass would be observable no matter what, considering Saulanna's outfit.
>>
No. 67534 ID: cdc7fd

>>67529
Consider that in Exalted mortal creatures are all literally made of Earth, Wood, Fire, Air, and Water magic.

That said, until you get to the point where you're so physically capable that you need to either be have the equivalent Essence of an Elder Exaltto get any stronger increasing physical attributes is probably going to be as physically noticeable as you'd expect a mundane who trained for it would be instead of just "magic". Especially true for Saulanna spending points on these things, as the reason she can increase her attributes without training is by using Titan's Will to literally alter her body.
>>
No. 67547 ID: cee89f

>>67529
No, sorry, you're dead wrong. That's not even true in the real world. Least of all in Exalted, where everything is literally made of magic. Track runners and martial artists, for instance, have dense, compact muscle that emphasizes speed of contraction over raw power. But it's still strong stuff.

Moreover, even if it were, it's not like they're taking exact measurements of our muscles both before and after our buff up. A change in muscle size isn't going to be noticeable until it has changed significantly. Unless you're suggesting we improve by a factor of ten, it's not going to be immediately noticeable.
>>
No. 67549 ID: 3e515e

I think we can all agree that this is up to Jukashi in the end and stop throwing poop at each other.
>>
No. 67550 ID: 5d98c3

>>67549
And now you know why I avoid the Dis thread. It really is like Dis in here.
>>
No. 67551 ID: 08a3db

Regarding the Soul Fire burst discussion in the Quest thread. I think we are still in timestop. We should be able to meditate and grab a moon power for concealing soul fire before we leave.
>>
No. 67634 ID: 4a328b

Hey, had a thought. If we decide to track down the other criminal ghosts, we might want to go for the MERCHANTS; they're sure to have some social skills we could put to use!
>>
No. 67635 ID: f2c20c

>>67634
Good idea!
>>
No. 67637 ID: 406926

>>67634
We already have Advanced Salesmanship, which is probably the key merchanting skill. I'm more concerned about getting Leadership, because topic control in social combat is an Inspiration/Leadership comparison. Saulanna has Inspiration 4, so we need at least Advanced Leadership to match Akatrina or Expert Leadership to beat her. Being able to define the topic would be utterly priceless in the coming social battle.

Of the listed ghosts, the barbarian chieftain is by far the most likely to have a solid Leadership score. That makes them the most important target for improving our social abilities, in my opinion. The fact that they're also likely to net us the most Titan's Will (because of probable personal power and the described retinue) is just icing on the cake.
>>
No. 67649 ID: f2c20c

>>67637
Being able to define the topic would also tip off the fact that we just somehow increased our stats.

A lot of numbers are hidden in social combat normally, but topic change is an unmodified check. It'd be a clear tell.
>>
No. 67650 ID: 370c40

>>67649
There are other ways to increase stats, like artifacts, or sorcery, that aren't covered by our oath. Doesn't prove anything important. We only said Hero powers, everything else is fair game.
>>
No. 67651 ID: 9ee360

>but topic change is an unmodified check. It'd be a clear tell
...assuming of course, our opponents know how how the battle system's stat checks function. That's starting to get a little meta, though.

>>67650
Assuming that the oath still matters. As we discussed before, it doesn't have to still be in effect for future social combat with Kat.
>>
No. 67666 ID: 05a042

I can't help but wonder what Dickery can do for someone in Social combat...
I'm pretty sure Saulanna has more 'skills' in that department than in leadership, so she probably would be better able to match Akatrina in social combat if she could bring those to bear.
The tough part, is figuring out HOW to use Dickery, seeing as for the most part, leadership seems to be the prominent role here...
>>
No. 67669 ID: cee89f

>>67666
Wordblood implied that being dickish could be boosted to intentionally make what we say sound untrustworthy >>quest/491878/ here.

>>sound more/less trustworthy
>"That's more in the range of your own Moon Boost, my lady, if used with your Inspiration or Dickery."
>>
No. 67722 ID: cee89f

>She Who Waits At The End Of Time.

Also "Lady of Entropy".

So, Kairosa, She who Waits at the End of Time, Scavenger of Ages, Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon, and Lady of Entropy.

Geez, she's been in existence all of a few seconds of real-world time and she has four or five titles... and I'm SURE I missed some. We need to get Wordblood some titles.

He already has 'He who aids in understanding'... how about The Unknown Word, Mistbringer, or Blood of Eloquence*?

*noun
1.
the practice or art of using language with fluency and aptness.
2.
eloquent language or discourse: a flow of eloquence.
>>
No. 67723 ID: 9ee360

Honestly, "She who Waits" is a pretty effective title by itself.
>>
No. 67725 ID: 695191

I dunno if we should use "entropy" it just sounds weird in the context of the setting. Even with Autochthon, Alchemicals and their ilk around with their tech levels that kind of scientific parlance isn't going to be well or at all known. But I'm sure Wordblood is familiar with the term, at least.

>>67722
>Legacy of the Dragon That Never Was

I don't think we should apply "eloquence" to Wordblood, as that sounds like a future noble deva under him. Mistbringer is also sorta barely what he's about, not worthy of a title. I think we should wait a bit for him to redefine himself a bit more before giving him titles. One referring to his origin could be ok though. Can't think of a good one there, myself.
>>
No. 67730 ID: 47a120

>>67722
eh, there are way longer names.
See secret's full name here http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html
>>
No. 67739 ID: 6d4a47

Hrrrm...It's kind of bugging me that Dickery isn't that useful...
Alternate plan: instead of social-fu trickery, what if we were too... Show off, as it were?
Our magic looks weird. If someone knew what to look for, they'd find signs of a Titan.
BUT HERE'S THE CATCH!
The Greenies got stomped, and that happened a pretty long time ago right? What if we revealed that yes, Peregrin experimented on Saulanna, and claim a fusion of Dark Hero and Lunar Hero is what we're doing? A false trail to lead them off the right path? We'd have too give Peregrin a Power Word, which would seal him to us, but it might be an interesting diversion, the setting up of which could buy us time to scheme/ferret out information.
Let's not forget, the Lunars and Akatrina WILL be moving and doing things. I think we can keep Akatrina from trouble with Peregrin, but it will tie him up. We could work with the Lunars, ask for their help in anti-Akatrina shenanigans, maybe even just give them a chance to shred her while no-one's looking, if it comes to that.
Rrrgh, to be honest, my plans pretty much are 'play one off the other', but I can't think of a good way to do that and remain separate and independent!
I feel like gearing up to beat Akatrina's a good idea, but I fell like more important is to figure out the HOW we're going to do it...
I can say I'm not fond of 'independence', the Dragon knows something is up, so we need a reason for him NOT to focus his attentions on us, or at least a target he'd rather not go after. Say we somehow strong arm Akatrina outta here. He goes, alright not willing to talk it out. Fine, let's play hardball!
Cue bad things.
I like the whole 'Lunars kill Akatrina' because it removes the blame of Akatrina's death from us, like if she died in a storm on our land. Maybe not quite squeaky clean, but at least not our fault...
Hrmf, I think we basically did hard mode here. No powerful backer, AND a potential powerful threat that could work all manner of harm to us.
>>
No. 67740 ID: 695191

>>67739
That sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth, and probably relies on knowledge we don't have access to. Let's forget "showing off" and save the crazy claims unless we already are exposed as something that shouldn't be possible.
>>
No. 67741 ID: cee89f

>>67730
What does length have to do with it? I was talking about number of titles. Secret's name is ONE title. Even if it doesn't look like it.

... NUMBER of titles is largely irrelevant too, but I definitely wasn't talking about LENGTH =p

>>67723
True dat.

>>67725
>Legacy of the Dragon That Never Was

Ehhhh... not a bad title per say, but it rubs me the wrong way. With the way Kairosa explained time shenanigans, the dragon in question existed, the world was just forced to pretend he didn't.

>One referring to his origin could be ok though. Can't think of a good one there, myself.

'The Unknown Word'? As in, 'He who bleeds the Unknown Word'?

...

Well, I like it =(

>Mistbringer is barely related to Wordblood

Eh... i wanted to come up with a title that referred to the fact that, at the moment, he manages the air and water of our inner world. Then i thought of that mist he can create that supports living creatures. Mist is air and water, he makes it, bam, title.

Looking back it's admittedly kinda dumb =/
>>
No. 67743 ID: 695191

>>67741
>the dragon in question existed, the world was just forced to pretend he didn't.
Well because the dragon was made time itself, it went from existing eternally to no longer being part of the present, future or past. Anything that exists does so somewhen, and that no longer applies to him. The world wasn't forced to pretend he wasn't there like their memories changed, he just never was.

Still, the title could be better. I think the only one worthy of her for now is She Who Waits.

>Looking back it's admittedly kinda dumb =/
Well who knows, the elemental aspects of our devas might become more important later. If he develops his water and air powers further that may indeed be appropriate. I think it's more likely that he drops water later though, or at least assigns it to a noble.

On that subject, I assume Wood and Earth belong to Saulanna, and Fire and Aether are assigned to Kairosa. If aether counts as an element, anyway.
>>
No. 67746 ID: cee89f

>>67743
>The world wasn't forced to pretend he wasn't there like their memories changed, he just never was.

Kairosa said that she could feel the echo Haht'hek's passing left behind. The fact that there was an echo at all means he existed. Wordblood remembers him, so he existed. Haht'hek existed, the world just forgot him.

>Elements

Eh, Wordblood got water and air because of his connections to words and blood. Saulanna can't even act as a deva on her own within the inner world, she probably doesn't have any elemental control as of yet. I could see Kai being responsible for Aether (feeding soul AND time element) but I'm not sure how she'd relate to fire =/ though i guess you could say it ties into her excitable personality or something.
>>
No. 67750 ID: 695191

>>67746
I guess the terms existed or not are more difficult to define here. I think what's important is that titans are on a level above

>I'm not sure how she'd relate to fire
Entropy relates to fire pretty well. And fire itself is a form of the phase of plasma - which all that space imagery in kairosa is literally made of.

Or if for no other reason, that Wordblood is associated with books and would have nothing to do with fire, leaving it to her.

>she probably doesn't have any elemental control as of yet.
Control? No. But looking at her personal section of her inner world it's hard to imagine wood being under anyone elses purview.

...We should just ask them who has what elements
>>
No. 67764 ID: 7008f9

Can we afford increased SF for Saulanna and World Reading?
>>
No. 67770 ID: 695191

>>67764
Yes. We can follow any of the current plans, and reassign the 3 TW from generation to Saulannas soul force. That might be the best plan, if it can help get through this mess and score a couple more ghosts soon.
>>
No. 67771 ID: 7008f9

Yeah, I like that idea. We'll be a little better at everything, and we'll just happen to figure out stuff that makes our social maneuvers dramatically more effective.

If we play our cards right, we won't end up tipping off the heroes that we are more than we seem.
>>
No. 67772 ID: 47a120

I thought the reason wood,earth,fire,water,air are elements is because those are the titans of gaia the titan who forms the world.

To assign such elements to existing devas with a different elements is absurd.
WB's element is words, K's is Time.
And mist is a perfectly valid element for a world that is composed of pure willpower made manifest without being a combination of fire and water.

We can certainly MAKE a deva whose element is wood/fire/etc if we so desire. But if we don't then there is no reason our devas have to be arbitrarily divided up between gaia's elemtns
>>
No. 67773 ID: 9ee360

>>67772
You're right, but I think where they're coming from is our inner-world is sort of an echo of Gaia's world. It's set up the same way. And since we don't have devas of the classical elements, it falls to other Devas to manage the elements that make up our psedo-world.

We know words and blood give Woldblood a tenuous connection to air and water, and in lieu of a Deva more closely tied to those concepts, he gets to manage them in here.
>>
No. 67774 ID: 47a120

>>67773
I see, but does our inner world actually NEED to be made out of the classical elements?
Could the inner world be composed entirely of the elements of the devas? I bet it is for other titans and the only reason ours seems to echo gaia is due to having been born of a human (who is composed of gaia's elements).

But I suspect eventually the focus would shift and saulanna's inner world really would be made entirely of her "own" elements.
>>
No. 67775 ID: 9ee360

>>67774
I'd assume restructuring our inner world to follow our own lines rather than Gaia's is something we could do (well, unless Gaia's domain is basically to define what a world is).

It might cause problems when we try to bring things or people into our inner world if the underlying foundations are different though. (People for time stopped planning / discussions / teaching, the contents of our inner den).

Dunno. Best example might be to look at how auto handles it. His inner world is populated, and his devas all have elements that are are physical things.
>>
No. 67776 ID: cee89f

>>67775
Well maybe, but consider that Wordblood's mist supports living creatures. That's all it says on the matter: it supports living creatures.

It seems to me that keeping someone alive in Saulanna's inner world is as easy as deciding that we can do so and making our stuff work accordingly. Sure, we need to make air for people who breath, but other than that, what does a person need moment-to-moment that we can't supply through sheer willpower?

...Basically, our world is not going to be inherently poisonous to anything out there unless we specifically make it so. We are a TITAN. we think, and it is so. By the time we're powerful enough that such a thing would genuinely be an issue, we'll be powerful enough to correct it.
>>
No. 67780 ID: da43f8

I can't help but wonder about using that moon charm to suck people into the inner world, then have WordBlood hold his breath of life, cutting off air to the person.
Probably isn't a power that could be used like that though, limitation on what can go in! The titanic version that works on ghosts though...But we'd have to upgrade it for those shenanigans.
I wonder what will happen to abilities we have a lunar version of and a Titan version...
If Wordblood's comment about Lordly Deva overlap is any indication... That will be interesting to see!
>>
No. 67782 ID: 47a120

>>67776
I think you are right

>>67780
I am sure it will work for mortals but they are so far below us that its completely pointless to kill them in such a way.

Exalted will be able to survive due to their exaltation protecting them from the hostile reality long enough to destroy us. Remember the lunars spent time in the actual feywilds, the chaos anti-reality. And all the heroes originally were designed to fight titans which they did by FORCIBLY entering their inner world to perform violent unwilling soul surgury on them (aka, ripped out and "killed" their devas).
>>
No. 67785 ID: 4a328b

I think maybe the Dragon's Shadow is staring at us in this most recent update o_o

>> Swallow Your Passion
>This power scares me, and I vote against it until we discover how or why it works, and where it's coming from.

I got the impression that it might be a Saulanna specific power, rather than a power from the Moon Hero soul?
>>
No. 67786 ID: d5dfa3

Yeah, I'm thinking that's the source of Swallow Your Passion, too, since that's similar to his to the kind of thing he does. Based on that, I'd have to agree that on being uncomfortable with taking that.
>>
No. 67787 ID: 3bad4c
File 136159983886.png - (42.57KB , 600x500 , tq-autolevel.png )
67787

Voices of the Past ability revealed:
Auto-level Faint images are made brighter. 1MP.
>>
No. 67788 ID: bf54a8

it's like holding your breath. also what is the time limit? just hold it until you are near something punchable.
>>
No. 67789 ID: 9ee360

>>/quest/495307
What's Wordblood saying there? "Why didn't ??? of you notice that?" I'd expect the missing bit to say "the rest", but that don't fit.
>>
No. 67790 ID: 04b86a

>>67789
I think the mystery word is "either".
>>
No. 67791 ID: 370c40

Obviously the solution to this Dragon's Shadow problem is to split off a new deva. because that will only cost us like 5 TW we can totally afford it
>>
No. 67792 ID: 4a328b

>>67791
A Perceptive deva, huh? What element, light?
>>
No. 67793 ID: 370c40

>>67792
Huh, yeah, that /would/ probably work. And even if it didn't, it probably would make TDS uncomfortable poking his head into our inner world. Not sure that's the ideal choice, though, still thinking about it.
>>
No. 67794 ID: 18436c

>>67792
Light bad. Did you not read the update? Scent would be fitting.
>>
No. 67795 ID: 490792

>>67794
scent is also the sense best suited to perceiving the past, might have good synergy with kariosa.
>>
No. 67796 ID: f2c20c

>Upon taking Akatrina's hand, the Death Hero's divine brand bleeds into view on her forehead. Saulanna feels... did she imagine it?... the brush of something smooth and slick and long, slithering up over her back and around her neck, gone before she can be sure it was there. A brief awareness of the other woman, like the feel of a line under tension, is noticeable for a moment before fading into the recesses of her mind.

The awareness of Akatrina is the oath taking effect. The slithering is whatever this thing is we're seeing. I thought both were the oath, before.

I really really hope it did not contribute to Kairosa's makeup.
>>
No. 67797 ID: 4a328b

>>67794
I remember them saying light was bad as a /feeding/ soul?
>>
No. 67798 ID: 695191

>>67794
>Light bad.
Bad for feeding, otherwise a useful element. Not sure it fits that purpose all that well, though. Or is fitting to us, for that matter.
>>
No. 67799 ID: 18436c

No, Light is bad because THE FUCKING UNCONQUERED SUN USES LIGHT AND SO DOES HALF THE GODS AND IT'S LIKE WAVING A GIGANTIC BANNER SAYING HEY IMA NEW TITAN COME GET SOME

yeah

We should commune with the lunar soul, gain self-awareness, then go hunting for a little ghosty.
>>
No. 67800 ID: 47a120

Light or Dark will also OFFICIALLY make us Holy/Unholy according to divine and titanic law. This means weapons, charms, etc meant to be used on holy/unholy beings will start affecting us.
We were also explicitly warned the dragon shadow is very territorial about darkness element and IIRC the unconquered sun is about light as well.
>>
No. 67801 ID: 47a120

You know what... shame on us for enslaving peregrin with a perma geas. (we could have made it last only until we are ... oh I don't know, twice his SF)
Also this could be an issue with the dragon shadow who feel so strongly about freedom.
>>
No. 67802 ID: 370c40

>>67801
It was that or kill him. He didn't HAVE to choose to continue to live.
>>
No. 67803 ID: 695191

>>67801
Huh, hadn't considered that. Well it's not like we can't cut him loose if we so choose, should he be offended.

Oh and I just had a great idea concerning the dragons shadow. If we end up talking to him, let's casually refer to him as "uncle". It'll be good fun.
>>
No. 67804 ID: 9ee360

>>67791
I would think we're plenty capable of dealing with a mental intrusion we the forces we already have present. And if we need to burn TW, we could spend less than 5 to deal with the problem.

And I think we need a good level of thought and discussion before we just up and make a new deva.
>>
No. 67806 ID: 76b151

I think if we do go for another Deva it should be one to hide our titanic nature. As a coherant being Saulanna is already at 9 SF. That's a huge amount and is probably detectable to anyone paying attention. Just look at the Dragon's Shadow. He we can hopefully strike a bargain with if need be. The gods on the other hand might wish us dead.

My thought was making a Deva with the purpose of stealth and the element of truth. The best lies are those with a grain of truth after all. And what is hiding but lying about where or what you are.
>>
No. 67807 ID: cee89f

....

Maybe DS made a time deva, too? It would redefine him to a degree (which might help him escape true name oaths) and would help him manipulate the time in the underworld? In addition, there was a moment - however brief - where we had to put time back in motion for bringing the souls into us.
>>
No. 67808 ID: ecb49b

I just had a REALLY creepy thought: Just where did Peregrin get the data or whatever to start researching Titan/human fusing?
But a better question might be what he's going to offer us.
Peregrin said something about 'other heros' the dragon had... It might be more than just 'Solars/ Lunars/ Sidereals/ Dragons' he hired-He might give fixes to the Curse on hero soul, in exchange for binding them to him/ some sort of hidden 'tracker chip' that let's him keep an eye on the Hero Soul& possibly give him a back door to the hero...

Too nebulous to guess his plans, but I'm thinking we might want to consider more drastic action...
'If you're not in his way, he'll do you no harm...'
Gah, too much guesswork!
As for a soul to create-Let's table it. I feel like it's risky to start making souls haphazardly, giving how unpleasant unmaking them likly will be.
>>
No. 67809 ID: 52d91f

...I just realized that Kairosa is the Time Being.
>>
No. 67810 ID: 52d91f

Oh, by the way. I don't think we actually need a Light based Deva. Our Hero Soul, after all, is associated with the Moon. Therefore we should be able to get some powers that improve the lighting in here by boosting our Soul Force.
>>
No. 67811 ID: 9ee360

>>67807
Highly unlikely. Kairosa got all that stuff on the time-dragon because she was his successor. She could feel the universe trying to put her back in the spot he left empty, and not quite fitting. If there was another time-being in there, I think she'd have noticed it.

If anything, the thing inside us is likely to be associated with another of TDS's elements- deception, or darkness, or secrets (all elements that might support sneaking and spying). Or hell, maybe desire- if the intruder is providing the source of the emotions bottle (freedom from your desires?).

>deva deva deva
...I don't see why the intruder has to be a deva. Detaching a piece of your soul to go scouting seems a little much. I'd really think some kind of projection, or spirit, or avatar more likely.
>>
No. 67815 ID: 406926

>>67811
>...I don't see why the intruder has to be a deva. Detaching a piece of your soul to go scouting seems a little much.
It only seems a little much because in the human paradigm you only have one soul piece to work with. A Titan has hundreds of thousands of soul pieces and basically uses them for everything- the idea of sending some devas out scouting is no more unusual to it than the idea of sending a few soldiers out scouting would be to a country. When a Titan needs something done, it generally uses a deva to do it.

It certainly wouldn't send a Lord deva, and probably not even a Noble, but I'd consider a common deva a far more likely scenario than a projection or spirit.
>>
No. 67816 ID: 9ee360

Yeah, but a Deva's death changes the Titan! And while a commoner's death might have little effect, they're also relatively weak. Somehow projecting a noble or a lord would seem the better option to me- less risk to you, and the thing scouting is significantly stronger.
>>
No. 67817 ID: cee89f

>>67811

>Highly unlikely. Kairosa got all that stuff on the time-dragon because she was his successor. She could feel the universe trying to put her back in the spot he left empty, and not quite fitting. If there was another time-being in there, I think she'd have noticed it.

... Eh, fair enough, i was thinking about that whole 'manipulates the time of the underworld' thing. Maybe a little too much. The fact we're currently in the underworld may still have something to do with getting through the time-lock, though.

>Detaching a piece of your soul to go scouting seems a little much. I'd really think some kind of projection, or spirit, or avatar more likely.

It doesn't have to be specifically MADE for the purposes of spying on us, it could've just been a very convenient choice. A commoner or noble Deva of the Dragon's stealth soul (don't kid yourself, he probably has one) would work plenty well to stay hidden from a baby titan, even inside it's own body.

It's not like there's any reason to pick anything else. A deva will be undoubtedly loyal, powerful enough to defend itself, and easy to slip in, especially if it's a deva specifically made for stealth or deception. It also may have a link directly to the king of DS, as opposed to say, Akatrina, who would have to relay information.

On our own Devas: I think we should grab a Seeing soul next, as opposed to a stealth soul. If something is inside of us, we need to find it and get rid of it - or at least make sure it won't do us harm.
>>
No. 67822 ID: 952246

This upgrade stuff is dragging on way too long. Can we wrap it up soon?
>>
No. 67823 ID: cee89f

>>67822
Uh, from the looks of it, it IS wrapping up soon >.> we've got our final list and everybody's throwing down their votes on what to spend.

Also, upgrades hasn't been the subject of discussion for THAT long >.>
>>
No. 67824 ID: 406926

>>67822
Unfortunately, as Titan's Will can serve as both a primary resource to let us do basically anything and later as ammunition for our best tricks, I suspect that we will basically be debating how to spend it in one form or another right up until this quest ends.
>>
No. 67827 ID: 3dd384

>Level 1: Detect Will Points/Health Points (1tw)
>Level 2: Detect enemy attack/defense stats (2tw)
>Level 3: Detect Heart's Desire and possibly Malaffections (3tw)

Do these costs include the previous levels, or would Level 3 cost us 6TW all told?
>>
No. 67829 ID: cee89f

>>/quest/495530
>Implying that the dragon's shadow is not a social manipulator
>also implying that a friggen TITAN would be weaker in social combat than a hero who serves him... a socially inclined hero admittedly, but still
>either that, or that the shadow would send something that COULDN'T socially fight us into the ground
>>
No. 67830 ID: 3dd384

Another question: how obvious would Save the Moment be if used in social combat?
>>
No. 67831 ID: 354299

>>67829
>also implying that a friggen TITAN would be weaker in social combat than a hero who serves him... a socially inclined hero admittedly, but still
The whole point of minions to have someone to delegate actions you are unable to do. Even Titans, I would think. Perhaps something in his nature prevents him from doing something, that his heroes could do...?

Well, in this situation, the objection is pointless: I highly doubt a being centered on lying is inept at social situations.
>>
No. 67832 ID: 3dd384

>>/quest/495463
DS's devas wouldn't look like DS. It seems more likely to me that it's an inner-world manifestation of some magical effect running off of Ophidian essence.
>>
No. 67834 ID: 268ba5

>>67817
>I think we should grab a Seeing soul next, as opposed to a stealth soul.
Is a stealth purposed soul of Awareness legitimate? Because that may well fill both roles for us. Like how Kairosa has all this fundamentally non-feeding stuff.
>>
No. 67835 ID: cee89f

>>67831
>The whole point of minions to have someone to delegate actions you are unable to do.

UNABLE? Uh, no? The whole point of having minions is to get as much done as possible in as many places at once, and/or to overwhelm with sheer numbers.

And what does this have to do with anything you quoted?

>Well, in this situation, the objection is pointless: I highly doubt a being centered on lying is inept at social situations.

... That exactly what I just said. >.>

>>67834
...Except that the whole point of giving a soul a purpose is to ensure that they are awesome in that particular area by gearing their powers towards that purpose. Kairosa has many abilities that have nothing to do with her Feeding purpose, but her best and most effective deal in energy management and feeding. (As she says herself, she is that aspect of time that consumes) Everything else is just an afterthought (admittedly very COOL afterthoughts, but still). Making a stealth Deva with the awareness element could very easily create a deva that finds it impossible to reveal anything. Remember how Wordblood described stopping meaning as similar to strangling himself?

I mean, i like the concept of a stealth deva with awareness as an element, but you're proposing creating it to fulfill a primary goal OTHER than stealth.

Creating a Seeing soul would get a definite result (assuming anything we could do WOULD get results) and since we're creating it specifically so we can find something that's hiding, we'd pick something very conducive to seeing. (my brain is starting to succumb to sleepiness - this is probably much more incoherent than I think it is)

Didn't we largely settle on a Mask stealth deva, anyway? >.> Or at least agree that we need to talk to our current devas about it?
>>
No. 67836 ID: 3dd384

I have a lot to say about my votes, so I thought I'd make a post over here to say it.

First off: we've got a snake to catch. As far as I'm concerned, that's our #1 priority right now - a foreign body in our inner world is at best a spy and at worst a danger to our independence and agency, and it's probably only trapped here as long as time isn't flowing outside. Self-Awareness is our best chance of finding it, and will certainly help if it's more than just a spy.

As for dealing with the Headless Horseman back in reality, the main thing I noticed is that our offensive options are slim. We're not allowed to use magic to convince her of things, and in any case most of our options for new powers are tactical or defensive - geared around comprehension and information control.

Fortunately, we have a sworn servant who isn't bound by those restrictions and seems to have mojo on Akatrina's level. So let's embrace the role of the mastermind. Set it up so we can communicate under-the-table with Peregrine (Bond of Understanding), and then take the time to watch what discussions she's emotionally weak or strong on (World Reading 1), what she's aiming at with her arguments (Seeing the Tongue Slip), and what kind of arguments from Peregrine are most likely to give us an advantage at this stage in the discussion (Forked Path Oracle). Limit use of Moon Power to boosting our defensive stats (which should not be covered by our agreement).

Obviously, we can't neglect future growth either, and as has been demonstrated in the charts upthread, investment now pays dividends quickly. I suggest increasing Will Generation to level 3, earmarking the proceeds for increasing Saulanna's Soul Force (which, based on my budget's remaining TW, should be possible one day from now if we aren't forced to make any snap purchases).

So! In short, here's how I'd suggest we spend our TW:

[1 TW] Self-Awareness

Then, unless something goes wrong,

[1 TW] World Reading 1
[1 TW] Bond of Understanding
[1 TW] Seeing the Tongue Slip

[1 TW] Forked Path Oracle
[3 TW] Will Generation 3 -> [Earmark: Saulanna Soul Force 4]

with 2 TW remaining.
>>
No. 67839 ID: 14bafe

I'm in favor of spending a TW to locate the presence in here, and rewinding it after we know where and what it is.

Also, I like the idea of a Seeing soul of Darkness and a Stealth soul of Light.
Being able to see what is supposed to be hidden, and hiding in plain sight.
>>
No. 67841 ID: 370c40

>>67836
We can't use HERO POWERS to manipulate her.

Anything that isn't a Moon power is fair game, and any defensive Moon powers are also acceptable.

Also if we are going to make a Stealth deva I'm still supporting Masks, since it was the only element we were getting any kind of consensus on, it's very appropriate in theme, and certain things we really need a deva to cover are clearly under the domain of Masks.

>>67827
It costs 6 to raise it from 0 to 3. Those costs are for each individual level.
>>
No. 67842 ID: 893bed

>>67841
Well, okay, yeah. But:
1) we don't really have any titanic magic for convincing people of things, other than generic boost stuff, and
2) if we use titanic power around her it has to be in a non-obvious way, and in the past "boosts" by other parties have shown up in the social combat interface, which indicates that everyone knows when they get used (though not by how much). Using offensive powers she can detect when we've sworn not to use Lunar offensive powers would be a great way to tip her off that we have non-Lunar mojo (which is what we're trying to avoid, remember).
>>
No. 67843 ID: cee89f

>>67839
Not to be an ass about it, but...

You know there are about a thousand other things we could use to hide in plain sight besides Light that aren't going to require the severe twisting that Light will, and aren't as likely to step on the toes of pretty much every active celestial god in creation?

Also, how would one see with darkness? Judging from how Kairosa describes herself ("the aspect of time that consumes") this would either mean you could hide from it by stepping into the light, that the soul could only see the darkness where it looked, or that darkness would spread wherever it looked. None of which seems very conducive to our current situation.

>>67836
It could be the sleepyness talking but i like this idea.

Also, flip on the lights! Go Lunar exaltation!!
>>
No. 67844 ID: 1ec411

>>67843
Sleep on it. If it still seems good in the morning, a vote of support in the quest thread would be quite appreciated :)
>>
No. 67850 ID: 47a120

>>67839
We were EXPLICITLY WARNED that the shadow dragon is extremely territorial over the element of darkness/shadow!

You remember the shadow dragon, that badass dude who made sorcery exist and broke the celestial calendar to usurp control over the passage of time and only titan to ever escape imprisonment and transformed his wife into a major goddess twilight something who is now converting both solar and deathknight exalts into twilight exalts and single handedly saved creation by defeating the deathlords and altered reality to make soulsteel not work...

We were also warned that using the light element will likely upset the unconquered sun AND the dragon shadow... and actually using shadow will also upset the gods a lot making us unholy by divine law so... basically using either of those elements is a hostile act against BOTH the gods AND the shadow dragon.

Speaking of which, if it is him in the shadows looking at us attacking him with light rather then calling out to him for a parley seems unwise.
>>
No. 67854 ID: cee89f

>>67844
Sorry mate, already used my posts =p

>>67850
I would just like to point out that we only know he broke the UNDERWORLD'S calendar - not neccessary the one for all creation
>>
No. 67859 ID: 491910

I'd say that's The Dragon's Shadow himself. He is "a being that is outside time" - at least in the Underworld and during night in Shadowylands, so our inner time isn't a barrier to him. He's also the source of Peregrin's ability to use shadows as a connection from one place to another. All he needed was a "beacon" to know where our inner world was, and he could reach it from his own inner world through the - dare I say - ultimate darkness that surrounds both. Akatrina's whole debate was a ruse - what she was after was to make any kind of oath just to locate our inner world.

So yes, the jig is up. Let's stop playing dumb and speak to our big brother.
>>
No. 67860 ID: 3dd384

>>/quest/495635
>>/quest/495661
>>/quest/495668
>>67850
>>67859

So on the topic of the interloper...

There's a big part of me that thinks the time to be polite ended the moment they showed up in our inner world without permission. Also, changing the environment of your own mind in a relatively simple way seems like it wouldn't be some huge affront - it's not like DS-based stuff dissolves under the light of a full moon (which is what we've got in here - not sunlight).

Also, I'm like 95% sure it's not the Dragon's Shadow himself, so much as some magical effect that uses his Essence, which is manifesting in a DS-like form because this is a foetal world-body and it'd make sense.

That said, if it is the Dragon's Shadow in person, we are potentially fucked no veto at this point no matter what we do - we have no chance of going up against a full-grown Titan in any kind of unambiguous confrontation. Our best hope for getting out of this situation is to make nice and hope he likes us.

>>/quest/495682
Taking Will Generation now means that if this stuff drags on for more than a day we can start adding abilities immediately. I favored Essence 4 because it's useful for both of our goals (extra HP in social combat, extra leeway for upgrades and industry in here), but it could just as easily be your favorite Social power from that list.

>>67854
I guess that's what I get for arriving late in a game where you can't change your votes.

Thankfully it seems like most of the key elements of my plan are included in other peoples' votes - the only part I'd like that people aren't voting for is Bond of Understanding, and we might be able to get by without it, depending on whether Seeing the Slipped Tongue is enough for Peregrin to indicate stuff to us without the other folks at the table knowing about it. I really don't want to rely on that because it feels like if someone is perceptive enough they might be able to notice it (as opposed to telepathy, which is pretty safe from snooping). Just saying that if we don't get it the plan might still work.
>>
No. 67862 ID: cf39f2

Hyuuu~We're a rabbit, dodging and ducking at every new thing.
I bet Saulanna's gonna turn into a stealth soul of some sort, based in hiding, by my guess...
We're constantly feeling too weak to engage things directly, too weak to do what we want-I'm betting Saulanna's going to end up a nervous, jumpy person- basically like how she was with the Lunars, but at ALL times, and always feeling 'out of her element'... I fear she might just want to run away from everything, run till no-one's chasing her...
Being a Titan? Means she can't trust Luna. Being in the Shadowlands, means being caught in the Dragon's machinations... And if she can't even trust her own world-body space's sanctity...I predict a mental meltdown, in 3, 2, 1....
>>
No. 67864 ID: 3dd384

>>67862
>Being a Titan? Means she can't trust Luna.
I thought we established repeatedly that this probably wasn't going to be a big deal?
>>
No. 67865 ID: 3dd384

>>67864
Nevermind, looks like we've gone back and forth about this a lot as things developed.
>>
No. 67868 ID: cee89f

>>67864
We established that Luna wasn't /as likely/ to be hostile, and there is support for coming clean to Luna. But that there is NO problem has been rebuffed both by posters and our devas.

But that doesn't matter, he's pointing out that that was how we (and by extension Saulanna) have reacted to the situation, by everything from fear to tell Luna to outright refusal.
>>
No. 67869 ID: 370c40

>>67862
This is ridiculous. The only hiding we've done since the beginning of the quest was running from Peregrin initially. And then we fought him, and won. Not telling Luna about being a Titan is just listening to our devas and has nothing to do with hiding. Noone is even trying to hide from the Dragon's Shadow, since apparently he is already in our internal world, or at least some portion of his essence. And the previous holders of our exaltation were all sneaky types according to Kairosa, which is not a bad thing, at all.
>>
No. 67895 ID: 268ba5

>>67835
>I mean, i like the concept of a stealth deva with awareness as an element, but you're proposing creating it to fulfill a primary goal OTHER than stealth.
Not necessarily. A stealth deva of awareness, if a valid element, should not only keep us from being seen/noticed/felt/divined but also let us know if something DOES notice us. It wouldn't scry around or anything a seeing soul proper could, but anything reactive or evasive along those lines can work. It's like having a Defensive purposed soul of a combative element, which wouldn't be geared towards offensive actions at all but could kick ass while tanking. Of course I could be wrong in the combination working at all but if it did that should be how. Perception as an element could also work as well for this, and have more social application maybe? It's a good angle to explore at any rate.

>Didn't we largely settle on a Mask stealth deva, anyway?
The idea was seen to have merit as well as style, but Jukashi himself implied it was a bad idea in irc. Not "primal" enough, I presume. I'm not sure what would be more basic along the same idea. Facade, Aspect, Semblance, Shroud, Veil?

>>67859
>big brother
No no no. We're a child titan, he is our UNCLE.

>>67862
I dunno about that, right now there are just too many fundamental unknowns and risks to consider. Once we know more about the world and get these meddlesome champions off our back we should be more proactive.
>>
No. 67898 ID: 268ba5

>I mean, i like the concept of a stealth deva with awareness as an element, but you're proposing creating it to fulfill a primary goal OTHER than stealth.
Not necessarily. It's like having a battle element of a defensive purpose, which while bad at offensive actionds can kick ass when tanking. Reactive, defensive. With Awareness as a stealth deva would not only prevent being noticed but be aware of who or what did see us and how. Probably.

>Didn't we largely settle on a Mask stealth deva, anyway?
Jukashi implied it as bad idea in irc, not primal enough probably. I'm not sure what would be better along the same lines though. Semblance, Shroud, Facade, Aspect, Guise?

>>67859
>big brother
No no no. We're a child titan, that makes him our Uncle.
>>
No. 67900 ID: 268ba5

>but you're proposing creating it to fulfill a primary goal OTHER than stealth.
Not necessarily. It wouldn't scry, just tell us if we,re being seen.

>Mask
Jukashi implied it as bad idea in irc, not primal enough probably. Maybe use Semblance, Shroud, Facade, Aspect, Guise?

>>67859
>big brother
No no no. We're a child titan, that makes him our Uncle.
>>
No. 67904 ID: 76b151

>>67862
I believe its been strongly hinted at that our Element is Will and our Purpose hasn't manifested yet.

As for a stealth and a sight Deva I'm paticular fond of the idea that instead of Light and Dark we go with some other pairing that are oppisites that don't have such strong connections to already set paradigms like holy and unholy...

Something like Truth and Deception.
>>
No. 67905 ID: 76b151

>>67862
I believe its been strongly hinted at that our Element is Will and our Purpose hasn't manifested yet.

As for a stealth and a sight Deva I'm paticular fond of the idea that instead of Light and Dark we go with some other pairing that are oppisites that don't have such strong connections to already set paradigms like holy and unholy...

Something like Truth and Deception.
>>
No. 67906 ID: 76b151

>>67862
I believe its been strongly hinted at that our Element is Will and our Purpose hasn't manifested yet.

As for a stealth and a sight Deva I'm paticular fond of the idea that instead of Light and Dark we go with some other pairing that are oppisites that don't have such strong connections to already set paradigms like holy and unholy...

Something like Truth and Deception.
>>
No. 67908 ID: 3dd384

We need a new thread. This one is so big that kusaba can't update the HTML anymore - posts are getting lost.
>>
No. 67910 ID: 76b151

you aren't kidding, 3100 posts is causing me ot get an out of memory error when I try to post.
>>
No. 67913 ID: cee89f

On the tentacles - there are some around Saulanna, too - they're a bit easier to see since they go over the few gray areas in our inner world...
>>
No. 67914 ID: cee89f

On the tentacles - there are some around Saulanna, too - they're a bit easier to see since they go over the few gray areas in our inner world...
>>
No. 67915 ID: cee89f

...A bit off-topic: Any one else having trouble posting in Dis?
>>
No. 67917 ID: 520816

Hello! It's great to see that this story is still going on.

It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?

Seems like Saulanna's motivation so far has been to remain independent and not be manipulated. If she ever hangs out with the Lu -- uh, Moon Heroes, she could learn about a (massively hypocritical) project of theirs that's meant to help everyone become independent of Heroic meddling. Might be a worthy cause.
>>
No. 67918 ID: 520816

Hello! It's great to see that this story is still going on.

It's probably already been brought up before, but notice how the selection of slaver souls is going from "outright evil" to "only tangentially involved in slavery" to see how far Saulanna will go?

Seems like Saulanna's motivation so far has been to remain independent and not be manipulated. If she ever hangs out with the Lu -- uh, Moon Heroes, she could learn about a (massively hypocritical) project of theirs that's meant to help everyone become independent of Heroic meddling. Might be a worthy cause.
>>
No. 67939 ID: 52d91f
File 136178119174.jpg - (82.62KB , 600x500 , Tentacles1.jpg )
67939

Welp.
>>
No. 67940 ID: 52d91f
File 136178128132.png - (44.04KB , 600x500 , Tentacles1.png )
67940

Welp. I'm worried.
>>
No. 67941 ID: 52d91f

I don't think we can post images in this thready anymore.
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