>>62613
well once tattooed our ability to GET titan's will would be basically gone, it would take AGES to get enough to do anything about the tats.

>>62620
I'm not in favor of getting the tattoos or anything, but your specific complaint is wrong.

The tattoos would essentially lock Saulanna's form- preventing us from spending TW to modify her body (so beauty increases would be out, for example). Also, the tattoos might arrange themselves to reveal our titanic nature.

None of that would stop us from getting TW, directly.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62630
There's also the potential risk that, if we go, the tattoos won't do jack, the Lunars will notice, and they will become suspicious. The real danger in that one is that we have NO IDEA what they would assume or how they'd react, but in almost all cases it would be bad.

Well, yeah. We're not getting tattoos. They would be really bad for us in pretty much every way.

besides, we need a beauty increase at somepoint anyway, that diplomat lady has a higher rating than us, this will NOT STAND

>>62647
That might just be the clothes. I am not ashamed to say that that dress/corset/thing is hot =3

I see a number of suggestions flying around taking only the element itself into account. If my understanding is correct (and do correct me if it is not) this is a bit of an oversight. We are specifically creating a feeding soul. All our feeding so far has been consumptive with souls and texts utterly devoured. Creating a feeding soul based on civilization, for example, won't just give us a soul with civilization-themed and oriented powers. (Though it will do that.) It will result in a devourer of civilization, making civilization our main power source. That's not to say we'll automatically turn into Ma-Ha-Suchi. It'll also be in our interest to seed and nourish civilizations before the harvest. Whether we'll feed in a ravenous, all-consuming frenzy or in a more careful, sustainable fashion will be our choice, after all.

Interpeting the suggestions so far in this light:

Devourer of Civilization: Lunars have long been in the civilization-seeding business, and Creation holds plenty of dysfunctional civilization to devour. Thematically it seems to fit well with our archeologist past and Wordblood's communication. Do we want to be deeply involved with the civilizations of Creation?
Devourer of Desire: This seems like it could turn creepy fast, regardless of whether we do this in a crass or complicated way. Feeding upon people's desires is what the fair folk do. Do we want to take after them?
Devourer of Light: So far we've spent all of our time in the shadows. And with a death hero as our vassal and the Dragon's shadow one of the major players of the world this seems likely to continue. Do we wish to hunt the light?
Devourer of Racoons: Cannibalism is always a fine choice. A racoon-rich diet is bound to be good for our souls. But will it be good for our cholesterol?
Devourer of Time: I'm not sure how one goes about feeding on time. Perhaps power will simply accumulate gradually, or perhaps we'll start doing strange things to the way it flows. Given the Dragon's use of such, it could certainly come in handy. Thematically, it fits with our penchant for old things. What does it mean to devour time?
Devourer of Will: Devouring will seems like something that would be frowned upon by people who don't live in names. It seems as if it would bring up some of the same issues as desire. Can we put such hunger to a use we consider constructive?

>>62707
You're oversimplifying it.

The element of the feeder soul is not just what it eats. It's potentially what it works with, makes, eats, is.

>>57924
>>57928
These posts here sort of give an idea of the somewhat unpredictable complexity of how the feeder purpose might interact with elements.

Additionally- the purpose of the feeder isn't even just to consume / produce energy. It's meant to regulate and manage energy as well.

>>62707
>devourer
But here's the thing: while a feeding soul of, say, the civilization element could perhaps consume that in some way, it doesn't have to. They aren't just about eating mortal souls, they are producers of titans will by any available means. It isn't about feeding on things it's about feeding us. It may just help us grow stronger around civilization, and gain more power as it spreads and grows. A soul or power related to the feeders element should give a greater return, but it wouldn't matter nearly as much as the raw power involved.

I think what we should be looking for are elements not only in our theme, but that don't overlap with the aspects of other titans or the gods. I'm not sure what the danger is there, anything from being less effective to getting those beings direct attention. But I'd rather not risk finding out.

>>62711
I see absolutely no reasons why Saulanna should care about any overlap between her souls and that of other Titans (and gods, but don't count because Saulanna is so far above them, metaphysically -- except for the Incarna, but their really weird). Everything is going to be expressed through the lens of Saulanna, after all, and the aspects of other Titans are expressed through the lens of those other Titans. There is nothing to be fought over, no finite pie that must be split between Titans. Why should having souls with similar Elements somehow inhibit Saulanna from attracting attention from other Titans? And, furthermore, why should Saulanna care at all?

>>62707
Jukashi has stipulated that Feeding Souls can also gain power through things SPREAD by the user - For example, if our feeding soul was based on Death, we could gain power by committing genocide (a la Abyssals) or by 'consuming' death to bring people back to life. A Raccoon feeder could devour raccoons, or increase their population by a significant margin. A light feeder could consume light, or glow brightly.

Wordblood has consumed in part because he is the very concept of Communication (which books essentially are) so he's essentially drawing that essence back into himself. If he were a feeding deva, he could also gain power by, for example, creating the Internet.

...

...Wait.

...Oh my gooooooooooods WE'RE GONNA MAKE THE INTERNET!! =D =D =D WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WE GOTTA WEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTAWEGOTTA-

>>62717
The Internet was already created. It got destroyed (via explosion, cannibalization, decay, mind-jacking, devoured, polymorphed, etc.).

Also, it is worthless in a non-developed society.

>>62717

Titan of Communication + Civilization = Titan of the internet?

...makes a shocking amount of sense, really. We bring in a new age of civilization, unparallelled communication and connectiveness, and rules over it as a goddess in unchallengeable in her element. We both better the world, and secure our position by making ourself indispensable to it.

>worthless in a non-developed society.
That's why we build a developed society. Out of magic, libraries, racoons, whatever. There's no need to recreate our tubes and screens model to the letter.

>>62719
I don't know that civilization enters into it...

Communication + TUBES, all you need for the internet

A deva of the CONDUIT element--tubes, pipes, fountains...

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62718
Then it's not impossible and we can RE-make it!
We now have a legitimate goal, and another reason to pick Civilization for our feeding soul. S*** just got REAL O_O

>>62719
Sounds like a plan! WHO'S WITH ME?! =D

Seriously though, Wordblood isn't a feeding soul. I don't think we can change that.

...Can we?

>>62721
Well there's reason we can't pick up more devas as we go that fit the theme and facilitate our purpose as we go.

Also- people who wanted to build a library? We're essentially setting out to build a world-wide, magically networked one.

>>62727
I'm going to assume we could, but he wouldn't be Wordblood anymore afterwards. (I also kind of suspect something like rebuilding existing Devas would be a lot more expensive than conceiving new ones).

It seems a poorly advised course of action, to me.

I'm really not quite sure what you fellows mean by Civilization, to be honest.

Do you mean, like, social/cultural development? Because, I have to say since I'm studying anthropology, the hierarchical view of primitive to civilized fell out of favour in like, the eighties. And if I did allow it, it would be more like Culture, and it would refer to like art and language and ritual and such, and be dangerously close to Wordblood.

Or do you mean structural development, like the creation of bureaucracy, division of labour, building cities and governments? That would be more like... Structure, or Order.

Technological development? That'd be more Technology, or Artifice or something.

A blend of all the above would be spreading the net kinda wide.

I'm not certain I approve of "Civilization" in any case. I mean, you can make a case for it, and you do have one canonical Titan who's clearly got a city inside him somehow, but, as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form. Like, Wordblood is Communication, but that's sort of too refined a term. You know what it's going for, though. The idea of words having power, or the spiritual significance of a person's voice, is very old and universal. "Civilization"... not really feeling that, so much? It's just not...

... Y'know.

...

... primordial.

>>62730
>It's just not...
>... Y'know.
>... primordial.
Good thing they're Titans now instead of Primordials, then. Heh.

>as I think I said earlier in this thread, your Elements have to be elemental. Primal. Sort of. Solid, real, something's always going to exist in some form.
Seriously, though, let's take a look at your list of sample elements from >>59000, where this was discussed.
>Gaia: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wood, ??? and ???
>Autochthon: Steam, Metal, Lightning, Oil, Crystal, Smoke
Okay, Gaia and Autochthon are all physical things/reactions, nothing surprising here. These Elements seem to fall into the general category of "stuff", which is as Elemental as you can get.

>He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word: Words (duh), Blood (duhh), Thought, Legacy, Beauty, Creation, others?
>The Dragon's Shadow: Darkness, Deception, Freedom, Fear, Desire, Cunning, Change, Death, ???
But these two Titans are significantly more interesting and flexible. Some of their Elements move away from "Stuff" and more toward "Qualities", or even "Processes".

In particular, I'm thinking on Legacy and Deception here. How can you have Legacy without a past to hand down, and parties to do the handing? It's an action, a type of interaction. Likewise with Deception- it's an interaction, not a stand-alone item; it can only exist when there are two sapient parties in play and meaningful communication between them. As Elements, they've moved away from being wholly independent things and toward something more like fundamental components of a larger system.

Likewise with Civilization. It's not some kind of elemental "stuff", no; it doesn't have to be, because Elements are not limited to that. They can define "processes"; in this case, the Element proposed is something like the definition of "groups of beings bringing organization to themselves and their world".

And I can't speak for others' perceptions, but I'd consider that pretty primordial anyway.

When I think Civilization, I think it's something between culture and structure. Or perhaps a blend of the two. It by definition is a place of culture, but whereas my personal perceptions of culture as a force is something fluid and changing, I see civilization as less so.

When I think of culture as a force, I think the ideas of the people, the adaptions they make and the way they change just from interacting with other cultures.

When I think civilization as a force, I think faceless legions marching in waves, civilians toiling away, towering solid buildings. And I see it surrounded by the chaos of more wild untamed lands. Civilization as a force to me is like a wave of urban society.

I doubt this is how others have been imagining it, but as a possible element of a titan, this is how I see it as a possibility. It's a specific type of structure or order, one which has a relationship with culture, as each permutation of the force has a symbiotic relationship with at least one permutation of the force of culture, and the culture(s) it has are most definitely not receptive to others. I assume Szoreny probably has a Deva with the element of a forest, so I'll compare it to a forest having a selection of trees that define it and make it qualify as a forest, and those combination of trees and other plants may effect the way other plants influence the forest. The combination would make life unhabitable to certain other trees if they were to have their seeds planted within', some trees would flourish(adding to the whole of the forest), others would steal the niche of some of the trees as steadily replace them, while others may be poisonous to the forest. But the forest is not any of the individual trees, even if it's composed of only one type of tree, just like it's not the packs of wolves or the migratory birds that dwell there at any given moment. Each of those might be a force of their own, but the force Szoreny represents i the slow ever continual encroachment of a forest, not any of the individual forces within'.

That was a bit longer of an analogy then I intended, but I hope I was able to properly express my point that the forces primordials represent often are a force that contains other forces. And while I certainly don't know specifically how you're determining the elements of other primordials, I'd imagine The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy don't all have a Deva whose element is order or structure as opposed to something more specific. I suppose I view Civilization as a choice as something like Wordblood is communication, but more specifically words.

>>62730
I'm going to assume that, since things like deception and communication are valid, to be primal it only has to exist as long as there is life intelligent enough to do either or both of those things.

Here's the way I see it: civilization refers to community, the growth of community, the relationship between members of that community, etc etc... And if we widen the definition enough it could refer to things like Wolf Packs.

Keep in mind: While popular consciousness is that Civilization refers to advanced societies, Civilization also refers to:
3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4.
the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5.
cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.

4 and 5 are the important ones for this point. Civilization isn't just about towering skyscrapers, the internet and industrial revolutions: it also refers to the advancement of thought and culture. Thought advances in all living creatures, all the time. Wolf packs exist because the mind of the wolf evolved to the point where it was intelligent enough to hunt in groups, and they're able to communicate because they can LEARN how to from birth. IE, their thought processes become more refined as time goes on.

Granted, that's a stretch. A veeeery big stretch. But considering that we're literally an embodiment of order in the universe, I'd say a stretch is close enough.

>>62732
... What he said. >.>

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

Civilization seems like a stretch to me too, to be honest. It's more of the end-product, in my mind. If you want what it has, you have to shoot for a more fundamental concept, one that allows for civilizations to exist, perhaps. It would fit the feeder soul's role as manager of energy supplies and the like.

Sadly I currently have no ideas due to lack of sleep. Communion maybe? Eh.

What about a Feeder of Souls?

HalfTangible 2012/10/28(Sun)13:53 No. 62746 ID: cee89f
File 135145761920.png - (6.41KB , 207x203 , 126075124944.png )

>>62742
Seriously?

Mate, we already get energy from souls. We don't need a feeder soul to specifically feed on them! Besides, we're already having morality debates over whether or not it's okay to eat those ghosts!

>>62732
>Legacy and Deception

"Legacy" is the marks left by the past. A valley is the legacy left by a river on the mountainside, or limestone is the legacy of generations of tiny creatures dying under the sea. Deception, similarly, is whenever something is made to look other than it is: a stick insect, the reflection of the moon in the water, et cetera. At least, that's how I was using them.

>>62734
>The Demon City, The Endless Desert, and The Principle of Hierarchy

Well, the form a Titan takes doesn't necessarily draw directly from the Elements that compose them. I mean, indirectly it does, of course; but for example, The Ebon Dragon takes the form of a Dragon, yet that doesn't require him to have a soul that has a Dragon Element. He takes that form because of the cumulative metaphorical resonance that is best represented by something that is slithery and snakey and powerful.

>>62734
>>62736

As far as I can express it (words are sort of failing me), you guys' intent with "Civilization" could perhaps be described as "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". And that would have the mythic quality necessary: it's the old Gilgamesh-and-Enkidu, hun-and-po, superego-and-id, dog-and-wolf dichotomy that has a strong symbolic resonance. I'd allow that.

So long as you're aware, though, that that concept of Civilization would fall under the domain of the Unconquered Sun, and maybe a few other entities like Autochthon; and it would be implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia and suchlike. Of course, that doesn't mean they're necessarily hostile (UCS and Luna are choicest bros, after all), but it'd still be significant.

And, perhaps more importantly, it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.

Having a voice in our heads tempering our more wild natures might be useful...

...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing. What about Knowledge or Information?

Okay... Hmm. Put in that light, I think I'm souring on civilization. Going back to time. That works with everything, and being able to reskill sounds awesome.

The elements and souls thing is a little confusing to me. But that's okay, because I only really need to know one thing.

Jukashi, what combination of souls, elements, titan's will expenditures, moon powers, power words, skills, and attributes will get us Raccoonbending? Since Saulanna's spirit shape is a Raccoon, would this be the kind of thing we need to wait for a Fetich Soul for? Raccoons aren't all that... 'elemental' I guess, but they're elemental to Saulanna!

>>62750
>...Then again, opposing our adoptive mother seems like something we SHOULDN'T be doing.
As Jukashi just pointed out, this kind of "opposition" doesn't mean that the forces involved will be inherently hostile to one another, or even stop us from having good relations. It does mean that we'll never grow into a Luna-clone, but we weren't going for that anyway. In fact, of the four examples of dichotomy he gave, no less than three of them are examples of something necessary in order to get the most out of the other- opposed but complementary forces. In that light, I don't see implicit opposition to Gaia or Luna as a problem.

More of a problem is this:
>it could set up a dissonance within Saulanna herself, since then her lunar Hero Soul's essence would be the antithesis of her Feeding Soul's essence.
This sounds ominous- but at the same time, the phrasing makes it clear that while it's a risk, it's not an insurmountable one. And I think that resolving it comes right back to the above; it's all about the spin you put on things. It's not necessarily matter and antimatter here; it's potentially Gilgamesh and Enkidu- closest of friends. Hun and po- two halves of what makes a full human.

Lunar and civilization souls, perhaps?

>>62753
Jukashi, can we get a ruling (or, if a ruling isn't possible, word from wordblood) on whether or not raising our Hero's Soul into a Deva is something we can actually do at some point?

Because that with a Civ deva would do wonders for a sorta Id-SuperEgo dichotomy.

>>62754

No, you can't have a ruling. Neither Wordblood nor Saulanna herself have any real knowledge of how Hero Souls work, so it would be metaknowledge.

I'm sorry, but every time I see this image
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/src/134433101734.png
I can only think that the UCS is really angry at Saulanna's terrible blowjob.

>>62761
Given Lunars' stereotypical solution to everything and Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio, I originally thought that was exactly what the image meant in context.


I still do, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

On the subject of random thoughts, I keep reading UCS as GCS, which is short for giant cave spider. I have perhaps played too much Dwarf Fortress.

I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.

>>62763
>Saulanna's being new to everything including fellatio
That's terrible!

We should eat a woman good at sex before attempting to sleep with anyone.

>>62769

First reaction: How much do we really need to know? Insert A into B, repeat until done >.>

Second: >eat a woman good at sex...
*snrk*

>>62767

At this point we probably will. But as Wordblood pointed out, there's going to be a lot of choices regarding this feeding soul - what element it's tied to, what it does, what it will be for.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>get good at sex
Worldliness doesn't cover that? :V

>I think you all worry too much. Make the feeding soul and get on with your lives.
To be fair, the pace at which we dither around discussing possibilities versus taking action really isn't up to us.

>>62773
...

Come to think of it, what exactly ARE we doing in the short term? Going down into the dungeon, i believe?

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62776
That, and then potentially followed by another bout of agonizing over soul eating if Saulanna stops to give us a chance to argue over it, eating it anyways, and then making the feeder soul. (Actually, wait, I can't remember if we still have enough TW to make the deva without feeding. The agonizing might come after, not before).

we have just enough to make the feeder first. so hopefully the lightshow will be kept down to a minimum.

>>62748
>>implicitly opposed to beings like Luna and Gaia
What about Civilization, not as a an opposition to Nature, but as an equal but different entity. A Civilization is a living breathing thing. It hungers, it lusts, it grows. It fights it's rivals, it learns and it adapts. I think that's a very primordial and conceptual view of Civilization, yet one that isn't inherently opposed to Luna (might still possibly be to Gaia, but meh).

Obviously we should make a feeder soul of Harmony. Obviously.

>Deva of harmony
...so basically then we'd shift from being a lunar to a harmonixer?

>>62843
I need to ask you WHY it's obvious. So no, it's NOT obvious.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

>>62847
You rather don't need to ask me. But you did, so I'll answer: I was being sarcastic.

However, it isn't a terrible concept. Harmony can be seen as the collection of smaller pieces working in parallel. Not necessarily cooperating, but at least moving in the same direction. In music, notes or chords. In nature, prey and predator. In society, prince and pauper. It doesn't necessarily have to be idyllic, or for every facet to compliment every other, so long as the system works, as a whole. It would be Luna/UCS neutral, and fairly ideal for a soul meant to manage resources among our souls. Fits our actions up till now decently as well.

But then, there's a bunch of ambiguity with the definitions of "Harmony", so whatever.

>>62849
Actually, I think Harmony is one of the most antithetical things against Luna suggest so far. Luna is the iconoclast, the rebel, the outsider. Harmony, as you describes it is far more in opposition to Luna than most other things.

"Desire" and "WIll" are pretty similar. Both of them are something that someone wants, and chooses to work towards. At least, that's how I meant it when I suggested Desire. Perhaps there's a more accurate word to use for it?

Someone was worried that choosing "Desire" might lead to Saulanna losing control of it, but it's not so much about feeling desire as it is about commanding it, and making it do subject to Saulanna's will, which is something she has been very keen on doing. She would be a metaphorical lock and key which chooses when Desire is fulfilled, and when it has to wait.

>Harmony
That's a good concept, but I don't think it would suit our Feeding Soul very well.

You do have to remember to save some Elements for later.

>>62865
Not really - we only get one element for this soul, no matter how many we suggest, so we'll still have all these others later.

>>62873

What I mean is, some Elements may be better used with another Purpose, so you shouldn't "waste" them. Like maybe some day all the Deathlords and their armies will burst loose again, or the Dragon's Shadow will get super mad at your for some reason, and then you'll wish you'd saved the Light element for a holy warrior deva instead of using it to feed with? Or Desire might be better as a seducty social deva, or Civilization for a crafty-makey-buildstuff deva. That sort of thing.

>>62876
This seems to imply that once Saulanna creates a Soul with some Element, she cannot create another Soul with the same Element. Is that correct?

>>62878
Not only that, but devas will murder each other if they have significantly overlapping Purposes and/or Elements. See >>57785. They're possessive about it, likely all the more so because even if the Lord devas of fairly similar elements get along they're likely to have Noble or Common devas later which don't.

>>62880
And they might beat each other to death if their elements and/or purpose come into conflict too greatly with one another.

We're going to have a delicate balance of building an inner kingdom that doesn't suffer either from ideological overlap or opposition.

Because it is getting to close to voting time and I didn't really say it in one place before, here is my argument in favor of Will as the element of our feeding soul:

(Theoretical) advantages of Will:
- First and foremost, our main goal in creating a feeding soul is to have a better way to generate and manage Titan's Will. You might object at this point by saying that the name 'Titan's Will' might be a metaphor, but names in this setting have power, so the chances are quite slim that Will would not influence Titan's Will*. Boosting our new soul's primary purpose is one of the most useful things we can do for it for obvious reasons. Once we have established that an element of Will helps processes relating to Titan's Will, it is fairly straightforward that directly boosting our new soul's primary purpose is just about the most useful sort of boost there is.
- Will, both as an element of humanity and as itself in particular is suited for retaining our connection to humanity and sanity in general.
- The previous point is especially relevant because every Moon Hero and Sun Hero (presumably including ourself) suffer from a titanic curse that causes them to periodically lose their self-control**. Power to boost willpower would therefore be extremely useful both for ourself and for other Heroes we might gain as allies.
- Will would also help a lot with convincing and not being convinced in social combat, for obvious reasons.

* We should of course ask Wordblood about this to be sure, but I am confident that this should work to at least some extent. If I can ask Wordsblood that question right here that would be great.
** This eventually got so bad that it was the main cause of the end of the Solar's rule of the world.

Anyone wanna help me draft up pros and cons for this list?

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light
Cons: Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

>>62886
Technically, they're two different things: what caused the fall was the pride brought on by the Great Curse, and Limit is one of the ways said Curse manifests.

>>62887
I'll add a few:

Civ
Con: pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire:
Con: A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route. I'd prefer to avoid that.

Light
Pro: Actually, since we could potentially feed off of light, or making it, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva.

Time
I'd suspect the destroyed calender would make temporal manipulation easier, actually. And there's no need to consume time, literally. I kind of imagined the feeding process more like that of a whale- letting the sea of time drift past, eating the energy-krill of individual moments as we encounter them. Feeding on the passage of time. Aggressively consuming pieces of history (like balefire, or what J described She Who Lives In Her Name doing) would be a deliberate, advanced act.

I feel I should clarify: I said that the rate of TW gain was modified by spreading/feeding on an Element, but that doesn't mean it's absolutely or even mostly linked to it; it's just a possible bonus. Just as the Element can provide some abilities unrelated to feeding, so too does the Purpose endow the deva with powers unrelated to their Element. Every feeding soul will be able to make TW just be collecting and refining general magical energy.

Unless you went for some wacked-out crazy stupid Element like Void or something.

The modification to the rate of gain from something like Civilization "spreading civilization", or Light creating Light, will be quite minor on the small scale for now, unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element. Mostly, it'll affect the degree that the Feeder helps with magical Power, not TW. It's only in the theoretical distant future that major Titan's Will gains would be rendered up for turning the world into some elemental utopia. The Element is mostly to influence potential powers, personality, future subsouls, and so on.

>>62892
>unless you run into a situation where, say, you devour a god based on the same element
This hadn't even occurred to me, but does that mean that Civilization would help maximize our gains from eating the city gods that seem to pop up in every Exalted settlement of significant size?

>>62896
Wouldn't that piss off the greater pantheon?

>>62904
Probably- but I didn't say it was a good idea, just wondered if it would work. Besides, if I've grasped the setting correctly everything has basically gone to hell in Creation and there's not a lot of stability or enforcement to be had these days.

>>62889
The problem is that we would have to wrestle against the dragon's shadow's will in order to influence time how we want. Since this particular soul is gonna be geared to feeding rather than mental combat, it probably would lose to a titan that is so much older and so much more powerful than us.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
PROS: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one.

Well, I was rather busy, and I'm back to comment further. There's been a lot of good discussion while I was gone. I actually laughed pretty hard at some of the jokes and references. ^_^ This is why I enjoy this quest-board.

>>62256
>>62263
>>62369
>>/quest/464719
>>/quest/464720
>>62730

I'm going to make an argument in defense of my idea of the element of "culture" here. Mainly these are in comparison to what seemed to be the old main pick of "civilization".

Any time that a group of people gather together for an extended time, a culture is created by that group. That culture is the mores, morals, ethos, and bonds that bind the people together, and govern how they interact, as well as any outward signs of those bonds, such as what heroes are held up in their stories, songs, and plays - if the culture is long lasting enough.

Obviously for some this brings to mind the fancy wining and dining and ritualistic behavior of "high society". However it extends down to the way that a certain family handles the circumstances they find themselves in, or the group dynamics in a life boat from a sinking ship.

A culture of people can build a "civilization", as in laws, and bureaucracies, technologies, roads, a nation with defined property and borders. However, while the office-culture of a particular law-firm or lunch-room-clique can indeed be called a culture, I doubt it could be called a civilization. As such, I do not think that "culture" is as limited as "civilization" is.

About the only time I think you could make a case for a civilization absent a culture is when you have "the ruins of a lost civilization". This is basically a corpse, that is then often built on again... as we see from the current location in character. You might be able to make the case for a large fey freehold.

And since you can describe a large tribe of Barbarians as a culture, I doubt that this would put Saulanna in opposition to Luna.

We also want to eliminate the surge of soulfire from feeding. Showing restraint in how you eat, and not splashing evidence of the meal all over are reflected in manners, which is a part of many cultures. Showing restraint when Saulanna feeds, and eliminating the soulfire are two goals that we seem to be in consensus on. That is how culture, and feeding are related to one another, and our goals for Saulanna's development.

Yes, I said that I think that we could use the Deva in the upcoming social battle. I think that some elements are more likely to help than others, and more likely to be of more help. This isn't my main point, but something I think we shouldn't completely ignore.

All that said, culture, much like civilization, does depend on language, communication, words. I think it's different enough not to cause problems. However, to paraphrase his position, Jukashi thinks that this is so close to words/communications as to impinge on Wordblood's territory, and increase strife. Also, it makes Wordblood uncomfortable, even after explanation, and that has been established in character

That is enough reason for me to seek other possibilities. I like some of the major ones others have brainstormed, and will comment on those separately, below.

Too long to read: I think "culture" is better than "civilization" for a lot of reasons, but I'm willing to move on. This is mostly because of what Jukashi said here, and Wordblood said IC.


>>62516
>Raccoonbending
Okay, that's really really funny, but I say... no. Nice Avatar reference though.


>>62886
>Will
Will speaks to me of mental strength, and the ability to resist or to push on. One of the things that I want for this Feeding Deva is some conceptual connection to restraint, though I do not think that "restraint" itself is an appropriate element.

I think this Feeding Deva would be very generally useful. Further, it also seems connected both to what little we know / have established about Saulanna's take on feeding, but also seems connected to her personality in general, both before and after the mind-wipe.

So far I like this one best, and think we should definitely ask Wordlbood and Peregrine about it.

>>62390
>>62864
>Desire
Since the person to suggest "Desire" said that perhaps there was a better word to describe what he was going for, perhaps "Determination" is what the original commentator was looking for?

A Feeding Deva who's powers resolve around pursuing that which it has set itself to, whether to feed on a certain stubborn morsel, or resist letting it's hunger injure the greater good.

But, as HalfTangible already said in >>/quest/467665, it's so similar to Will, that I think that'd be talking about the same concept. I'd support either Will or Determination, personally, and I think I like the flavor of Will a bit better.

>>62472
>Time
Okay, I think this is actually pretty interesting. The ability to re-allocate TW spent on abilities that were once useful, but aren't any longer, or that we liked but turned out to be a bad idea after all, sounds very powerful. Even more so if we can quickly and dynamically re-allocate power. That said, we can probably get lots of fun and interesting powers, eventually, with all sorts of different combinations, if we think in a clever way.

>Light
Hmm. This might let us more easily feed on that soul-fire, which is one of the reasons we're going after a Feeding Deva. That said, I think it'd be better to save for later, if we do use it.

All the Incarnae shed light (sun, moon, stars, red sun), and so does the green sun Liger. So, I think it would be a good idea to ask Wordblood about it, even if we intend to use "Light" later, rather than now.

>>/quest/467615
>>/quest/467616
>>/quest/467617
> Love \ Bonds \ Connections \ Nurturing
Hmm. I like the idea of one of Saulanna's Devas nurturing, or spreading love, but I don't think it makes sense for this particular purpose. I'd rather save this kind of element for a soul designed for a more specific purpose, like a diplomacy Deva, or a Deva for making new forms of life.

>Knowledge
If "Culture" is too close to "Words" then I don't see how "Knowledge" isn't.

-----

I'll try to keep brain storming, but I thought I should address the above ideas first.

-----

>>62707
>Ma-Ha-Suchi
>>62896
>eating city gods
I'd think eating cities would make Saulanna rather like Amoth City-Smiter personally.

-----

>>62887
Light
Con: Possible Overlap with all incarnae, and possibly Liger, the Green Sun.
Pro: Possibly less overlap with any than sunlight, moonlight, or starlight.

Civilization, Bonds, and Light are all concepts I can add my support to, whatever those ends may be.

Light has a myriad of uses. It signifies truth and eliminates deception. It can be either cleansing or searing, and it is an element of finding things. I like this as a deva, I'm not sure it is best suited element for a feeder soul though.

Bonds is another one I like. Bonds of friendship, love and trust, bonds of enmity and hate, bonds of servitude, bonds of loyalty. The different kinds of bonds out there are endless. Again, I'm not certain on that one.

I think my favorite is Civilization, and it gets my final vote. Civilization contains love, poetry, art, and beauty, but it also contains war and tactics. It contains bureaucracy and peace, as well as great agriculture, innovation and scientific discoveries. All in all, it is a symbol of power, order, and creation.

There is good overlap with our needs as a Feeder Soul I believe.

Really, civilization seems like it would have traces of things like love, and peace, and knowledge, and culture and the like already built into it. At the same time, it has potential for war and tactics and the like. But I'm repeating myself now.

Of the three that I like... Civilization, hands down.

What about Souls? A Feeder of Souls?

>Bonds

I've been giving this one another think over, and I do like the concept of growth through exploration that the original suggester is working off of. However, Jukashi already said that the element would only have a modifier based on our spreading / being around the element. I doubt that we'd get TW too much quicker for adventuring, or forming relationships. I also don't think that it has the implications that connect it well to "Feeding", or eliminating Soulfire that I was going for.

Though if it would let us consume/sever the bonds that keep potential allies bound to our enemies, this could be incredibly useful in re-aligning social power structures as well.

It's interesting enough to at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

Plus, I haven't investigated the user stamps, but I think it may already have the requisite 3 people supporting it, between both threads, even before I piped in.

>>62921
>Civilization

In post >>62730 Jukashi has already stated that he doesn't like civilization as an element, and may not approve of it at all. The group of commentators has been kind of vague in how it's defined, and seems to be casting too wide a net for the concept. He tried to get us to narrow it down. Structure/Order, Technology or Artifice, Social Development (which he said would wind up being like culture anyway).

You're trying to blend in war/tactics, love, and peace in as well, which is stretching the net further. (Love and peace, and war? Anyone else get a mental image of Vash the Stampeed?)

I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for. I think you're going to need to choose between supporting love, peace, knowledge, culture, and war as the particular element.

>Souls
Okay, based on the analysis of some others, I dismissed this one out of hand, but actually, I have had a thought where this makes some sense.

Each Deva will be making further sub-souls. We'll eventually have a huge world inside of us. As we grow in this way, it could well really ramp up the passive TW production. We'd not only have loads of them around at any given time, but we'd also be spreading this concept as we grow. Further, our diet has included a lot of ghosts thus far, and this could get us some additional TW, to help make our path to power along this rout shorter.

Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

That said, in the long run, being a creature that grows by feeding on and consuming souls isn't likely to do very well in the case for "Please don't destroy us Mr. Invictus... sir..."

If approached from the angle of creating/spreading/containing souls, I think it's an interesting enough concept that we should at least ask Wordblood and Peregrin about it.

>>62909
Will:
Pro: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.

As far as the cons go, military training, practicing debate, and fostering a sense of individual responsibility and prerogative could help to increase the strength of will of surrounding cultures.

The mind control aspect does strike a bit truer though. Feeding by consuming the will of others would make us more like the fey, and gaining powers in that direction could be a dangerous path.

>>62925
>I really don't think that if you go for civilization, you're going to get what it is you're looking for.
If we go for Civilization at this point we know exactly what to expect: What Jukashi described in >>62748, that being "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness". It's a reasonable and useful primordial force, and while there is a lot of excited speculation about what it might be made to do- I'm guilty of some of that myself- those are just potential subsets of the core idea, just like friendship, hatred, or slavery are potential subsets of a Bonds element. This is not trying to make it somehow encompass everything, just thinking about what the concept is made of.

Make the Element Heroism, we feed off our own awesomeness!

>>62927
I read >>62925 as Jukashi adding to the list of ways he'd be willing to interpret "Civilization", aside from the list in >>62730.

If "Civilization, as opposed to Nature or Wilderness" is actually what you're going for, though, then it's a valid concept to consider. I still think that your mullings are stretching the concept.

Culture, and knowledge... yes, I can definitely see there being some connotations for agriculture or trade based cultures, as well as the idea of the "high society" type of culture. I think that hunter-gatherer cultures would belong to the "wilderness/nature" part of the dichotomy. I'm also not sure that herbalism would necessarily fall on the "civilization" side of knowledge, though civil engineering almost definitely would fall within the connotations connected to this domain.

Tactics and strategy aren't natural, but war is a natural part of human life, and has existed as long as two people, or organizations, have coveted the same thing, and been unable to share in it. Similarly, peace exists any time people are working more in cooperation than opposition, which is also natural for man. Love, and familial bonds are natural to the human condition.

At best, civilization is not opposed to peace, love, war, or bonds of love/friendship/famil, but nature is not opposed to them either. As a result, I don't really think we can count on even connotations of them, due to the "as opposed to nature or wilderness" part.

Keep in mind, if we separate Saulanna from nature, that might well include her own human nature. The group as a whole seems to be trying to avoid that.

I also really don't like the idea of setting up that dissonance that Jukashi was talking about. Saulanna's essence is already partially tied up in the natural, and the wild. I really don't want parts of her fighting against herself.

In the end, my take on "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness" is as follows. Tactics vs valor and loyalty to clan. Bureaucracy against bonds of love and family. Laws and Law Enforcement officers vs willing and natural cooperation. The static beauty of a statue, vs a hill of wildflowers against the backdrop of misty mountains. More positively, it also includes rule of law over rule by strength, and "modern" medicine as opposed to herbalism, or a natural immune system.

While it has some positive connotations, this still smacks of "She Who Lives In Her Name" to me, and the gulags of Autocythonia. I am very leery of this concept for several reasons, and cannot support the formulation of "Civilization as opposed to Nature/Wilderness".

>Souls

This is a BAD idea. VERY VERY BAD. I am against it with every fiber of my being, and a few fibers from my dog. We are trying to NOT look like evil douchebags. Making a soul that gains power through the absorption of souls is redundant since that's already our primary method of gaining Titan's Will, and any Feeder Soul would be effective enough at absorbing souls, we don't need to make the feeding soul specifically attuned to what we can already eat AND it makes us look evil. Even if we don't go one a soul eating spree, the fact that we COULD, and in fact deliberately CHOSE to be able to do so, makes us look like a major threat to existence itself.

SPREADING souls makes no sense because we would have to spend TW to make souls anyway, meaning that until we have enough power to make the returns worth it, creating new souls is going to be more of a drain than a boon.

>>62925
>Further, just as Saulanna is partially made of meat, and consumes meat, the Devas are spiritual beings.

...Ok, and this is a positive because? =/ Not trying to be rude here but i honestly don't see why the meat/spirit comparison would matter.


Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: We have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.

Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one

>>62933
I respect your opinion on this matter. My point is not to support this choice, but that I find it intellectually curious, and want to ask about it, because I think it would give us a broader understanding we could use to debate our other options.

Saulanna is a smart girl, and people keep talking about wanting knowledge. Well, here's a chance to get it.

>Meat/Souls
Oh, that was just a bit of bad humor showing, and a reference to >>57928 . I suppose I shouldn't have made the reference so oblique.
I was simply pointing out, with poor humor, that "souls" seems particularly appropriate for any Deva, not just a feeding deva.

My main point of intellectual curiosity here, is based around the fact that our feeding Deva will be creating sub-souls that will help it with feeding, and we will be creating a huge collection of sub-souls eventually.

I think that being in the presence of these sub-souls could positively influence our TW gain rate. That's the long term strategy aspect.

The short term strategy aspect is even higher efficiency for eating ghosts, which it seems we are already determined to do, at least in the short term.

I recognize the negative implications you've talked about, and that's why I'm not supporting this option, but just want to ask about it.

We're in an info gathering stage, so I figure we should gather info. ^_^

I'll decide what I really support after we have all this info. I think asking about these elements others want, but that I don't support, may help me to make my choice.

>i'm gonna need some help with this one

from your listed advantages

>Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.

From Jukashi
>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

and also

>The interaction between Purpose and Element is ambiguous. As I said, it might be "Feeds on X", but it might also be "Feeds by using X" or "Feeds by spreading X".

> Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element. Similarly, you are made of meat. Thus, you can eat meat! You also use your meat to eat. And, if you eat, you can make more meat. You are a meat creature. It would not be inaccurate to think of a titanic soul in those terms, though - like with humans - there is a lot of complexity added on top of this basic nature.

>Wordblood, for example, as an Aide, is naturally helpful; being based on Communication, he is well-spoken and understanding, and can get upset when he doesn't understand things. Being an Aide and a Communicator, he is prone to provide assistance by explaining things and offering insights. Something similar will apply to any deva.

Feeding on X could be very bad for us in the case of bonds, and these bits make me think that that's one of the most likely things that will happen with a Feeder soul.

>Consider, simplified for the purpose of explanation, that a soul is basically "made of" its element...

And a Deva made of bonds? Might have loyalty issues or usurp our position as the soul this whole thing revolves around.

>>62936
Interesting (personally I think it's more likely that a Bonds Deva would have strong loyalties and/or trust issues, but to each their own)

Still gonna wait on Wordblood's word on all of these, but I think I'm set on Bonds.

>>62937
Except all bonds aren't positive, and the moment it bonds with all the other souls better than us and becomes the center of This Titan... well, I don't see Quest reacting well to that.

REBIRTH.

(I don't know how to quote across boards, but copy/pasting is a social no-no so I'm just gonna apologize instead. Sorry.)

>>62939
You do it like this:

>>/quest/467960
I think that was the post you were looking for, aye?

Guys, some of you have as many as six posts in the thread since the last update. Six. That is a ridiculous number. Please keep the conversation here.

>>62942
I'd like to agree with this but note that if they're posting that heavily in the main thread they probably aren't looking here.

This thread is over 1500 posts long!

Can we get a second discussion thread going?

Shouldn't we wait until it's OVER 9000? :P

>>62943
I wish that were true, but one of the most frequent contributors to this thread is one of the two with six posts over in the quest thread. Another reached three over there in less than three hours. It's... vexing.

>>62947
I presume that I'm the "three in three hours" fellow that you're referring to, and that HalfTangible is one of the fellows with 6.

Generally speaking I'll agree with you that discussions should be brought here, especially based on Jukashi's general request. However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

While I'm trying to move any discussion I think may last a while over here, I don't think replying to a short-term request for clarification over there is a bad thing, in any case.

That said, if I was going to discuss "REBIRTH", any further, or HalfTangible had needed further clarification, I'd bring it over here, especially since I see that the guy suggesting it found his way here.

>>62947
>>62951
I try to respond to arguments/points in the actual thread in which they start because some part of me is always paranoid that if i respond in another thread, it'll get completely ignored =( sorry - i'll try and cut down on that from now on.

HT: If you ever have a question for me, and want to move the discussion here, just link to my original post, and if I'm reading up on the threads at all, I'll probably catch it. I do occasionally need to disappear, for a variety of reasons.

I'll be happy to move any discussions from the main thread to here with you, unless I think that the responses need to be in the main thread.

In fact, if you guys like, I can delete my follow on posts, and make the clarification on my position here. I could even write up a more thorough reply to "rebirth" as an element, for our new Derpy friend.

>However the most recent post from Wordblood seems to be inviting some brainstorming, which I think loosens the social bindings a bit, in this particular instance. It's about the social context.

I'd say it's an invitation to pose ideas and ask questions to Wordblood and Peregrin. Almost noone is asking questions, me included to my chagrin(I phrased a question I had about a future Deva as a statement about something I thought could be cool), and instead most people are saying they're voting for things when Wordblood specifically said we shouldn't decide until' getting the advice of the people we have on hand.

>>62954
It got your attention, unlike more polite requests. I'm not apologizing or deleting it.

If anyone should be deleting posts, it's those who have cluttered up the quest thread with huge posts filled with nothing but talking to other suggesters. If you're not going to suggest anything, at least make your post short and to the point, christ. The quest needs no discussion of Derpy Hooves or made-up songs about derp faces, or critique of how someone presents their ideas.

>>62955

>>/quest/467608
>Thus, the choice you face is to decide its Element.
>Tell me your thoughts, and I will answer. Peregrin, too, may have valuable opinions to offer.

Yes, he did ask us to tell him our suggestions, but it's in part the way it was done.

The group was asked to come up with ideas, and then present them to Wordlbood for him to comment on. That seems to be a pretty clear call to me to brainstorm those suggestions, and ideas.

So people are giving their thoughts on the subject. This kind of creative environment looses some social conventions, in order to allow for greater freedom of thought, and expression of that thought. We get more ideas that way.

Normally that kind of brainstorming and discussion should take place here, but I think that now that it's explicitly idea time, in the main thread, people feel freer to have these discussions there.

I acknowledge that there is indeed some "voting" going on, and I agree that may have some unfortunate implications... but my hope is, that this will just lead to emphasizing certain explanations.

As far as my case in specific goes, in >>/quest/467935 I made one big post with questions I wanted to ask before a relevant decision was made.

After that, except for one side-comment, I was just quickly dealing with clarifications, or follow ons.

If those of you who have delt with me politely want, I can try to shift some of the clarifications here... but I don't think that my posts are really that much of an issue. Also, if HalfTangible was unclear on my intent, Jukashi might be as well, which is another reason I wanted my clarifications in the same thread I made that one initial post in.

----

>>62957
So you double down, and go so far as to blaspheme. Very well. I will be explicitly disregarding your wishes.

I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...

>>62958
>I wonder if people would enjoy links about cupcakes...

I'm sure the quest author who has said he doesn't like the quest thread getting cluttered with discussion would absolutely love that.

Honestly feel bad for all quest authors when threads get like this. Must be hell sorting out what people want to do or say, having any sort of consensus, and then having to actually write out a scene or dialogue with the jumbled mess of posts. Really surprised I haven't seen any out and out say they'll only accept the first suggestion from a given ID. I certainly wouldn't mind.

>>62959
I certainly wouldn't mind being limited to one post if it would cut down on the truly massive amount of suggestion noise in this quest.

I'd probably wind up having to delete my first post and repost it along with further thoughts later on in the thread, though. I quite often think of more things to suggest after I've already posted.

Oiy Josh the Aspie, stop filling the thread with your horseshit.

>>62959
Welp, there we go. I've posted a new list of suggestions. Entirely relevant. I'd offer to delete it upon apology. The main problem with that is that I already tried in order to add a bit more clarification, and it didn't work. I will admit fault on not taking better care of the password there.

However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

Yours hasn't.

Suprizingly, that makes your obsenities less relevant than any posts I've made, which you're complaining about.

... huh. Well, imagine that.

Jesus can you take this shit to "BIG DUMB ARGUEMENTS" cause its big, its dumb, and it technically qualifies for an arguement.

>>62961
Well, given that I was done posting until people decided to be provocative with bravado, and obscenity, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on, much less four between yourself, and f2c20c.

I do hope that you realize that you're actually provoking behavior that you don't want, and that I'm just refusing to be intimidated by people swearing at me. It's really quite elementary.

Had I not been sworn at, I already would have been done posting. I was even offering to clear out existing posts if people wanted, based on polite conversation.

To be honest, from a outsider's perspective this is making the entire thing rather hard to get in to. All I see are two sides lowering each other step by step. It is neither constructive, nor helpful and all it does is make things more difficult for new people to get into.

While I agree the base 'shut up' comment with nothing constructive was uncalled for, Josh's response was even more so. Both by just being a means to get back at the ones who told him to be quiet and being rather rude to those who are actually try to post good ideas only to have them moved away until the 5 most recent posts are spam.

Come on. Considering Jukashi asked us to play nicely, this sort of thing should either stick to a chat room, or in discussion away from the main thread. So please stop the petty fighting, alright? I enjoy Lunar Quest and I would hate to see it canceled due to this sort of thing.

>>62965
Juroko, in retrospect, I regret posting to the main thread. I intended to delete it after I had made my point, but screwed up on the password.

I have reasons for what I did, but sum total, I still would rather I had not posted that particular post.

My main solace is that I constructed it in such a way as to ATTEMPT to make it humerous to Jukashi, in the off chance that he wound up reading it.

I know he's an MLP fan (probably a far bigger one than me, as I'm just a casual fan/watcher), so I built a fair amount of the post out of references to a fan work.

That said, I do not respond well to intimidation, obscenity, or blaspheme, and do not intend to censor myself any further than I already was, based on vulgar intimidation tactics.

Still, there are some people I owe an apology too. To anyone reading this who was offended, or disappointed, and did not decide to try to intimidate people with obscenity or blaspheme, I apologize for the negative way my conduct has impacted you. If anyone with the power to do so wants to, I'd actually appreciate it if you'd just delete that main thread post about the muffins.

>>62962
>However, I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself, that every one of my posts in the main thread, since Jukashi has posted, has included either one or more elements to ask about, or has had part of a very short bit to clarify it.

>Yours hasn't.


I will note, since you don't seem intelligent enough to have noticed it yet yourself that I'm not the guy who posted The Shut Up or any variation thereof. I'm an entirely separate person who was commenting on how by trying to get back at someone for being rude you're being a complete asshole to the quest author. In a follow up paragraph I made a comment not directed at anyone in particular about feeling sorry for quest authors who had to deal with massive amounts of posts that aren't suggestions. Also, I only have a single post in the main thread.

>>62967
I admit to my error. I got used to a bit of back and forth with f2c20c, and failed to continue to check the user stamp. That was pretty dumb of me.

I apologize for that error, and conflating the two of you. You're already included in my earlier apology, but I'll repeat it. I apologize for the negative impacts my posts have had on you. I ask for your forgiveness.

>>62968
Hey, I'd like to point out that if you aren't contributing to the suggestion glut, then I don't have any problem with you.

>>62969
Wait, what?

Okay, maybe I'm just confused here. I'm not trying to lay blame, just explain my mental state, so that maybe we can figure out where things went wrong.

In >>/quest/468017 you shouted at what appeared to be everyone to shut up, and screamed an obsenity. I'm part of everyone.

Then in >>62957, you said that "It got your attention, unlike more polite requests.", and blasphemed.

I took that to be directed at me, specifically, since you were replying to my post. I'd already been talking with people who had adressed the issue more politely. I'd posted thrice, and while I didn't think I was causing a problem, I was open to trying to fix things if I was.

Since it appeared to me that you were claiming that I was ignoring the people I was already talking too, and that you were insisting that I'd respond better to being intimidated by being sworn at, I took grave offense.

I don't really see how you weren't swearing at me in the general in >>/quest/468017, and then insulting me in the specific in >>62957. I'm open to an explanation, however.

Also, I will admit that I had a single-line aside about Derpy Hooves, which wasn't in the best judgement, given how crowded things already were. The other things you complained about weren't me, though.

>>62970
Okay, I can see how what I said could be really easily misinterpreted, sorry for... well, basically not saying what I meant. What I meant was, my rudeness got your attention, unlike in the past where I would be polite about asking other people to talk in questdis, and it didn't stop.

I then went on to describe specifically what kinds of posts I didn't like. At this point I wasn't paying attention to specific offenses, but knew that there was kindof a lot of that sort of thing happening regardless. I didn't call you out specifically on it aside from that one derpy hooves thing which really isn't a big deal anyway since it's like one line.

You should probably let go the swearing and casual blasphemy, though. This is the internet, not church.

>>/quest/468011
>In addition, you are gushing over it like it's "THE GREATEST IDEA EVA" and it comes off as... for lack of a better term, 'fanboying' over the idea - ie, you're putting emphasis on potential pros while ignoring any potential cons.

I kinda actually feel like Derpy right now. I was posting late at night, when my brain starts shutting down, so I didn't quite realize that you were basically insulting me. I didn't know that being too (sleep-deprived) enthusiastic was a crime. There's a difference between sating that I didn't list/think of any cons and saying that I'm a thoughtless fanboy.

...Mostly I'm just angry with you because I woke up ten minutes ago thinking about your post. *awkward silence*

>Sure, you don't say the rose is ugly because it has thorns, but you don't grab the thorns and squeeze as hard as you can while gushing over the red of the petals, either.

I don't get it. Roses are delicious!

So, anyways, does anyone else have opinions on my idea? From this post:
>>57732
it kinda seems that some of these ideas (light, time, desire) would be better off as their own soul later down the line. We're not picking a new power that will also act as the feeder soul, we're picking the digestive system first and secondarily we might gain new powers too. Also, this is going to be made from/reflecting Saulanna, so things like Civilization, Culture, and Souls might be reaching a bit outside ourselves. For example, Jukashi uses the example of knowledge, but that would be more a feeding soul Wordblood than for Saulanna. I think feeder souls based on Eating, Will, or Balance might be the most direct elements to base a feeding soul on (and I hereby formally throw Eating and Balance into the list of ideas to ask Wordblood about,) but these choices just feel too safe. It would be perfectly fine to make a feeding soul with the element of Will, but for our first act of Lunar-Titan growth it feels way too damn boring. This is the sentence where I connect everything above to propose that Rebirth fits my criteria perfectly. In addition to what I mentioned in that sentence, Rebirth is totally meta, and that's why it's cool. It's quite probable that no other titan uses Rebirth, and being unique means both having no holds on us and also possibly creating powers that no others have. A bunch or really weird stuff happened to the person that is now called Saulanna. She's lost much, but also gained much too. Creating her feeding soul with the element of Rebirth means grabbing that weirdness by the horns and making all of it hers. That I feel is the greatest power Saulanna could gain. Or maybe it's a silly idea that wouldn't really work. *Shrug*

>>62973
I feel like a Feeder of Eating would wind up turning us into a glutton. Rebirth could do all sorts of weird stuff... it's worth asking about, that's for sure.

Guys. It's simple. if you're responding to someone's post, and they're responding to your response to their post, you're having a discussion. Which belongs in here, not in the main thread. Even when half your post is "new" material, you aren't excused from keeping the chatter over there to the minimum. There's chains of back and forth spanning half a dozen posts, it's ridiculous, and it makes things much harder to follow.

Additionally, I see a lot of people trying to convince each other of the validity of their ideas in the quest thread. That is a poor place for such debates, especially because in Jukashi quests it is not other players who decide how valid an idea or plan of action is, it's Jukashi themselves. What other players think of your ideas is irrelevant most of the time, so don't waste everyone's time and patience addressing them specifically.

Wanting to contribute is a great thing but being a respectful contributor means not flooding the thread with many posts. Take the time to consolidate your ideas and present them as one or two posts. At least that is the ideal everyone should aim for. One guy misunderstanding you is not the end of the world and generally shouldn't warrant a 10 paragraph response to set the record straight. Stop being so thin-skinned.

Is this the discussion thread? I honestly can't tell which is which because both threads have discussion and dumb arguing.

Jukashi, let me know your thoughts on all this, and how heavily you'd like "discussion in /dis/ only" enforced.

I began deleting this stuff, but I'm going to leave most of it up so Jukashi can see it and decide how he feels.

But until then, no more arguing.

>>62982
Yes, it is.
Thank you for deleting the muffin post, sir. I acknowledge my error, and have deleted the two posts I made that were pulling things into discussion territory. You have my apologies.

-----

>>62975
Well, I try to admit when I am wrong. I re-read the actual written rules yesterday after our last interchange. They do state how things should be divvied up on the boards. Obviously, from the admin action above, as well.

What other reasonable choice do I have? Of the 3 remaining posts I had in the quest thread, I've deleted the second two, which were pulling things into discussion territory.

I'd like to explain a bit of the reason for my confusion.

This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.

If people want to change that, consistent and even handed application of authority is likely to be necessary. I'm glad that Slinkoboy is offering, and I hope Jukashi takes him up on his offer.

As it is, there are people who repeatedly bring up their issues, and discuss them in the main quest thread. They ignore the discussion thread entirely. These people seem to be having a huge influence on the quest, including the posts that Jukashi has made. Milo, for example, seems to have a rather sizable influence.

While Jukashi has verbally discouraged that behavior, the apparently large influence that people like Milo have also rewards that behavior. This sends mixed signals.

I was actually nervous about keeping most of my discussion here when I first started posting. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see Jukashi address something I had only posted about here addressed in a main quest post.

Unfortunately, until more people pay attention to the discussion thread, and bring discussions here, the discussions here won't really have much of an effect on how people vote/choose, as they'll be missing vital info. That may occasionally make it a practical necessity to post that missing info to the main thread. Jukashi himself has already done so on a few occasions.

I hope that it becomes unnecessary soon, based on a combination of admin action, and bad behavior not being rewarded.

-----

>>62972
I accept your apology. I hope you'll accept my apology for making the muffin post.

As for the swearing/blaspheme thing... I generally don't bring it up when people decide to swear, or blaspheme. It's mainly when they are specifically addressing me, and particularly when they are trying to get me to do something by shouting at me at the same time.

When it looks like someone is trying to shove me around, and boss me around inappropriately, by yelling and swearing, which is a method of intimidation, I say exactly what I don't like about the behavior, and why I am not complying with their inappropriate orders.

If you had said, for example, "The fuck is a Derpy Hooves?" I probably wouldn't have commented, though I might have.

It looks like I'm not the only one who disliked your post either. It was one of the posts that slinkoboy deleted. HalfTangible reacted poorly in >>62976 as well.

Also, if you were to choose one or the other when talking to me, I'd prefer the vulgarity, even when directed at me, over the blaspheme. This is a preference that, if taken into consideration, would make me more kindly disposed toward you.

-----

>>62972

Regarding the whole "fanboy" thing: I wouldn't have dissed you over your position. However, you really weren't explaining yourself well, and were enthusiastic about the idea at the same time. It didn't exactly endear me to your idea.

Now that you're more clear headed, you've explained it better. Though, it would have been easier to read if you'd broken your paragraphs up a bit.

>>62973

As for the feeding soul of eating... I don't think that eating is an element so much as a purpose, which is also called... feeding.

You do make a good point about the foreignness of certain large concepts not directly tied to Saulanna. That's another point against my original idea of "culture" as well.

As far as rebirth goes, I was trying to puzzle out what context it could have, in terms of how the purpose of feeding, and the element of rebirth would interact.

Wordblood has said that these ghosts are "reborn" into us... but aside from gaining skills and TW, I don't really see it. I think it's more of an analogy he used to make Saulanna more comfortable with the course of action he wanted to follow.

Then it hit me. Perhaps a Feeding Soul of rebirth could develop the power of reducing our TW gain in exchange for making them actually reborn within Saulanna. They might be re-born as sub-souls of a Deva. Obviously we wouldn't want to do that with slavers, or the like... but people have already floated the idea of turning ghosts we like into a part of Saulanna. Perhaps we could make Gavin a sub-soul of any Deva we create that involves hard work and fortitude... or that guard captain into part of one of our combat oriented Devas.

This could be a path to that ability, which multiple people have expressed interest in.

It's actually even somewhat lunary, since Luna has the ability to turn Fey into spirits of creation called "truculee".

Of course we'd want consent in order to do that to ghosts we like, but hey, I think it's an interesting idea to at least ask about.

-----

Regarding voting, when the time actually comes:
The instant runoff system got brought up earlier in the thread. I'd like to go with such a system.

To see the flaws of a "most initial votes wins" system, consider the following scenario. You have a 5-way election between George Washington, Thommas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and Che Guavara. Che could win, even if only about 25% of the people voting even like him at all, and the other 75% would prefer anyone else over him.

The threat of that can also make people less likely to vote for an entirely viable candidate, that they just think can't win.

In an "instant runoff" system, unless people really wanted socialism, and more per-capita executions than either Hitler or Stalin, Che wouldn't win. People would also feel more free to make their primary vote the person/concept they actually want to vote for.

In the above example, my ticket might look something like this:
1 Washington
2 Jefferson
3 Benjamin Franklin
4 Abraham Lincoln
5 Che Guavara

It's a bit more labor intensive to do, so I'll understand if Jukashi doesn't want to do it. This is just my preference. Also, if some folks volunteered to provide vote counts, based on Jukashi declaring when the voting started/ended (either when he started the vote count, or by making a second post to declare polls closed), that might work out as well. If we have multiple vote counters, and their numbers match, that'd confirm the results. Jukashi would only need to do the counting if there was a conflicted result.

>This is one of the few quests I've ever looked at on this board. People have been having very small side-discussions in it as far back as I can remember. It looked normal to me, I honestly thought that was how things were done, particularly during periods of brainstorming.
From what I have seen it really depends on how crowded the quest thread is likely to get. Lots of quests with smaller followings or fast update speeds tend to have few posts after each update (less than 15 or so), and in those side discussions are not that problematic as long as they are kept short. The problems with discussion start to occur in quests that are very popular or take a while to update, because when you have 30ish of direct suggestions per update alone discussion in the quest thread can lead to massive amounts of text for the author and readers to deal with.

Also, if you are going to say lots and lots and lots of things, could you please use less spacing compact them into paragraphs more? It isn't nearly as much trouble when the post is in /disc, but when a single non-author post is three screens long you kind of have a problem.

>>62987
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I'll also try to keep your request in mind.
Gathering too many sentences into two few paragraphs makes the text hard to read, but I may have spread the sentences out too much. I'm also obviously still working to improve my ability to fully express a thought, while keeping my post brief.

>>/quest/467608
> If your Element is already claimed by another mighty force, they will be able to exert power over you; but in time, and growth, so too could you exert power over them.

Given how many powerful titans and gods there are, and that many of them span multiple elements, I think it is inevitable that we are going to step on some one's toes. I don't think we should really worry about that for this particular deva. Doesn't Wordblood's element (Words) overlap with Elloge a bit? That hasn't been a problem yet. For now, let's just avoid something that would be shared by the Dragon's Shadow, since he's the only superpowered entity that represents any sort of immediate threat.

Okay, so, if I'm not completely mistaken, next (quest-wise) we're going to request P-n-WB's input on the various suggested elements, and NOT going for the creation of the new deva until their input has been processed.

That about right?

>>62991
Sounds about right.

>>62984
Oh! Idea! Rebirth (as we're defining it here) involves a person becoming radically different from who they are, right? Maybe for cases like the Slavers, we could use our feeder and 'rebirth' them into ourselves as different kinds of people! Like how we went from Thief to Moon Hero/Titan!

... second thought that could easily be viewed as brainwashing... Especially when you consider we became a Titan by having our soul wiped clean.

Okay, maybe we could offer to 'rebirth' them as titan subsouls, say Noble or Commoner Devas for Wordblood/McFeederson. They'd still be /who/ they were before, just not /what/ they were before, and be able to assist in the tasks of a titan. The issue there becomes how much of an influence they'll have on us, though the threat of being eaten entirely if they become too uppity might deter them.

...Or maybe that would be for a different kind of soul than a feeder =/ ... huh.

... I think i like the rebirth idea in this light.

...And it only occurs to me now that the second idea was exactly what you just finished saying *facepalm*

-----
Bonds
Pro: Would encourage us to make new connections, Has many of the advantages of will, desire and civilization, could even gain power from having enemies.
Cons: Could lose power when bonds break... i'm gonna need some help with this one

Civilization
Pros: Gives us a very good reason to make a queendom, is something aligned with Sol Invictus (to a degree), creating civilizations would show we mean no harm.
Cons: Would grow very very slowly, acquiring power with the spread of civilization would be very limited (if useful), No immediate way for this to give us power, possible conflict with Wordblood, pretty opposed to Luna, diametrically opposed to the dragon's shadow, word of god dosen't really like it the way we imagined it.

Desire
Pros: gives Saulanna a motivation for a genuine relationship, manifests extremely often in sentient beings (desire doesn't just mean lust, remember), the deva itself would be motivated to feed
Cons: Might make Saulanna harder for us to control, A feeder of desire pretty strongly puts us on the succubus route.

Light
Pros: Light is everywhere to feed on, Could feed on Soul fire light, operating in the shadowlands could potentially make this element more potent once we're able to gain power via spreading it.
Con: Word of god hinted it might be better used for a different deva, Overlap with UCS (possibly?), Shadowlands are very dark, would be next to useless in the underworld.

Raccoon
Pros: The mental image (Oh good LORD, the mental image...xD ) of raccoon waves, raccoon ropes, and other raccoon stuff, compatibility with hero's soul
Cons: Raccoons aren't exactly primordial, and we have no way to spread raccoons or to reliably feed on them. Let's save this one for later.

Rebirth
Pros: Could allow us to 'rebirth' souls within us as subsouls, very connected to Saulanna's life since becoming a titan, could allow us to remake criminals into decent people before integrating them into us.
Cons: Influence of potential human subsouls, only interacts with singular events, remaking criminals similar to brainwashing

Time
Pros: Time exists at all times (ha. ha. -.-) ensuring constant food supply, could (by word of god) let us un-spend titan's will
Cons: Feeding on time or spreading it could be very dangerous, the fact that the Dragon's Shadow needed to destroy the underworld calendar to manipulate time tells us that there would probably be something like that in the real world, and in the underworld, we'd have to test our will against the Shadow.

Will
>>62886
Additional Pros: A Feeding Deva of will may well help us resist getting too swept up in a feeding craze, or the sensation of the feeding.
Cons: Eating will could be very easily read as 'mind control', spreading will isn't very possible in any way i can think of, giving up our own will to feed sounds risky, the feeding soul might try to 'feed off' the will of the other Devas, may make us feed like the Fae, which is a VERY bad idea.

Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?

>>62990
I think that asking who/what there is overlap with, and choosing overlaps that would be more advantageous / less disadvantageous to us is a far more relevant path than trying to avoid overlaps entirely.

You already seem to be prioritizing avoiding overlaps with the Dragon's Shadow.

>>62991
That's the plan, as I understand it.

I also think that since we have "souls" on the list, and "rebirth" with an eye toward how we deal with eating ghosts, we might want to ask more about the nature of ghosts as well. I posted such a set of questions in the main thread, as something we should ask about in the near future.

>>62992
Yeah, that second variation is basically what I was getting at. The main exception is that having component souls with any given personality would pretty obviously influence Saulanna. I doubt we want slavers influencing her mental state.

>Do you honestly have to keep posting up that big list every twenty posts or so?
Wouldn't it be convenient if there were some space for discussion that was also editable? As it happens, there is! It is currently even more obscure than the /questdis thread*, but if people use it and link to it it will presumably become less so. (Normal discussion would probably work better in this thread, but things like continually updating lists or theories would likely work better in the wiki, where they can actually be edited instead of repeatedly reposted.)
The page for this quest is:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest
A particular section of the page can be linked like so:
http://tgchan.org/wiki/Talk:Lunar_Quest#List_of_potential_Feeding_Soul_Elements


* As far as I could discover, this will be the first time a discussion tab in the wiki has ever been used.

In a similar relationship to the suggestion of darkness, or of rebirth, what do we possibly think about elements such as DEATH or LIFE?

Either death or life would work really well as far as actually being stuck in a shadowland right now, death is a large part of creation, there are deaths of ideas, people, animals, kingdoms, plants, lots of things! She also is dealing with ghosts and the like on a regular basis, and DEATH or LIFE would also very likely be very appropriate for a FEEDER soul in particular, as one of its purposes is developing her spiritual energy, and/or devouring souls. It works!

>>62982

I think my policy is going to be that no one should make more than two posts between updates. Preferably, they should make just one, but I'd allow two.

On another subject, this video should explain alternative voting/instant run-off voting, which we'll be using, for those who don't know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE

Voting begins!

>>62993
This board doesn't have an edit function for individual posts. I don't have any OTHER way to keep track of the list in question, nor what post i last edited it for. So yes. I am copy+pasting a list "every twenty posts" (actually a lot less than that, but thanks for being generous) so that it's easy to keep track of and update.

>>62997
Thank you, I'll try and do that with any future lists. If I forget and have to be reminded, I'll delete the post in question.

>>63001
Hooray!

WELP, looks like most of the ones we came up with suck!

What do you guys think of maybe coming up with another option or two? Maybe straightforward stuff like Blood or Flesh or Hunger.

>>63007

Every Element you could possibly come up with will probably have at least one disadvantage. And if it didn't, I would endeavor to give it one, for balance. We don't want things to get boring, do we?

>>63008
Well yes, but I think the complaint there was that quite a few elements proposed passed the line from "that will work, with a given disadvantage" to "that's not really suited to this purpose at all and has more problems and disadvantages than is worth it".

>Discussion
So, from Wordblood's responses, time seems a pretty strong choice. I'm pretty tempted to give him what he wants.

>>63009

Well, saying they would all have some disadvantage doesn't mean that they're all equal. Some are worse, some better. Perhaps there are even one or two that are best, if you have trust in your ability to handle them.

Oh Will soul, you were too excellent to exist...

...This time, at least. When we have more souls and power we should definitely go for a Will soul for a Purpose like Magic, because their reaction more or less said it would be awesome but beyond our current abilities.

Hmmm... What if we made a Crafting soul of Will? As a being which is itself crafted from will, it could start self-assembling part-way through its creation. Depending on how much Time shenanigans we could get away with by that point, we could even have our Time soul assist it in crafting itself.

>>63012
>paradoxical origin for time deva
>interacting with devas we haven't even created yet
That's all kinds of awesome.

There weren't any disadvantages listed for Raccoons! =D

That means they're the best! Vote'd.

>>63015
i think he was trying to decide if we were joking. Or just staring at us like this pic.
>>62746


...

i like that pic =3

>>/quest/468303

I would rather not go with a Lord Deva that has a strong potential to take over the King/Queen slot from Saulanna. I think that we should save Bonds/Connections, or any other deva elements that might shift the balance of power, to be Noble Devas. These are at the mid level between Lords, and Commoners, recall. This might well actually stabilize the power-base of Saulanna's house.

Some of these would also do well as Nobles under Wordblood. As a result, I'm kicking Civilization, and Culture off of my list.

>Will
>She's not sure why; but she feels a little insulted by the suggestion, somehow. She feels an implication in it that she's deficient in terms of willpower, herself.

>>/questarch/213361
>It's... incredible!

>>/quest/405263
>It feels so good.

Well she does need more willpower. That's probably why the suggestion stings.

My thought on the difficulty in making the spirit is that if we can't actually make the Deva out of willpower, we can move on to our runner up, whatever that is. Besides, a tree IS made of wood. If you had a magical carpenter who could bring wood carvings to life, and he brought his tree to life, he'd have more wood to make things out of later. Let's be a magical carpenter! Besides, since when have Titans been unable to handle recursive absurdity? I'm looking at you, "She Who Lives In her Name".

This is also one of the two most powerful possibilities, and one that impressed Wordblood. Time also has some disadvantages (see below). I'm also willing to put up with a Willful Deva (that's part of the point, in this case). My favorite option is Will... if we can do it.

>Time
I do like this element. The advantages have been discussed, but something that Wordblood said is a disadvantage that others don't seem to be considering, and brings up other concerns.

We really do need to take care to avoid screwing up causality too badly. The Primordial war did a lot of damage there, and caused some horrible problems. I'm not sure that this crew, or Saulanna herself can really handle that. Take another look at the links under "Will".

Even if we assume that we can handle the responsibility, and not muck up with causality too much... if we screw with it even a little, we may well invite the interference of the Star Heroes, who's job it is to fix muck-ups in the Loom of Fate.

Speaking of Star Heroes, I think that we'll probably have some overlap with the 5 (6? 6+?) Maidens of Fate. Fate and Time seem highly related, after all. Saturn has "endings" as her explicit domain, and "beginnings" of many kinds are a part of the domain of Venus. This is not necessarily a negative, just something to consider, especially if we decide to also go for a light element deva later.

I like the element over-all, and while I'm not entirely confident this crew can handle it, I'm confident enough to make this my #2 pick.

Also, if we DO make a Time Lord, I think he should be a ginger this time. ;)

-----

As for the others, I've got ideas on what to do with them, and many of these are based on Jukashi's assessments. Obviously, actually acting on any of these can wait until later. Still, I think that having a good idea of where certain elements might fit best later can give us a better idea of what to vote on for now.

Lord Souls for Saulanna
Love: Healing, social, or would go really well with that purpose of maternal / nurturing (though that one might be best as a noble).
Life: Creation, Healing, or a Noble Deva to the Healing Deva
Rebirth: Healing, or a Noble Deva to the healing Deva
Knowledge: Seeing
Light: Soooo many purposes for this one, particularly investigation, revelation, and combat against the darkness, if we go that rout.
Heroism: This should be the element we use to make our Kung Fu Master Lord. We have to have one of those eventually.
Growth: Pair this one with the purpose of training, thus helping Saulanna to grow, as well as the other members of her inner world, and eventually others. This might also do well as a noble soul for our Kung Fu Hero Deva.

Noble Souls for Saulanna
Balance: To aid us in managing any conflicts between the Devas we create within Saulanna. Might work better as a Lord soul.
Connections: To help cement Saulanna as the main titan Deva.
Unity: Has some of the benefits of the two above.
Self/Identity: To help cement Saulanna as the main Titan Soul, and also to make it easier to come back from a potential bad end, may also help against mind control.
Restraint: If we don't go with Will as a Lord soul, we should make a noble soul like this, in this position. It would also work under the Will Feeder, or possibly under feeding, even if we don't make Will the Feeding Deva.

Noble Souls for Wordblood
Culture: Well, I think it's a useful element to have, and it's close to Wordblood, so why not give it to him? For some reason, I'm now imagining word blood with a top hat. Smashing look old chum. :P
Thought: He wants it, he used to have it, we like the element, let him have it.
Rationality: Well since we're probably not going to create a Deva of Order, perhaps a Noble of Rationality or Debate, or a caste of commoners of this sort.

I think Saulanna felt inherently insulted by it because it would conflict with her Element. Think about it for a minute. If Saulanna is part of a Titan, it stands to reason that she is like her other Souls, and has an Element and Purpose. Either her Element is Will, or something close to it. What her Purpose is is unknown though.

For a Feeder soul, Time is probably best.

However, I'd like to plan a Lord soul for "Loyalty". It would secure Saulanna's control, and having a lord soul dedicated to loyalty would work in our favor when her nature is eventually discovered. Even moreso if that Lord has nobles for Love and Family, and Saulanna openly considers Luna her mother in a literal sense.

Where would I go / who would I talk to if I had some suggestion that might make the discussion thread a bit more usable?

>>63018
Truth would be a good Noble soul for wordblood. It's something he doesn't have at the moment.

>>63019
I toyed with that idea as well, but I think a human explanation is entirely plausible. Then again, the explanations don't need to be entirely mutually exclusive. In this cosmology, humans were made to be willful creatures who submitted themselves to the Titans and Gods in prayer, and are one of the few creatures not under an inherent gease to another form of life.

>>63020
Interesting concept. I can very well support a Lord soul devoted to helping to get the various other Lord Souls to work together, and be loyal to Saulanna... though I think we might also be able to manage that function using Noble Souls in the House of Saulanna. I'm not sure which way would be better. It might be good to consult with Wordblood on that.

>>63022
Mmm. Either word-blood, or the Seer of Knowledge. Personally, I think that Truth and Knowledge are more tightly tied than Truth and Communication.

Really, I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge.

>>63021
I'm not sure. If it's a technical suggestion, the admins, probably, if you can figure out how to get a hold on the admin team. I regret that I can't be more helpful.

>>63021
I would think you could bring it up here? It's not as if we have a meta-discussion thread for discussing the discussion.

>I could see either a Seer of Knowledge with a Noble of Truth, or a Seer of Truth with a Noble of Knowledge
Is there a reason different Lords couldn't have similar nobles serving them? There's going to be some redundancy in a parallel arrangement of power.

Any ideas where we should be spending our titans will from the new ghosts after we make the new deva? I would think we'd want to spend a point upgrading Saulanna to replace the loss of the feeder creation. I'd also like to spend a point or two powering up Wordblood to make him more directly useful (preferably far enough that he unlocks his own energy meter, an equivilent of moon points- word points or whatever), although every point we spend in him necessitates a point spend on Saulanna to keep her on top.

>>63026

I do think that there is reason. Based on my understanding of what Wordblood is saying in >>/quest/468303, having Lords that are too close together does not allow them enough conceptual room to "grow". This would seem to imply that they can't have overlapping Nobles, or that doing so causes problems. Keep in mind that if two Lords overlap too much, they can bleed into each-other and become inexorably drawn together into a single Deva.

In fact, that might actually be what is happening to Saulanna and Wordblood, causing the two to merge more over time. It's only come up a few times, but it worried Wordblood.

Hmm. If having more Lords doesn't fix that, we might want to establish some Nobles for both Wordblood and Saulanna that are in different conceptual directions from one another.

As for ideas on spending TW:
Based on >>/quest/409526 it will take 4 of our 5 measures of Titans will to create the Feeding Deva, and 2 of however many we have after feeding, in order to return her Soul Force to 3, not just 1. It'd would also take 2 measures to raise Wordblood's Soul Force to 3, and 3 to increase ours to 4 to stay ahead.

While I can support raising Soul Force back to 3, for several reasons, I'd rather not spend the TW to raise it to 4, and Wordblood's to 3, at least for now.

If we need to, I think we should spend 1 TW on an ability to keep the feeding from flaring our Soul Fire. There's also the possibility that we might be able to boost efficiency even further than we have with an additional expenditure. Those would be things to do before feeding, if at all possible.

I'd like to improve Saulanna's ability to resist the various arguments, but all of the direct stats for that are passive.

People have suggested raising Saulanna's appearance score. I like the idea of doing so, particularly while she takes a bath and otherwise tidies and makes her self up.

I also like the idea of granting Wordblood abilities based around communication, particularly his existing ability to parry. I'm just not sure how to formulate those ideas. A dazzling display of linguistics? A powerful verbal parry?

Finally, if we have any TW left over after preparing for social combat, we might want to dump it into improving our new Feeding Deva's long-term TW generation ability, or keeping it back for an emergency expenditure.

If we stay inside the houses of Lords metaphor, than each house is going to have common needs. Every household needs a manager, a bookeeper / recordskeeper, a housekeeper, etc. And I would think they'd be cut of their master's cloth- so the butler of the house of words won't blend into the butler of the house of time, because their elements are different.

>>63030
You're talking about overlap of purpose, so I'll address that first. Every business needs a book keeper, but a hotel doesn't need a gunsmith, and a gun store doesn't need room service. Similarly, it's dangerous to have too many houses within a kingdom concentrate on war, or on the production of a particular good (say, cloth), even if all of them have their own internal book keepers. This can lead to trade wars, or to civil wars.

The focus of my prior discussion, however, was element. Take the example of two lords that are too similar in element, an Aide of Communication, and a Feeder of Culture. These Lords (and their houses) might draw together and merge over time, fight each-other over turf, or be too stifled to grow, by having Nobles of associated elements. The method for this merger hasn't been precisely explained.

Even if Knowledge and Words are far enough apart to not be stifled in growth, if they both pick the same element (Truth) for one of their Nobles, then that overlap may cause them to grow into each-other, and merge inexorably.

...So, what does this room smell like, anyways?

>>63036
The sound the color pink makes or some other such synesthesiac shit.

>>63030
Wordblood's overlap is only present because they are both parts of one Titan. They aren't merging; Wordblood has only ever been worried about Saulanna's soul power being lower than his. That happening would make it quite likely that he would take over as King, and he doesn't want that, possibly due to his Purpose.

>>63020
What purpose would we tie to that element? Defense?

>>63018
Let's name him 'The Doctor!' =D

>>63048
Wordblood implied that the Queen is determined by whoever the Lordly devas feel loyalty to. The issue wasn't that he would take control, just that he was personally uncomfortable with having a higher soul force.

>>63036
Well, we're underground in a Shadowland. It probably smells like a dark, dank cave filled with death.

>>63032
...Actually, now that i think about it, do Noble and Common Devas neccesarily HAVE TO be connected to only one Lord/Noble, respectively? Like, say we decided later to get a Knowledge Seeing Deva, and wanted both Seer and Wordblood to have a truth Noble. Would we be able to make ONE truth noble, and have it serve both of them?

(It struck me that this particular scenario might come about on it's own if we make two truth sub-devas and they merged, as Lords supposedly can do.)

Afterthought: Or could we make a Truth subdeva for Saulanna that would work in the same manner?

How about Beauty? I like Beauty. A beauty feeding deva would make saulana have to seek after and cause beauty basically, in order to gain power. I like that concept.

>>63048
I'm talking about how he is confused, and concerned about times like this: >>/questarch/211992
I thought that there was some discussion of the two bleeding into each-other more than was healthy, but looking back, I can't find anything from Jukashi on it. My mistake.

>>63054
Well I'm glad that someone got the joke.
If we really do name him that, it would really confuse the rest of the world until he became a known entity.
"Oh, so he's a Lord of Healing?"
"Nope, he's a deva that makes me more awesome because time."
"... and he's named the doctor."
"Yep!"

>>63054
A Noble is a part of their Lord, just like the Lord is a part of the King (or Saulanna's case, queen). So if the two share a noble, that'd be overlap in who they, themselves are.

Well we have lots of questions about this, and what would and wouldn't be safe, practical, or downright doable. Enough so that we should probably seek clarification in quest, or here from Jukashi, when we get close enough to making Noble souls, or start picking out elements for other Nobles. That's probably several challenges away, though.

>>63036
If you mean IC, it's a ruin that's been dug out, and looks like it has wood supports, but it seems to have been mostly cleared to the walls. My guess is that it smells a bit like soil, more like dust, and possibly rotted wood and mildew.

If you mean the chat? Hmmm.... aaahhh... I'm going to saaaay... muffins. Oh! with warm, melted butter. And jam, jam would be brilliant!

>>63057
Well I prefer beauty to ugliness as well. However, in my opinion, focusing on going around making things beautiful is really superficial. Further, people overly focused on it tend to get really wierd, and start spreading impractical ugliness that they call beauty, because they forget that in most cases beauty has it's roots in practical application, and if you cut away that root, the beauty withers and dies.

I want to keep Saulanna well out of the territory of Eva Longoria (better known by her parody, Cruella de Ville), or rust-sculptor Albert Paley.

If the deva ends up being Time (which seems very probable), can we Time it up so that the creation process isn't painful? :<

A better feeder soul name would be the Master.

>>63065
...Who will promptly scheme to (and quite possibly successfully) usurp Saulanna's Queen throne. I realize that you, and the others, are seeking pleasure via referencing Doctor Who, but do remember that this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest.

Wrong franchise, guys. The time devourer should obviously be named Lavos.

>this is Lunar Quest and not References And Shout Outs Quest
Man, just think if we had made ourself the titan of the internet. Then it totally would have been. :V

Well, I kind of figured the Feeding Deva would be like a butler. Giving us well prepared meals along with his crew of cooks. Time also makes me think of clockwork stuff(clocks and time).. so why not make him Mr. Clocksworth? The clockwork time feeding deva?

Personally, I like the idea of a time whale.

Although it's possible all our Devas are going to end up draconic in nature as Worldbood is. Or maybe, since it's essentially a spiritual cutting of Saulanna, it'll be some kind of raccoon after all?

>>63067
Wait. Who will be usurping the throne? >.> Because what you've got there implies that it'll be the Time Deva if we name him/her the Master. But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

...Granted, that would drive the chances up considerably, but naming Wordblood 'Cassandra Cain' wouldn't have made him mute, or a combat deva.

>>63073
Yes, I am referring to the deva named "The Master". Because, I think should be bleedingly obvious, by naming the deva so Saulanna is acknowledging its superiority and thus abdicates in favor of The Master.

>Wordblood as Cassandra Cain
...Hmm, perhaps I should have separated my two sentences. You have completely misunderstood. I hope I have given enough information to clarify my intent in my above response.

A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

>>63075
I get that 'the Master' would be a huge ego boost, just not why it's equivalent to saying 'i will treat you as my master'

>A question, though, what precisely, do you mean by
>>But if it would happen under those circumstances, then it would happen whatever name we gave him/her.

Essentially, that the name wouldn't affect it's loyalty. (unless we picked something deliberately antagonist, say 'Stupid Douchebag' or 'Loser') If we created a Deva that wanted to usurp us, it would want to usurp us even if we called it the Servant or Loyalty. It's nature would remain unchanged because at the end of the day our names do not define who we are (except true names, but I don't think we were talking about picking THAT out)

Technically, that is EXACTLY what we are doing here. We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name. Hell, considering we are making it out of literal bits of ourselves, whatever we name it WILL likely effect it. That means nothing like 'The Master' or 'The Time Lord'. It doesn't feel creative or neat and would make our new deva feel rather 1 dimensional.

So honestly, let's think of something original or at least not a carbon copy of trade marked characters, OK? We can do better than that.

except we sorta ARE. we are talking about the FIST name of a being who's very identity is controlling the flow of energy.

we don't want to implant the seed of the idea of "if i was in charge things would be MUCH more efficient" maximizing efficiency and gains is what they are all about.

>>63078
>We are giving them a name, their FIRST name, therefore their TRUE name.
Eh? Why would we be the one to give them their true name at all? Their true name is the essence of what they are, not merely a label given to them by someone else. We can call them whatever we wish, but their true name will be writ upon them from the moment of their creation. Wordblood will be able to tell us what it is.

>>63076
How exactly can you say "I will call you Master" without being subservient? Anyway, it's a dumb name. They might want to name themselves anyway so let's wait on talking about names until we know we'll have something to name.

>>63079
If it has those thoughts, it would have them whatever name we give it. This is a being literally steeped in the idea of Time, even if it can't decide 'this will never have happened' it'll probably have SOME ability to predict the future or retroactively give itself knowledge that will save our lives.

...

Heh. "*gets born* QUICK, SHE'S COMING! WARFORM!!"

>>63082
Easy, you add 'The'. The Master makes it sound like a title unto itself - calling someone 'Surgeon' doesn't mean 'MY surgeon'.

Oh I agree it's a bad idea to call him that - we might as well name him Lord Zed or Darth Vader. I just don't see how it's tantamount to SAULANNA saying "I'm a subservient bitch who will do whatever the butch says!"

>>63078
Not to flood the discussion thread, but... Are we sure he's not going to just pick one for himself? =/ Wordblood did, if i remember correctly (though admittedly I was a little late to the party so I read through the actual events of chapter 1 without the discussion bits therein)

If not...

Flowery:
The Weaver Within Wonder?
The Keeper of Times Long Past?
One who Maintains the Passage of Time?
The Watchman (watchwoman?) of Forgotten Events?
Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon? (I like this one =3)
The Masked One who Sees the Fabric of Time

Less flowery:
Ouran? Nakal? Naz? Rolokroth? Gozeo? Renuzit? No never mind, that's dumb... uh... Yu'Shan... no wait, i think somebody in this setting uses that name... eh... Uru? Ba'Sim? Bill?

...Eh. I like 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon', tbh. Or Gozeo, if we want something less flowery. The others are there in case ya'll like any of 'em more than I did.

>>63085
>Feeder Soul of Time seeing the future
Sounds more suitable for a Seeing Soul, rather than a Feeder Soul.

>The Master as title
And? Lord Souls are expressions of aspects of the Titan-overself. For one Lord Soul, even if she is the Queen, to call another Lord Soul The Master (just that, lacking any other qualifier that clarifies the domain of its authority), then, naturally, The Master is the Ruler Soul.

That is, Saulanna is saying, "You, who are an aspect of the Titan I embody, is The Master: the soul that commands and is obeyed. ... Yes, the Throne naturally belongs to the one who commands the Lord Souls; and you command the Lord Souls, as follows your title. Long Live The Master!"

>names
...I don't like any of those things at all.

And, let's stop discussing names/titles please. All this serves is to fill up the disc thread.

Also, Yu Shan is the name of Heaven: the residence of the Celestial Gods and the Titans before them, and the home of the Celestial Bureaucracy.

>>63085
I think the flowery names are the right general direction (assuming we have input on their name to begin with), but half of those are not related to either their function or their element.
How about something like Measure of the Innumerable Moments?

>>63087
I never said he could show US these things. Just for comedic effect. Or heck, he could just eat possible scenarios until we've only got one possible outcome left.

>Yu Shan
Aw crap, that's right...

>>63089
Most of them require a VERY liberal interpretation of the function. Examples:

>Weaver
That one refers to efficient management and distribution (taking things that don't work and placing them where they do) and uses fabric as a metaphor for the energy being distributed.

>Keeper
Keepers sometimes are also responsible for maintenance.

>Maintains
We picked time in large part because he could unspend titan's will, right?

And I'm gonna drop this now. At least until we know if we NEED to give it a name...

...I'm still going with Legacy.

For a name, perhaps something that just directly concatenates purpose and element? So like, "Eater of Eons".

>>63095
Eons?!? I like the name, but you do know how big an eon is, right? We're not Galactus here, Eater of Seconds would be more accurate.

I say we wait and see Jukashi's characterization first, then we can come up with a name. We have no idea yet how he/she/it might act, or if it's gonna have the form of a raccoon or not. And, of course, Jukashi might already have a name in mind.

She Whose Fluffy Tail Endures The Inexorable Weight of Eons

>>63106
'Endures' implies both a burden and a defensive deva. What about 'She Whose Fluffy Tail Consumes the Weight of Eons'

We'll call her 'Eon' for short... Actually, let's just call her 'Eon'.

I believe you all have missed the fact that most Titans, from what we've been told, seem to try and hide the specific nature of their souls. Hints at their purpose in their name should probably be avoided.

Also, we probably shouldn't be trying to name something we might not need to name and is likely to be something very different then what we're expecting.

>he who bleeds the unknown word
>has word powers
>authochthon
>machines

yeah i don't think they really hide it that much.

Fluffy Tails!

>>63117
Their Element tends to be obvious, yes, but Wordblood said that Titans try to hide the Purposes of their Souls in the last (few) updates, remember?

>>63117
The latter doesn't show the specific purpose of the soul, and the former is for the titan as a whole.

>>63116
Probably, but there's not much else to discuss until the soul is actually born.

Quick recommendation: if you want the subject to change, CHANGE THE SUBJECT XP

I still think 'Legacy of the Forgotten Dragon' is a good name.

>>63118
...Let's save that for the raccoon soul.
(if we do end up doing that and Wordblood doesn't give some variation of 'oh dear stars, you weren't joking...' i will be very disappoint)

>>63123
We could discuss future purposes of Devas and their elements.

On such a subject, here's some that I like:

1. Purpose: Seeing; Element: Knowledge
I honestly wanted our inevitable Warrior/War soul to have Knowledge as it's element, but it seems a bit of a no brainer to make our Seeing Soul knowledge based.

2. Purpose: Create; Element: Life
We were told Life could be used for creation as well as healing. I personally like it for a Deva whose purpose is to Create. I think building up a powerbase would be much quicker, and also much more customized to our methods that way. I imagine Healing could have a lot of other viable elements anyway.

3. Purpose: Teaching; Element: Magic
In normal Exalted, normal humans can awaken to magic, but it's rare and doing it on their own is a very big deal. Assuming things work more or less the same in quest, this should not only allow for more easily developing our powers, buts sets things up to ensure even our mooks can use artifacts.

4. Purpose: Create; Element: Magitech
This might step on the toes of both the Life and Magic Devas, but given that the creation of Magitech complements the creation of Life that's been taught Magic, I'm hoping the overlap is more complementary and less lethal. Definitely something I'd ask Wordblood about first though. If it works, the synergy between this one and the previous two should be pretty damn powerful.

>>63124
Thank you for offering an alternative this time =p

Personally I think the seeing deva should have the Truth element, for reasons put below. Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

-----

Purpose: Seeing, Element: Truth
This would grant us a form of truesight, and if we gave it a knowledge subsoul later we might be able to scry. While either Knowledge or Truth could get the other later, I think that at the moment Truesight of our surroundings is more important than scrying on other places - especially since we know little about places in the world we could potentially scry on.

Purpose: Healing, Element: Rebirth
This would allow us to heal the wounds of others, but also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

Purpose: Creating, Element: Love
We want to be a positive force in the world. Creating and spreading joy and love seems a great way to do that.

Purpose: Offense, Element: Raccoon
Raccoonbending aside, raccoons can fight bobcats to a standstill. This is NOT a creature you want to mess with... and if Raccoon can't be an element, ask Wordblood what it would take TO MAKE IT ONE!! =p

Purpose: Defense, Element: Movement
In addition to improving our ability to dodge, we would gain the ability to run from battles we're heavily outclassed in. And let's be honest with ourselves here: THAT'S GONNA HAPPEN.

I wanted to put a socially inclined Deva here, but we've already got Wordblood, we'd be better off just improving on him.

Purpose: Stealth, Element: Secrets
Using a specific element for a Stealth deva would require that said element NOT stand out in whatever setting we happen to be in - a darkness Deva, for instance, might not be able to hide us in a sufficiently bright room, since a massive cloak of darkness is going to draw attention (could be taking it too literally) A secret would just make us... unnoticeable. We wouldn't need to use anything in specific, just will ourselves to be a secret and BAM! nobody knows we're there unless we want them to.

Purpose: Travel, Element: Light or Desire
Desire could potentially let us just will to be somewhere - we want it hard enough and we go there. Light, on the other hand... well, it's a little thing called LIGHTSPEED =D

-----

...Oh stop looking at me like that, you weren't gonna use those brain cells for anything important anyway =p

no he said two deva with the same purpose one will automatically become a noble to the other. just instantly. based on power and such.

Neither of those are true. He said Devas that share elements will always devour each other, Devas with similar Elements have problems as it limits their ability for growth from their Nobles, and Devas sharing a purpose will USUALLY cause War.

So yes, a Deva with the same purpose as another and an Element closely linked to the element of another is pushing things, hence why I said I'd definitely want to ask Wordblood first, but given the specific thing I was suggesting, I think it MIGHT be able to work, and if so would be a pretty powerful combination.

>>63126
>also heal other medical conditions that are generally left out of healing magic in many other systems (Blindness, insanity, maybe even old age)

None of those are incurable in Exalted, though we might be able to cure them sooner then is normal and get around damage that magically resists healing. Though the result might be wiping out who the person currently is as it forces them to reincarnate or something.

>>63127
-.- No.

>>63130
That's what I said. See?
>Also, two create devas would cause a problem - if i remember what wordblood said correctly, similar purposed devas tend to compete at best, consume each other at worst.

>>63131
There's also the fact we could bring souls like the slavers (possibly bad, but we're not sure) into ourselves and remake them as commoner devas or something. But ya know.

I've been thinking for a bit about what we're going to do after we create the feeder soul. Given that we're going to have new souls to nom on we're likely going to have 10+ TW after everything. This would let us boost our Soul force to 4, boost Wordblood to 3, and have enough left over to become at least as pretty as the Deathknight chick and gain a random new power. Possibly lots of new powers, if our Feeder is really good.

While that's very nice, I'm somewhat concerned as to what the others will think when we come down an hour later and the ones with supernatural senses can tell we're vastly more powerful than we were a little while ago. Even the unobservant should notice that we've put on a cup size or two.

Do we want to worry about this?

>>63139
If we're not too extravagant with the upgrading, we can pass off a one point increase in beauty as having freshened up.

And increase in moon power might be harder to cover up, but if it's not too great, and we put enough time between then and now, maybe they'll assume we just weren't up to full power before?

Longer term, some ability to conceal or obscure the true extent of our power might be useful.

>>63136
Not quite what you said. Those with the same purpose might go to War and only those with the same Element consume one another.(Unless, I suppose, the two Devas sharing a purpose have a purpose or elements that mean going to War IS an attempt to eat one another. Gluttony/Feeding/ect ect). Also he never said compete at best for sharing a purpose, just that it usually causes War, which I believe probably means they become territorial over their specific role and have an instinctive want to be in charge of things within' that role.

It's a very important difference when we're talking about Elements that, when combined with the purpose, lead to roles that don't actually have much overlap but synergize well with one another. I imagine that usually Devas whose purposes are along the lines of Social, War, Feeding, Stealth, Healing, Seeing, ect ect tend to have significant overlap in role regardless of their element. Create Devas who are in a lot of ways on the opposite end of the Spectrum(Organic and Inorganic) are a bit unusual in that regard.

>>63126
Having Truth as the element for a Lord deva might make it harder for us to hide our titanic nature. On the other hand, it might make Sol more positively inclined towards us. He likes truth.

>>63142
Hmm. Potentially something like a Seer of Truth could have some sway over who could see the truth- and act as a roundabout means of concealment? Then again, that might be anathema to it's nature, the same way blocking understanding was to Wordblood.

>>63141
War is a competition for resources and/or attempted destruction of your opponent. Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

Assuming you disagree with that interpretation of war (not gonna lie, that happens a lot) 'compete' is better than 'war' (and in my opinion, better than 'cooperate'*), and they're both going to try and get their own agendas forward. So yeah. At best, they compete.

And as you said, consumption occurs with similar elements, while the case here was identical purposes... aaaaand i said 'consume'. Okay, you got me there.

*A competition forces one to improve oneself.

>>63140
Er, if our Soul Fire wasn't active (which I'm hoping is part of our plan -to WAIT until it dies down) how would they be able to tell our MP increased?

>>63140
If we absolutely MUST hide our soul force, we could create a stealth soul with the TW from these two slavers, but other than that, we'll probably just have to risk the death hero and/or moon heroes noticing and hope they keep their mouths shut if they do to try and keep it hidden from each other. We're woefully unprepared for another go-round, as we are.

Instead of making a Stealth soul though, i'd say we should increase both our soul force and Wordblood's, so he can gain some of those social abilities he was talking about. Specifically the idea planting, so we can get them to decide it's best that they keep as much secret from each other as they can. The chance of us needing to social fight again is fairly high.

>>63142
Correct me if I'm wrong: a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/

>how would they be able to tell our MP increased?
I'm assuming there's a way to sense mystic power, at least on a gross scale, if nothing else. Possibly even specific abilities with more resolution. They may not notice, of course.

>Soul fire
I'm hoping that once we get the new Deva online, it'll be less of a problem. The soul fire is basically the result of an inefficiency, right? We accumulate magical contamination or radiation when we spend moon points, because we are not converting all the energy to the task we want. There's waste. Hopefully, with a Deva on dedicated mystic energy management, the effect will be lessened.

> a Seeing soul with the Truth element would SEE the truth. Showing it is a different matter =/
I think that's too narrow an interpretation. I mean, Wordblood squeezes a hell of a lot under aiding with communication- he's even said he might one day be able to drop information right into people's heads (a sort of sneaky almost mind control communication!).

Showing is a really just the other side of sight, after all. Once party shows, the other sees what is shown. Showing exists to be seen.

>>63146
It doesn't say they always go to War. The exact wording was "Sharing Purposes usually causes war" so the best case scenario might actually mean they get along wonderfully but that it's extremely rare.

As for >Neither of them can be destroyed, either because Saulanna would refuse to allow it, because they would simply absorb each other, or because of the fact that they're both part of the same body and wouldn't even consider actually killing each other.

There are canon examples of Third Circle Devas betraying the Primordials they're part of in Exalted. Granalkin a former Third Circle Deva of the Primordial Mardukth, Who Holds In Thrall is now the warden of the Silver Chair, also known as "the Archer on the Silver Pass". Turned from Deva into a God by the Siderals after his betrayal. There's also Inari who was the actual Fetich soul of an unnamed Primordial who helped KILL said primordial. Nothing prevents Devas from offing one another.

>>63150
And i said 'tends to', not 'always'

=p

>>63150
Wordblood has said that the Queen can be remade by the Commoner/Noble Devas of her house. I assumed the same could be done for Lords.

Obviously, we should make the following souls:

Time
Raccoons
Time Raccoons
Raccoon Time
Time Raccoons Time

>>63152
The remade version is not the same Deva, just a Deva with the same Element and Purpose. And if they're going to War over the Deva butting in on their turf, having the Deva remade doesn't solve the problem. Devas can be killed, it's happened before, and the Nobles would almost certainly be involved in their Lord's War.

My real issue though is more that "Compete at best" when we were told usually they go to war implies there is always going to be some degree of strife between the two when we haven't been told that.

Huh, just noticed how often I keep capitalizing words that seem like they could be elements of a Deva regardless of the context I'm using the word in... I should try and stop that.

>>63172
Of course there will be conflict. They're roomates.

>>63163
>Time Raccoons of Time
...

Oh god forgive us, we knew not the horror we would unleash... D=

Y'know, "Raccoons" is picking up some speed. It's not too late for some of you "Time" people to change your minds.

>>63183
There should be a law that describes that. The longer you leave the voting open, the more people are going to drift to the silly choice.

Okay, look. As awesome an idea Raccoonbending is...
A) RACCOONS ARE NOT AN ELEMENT
B) It was generally agreed that even if it COULD be a Deva's element, Raccoons would be better for something OTHER than a feeding soul (generally either as something for battle or an ascended Hero's soul - though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.)
C) Wordblood's reaction, for the FIRST TIME THAT I CAN REMEMBER, was to not even comment on the potential ramifications of that choice. This is very, VERY bad.
And D), wasn't that a JOKE?!

>though why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know
When a weapon is a Deva, is it even possible to make it without sentience?

>why we would give a weapon sentience, I do not know.
For the same reason you build a giant mech instead of a tank.

Not because it's more practical, but because it's more awesome.

When I suggested "Raccoons" as an element, I was being completely serious. I didn't mean it as a joke, and I wasn't being silly. Perhaps it's a little lighthearted (plenty of good things are), but I believe it's a legitimate choice nonetheless.

A Lunar's spirit animal is a special aspect of them that speaks about them in a very personal way. And if it's good enough to be a powerful and defining theme for Saulanna as one of the Exalted, then I think it's good enough for Saulanna as a Primordial.

We also already have an example of a Primordial that is defined by a single animal, even though Gaia probably has a more general power over animal kind. While Kimbery is an ocean that gains power from oceans, who can control the oceans, whom all other oceans are a lesser reflection of, and Malfeas is a city that gains power from cities, and can control cities, and whom all other cities are a lesser reflection of, and so on... we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar.

He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.

So, Saulanna? I think, already having been defined as emphatically Raccoon-like, deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max.

>we also have Isidoros. The Black Boar. [...] He's a really big boar. Who does boar things. And defines boardom. One time he headbutted the end of time because he's a primordial-boar and it was in his way. I imagine he has a pompadour.
Sounds pretty boaring to me :V

>deserves dominion over all Raccoon kind, and the ability to be primordially Raccoon-to-the-max
I can accept that, but it doesn't make much sense as a feeder Deva. We need a more appropriate purpose for dominion over all raccoondom.

Fill in an appropriate word, and we'll create the <foo> of Raccoons when we've got some Titan's will to spare. Don't worry, it won't take much... time. B)

>>63188
We're TALKING about the HERO'S SOUL *twitch*

>>63189
You don't make that mech able to think for itself, though! Why would you give a weapon you're supposed to control YOURSELF the ability to make decisions?! All you're doing is increasing the likelihood you won't be able to control it.

>>63190
Oh yeah, it was SUCH a serious suggestion that should be making raccoon ropes, raccoon waves and a raccoon bazooka.

>>63191
>boaring
*facepalm*

>>63191
Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

>>63193
Summoner? Warrior?

>it won't take much... time. B)
... *sigh* well, got to now.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH~!

>>63202
>Okay, he's a giant boar. And that means he's got a Lordly Deva with the boar element? We don't have a human element just because we're human >.>

Eh, Isidoros does embody a lot of the characteristics Boars are usually used to represent. That could very well mean he just has Third Circle Demons devoted to those concepts though. Probably more likely to be the case actually since he's really a Black Hole in the shape of a Boar. Basically a representation of an unstoppable force. He has a minimum of Eighteen Third Circle Demons though, so he may very well have one specifically with an element of Boars.

Wait a minute...
How was 'Energy' never been suggested as an element for a soul devoted to energy absorption and management?

>>63204
The Dragon's Shadow doesn't have a Soul with the Element of Dragons; just aspects of Shadowy, Slithery, and Slickness (among others) that add up to giving him the form of a dragon. Who is to say that Isidoros is not the same?

>>63205
A little too broad (and rather non-evocative) to my imagination; 'Energy' includes kinetic, and thermal, and electromagnetic, and Essence, and excitement, and, simply put, is too undefined/unrestricted. How do you define 'Energy'?

>How do you define 'Energy'?
Simple. The capacity of a system to do work.

Although in this setting, you'd have to expand the definition to include more than just physical systems, and you'd have to include forms of energy that don't show up in your average textbook.

But yeah, physics aside, it's really not interesting enough to work with. It's like doubling down on the purpose to no gain. He who Produces and Regulates Mystic Energy through Energy is kinda dull.

>>63205
Will would serve the same purpose (with Titan's Will as the specific energy we are dealing with) as well as doing other useful stuff.

...Ya know, I'm beginning to think TIME is going to win. Just a feeling.

>>63209
Unrestricted? have you taken a look at us lately? We have the opportunity to eventually gain complete dominion over anything and everything!

Elements are supposed to be extremely broad, especially for Lordly Devas. we're supposed to eventually refine them with sub-souls. I find Time to be totally wasted as element for energy generation/management and extremely boring to boot. What are we going to do when we need some extra TW? Sit around and wait? We could be using Time to see into the past and future, improve our speed, reaction time, healing etc. Hell we could probably use it to speed up the processes of any other Feeder Deva we picked, and those aren't even being ambitious! think what we could have done when we got powerful enough to mess with the causality and time-space!

Of course this is all pretty much moot, unless people start deleting their votes and re-casting we're going to be stuck with Time or (Sol Invictus Help Us!) Raccoons.

>>63225
By 'unrestricted', I meant that 'Energy' can rather easily be expanded to absurdity. That is, Essence is a form of energy and therefore a strong case can be made that the Element 'Energy' should cover Essence. The entirety of the Exalted universe (Creation+Yu Shan+Malfeas+the Underworld+Pure Chaos+...), is made of Essence. (Barring some weirdness like Oblivion, Elsewhere.) Therefore, a Feeding Soul of Energy can eat the entire universe. I hope that I do not need to explain why being able to eat the universe is a bad thing.

TD;DR: unrestricted=goddamn too broad in scope
>What are we going to do when we need some extra TW?
Eat souls. The only method we currently have so far, and the only method that we will have even after we create the Feeding Soul. The bonus provided by the Element is small and really only serves to give thematic structure toward its powers.

>lets forget that people give a damn about casualty (and there are Incarna whose jobs are to enforce casualty)!
...Seriously? You want to fuck with casualty and space-time? Really?

>>63225
>>63230

Energy has the same problem Civilization did:
>>62730
Specifically, Civilization had too many possible definitions, so we'd have to lock it in as one or another. (Civ also had the problem that many of those things were not primordial enough, but one thing at a time)

>>63230
I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea. I'm just saying that it's a waste of a good element.

>>63232
I disagree.

Civilization is complicated because it is a purely human concept and it's definition is hazy at best. A civilization is when a groups technology, social structure, laws, beliefs, media, etc. have advanced past some ill defined point. It is a theme, not an element.

Energy is simpler, with a quick google I found: 'The property of matter and radiation that is manifest as a capacity to perform work' and 'Power derived from the utilization of physical or chemical resources'.

There are a lot of types of energy but it is still fundamentally energy. Civilization has a lot of aspects but no one of them makes a civilization. If anything Energy is a small element. Just for some scope and precedent; we just learned that Gaia has a second level soul for Energy (not linking, never works and the post is enormous. Just search for 'Hesiesh') and a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.

This quest needs more Devil-Tigers.

We haven't met our bondmate yet have we?

>>63242
The Energy of Hesiesh is expressed via his Element of Fire, so we can safely say that thermal energy is entirely within its domain. As Lightning is part of the Air of Mela, and Light and Passion belong to other Nobles of Hesiesh, we can safely say that electricity and light as well as non-physical energy are not included in its domain. Magnetism may be included, but since light is not, then we can say that it is problably not included in the Energy Noble's domain. Kinetic Energy possibly may be included, though I think unlikely. Essence may be included, but likely the breadth of aspected Essence it can manipulate is limited to at least non-opposing aspects, if not only (closely-)related aspects.

There, a small, very short, speculative paragraph on the breadth and limits of the Energy domain, derived from what we know in Lunar Quest canon (Lightning being part of Air is Exalted canon, however).

The important thing you should take from this, is that all those things that I said are not part of the Energy Noble's domain? Include them in the potential Energy domain of the possible Lord Soul. Include everything and anything that could be described as energy. (Don't limit yourself to just real world physics, though I think the definition provided is too broad, because Exalted has fictional natural laws as well.)

So, Passion, Light, Fire, Lightning, all those are part of Energy. Essence, from Moon Essence to Earth Essence to Demon Essence to Death Essence (...well, probably not Death Essence), is part of Energy.

Everything is made of Essence. If Energy includes Essence - which it should - then Saulanna, with one Soul, can do anything.

>a bit of research shows that Oramus has souls for Chaos, Change and/or Randomness. There is nothing he cannot touch with those.
I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the discussion we are having. Is this meant to refer to Energy?

Also, for cross-board linking, include the board and only use the post number to which you are linking. See below
>>/quest/468303
that should link to the Jukashi's Element feedback post.

>>63250


If i remember correctly it's been implied and speculated (both in and out of the story) that Peregrin is our bondmate, since Abyssals are formed from Solar Exaltations. Ya'd think we'd have a special sense for that, but I wouldn't know.

>>63242

>I'm not saying that I want to or even that it's a good Idea.
>or even that it's a GOOD IDEA
Uh...
>that it's a waste of a GOOD ELEMENT.
... XP

That definition doesn't really tell us much, since the only definition we have in this universe is for physical manifestations of energy. What TYPE of energy? Potential energy? (i don't wanna be a weeping angel D=) Kinetic energy? Thermal? Electro-magnetic? Mechanical? And that's just OUR universe. What about temporal energy? Magical? Titanic? Essence? Whatever it is Fate uses to affect reality? Elsewhere's 'boredom'? (admittedly, those last two are a stretch >.> I'm not really sure how boredom is formed into a separate plane - i assumed it was a form of potential energy or something)

>>63255
I thought at some point it was explicitly stated that Peregrin was NOT our bondmate?

>>63256
I dunno, maybe. My memory's kinda fuzzy and I came in partway through Chapter 2 =/

Unrelated: Can we make a Song Deva, so can we sing songs to make ourselves stronger in ludicrous fashions?

>>63225
Here's a quote from Jukashi for you

>Also, I know balance isn't exactly a priority in Lunar Quest, but I'm going to come out and say that in general, the broader you go, the weaker you'll be in specifics; and, the more specialized you go, the stronger you'll be within said specialization.

Also, a Deva of Energy might restrict what other Devas we can make way too much by blocking waaaaaay too many elements.

In regards Energy... don't think too scientifically about it. This is a fantasy, mythology-inspired universe, after all; one where every object and even every universal principle has some magical being attached to it, and reality is upheld by gods and by the expectations and interactions of living beings. Energy is any motive force, but it has more association with willpower and motivation than anything else, even when applied to inanimate objects.

That said, it is too broad for a Lord deva, really. As the sub-Element supporting a Noble deva, however, it's restricted by nature, either as the expression of a fraction of its parent Element, or as that part of its Element that is thematically linked with its parent. So Hesiesh's Energy subsoul could be specifically limited to forms of energy under the dominion of Fire, with further considerations due to the metaphysics of the setting. So in more contemporary forms, its dominion would be heat, and to a more limited level, kinetic force. Alternately, the word "Energy" could be being used in a more metaphorical way, as "life energy", referring to the fire-like processes that fuel the actions of living creatures.

After all, in Exalted, flesh and blood are earthly, physical substances, and so are formed from the Terrestrial Elements; living flesh and blood are hot, so they must contain Fire, just the same way you breathe so you must have Air in you, your blood is wet so you have Water in you, you grow and heal so you have Wood in you, and your bones are hard so you have Earth in you. Similarly, the Light soul would refer not to actual photons being beamed out, but to a forceful, spiritual substance - something that you can make physical objects out of - and which reveals secrets and pushes away darkness. The darkness which, in turn, is an elemental substance and power source in its own right, not merely an absence. Even the actual, official end-all nothingness of the setting, the Void, Oblivion itself, is something that you can shoot at people.

So you have to readjust your mental parameters a little.

I kind of want to start making tons of devas now. The next two we should make as a matching set. Dark and Light, Order and Chaos, Life and Death, that sort of thing. Truth and Deception? Hm... maybe.

Although, even though they are opposites, they are also somewhat related. Could you have a subdeva of one for the other? That would be interesting.

>I kind of want to start making tons of devas now.

I know, right? Now that we're here, I keep wanting to make a second soul and call it the feeding Deva's twin or something ridiculous like that.

...

Thought. If we happened to discover how our Hero's soul worked, would we be able to create our own Exalted?

... I mean sure, it seems like something we'd need Autocthon's help for, but it's an interesting thought, at least.

>>63270
How do I shot time?

... I was counting up the votes for fun, and i realized that i forgot to delete one of my vote posts after reposting another one.

...Woops =( I'll go fix that

....aaand apparently i can't >.> Well f***.

>>63308
Go to #tgchan and ask a mod to delete your post then.

>>63309
...
Where?

>>63310

Chat room. #tgchan on Rizon.

Actually, it's easier to just report your own post to ask for it to be deleted.

>>63313
... uh...

>>63315
Ah, okay.

---

So for some reason i couldn't report the post either (da fug?) so i went to that Rizon thing i knew nothing about. slinkoboy took care of it.

Thank you slink! =3

>>63317
>couldn't report the post
I don't understand. Are you pushing the Report button after clicking the checkbox on the post?

We need a deva for PASSION.

That would be AWESOME.

>>63318
Yes. It said something like 'failed to report, go back and try again'. I went and asked a mod directly, it got removed.

>>63321
You mean Desire? That was suggested and had a decent following but hasn't really made it in.

>>63326

Passion and desire are completely different. Desire is the want of something, passion is emotional excitement.

Come to think of it, a Deva of "AWESOME" would also be pretty awesome.

>>63339
>Deva of AWESOME

I'LL BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR

>>63339
Normally, yes. But 'Desire' as was being suggested here had the connotations of 'lust', which isn't that far from passion.

>Deva of Awesome
FUCK YEAAAAAH!!!

This could be ours, if you all would only bow to the raccoon.

(Saulanna) Mythos Exultant
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: First (Saulanna) Excellency

Whenever Saulanna succeeds while stunting on an action that could benefit from her Excellency, she may choose to forgo any number of bonus stunting dice she would normally receive. For each die forsaken in this way, put a 1/1 green 'Raccoon token' with Haste into a space adjacent to Saulanna. If there is a face within (Essence x 2) yards, Saulanna may instead create the Raccoons on that face, rather than putting them adjacent to herself.

Freaking hell, there are 70 responses in the main thread. That's just too much. I guess this is kinda popular, huh? Jukashi, next time you might wanna put a time limit on responses so you don't get so damn many.

Everyone needs to go and change their votes to:
1.AWESOME
2.AWESOME
3.AWESOME
now.

That would be pretty awesome.

>>63354
Clearly, the only solution is to update every thirty minutes so as to avoid being flooded by suggestions.

>>63353
This is a feeding soul. Raccoons obviously needs to be saved for a different kind of soul that doesn't force us to eat raccoons. Have you ever eaten a raccoon? It's awful.

"awesome" should also be good for a feeding soul because, being exalted, Saulana should be surrounded by elemental awesome pretty frequently.

Amirite?

Jukashi!!WzMJSzZzWx 2012/11/10(Sat)01:15 No. 63368 ID: 52daec
File 135253890859.png - (328.96KB , 384x800 , explodingknees.png )

>Deva of Awesome

Next update's gonna take a while to get drawn, by the way.

>>63368
This bodes well. :D

>>63368
Out of curiosity how much of that is due to designing the Deva? Always curious about how long character design takes.

>>63376

I actually already had designs for a few of the elements that seemed like they'd be most popular.

If we're going time, he better have a moustache!

well, unless it's a lady, a lady with a moustache would be kinda wierd.

>>63368
This one better have drills

>>63379
Let's give him a stetson! Or a bow tie!

Even in exalted, bow ties are still cool

>>63378
Thank goodness. That means we don't have to endure a further delay of a secondary character creation process in the middle of the quest, or have to deal with a million attempts to craft it into an Expy of some kind.

>>62936
>>63073

I'm posting this in response to these ones because they're the only ones that talk about it that I can find without rereading the entire thread:

We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us. It is as impossible as Ligier or Kagami "overthrowing" Malfeas or Szoreny to become them, or for your left arm to overthrow and become YOU. Remember that the King or Queen soul in the canon game is called the "Fetich" soul or the Primordial's "Heart", they largely define their Primordial progenerator, but that's because their progenerator chose to imbue them with things that define them. Their soul pantheons are called the "Descending Hierarchy" for a reason. The devas or demons (or even the baleful Hecatonchires of the Neverborn) of a Titan are explanation of the Titan; the map is not the territory so to speak... or in our case, the definition is not the word.

Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords. Although, it probably wouldn't be outside our power to do so, if we so chose; hasn't Kimbery done this by canon? On that note, it also wouldn't be outside our, or even our Lordly souls', power to create Common souls directly: Orabilis of Cecelyne does with his Eyes, and all of Autochthon's Divine Ministers do as well.

>>63399
>We have not to worry of usurpation from our lower souls, because no soul that we create could possibly usurp us.
>Secondly, Saulanna doesn't NEED to create Noble souls, for her Lordly souls are to her as the Nobles are to the Lords.
This is explicitly wrong. You should probably review the original description we got from Wordblood regarding our soul structure; while Saulanna has a strong natural position and the basic loyalty of her Lord devas, they are most certainly not as to her as her Nobles are and there is the (usually small) possibility of losing Queen status to one of them. Here are some handy links and quotes.

>>58020
>We are both Lords, and as is natural for Lords, one of us is raised to the level of King - or, in this case, Queen. Though in a sense we are equals, the Queen bears the balance of power - her nature dominates and dictates the interactions of all other souls, and she forms the central nexus and root of our identity as a Titan. The other Lords are subservient to her. Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn assert dominion over their Commoners.

>>58102
>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them.

indeed, which is why we were saying calling one 'the master' would put it in a dangerous position, since we are calling it by a high status it would feel it more deserves to be the leader.

...you know, that's actually a good reason to not make a dedicated social combat Deva. That would kind of put them in the position of natural mediator between the various Lords.

>>63402
I guess I was wrong then: I was working off of knowledge from the original game line, specifically the (Yozi) Cosmic Principle charm from Return of the Scarlet Empress. I didn't even know any of that was there actually,

>>63409

I disagree. Make a dedicated social one, but make it a noble soul of ours instead of lordly.

>>63399
From wordblood's talk on the matter, it is indeed possible for a Queen to be usurped, and expected of us to make nobles and commoners like any other noble deva:

>>58020
>Each Lord, then - including the Queen - is progenitor of a House of Nobles, who in turn...
>if the former Queen's House has been weakened, or another House is getting too strong, the death of the Queen will shift the balance and a new King or Queen will be raised from one of the other Lords; then, though the old Queen's house will survive and she may be continued as a Lord, the focus of the kingdom's identity - the Titan's identity - will shift and they may become vastly different.

>>58102
Wordblood implies here that Lords compete with each other, and outright says that the Queen can be usurped by other Lords, if those other Lords prefer that Lord or if they become the 'center' around which the other Lords revolve.

So the question becomes, can a Lord kill a queen or cause her to be killed of it's own volition?

Well, Wordblood is our aide and is naturally inclined to help us, so he's going to be less inclined to even consider the possibility. So let's take a look at what he says, and assume that he's biased against the idea that killing Saulanna is something any Deva would consider.

No offense. In fact I think that's a compliment >.>

>"Being Queen is less about being the most powerful and more about being the "centre" around which other Lords revolve. Power does come into it, but it's also a matter of the relationships between the various devas; if another Lord appears who is a more natural "leader" for a majority of their fellows, it is possible that supremacy will shift onto them. However, this usually only happens either if the original King or Queen is severely injured, or if the Titan in question is deliberately trying to evolve into a somewhat different being. Making new devas and shifting their internal power structure is how fully grown Titans grow and change."

He says that lordly devas compete with each other, and that the Queen is not necessarily different in her own nature - simply with how the other lords interact with her. While the lords are subservient to her, this does not mean they are loyal. It seems to me that the Queen status is a much more informal status than Lord, Noble or Commoner.

To me, this implies the following: Even assuming a Deva can't kill Saulanna (possible, but i doubt it) they could, for instance, come up with ideas and plans the other devas find more attractive than what the queen comes up with. If the other Devas respect, admire, or look up to the other Deva more than Saulanna (or if Saulanna decides the other Deva is doing a better job) power could shift.

...That was very confused and rambling @_@

supposedly this is how the ebon dragon turned into the dragon's shadow, he cannibalized himself changing his identity.