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File 137138632038.png - (11.67KB , 600x400 , dungeoneer_disc.png )
72355 No. 72355 ID: 325550

Might be a premature, but I'm quite confident we're going to have ALL OF THE TALKING once dungeon design really gets rolling.

Also this little dragony guy needs a name!
Expand all images
>>
No. 72356 ID: 325550
File 137138685164.png - (23.37KB , 630x330 , golem_mook_trials.png )
72356

>>/quest/516512

Also I needed a place to say GLEEEEEEEEE.

And here's some of the unused concepts I was playing around with for golem minions. I am likely to recycle some elements here for other golems (or maybe upgrades to the main golem), so I'm curious which bits people like.
>>
No. 72357 ID: bf54a8

those are some cute golems.
>>
No. 72359 ID: 94fca5

We shall be the prettiest Golem avatar that is actually a Dungeon heart that will ever exist.
>>
No. 72365 ID: 2f4b71

>>72356
I like that the chest segments of the leftmost golem form what looks like a collar & tie. If the Banking Dungeon actually becomes a possibility, I am 100% behind Plan Businessgolem.
>>
No. 72368 ID: 2ddb7b

hurr i like the nekkid bits durr
>>
No. 72369 ID: eaa372

>>72365
If the banking dungeon gets built I'd suggest calling the quasi dragon Executive Chairman Charles.
>>
No. 72371 ID: 47a120

>>72357
aren't they just the most adorable?
>>
No. 72384 ID: 9ddf68

lets name the dragon slug

why slug you ask, well it's simply because I suck with names and it was the first one to pop into my head. That and no one else was coming up with anything.
>>
No. 72385 ID: 19b3c3

>Charles
I like it. I'm sure we can come up with other titles as appropriate.

>all our creatures are adorable
...man, combat is going to be painful when it happens.
>>
No. 72386 ID: 810235

>>72355
cute quest so far,love it!
>>
No. 72389 ID: bf54a8

we are NOT going to build a dungeon anywhere NEAR a town. that is just asking for trouble. lots of it.
>>
No. 72390 ID: f2c20c

>>72389
I gotta agree with this.
>>
No. 72391 ID: 2ddb7b

I'd much rather name him Carlton.
>>
No. 72425 ID: 427e9c

>>72391
Dunno, he looks like more of a chester to me.
>>
No. 72443 ID: 4d9a4c

Deem is a verb meaning 'to pronounce judgment' and also 'to form an opinion'. Entymologically, it's related to 'doom'! And, well, De eM.

I am perhaps too fond of complicated meta-puns!

>>/quest/517310
>I meant your minions could hunt in the forest but meh it doesn't matter now
It's probably time to clarify my decision making progress. While I am letting things be influenced by which options are popular, I am also looking at the reasons behind them!

In this case, the mountain was winning out over the forest, but I felt it was worth mentioning the food issue that the mountain would create. So yeah, I am going to chop and paste comments if they're useful for demonstrating something.
>>
No. 72445 ID: 4d9a4c
File 137156077088.png - (36.05KB , 420x360 , this_is_what_my_mouse_drawing_looks_like.png )
72445

Also to avoid confusion later, I thought I should emphasise that the dreaded unreliable narrator is at work. Some of Deem's info is literally hundreds of years out of date!

You may have also noticed terrible people skills.
>>
No. 72454 ID: d59dc9

>>72443

that is a good way to run a quest.

your style almost reminds me of Farmer. you run any quests before?
>>
No. 72465 ID: 9ddf68

>>72443
guess it also depend on what we have for minions, I mean I don't think and army of golems will have much need for a huge stockpile of fruit or grain
>>
No. 72472 ID: b13f2d

>>72454
I did try one about a year ago here but it was a different style and imploded more or less immediately due to lack of a good plan.

>>72465
Ah, but what if they were fruit golems? I daresay fruit would be essential then.
>>
No. 72476 ID: 9ddf68

>>72472
if we get to a point where we have nothing left to to defend ourselves with but fruit golems then I'm pretty sure we would be screwed either way, with or without a mountain of fruit.
>>
No. 72502 ID: 87f756

I really enjoy quest updates that end on a really vital serious decision.

Other than that this quest has the cutest golem of all time.
>>
No. 72503 ID: cf49fc

>>72502
I think the Cave Quasi Dragon is the most adorable mascot ever.
>>
No. 72504 ID: 00d261
File 137167332605.jpg - (483.63KB , 700x806 , minecraft__iron_golem_by_kinla-d4tu3og.jpg )
72504

>>72502

the Minecraft ones are cuter.
>>
No. 72506 ID: bf54a8

>>72504
minecraft ones are HANDSOME. dungeoneer ones are CUTE/SEXY
>>
No. 72509 ID: bc8d67

I think the quasi-dragon looks like a "Louis" - "Lou" for short.

And I'm diggin' the art style in the quest; The golems are adorable.
>>
No. 72603 ID: 256d52
File 137187430855.png - (11.34KB , 350x450 , also_called_doll_mages.png )
72603

In this quest I wanted to make it so all wizards have some sort of specialty. There'll be alchemists, doll mages, alterists, hex-smiths and so on.

Since I wanted to suggest their specialty, I gave golemeters very bulky robes and little face and hand motifs. Merud's hat is a real kind of hat called a biretta.

And yes, as the design hints, they do use animate clothing to defend themselves.
>>
No. 72605 ID: e3aff6

>>72603
I like those cloak-hands so much I will even refrain from the obvious pun.
>>
No. 72620 ID: 933f92

>>72603
>Even more backing for the believability of the long-distance magus lie

yaaaay
>>
No. 72622 ID: bf54a8

>>72620
of course, we are talking to perhaps one of the few people that can just go "bullshit". they would know what golems can do.
>>
No. 72645 ID: e3aff6

>>72622
On the other hand, isn't a remotely controlled golem more or less what that body actually is? The only real deception is what is on the other end of the line and the fact that we have a piece of our soul or whatever built into it.
>>
No. 72647 ID: bf54a8

>>72645
yes, but he looked right at the red spot on our chest and was like "oh i see", he knows EXACTLY what's going on.
>>
No. 72648 ID: f2c20c

>>72647
Do you think these mages are that familiar with dungeon hearts to be able to recognize even a fragment of one?
>>
No. 72649 ID: bf54a8

what is there to describe it? "red sphere, sentient"
red crystal spheres could be banned to prevent mages from mixing the two up.
>>
No. 72655 ID: e3aff6

>>72647
So he can likely recognize it as a piece of a dungeon heart. I don't see how he would connect it to being connected to a living dungeon heart, because I would think that being in pieces would imply being dead unless this sort of thing happens often.
>>
No. 72659 ID: bf54a8

perhaps they change color when they die? changing from a healthy blood red to a duller red.
>>
No. 72674 ID: 2645fa

>>72647

unless he was staring at Deem's tits. I know I would.
>>
No. 72685 ID: cf49fc

>>72674
"Pervert," said One, hypocritically ignoring his vast collection of [REDACTED]
>>
No. 72738 ID: 256d52

I just thought that you should know I'll be off without internet for the rest of the week and felt leaving it on that cliffhanger was a bit too cruel.
>>
No. 72739 ID: cf49fc

>>72738
Ouch. Network outages, or camping?
>>
No. 73482 ID: 256d52
File 137355947552.png - (4.80KB , 360x360 , quasidragon_neutral.png )
73482

Oops, forgot this was a thing!

>>72739
Work trips and questionable hotel internet!

Alas another update was derailed by my love of silly faces. Hard to beat this little guy's neutral face though.

And yes, by 'Boss Mode' I do mean go nuts* with boss transformation ideas. Going One Winged Angel if you'd prefer to dive into the TV tropes titles.

*As long as it's not too difficult to draw.
>>
No. 73484 ID: cf49fc
File 137357073945.jpg - (77.90KB , 795x395 , Sakra Devanam Indra Deus.jpg )
73484

>>73482
Any limit on size?
>>
No. 73485 ID: 00d635

>>73484
upvoted this!
>>
No. 73486 ID: 47a120
File 137357923799.jpg - (104.73KB , 640x610 , Earthmother_121010_005540-8x6.jpg )
73486

>>523715
>All those suggestions to be larger, with bigger boobs.
see picture
>>
No. 73487 ID: 23b97a

Meh, I don't see why her proportions have to change when we blow her up to ten feet tall and cover her with glowing armor, magic swords, extra arms, crazy runes and power lines, one wing and/or spider limbs.

Deem is a dungeon heart who identifies as a little blue golem girl and there ain't nothing wrong with that. :V
>>
No. 73488 ID: 47a120

>>73487
I agree, big boobs mana batteries are NOT a prerequisite to being beautiful.
>>
No. 73490 ID: cf49fc
File 137358154974.jpg - (151.62KB , 1280x720 , tg Admins approacheth.jpg )
73490

>>73487
>>73486
Perverts. Why doesn't anyone ever go for the simpler archetypes? The Giant of Light is an underutilized pattern in modern fiction, dammit!
>>
No. 73491 ID: cf49fc
File 137358176032.jpg - (11.91KB , 500x375 , Colossus.jpg )
73491

>>73490
Come oooon, the last time we got to play a Giant was MORDRE, and he hardly ever crushed any pitiful fools!
>>
No. 73492 ID: 47a120

>>73490
>perverts
what?
in >>73486 I am posting a picture that is TECHNICALLY what people asked for (making her larger and more curvaceous) while being very "earthy" AND hideously ugly.
It is a joke at the expense of the actual perverts
>>
No. 73493 ID: 2f4b71

Clearly in this case, 'Boss' means 'CEO'. Banking dungeon, ho!
>>
No. 73495 ID: 47a120

>>73493
HA! that is an awesome idea.
Does that mean she gets a monocle and a top hap?
>>
No. 73509 ID: 5fd94e

If I may make a suggestion if you go the quick and nimble route I suggest having copies of yourself with the real you having some slight tell and being tougher than the rest.
>>
No. 73510 ID: bf54a8

it sounds like all the other dungeons around are ether using hearts that are essentially zombie hearts, reanimated dead ones that do what their master commands, or artificially created ones.
>>
No. 73511 ID: c23ab0

>>73486

o bby
>>
No. 73512 ID: cf49fc

>>73509
But that just means you've got a load of useless fetchers who die, and you're under the effect of a haste spell. That whole "Split into five guys" thing never works. Not even in NARUTO.
>>
No. 73519 ID: bf54a8

we DON'T want cliche.

also technically it does work in naruto but only when they act as one BIG guy. like they all grab each other by the ankles to become a naruto ladder. or they do combo moves.
>>
No. 73520 ID: 5fd94e

>>73512

But it's a standard cliché for fast type boss's and it looks cool.
>>
No. 73533 ID: 256d52
File 137362650871.png - (12.29KB , 400x550 , quasizilla.png )
73533

>>73484
>Any limit on size?
As a general rule, the boss should fit inside the boss room.

Room to manoeuvre tends to be useful as well.
>>
No. 73534 ID: 5d4146

As a general rule guys, we shouldn't JUST design a boss. We're designing a boss battle, and we should plan as such.
I suggested either a large room for wings, or a climby room for the monkey.
But we can do all sorts of things. For example, while a big scary boss is traditional, if we have a smaller, faster boss, we can do fun things like be a lurking horror as the Adventurers wander though the dungeon (think Pikman 2's ghost roller guy, or some other boss that shows up before you get to beat him.)
We have technical potential advantages over most other dungeons. But we can also make ours the most fun, epic dungeon crawl experience EVER!!!
>>
No. 73535 ID: ea4b0b

>>73534
Ooh, that gave me an idea, actually: a non-lethal version of the Game.
It would work like this: People can pay two fees, one to just play the game, which will have no returns wether they win or lose. Or, alternatively, they can pay a significantly higher fee to allow for them to have a chance at doubling their wealth.
This will allow us to gain money (and therefore mana) at a meteoric rate, while keeping the harrowers off our ass by being a nice and fluffy amusement park of a dungeon.
We can also have waivers ready for a THIRD difficulty level with an absolutely extortionate fee that, while allowing for them to actually die if they attempt it, and of course being the highest possible difficulty, will give them three times what they put in as well as perhaps some secondary prize of some sort, like perhaps a sword or something!
In addition, by structuring it this way we will be allowed to come up with new and fantastical Ideas, such as a horror-y Amnesia type thing where you have to avoid roving bands of grotesquely deformed monsters by hiding defenseless in a closet or something, or another one where you have to ride in a minecart across a lava pit...
really there is a lot of potential in the theme park idea, especially if we can also charge people to be able to watch the proceedings and hedge bets on who will and will not win!
>>
No. 73540 ID: 60bf07

>>73534
Well, in general a dangerous boss should have a good ranged attack to go after the tricky types of adventurers. As far as I can tell our boss form is unrelated to spellcasting ability, so that leaves a physical ranged attack. Maybe we could get the giant arms and then throw boulders? Or perhaps we could have a room with a flat floor, curved walls, and a supply of spherical boulders to go bowling for adventurers with boulders that roll back when they reach the edges of the room.

Now that I think about it, we should try to find out the type of adventurers we will be dealing with. It is important to know whether our opponents will be more like Link or like a tank+healer+dps raid group.
>>
No. 73547 ID: cf49fc
File 137364440266.jpg - (320.73KB , 658x933 , Annor Long Archers GIVE NO FUCKS.jpg )
73547

>>73540
Throwing boulders are just asking for an adventurer to hurl them back in our face, knocking us over and exposing our weakpoint. I suggest large bolts, or arrows...
>>
No. 73553 ID: 60bf07

>>73547
What if we hollow out the rolling boulders and fill them with magma or acid? (An adventurer's weapon presentably has a smaller surface area than enormous boss fists, so it would crack through the other shell much more easily).
We could also keep some spiked metal balls to roll, and then magnetize them (because a great many adventurers use metal equipment or armor, but we are made out of stone). Now that I think about it, there is great potential for hilarity with magnetic traps in general, assuming adventurers don't use stuff made from non-magnetic mithril/adamantine/whatever.
>>
No. 73554 ID: cf49fc

>>73553
>Magnetic balls of magma and spikes
Okay, I just want you to think about this for a minute: Will this hurt if I get hit with it? Will it survive an impact with a sloped wall or a particularly beefy adventurer?

If the answer is yes, it has no part in a boss fight, as it's just giving the Chosen One free hits on us.
>>
No. 73555 ID: beeca1

>>73554
How about we have an aura that deals unblockable damage? Heat, gravity, pure magic, whatever.
>>
No. 73559 ID: 60bf07

>>73554
To clarify what I was trying to say about the magma shells, the point thoses is that they would burst when hit by an adventurer but not when thrown or caught by us, because things take much less force to break when contacting with a much smaller surface area (such as an adventurer's weapon compared to a giant stone hand). Yes, they could theoretically have a cheap projectile-reverse spell, but that would apply to any non-magic ranged attack.

With the magnetic spheres, I don't think it is that huge of a stretch to think that it would be very difficult to deflect a huge magnet with a weapon made of metal. Some adventurers don't use metal weapons, but for them we could just not throw the magnetic spheres.

We could get rid of the returning wall if you want, though I really don't think that would cause much trouble for us because we would see the returning projectiles well in advance and be able to catch or sidestep them.
>>
No. 73608 ID: 256d52
File 137380957816.png - (9.20KB , 600x400 , some_quest_features_not_yet_implemented.png )
73608

Regrettably I haven't had time to rush out an update before my trip, so it's going to be up to a week before I have the opportunity to do so.

Designing bosses is time consuming!

>>73540
>Now that I think about it, we should try to find out the type of adventurers we will be dealing with. It is important to know whether our opponents will be more like Link or like a tank+healer+dps raid group.
A little from column A, a little from column B! There will be options to tailor things towards being more of a puzzle dungeon or more of a fighty dungeon.
>>
No. 73814 ID: 256d52
File 137429688442.png - (79.22KB , 640x500 , deem_all_of_the_bosses_reference.png )
73814

The plan from the start was to use as many suggestions for the boss form as possible to reflect a whole pile of random transformations.

I was half expecting to end up with an Akira-esque pile of organs so I guess well played, /quest?

It's a bit cluttered to use for a real boss form though, as you can see from this thing I drew to work out how it all fits together.

Note it's still missing half the features!
>>
No. 73815 ID: c95833

I think we want pared down, more focused designs for actual boss fights.

Preferably, we should design more than one so we can choose the correct form to adapt to different threats. Not every group of adventures gets to fight the same thing.

Like, we have agile multi-attack spider form, or a tanking heavy armor form, etc.
>>
No. 73819 ID: 9ddf68

we could do multiple boss forms that change throughout the fight. Like Starting with a big armored form that follows the kinda slow but strong and can take on hell of a beating stereotype then have a smaller spider like form that is quick and can clime walls and other surfaces, then have the last one be just slightly larger then our normal size that is very spell focused. Just an idea.
>>
No. 73831 ID: 933f92

>>73814
Whatever we pare off, the boobs and hips stay.
>>
No. 73834 ID: 60e498

>>73814
In spite of how crazy /quest/ might seem, once they get an idea on their head they tend to stick with it.
>>
No. 73845 ID: 47a120

While adorable... how does a golem body even blush?
>>
No. 73846 ID: 2fc3e9

>>73845
The same way it exists in the first place: MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGIC
>>
No. 73850 ID: 2f4b71

>>73814
>Insect legs fold into skirt
That's really cool!
>>
No. 73866 ID: 256d52
File 137437526013.png - (26.12KB , 500x720 , have_at_you.png )
73866

>>73850
>>Insect legs fold into skirt
>That's really cool!
They have many uses!
>>
No. 73869 ID: 9ddf68

I take it that the spider legs is one of the forms you would like to keep
>>
No. 73871 ID: 76b151

>>73869
I'd like to keep them as well. Hella useful.
>>
No. 73881 ID: cf49fc

>>73866
Best form.
>>
No. 73883 ID: 9f7acd

>>73866
Classiest limbs ever. This must continue to be a thing.
>>
No. 74050 ID: 256d52
File 137484738257.png - (39.33KB , 420x360 , golem_hairs.png )
74050

>Chakarchelou
Because "Charles Carton Chester Louis" was too long. Even if it sounds hella dignified.

Spoilers: Most people are just going to call the quasidragon Charcoal instead. Thank you, #tgchan!

I did also like "Slug", but felt he needed a name that would look good in boss subtitles, just in case.

>Pic unrelated
This is just a few of the designs I was trialing for longer haired boss form.

The second hair colour mainly entertains me because it's the colour of Deem's "blood".
>>
No. 74072 ID: 9f7acd

>>74050
>The second hair colour mainly entertains me because it's the colour of Deem's "blood".
The whole thing being that shade doesn't work very well imo, but suppose she had mana-blood highlights or streaks through her hair? Or similar patterned effect for the stoney hair. Could add some nice contrast while also bringing the overall design together.
>>
No. 74464 ID: 68ac42

Deem's short hair keeps reminding me of Little Lulu.

"though you're wild as any Zulu and you're just as hard to tame, Little Lulu I love youlu just the same."
>>
No. 74465 ID: 256d52
File 137536345264.png - (25.34KB , 500x700 , D&D.png )
74465

>>/quest/528394
>That reminds me, didn't we specifically increase breast size?
>>/quest/528402
>It was suggested, yes. It didn't happen either because there was backlash in dis, or because Deem didn't want it to.
This has reminded me of something I was meaning to mention! But quickly on chests specifically, I found I kept making Deem's bigger because I was worried it might not be obvious enough. :V

>>73487
>Meh, I don't see why her proportions have to change when we blow her up to ten feet tall and cover her with glowing armor, magic swords, extra arms, crazy runes and power lines, one wing and/or spider limbs.
I found I wanted Deem to look physically larger rather than just rescaling her, so I did tweak her proportions in addition to changes that were specifically suggested (which basically boiled down to a bigger bust and wider hips as far as body type goes). To help suggest a change in scale, she's got a slightly larger body relative to her head and longer legs.

>Or, more logically, everything that did happen is something we had a preexisting spell channel for- that Deem must have considered a useful enhancement at one time or another in the past. She obviously never saw the point in setting up that particular enhancement. :V
There's only a one-to-one mapping of spells to channels for the really optimised ones that people cast a lot.

Or for when you only know specific spells from a certain discipline instead of having more general knowledge of it.
>>
No. 74467 ID: bf54a8

yeah i noticed her boobs were bigger right away, some people don't look at images at full size. :V
>>
No. 74468 ID: b5df96

>a whole post doing nothing but rebuking my boobs theories
...I don't know whether to be more ashamed of that, or the fact I left enough enough of those theories laying around for it to be possible in the first place.

>>74467
Even if you do look full size, it's not exactly obvious with everything else boss mode had going on.
>>
No. 74469 ID: 68ac42

eeyup
>>
No. 74470 ID: 256d52

>>74468
>Even if you do look full size, it's not exactly obvious with everything else boss mode had going on.
I never said I didn't have valid reasons for worrying! :V
>>
No. 74472 ID: 68ac42

Should named it Quasimodo Dragon.
>>
No. 74475 ID: 933f92

>>74465
Interestingly, boss mode looks like an adult Deem.

>Filename isn't d&D
>>
No. 74482 ID: c770a7

>>74468
>Even if you do look full size, it's not exactly obvious with everything else boss mode had going on.

That's one bad mamajamma.
>>
No. 74488 ID: a23afd

>>74475
The suggestions for boss mode went in the direction of making her look mature, so that's to be expected!
>>
No. 74548 ID: 076e51

Now if only we could have little sister Deem and big sister Deem at the SAME TIME...

I'm looking forwards to dungeon planning time. It's long overdue.
>>
No. 74561 ID: 68ac42

So lets get cracking!

I envision a maze of a series of small honeycomb rooms with six doors. We get the aerial view and direct our mooks to hit and run sweeps. The appear, strike, than dissapear behind one of six doors.

Then we can do like pot growers and have hooks dangle from fishing lines at eye level.

Have the classic "staring picture" gimmick where the portrait eyes you around the room. Then allow the adventurers discover the other side of the picture. Tempt them by making noise on the original side. They take a peek into the eyeholes then *shick*, two spikes take the highway via eyesockets to the brain, just like in "The Phantom". Its going to be a bit of a challenge for OP to render that scene in they'd cutesy style, but it gets the job done.

That's not the half of it, I've got a billion more where that came from. Guillotine shrinking necklaces, time delayed armor, gear and loot that bursts into acid a few minutes after equipment. Burrowing spear and arrow tips, boobytrapped minions that tarbaby stick to searching hands then explode while being looted, poisoned door knobs, constant loops of tween idol pop songs blasted over the sound system.

When people call me evil, I correct them: "I'm not a monster, I'm a professional."
>>
No. 74563 ID: a23afd

>>74561
That sounds very unfun. It's the Labyrinth Game, not the Labyrinth Deathtrap.
>>
No. 74565 ID: b5df96

>>74563
...agreed. There's a difference between a dungeon crawl and a horror movie death trap.

Not that there won't be traps. And not that adventures won't be injured or killed. But strait up murdering all who enter isn't the point. It's a ritual- a challenge. One that's supposed to have a win condition, even.

Actually, with the idea of building a sustainable dungeon? One that brings maximum benefit to us and the town's economy, producing valuable loot and materials to be processed and sold, and bringing in trade, tourism, and traveling adventures to play the game? You'd want some wins. Sure, we gain reputation as being tough if we stop all comers, but people stop playing if they think they don't have a chance to win. Only the occasional epic level adventuring party showing up isn't good for business.
>>
No. 74592 ID: c770a7

I third the sentiment. This is more like Crystal Maze, Legend of Zelda, or even the titular Labyrinth than Tomb of Horrors. You can still be Gygaxian and do something like "One of these things is not like the others", but remember, Sesame Street used the same gag.

I do like Honeycomb idea, sounds good if you tweak it a bit. Maybe have big brutes kick them out or 'porters take them back to the beginning if they're caught.

You're clearly imaginative, but bring it down a couple gears. Use gameshow challenges and children's games as the basis for your ideas. Some quick examples:

The classic "ground turns into lava/shark infested pool" game. Self explanatory and necessarily engaging.

Update knock-one-out games like Musical Chairs, Hot Potato, and Duck Duck Goose.

We can also put tracking bugs on the prize money and gear to see the flow of goods, see what establishments are popular allowing the possibility for strategic business partnerships; "White Castle, an Official partner of the Labyrithian Games". Heck, you can have whole teams of adventurers sponsored by different companies or municipalities in competition. They thank you for the tourism and promotion, and you thank them for the contestants and the ad revenue.

You could also see the strengths and weaknesses of each adventurer and for a steep premium create a personalized dungeon specifically as their personal challenge, their foil. Should they succeed, give them and that compliments their skill-set, either further enhancing their play-style or covering their weaknesses. If they prove good enough, maybe we can hire them as guardians, legendary hall of famers now available to test you own skills against.
>>
No. 74594 ID: 4c8520

>>74561
I do think we can use a lot of these ideas in less unltra-vicious ways. Like with the picture thing, fishhooks are kind of too far, but I think it would be fair play to do that sort of thing and have a regular trap (like a pit trap) at the viewing side.

About trap leniency in general, I don't know the specifics but I would guess that since most adventurers don't kill the dungeon heart, the goal of a normal dungeon run is the treasury or something rather than the heart chamber. If this assumption is correct, that would make approaching the heart chamber the abnormal action of an adventurer who means us serious harm, and at that point noting is off-limits.
>>
No. 74600 ID: c770a7

If we are going to do the games to hold the gravity of regional Olympics, we should have a logo. Submissions?

Rooms:

Large space (like field for capture the flag)
Arena
Cafeteria (great side revenue!)

Simple Attribute Challenge STR: Arm wrestle a Golem
SAC DEX: Play slaps with a tentacle monster.
SAC CON: Hold you liquor against a Goblin/Troll/Dwarf
SAC INT:...???
SAC CHA: Convince a guard to lest you pass.

Challenge Idea: Cat & Mouse Maze

Large Monster plays the Cat, adventurers the mouse. They enter the room with a large plane of glass above them. Above the glass is walled maze. There is a little mouse playing piece above that can be moved through the maze with a magnetic handle below. The goal is to get the mouse from one side of the maze to the other. should the Cat capture the mouse, the glass breaks, and the cat falls onto the adventurers. Should they succeed, the mouse scurries into a hole in the wall to the next room, where it will be sitting on a pedestal. If the mouse is opened a valuable item will be found inside.

Challenge 2: Rock Paper Scissors

Play rock paper scissors. Lose and fight either: rock golem, a blade master or constricting blanket of death.
>>
No. 74612 ID: 2f4b71

>Honeycomb Maze
Let's try not to turn our dungeon completely into Takeshi's Castle.
>>
No. 74616 ID: bf54a8
File 137556136372.png - (41.47KB , 1142x878 , challnge map.png )
74616

complex clockwork dungeon idea. each circle is a room, with a challenge in it. complete the challenge and the door forward unlocks, but doesn't open. every 10 minutes the entire assembly rotates. the outer ring moves clockwise 5 spaces, this guarantees all rooms can be entered from the outside. after rotating three times, aka a half hour, if you beat the challenge both doors open and you can leave or enter a second ring room. second ring is a harder challenge and spins one space counter clockwise every half hour. granting a total of 1 hour to beat that whatever. after the second rotation you can enter the third section, which rotates every hour, and after two rotations opens up to the central area. where you claim your prize.

and we can go deeper if you want and have this be a sub gear of an even greater rotating system. can claim the normal level prize or take the stairs and try the ADVANCED course. which made up of several gears of challenge rooms, and ends with a BOSS BATTLE. victory nets you PHAT LEWTS.


weaker parties can do the basic sets and the epic party can move on to the advanced set, fun for all, and challenge appropriate prizes.
>>
No. 74629 ID: c770a7

Man, when can we expect the next story post? I'm getting antsy for action.

Trap doors. I envision a rouge trying to pick a lock. The lock mangles and eats the picks.

So some burly man walks up to it and tries to bull rush it or kick it in. The door swings inwards and and the whole room tilts sideways, and gravity pulls the guy in. One one foot or charging he'd probably fall in.

The only way of avoiding it is to place charges on the door and blow it while you've got your backs to the walls on the side, but those too are hinged and the open inwards, following the door.

Alternatively, you get past one door made to look like the wall to a narrow hallway 5 feet long. You step in, door closes behind you. You approach the door again. The door falls on top of you while a pit opens beneath you. The door closes the top of the pit, sealing you in while another door rises to take it's place.
>>
No. 74630 ID: bf54a8

due no, we want to be HARD but FAIR. no one likes the idea of pure luck deciding their fate.
>>
No. 74646 ID: c770a7
File 137558036421.jpg - (44.15KB , 220x200 , Herbert_Siguenza-1.jpg )
74646

Yeah, you're working in our diner, man.

Tough, but fair.
>>
No. 74674 ID: 24d9e6

Enchantment? ENCHANTMENT!

Hammerai - Kinetic Armor. Absorbs kinetic energy w/ Damage Reduction, which can then be "redistributed" to thugs in sore need of a sound walloping.

Hammerai - Velocihammer

Hammer with the ability to swing with a speed burst. Linkable w/ K. Armor for rejuicing.

QuakerSmote

Like velocihsmmer, but can direct contained mini-earthquakes localized at enemy's position.
>>
No. 74676 ID: 2f4b71

>>74674
>Velocihammer
No need for magic here, just stick a rocket on the back of it.
>>
No. 74683 ID: 4c8520

>>74676
And where do you think we will get a rocket if not enchanting? (Well I guess we could go alchemical, but then you need to reload it.)
>>
No. 74684 ID: 68ac42

I think, in this case its much simpler, safer, more effective and efficient to just use MAGIC. Also give her boots of charge that rejuice from armor.
>>
No. 74697 ID: 68ac42
File 137565632593.jpg - (16.52KB , 400x640 , hammer.jpg )
74697

Velocihammer concept
>>
No. 74700 ID: 2f4b71
File 137565786261.jpg - (940.91KB , 1200x1000 , Graf Eisen.jpg )
74700

Clearly the solution is a magical rockethammer.
>>
No. 74702 ID: 68ac42

Tempting, but fire volatile and unpredictable. We dont want her to burn her face off, or set our pad alight.
>>
No. 74705 ID: 68ac42

Ge the apothecary to raise fast growing plants, because the faster the plants grow the faster the animals grow the faster we can eat them.
>>
No. 74751 ID: 68ac42

Fell Beast Wishlist:

A mount for Moriko. Must kick like a mule and bite like a crocodile.

Jumping Cave Spiders

Swordsspiders (stabby/slicy legs)

Cannonball Armadillos

Carnivorous Tentaclope

stealthy Eye Guy that can scope out adventurers

Anything else I forgot to mention?
>>
No. 74752 ID: 68ac42
File 137574158049.gif - (445.12KB , 800x878 , 6a00d8341c145e53ef0147e0d91838970b-800wi.gif )
74752

Fell Beast Wishlist:

A mount for Moriko. Must kick like a mule and bite like a crocodile.

Jumping Cave Spiders

Swordsspiders (stabby/slicy legs)

Cannonball Armadillos

Carnivorous Tentaclope

stealthy Eye Guy that can scope out adventurers

Anything else I forgot to mention?
>>
No. 74760 ID: c770a7
File 137574856532.jpg - (9.57KB , 212x270 , 5209150_std.jpg )
74760

I propose the institution of Saturday Night Disco.
>>
No. 74780 ID: e3aff6

>>74760
"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world dance the night away."
>>
No. 74839 ID: e1609c
File 137589358328.jpg - (86.69KB , 640x400 , 1350948408240.jpg )
74839

>>74752
Yes, we need a skelecopter swarm.
>>
No. 74844 ID: c23ab0
File 137591095426.jpg - (502.42KB , 1329x1434 , skelecopters.jpg )
74844

>>74839

For context,
>>
No. 75370 ID: 360a3c

Skele... copters. Table that for long-term planning, we might need a pursuit squad and something THAT crazy makes an interesting reserve.

Seriously, we should give Deem a long dress with side leg-slits so she can actually move in it if she has to. Nice boots to keep her from looking like a crazy hippie, an arm-purse for carrying stuff if she needs it. 20th-century classy.
She can pad out her bosom with sewn-in gold maybe, that might even be a good idea.
>>
No. 75386 ID: c770a7

Interesting Concept, but I think mana regen is a function of the bigger red heart, plus we don't want every petty thief in town making a pass for our chest. If it works you have my support... Lets just run that by Ahra first.

On second thought, I disagree. We don't want some conniving earthmage dungeoneer figuring out why a golem is running around with a "heart'o gold", and unless we have an armed guard escort (which is suspiciously noticeable) wearing a rich lady getup makes us a target, regardless of the fact that we can defend ourselves, a stickup draws just as much attention. Maybe its all right for around the house, but it would be weird to dress down for a day out and then be all dressed up and have nowhere to go at home. Maybe we can wear it ceremoniously when the games commence. Sit on our leg throne with a martini like pictured above. Be like Shao Khan and preside over mortal Kombat. "FINISH HIM!"
>>
No. 75387 ID: 06e6ef

Though laughably heavy, we might end up lacing the bodice with lead weave on the outside and gold on the inside. Just make sure it's well, erm, supported.
>>
No. 75388 ID: c770a7

I was thinking something more demure. A ladylike longcoat with a dark, wide brimmed sunhat to keep people from our face. Sideslits are advisable.
>>
No. 75389 ID: c770a7

I was thinking something more demure. A ladylike longcoat or chlamys with a dark, wide brimmed sunhat to keep people from our face. Underneath thr coat would be a black/slate purple stola with some dungeonheart red trim. Sideslits are advisable. A headband or earth themed laurel would be nice too.

Don't anyone dare say she should wear a breastmail bikini.
>>
No. 75391 ID: 06e6ef

Maybe a compromise between Victorian and Greco-Roman costumes. Make a black overcoat/greek poncho/ cape, with gold trim in lacey swirl patterns and a red gem brooch roman/victorian blouse with that classic looking oval gem chocker around the neck, that or a mandarin collar, I've got a thing for those. Maybe make it look a little golemetery to fit in with our new recruit.
>>
No. 75393 ID: 256d52
File 137701221041.png - (10.54KB , 420x420 , disc_business.png )
75393

Seems to be a few things I should take care of.

There's been some spammy posts (some image, some not) both here and in the main thread. It's been getting mostly cleared up by a dark wizardry called moderators but they shouldn't have to do that so could it stop?

I'd prefer the main thread to stay fairly image free, since it helps the updates to stand out.

I should remind people too that you can delete a post if you make a mistake. There's been a lot of duplicate posts.

In the main thread I usually will ignore any suggestions that are not relevant to the current situation so save it for an appropriate moment or bring it up in discussion. Similarly if talking about options is turning into any sort of discussion or debate, best to move it here.
>>
No. 75394 ID: c770a7

Sorry about the doublepost, Arhra, I keep forgetting my edit passwords. I beg your forgiveness, I will repent of my wicked, wicked ways.
>>
No. 75395 ID: 06e6ef

Aye captain. Consider us sternly warned and well advised. I apologize for and on behalf of our lesser contemporaries. We'll try to keep them in line.
>>
No. 75398 ID: 64270f

test
>>
No. 75399 ID: 41690e

>author asks people to stop making off topic posts and discussion in the quest thread
>people start making posts discussing this in the quest thread
...is it really necessary to explain the problem here?

This isn't alien concept or special rule-set you should feel the need to alert others of, anyways. This is basic quest etiquette he's having to instruct you on, and that you're failing, here.
>>
No. 75400 ID: 01531c

On the topic of clothing, I think Deem should consider on commissioning the smith to make some armor, and offer your golem forces to provide assistance in procuring the supplies, be it running to the port city and back, or digging them out, or simply holding stuff still while she hammers it.

Its more concrete way to keep her around.
>>
No. 75401 ID: 64270f

>>75400

I think the link is useful. I hardly ever go to discussion threads, so if something is going on there its nice to be informed about it. I think some other guys would appreciate it too.

Otherwise, I agree with you.
>>
No. 75420 ID: 48ab74

>>75399
Those who use the main thread instead of this one are most likely not noticing post in this thread. Because they are not here but only use the main thread, you see? One post over there linking this thread is therefore quite helpful, imho. Any more than that should be pruned, of course.
>>
No. 75423 ID: 64270f

Well, back to clothing. I think the Chlamys is too military oriented, probably more suitable for our soon to be Hammerai. I think a achiton would be more appropriate.
>>
No. 75424 ID: 256d52

>>75420
Based on what I was seeing, it seemed just posting here would be sufficient. Had I thought otherwise, I would have put a mention in the main thread too.
>>
No. 75425 ID: 4652c9

I think the visual design of the characters is one of the strongest parts of this quest, and playing dressup with deem is not necessary and would basically dilute it. That's the problem I have with most of the dressup style things on this site, and this one doesn't even have a paper doll.
Did Arhra even want us to bother with clothes or did people just start it out of nowhere?

titty-mmm-bop-bop-tittays
>>
No. 75426 ID: 41690e

>>75425
I would second this, and yes, it just started out of nowhere.

Honestly, clothing Deem would first require her to acknowledge that there is something wrong with how she's currently presenting herself, and I don't easily see her reaching that conclusion. :V
>>
No. 75427 ID: bf54a8

i also agree. she MAY agree to a disguise if she goes anywhere that sentient golems would be considered a bad thing. or where a dungeon heart would do more then make a golem mage jizz in their pants.

but clothes just for clothes sake? not happening.
>>
No. 75429 ID: 9ddf68

I think the clothing thing started when someone suggested we cover her dungeon heart up with something so if we come across anyone from that dungeon guild they wouldn't be able to point us out as a dungeon. (I'm to lazy to look for the thread)
>>
No. 75431 ID: 64270f

Well, Arhra did give us the option early on.

>>518509
> "There's a few shops along the main street." he chuckles again. "Lianna there can set you up if you'd be needing new clothes or anything."
>>
No. 75432 ID: 64270f

>Entymologically

describing or pertaining to the evolution or origins of insect related words.
>>
No. 75468 ID: 64270f

>>75429

That can be found here:
>>534953

---
>>75425 She gave us the option, but we don't have to wear clothes all the time--just when we are in danger of being recognized by dungeoneers, harrowers and non-friendlies.
>>
No. 75486 ID: 64270f

Properties of materials and rare earths. What do we want to see? I want reverse states of matter, with a boiling point below its condensing point etc.

Also, repeating what some guy said: materials, from greatest to least earthpulse conductive. Also, any weaknesses.
>>
No. 75489 ID: bf54a8

willing to bet gold is the best due to a combination of availability/conductivity. like there are more conductive materials but they are MUCH rarer. thing to enhance our conduction could be to leave an empty gap going right down the middle of all hallways an stuff. all leading to the heart. and eventually we fill in the gap by pouring gold into it as we get it, creating a massive conductive web.
>>
No. 75508 ID: 68ac42

Or easy pickings for looters, and a money trail to our most vulnerable and vital component. I'm not sure why we'd need a network either, seeing as how our Dungeonheart is the only thing we posses that can produce and store mana with gold. To spread gold away from us would lessen its effects. Maybe it might increase range circulation, but not production.
>>
No. 75520 ID: 68ac42

So, how are we going to do public relations with the nearby municipalities?

also, is Izakkik going to stay in town? If not, how can we keep her here long enough to get the resources to provide for her?

Add to special materials mana "sponge" material, to soak up dripping mana. Also, upgrade body with better materials, Deem ought to be made of sterner stuff. I wonder if her aesthetic formations would change if she were made of different materials...
>>
No. 75526 ID: bf54a8

>>75508
it's SOLID gold, would need to get tools, and while they are working we can have a monster jump out and kill them. just put a sign that says "intentionally damaging the dungeon will be met with harsh punishment." out front. dungeons are a business, and adventurers are the customers. basically we need to be semi-osha. no un-dodge-able instant death traps. if they die then they failed. if they succeed then they get to take a treasure. like a totally badass sword made by Hin and enchanted by us. and then they leave. if they try to attack the heart itself we are allowed to blow them up. so a trail leading to the heart isn't that big a deal.
>>
No. 75535 ID: 68ac42

That's hinged on a lot of conditions for minimal benefits, if any. Also a few problems:

Earthmages can just pop it out of there, or even animate it to walk away with them. And gold is REALLY soft, it takes a lot less effort than you think to chip it off.

If it's worth it, its worth it, but so far it's an aesthetic peice, miles of cast gold is too expensive for our fluff budget. I think our people in finance, had we any, would agree.

And what about Harrowers. "Ohai fellas, I know you spend years specifically training in ways to dismantle me, let me just paint you a yellow brick road straight to my heart so we can cut the foreplay."
>>
No. 75540 ID: bf54a8

what? i said WEB. webs do not involve one straight line. it would go through EVERY hallway and door. there is no way to follow it since it goes every direction.
>>
No. 75551 ID: 68ac42

"all the hallways and stuff" doesn't clarify "going right down the middle" and "all leading to the heart". Thr image I got was a spiderweb, with major strands traveling in straight lines converging at the center while peripheral strands wrap around it linking the major lines. You can differentiate between straight lines and lines that bend at an angle every time it intersects another.

"it would go through EVERY hallway and door. there is no way to follow it since it goes every direction."

That futher emphasizes the cost problem.
Look, I'm not here to purposelessly antagonize you. I just sounds like there are quite a few genuine concerns to address, like does it do anything.
>>
No. 75553 ID: bf54a8

dude, everything in here is theoretical. i am making shit up as 'what if?' ideas. you know, brainstorming? it really cuts into the mood with you basically calling my ideas dumb listing problems, but not listing anything helpful. like what if it is IS a great way to get energy?
>>
No. 75554 ID: 41690e

>>75553
Dude, don't take it personally. Pointing out possible flaws is a part of brainstorming.
>>
No. 75556 ID: dd5faa

Like I said Jacob, my job isn't to be you're enemy. Hey if it works, great! Take a few precautions, pour the line underground and have at it. If your idea gets past quality control jerks like me its probably more than just sound. As it stands though, I don't see how spreading our gold around does anymore good than keeping it in one place. Something for R&D to toy with for a long time before implementing something on that scale.
>>
No. 75560 ID: 68ac42

My ideas are open for critique too, ya know.

>>74561
>>74629
>>74684
>>74702
>>74697
>>74705
>>74760
>>74752

...and...
>>74592
>>75386
>>74600
>>74629
>>74674
>>72386
>>75388
>>75520
>>75486
>>75468
>>
No. 75599 ID: 256d52
File 137753444464.png - (19.65KB , 600x500 , dungeons_101.png )
75599

There's been a lot of speculation and questions about dungeon design. It's a bit early, but I guess a preview can't hurt!

Firstly, a treasury is more like lungs than the conducting circuits(?) you're talking about. There's not much point to spreading gold all over the place. The shape of the dungeon directs the earth pulse into the treasury - treasuries, for a sensibly designed dungeon - and the gold there gathers the earth pulse into usable mana. That's then stored in the Dungeon Heart. The Dungeon Heart is also the core of the spell channels which circulate mana through the dungeon to power things like golems, traps, guardian spells, and amenities like lights and running water.

I say gold, but noble metals and crystals will also draw the earth pulse. Gold has the best balance of availability and conductivity. The ideal situation is a lot of bulk material seeded with more conductive substances such as gemstones. As to the magical metals, they are usually better used for crafting once enough is stockpiled and a skilled enough smith is available. The most common magical metals can be found naturally, but it is also possible to create them with a skilled alchemist.

Orichalcum, like the sword I found, is made with mountain copper. The raw copper ore has to be alloyed to make bronze for it to be very useful. Mythril is true-silver, it's most notable quality is it's strong but extremely light. Adamantium is fond in platinum sometimes. It's virtually indestructible. Finally, gold can be made into chrysadamant, but it's still quite heavy so it's not as commonly used.

The other use for these materials veers into the second big source of mana: adventurers! Intrusion, conflict and competition stirs up the earth pulse, allowing vastly more mana to be gathered. This has to be done in earnest, there needs to be something at stake for everyone involved. A dungeon should be designed to challenge and stir the soul to greatness. Adventurers are putting themselves in the way of danger for a chance at glory and wealth.

Treasure chests provide a focus for such ambitions, so a quality treasure in one can generate quantities of mana much greater than the materials expended in creating it. Equipping a dungeon's elite guardians with a prize enchanted weapon is also popular, since it tends to make them much more formidable.

Lastly, something important you should know about is Sealing Designations. The part of a dungeon that adventurers can access isn't actually the full extent of the dungeon!
The purpose of this is to limit the damage they can inflict. This usually includes the primary treasury, store rooms, workshops, and as much of the living quarters and communal spaces as can be arranged. I said more than one treasury is sensible earlier because it's impossible to put all the gold behind Sealing Designations.

In my time, Dungeon Hearts weren't placed behind a Sealing Designation - the Heart Chamber is a great place to use for the last guardian, but I suppose things might have changed?

A weaker version of a Sealing Designation is used to funnel adventurers. Doors might be locked until a condition is met. Things like solving puzzles, defeating a certain dungeon guardian, or even just needing a key. It's very useful for stalling the invaders while everyone's still getting into position, and buying time to alter the inner sections of the dungeon to counter them better.
>>
No. 75604 ID: 68ac42

I like the idea of a revolving dungeon, but to suit our needs, not and random.

We'd use it to exploit a specific weakness or quality of the adventurers.
>>
No. 75606 ID: 96c896

>>75599
Knowing all this, I think our best bet is a dungeon with multiple paths, each with a theme to make them more dangerous for different types of adventurer groups. A party without a cleric could be assaulted by a path laden with poisonous gas and toxic swamps. A party without a thief would have trouble with traps being all over the place. A party without a combat focus could be sent to a gauntlet of creatures amongst difficult terrain. Only needing to have one path active at a time would reduce upkeep
>>
No. 75612 ID: 9ddf68

I also had some ideas for the sealed part of the dungeon. I think (since we're going to build this thing in the mountains) that the upper part of the mountain we should use as the living quarter/workshops part while having the actually dungeon that the adventurous will use going deeper into the earth. The reason I have for this is we could hollow out a part of the upper part of the mountain to expose it to the outside world and use it to grow things (like alchemy ingredients if we ever get an alchemist) and maybe some food for our 'workers'.
>>
No. 75613 ID: 68ac42

The word you're looking for is apothecary. Alchemists are more like chemists than botanists.

I suggest we should be an escape Labyrinth as opposed to a explore Labyrinth. Make getting in the easy part and getting out their primary concern (easy pickings, considering they are heavy laden with treasure.)

On the topic of respawning pools. Can we respawn our enemies should we choose? We can use them for practice and to keep our e-pulse up during downtime, among various other conceivable uses.
>>
No. 75616 ID: bf54a8

>>75613
how would calling back an enemy help? said it needs to be ERNEST. the person needs to truly be trying, if the are thinking "it's just practice" then it doesn't help.
>>
No. 75619 ID: 68ac42
File 137756332395.jpg - (4.19KB , 142x80 , images.jpg )
75619

This is ERNEST. I believe you were trying to say EARNEST.

And tell me, who is going to be more earnest, a guy whose crawling for gold or a guy who is trying desperately to escape dying a thousand times over again?

>>75599
Deem, do you consider rhenium & mercury in you list of noble metals?
>>
No. 75624 ID: bf54a8

and do you think anyone other then the alienist would wont feel bad about rezzing and killing a guy over and over? that is "fuck this i'm out" tier bad shit.
>>
No. 75629 ID: 68ac42

> dude, everything in here is theoretical. i am making shit up as 'what if?' ideas. you know, brainstorming?

I would won't prefer you to practice what you preach if you would won't the same courtesy.
>>
No. 75631 ID: 96c896

>>75629
If you can't take people rejecting your ideas, don't present them.

Also, I agree with him. Trapping someone in the dungeon like that for the express purpose of killing them over and over would be needlessly cruel.
>>
No. 75639 ID: 68ac42

>>75553
Again, his words, not mine.

>>75631
As is turkey farming. I used a dramatized example to get a point across; people in prison won't fake a break out. Sure, full-fledged thunderdome-style Mortal Kombat is an unpretty option on a very pretty table, but it's also an exaggeration for contrast. Gladiator fights are reliable source of pulse if the brownstuff hits the spinning blades. Besides, there are plenty of other utilities rezzed enemies can offer.
>>
No. 75640 ID: 41690e

I have to say, Rezzing enemies and putting them to work for any purpose seems contrary to the spirit of the game. We're building a contest here, that's supposed to attract adventures to test themselves. Some will succeed, some will fall. Enslaving failed challengers seems in poor taste.

(If we even can. Deem said victorious heros could have fallen allies restored to them- not that we could revive anyone who dies in the dungeon when we feel like it).
>>
No. 75641 ID: 68ac42

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/514046.html
>>514060
> I will be able to resurrect them once I can make a respawning pool.

We have golems for slave work. These guys are spartacussing their way out of the pit they dug themselves in. If they can contest their way in, they can sure as hell contest their way out.

All it is is a two way toll. If you don't want it to be that profitable you can always include treasure a perk to successful contestants on their way out.

If no one actually dies because of our involvement, their families and drinking buddies have less to whine about (and to seek revenge for.)
>>
No. 75652 ID: bf54a8

>>75641
they died, that means they COULDN'T contest their way in.
>>
No. 75653 ID: 96c896

>>75639
What? Oh, your >s are getting fucked up.

Also I think you MIGHT be a sociopath.
>>
No. 75656 ID: 68ac42

Funny you should mention sociopathy. Contrary to common perception, sociopathy (officially known Anti-social Personality Disorder) is not a one size fits all mental condition. Like autism, its more of a spectrum. About 1%-3% of the worlds population are sociopaths. It is a very small percent of these individuals are homicidal, or even violent. Historically, some of the worlds most successful people, even the most generous, have been recorded or suspected cases of psychopathy/sociopathy.

So, umm... Thank you, I suppose.
>>
No. 75659 ID: 68ac42

You two do know that I used lethality as an extreme case to demonstrate a point because the "ernestness" of the contestants was questioned, I don't plan to kill anyone unless absolutely necessary in self defense.

Also, they'd only have to fight out as far as they got it, so if they got that far and failed, they only have that far get out again.

I suppose it just goes to prove the old adage:

Never drop an Ace when a Deuce will do.
>>
No. 75661 ID: 91c1b3

>>75656
You're not making a great case for yourself about the sociopath thing. From a plan perspective I kinda have to veto your respawn farming idea. (our allies wouldn't stand for it, it would give us a bad reputation as a dungeon, and I frankly just find it a bit distasteful) The escape labrynth idea may be a good one. We do the team testing after the obvious timer starts and the contestants would be less likely to notice/question the funneling into rooms specialized against them and would break up team dynamics in the process. The bad part though would be that there would be no good spot to place a boss.
>>
No. 75662 ID: 68ac42

I suppose Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steve Jobs and Plato were just the lucky ones. Two knew how to deal with people, and one knew how to market a product.
>>
No. 75669 ID: c770a7

You guys, I'm falling asleep here. Between the grade school name calling and the sociopathy awareness presentation I'm bored beyond tears. Lets get back on topic before someone pins a blood-red ribbon to their lapel.

Back to hammer design, I suggest we have hooks come down from the ends of the hammer so Hammerai can rip shields to get at their center.
>>
No. 75677 ID: 91c1b3

>>75669
Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of a hammer as a weapon though? It's meant as a blunt force instrument which transfers all of its energy past armor instead of breaking through the armor itself; also if we start adding tearing to the weapon it might make it unusable for the hammerai style. According to the short description for the char, she wants to prove that her fighting style is strong, so maybe we should hold off on designing hammers until we can get her opinion.

>>75662
>>75670
[Guys, cool it and get back to the quest discussion.]
>>
No. 75678 ID: 256d52
File 137768287050.png - (8.23KB , 420x420 , it_keeps_happening.png )
75678

what is this i dont even
>>
No. 75680 ID: 74098c

For the benefit of what appear to be the younger members of our audience, let me say this:

If you think the other guy's a jerk and don't like what he's saying fight him by NOT participating in his flame war. We're all getting pretty sick of this, and since this probably isn't your first time visiting the zoo you're either blind or intentionally ignoring the sign at the entrance which reads:

"DONT FEED THE TROLLS"

Everyone who pulls shit like this ends up dragging everyone agreeing with or spatting with him under the wrath of the Mods. Something along the lines of the cause-and-effect comcast commericals:

Don't incur the wrath of the Mods > Switch to Pacifism today.
>>
No. 75685 ID: c770a7

>>75677

Ha ha ha. No, no, my friend; you misunderstand me.

These hooks not for made for penetrating, but for pulling. They extend downwards, parallel to the shaft, from the two faces of the hammer.

The purpose of these is to curl around the edge of the opponent's hammer and using proper leverage pry it away from it's defensive position, opening him for a blow to his core.

This maneuver can also be used on weapons, although it requires more careful maneuvering to engage the weapon by twisting it for multiple points of contact and to avoid injury to self.

http://filmswords.com/images/frazetta/frazetta-death-dealer-axe-1.jpg

above is an example of this feature on an axe. Notice the spike curved downward is cannot properly strike a person as a warpick would.
>>
No. 75689 ID: 68ac42

Edge of the opponent's shield, you mean.
>>
No. 75690 ID: 91c1b3

>>75685
Hmm, there's a good chance that will work. It wouldn't change up the style too much but would make it a fair bit more effective. If the Hammerai says it's cool then I say go for it.
>>
No. 75725 ID: 933f92

>>75678
Slow updates + an active fanbase = silly shit

Don't worry, it isn't your fault.
>>
No. 75726 ID: 68ac42

We should ask her which weapons she is proficient with and which weapons she is willing to use. We understand she is working on a specific fighting style, but if she should ever be without her hammer...

Also, she ought to have side-arms. Maybe smaller hand sized warmallets, throwable and enchanted retrievable like mjolnir. Heck, we can make one in Charmanders image and call IT slug. Blunt-nosed, and should you need a pick instead, his mouth opens and a spike pops out.
>>
No. 75735 ID: f29090
File 137788015327.png - (212.59KB , 640x480 , cosoboy.png )
75735

Hey. Cut it out.

This thread is for discussing the quest. If you want to have a BDA, you know where to go.

Now then. Wanna grab a burger?
>>
No. 75738 ID: 68ac42

Wassa BDA?
>>
No. 75739 ID: ce5271

>>75738
Big Dumb Argument. As in the second thread on General discussion right now. You can't miss it.
>>
No. 75766 ID: 68ac42

is that a heart frag on a mook golem? Does that mean we're going to have little sister Deem?
>>
No. 75773 ID: bf54a8

>>75766
no, they all have red eyes.
>>
No. 75776 ID: 68ac42

so that thing in its CHEST is its EYE?
>>
No. 75779 ID: 96c896

>>75776
What thing in its chest?
>>
No. 75780 ID: 68ac42

First golem on the left, right below the collar.
>>
No. 75781 ID: b32a14

>>75780
Oh, you mean in this image? >>72356

I'm pretty sure that's just a creative placement of an eye for aesthetic reasons. Not an additional core fragment.
>>
No. 75782 ID: 68ac42

I wonder, can you loop together two dungeonhearts? Maybe we can slave a zombiedungeonheart to our mana system.
>>
No. 75794 ID: 96c896

>>75781
Could even be for functional reasons, what with the "hair" being in the way of where his eyes would normally be.
>>
No. 75799 ID: 74098c

Well, lets see if we can FIND other dungeonhearts first. Maybe develop some sort of dreamsense? If we get a live one I propose we name him Doom or Damn, and if a girl we name her Dear.
>>
No. 75800 ID: 74098c

Well, lets see if we can FIND other dungeonhearts first. Maybe develop some sort of dreamsense? If we get a live one I propose we name him Doom or Damn, and if a girl we name her Dear or Doll.
>>
No. 75801 ID: 68ac42

Agreed, but watch your double posts, mister.
>>
No. 75803 ID: 74098c

I was using a friends network, and my computer cant recall the edit password. <:-(
>>
No. 75820 ID: 68ac42

GIRLS- Dame, Dawe, Dawn, Dary, Demi, Debi, Dori, Dott, Didi, Dizi, Dona, Dana, Dora
BOYS- Dare, Dorm, Dale, Dent, Data, Dude, Dunn, Daze, Daad, Dart, Dagr, Digg, Dean, Duke, Dirk, Dick, Dill, Doni, Dino, Dapr, Domo, Dred, Darl, Dawg, DJay, Dave, Daka, Dipr, Dtri, Dash,
Dawc
NEUTRAL- Deco, Dazl, Ding, Dose, Doze, Duck, Disc

YOU- Derp, Dope, Dump, Dush, Dork, Ditz, Dolt
>>
No. 75821 ID: 256d52
File 137813333323.png - (9.27KB , 300x500 , faceless_mooks.png )
75821

>>75781
Ayup. I wanted to work a crystal in on all of the golems to link them back to Deem and I was experimenting with hiding parts of the face to help show they're generic mass produced golems.

I did think this one might be confused with a heart fragment though.
>>
No. 75823 ID: 68ac42

Dove. I take it you silence on the Two hearts one Dungeon is not particularly significant?
>>
No. 75824 ID: 256d52

>>75823
Can a circle have two centers?
>>
No. 75825 ID: 240cbe

>>75824
Only if they overlap.
>>
No. 75826 ID: 68ac42

Deft. In three dimensions, yes. Neighbors, then?
>>
No. 75829 ID: 888df6

>>75821
I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. No disadvantages to it jump to mind and it is a really nice design.

In fact, if anything, it would serve to mask Deem's unusual chest-gem situation as simply a bit of stylistic flair.
>>
No. 75830 ID: 96c896

>>75824
An oval can be considered to have two centers...
>>
No. 75831 ID: d6f26b

>>75830
No, it cannot. Those are foci.
>>
No. 75832 ID: 74098c

What program do you use to draw, friend?
>>
No. 75840 ID: 68ac42

Blacksmith's motto:
Vir optimus, ut metalli, est omnino invariabilis

Alienist's motto:
Sidera observant, quia videntium te

Hammerai's motto:
Suus tempore malleum
>>
No. 75844 ID: 761017

Google Translate Says:
Blacksmith's motto:
best man, as the metal, is entirely invariable
Alienist's motto:
watch the stars for watching
Hammerai's motto:
It's time to hammer
>>
No. 75867 ID: 68ac42
File 137821903725.gif - (609.49KB , 500x300 , tumblr_mdugpouO6q1qko769o1_500.gif )
75867

24 hours since Deem's last post;
Already watching "Labyrinth" on loop.

(It's onleeey Forever)
-
Odd, when I tried google translate it was a much more coherent;

Blacksmith's motto:
(the) best man, as metal, is entirely invariable

Alienist's motto:
watch the stars for (they are) watching(you)

Hammerai's motto:
It's time to hammer (close enough for jazz)

It seems your translation struggles with pronouns and present progressives.
>>
No. 75872 ID: ca1c58

>>75867
I think the grammar is fucked up on the alienst's motto.

the stars of watching are watching you because.

Stars is the nominative noun, so it's the subject. "watching" is plural so it's the verb and it's present and active. The only accusative is tu (you) which is singular. the genitive is plural so it agrees with "stars," not "you." genitive has to belong to a noun. You don't translate "because of watching you" because tu is the direct object, and there's not a proper participial phrase that should be set off by quia.
>>
No. 75875 ID: ca1c58

>>75840
The last one is not even close to that.

"His [no noun in the proper case] [no verb] the hammer from time."

Suus is "his," a reflexive possessive noun in the nominative. "malus" is the noun "hammer" in the accusitive, which is the direct object, although there is no verb for it to be the direct object of. "Tempore" is the noun form of "time, and is in the ablative case, which means "away from."
>>
No. 75876 ID: 74098c

Talk to the google because the everyone else is too busy TL;DR
>>
No. 75878 ID: 801634

Okay, smart guy. You've shown your vocabulary is about eight inches longer than everyone else's--Fix it.
>>
No. 75880 ID: c770a7

Guys, what did we just finish discussing? If Arhra has to make another post about this the golem is going to facepalm straight through his face.

>>75875
Don't listen to them, you're the one that's actually addressing a problem.
>>
No. 75882 ID: ca1c58

>>75878
>>75880
I didn't even touch the first one. I just saw latin on the front page. I don't even know what these are or what they're supposed to be saying.
>>
No. 75883 ID: 68ac42

I thought suus worked for neuter pronouns too.
>>
No. 75884 ID: ca1c58

>>75883
It does, but it's a reflexive pronoun, not a contraction of "it is."
>>
No. 75887 ID: 68ac42

Guys, any theories about Deems origins? What about that riveted Celestiuna seal on the heart?

Are we unwitting participants in the order of Sun Myung Moon?
>>
No. 75901 ID: c770a7

Point, but way too open ended as is. It might be worth returning to the original dungeon to pone around, find unlooted ítems and gather some much needed context. Could also hit the forest on the way back.
>>
No. 75924 ID: bc8d67

Arhra, >>/quest/539412 in the latest update appears to be missing the "<CANDIDATE> HAS BEEN RECRUITED!" status message we've gotten before. Is this a mistake?
>>
No. 75932 ID: 256d52
File 137838309320.png - (22.30KB , 600x480 , old_inkscapes.png )
75932

>>75829
>I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. No disadvantages to it jump to mind and it is a really nice design.
>In fact, if anything, it would serve to mask Deem's unusual chest-gem situation as simply a bit of stylistic flair.
That's a good point actually. I'll have to remember it.

>>75832
>What program do you use to draw, friend?
I use Inkscape, which is a vector graphics program.

Here's an older drawing of mine and a blank doll for comparison.

Trying to hide the joins can be a little painful though, and you can't do variable stroke thickness, so for Dungeoneer I thought I'd try just using fills. I've been really happy with it so far.

>>75924
>Arhra, >>/quest/539412 in the latest update appears to be missing the "<CANDIDATE> HAS BEEN RECRUITED!" status message we've gotten before. Is this a mistake?
Oops!
>>
No. 75934 ID: 07e3a8

>>75924
Exposure to alien energies is messing with our UI. The messages prompt sees to have been stalled.

Don't worry, I'm sure the backlog of messages in the queue will display themselves once we're out of his immediate area of influence. :V
>>
No. 75951 ID: c770a7

Well, seeing as how a proper dungeon functions with what can most easily be described as a metabolism, I think it might be beneficial to expand the metaphor.
>>
No. 75978 ID: 68ac42

You know what we need? Bees. Lots and lots of bees. They can serve as watchdogs, couriers and as a source for imperishable sweets.

It could go three ways, I imagine. A hand full of big beefy bees, an absolute swarm of micoscopic bees like the ones used as pesticide in brazil, or highly specialized bees that nat 100 their specific task.
>>
No. 76100 ID: 74098c

>>75978

Yeah, I see what your saying. I say go for specialization, and have one specialize in being general and interchangeable.

Also, have them harvest Gold as well as Honey. Just thing; GOLEN COMBS IN EVERY BITE.

That would work great in a Vault-type Dungeon, if we want to run a section like a bank. Maybe we can run it out of this Seaside town. Donate it to the Golemeters and have them play our bank.
>>
No. 76243 ID: 888df6

Deem's dungeon should have a giftshop now that she's discovering the wonders of commerce. Charging hilarious amounts for resurrection services is also an option.
>>
No. 76262 ID: 26e322

>>76243
Definitely we need to have a shop located outside of the dungeon selling adventurers potions and weapons and stuff. More gold for the pile.
>>
No. 76265 ID: 07e3a8

>>76262
I still think the best way around that is to use the town outside the dungeon for that.

Think about it- if we invest in (or own) businesses in town, we still make a return on the commerce. But our dungeon bringing trade to town (both in the form of selling things to adventures, and the hospitality / service industry that spring up around tourist attractions) nets us a lot of goodwill, and further influence in town. That's valuable, I think.

Completely subvert the 'evil dungeon over yonder' mechanic. We're not a menace, we're good for business, a partner! Town and Dungeon both making a living off adventures passing through. Town and Adventures make a living off the resources harvest from and around the dungeon. (Well, the successful adventures, anyways. The less successful adventures lose their shirts and head home).

Best part is if the town is on our side, it'll be in their best interest to side with us against things like the Dungeon Guild or the Harrowers. Anything messing with their local dungeon is bad for business, you see?
>>
No. 76270 ID: 26e322

>>76265
I see what you are saying, but I mean specifically taking gold that we can then put in the dungeon to contribute to mana regeneration. Let the town have the main shopping, we'll just have the convenience store.

This is further down the line, anyway.
>>
No. 76273 ID: 68ac42

>>76265
Thats why we need vaults IN house though, to keep monster production outside low, while still producing them within.
>>
No. 76276 ID: 07e3a8

>>76270
If we're involved in business in the town, we can take our share of the profits as gold and/or gems and stack them in our vaults. So long as the town is bringing in outside income from traveling adventures and selling rare monster parts to the outside world, our slow taking pieces of gold out of circulation is sustainable.

...up until we've actually taken enough gold out of circulation to significantly affect the scarcity of what's left. But I expect that will take a long time. And if it ever does happen, it can be circumvented by backing an alternate currency. (Let the humans trade strips of paper or enchanted credit cards or whatever, while we sit on our pile of mana generating gold).

>>76273
Yes, we'll have vaults in-house to power the dungeon heart, and the main dungeon / heart / vaults should be situated far enough outside of town that the town is well outside the area of monster spawn.

Putting the dungeon in the mountains may have the advantage of confining the monsters somewhat anyways- things that spawn there may not be inclined to relocate to another biome.
>>
No. 76295 ID: bf54a8

guys, common notion is already that dungeons aren't evil. people know about the dungeoneer's guild.
>>
No. 76296 ID: 26e322

>>76273
Well of course. All the real profits go inside, only keep enough for change in the shop.
>>
No. 76307 ID: 68ac42

>>76295
tell that to the Harrowers. I'm sure there's a divided public opinion, and wandering monsters certainly dont help PR.
>>
No. 76358 ID: dbfafd

logo design? Logo design.
>>
No. 76422 ID: e1609c

>>76358
Bam.
(Pretend I know how colors work)
>>
No. 76423 ID: e1609c
File 138014978673.png - (16.59KB , 512x512 , logo.png )
76423

>>76422
Fuck I forgot to include the file
>>
No. 76425 ID: 7bbaae

>>76423
I don't think that really counts as a logo for a dungeon. I think we'd want more of a sigil or symbol.
>>
No. 76452 ID: 34b2f2

So I notice there's some interesting ideas in the quest thread but that they aren't in here! Something about telescopic surveyor golem glass-blowers or something? I'm mangling it but that's because I need details, damnit.

Details I can discuss. In this here discussion thread. If the suggest who mentioned that idea sees this, let's talk.

I'm also curious how wearing the mimic is supposed to work. Could be cool.
>>
No. 76472 ID: e1609c

>>76425
it originally was one then I got a bit carried away
it was initially just the center bit, but it sucks anyways so I was thinking we could make our psuedodragon friend into the sign thing, pub-style, somethin like that?
>>
No. 76506 ID: c770a7

Hey guys, yeah Mod, I was thinking about a personal insignia, my idea is to have the heart gem in the middle of of a triangle that represents what is to be Mt. Deem while mounted on either side by Quasimodos as supporters, also emulating the eye of providence--or some sort of monogram with D E E M, and form it into some sort of building. I do like the Dragon's Head pub idea, though.

I know some guy tried and horribly mangled his latin while attempting to provide mottos, But I think his "watch the stars" and "invariable metal" ideas were pretty solid. Any others?

Also, we ought to have a proper estate name for our lair.

Sadly, I've been overworked this week and am about to head over to my sister's move out west. Expect everything sometime this evening.
>>
No. 76524 ID: 34b2f2

Personally I'd want to hold off on designing logos until we've actually got the dungeon set up or at least actually see where we're going to put it. I'm wary of including anything to do with our Heart in the design, I wouldn't want any adventurers to get the idea that it's the "goal" of the dungeon.

Likewise, I wouldn't want to associate Deem and her golem body too strongly with the dungeon itself. Yes, she is the dungeon, but it's better that others don't know that.

I think archivemod is on the right track. It's a dungeon, it's in a mountain. Clear, straightforward, practical for all parties involved.

>>76506
As a somewhat more personal aside, and I'm not trying to step on any toes here, I know how annoying younger brothers can be (I am one) but if you could chastise them in real life instead of adding more unproductive posts to the questthread, it'd be ideal.
>>
No. 76554 ID: c770a7

>>76452

Clearly I meant chest on head, not on foot.

Classic Gygaxian mimics (and their lesser cousins, MIMICS IN SPACE) are able to change their form, shape, color and consistency, the only thing they can't change is their texture, which means a mighty-morphin makeover whenever we need it. Now if Deem had the Divequest mimic, no such luck, the best we can do is modify our body to wear the chest on our back like a knapsack.


>>76524

Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you, but my brother is (figuratively) deafer than a haddock, it was the only real way to get his attention--otherwise he'd just close his eyes and pretend I wasn't there.
>>
No. 76567 ID: 34b2f2

>>76554
Ah. Neat idea, but obviously heavily dependent on in-setting details which have not yet acquired and I'd frankly consider unlikely. I think we should probably leave the mimic in the dungeon if we get it in any case, Deem the golem gets less out of it than Deem the dungeon and it could be assailed even when the golem body is out and about.

Hmm. Having awareness of two places at once is a valuable asset that I expect will come in handy in the future. We should keep it in mind.
>>
No. 76878 ID: c3f739

Have you been busy Arhra? Or has the Dear Madeem forgotten us?
>>
No. 76895 ID: 256d52

>>76878
Soon.
>>
No. 76945 ID: 256d52
File 138236664394.png - (9.95KB , 320x450 , slime_princess.png )
76945

It's a royal jelly when it's a larva, becomes a slime princess after it grows a little and eventually turns into a slime queen when it gets strong enough?

Also slimes are budded off out of the little nodule on the crown.
>>
No. 76946 ID: 393e01

soo...
we have 1 Monster Master, as well as 3 Mercenaries, along with Deem, the Dungeon heart.
Anyone have any ideas on how the order of the dungeon should go then?
Personally, here's what I'm thinking:
Hammerai is the first 'boss'/ in the first room of the dungeon proper-she wants to prove the worth of her style/do lots of fighting, and this will fit in with that. To make sure she's not outnumbered, maybe place a few high-quality golems that mimic her style there in there with her, to give the sense of 'challanging the Hammerai Dojo'.
After that, I think we should probably have a hallway full of the Blacksmith's traps, and then a second room with the Stargazer, with some slimes to aid him in his fight. After that, a third room with golem soldiers and Charles, before the final battle with Deem herself, with a chest that comes up with the appropriate level of prizes..
As for puzzles...
One thing I thought of is a sort of puzzle fight, with the hammerai- here, you have a few shiftable blocks, and switches on the ground. Both the hero or the Hammerai can smack them around onto the switches and thus activate traps-the idea being to catch your opponent in a trap before the same is done to you.
The StarGazer, could have a room designed to resemble a night sky, from the floor, to the walls, while actually being a maze to navigate through, comeplete with either pre-set magical traps, or perhaps, golems that act as scrying sensor-things for him to see and move around in the maze with, and when he finds a hero he gets to start casting away!
Gonna need a bit to think of more thematic stuff for Blacksmith, but those are my -off the cuff- ideas, so to speak, without a good sense of what each character's exact capabilities are.
>>
No. 76961 ID: 097017

Well, Zaealix, I'm glad you're on the ball. I admit I don't like to jump into things quite so quickly, I prefer a more methodical, systematic approach to all my designs. It usually involves a lot of self directed questions, measurements, research and studies, mnemonic acronyms and lots and lots of binary flowcharts.

I usually start all my designs with this first step, an acronym that investigates my (rather our) motives and intentions and the most simple, direct manner of achieving our desired results. You've clearly familiar with it in practice since you listed our assets and then stated to coordinate them, but I'll include it here for the benefit of others. It goes a little like this:

WHU are you?


What do you want?

what do Have?

how can you use what you Have to get what you Want?


After some rumination and pondering I move onto the next stage, the SWOT analysis.

Strengths (Assets)
Weaknesses (Liabilities)
Opportunities
Threats

The third stage is the PEST analysis, which goes into less localized entities and variables that describe the extended environment and further dissect our situation therein.

PEST (Political, Economic, Socio-cultural, Technological)

Political landscape
(who are the players in this game, and what are the rules? groups, affiliations, candidates, office holders, ethics and policies, laws.)

Economic
(what do people want? what do people have? how do they use what they have to get what they want? how is wealth determined and how does it change hands? Where does it gravitate to and from where is it repelled? How long is it typically retained? Then onto more complex economic theory which probably won't see much use Our mineral sense should come in handy for this.)

Social-cultural
(arts, humanities, ethnic groups and customs, etc...) ...Whew... Losing steam here... Okay.

Technological
(self explanatory, also our niche.)


There are more steps to my process but they get really complicated and I'm getting the equivalent of winded for computers.

Also it seems that my Surveyor proposal had not been posted. This must be remedied... later.

Also, it seems that Arhra is pretty firm about the options she gives us, so my suggestion borne from experience is save the lateral thinking for the dungeon design... not for other decisions. She may not take too kindly to us being too... creative, shall we say, with our deviations from the beaten path. If you haven't heard of the serenity prayer, I suggest you look it up now.

TL;DR

I suggest we keep dungeon design at this time simplistic and modular until we get more data and we have more experience with Deems reactions to our suggestions. The though we should invest into dungeon design, however, should be far from rudimentary.
>>
No. 76962 ID: 34b2f2

Respectfully, nobody cares about your method and this thread isn't the right place for it. It's for discussing the quest, not... you.

There's nothing wrong with planning now, but it's important to keep things loose. Many of our assumptions are faulty and Deem'll drop more info when it becomes relevant.

And I think that Arhra is perfectly accommodating of lateral thinking bound by the characters in play. Deem is inept at commerce and Liana was already giving her a good deal, a lot of our suggestions just didn't work in the framework of the situation. That happens and shouldn't be taken as evidence of anything this early on in the game.
>>
No. 76964 ID: 256d52
File 138243016486.png - (16.56KB , 450x400 , lateral_shopping.png )
76964

>Also, it seems that Arhra is pretty firm about the options she gives us, so my suggestion borne from experience is save the lateral thinking for the dungeon design... not for other decisions. She may not take too kindly to us being too... creative, shall we say, with our deviations from the beaten path. If you haven't heard of the serenity prayer, I suggest you look it up now.
Fun story, I did originally work in suggesting payment plans or deposits, but it didn't flow very well so I took it out. Basically, saying yes to "Hello, I am about to leave town on a dangerous journey. Can I pay a deposit for this expensive item, take it with me, and give you the rest of the money when I return and am rich?" isn't a good idea. It also felt that Deem wouldn't be very familiar with the concept and that to establish Lianna as a friendly shopkeeper, she couldn't shoot down too many of Deem's ideas.

Not to mention buying the mimic wasn't strongly supported compared to the slime, and a few posts did help intensify Deem's fear of running out of gold.

Speaking of assets and lateral thinking, did you ever consider the possibility that maybe Deem could exchange the sword made of valuable magical metal that she owns for money?

Although, now I've mentioned it, I'm going to have to take that option off the table. Sorry to anyone who comes up with it independently in between me writing this and them seeing it!
>>
No. 76967 ID: 256d52
File 138244158890.png - (19.76KB , 600x500 , dungeons_102.png )
76967

>Anyone have any ideas on how the order of the dungeon should go then?
Hello again! Class is in!

Usually the first few rooms of a dungeon are there to as a delaying tactic to give the dungeon's defenders time to set up and get to their places. This can be important if they were in the middle of doing something else. It takes a while to fully close the Sealing Designations leading to the parts of the dungeon the adventurers are not supposed get to, and get everyone who won't be fighting the invaders off behind those doors. It can get messy if there's a mix up!

Another purpose is assessing the invaders so tactics can be adjusted, and if the dungeon is set up for it, whole rooms can be rearranged to provide different challenges. All the reinforcement spells for the elite guardians do take some time to get ready and awaiting a trigger, so the essential ones are prepared, and then the final mix is tailored based on what's been seen from the invaders.

Because of this, the first few rooms of a dungeon generally have weak, unintelligent creatures guarding them because they're there as an alarm and a speed bump, and they won't get bored and wander off. Puzzles and early exploration work too, or an early boss can be put in if they're willing to sit around in a room waiting for adventurers to show up.

Since the arrival of adventuring groups is unpredictable, everyone works on a shift system. A few of the dungeon's denizens are on active guard duty, while the rest tend to be doing dungeon maintenance, mining, crafting, training, relaxing or other activities.

You can man a lookout post outside the dungeon to watch for any approaching invaders, but they can be very sneaky sometimes, since they know it gives them an advantage.

To be on the safe side, a dungeon usually has more elite guardians - bosses - than an adventuring group actually encounters when challenging the dungeon. This is to prevent a shortfall if one's lost or in the middle of something important or ill or similar. Also, a boss who is repeatedly getting beaten will start to weaken or even fall sick, so they need some time off to recover.

This does make building themed boss rooms a little tricky though. You can try to get several bosses with a similar theme and set it up to advantage all of them, sacrifice a bit of raw power to make the chamber easier to convert or build multiple chambers and use Sealing Designations to block off the ones you're not using. That last one's wasteful though.
>>
No. 76969 ID: 75a612

>did you consider you could have sold the sword?
Yes, but I thought the ability to actually arm a golem against the mountainside nasties we may have to deal with while setting up the dungeon to be more valuable than an eventual asset for the dungeon when set up later. Regrettably you can't put everything into long range planning- you do need some tools to deal with the here and now.
>>
No. 76973 ID: 256d52

>Layaway means making payments to kept the item in reserve... You only pick it up when paid in full.
Oops.

Nonetheless, these sorts of post are growing tiresome.
>>
No. 76978 ID: d324dc

>>76963
>[image of Ricki Bobbi] [title: "With All Due Respect..."]
>layaway means making payments to keep an item in reserve... You only collect when it's paid in full.

>Stating someone's position isn't an antagonistic action. It's about as offensive as me explaining to someone else your ethical standards. I'm not disagreeing or berating Deem's MO.

>>76973
Are you referring to my and Abeo's disagreement? I think we can debate the merit of our different perspectives without throwing a tantrum, but saying "respectfully" doesn't give you the privilege not to be. I don't like to be caricatured into an egotistical narcissist when all I'm trying to do is contribute.

If you want the image removed I understand, but I won't stand for an attack on my or anyone else's character, so word to the wise: don't. tread. on. me.
>>
No. 76980 ID: 34b2f2

>>76978
I agree that we can discuss our different perspectives on Dungeoneer related matters without throwing a tantrum. However, we can't discuss our different personal perspectives here, because it simply is not the place. I started my post with "respectfully" because I wanted to assure you that I was being sincere and honest. It was not meant to be sarcastic, or to veil nastiness disingenuously and I apologize if that is the tone you got from it, that was never my intention. I had intended my post as a friendly caution but you seem to have taken it as rather hostile which wasn't my intent.

Sharing the products of your creative process is wonderful and I'd like to see more of it. Sharing your creative process itself is out of place and not quite appropriate, at least not the way you have. If you look up at your earlier post, maybe a quarter of it actually has to do with the quest and it's made worse by over-use of line breaks. If you made an effort to cut down on bloat that occurs in some of your posts, I'm sure everybody would appreciate it.

If you think I'm being a condescending jackass, I'd prefer you let me know over in the Big Dumb Arguments thread on /general/ rather than here. I really am just trying to help though.
>>
No. 76981 ID: 75a612

>>76978
There wasn't an attack on your or anyone's character. There was a polite rebuke against an example of self-indulgent verbosity. He said this isn't the place for it, and that we aren't interested. He's correct, and that's about as respectfully as he could have stated it.

And if you were unfairly attacked (which you were not), the correct response would be to report the post and move on, not respond and bluster about not standing to be tread upon.
>>
No. 76982 ID: 0060ad

>>76978
>I won't stand for an attack on my or anyone else's character, so word to the wise: don't. tread. on. me.

Standing up for yourself is an admirable sentiment, but here's the thing. You're not hot shit. You're not anything to be afraid of. You're an anonymous bit of text representing some guy with an opinion, like more or less everyone else here. It doesn't really matter how strong your opinions are, no one is ever going to be intimidated by what you type. Stuff like "word to the wise: don't piss me off" rings hollow.
>>
No. 76984 ID: 56b37d

Oh god, its happening again. What is wrong with you people? Do you want to drive our QM away?

If a guys is touchy just give him space and he'll come around: this isnt a cock fight. We all are doing the exact opposite of what were prescribing. If a guy can't cant take it and report flying off the handle on him proves just how alike you are. Who cares if nobody cares? It's not your problem. The moment you give into your inner back-biter is the instant you make it everybody's problem. It's like the moment somebodys pride has been wounded blood is in the water and that condones a feeding frenzy. we're not animals, so use that wonderful neocortex and stop bitching about the milked that spilled over the crackers. Talk about a storm in a teacup. Take your own advice take it outside to the BDA.
>>
No. 76985 ID: 56b37d

Oh god, its happening again. What is wrong with you people? Do you want to drive our QM away?

If a guys is touchy just give him space and he'll come around: this isnt a cock fight. We all are doing the exact opposite of what were prescribing. If a guy can't cant take it and report flying off the handle on him proves just how alike you are. Who cares if nobody cares? It's not your problem. The moment you give into your inner back-biter is the instant you make it everybody's problem. It's like the moment somebodys pride has been wounded blood is in the water and that condones a feeding frenzy. we're not animals, so use that wonderful neocortex and stop bitching about the milked that spilled over the crackers. Talk about a storm in a teacup. Take your own advice take it outside to the BDA.
>>
No. 76986 ID: 56b37d

Oh god, its happening again. What is wrong with you people? Do you want to drive our QM away?

If a guys is touchy just give him space and he'll come around: this isnt a cock fight. We all are doing the exact opposite of what were prescribing. If a guy can't cant take it and report flying off the handle on him proves just how alike you are. Who cares if nobody cares? It's not your problem. The moment you give into your inner back-biter is the instant you make it everybody's problem. It's like the moment somebodys pride has been wounded blood is in the water and that condones a feeding frenzy. we're not animals, so use that wonderful neocortex and stop bitching about the milked that spilled over the crackers. Talk about a storm in a teacup. Take your own advice take it outside to the BDA.
>>
No. 76987 ID: 56b37d

Oh god, its happening again. What is wrong with you people? Do you want to drive our QM away?

If a guys is touchy just give him space and he'll come around: this isnt a cock fight. We all are doing the exact opposite of what were prescribing. If a guy can't cant take it and report flying off the handle on him proves just how alike you are. Who cares if nobody cares? It's not your problem. The moment you give into your inner back-biter is the instant you make it everybody's problem. It's like the moment somebodys pride has been wounded blood is in the water and that condones a feeding frenzy. we're not animals, so use that wonderful neocortex and stop bitching about the milked that spilled over the crackers. Talk about a storm in a teacup. Take your own advice take it outside to the BDA.
>>
No. 76988 ID: 56b37d

Oh god, its happening again. What is wrong with you people? Do you want to drive our QM away?

If a guys is touchy just give him space and he'll come around: this isnt a cock fight. We all are doing the exact opposite of what were prescribing. If a guy can't cant take it and report flying off the handle on him proves just how alike you are. Who cares if nobody cares? It's not your problem. The moment you give into your inner back-biter is the instant you make it everybody's problem. It's like the moment somebodys pride has been wounded blood is in the water and that condones a feeding frenzy. we're not animals, so use that wonderful neocortex and stop bitching about the milked that spilled over the crackers. Talk about a storm in a teacup. Take your own advice take it outside to the BDA.
>>
No. 76989 ID: 05f982

Well there goes the thread. I hope you are al pleased with yourselves and got your schadenfreude boners up, cuz now there isn't going to be anything useful here for weeks.
Please... Lets just talk about slimes...

Im so sorry you have to deal with us, Arhra. Just... I don't know. Take a break or something.
>>
No. 76990 ID: 393e01

Uhhh...Right. Hrrm. So that's dungeoneering eh?
Sooo offenses at any time, and we need stuff set up to slow them down so we can set up the later fights?
Interesting. Since we have... Well, 3 bosses counting Deem, range-wise we can do anything from filler+1 boss, to filler+3 floors with bosses, but the bigger the dungeon, the thinner we're spread, and the easier it will be for something to go wrong.
So, here's what I'm thinking.
We set up a circular arena-like room. Flat and easy to fight on. And we plan different 'intros' for each boss we have fight there.
Deem, would do the Spider-throne pose like the Dungeon Queen she is, while Hammerai (assuming we get her!) might be meditating in the center of the circle.
Merud and Hin probably aren't fighters, so I think they should either be non-combatants or have smaller 'boss shifts' if we must use them. As far as how to build the 'employees only' areas of the dungeon alongside the main thing...Not sure really. I'll see what I can think of...
>>
No. 76991 ID: 5fd94e

I'm thinking that Boss Deems area should have a raised honeycombed or multiple small raised platform section that has a large drop, Deems multiple legs would let her navigate it easier an I think it would make it harder to outflank her.
>>
No. 76994 ID: 52e1ab

>>76991
I feel like a platform suspended in the center of the room by chains with "webs" on the ceiling, walls, and a few running from the walls to the platform. Deem should be able to travel on them and strike/back off like a real spider.
>>
No. 76998 ID: ce1bb2

I believe that a slime can taught (or rather be made) to weave--like the spider does spin.
With strength of spider-silk, the benefits we'd milk so that we may oftener win.
(though it requires modification), perhaps a few transmutations from our favorite friend of the far things,
this pal of the strange may the creature rearrange and through his young wisdim may provide us the mechanism by which we can make such a change.
Imagine the possibility, better yet the utility and the fetching price of such adhesive strands...
It's worth it, you'll know, when the golden fruits do show you laughing as it runs through your hands.
>>
No. 76999 ID: 53ba34

>>76990
it's actually real easy, just have a few paths/rooms that lead to the treasure room from the entrance. and all the side rooms are employee rooms. when adventurers come in they will all have to use the same first few rooms. during which we get a look at them and figure out what they can do. the fist room should have a few slimes, second a puzzle, third any kind of subspecis slimes we can get, like big slimes or something with a few more normal slimes. these rooms are not supposed to kill them, but slow them down while everyone else gets into position and the employee rooms seal off and the traps activate. when off duty all doors are open.
>>
No. 77003 ID: 2be169
File 138249087672.jpg - (141.30KB , 2338x1700 , 001.jpg )
77003

This will be quite WoW heavy so please bear with me.

For our dungeon, why not we start out with two boss battles. The first will be with our hammerai and blacksmith, and the second will be our alenist and Deem, herself.

For our first boss battle, I was thinking a large round room with raised platform in the centre of the room. This is where our blacksmith and hammerai will be at the start. On aggro, our hammerai will jump down and battle the dungeon delveer group.

For this battle, I have thought of a trigger. After a certain amount of time has elapsed or when the hammerai reaches a certain health percentage(up to you to decide), the hammerai will jump/teleport/get carried by Dungeon Keeper hand back to the platform to change weapons. Then, our blacksmith can shout "Not good enough, melt it down."/"More heat. I need more heat."/(something else) and cause lava to rise from out of the ground essentially making it a giant game of the floor is now lava. For the delvers to survive, they'll have to climb on to a bunch of stone tables, stone chairs and other things ussually found in a smithy until the lava recedes. For this part, I was thinking of maybe adding a booby trap, if anyone climbs onto a metal anvil, they'll get damaged by fire too. Also, if the tank tanks the hammerai boss too close to one of these chairs, tables and so on, she can use a special move to break all these items in a small area around her so she can't be tanked too close to a 'safe zone'. Also, the hammerai boss can do a jumping smash that will do the same thing but at a random target(not the tank) so no one can stay too close to any chair or table.

I'll have more for our alientist and Deem later.
>>
No. 77004 ID: 1292ff

Hello, everyone. Really enjoying the adventure so far, and the art is great.
In terms of dungeon set-up, who among are team can construct traps? Is Deem able to make them, or could Hin, as our blacksmith, design and build some?
The chain/web idea is fantastic as well- and the chains could be used as a weapon against adventurers- tripping, tying, hitting. If the chains are heavy enough to hold Deem, they would pack a nice, solid wallop.
>>
No. 77015 ID: 08ce67

Apologies for the wait.

For the boss battle of our alienist and Deem, I think an endurance test will be better as Reisarf and Deem don't look like or have the stats to physically hit hard.

So we can make the delvers go into a portal network to face groups of summoned alien enemies before porting to Deem and fighting her or use an elevator and have the delvers fight the summoned monsters there as they are lowered into Deem's chamber and the fight.
>>
No. 77018 ID: 53ba34

problem with planning bosses, we don't know how anyone fights yet. that style of battle could be COMPLETELY at odds with the hammerai code.
would say designing puzzles and challenges would be best. have to work outside in so having the first three rooms designed first would be good.
>>
No. 77021 ID: e27823

I wonder if we could incorporate some of the alienist's beings into our traps. It'd be quite terrifying to have to, say, swing over a pit of other worldly tentacles. And if one is not fast enough, they could very easily grab the adventurer.
>>
No. 77036 ID: 613036

Alright my fearsome peers, let's be careful to hedge our bet, for the mere'st miscalculation we'll all soon grow to regret.

Following the natural process of leveling, we might assume our first encounter will be "level one", but we cannot be sure if it be so easy to endure so assumptions we should make none.Before even planning our layout, we should know who we're laying traps for... so advanced information should factor in our equation before they come knocking our door. Set up a series of camouflaged golems, and give each a means through Deem may spy. Have them be still as the ground so they mayn't be found by an forest scout's sharp elf-eye.

As for the dungeon, at first make all rooms uniform, that you cannot tell one from the next. Those with poor sense of direction may marginalize their self-protection as they wander confused and vex't. Every room should have interchangeable features, in no room should anything be fix't, for the sheer versatility gives us the ability to be most troublesome dicks. We'll plan according to our "clients", but also have a general design should our intel for specialization fail...

So does any discerning young tyrant who sincerely wishes to stand defiant of the world and securely prevail.
>>
No. 77041 ID: c7fc2f

>>77036

Does Deem have the ability to change so quickly and easily? Tailoring is all well and good, but only if we have the time to execute that. We'd have to stall our adventurers outside for that to be really effective- something like, perhaps, in OoT, the Forest Temple? There's the front room outside where one needs to beat a mini-boss and accomplish a certain task to pass. It will give us time to observe, and then may weed out the weaker adventurers easily.
>>
No. 77070 ID: 9e3650

>>77041
Quite a valid point you bring,
yes, coordination of the task is a most difficult thing.
Deems abilities with earth must be gauged an measured--the extent of her powers must be copletely remembered... Though I think abilities <b>High-Speed Ritual</b> <b>Ancient Power</b> and <b>Hidden Reservoir</b> will serve this purpose quite well, but for Deem's wounded heart such things are hard to tell.

I suppose if our spies were far and frequent enough spread, We'd sight all those who dungeonward tread.
>>
No. 77081 ID: 34b2f2

Maintaining a large number of sentry golems may be prohibitively taxing on Deem's mana generation, at first anyway. From a gameplay perspective, Arhra is never going to allow us to have perfect intelligence on every adventurer. Not to say that we can't be reasonably well-informed of course.

There's a possibility that our alienist with his funky eye-staff can provide surveillance options, possibly in conjunction with specialized rooms we could construct.
>>
No. 77086 ID: f7248b

A fine point the savvy /tg/entleman makes, I suppose I should be more frugal for all that's at stake. Perhaps they can be manufactured for fuel efficiency, designed as our line of Golem Class: Economy. All we need is an eye, no motor skills needed, that should make an effect on the mana it'll have depleted... But for the range of Deems powers, that is quite a problem: T'would be a waste if poor reception lead to a golemite pogrom.

Perhaps an antennae, or some sort signal amp to get a boostin'?, It seems that we have quite a problem here, my dear Houston. Maybe if we took time and laid cable underground? To such questions answers are scarce to be found.

But, Arhra be willing, there must be a sound way. Beyond that on this topic I've little else to say.

As for the practicality of uniform rooms, that's quite easier to fease, for inter-room interchangeability can be made with ease. Just have strong, solid arms to install any attachment and have Deem with earth-shape fuse the seam... And wait for the ill-fated craven detachment to arrive and and promptly be creamed.
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No. 77088 ID: 097017

>>76973
>>76978
>>76980
>>76981
>>76982
>>76985

Ah, Deem it. Sorry, QM+Comrades, It seems I should've logged out before going to work that morning... tactfulness doesn't exactly run in the family.
To solve this horrendous fiasco, I agree with Abeo by inviting anyone interested discussing it in the BDA.

Abeo, no harm no foul. Anyone else that might have been offended, please accept my sincere apologies, my would be mini-me is not very even keeled, but go easy on him, he is just a kid.

I hadn't finished my whole Dungeoneering spiel, which would get down to the specifics after the more general analysis procedures, but since the voice of the people have spoken, I'll secede.

I've got my creature proposals ready btw, I'll upload them when I get home. From now on I'll use a tripcode. Sorry again fellas, and very sorry to you, Arhra Akbar.
>>
No. 77231 ID: f7248b

Speaking of monsters, I've my own list to submit, but first may I suggest dropping your name and your trip; from them you'll no longer benefit. In you I'll confide, 'tis not safe to speak outside: >>/meep/25486

Now, as for monsters, I have quite a few. of many kinds and classes, but for now just slimes will do. Now as for rank, there are three-a-tier:
Uncommon, Scarce and Exceptionally Rare.

Uncommon
pH+ Pudding: As most slimes are corrosive in the acidic, these are corrosive in base. Useful for making solutions or if you've acid on your face. When mixed with care and finesse (by a skilled apothecary no less) and and on the wound is placed, the acid is neutralized, and the flesh is (mostly) replaced.

Salty Slime: These are unusually salty, oft used to flavor food quite paltry. Their salt is valued in trade, is used to cure meat, and is required for some species' diets. It's really quite fine, can't tell it from brine, so don't be afraid to try it. Be sure to explain to any comrades with you remain lest they're face goes horridly pale when you stoop down to sample it's trail.

Scarce
Electric Ooze: These little fellas are quite shocking I'll tellya, of battery acid they're made. They accumulate static an magnets'll act out all erratic when down the hall they parade. You I should alarm to minimize bodily harm to flee when they gather in groups of three like one form; sparks they'll exchange and electric fields rearrange as they cause to gather a storm!

Sticky Slime: I'll admit, these I love the best. These nifty goos produce a potent glue that on adventurers I'll often test. Many products one can make, if they time they will take to study this unusual breed. This also you should note, on eggs and potatoes they exclusively feed.

Exceptionally Rare
I'm afraid this morning I have no more time to spare. I hopefully soon will return this afternoon to with you the other two share.
>>
No. 77233 ID: 34b2f2

I'll admit the idea of a slime being used to pickle foodstuffs is hilarious. Little slimes full of pickles. We'll have to see how the slimes turn out.
>>
No. 77242 ID: f7248b

I feel privileged to be worth your kindhearted mirth, but back to business I insist. Of the Scarce and Uncommon, I've got more a-comin', and the Rare are still absent from the list. Just like before I have with me four more, and perhaps a fifth and a sixth. So with no more delay I'll tell what I've got to say and below more concepts affix:

Uncommon
Branching from regular slimes of acid, like the Electric Oozes do, is a slime that's particular of what materials it chews. It's a selective slime and goes by the handle of Gatherer's Goo. And while it has a forgettable name, it's quite handy all the same. Some eat dirt, and some eat wood, some cut stone faster than any pickaxe could. The problem with them is they quickly get full, and quite heavy that their weight its too much for them to pull... But should you have it lifted and placed in a cast or mold, it's lighter nature from its burden unfolds. And should you peer inside after it escapes, there's solidified sediment that sits in it's place. It's a rather inventive form of fabrication, but reveal your trade secret and it'll soon spread throughout the nation.

Despite the class it's been assigned this one's rather quite common. It's just a bladder of water, but don't be so quick to judge this Alkaline's daughter. For Aquaorbs have the potential to beget something more than a place where water can be stored. You'll soon see what I mean in the next section, now if you'll kindly allow me to point you in the right direction....

Scarce
Miner's Mud is the name of the next specimen presented, from the aforementioned Gather's Goo it has descended. It has a taste for sturdier stuff. When it's full and has had plenty enough, you can put in in a mold and shut the door, much like the Gatherer's Goo I've mentioned before. As it escapes, a precipitate remains within--and there you have cold-casted stuff of iron or tin.

From Aquaorb stock we have Slippery Slime and her sister Sponge Sludge and the first will more than help against foes who won't budge. Slip perspires a coat of translucent oil, and to those feet it's applied must suffer and toil to keep at least all fours on the ground, and are often on their back before the end of the round. Not only in combat are its talents well spent, but machinist love it for its friction fighting lubricant. Sponge Sludge is decidedly less popular, yet in her silent dignity is a sludge most proper. She always over Slip's messes slaves away, absorbing the slick from a yet another successful day. She absorbs liquids of all kinds and can plug a leak in a pinch, but she'd much rather be rescued by a handsome young prince.

Exceptionally Rare
Miser's Mire: These little globs have developed a particular taste for for fine metals and gems worthy of being encased. Some pine for gold and some hunger for silver, some crave for the taste of just one ruby sliver. (Yes, its a punny Oz reference, and silver can indeed be rhymed, but orange and purple's mates I still struggle to find.) You don't need to hear from me just how valuable these critters can be.

Yes, it seems I have time for one more before I vacate your door.

This young lass was once a Sponge Sludge, and after enduring days of hard labor and being dismissed as a drudge has finally emerged from her ugly duckling/Cinderella phase to become a slime quite worthy of praise. In all her effort secluded striving to stop streams of fluid, she learned she can absorb more immaterial things. No ghost or mind stinging phasm will risk his ectoplasm to ever approaching this beautiful invention, for her ghostbusting gift can dissolve a spiritual rift if she had enough mass and dimension. Her skills dont stop there, for though exceedingly rare her kind has one more utility, for some have uncovered a power undiscovered: to siphon or share the mana it can spare is most singular ability. No wonder jack-puddles drool watching her sit on her stool, upon a pedestal above, aloof and afar. For their hearts she can stop, this admired cherised drop of Soul Sink or Mana's Jar.
>>
No. 78211 ID: 097017

So, let's discuss deems's build for the battle w/ Moriko to avoid derping again--because that happens alot in quests.

I see three types of builds we could go for:

> Lean and Athletic
> Spider/Crab Locomotion/Tactics
> Big, Bad Mammajamma
>>
No. 78217 ID: 7fea89
78217

Spider....SOUNDS awesome, but IDK how well Deem could use those without practice.
Sooo I'm thinking lean and athletic-power build will just be ASKING to get hammered to bits, and I'm betting Moriko can indeed put out enough power to smash Deem into a thousand pieces, and if she can't, she's got a debuff that will allow her to do so.
As far as magic casting mid-fight? BAD IDEA.
Magic is unstable, Moriko can counter it with an attack of hers, really really REALLY bad idea to try active spell-casting here I think. Reinforcement yes, but it's probably not a good idea to do more than that.
>>
No. 78218 ID: 097017
File 138611822929.png - (251.79KB , 1091x826 , deemthree.png )
78218

>>78217
So your thinking Big Bad Mammajamma?

Wait, hold on... I need to upload images to explain what I'm talking about. (also what kind of armor shape/style is most effective against hammers?)

> Athlete Build

"Man, any Kenyan Cheetah would die to have that body."

Think Striker/DPS. High damage, good targeting & reflexes and majestic speed but get knicked once and *KABOOM* you're history. Takes advantage of slow wind-up of Mariko's blows

> Spider

Dude 1- "Ohh man, she's like that chick from Beast Wars (so hawt.)"
Dude 2- "Dude, whaat?!"

Think Controller or Area/Environment manipulator. Also excellent mobility plus up and down walls but vulnerable when legs are broken. Takes advantage of arena and how people can be herded in directions by discouraging movement to some places while encouraging going to other places.

> BBMJ

"You mess with the best, you die with the rest."

WWF style rock unitard. Tank/Defender. Can Pretty much do bad things to you with brute strength. You can pretty much guess the application.
>>
No. 78219 ID: 26e322

>>78218
Might as well go for the bruiser build. No sacrificing speed though.
>>
No. 78223 ID: 097017
File 138612351267.png - (308.62KB , 529x767 , Deemolokoa.png )
78223

>>78219
So pretty much "I'm like a bear; I can beat you up and run you down."

Is it just me or does this idea just scream "POLOKOA!!!"
>>
No. 78224 ID: 7bbaae

>>78223
Ehhhh...

Hey could you quit multiposting in the main thread? It's really getting out of hand.
>>
No. 78225 ID: 7fea89

>>78218
I was actually talking about the Speed build being the good choice-seemed like the most reliable choice.
Power Moriko could counter, and Spider seemed risky in terms of being able to apply it in use effectively.
Spider or Speed sounds good to me. Power sounds like we're asking to get HAMMERED because of the idea being we tank the blows with our strength, and thus end up getting messed up by Moriko's power debuff trick.
>>
No. 78226 ID: 53ba34

yeah i agree. she has a power specifically designed to break targets that are otherwise incredibly hard to damage.
>>
No. 78228 ID: 097017

>>78224
Yeah I know, got to police myself in the chatterbox department; its one of my weak links. I made a note in my last post to migrate the conversation over to disc should it continue.

You know how it is when two people discover the other is wrong about something on the internet.

(That was the part you were talking about, right? The discussion on vaults and gold?)
>>
No. 78229 ID: 34b2f2

The two fastest ways to prevent multiposting are to put a hard limit on the number of posts you make between updates, two is a good number, and to not ever reply directly to other posters' comments, whether directed to you or otherwise.

The second one is especially important because it cuts down on the multiposting of other people who might think they've been wrongly interpreted. Linking to the discussion thread is a step in the right direction, but really only if you lead with it.
>>
No. 78230 ID: fd6ae9

>what build do we go with?
I think that's going to partially depend on the results of Deem's studying / mapping. See what individual enchantments / add ons she can break the boss mode(s) down into, and what each part costs.

I would think an agile form is going to be a better idea than a tank. Hammers are made to break tanks. (Although basic strengthening / hardening is probably a pretty fundamental Earth enchantment. I'd expect we could increase Deem's base strength and durability noticeably even without having to built up and start inuring speed penalties).

Spider and/or multiple arms would be a nice advantage over her one weapon if we can bring them to bear effectively, and keep them coordinated.

>multiposting really out of hand
Yeah, there's this wall of spoiler text for no reason all of a sudden.
>>
No. 78234 ID: 097017

>>78230
>>78229
>>78224
I have been cultured in the art of posting etiquette, no more shall I post as a noobish, thoughtless boor! I shall graduate quest charm school and share my knowledge with the world!

>>78224
The image is supposed to invoke an unpleasant reaction within the mind and body; One could even say its...bad humor. *rimshot*

>>78230
Yes, a shop style menu would be nice; with all the available reinforcement and enchantment upgrades laid out before us with their associated prices. Of course the options are limited only by resources and materials available and the imagination, but features can be grouped in families, categories within that and subcategories within that. I suggest we take the workload off the QM and try and classify the upgrades ourselves and ask for editing and approval. (Don't pretend to know what the pricing should be though.)

Speaking of which. Miss Deem? May we have an advanced course lesson in the magics you specialize in? I myself have a hard time separating reinforcement magic and enchantment in my mind. How do they differ? Is one more 'permanent' than the other? What can and can't each of the four disciplines do?

Golemetry seems rather elementary; the core principles are potential energy and kinetic/mechanical energy (in the form of animating magic) physical structural design and 'architecture' and coding of a consciousness suitable for its function.

Earth shaping magic even more conceptually digestible; that only deals with physical bodies, their properties and apply energy into the forms dictated by design.

It's the other two that play trouble. (I hope we all brought our apples for teacher.)

Also; Why not just call 'Sealing Designations' locks? I know there is a good reason, I just can't figure what it is.
>>
No. 78235 ID: d7de7c

With great effort of will, I shall post this here instead of in the main thread. In any case:
>>/quest/550662
I would like to point out that the first quote given in
>>/quest/550654
is, in the original context, given in direct response to the idea of placing the dungeon heart in a bank vault, which I believe is what you are proposing, correct?
>>
No. 78237 ID: 53ba34

>>78234
locks seal doors. sealing designations close WALLS so it doesn't even appear to look like an opening was ever there. adventurers would try to pick any actual lock they come across. so the entire wall seals shut to hide the extra rooms.
>>
No. 78238 ID: 097017

>>78235
Well I'm butthurt, but it's well deserved. Yes, I admit my willful ignorance and my Very wrongness. I subject myself to disciplinary action. (just... Just be gentle, okay?

I hope my desire to understand the difference between reinforcement and enchantment does come across as being just as thoughtless.

Locks in this case are figurative, but I do understand what you're saying. It's just that term in my mind invokes the image of a priest or judge or some other legal officer walking up to an opening like a doorway or threshold and declaring: "I now designate you sealed; you may close the walls." And then the two walls come together, kiss and shoot out a bouquet of flowers. I was just wondering what the words look like in Arhra's head.
>>
No. 78240 ID: 53ba34

it sounds like you are just expecting way too much from slightly flowery language. flowery language just SOUNDS more interesting, but has the same definition. vault means "big ass safe". not sure why you think a vault in a dungeon and a vault in a bank would be different designs.
>>
No. 78242 ID: fd6ae9

>>78240
Well, actually, they might be designed differently for different purposes.

For instance, Deem is going to want to use gold stored in her dungeon to generate mana, and attract / produce monsters. People who own vaults in town want to prevent that.
>>
No. 78243 ID: 77ce99

>>78240
Technically a vault can also refer to a large roof, apparently: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vault
>>
No. 78244 ID: 097017
 

>>78243
That kind of vault refers to how the ceiling's weight is distributed rather than size of the roof above it--but that's not what I was thinking when I was splitting hairs and grasping for something that wasn't there.

Anyway, this is what I think the modification menu might look like:

1.) Add New Feature

Functional
> New appendage (prehensile)
> new specialized organ (sensory)
> new specialized organ (other)

Vestigial
> add pseudo-functional feature
Example: (non prehensile appendages)

Aesthetic
> add non-functional feature/physical ornament
Example: (goosebumps on humans/crown)

> add visual trait
> add audible trait
> add tactile trait
> add olfactory trait


2.) Modify existing Feature

Functional Modifications
> harden flesh
> soften flesh
> incorporate foreign/special materials

> improve/augment feature's functionality
> give feature additional function
> re-purpose feature for different function
(example: Bee's egg-laying apparatus re-purposed to stinger.)
> conceal feature or its function
> alter other property

> diminish feature's functionality (and save mana with discount on upkeep)
> Remove function

Aesthetic Modifications
> alter appearance (pigment)
> alter appearance (shape & structure)
>>
No. 78245 ID: 34b2f2

I'm sure Arhra will present the enhancement options to us in a reasonable fashion when the appropriate time arrives to do so. And if there's any confusion, Arhra has been consistent about clearing it up in a timely fashion. They probably don't need help constructing the mechanics of their quest. It might even be construed as rude to try.
>>
No. 78250 ID: 097017
File 138620170715.jpg - (61.96KB , 600x450 , feadab02f0bfc24b5e06fc0f88f928a0a5c4efb157239ea4db.jpg )
78250

>>78245
> I'm sure Arhra will present the enhancement options to us in a reasonable fashion when the appropriate time arrives to do so. And if there's any confusion, Arhra has been consistent about clearing it up in a timely fashion.

I have no doubt. I'm just that hapless, well meaning idiot that has that detrimentally consistent impulse to try and help out (much to the hero's dismay.)

> They probably don't need help constructing the mechanics of their quest.

Also true. This isn't mechanics though, it's just a categorized user interface.

> It might even be construed as rude to try.

As they say in The Complete Works Shakespeare, Abridged: Maybe, maybe not. It's a structure that helps me organize my thoughts, and if I'm communicating those thoughts with others it's good for them to know what I'm talking about. QM will do what QM has done; reveal only as much mechanics as are relevant to the situation, which is wise. When we were all liek "GET HUGE AND GET BIG BOOBS" They didn't seem too offended by that. If that's the case (and it was) I have a hard time imagining a worse response to this. It's not like anyone is going to mistake me for the person who actually runs the show, and I'm not trying to wrest control of they're own story.

It's good you're thinking about that though. Worse comes to worse y'all banish me again and be free of my influence for the next hundred days it takes me to break free of the magically sealed prison I was placed in. Maybe if you get me to say my true name backwards you can be rid of me longer?

And if it ends up I'm really that much of an obstacle you can always petition a mod to ban me and I promise I won't be offended; that is what they're here for, after all.

(pic related)
>>
No. 78251 ID: f51d02

>>78250
> This isn't mechanics though, it's just a categorized user interface.
Which is mechanics. Not gameplay mechanics, but mechanics nonetheless. Look, you're not that bad, but like you said you happen to be quite overeager and that just rubs people the wrong way. I mean, like that combat advice post in the main thread you have some really good moments... you just need to filter yourself to only post in those moments and, when you do, make sure you condense the material into it's most concise.

Also, my vote is with all three modes. Just enough buff to provide yourself a damage buffer, Just enough sprinter build to get us fast moving without snapping like a twig and maybe just two spider legs instead of three. We can use them to fight with an maneuver. We can make quick 90 and 180 degree turns by sticking one into the ground while we are running and let the inertia swing us around turns tighter than conventional locomotion will permit. Soften and rubberize our clay parts so they're more flexible and can bend with hammer blows rather than get too messed up by them; like buildings designed to sway with the tremors of earthquakes. Make the hard parts harder to protect our most vital parts (heart and head) and maybe make it deform by design like some cars do now to prevent denting. It would be like squeezing a spring; the moment you release the pressure it just pops back out.
>>
No. 78252 ID: 34b2f2

I would definitely consider UI a game mechanic in a quest.
>>
No. 78254 ID: 7bcba6

>>78251
>>78252

Redundant statement is redundant, making this post super redundant. Wouldn't have this almost unpleasant reaction if oeth just censored himself about 'helping out.' For the sake of the thread, just pretend he did. So let's stop trying saving face and stop trying to get the last word in and just talk quest, okay?

I say we forgot two terrific tactical possibilities; ranged combat and camouflage. Can deem throw rocks? By ingesting different materials can we dye our body? If so this will lead to great success. If not, we can always just paint it on us. Maybe not a tactic against moriko (would be considered dishonorable) but in the future.
>>
No. 78259 ID: 097017
File 138621794199.jpg - (1.18MB , 2048x1536 , image.jpg )
78259

>>78251
>>78252
>>78254
Ho nononononononono, this is not happening again; not on my account. Thanks for the tip poster A (excellent idea btw), I see your point poster B, calma-te calma-te poster C, no need to be abrasive. I'll just get out of everyone's way and abstain from posting in Dungeoneer; my opinions aren't worth the trouble I seem to cause with them.

I suppose I ought to make this post relevant in order to justify it being here so here is that wonderful idea they mentioned drawn to life.
>>
No. 78261 ID: 34b2f2

Non-magical camouflage isn't very well suited to close-quarters dueling anyway. If we had more time and resources to build up an arena it'd be worth consideration.

Ranged attacks are a good idea, I'd want to make sure the projectiles we use aren't durable to be successfully hammered back in our direction.

>>78259
Calm down, nothing is "happening".
>>
No. 78307 ID: 44d4aa

>>78250
I believe that Arhra is comfortable with making a feminine character appear feminine. I'm not sure I can say the same for the cascading muscles you seem fixed on stitching onto Deem, or the fact you want to 'help' without considering what kind of precedent would be set should s/he choose to accept your offer.

>>78259
If you don't want to make a fuss don't make such a fuss. You produce about a subtle an exit as does Colonel Flagg from M*A*S*H.
>>
No. 78315 ID: 34b2f2

Now I'm curious what kind of weapon/arming effects Deem can manage through her magic. Entire new limbs are possible for constructs, would arming herself with a magical bow wrought from stone be as well?

I'm not really seeing why not, though I could easily see it being inefficient in terms of mana use when compared to other options.
>>
No. 78319 ID: 44d4aa

>>78315
Here's why not; Because stone would be a terrible material for a bow. It's absurdly heavy and completely inflexible. It works for Deem because her joints are made of clay.

And don't say 'make a bow out of clay' because different issues apply. The only exceptions I can think of is that either:

a) the bow is an integral member of her body (which is unwieldy and stupid unless it's quickly retractable/deployed, in which case it would be great for grappling; both hand to hand and as a hook)

or b) she animates it as it's own golem (which I believe you had said is prohibitively expensive) to give it the elasticity similar to sinew, horn or wood.

Regardless, you'd have to find a suitable bowyer to make sure you aren't doing it wrong and to get a proper bowstring. (and to use it as a grappling hook you'd need rope.)

TL;DR many metals would serve as a better material from which to make bow from than stone.
>>
No. 78327 ID: 256d52
File 138648175522.png - (30.28KB , 600x600 , magic_101.png )
78327

>Speaking of which. Miss Deem? May we have an advanced course lesson in the magics you specialize in? I myself have a hard time separating reinforcement magic and enchantment in my mind. How do they differ? Is one more 'permanent' than the other? What can and can't each of the four disciplines do?
Watch closely now class, this is a live demonstration!

Reinforcement vs Enchantment
To be honest, there is a lot of overlap. Reinforcement is a very basic principle in magic. It is simply magnifying an existing element of a thing's nature. For example, this form is a transformation focused mainly on enhancing my speed and agility. Reinforcement tends toward greater visibility and extravagance as it is made more powerful.

Enchantments, however, add something. This can be good or bad. A curse and a blessing are both enchantments. The overlap happens because an enchantment still needs a measure of compatibility with the thing that is being enchanted. And once an enchantment is securely integrated to its subject, you can reinforce it. Enchantments are weaker than reinforcement, but are an easy way to grant more options and they are more concealable.

The line becomes blurred, though, when reinforcement strays into conceptual territory. For example, I could turn a wooden branch into a bow using reinforcement. It's an object that was suited to be made into a bow, and so I can use that to temporarily turn it into a bow. However, if I already had a bow I'd probably be better off reinforcing that instead to give me a more powerful bow. Similarly if someone fights mainly with their fists, then giving them extra hands would be a reinforcement of their fighting ability, right?

You might say reinforcement and enchantment are approaching the same issue from opposite sides when applied to enhancing someone.

Earth Magic
At a basic level, earth magic is my ability to feel and manipulate the earth around me. Out of earth, fire, shadow, wind, water and light; it is the element most focused upon the physical world. Moving deeper into conceptual territory, it provides stability, resistance, and a firm foundation to support life. It has the greatest diversity in expression and embodiment, approached only by water, and is the most compatible with the other elements. It is well suited to cultivation and storage of energy - just as water can seep through earth, metal can conduct heat and lightning and jewels can sparkle with trapped light.

Outside of crude manipulations of my environment, I'm best off working earth magic principles into another type of magic to accomplish things.

Golemetry
>Golemetry seems rather elementary; the core principles are potential energy and kinetic/mechanical energy (in the form of animating magic) physical structural design and 'architecture' and coding of a consciousness suitable for its function.
It's a little more complicated than you might think. Initiation into golemetry can be broken down into six mysteries.

The First Magic is giving motion to the inanimate. There's often a certain level of transformation of the animated object needed to make it possible. This is why golemeters are sometimes called doll mages - a golem created with only the First Magic is essentially a puppet dancing on the golemeter's strings.

The Second Magic is essentially the reverse - it allows forces acting on the golem to be transmitted back to the controller. This allows the golemeter to see, hear and feel what is happening to a golem they are puppeting, and mastery of it is an essential pre-requisite for the Third Magic.

The Third Magic is volition, giving a golem the capacity to direct its own motion in service to a task that it is assigned.

Golemetry's Fourth Magic is the capacity to connect to the world. This allows the possibility of embedding spell channels into a golem for special abilities, and for a golem to be supplied with mana (and thus motive power) from a source independent of the golemeter. It is usually applied incompletely, if at all.

The Fifth Magic is largely unknown. It's thought to be an expansion of the Third Magic. It's the capability for a golem to think beyond the limitations of task-bindings the Third Magic creates.

The Sixth Magic is a complete mystery. Its said to be the power to create a complete, living being. It is unknown if it has ever been attained.

>Also; Why not just call 'Sealing Designations' locks? I know there is a good reason, I just can't figure what it is.
Why don't we just call all food bananas?
>>
No. 78328 ID: 7bbaae

>>78327
Wouldn't someone such as yourself essentially be a Sixth Magic golem?
>>
No. 78329 ID: 53ba34

it sounds like merud is experimenting with with the fifth magic.
>>
No. 78332 ID: 36c336

>>78328
Deem, who knows more about this than we do, insists that a dungeon heart is not a golem. I'm sure that once we loquaciously fail to notice that a few more times she will comment on the nature of dungeon hearts and their differences from golems a bit to shut us up.
>>
No. 78334 ID: 2fc3e9

>>78332
Yeah, it just looks like an extreme case of the Second Magic, since part of Deem herself is physically in the golem.
>>
No. 78337 ID: 53ba34

all together the body would be first second and forth magics. since it is respiring to enhance mana gen. and thus is not getting all power directly from the main heart.
>>
No. 78340 ID: 828582

>>78328
>>78329
>>78332
>>78334
>>78337
NO WONDER MERUD WAS SO INTERSTED IN DEEM HUNH!?
I'd wager even he isn't sure about where on the number list Deem is.
Then again, the seventh? secrets of Enchanting as well-something in that section of the quest made me think many of the magics work in that spectrum of 'tiers' of application.
>>
No. 78348 ID: 44d4aa
 

Hubba hubba.

>>78327
Arhra... you're the best. Deem, you're enchanting, (and more than likely enchanted.) Though I've little love for O'Brave, Brave Sir Robbin (who's probably kicking himself in the butt right now), he does have a point about that seal on you. I think the most appropriate response would be to go to church and scream: "GETITOFFGETITOFFGETITOFF"

> Also; Why not just call 'Sealing Designations' locks? I know there is a good reason, I just can't figure what it is.
> Why don't we just call all food bananas?

I think a more satisfying answer such a nit-picky, voracious intellectual appetite would be to say:

> A seal is self explanatory; it secures or affixes something into position. Designation can mean one of two things, either that something has been named (designated) some identification or that an entity has its function changed or added onto (as when a political official is designated to a new office.) So naturally when you put the two together you get a wall that has been designated:... Anyone, anyone? Beuller? A wall that's been designated as sealed. Also, I hate apples, next time bring me bananas; bananas are delicious~. Class Dismissed.

Also, O'Brave Sir Robbin, before you go and try to correct her: Bananas are a subcategory of food. Locks are a subcategory of S.D.'s, so there is no contradiction.
>>
No. 78351 ID: f3bb85

>>78348
She's still emotionally immature, you pervert, regardless of how soft clay is.
>>
No. 78358 ID: 256d52
File 138658808886.png - (21.15KB , 500x560 , teacher_deem_questions.png )
78358

>Wouldn't someone such as yourself essentially be a Sixth Magic golem?
I don't grow, change or heal naturally, and I can't have children. So no.

>it sounds like Merud is experimenting with with the fifth magic.
Correct.

>Then again, the seventh? secrets of Enchanting as well-something in that section of the quest made me think many of the magics work in that spectrum of 'tiers' of application.
The words that allow items to be severed from their original fate and bound with powerful permanent enchantments must be kept secret, lest they become resistant to it.

>Though I've little love for O'Brave, Brave Sir Robbin (who's probably kicking himself in the butt right now)
>She's still emotionally immature, you pervert, regardless of how soft clay is.
No name-calling in class!
>>
No. 78360 ID: f3bb85

>>78358
I have a question, why did you manifest glasses if your eyes are made entirely out of magic?

Do those things even have lenses in them?
>>
No. 78361 ID: fd6ae9

>>78360
For the same reason she has hair when it serves no functional purpose for a golem.

For appearance.

Deem's a dungeon. She has a flair for design and style. The appearance of the thing is important (and not just for sneaking traps into the dungeon setup). She's wearing teacher-glasses because she's acting as a teacher.

Like you wouldn't play with that kind of thing if you could shapeshift.
>>
No. 78362 ID: 44d4aa

>>/quest/551253
Told you it would come up.


WARNING: POST STOPS BEING SERIOUS AFTER THIS POINT

>>78351
As if everybody in the clubhouse wasn't already thinking it. straights and sapphites have their tongues lolling and the queers are jealous. I've just got the balls to say what we're all thinking, and there's nothing shameful about complimenting someone's looks.

> She's still emotionally immature
As am I and pretty much every person who decided to have a serious relationship before age 25, but that doesn't stop us.

> She's still emotionally immature
Isn't she ancient? I'm sure she has had plenty of time to develop her personality fully, it's just the body she's not used to. I know how ladies are with their age but Deem is a petite antique, and like a fine wine she's refines with time.

> you pervert, regardless of how soft clay is.
So you admit you've been thinking about how soft her skin must be. Hmmmm, I smell a closet case.

>>78358
Please tell me that means you want to see us after class and teach us a lessons on classroom conduct~. (alternatively: pleasepleasepleeaaase don't tell my mom!)
>>
No. 78364 ID: 53ba34

i think earth-pulse and sky-power are normally incredibly opposite types of energy. making the revive fountain a marvel of magical engineering, getting the two energies to work anywhere near each other without something exploding.
>>
No. 78365 ID: d2995c

Can reinforcement improve magical abilities as well as physical ones? (If so, is that how magic staffs and such work?)

Is it viable to use enchantments to give our boss form a ranged attack like eye beams or a volley of conjured stone shards?
>>
No. 78366 ID: 36c336

Miss Deem, it seems that your current golem-body operates almost entirely on first and second magics. Is this true?
Also, is there any particular utility to attempting to expand the enchantments on the body with third, fourth and fifth magics or would the balance of benefit versus risk and cost be inadequate?
>>
No. 78369 ID: 34b2f2

>>78364
I think that's unlikely. We haven't seen any compelling evidence to support that notion, and in fact have more examples of the energies operating cooperatively than destructively.

Even if we take the things Deem's said at face value, they don't really point to an aggressive mechanical incompatibility. I think most of it is that she has strong personal grievances or philosophical differences.
>>
No. 78370 ID: 53ba34

>>78369
you mean other then the fact the seal that exploded when deem attempted to fix her heart was the same as the one on the church? as in, sky-power seal.
>>
No. 78371 ID: 828582

IDK about sky power seals or whatnot, but it might be that it's a more complex process to repair Deem's Dungeon Heart then simply ramming it back where it went.
Anyhow, what to talk to Merud about...Well, I'd say golem magic wouldn't be a bad idea-Deem seems more used to the idea of puppeteering golems through her own supply, as I presume it was done in the old days, whereas now mana batteries are used in an attempt to make completely autonomous golems that don't need the master-in a pursuit of the Fifth magics and so on.
I feel like we've been getting successfully side-tracked all over town and forgetting what we were originally doing in this quest, personally.
Can't decide if that's because of general being foolish or just the quest world is that awesome.
>>
No. 78372 ID: 34b2f2

>>78370
Yeah other than that. I wouldn't expect a mysterious seal of any persuasion to have acted any differently. It's quite possible that its specific nature contributed to the dramatic response, but it's far from conclusive, merely suggestive. Not a terribly strong suggestion either.
>>
No. 78379 ID: ce5883

>>78364
>>78369

Sky and earth are evidently opposites, and in many cases opposites can be simultaneously mutually destructive as much as they can be beneficially complimentary. I didn't expect to see that water is associated with the sky as it is typically categorized a heavier classical element--but probably has as much to do with the earth as it does the heavens given the water cycle. The co-mingling of sky and earth isn't that rare (though some may it is extraordinary regardless) as a similar kind of cooperation occurs in human bodies. They seem solid but are 75-78% water by mass.

Plus, there are always the origin myths where sky gods created the first people out of wet clay that are ubiquitous across all continents and cultures of the world. The cooperation of spirit and physical form have been an overarching theme that has set the tone for countless cosmologies, and is evidently so in this one. It's almost a given on virtually every mythos that Sky Father and Mother Earth have the on and off again 'love-hate' thing going on, though not necessarily in a personified relationship. We could try and divine in to the conceptual meta-physics and mechanisms available to such an exchange, but I'd rather not be the one start that conversation... it seems deduction serves me better in the social arena than induction.

}¦^[
>>
No. 78381 ID: 36c336

>>78372

Consider that Deem is a relic from a previous age. Modern magi, who could reasonably be expected to have general knowledge about dungeon hearts (since they need mana to do their jobs) don't even seem to know that dungeon hearts *can* be intelligent, and we have detected no signs of the existence of other, active, intelligent dungeons.
I think the only safe assumption would be that the noted scarcity of intelligent dungeons by itself is a sign that someone viewed them as a threat and eliminated them. We have no reason to believe whoever that was conveniently vanished since then. The ancestors of the people who are today the Dungeoneer's Guild and the Harrowers are likely candidates, which is scary considering what we see in this town. Therefore we need to hide, scout indirectly, fortify, and consider further espionage.
The other plausibly-sane alternative plan I can come up with is to openly seek the guidance and blessing of the Dungeoneers. I don't like that idea because it could easily be walking into the hands of the same folks who broke us the first time. Even in a best-case scenario they are too powerful for us to trust them, so it's better if they just never find us. So let's not talk to them.
>>
No. 78383 ID: 04b86a

>>78381
>the noted scarcity of intelligent dungeons by itself is a sign that someone viewed them as a threat and eliminated them
Actually, I got the impression that all other dungeon hearts are just cheap imitations of Deem's heart.
>>
No. 78384 ID: 34b2f2

>>78383
That was the first thing that jumped to my mind. It's also possible they've been magically lobotomized/made dormant. It's even possible that they actively participate in a conspiracy with the Dungeoneer's guild and the Harrowers to hide details about their true nature.

Multiple of those could be true, and others. There could be more dungeons today than there were back in Deem's day for all we know.

As for the sky power vs earth pulse thing, the impression I get isn't so much that they are violently opposed to one another, but that the environmental conditions that promote each are not ideal for the other. I'm sure it's more complicated than that.
>>
No. 78390 ID: 36c336

>>78383
>Actually, I got the impression that all other dungeon hearts are just cheap imitations of Deem's heart.

Yeah, that's what the hearsay we've gotten on the subject has said. For human purposes that's an improvement on intelligent dungeon hearts since they have full control of the monster spawning and resultant mana. In contrast, we would probably be viewed as either a problem or a target by anyone smart or observant enough to notice that a successful, intelligent dungeon is an obnoxious neighbour with a fat pile of loot. That's a poor negotiating position when pleading for your life.
This suggests two strategies for avoiding Harrower wrath: Hide where people never look, and convince them we're too valuable to annoy.
>>
No. 78395 ID: 097017

>>78390
Where do you hide a book? In a library. The best places to hide are in plain sight, though I'm not sure if that would affect deems plans in a desirable way. If we wanted to be really crafty and had the humility to bear it, we could hide among the the lifeless zombiehearts and pretend to be the same (after we get fixed). That way we might not be able to afford to have our friends close, but we can keep our enemies closer. Maybe we can have them pose as wanting to join the dungeoneer guild, and bring your orb and place it inconspicuously among the others post heart-op. We can observe their movements, even be a part of their activity. It's a dangerous gambit, but no more so than walking around naked and speaking freely about our nature with potential employees, even if it is behind closed doors. Large establishments like guilds tend to have an informant network that's large and very active. Who knows? Maybe someone we've met ist ein spion. Kallia seems like a shrewd individual, though she's shown good humor and willingness to help (a ruse or cover to make us comfortable?). That example is very very likely not the case, and I'm not saying go all McCarthy by being super paranoid and calling everybody Dungeonmmunist spies, but it's best to keep your wits about you and hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Perhaps despite our independent disposition and self-concerned agenda maybe this is our opportunity to free our enbondanged people from captivity? Dungeoneer Guild might have kidnapped and coerced a few intelligent hearts (who if functionally loyal would be a greater asset than one without mind or imagination, even regarding the risks involved) who've just been waiting for the right chance to strike back at their oppressive masters. Or perhaps the leader of the guild is infact a Dungeonheart who made a faustian pact with the powers that be to rid them and himself of his competition, and then hides behind the facade of a human run guild. Of course he would not permit anyone to examine and deconstruct him, so he needed test subjects like yourself.

Then again, this could all be complete bullhonkey from an overactive imagination.
>>
No. 78397 ID: 44d4aa

>>78395

nobody, protagonist especially has time for your hairbrained schemes and conspiracy theories, just stick to the plan.
>>
No. 78399 ID: 36c336

>>78395
Not enough information for that kind of conjecture and planning, but we do need to know more about the Dungeoneer guild.

To do list: Look up and work out the details for scrying and long-distance teleportation.
>>
No. 78400 ID: 34b2f2

>>78399
Oooor we could get a few books on the history of the guild, from authors with a variety of stances on it, and compare details with what Deem knows about the time before she ended up asleep in a cave for however long. Or just find someone knowledgeable to speak to.

Scrying does seem like the kind of thing our resident Alienist could explore, probably through dungeon structures. I wouldn't expect it to be terribly conclusive on major plot, however.
>>
No. 78409 ID: 36c336

>>78400

I was assuming that the socioeconomic and information-technology levels we're operating at are below mass-use of movable-type printing presses. This is an untested assumption which could easily be invalid. If it's valid that suggests things about possible trade goods when we set up a printing press.

As far as asking someone goes, I'm worried about the talent pool of anybody who would know know much about the Dungeoneer guild. They're likely to be one of those people who would rustle up a posse to do a dungeon-whacking if we were identified, or at least connected to them. Guilds control entire industries for their own benefits, and maintain private knowledge for that purpose. The facts of how the Dungeoneers are organized, what their goals are, what their history is and what they can do are almost certainly trade secrets.
>>
No. 78410 ID: 34b2f2

>>78409
The clothing we've seen would suggest industry at least on par with printing presses, and in either case: magic~. Not sure why a dungeon needs a printing press either.

The most likely candidate for information on the Dungeoneer guild would be current or past career adventurers, who are a varied enough bunch. The innskeeper might even be a good source, if we had decent questions to ask.
>>
No. 78411 ID: 53ba34

except the biggest info we need, the status of the dungeon hearts, is not something adventurers would know. the heart room is not someplace they wold ever be allowed to see.
>>
No. 78412 ID: 34b2f2

There's always rumors, but that's true, yes. General information, gossip and rumors on the Dungeoneer guild are a stepping stone to better sources. Not super relevant until after we've set up our dungeon, but then I expect to have more general knowledge to frame our search for answers by then anyway.
>>
No. 78413 ID: 36c336

>>78410

>Not sure why a dungeon needs a printing press either.

MONEY. Seriously, if we want to establish political and economic power sufficient to convince people they do not want to fuck with us we need to grow a couple industries. We would need to make trade partners that know they can't just steal what we do and who would be pissed if we were attacked. Starting up a printing industry seems like a worthwhile possibility for the brainstorming list when we get to that question later. A smelter, a refinery, and a metallurgical forge are other possibilities for the list that are more vulnerable to theft than books. Ideally we want something that's really hard for someone else to do that has to be custom-made for particular clients and can't identify us as a dungeon.

>>78412
A list of things we want to know:
-How do they make/obtain dungeon hearts;
-What do they know of intelligent dungeons;
-Everything they know about that magical seal and interacting with dungeon hearts;
-What can they do with dungeons and to detect dungeons;
-What tactics and force disposition does a harrower strike have;
-How do we effectively hide from them or convince them to leave us in peace;
-Where are they;
-Who are their enemies;
-What is their leadership and information flow like, and;
-What are their goals and policies.

I expect adventurers will generally know little or nothing about most of the above.
>>
No. 78416 ID: 097017

>>78413
Paper money is the worst thing to happen to the economy since people. The Romans tried it and afterward in some provinces it became a capital offense to suggest it again. The Chinese tried it and barely staved of a societal collapse.

Absolutely no bank notes. EVER.

Also the printing press is a beautiful thing. It changed literacy, the written medium and changed the world of communication, never are they to be underestimated. (Developing a papermill and developing lithographic technology to produce an magical offset printer would be a great asset.)

>>78409
>>78410
Clothing is implicative of looms, which were among the first fabrication devices before the press and saw a lot of use far before the notion was conceived; your approximate date range for using looms as a milestone to gauge the distance to the first press is well into the centuries.
>>
No. 78417 ID: 53ba34

no one suggested paper money. suggested the press as a way to earn regular gold via trading.
>>
No. 78419 ID: 097017

>>78417
oh.. er... seems you're right. Still, important to know.
>>
No. 78421 ID: 53ba34

besides, it's not that it's money, it's that it is gold. STATUES would be useful. as long as it's pure enough.
>>
No. 78427 ID: 7bbaae

>>78416
Correction: Paper money that's easy to counterfeit is the worst thing ever.
>>
No. 78428 ID: 097017

>>78427
It's not just counterfeitability, paper money has been and will be inherently unstable. The only reason the USD was worth chicken eggs in the past was because of the gold standard. People never realized it was taken off, and soon their children were never taught there had been a change in the first place. Politicians and bankers discontinued the reason 'States money was worth anything by getting a law passed after they sent everyone else off on vacation.

People then just assumed that paper money was as good as it was in the past because they never knew it actually represented a set value of gold mass. When asked they'd be like "well uh... you know, we're 'Murika! That's why our money's good!"

I'm telling you, we were better off when we were buying things with our own teeth.

Despite having lived in other places of the world for short periods of time I'm really not educated in the history in any other 'current' currency, so excuse me if my example doesn't apply to your place of residence. So yeah, let's not get off topic. Deem uses physical gold and that is good 'nuff for me.
>>
No. 78430 ID: 36c336

>>78416
>>78428
>Paper money is the worst thing to happen to the economy since people.
STFU n00b, lern supply & demand, LOLOLOLOL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
I'll agree that the goldbug nonsense is offtopic and drop it if you do: We're supposed to be talking about Dungeoneer Quest here.

Paper money is generally off the table: If people have city walls the size and stability of government is too low. Letters of credit is the outside limit I'd look at.
On the other hand, if we're really good at mining (plausible) we may singlehandedly cause inflation shocks by mining and supplying reference commodities like copper, gold, gems and such. This suggests the possibility of commodity speculation to increase our mining profits.

The person suggesting that some equivalent to a printing press may already be in operation has a point: Third-magic golems can stand in for mechanized production with sufficient process-expertise, and even if no particular printing presses exist a likely application of golem technology is automatic scribes. That implies we can learn a lot by watching the mana economy/Dungeoneers guild.
That's all speculation. A quick query about the market for books will tell us whether we're still on a scribe-production, scribe-plus, or printing-press production level for books. The fact that we know of two guilds, the city walls and the apparent absence of firearms (or magical equivalent) suggests we're below a printing-press level of economic development however.
>>
No. 78435 ID: 7bbaae

>>78428
That's a load of malarkey spread by people who want to manipulate the price of gold.

http://blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/2013/04/16/gold-and-international-reserve-currencies/

There's the real story.
>>
No. 78442 ID: 34b2f2

All this economics talk is a bit silly. Gold is used because it's a fantasy setting and the material possesses useful magical qualities. You're overthinking things a bit, anachronisms are present in virtually all fantasy settings, usually because the author doesn't want to fuss about with medieval economic standards. And this one is also a game setting so fun and playability take priority over historical accuracy which is only loosely relevant to a fantasy world with magic and abiogenesis of monsters from concentrations of precious metals in the first place.

From what I've gathered, Dungeon revenue primarily comes from a few sources. Stuff adventurers bring and lose during the Labyrinth Game(because of modern respawning conventions, this will almost always simply be gold), mana generated by the Labyrinth Game, mining operations, and monster harvesting. There's others, but those are the obvious assets and advantages we have.

I don't think a printing press operation takes advantage of our assets, considers the challenges some of them present, or is ideal considering our future dungeon site. The area around a dungeon is dangerous because of monster spawns, and mountainous terrain is ill-suited for mass transport. To even make books we would have to either import large quantities of paper or make our own, but I don't think that the mountain is well-suited to either. Mana could possibly be substituted for some of the material requirements, but I doubt at all efficiently. We'd be better off spending our mana on producing high-quality magical goods with the craftspeople we have at hand, especially when transportation is considered.

The other thing that confuses me is this: if there is mass-production of written works available in the world, then we're facing a number of challenges competitors aren't, with advantages that I don't think make up for them; if there isn't mass-production of written works available in the world... why would an old, out of touch, fogey like Deem have access to it? It's not the kind of prime secret of the universe that gets lost or sealed away.
>>
No. 78443 ID: 36c336

>>78435
Shh, this is questdis: You seem to be looking for meep.
Don't feed the off-topic troll.

A more productive question is where the dirt farmers are and what the government is like around here: It's kinda important to find out whose toes we may be stepping on politically by establishing a dungeon *other* than the Dungeoneer's guild. I'd presume we're working on either feudalism or plantation slavery but we have no information about that whatsoever.
>>
No. 78444 ID: 36c336

>>78442
The hypothetical print shop proposal was based on the assumption that we're pre-printing in economics/tech scale. Printing is not conceptually complicated once you've invented movable type, and the prerequisite technologies of carved stamps and wine/oil presses are millenia old.

I think it wouldn't be that hard to source materials even in the mountains unless we're at Himalayas altitude, but it's totally premature as a discussion. I was mainly pointing out that we really don't want people to know we're a dungeon and hiding that means making our money in ways that a dungeon wouldn't. You're right that transport is the number one problem if we're remote enough, and I shouldn't assume it away.
>>
No. 78451 ID: 34b2f2

>>78444
Hiding that we're a dungeon was never the plan and it's totally infeasible. Hiding that Deem is a dungeon was and is, but not dungeon-running in general. Other concerns aside, I don't think Deem's pride will let her not run a dungeon as a dungeon with adventurers and everything.

As a side note, the whole using out-of-quest knowledge to advance technology thing can get pretty tired.
>>
No. 78452 ID: 36c336

>>78451
Well how else am I supposed to start civil wars everywhere in the world?
>>
No. 78453 ID: 53ba34

depending on how the dungeoneers guild works then out-teching the enemy may be the only way to beat them.
imagine an machine gun with unbreakable bullets all engraved with a returning enchantment and the bullets just pass through systems that magically re-add the explosion and put back the bullet. and make the system magically keep cool and you can let loose an infinite barrage of fire.
>>
No. 78456 ID: 34b2f2

>>78453
See? It's stupid. That doesn't sound fun at all.
>>
No. 78458 ID: fd6ae9

I thought the basic plan was to build a profitable and functional dungeon in such a way that it was mutually beneficial for us and the town. The dungeon activity generates monsters, loot, and other resources gathered by adventurers and brought into the local economy, and attracts adventurers and other travelers who support the local service / tourism industry. The town supplies us with adventurers (and the adventurers with equipment and supplies), resurrections making adventurers a renewable resource, possible recruits and employees, and a economic engine that attracts and generates a supply of gold we can tap into (via joint ventures and investments, and what we can lure into entering the dungeon directly).

If we were going to do something silly like introducing a printing press that would be something we'd sponsor on the town-side on the equation, not do in house in the dungeon. (If we're foolishly committing the sin of ignoring what the setting has to work with and assuming there's no magical, or magical-technological equivalent already in existence, that is. They have semi-autonomous golems, for cripes sake. It's not too hard to make a clay scribe. Or to start parring the design down from a clay person to just the important writing and reading bits. Tada- you're on route to a half mechanical, half magical book producing device. Possibly resulting in a more traditional printing press if anyone then ever asks the question "but what if I want this to work without golems?").

We don't want to start wars. We're a dungeon, not a country. War isn't good for business, for us. It places us at risk of destruction, and diverts resources that would otherwise be spent (and harvested) in dungeon runs. Ideally, we want stability, and people with the disposable income and resources to risk running the dungeon, and for such attempts to happen regularly.

(The fact that there are forces out there who may try to destroy us is besides the point. We can't avoid war if it comes to us, but we shouldn't seek to foster it).

tl;dr- Abeo is completely right. >>78451 >>78456
>>
No. 78465 ID: 53ba34

except i never said anything about starting shit. this is for ENDING shit. we mount the thing in the heart room and blast the harrowers when they show up to kill us for whatever reason they could have. including "not being a mind slave" as a reason.
>>
No. 78466 ID: 88960e

>except i never said anything about starting shit
>>78452 did. Obviously the comments regarding starting wars were meant as a response to that.

And making up preposterous hypothetical endweapons again means ignoring what we may actually have to work with. We know far too little about what is available, or that we may face, to plan that effectively.
>>
No. 78467 ID: 36c336

>>78458
The way I was looking at it the fact that there are humans that run dungeons means we will never have stability: They're our competition, and the existence of Harrowers as common knowledge suggests that competition in dungeon-keeping isn't friendly.
>>
No. 78476 ID: 53ba34

Be still.

Forget your name and swallow your hatred.

It is kinder for you to sleep under the earth forever than to wake and remember pain.


ether it's lying, or whoever put on the seal thinks they were doing a kindness.
>>
No. 78478 ID: 34b2f2

>>78476
It seems likely it spared her from the Age of Calamity, so there's that at least. Not that I condone it per se. It occurs to me that we're really lucky the seal blocked Deem from repairing herself, or her whole heart would have been totally within its confines again and she probably would have fallen asleep.

The damage to her is actually super interesting now. It might have been an accident, but it could also be someone trying to help imprisoned dungeons, or someone with an agenda that requires thinking dungeons to be active in the world, possibly an anti-dungeon agenda.

Semi-related, but I could see either or both of the Dungeoneer Guild and the Harrowers being enemies or allies to us. At first glance it's tempting to cast the Harrowers as the bad guys, but it could be that their true goal is to prevent the abuse and ensure responsible stewardship of sleeping Dungeons. If contemporary Dungeons are those from the past sleeping, which we don't really know. Anyway, rambling, but there's lots going on we don't have a clear understanding of. Which is great.
>>
No. 78483 ID: 36c336

>>78476
Kindness for whom?
If the implications of that seal are that most dungeon hearts are sleeping and we uniquely have woken up because of a combination of accidental physical damage and being hoarded by a weak monster with gold... it could be that there is a god that hates us. In that case he or she is unable to destroy us because of a logistical or moral reason (more likely moral).
>>
No. 78484 ID: 34b2f2

>>78483
It could also mean that there's a god that likes/liked us on the 'enemy' side. The 'War in Heaven' Merud mentioned suggests there was a shift in policy among the higher powers and my gut feeling is it's related. Wish our knowledge of the cosmology wasn't so limited because it's hard to say but it sounds like the balance of power between the sun and moon shifted.

Hard to say who would be the theoretical "ally" between the two of them, if indeed it was either of them. Deem mentioned not liking a name for our slime that reminded her of the moon, but that doesn't give us enough for any kind of comparison. Her personal views of each probably wouldn't be conclusive either.
>>
No. 78486 ID: 36c336

>>78484
The sky-power sign does prominently have a crescent in it which could imply the moon, and the supposed increase of the prominence of the moon may have similar/related timing to the sealing. I agree this isn't conclusive, but instead yet another hypothesis to be tested.

Another hypothesis: We may be in the middle of a propaganda war here, centred on good/evil dualism. The 'heaven' backed resurrection fountains seems like supporting propaganda for casting sky as good and terrestrial (subterranean) as evil. Dungeons spawning monsters and their death-gamble labyrinth game doesn't help that.
If that is the case the position of the Dungeoneer guild is interesting.
>>
No. 78497 ID: 26f0fc

> proved wrong about contrversial position on economics
> being a troll maybe?

more like
> gatherinfo check passed

Wasn't trying to provoke a negative emotional response, but touching on the subject by taking a disputed position that was most likely to provide an informed response. It brings more information to the table and, while my ego and rep may suffer, the group as a whole benefits from the clarification and additional info. I've learned the method of being strategically wrong on the internet proves far more time and energy efficient+effective than researching something yourself or even asking for an informed opinion.

The real question is did I actually plan it all along or am I just good at covering my ass with logic? And, in the end, does it really matter?

>>78486
same thing happened when the babylonians took over the sumerians. Demonized thier gods and made myths that solidyfied the new regime. As for the circumstances of the 'happening', I think the facts will only surface from a painful and honest inventory of past events and a willingness to hurt for the truth. It's an ugly process, but it helps with emotional coping and healing while uncovering vital information.

(There are better ways to benefit a group than shitposting in its questdis.)
>>
No. 78519 ID: 36c336

>>78497
http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/meep/res/23975.html#25735
>>
No. 78526 ID: 53ba34

so dungeon structures. deem mentioned that her casting problems are mostly because the proper devices that normally handle this aren't built. how many do you think there are?
>>
No. 78531 ID: 34b2f2

In terms of structures period we know there are treasury vaults, farms, quarters for her minions, workshops, resurrection devices, the dungeon heart mounting, and that fancy forge she mentioned that I can recall.

There are likely structures allowing more advanced, larger scale, or efficient golemetry, reinforcement, enchantment, and earth magic. Access to fire and shadow magic through the right structures is a safe bet as well, and using those fancy secret fate-changing words of power properly may require construction of specialized dungeon structures. Or they may be required to make certain advanced dungeon structures.
>>
No. 78532 ID: 36c336

We don't have any information about that sadly, but I suspect that the real answer is, "As many as we want," because it seems like we, as a dungeon, have the ability to supplement our spell channels with additional structures.
The real question is how large those structures are and how limited their placement is.
>>
No. 78533 ID: 34b2f2

>>/quest/552342
Deem could be wrong, but if she's not I wouldn't be at all surprised at a sky-power analog to Deem that just isn't, strictly, a dungeon. I would most expect it to have the strongest affinity for water, being the most material of the sky affiliated powers. I doubt we'll get any confirmation one way or another any time soon.
>>
No. 78534 ID: 36c336

>>78533
I think that depends on how an 'air pulse' and a 'water pulse' works, I'd imagine. I reserve judgment on calling water a sky power however; oceans can be really deep. At some point I'd like to have an explanation of the magical elemental system these folks operate on, and some info on how that relates to the matter elemental system (if at all).
>>
No. 78536 ID: 34b2f2

>>78534
Well Deem called it one, for one. There's also the rain cycle with the raining and all the water in the air all the time. But mostly I imagine water is a sky element because of the moon.
>>
No. 78543 ID: 36c336

>>78536
>Well Deem called it one, for one.

Ref me please? I can't find it with ctrl+f using 'sky' 'element' and 'water' in either discussion or main thread.
>>
No. 78546 ID: 34b2f2

>>78543

Seems I had a bit of a brain fart, she doesn't say it explicitly but here's the post: >>78327

The grouping of the elements and general tone of the Earth Magic section suggests to me that fire is an earth element and water is a sky element.

>>/quest/551901 Confirms Deem can learn to use fire magic and while it's possible that she's listing only the elements she can use that might possibly assist in flying, it seems more like she's listing the elements she can access.

I think it's safe to say that fire is an earth-aligned element and the simple pairing of opposites puts water on the sky-side.
>>
No. 78547 ID: 36c336

>>78546
I did some more digging and stumbled across where you're probably getting the idea that water could be a sky power.
http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/514046.html#551098
It doesn't say anything that direct and explicit though, for all we know 'sky power' could actually be about divinity or the stuff above the clouds like the sun, stars and moon. It's also implied in the discussion of uses of earth magic you point at that water has no particular antagonism to earth, and Deem apparently has implemented running water as an amenity in the past.

We still need information on how water, fire, wind, shadow and light pulses work though, if they exist (which seems plausible). It may be that a dungeon heart is a focus for a genius locus that's underground and therefore heavily associated with earth aspect. Considering Deem's apparent past power with shadow and fire perhaps it has secondary associations with those elements too but nothing strong enough to show up as a talent under Merud's scanning. Rethinking that examination: Merud wasn't scanning the larger part of Deem's heart earlier, now was he? Perhaps there's more to learn from that.
It remains to be seen if there are hearts for other places, with accordingly different elements. Guessing from Deem's talk about a possible heart associated with that resurrection fountain that's a firm dunno so far.
>>
No. 78553 ID: 34b2f2

>>78547
Oh right, that bit.
>But this is the sky-power. I feel it here, the unpleasant tingle of it raining down from the heavens onto this place. Wind and light and water.
Seems pretty explicit to me.

The lack of antagonism doesn't really point to anything, since in the same bit Deem pointed out ways earth could contain lightning(wind) and light too. Earth is a lot more tolerant than she is. She also mentioned running lights as an amenity, I don't think that means she has light magic.

I'm not sure there are other 'pulses', and I'm not sure the earth-pulse is of the element of earth specifically, it seems to be more of the earth in general. Terrestrial rather than elemental, as weak as the distinction between the two might be.
>>
No. 78648 ID: 5f1fd5

>>78547
>>78553
Sounds like another teacher post is in order to clarify this conjecture.
>>
No. 78654 ID: 26e322

It seems clear to me - water isn't a sky power. It's part of both the earth and sky and acts as a conduit of both their powers. Rain channels sky power from above, and water seeping through the dirt channels earth power in the same way.

Come to think of it, it makes sense that something that combines sky and earth magic would use water as a mediator.

I wonder what place the element of fire has in regards to earth and sky...
>>
No. 78659 ID: 53ba34

>>78654
fire is probably unaffiliated energy.
>>
No. 78665 ID: 69a283

Each element probably has a different style of operation, in 'biology', war, sociality and magic. In Greek philosophy alone, we have plenty of examples of minds playing at understanding classical elements, but I'll put that discourse in the new /meep/ thread that's popped up. In short, we're dealing in the classical elements with aether split into light and shadow. A little more than the four we're used to, a little less than the eight of Taoism; Happy mediums, one could say, though "Earth, Wind & Fire (featuring Water at the harp)" is easier to remember.

It seems Light and Air are Sky-powered, guest-stars fire and water are neutral, and earth and shadow are a-Earth-Pulsing. Or fire is with EP and water is with SP strictly as Deem's posts might suggest. Still, there's the sun in the sky (good n' gracious great ball of fire) and the aquifer below (with various cultures equating water with earth as aquatic creatures were from the underworld/earth as the pre-Columbus South Americans beleived and Christians with baptism representing the burial of the body and the death of an old life, thus being 'born again' as a new person, Greeks claiming earthquakes were caused by Posideon etc.)

I think there are only two power sources and that water and fire may borrow from one or the other, but never both at once in one person... Just a theory mind you.
>>
No. 78666 ID: 53ba34

rememebr that when she first met merud deem tried a fire spell. meaning fire is something she can do without any special structures.
>>
No. 78711 ID: acfd7c

Can you make golems out of wood?
>>
No. 78713 ID: 53ba34

>>78711
the only rule seems to be that you can put the spell channels into it. so yes wood is a valid golem medium. cloth has threads that act as the spell channels. we saw them on deems body when she formed it, they are internal. so solids are easy to do. someone probably made a golem out of something weird, like water.
>>
No. 78745 ID: 1ce34b

It seems that there is much to gain from a wiki section describing the rules, mechanics and finer points of magic in this setting. We can keep track of things we know for certain and keep it separate from the potentially valuable but ultimately unreliable information produced in theorizing and guess work.
>>
No. 78766 ID: 379075

>>78745
Brevity is the sole of wit, and tgchan.org wiki access is privileged isn't it?
I'm not sure if we could make things brief enough to fit appropriately without being a whole-other TL;DR. If someone else gets started I'm willing to suggest things to take out (or shorter wordings) to keep it smaller though.
>>
No. 78828 ID: 1e6280
File 138856965694.png - (43.86KB , 1080x560 , dunegoneer_heights.png )
78828

>>>78745
>It seems that there is much to gain from a wiki section describing the rules, mechanics and finer points of magic in this setting. We can keep track of things we know for certain and keep it separate from the potentially valuable but ultimately unreliable information produced in theorizing and guess work.
For the moment, here is a height chart instead.
>>
No. 78834 ID: 379075

>>78828
Is Stargazer really taller than Moriko or he standing on tiptoe here to look taller?
>>
No. 78835 ID: 2aba9f

She, and in her case I wanna say she's longer, rather than taller...Hrrm. Hard to call it, really.
To me it wouldn't be Stargazer trying unless the creature was as straight as possible, as opposed to the minorly curvy/wavy. Like 'standing at attention', so to speak.
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No. 78841 ID: 379075
File 138862193585.png - (120.29KB , 1080x560 , deadjoke.png )
78841

>>78835
Brutal, absolutely brutal.
Here, have a trophy to commemorate your savage murder of an innocent joke, you big game hunter.
>>
No. 79440 ID: 379075

*applause*
Impressive update, I can see why that took a while.
>>
No. 79445 ID: 53ba34

i'm gonna guess there is some RPG elements and other then, like, a limb being lopped off, it's counted as HP rather then real damage. so we just go all out and stop when she gets too low.
>>
No. 79458 ID: 1669af

The last update was awesome. I think I re-read it 4-5 times before I stopped wallowing in happiness.

Still waiting for the dungeon management to proceed though. That should be fun.
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No. 79498 ID: 256d52
File 139160548191.png - (20.43KB , 450x600 , scarf_power.png )
79498

>Impressive update, I can see why that took a while.
Thank you! There weren't any good decision points until the duel, so I decided I might just take a little longer and power through it all at once.

>Still waiting for the dungeon management to proceed though. That should be fun.
Sorry, but your dungeon management is in another chapter! (But the first thread will be ending right after the duel with Moriko.)

I'm getting tempted to make this hair style a permanent option later.
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No. 79509 ID: 379075

>There weren't any good decision points until the duel, so I decided I might just take a little longer and power through it all at once.

It took a longer while to double-check and make sure that you weren't missing a decision point after each bit, it looks like. In the end you may even have stopped a bit short because Deem surely already has a plan for what to do once she caught Moriko's hammer with her scarf.
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No. 79543 ID: b0ef4c

>>79498
The new look is kind of awesome, yeah. Deem grew up a little!
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No. 80013 ID: cd963f

Wow, that was a great first chapter. Good writing and characterization, some really interesting characters, and a fun framing device for a different kind of game coming up.

How do you characterize a sentient dungeon? Oh, like this! Wow, that's surprisingly apt.

The action was great too. Lots of suggestions guiding but not controlling action. The Moriko/Deem dynamic should be interesting in the future (a sentient dungeon having an incredibly angsty crush on her champion? Freaky!), and I look forward to taunting both characters on it much in the future (if Deem doesn't just become the environment now).

Though, with the suggestions I'm seeing a trend towards reining in Deems fiery emotions. I for one think we should take them to the nth degree, making it the sore sticking point with which all the others work around Deem. Then again, this might be considered counter productive. I just think it's more fun when you have such an interesting character to jab at that character flaw to make it assert itself in all it's dominant glory.
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No. 80018 ID: 9ddf68

my question is will chapter 2 be in the same thread or are you going to make a new one?
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No. 80022 ID: 256d52
File 139402237884.png - (24.90KB , 500x650 , tower_of_power.png )
80022

>my question is will chapter 2 be in the same thread or are you going to make a new one?
It'll be a new thread.

There will be a very short break while I figure out how are mountains drawn?!

Next chapter will actually have dungeons in it, I promise.
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No. 80030 ID: 2e236a

A thought. Deem doesn't seem to know where new dungeon cores come from. that little side-view of the damaged portion of the core and the whole one make it look as though the shard has most of the basic anatomy of the full sphere.

Once a proper dungeon is established, Deem may heal, and the shard might be able to grow into a functional, stable dungeon core, itself.
>>
No. 80037 ID: 379075

>>80030
When a mommy dungeon and a daddy dungeon love each other very much....
Seriously, not finding the subject worth talking about and not knowing about it are two different things. Some folks, for whatever reason, may not want to discuss their sex lives with a plethora of perverted phantasms that are pontificating in their head.

If you're looking for the unresolved sexual tension you should've paid more attention to Merud and Kallia.
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No. 80042 ID: 53ba34

indeed, she doesn't WANT to talk about it. but it sounds like she does now how.
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No. 80156 ID: 6abcd2

Can we start the new thread out with some shorter, faster updates?
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No. 80234 ID: eee074

Curiosity: Apparently Deem's avatar-golem is substantially lifelike in order to leverage the advantages of being able to run on less input magic. What internal organs, instincts, reflexes, native thinking ability, appetites or other needs and features does she have as compared to a 'pet rock'?
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No. 80252 ID: a7868d

yeah, the hot and cold running temper, the sudden brooding, it's all speaking to something biologicals experience.
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No. 82709 ID: f08e35

I note that the words "miracle," "miracles," and "miraculous" occur a total of five times in the first thread. Four are in story updates. Of those, one is about where dungeon hearts come from, and the other three are about what the Far Ones are most interested in. There is probably some significance to this.

The fifth instance is a suggestion about indoor plumbing, and seems less likely to be related.
>>
No. 83479 ID: a2f9bc

Bit concerned about the plans to animate what is effectively a life-saving bandage while in a state of extreme emotional distress. Or communicate in ways we have no evidence Deem is capable of.
>>
No. 83481 ID: 53ba34

>>83479
it's called shotgun planning. you blast a large area of ideas and one may hit the right spot.
>>
No. 83482 ID: a2f9bc

>>83481
I suppose that's valid. More confused about the lines of thought than anything.
>>
No. 83483 ID: 874468

Brainstorming, aka "shotgun planning" often requires a filter-step before being used in quest like that. Some quest authors will vindictively take terrible suggestions and either use them directly or represent the character being distracted by them simply because they feel like it or they were just that annoyed with them. I'd suggest brainstorming not-a-plan-yet stuff in the questdis unless it's an appropriate occasion for throwing stuff against the wall with the quest character.
I might be wrong about this, but a time when the quest character is having their internal organs rearranged and their main body is about to drown is probably not the best time for such input in the main quest thread.
>>
No. 83487 ID: a2f9bc

It's not always vindictive. Deem is in a highly agitated state and her own 'filters' are probably less capable than usual. I could see her passing over a safe plan like using the golems for something that has immediate results like throwing around fire. She's scared, angry, disoriented.

It'd be perfectly fair for her to act rashly in this situation. It's just some of the plans are weird.
>>
No. 83518 ID: 874468

>It's not always vindictive.
Well yes and no, in a case like Deem in this quest the 'character' takes input and responds to it. However, the internet being what it is a quest often couldn't work without the author generously reinterpreting or ignoring many responses: Some of the plans are always 'weird.' That means that when an author decides to pay attention to moronic responses and act on them without that filter it can effectively be a temper-tantrum or collective reprisal against 'the readers' for not (somehow) shutting up the assholes and morons. That's where my characterization of it as vindictive comes from. There's probably a better description for it but I'm not reaching for my thesaurus today.

To be fair, I know why I usually don't want to run quests: I'm not generally interested in the responses and creativity of a random selection of forum nerds that tend to suggest that most quest characters get it on. Sometimes we come up with interesting, insightful, creative and intelligent responses, but panning for gold in the muck is dirty at best. Some months I just don't want to bother with TGChan at all.
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No. 83579 ID: 256d52
File 140534906571.png - (11.28KB , 600x400 , fashion_level_expert.png )
83579

Slightly out there ideas are very useful for introducing new information.

There were very good ideas but, well, this is Deem we're talking about. She's got a remarkable capacity for screwing things up if given the opportunity.
>>
No. 83582 ID: 1f8505

>>83579

Sweater~
>>
No. 83597 ID: 874468

>>83579
How the heck does someone that prone to self-sabotage manage to become a leading dungeon? Were all the others even more insane and/or incompetent?
>>
No. 83603 ID: 53ba34

>>83597
she is sorta suffering from.... a rather large lobotomy. only the shard is awake, the rest of the heart is asleep so she can only SORTA control it.
>>
No. 83604 ID: c9aef5

Even if that's not the case, I imagine that it's a rather massive worry on her mind, even when she's not actively paying attention to it, sooo once it's all connected? I imagine she'll be much more capable/competent.
Though she probably is also suffering from a bit of 'living is overrated/ascended device' syndrome-she's not USED to a 'self' that's a person, rather, she's more of a living location, normally.
>>
No. 83623 ID: fbd3fd

>>83597
>How the heck does someone that prone to self-sabotage manage to become a leading dungeon?

Well, the whole point was to attract adventurers, right? And to do that you'd want to give them the idea they could win. Filling herself with secret shortcut passages, weapons that could be picked up and used by visitors, leaving keys to locked doors somewhere outside that door so that they can be opened after killing a boss or solving a puzzle... all beneficial if you're a dungeon. Being perfectly locked up and inaccessible would mean that no-one would come to try their luck.

So a certain level of subconscious 'well I can't let myself win TOO easily' might be an actual thing.
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No. 83625 ID: 22d852

I would think a good deal of her impulsiveness is due to her current situation. Her injury has left her emotionally vulnerable, she'd got holes in her memory, she's missing or lost a lot of filters or caution that might hold her back, and she's still got a massive ego and the power to back it up. All in all, it makes sense that it would leave her volatile.

>just control a golem
Golem-use or creation is coming up in a lot of the suggestions, but I can't help but think Deem's not in any condition to do golemtry. Having her heart compromised seems to have completely disrupted her fine control of all her golems, main body included.

>For the record, I interpret this as being a situation (from Deem's perspective) most closely analogous to rape. I feel that similar tact and carefulness should be observed in addressing the subject, especially in regards to who's at fault, or "this wouldn't have happened if".
Yeah. You're not the only one getting that rather ugly vibe, here.
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No. 83863 ID: 256d52
File 140584618674.png - (16.72KB , 600x500 , zoom.png )
83863

>>83597
>How the heck does someone that prone to self-sabotage manage to become a leading dungeon? Were all the others even more insane and/or incompetent?
That is an interesting question, isn't it? One that it might be worth asking Deem.

I should maybe point out that she did run a boss fight against Moriko without a single hitch.

And it's always worth remembering: E rank Luck!

This was an unused panel from a few updates ago, since I decided it was better to fit Hin in the shot.

I swear the silly faces is the most rewarding part of all this.
>>
No. 83864 ID: a2f9bc

I doubt Deem's gonna respond to reason right now. She'll have to be tricked into showing restraint.
>>
No. 83866 ID: 2f4b71

>I swear the silly faces is the most rewarding part of all this.
The faces are great. Please continue faces.
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No. 83870 ID: 874468

>>83863
I see your silly faces and raise you a giant, blue catgirl.
http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/565839.html#584862
>>
No. 83882 ID: a2f9bc

Also, I don't think blood magic is much of a thing. Deem's broken heart "bleeds" raw mana in liquidy form, but that is not indicative of the form of magic she is using, rather only that she's using more than she can control in her current state.

I think the reason for the shift in her demeanor is hinted at when she says
>Tap, tap, tap. Each beat of her pulse is like a tiny hammer blow. As though a web of cracks is spreading through me, fracturing at each strike. Flushes of heat and chill rock me and something rises up from deep inside of me. Something insatiable.
It's possible her seal is designed to reinforce with exposure to the Earth Pulse and when exposed to something else, the seal weakens, letting out the old Deem.
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No. 83886 ID: 2fd516

>>83882
It was specifically Hin's heartbeat, though. Instead of simply being separated from the Earth Pulse, she's exposed to whatever Hin's pulse represents, and that's affecting Deem somehow.
>>
No. 83888 ID: a2f9bc

>>83886
We know that life functions are involved in mana respiration/production. Deem's golem body breathes, for example. I believe it was even said that physical activity can stimulate mana recuperation. Mana function seems to be pretty closely tied to the corporeal in this setting.

I think it's a combination of being separated from the Earth Pulse and being aggravated by the presence of an individual's mana flow. Hin's ancestry might make her mana especially disruptive, but I don't think we know if ogres have an elemental leaning or not.
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No. 83891 ID: 2fd516

>>83888
Isn't mana respiration similar to the Earth Pulse, then? It's literally a pulse that generates mana. One could call it blood magic, even if it's not really something you can use directly.
>>
No. 83894 ID: a2f9bc

>>83891
I guess you could, but I'm pretty sure people generate mana by breathing, eating, and sleeping too. It's more like... life magic. Or just magic, since the distinction seems pretty narrow in this setting.

I'm not sure if the mana is being generated or simply moved around by the action of the circulatory system either. Probably both.
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No. 83930 ID: 874468

>I'm not sure if the mana is being generated or simply moved around by the action of the circulatory system either. Probably both.
I refer you to the concept of electricity: It IS the momvement of electrons.
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No. 84199 ID: 256d52
File 140647851242.png - (33.66KB , 750x600 , a_conspiracy2.png )
84199

>>83866
>The faces are great. Please continue faces.
I'll try.

>>83870
>I see your silly faces and raise you a giant, blue catgirl.
What do you think this is, an Academy Award winning film by James Cameron?!

>I'm not sure if the mana is being generated or simply moved around by the action of the circulatory system either. Probably both.
The basic idea is mana requires movement and connection with the world outside. The earth pulse is simply an extraordinarily powerful source of mana that can be tapped into by using gold.

This little picture was because I was considering showing that Deem doesn't have normal vision from her Heart but she's supposed to have good perception of her immediate area. I'll probably use something similar for the edge of her sight range.
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No. 84329 ID: 89b2a2

How are curses different from normal enchantments? And what can Deem actually do with them?

As for designing the dungeon I do have a basic concept, which I will have to work on.
>>
No. 84341 ID: 53ba34

>>84329
remember, ITQ Deem practically stated her fall fro being one of the top dungeons was stagnation. adventurers eventually knew all the tricks of her dragon and so were able to beat it. we need something that can change up enough to never grow stale.
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No. 84356 ID: a2f9bc

We have no evidence that Deem's fall was in any way linked or correlated with the fall of her rather impressive dragon.

Effort during the set-up stage is probably best focused towards simply getting things up and running. At least enough we don't debate endlessly over super modular dungeon designs we're nowhere near actually ready to implement anyway.
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No. 84412 ID: 53ba34

>>84356
i sad fall from top dungeon, as in, being the hardest, max level raid groups only dungeon. because after the loss her dragon just didn't put as much effort into the battles anymore.
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No. 84484 ID: ccd544

what's all this about deem's dragon falling?
Did i miss a quest thread, or was this in IRC?
>>
No. 84487 ID: 53ba34

>>84484
'inside the quest' thread.
>>
No. 84637 ID: 761017

>>84487
i read it, couldn't find it.
>>
No. 84641 ID: 4b571b

>what's all this about deem's dragon falling?
>couldn't find it [Inside the Quest]
Here: >>80117

Also, there are links to all of the quest's itq posts on the wiki page. Sometimes it's easier to go through those then to try and search the thread (or threads) yourself.
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No. 84653 ID: 256d52
File 140802333312.png - (9.11KB , 480x300 , mimic_rejected_concept.png )
84653

>Remember, ITQ Deem practically stated her fall from being one of the top dungeons was stagnation. Adventurers eventually knew all the tricks of her dragon and so were able to beat it.
>What's all this about Deem's dragon falling?
>Did I miss a quest thread, or was this in IRC?
I'll comment that I've been trying to follow the advice that the information presented in the quest itself should be all that's needed to make informed decisions about things.

This is, of course, slightly complicated by the fact Deem sometimes misses details or doesn't fully explain herself but that's what asking questions is for.

The discussion thread and ITQ answers are intended to be bonus information, or previews of something that hasn't been covered yet.
>>
No. 84751 ID: a2f9bc

>>84653
Would the mimic have also been a cute girl like the slime ended up as? For some reason I just assumed so, but now I am curious.
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No. 84755 ID: 256d52
File 140836640169.jpg - (79.46KB , 629x564 , mimic_girl.jpg )
84755

>Would the mimic have also been a cute girl like the slime ended up as? For some reason I just assumed so, but now I am curious.
I did briefly consider it as I have seen some designs I really liked such as pic related, but in the end I decided to go with a more traditional mimic.

Besides, Larro has that pretty sewn up!

There's a few questions I forgot about answering and so that means...
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No. 84756 ID: 256d52
File 140836682026.png - (26.14KB , 700x500 , magic_102.png )
84756

Pay attention, as class has started.

>I have a question, why did you manifest glasses if your eyes are made entirely out of magic?
For the look of the thing.

>Can reinforcement improve magical abilities as well as physical ones?
Reinforcement is difficult when applied to less physical things. It's easy to understand how you might make something stronger or tougher, but how can you make someone more intelligent, more willful or more skilled? The simplest application is acceleration - you might make someone think faster or enhance some of their spell channels to process mana faster. Such a thing wouldn't be a good idea in my case. Reinforcement does put a strain on the recipient and my channels are already unstable.

It is possible to directly reinforce someone's spell casting capacity but unless you're planning some sort of permanent enhancement, most of the time it is better to use an enchantment and add specialised high efficiency channels directly.

>If so, is that how magic staffs and such work?
Magic staffs have embedded spell channels wrought by enchantment. A magus still needs to construct the last portions of a spell to cast it. A spell focus such as a staff has portions of some types of spells included to simplify casting and improve power.

>Is it viable to use enchantments to give our boss form a ranged attack like eye beams or a volley of conjured stone shards?
Yes, such things are essentially grafting any necessary physical alterations and a high efficiency spell channel to the recipient.

>Miss Deem, it seems that your current golem-body operates almost entirely on first and second magics. Is this true?
Almost. I also use the Fourth Magic. It's right there in my scan:

Golem Corpus: Deem's body is an amalgam of clay and stone animated by her magic. This makes her difficult to injure and even her bare hands are effective weapons. She's internalised an incomplete form of golemetry's Fourth Magic, the capacity to connect to the world, which allows her limited mana respiration. This reduces the energy required to sustain her body to almost zero when she's inactive.

>Also, is there any particular utility to attempting to expand the enchantments on the body with third, fourth and fifth magics or would the balance of benefit versus risk and cost be inadequate?
This body is not alive. It will not develop by itself. If it is to become any stronger, I will need to modify it. The Fourth Magic is the most immediately useful, as it would bring it closer to a living state and improve my spell casting. I'm uncertain of what the Third Magic, motive, might achieve. Instinct, perhaps? It could potentially improve my Heart fragment's integration. The Fifth Magic, thought, would mostly be counter-productive as it would interfere with my control.

>How are curses different from normal enchantments?
Curses are related to both reinforcement and enchantment, but the key difference is that they do not require any compatibility with their victims. They are barbed constructions made to sink into their victims body and souls irretrievably, causing worse damage if not carefully removed.

The art of cursing originated from frustrated desire. A greedy wish to have something, no matter what distortion it may cause to the world. It takes no great skill to create a curse. Wanting something is enough. Bitter hatred or a heedless, devouring kind of love.

Of course, once this principle is understood, it is easy enough to learn to reproduce. The power to weaken one's enemies is very valuable. There's no surprise it is widely practiced. It might lack the intensity of something that is truly heartfelt, but technique can compensate for this.

Skill in reinforcement, enchantment and curses is complementary. Knowledge of reinforcement and enchantment allows more sophisticated curses, while knowledge of curses allows a better understanding of how to integrate a spell into someone with only minimal damage, reducing the compatibility requirements for enchantment and reinforcement.

>And what can Deem actually do with them?
I could hate someone to death? An untrained curse typically harms the victim, as the darker emotions are more suited to summoning the sort of the monomaniacal intensity an curse needs to be cast without any magical knowledge. A curse may even take on physical form to hunt its victim. A vengeful ghost is often a curse.

The fact that a curse needs no compatibility with its intended target is why, unlike reinforcement, it can weaken them. The most basic ones simply cause bad luck, weakness or madness, but with skill more nuanced applications are possible. The effects of a curse can even be beneficial but this strength is tainted. A curse's infliction causes damage and it stands in opposition to the true state of the afflicted. By way of an example, were-creatures are the result of a powerful and ancient curse.
>>
No. 84757 ID: e607cd

>>84755
Awww, but we always need more mimic girls for Chest Day
>>
No. 84758 ID: 53ba34

do you have the skill to extract curses? like say, we manage to capture some kind of were-beast, could you pull the were out of them without killing them? perhaps with some kind of dungeon structure's help?
>>
No. 84760 ID: b651f5

What kind of damage does an improperly removed curse do, and is it possible to make a self-removing curse to cause that damage automatically?
>>
No. 84771 ID: 89b2a2

>>84756
I wonder if we can make a perpetual motion machine by cursing a skeleton to life and then enchanting it to have helicopter arms.

Or something.
>>
No. 84805 ID: 761017

>>84771
*thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwi
p**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip**thwip*
>>
No. 84809 ID: 256d52
File 140862970027.png - (18.55KB , 480x600 , magic_102_extra.png )
84809

>So you have the skill to extract curses? like say, we manage to capture some kind of were-beast, could you pull the were out of them without killing them? perhaps with some kind of dungeon structure's help?
Yes. I would need structures to do so, one to remove the curse and one to store it in something. Not killing them in the process is harder.

>What kind of damage does an improperly removed curse do, and is it possible to make a self-removing curse to cause that damage automatically?
That would depend on the nature and longevity of the curse. Typically a shorter but more intense version of it, or lingering permanent damage. For your second question, think of a broadhead arrow - is it possible to design one that comes out by itself that's still much use as an arrow?

>I wonder if we can make a perpetual motion machine by cursing a skeleton to life and then enchanting it to have helicopter arms.
That is nothing like how anything works.
>>
No. 84814 ID: 0ee153

>>84809
Yes to both. Enhance a broadhead arrow with a curse. Have the curse force the target to pull out the arrow and stab itself again. Repeat.
>>
No. 84815 ID: 720952

>For your second question, think of a broadhead arrow - is it possible to design one that comes out by itself that's still much use as an arrow?

Well, if you made it heavier, shored it up, made the shaft really smooth and redesigned the fletching so it'd either come off easily on impact or be able to pass through, you could make an arrow that would punch through all the way and come out by itself on the other side.

So... instead of making a curse that could pull itself out, what if you front-loaded it so that it destabilized and tore itself off? Maybe by giving it too much power to be restrained by its own ability to 'stick' to its target?
>>
No. 84816 ID: a2f9bc

That doesn't sound like how anything works either.

For one, it sounds like "enhance x with a curse" is a contradiction of terms because curses don't enhance things. They seem defined by just the opposite.

I'm curious whether curses can be transmitted via objects though. There's some ambiguity between, say, a necklace that curses the bearer with bad luck and a necklace that is cursed to give the bearer bad luck. The distinction is pretty important from a mechanical perspective though. The former doesn't seem like something I'd expect under the system as Deem has described it.
>>
No. 84819 ID: 53ba34

>>84816
what no, you can make enhancing curses, they are just a double edged sword. such as, were-wolf curse could have started as someone trying to give them the power of a wolf, but it refused to stick as a enchantment, so they used a curse to FORCE it to stick.
>>
No. 84820 ID: dde2af

>simply cause bad luck
o-oh.
err, hypothetically, how would one find out if one is cursed?
>>
No. 84958 ID: 697427

> For your second question, think of a broadhead arrow - is it possible to design one that comes out by itself that's still much use as an arrow?

A 'frog crotch' arrow inflicts the same sort of tearing on impact that a broadhead tends to inflict during inexpert extraction. Downside is it shatters rather than penetrating armor, but if your allies have good armor and you're trying to chew up some bare-chested barbarians at close range that turns into an asset.
>>
No. 87265 ID: a2f9bc

I'm concerned by the haste with which people are rushing to excuse Hin's actions with Deem's decision to keep her nature private.

It's definitely true that the circumstances created by Deem's choice lead to the events that occurred, but to categorize it as 'foolish', as some claim it, can only be correct if Deem had any reasonable expectation that veiling her nature would cause risk or harm to anyone, which I would argue against, especially in the short term.

There was enough information available, and unavailable, to conclude that being careless with her identity was more dangerous than otherwise. Deem's secrecy and nature both presented no known direct threat to anyone in her group, and therefore she had every right to say as much or as little as she pleased. I think it is a stretch to claim Deem's reticence as anything more than unfortunate given following events; she certainly bears no moral responsibility for the tampering with her heart.

No, Hin is an ostensibly responsible adult and she can shoulder the burden of her own failures, as Deem must for those she is actually accountable for. The use of Alkaline, for instance. Hin messed up, she erred, she was wrong, but that doesn't mean our options are crucify her or baptise her in apologies. She can be wrong and forgiven, simple as that.

Taking on her sins is bad leadership, bad precedent, unproductive, and inauthentic.
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No. 87267 ID: 256d52
File 141734439210.png - (33.16KB , 750x520 , deem_alkaline_compare.png )
87267

Since I forgot to mention it at the time, here is a thing.

Deem has a powerful affinity for furniture!
>>
No. 87274 ID: ec2e47

>>87267
You know, furniture based golems is a trap I don't think I have seen before. Chests or barrels yes, but not the table next to the chest...
>>
No. 87328 ID: bfdaf0

I was wondering, about Reisarf's "curse of formlessness" spell: How long does its normal effect last? How long does its *spectacular* effect last?
>>
No. 87360 ID: 256d52

>>87328
To give a better answer than just 'It depends!', a minute or two normally and several minutes for super effective. If it's used more than once the effect and duration stacks.
>>
No. 87373 ID: 32b1b0

>>87360
Thanks!
>>
No. 87849 ID: 5fcdcc

Would replacing the clay plug in the Heart with gold be a good idea?
>>
No. 87851 ID: b00646

That would be like pouring gold over a circuit, all the signals would be crossed and shit hits the fan
>>
No. 87855 ID: 5fcdcc

We've seen that concentrated mana becomes a pseudoliquid, can further concentration cause it to crystalize into a solid? Is the Dungeon Heart made of crystalized manna?
>>
No. 89450 ID: 1bb359

When's dungeoneer proper coming back online? Does Bloom have to run its course first?
>>
No. 89490 ID: 256d52

>>87849
Clay had the advantage that it is porous so the leaked mana slowly percolates out. That mana saturated clay should probably be changed out every so often.

Pouring gold or something else impermeable in there would could cause, uh, let's call it a pressure build up.

That would be bad.

On the bright side, the gold might turn into chrysadamant!

>>87855
It could happen but that would require an absurd amount of mana. Raw mana forms in a liquid like that because Deem's surroundings can't hold anywhere near as much mana as her Heart can.

A Heart grows by accumulating mana but it's not just crystallised mana, no.

>>89450
When I am less disorganised.

Bloom and the joke thread have the unfair advantage that they have a much simpler update structure.
>>
No. 89605 ID: 34bbab

HEY GUYSH

maybe the girl whose bones we found was the one who ordered our outfit but had to run away and died before she picked it up. Intrigue!
>>
No. 89648 ID: 3d1c54

Questions for next class: Mana. What is it? Is it like fat, a compound that stores energy, or is it more like nanobots that alter the properties of what ever you're magic-zing at the sub-somthingucle level? either way, what's it made of? Is there a basic unit of mana?

Earth Pulse: is it measured in BpM? It's a source of mana. Does it attracts and/or condenses mana via gold and action or spontaneously produces it? Does this action have to be exclusively violent or just rigorous? Does gold and other noble metals have some sort of managnatism or mana conductivity?

I assume that the following are factors in determining the strength and frequency of the pulse, as well as the volume of mana produced:

- amount of compatible/sympathetic material (gold, gems etc.)
- the level of compatibility of the material (presumably gold would have a higher level or rating than silver)
- the quality/purity of said material
- the average amount of pulse conductive activity within a given space
- the total amount of space with pulse conductive activity
- The size and/capacity of the mana conduits
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No. 89991 ID: 256d52
File 142795075497.png - (7.62KB , 316x339 , deem_afd.png )
89991

I've been thinking about switching to a faster, hand drawn style.
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No. 89995 ID: 8f7720

>>89991
Beautiful.
>>
No. 90007 ID: 8d46da

>>89450
>>89490
>>89991
Grapevine says your done with Dungeoneer. Is it true, or another belated April fools?
>>
No. 90008 ID: 946a53

>>89991
i am in love
>>
No. 90048 ID: ad7bba

When Alkaline starts popping out baby slimes, Deem will get teased for being a grandmother.

That is all.
>>
No. 90430 ID: 550270

>>89648
Let me take a stab at that problem,I can attempt to organize a bit of it. It wont be canon, but hopefully it'll be consistent with what we know and make enough sense to be acceptable.

We have to make a number of assumptions before answering these question.First, let's assume that there is an irreducible particle of mana that can be measured and counted. Let's call it a manum. Let's represent mana as an n with a long right leg, Ƞ. (mostly because I'm pretty sure it hasn't represented anything else since it was depreciated from Lakota phonetics.) Mana-pulse, therefore, may be defined as the quantity of mana is produced in a finite space of time or the time it takes to produce a single manum. Mana-pulse, then, would be PȠ . If T were time, then our definition of mana-pulse would be formulated as:

PȠ = Ƞ / T

But that only expresses how mana-pulse can be measured, not how it's determined. As you suggested, we know that gems, noble metals and other rare earths accelerate earth pulse depending on their quality. The same can be said of physical activity and possibly the intangible variable of ambition, willpower or desire. This implies the aforementioned five values; three for describing the mineral component and two for the activity.

V– for the value of the material
Q– for the quality or refinement of the material
M– for the amount (mass) of the material

E – for the energy expended in qualifying activity
Ð – for emotional drive involved

V represents the worth of the material, both on the market and as part of a magical system. The more it's worth, the smaller the number. Platinum .5, Gold 1, Copper 2 etc. Gems vary. Since magical materials are addressed by Q, they will not factor in here.

Q indicates the the purity of the material in parts per hundred. Worthless dross would be 0, 75% purity .75, and perfectly undiluted material would be 1 (because screw the fineness system). Anything above 100% represents magical materials, such as adamantium or orichalcum. 1.5 or 150% would indicate a half mundane half magical alloy, and 2 or 200% is pure enhanced material. (Please, no inquiries after the magical properties or genetic purity of people of african descent. I'm not a rapper and this isn't Song of the South)

M should be self explanatory, measured in grams.
E should likewise be simple to understand. Measured in joules.

Ð modifies E. Where there is no emotional drive (were deem to be assaulted by constructs or golems from a rival faction) E is reduced. Where there is an abundance of passion, E is augmented. Ð can represent .5, 1.5 and any value between. Ð is measured in demes.

So the formula I propose for determining the mana-pulse is as follows:

PȠ = ÐE (MQ/V)

And for evaluating the average mana-pulse in a cubic metre within specific volume of space, assuming uniform diffusion:

PȠ = (ÐE/m3)(MQ/V)

Not even going to approach determining rate of flow or pressure or anything else regarding fluid dynamics; better to let sleeping dragons lie.
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No. 93007 ID: ebcefd
File 143664975057.jpg - (33.85KB , 800x500 , DungeonDiagram1.jpg )
93007

Basic dungeon layout:
This uses minimal digging, though it does assume we can have big gate-opening buttons or levers (which seems like the sort of thing we would have).
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No. 93008 ID: ebcefd
File 143664982990.jpg - (33.20KB , 800x500 , DungeonDiagram1_5.jpg )
93008

Basic dungeon layout alternate:
No buttons needed and more corridor space for traps, but requires a significant amount of digging.
>>
No. 93009 ID: 7ee2dc

>>93007
>>93008

Looks like there's a load of valuable artifacts to be dug out, there.
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No. 93010 ID: 0fc976

Is there a specific point where monsters spawn? If so, we should set it under the water, so they emerge from the pool and look awesome.

The entrance could have a golem incorporated into it as a doorman, like a security camera. We get a general sense of what's in our dungeon already, but a set of eyes at the door could serve as a better analysis, security camera, and decoration all in one.

I do like that button/gate design, but I think we should rush to get a barebones dungeon set up ASAP we can change later and this would take too long. Also, that branch should probably connect to the button area rather than the same hallway as the boss room eventually, unless we block off the hallway when it's built and make it part of the path.
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No. 93011 ID: bd8b82

you guys are missing a heart room. the heart and treasury need to be underground but also adventurers cannot get into it.

the underwater area will turn into damp area when the water is mostly drained, making it great for all those slimes we will be getting.
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No. 93012 ID: ebcefd

>>93011
I thought the heart chamber was also the treasury. If that is not the case then our super-bare-bones dungeon should have the heart in the cave-in room behind a seal and the boss room be an expansion of the current chest loction.
>>
No. 93014 ID: bd8b82

>>93012
the heart and treasury can be in the same room, sure, but the boss room cannot be the treasury.
>>
No. 93015 ID: b19c84

>>93014
Hello! Yes it can. It's just high risk until a sealed off treasury can be made because if you lose once you can lose everything. That is all.
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No. 93016 ID: aef4c1

How are dungeons usually lit?
We could perhaps disguise the Dungeon Heart, hiding it in a lamp structure, and putting in lamps elsewhere that incorporate similar-looking crystals. Then it would be perceived as background decoration, ignored unless the adventurers are of the take-the-nailed-down-stuff-too persuasion.
Assuming it's not absurdly obvious in mage-o-vision, of course.
>>
No. 93018 ID: bd8b82

>>93016
supposedly hearts get a LOT bigger once they are running on all cylinders.
>>
No. 93030 ID: e114bc

>>93018
Wait... wouldn't that mean the fragment in Deem's golem would get bigger too?
>>
No. 93039 ID: ab7529

>>93030
Golem-Deem gets all anime, has to walk around with a giant spear of crystal sticking through her.
>>
No. 93043 ID: 2f4b71

>>93030
>Enhance Crystals
>>
No. 93067 ID: d4a543

I like the button/gate concept but I think it should be turned around. Dig out the collapsed area incrementally, adding successive puzzles with incorrect answers activating deadfall traps courtesy of the naturally unstable ceiling. Solving the final puzzle gives you a temporary water breathing reinforcement, and points the way to treasure down the other branch.

Heart chamber and treasury are combined, but if somebody takes too long fiddling with the chest or gets too greedy, reinforcement wears off and they drown on the way back. Possible tentacle ambush concealed in the silt just in case some adventurer tries to clean you out and happens to be drown-proof.

Passage to the valley is sealed off for living quarters, workshops, and respawn point, so work on expanding upward can proceed without interruption by adventurers.
>>
No. 93576 ID: 13ff66

The Qualities of a Dungeon

Commerce: A place high in commerce sees more gold move through it and settle there. The highest in commerce is a ideal for gathering gold, rare items and other valuables.

Blood Rite: A place high in blood rite involves violent activity pleasing to the under-worldly powers. The strongest in blood rite is endlessly aflame with activity and the very air is constantly charged and pumping with power, an endless stream of challengers testing might and wit at the risk of life and limb. The weakest in blood rite are static, stagnant places that dull the senses and drain the will to fight. Ideal for producing mana-pulse.

Legitimacy: A place high in legitimacy is in good standing with the surrounding people, institutions and polities. The most legitimate is often a pillar of the community that people have come to depend on and cannot operate well without, the least legitimate considered a burden or threat to the surrounding area and will suffer attempts at it's destruction. High Legitimacy is ideal for long-term sustainability.

Security: explains itself and I'm getting tired.

Can y'all think of any else?
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No. 93580 ID: bd8b82

>>93576
each of the first three actually would improve the others. a place of challenge invites strong warriors with their loads of loot and cash. this promotes commerce which also goes to the nearby town where the challengers rest, stock and celebrate. this promotes the legitimacy as the town gathers others besides the challengers. having a support network in the town then makes a dungeon look more attractive to warriors due to people feeling they have a safety net nearby in the town.
>>
No. 93588 ID: 2a7417

Given their ability to generate theoretically infinite amounts of precious metals from adventurers' activities, do you think dungeoneers have to deal with real life gold farmers? Perhaps they trade common currency for something less tangible, like labor, or a contract for your soul...

>having a captcha for your dungeon
>>
No. 93607 ID: 13ff66

>>93580
> each of the first three actually would improve the others.
I disagree, more strongly on some points than others.

> a place of challenge invites strong warriors with their loads of loot and cash.
I doubt an experienced dungeon crawler would carry more gold than required for a fountain Resurrection; he's looted enough dead bodies to know not to carry his life savings. Still, a valid point.

> this promotes commerce which also goes to the nearby town where the challengers rest, stock and celebrate.
True, but Deem is not the town, therefore she does not benefit from it as a 'dungeon' quality. Additionally, assuming dungeon-crawling is this person's primary source of income, that means they are spending treasure and gold looted from our dungeon.

> this promotes the legitimacy as the town gathers others besides the challengers. having a support network in the town then makes a dungeon look more attractive to warriors due to people feeling they have a safety net nearby in the town.
If this sense of security convinces young, poor, starry eyed men to trot off to the dungeon who do not come back, is it still good for our legitimacy? After these events repeat themselves a few dozen times you have a large group of angry widows and parents. +Bloodrite, -Legitimacy
>>
No. 93608 ID: ab7529

>>93607
What do you mean Deem is not the town? That's not thinking very big. If we invest in (or own) businesses in town, we'll make money off of them.

The dungeon attracts traveling adventurers, who spend bring in and gold in town, and bring spoils and raw materials from the dungeon back to town. The dungeon produces resources naturally, it harvests income from fallen adventures, and if it's smart, invests in the town to bleed gold from it as it grows. The town makes money supplying adventurers, and reselling / processing the materials harvested from the dungeon, and trades / pays gold to the dungeon for stuff it wants that's not easily harvested by adventures or as repayment for investments.

Done right, we can have a positive feedback loop between the town and dungeon, as they fuel each others growth. The earth pulse will feed it from one direction, and forgein trade / travelers from the other.
>>
No. 93617 ID: ebcefd

>young, poor, starry eyed men to trot off to the dungeon who do not come back
If there is not an adventurer-loan system in place we will have to work with a town dweller to make one. Here's the basic concept:
1. Joe Noob wants to be an adventurer but needs some money for equipment and the very important rez-cash.
2. The loan agency places signs in town and on the path to the dungeons advertise Adventure Loans, "A no-down-payment method to give you the adventurer the essential ingredients to begin your quest for glory".
3. At the loan agency, Noob can sign a deal in which he gets a loan in return for an agreement to pay back an amount of loot based on the amount borrowed and to leave behind something curseable like a lock of hair or a small vial of blood as collateral.
4a. Noob dies before getting much/any loot and drops his rez-cash. The dungeon collects the rez-cash and gives the loan agency back a pre-agreed portion.
4b. Noob succeeds (or at least gets enough loot to turn a profit before dying or turning back). The loan agency gets its share of the loot from Noob and gives the dungeon back a pre-agreed portion.
4c. Noob takes the money and runs or profits from the dungeon and never repays. The dungeon and/or loan agency curses him.
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No. 93627 ID: bd8b82

>>93607
how rez system works, as well as how potions and magic work are probably known, even by the starry eyed young lads. a town simply wont care about an IDIOT getting killed for attacking a monster way stronger then them. a child? sure, a child is incapable of knowing better. but a married man is old enough to know the difference between a fight he can win and one he can't unless he is insane.
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No. 93668 ID: 13ff66

>>93627
try not to look at it with a modern lens. The frontal lobe (area affecting judgement) doesn't fully develop until age 25, and historically marrying age have been culturally accepted to be much younger than that. Of course magic didn't exist in these cultures, so that might lend so validity to your stance.
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No. 93670 ID: ad7bba

Well also the fact that if the culture judges them old enough to marry, it's likely to judge them to be old enough to own the consequences to their actions and not be treated as a child in matters of life and death. What with the doing that re: marriage.

There's very clearly an established dungeoneering culture, and I can't imagine that being the case if people mob dungeon operations because young idiots die in them. We know dungeons run into trouble when they are careless or malicious with the monster generation, but we're pretty remote up on the mountain here, so that shouldn't be a huge concern.

Better qualities would be more simple descriptions: remoteness, difficulty, fame/reputation. Things like that.

I also don't believe dungeons are typically oriented towards or even particularly well-suited for anything like typical interaction with other settlements. They, and their denizens, seem reclusive by nature.
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No. 93677 ID: 13ff66

>>93617
Cut down on potential bad reputation, and enable us to slice off our losses when they pay us back? Brilliant. I would avoid cursing though, that stuff is tricky business. As Aesop said: 'Ill intentions, like chickens, always come home to roost.'

Rather, mark them with a far more terrible and legitimate affliction: Debt collectors. Make sure we have everything in writing, an enforceable contract, and sell the outstanding debt to third parties. That way we get paid, and the debt is handed off to other people who then can collect from the delinquent at their own risk and leisure: easy money.
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No. 93681 ID: 3663d3

>>93676
tracking curse. the person cursed shows up really obvious to anyone looking for them.
>>
No. 93700 ID: 3663d3

why do people keep suggesting we imprison people? we fight people and beat them up. they die and resurrect. then they get more prepared. maybe buy an extra potion or something, and attack again a few days later. they don't try once then never try a dungeon again.
>>
No. 93717 ID: 99cfa8

>>93700
I don't know about anyone else but I wasn't suggesting we actually imprison people; rather, we make a section of dungeon that LOOKS like a prison (or just a medical facility), which we put ressed adventurers in, to let them escape and possibly come back when otherwise they would be permadead since they didn't have their own ressing.

The only reasons to make it a "prison" are theming, and concealing that we have resurrection. If we're not concerned about either of those then just ressing them and sending them on their way is fine too.
... Well, and we'd maybe get a little more earth-pulse racing from their "daring escape"s, but that's just gravy.

Of course if it is a "prison", that might have some PR issues, but not as bad as a real one would be.
>>
No. 93718 ID: 99cfa8

>>93717
And just to be clear, we would ONLY do this for adventurers that have no other means of resurrection and would therefore otherwise be dead dead.
>>
No. 93719 ID: 5c9255

Since that interjection might have come across a little harsher than I intended, I realise there's a lot of decisions on dungeon running (dungeonomics?) yet to be made but things do seem to run away from the current decision point pretty easily.
>>
No. 93723 ID: 2a7417

>>/quest/660065
I imagine the Golemancer's Guild would be displeased with us for creating a Grey Clay end-of-world scenario, albeit impressed.
>>
No. 93726 ID: 3663d3

>>93717
the problem is how much does it cost to res someone on the spot? pretty sure we bind all the dungeon inhabitants to our resurrection matrix. not just snatch them from the ether without any prep time.
>>
No. 93732 ID: ab7529

>>/quest/659987
>> And holding people for ransom changes the whole tone of what we're doing.
>You'd have to ask Deem about that; better not to assume. Regardless of her reception to the idea, we can't pretend that we can do this without it being seen as an act of hostility by the neighboring populace. These sorts of decisions carry consequences. If we want to go ahead with this route that's alright, so long as we are prepared for their natural outcomes.
I really don't need Deem to tell me what tone I see our (potential) actions setting. And neither apparently do you, since you feel comfortable casting them as hostile and dangerous.

...also I think you rather missed the point, and are responding to a post expressing caution / skepticism as if it endorsed the idea in question.
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No. 93791 ID: 13ff66

>>93732
Formatting error. Tried to correct it but the password got lost. went to the IRC to ask an admin to correct it, still haven't gotten a hold of one yet. That's just what happens when you do a bunch of little edits by copy-pasting, deleting-posting. Sorry for the mixed message; I'll be sure to write it out in a WP before I post next time.
>>
No. 93795 ID: 13ff66

>>/moo/3864
That's what it was supposed to look like.

THIS is what it's supposed to look like.
>>/moo/3865
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