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108985 No. 108985 ID: 6cbace

Thought this might be a good thing to have.

http://tgchan.org/wiki/I_Am
605 posts omitted. Last 50 shown. Expand all images
>>
No. 131570 ID: 0a7f21

well, to retort, Emils was told by Lust to stop using the natives way of using magic and figure out her own because we'd be way better at it, thus I'm pretty sure she doesn't need to copy anything at all to learn it, it's just faster.

The person telling us you need a level 4 teacher to learn a spell... is a mundane, normal rabbold talking about normal, mundane rabbold and avaros and whatever else.

There is a reason to want a frost spell and that's that we have several other "elements" available to us in spellcasting but not specifically ice. It could be quite useful. Based on the way magic is consistently described in this quest, I think Emils can most likely modify the components of spells since the underlying cause effect is visible, thus any "shield" spell should allow us to make earth or fire shields, and for that matter nothing is stopping us creating an ice ball. This makes sense thematically even if we haven't actually done so. At the same time, what's stopping us casting a reverse fire spell and assuming that's what the natives are using for ice magic? Maybe we don't need any of this, again, lust hinted we would have a much greater mastery of magic if we stopped relying on natives and their half assed understanding of it.

I think we should not only take Sentry (other skills are nice but I can't see Emils using a weapon when she'd be so much more effective with her natural abilities, and kick would probably be teaching how a rabbold kicks instead of someone who can adjust their weight to make it more powerful), but focus practical skills and anything that lets us relate to the rabbolds better (this isn't that, but being able to defend seems generically useful even in Emils context).
>>
No. 131571 ID: 9e04c9

>>131570
You're relying too much on what Lust told Emils. The problem is that the hints that Lust had given us won't come into play for quite a while. Sure, at some point in the future Emils won't need to rely on the natives' way of casting spells anymore. But can you guess when exactly that's going to happen? We can't. And it would be quite reckless to assume that it's gonna happen anytime soon, let alone base your decisions on it.

>we'd be way better at it
The important word here is would. Right now, Emils doesn't know how to do that and isn't better at it. Right now, she does need to copy to learn. In fact, even after Emils figures out the better way, she may still need to know the spells to be able to figure out the underlying causality. Hmm, I'd say there's about 80% chance that Emils would still need the spells or their components for that.

>The person telling us you need a level 4 teacher to learn a spell...
The point of my paragraph there was that we aren't guaranteed to learn all the spells because that relies on finding the people who hold them, not our own research. We certainly don't have a list of all the spells in existence.

>being able to defend
Not defend. Guard. Frost Shield defends, Sentry guards. It's good to hear you find "defending" useful tho ;)
Btw, a skill being "generically useful" isn't an argument, as I already explained, because that applies to all the skills and spells equally. You gotta quantify this usefulness~

>practical skills
Practical skills, sure. Is Sentry practical? Is being good at standing-in-front-of-a-gate-on-a-guard-duty useful to Emils? I made this up, but again. we don't know what this skill does. I don't understand how you can be so certain that this skill is actually useful heh.

Hmm, maybe Emils should become a Guard. Haha, I can already picture it now. Emils the best guard in the world! Standing in front of a gate 24 hours a day. Not moving a muscle. Not ever blinking her eyes. Not even breathing! And if a suspicious person comes near, it's a guard's duty to inform everyone of the danger. A flower girl? A FLOWER GIRL APPROACHESSSSSS!!! Emils would of course shout so loud that the whole town would know. Forget mahou shouju, who'd want to pass this up?
>>
No. 131572 ID: b1b4f3

This looks to be another case of groupthink being worse than a collection of votes from isolated people working on the same problem.
One person puts forth a case that's convincing but incorrect, and people bandwagon onto it without any critical analysis.

The only thing Sentry is going to give Emils is the knowledge of how other people keep watch. She can literally have eyes on the back of her head, she doesn't need to train alertness.
>>
No. 131575 ID: 8d4593

>>131572
>the knowledge of how other people keep watch
From what is effectively a first hand perspective at that.

Even if she never uses this skill itself, the knowledge can be applied to other situations, mainly for infiltration purposes.

There is definite use for the skill. It's another non-violent tool in the box for slime to should they need it.

What we really need to consider is the opportunity cost.
Here's what I'm thinking

For Sentry:

It could be useful in some fringe situations like infiltrations, but is really better as part of a suite of tools that Slime doesn't yet have.
Since Emils isn't straight murder-hoboing anymore there are only 3 real ways of getting Sentry:
1: Have slime transform into an untrained form and trust /quest/ to murder-hobo a guard.
2: Doctor another person with sentry who doesn't have anything better.
3: Kill a hostile guard on some sort of mission. (Which may never happen)

For Ice Shield:

It's immediately useful, but we don't know if it will be redundant or helpful with our ice magic ability and intent to learn magic "Properly".
The chance that it could be helpful toward this endeavor is most notable.
It should be noted that this is a very in character choice for Emils.
We could get Ice Shield:
1:In a fight with another magic user, as these things seem to happen.
2:In the unlikely event that we doctor someone else with it.
3: Should we take up Victoria's suggestion to attend the magic academy, though there may be caveats like specialization.
4: When we master "proper" magic, whenever that may be.

I began writing this post in defense of my Sentry pick, but ended up deleting my vote changes during writing it, if that is any indication of what this "Critical Thinking" thing can do.
>>
No. 131576 ID: 9e04c9

>>131575
You forgot for Sentry:
4: Ask Resida to teach it to us.
As I already argued, if we heal her properly, she'd likely return a favor. Note that the same cannot be applied to Frost Shield due to the "rank 4 restriction". And even if she's rank 4+, unless she's a trained teacher, she'd likely refuse to perform something as dangerous as teaching magic to a child.
>>
No. 131578 ID: 977456

The problem with learning sentry is that it takes time to learn, time doing pretty near to nothing.
The problem with learning ice shield is that Emils has aced every spell she's tried and understands the vocabulary, so the evidence suggests that all she needs is vocabulary, which can be studied. A normal practitioner would require a level 4 teacher, Emils would appear(though I admit this to be speculation and not directly evidenced) to only need to get a hold of a list of incantations in order to cast every permutation of the available vocabulary.
Ice Shield would most likely teach us a lot about the vocabulary and get us a dozen new spells if we really worked at it, but a book listing incantations(perhaps a guide to recognising what the hand-waggler is about to throw at your squad) could potentially do the same thing. Lots of conjecture here, yes, but not baseless conjecture.

I do not know what the sentry skill does, but I am guessing that it is a skill based on being a sentry. I assume that a sentry is someone who stands at a perimeter keeping watch for incoming, and potentially challenging a visitors credentials. I am assuming that it is mostly vigilance. Other people are assuming that Ice Shield isn't used to weigh down an opponent's shield with ice, shield against ice, or be a pun for "Eyes Healed". Or even a spell for summoning a pogo-stick that was named by an extremely influential troll. The guesses of "a shield made of ice" and "Stand watch without falling asleep or missing anything" seem sensible, but we can't be sure.

As a detection skill it is difficult to absorb without being detected, that is the only direct importance of that. The current target is extremely vulnerable, we can't speculate on future such opportunities. While it is always difficult to absorb quietly, there are things like sedatives and intoxicants that an observant person would be more aware of our efforts to disable them subtly.

It is a broader psychology thing. Sentry duty is difficult. They threats to it, of being distracted, assuming things won't change, weakening from tiredness, keeping track of shifts... there is a lot to learn of people from how they fail at awareness, and Sentry ought to grant Emils a great deal of awareness of these things. Of benefit to avoiding notice and knowing why people overlook things in daily life.

We really need to do more spell exploration. If it really is as simple as getting the recipes and then all the power of magic is ours to command, then we should find out. It certainly looks that way. And who knows, maybe we don't even need incantations. But from what I chave seen, skills seem like Emils has far more difficulty acquiring them and to contain far-more broadly-applicable knowledge.

Asking Resida to teach us would be an option, but it would require a lot of time and it looks very difficult for Emils to fake the weaknesses that they would be trying to overcome. Sentry offers almost nothing directly(aside from impersonating a non-slime when stuck on draining tasks), but has huge potential indirect benefits. All based upon assumption, but not blind assumption.
>>
No. 131579 ID: 8d4593

>>131578
I'm seeing it like this: Generalism is bad early on. We should focus on being really good at one thing first so we have strategies we are genuinely effective with, instead of being bad at everything. Yes we have our godlike mana beast powers but those really should be used sparingly.

Both Frost shield and Sentry are Items we can put into our build, but Sentry is more for a Champion or a Rouge, where Emils is clearly going Mage or Spell Sword, or at the very least just collecting magic for the Magical Girl framework.

Frost Shield and magic in general directly applies to our current build path and objectives.
Sentry and Adventurer/Combat knowledge builds on itself and won't be useful until much later.

Unless we want Slime to create a new persona that will focus on martial/roguish prowess and adventuring Right Now, Sentry is a poor choice for us.
>>
No. 131580 ID: b1b4f3

Radial stated in discord that if Emils learns some ice magic, her Thermoregulation ability would be improved.
Which means she could lower her body temperature by a lot. Enough to freeze things on contact, I'd wager. I don't think her slime can freeze as easily as water.

It might also allow her to fake her own death? Go limp and cold, pretend to be a corpse.
>>
No. 131581 ID: 0a7f21

If we need to fake our death we'll just make an empty meat puppet duplicate and rough it up a bit.

The reason I think we should take sentry is exactly what's mentioned with having practical person to person experience. Something like Sentry would come with attention to detail, focus, general awareness, social and otherwise. Or maybe it's just how to barricade behind a shield. Maybe it's a general understanding of defensive combat.

But it would be experiential skill, which would hopefully help Emils be more socially capable around rabbolds. I'm not even sure it would work like this, skills might be specifically an action you have to take, but it makes sense thematically, and if it's how it works we should be taking as many practical skills from people as we can, and then Emils can explore magic in a more general way, since she's already good at that anyway.

With the way things are progressing so far why are we even considering combat at all a concern? If nothing is threatening to you why be worried about another combat spell?
>>
No. 131584 ID: 8d4593

>With the way things are progressing so far why are we even considering combat at all a concern? If nothing is threatening to you why be worried about another combat spell?

We've had the element of surprise on all of our combats in some way or another. No one we've fought so far has been ready for us or our abilities.
That can change.
Hell. This Rabbold that we are healing right now, if supplied with information on our abilities and nature could prove dangerous. If they were part of a small team of Rabbolds with similar capabilities? They could take us down. Slime is not all powerful, they just haven't been properly challenged yet.

Aside from that, most magic we learn offers useful side effects. Also the more magic we know, the closer we get to mastering it's secrets.
>>
No. 131585 ID: 977456

I feel that Emils can reasonably defeat anything that would be a measured response to what Emils appears to be: a frequently solitary rabbold child. Anything that isn't a measured response would... well, I have no idea what the local version of a master assassin or raider band looks like, so preparations start with research... . Realistically, the best approach to such a thing would be running away, which can be broken down to: see them coming => evaluate the threat => flee => attain safety. Sentry should help a lot with the second, Ice shield with the third.
One thing we could aim for is defeating a measured response against Victoria? What would that entail though? I'd still rather pick up Sentry for a chance to spot the difference between incoming raiders and returning patrols. It is unlikely to identify an experience assassin, but might work on urchin pickpockets and might differentiate a thug who's taking a break from one who's waiting for the establishment to empty out.

... It is really difficult to pick when we know so little. It really might have no character profiling at all, or it could have the full bouncer package...
>>
No. 131586 ID: 8d4593

>>131585
I've heard 20 different possible capabilities for Sentry in this thread.

Maybe we should just ask.
Hey Radial, what does Sentry do?
>>
No. 131587 ID: c86bb8

Abilities are a general name for a set of skills.
Sentry itself could be a sense of alertness, intuition on how to guard something, observation, or even just the ability to stand in one place for long periods of time.
It’s like how both Alice and Victoria have dance abilities, but it’s not listed how well they can dance or what they can dance.

Names of the abilities and skills are intentionally vague so that there’s a sense of exploration in what you’d get from them.

The difference between what Slime is doing now and learning something, is the concept of things.
Slime can absorb how to dance, learn the ability to move in time to a tempo or tune, but won’t really understand why one dances or be able to dance with emotions behind it.
Likewise she could copy movements and procedures but it’s like between copying by sight or by training. One is more fluid while the other is like following steps to do something.

In regards to vocabulary of chants, Slime doesn’t really need to chant. What she needs is the path mana needs to make the spell.
>>
No. 131588 ID: 536f7c

so... if we were to just say... carefully observe some people acting as sentries one night instead of pretending to sleep... It would have a similar effect to copying this skill?
>>
No. 131589 ID: 4286b4

>>131578
>The problem with learning sentry is that it takes time to learn, time doing pretty near to nothing.
Based on the evidence so far, I'd say that this is false and that learning it would be fast.
> >>/questarch/834242 >Sword skills: F -> D
A few sparring sessions (or even a single one) was enough to rank up the sword skill substantially.

>Emils has aced every spell she's tried and understands the vocabulary, so the evidence suggests that all she needs is vocabulary, which can be studied.
This is a non-sequitur. First you write that she needed to try the spell (A) and understood the vocabulary (B), and then you conclude that this means she only needs to know the vocabulary (B).
"She needed A and B, therefore she only needs B."
This is not logical.

So far, there is no spell that Emils was able to cast by knowing only the vocabulary. So unfortunately, there is no evidence for your assertions.

Even your statement that "she understands the vocabulary" is false, but that's a different rabbit hole altogether.

>As a detection skill it is difficult to absorb without being detected
About as difficult as any other skill. Unlike Emils, people don't get a warning sign in their head saying that someone's accessing their cores heh.

>it is a skill based on being a sentry
Everything you wrote in this paragraph is sensible and I agree with that. What I don't agree with is when you start making connections that go far beyond the definition of the word:
>Sentry ought to grant Emils a great deal of awareness of these things
Why do I disagree with it? Because counter-evidence starts piling up.
Emils has Sword, Spear, Magic, Language, Song and Dance skills, correct? Has any of these skills granted her insight into the broad psychology around these skills?
Nope (or at least I couldn't find any). So we got 6 examples of skills that haven't granted her anything outside the relatively narrow definition of a skill. It makes no sense to expect that number 7 would be different.
Now, there may be a reason for this. It's possible that the higher level the skill is, the more broadly its concepts can be applied where psychology is at higher ranks. So what skill rank can we expect to get?
F.
That's right. If Emils copied Sentry skill it would almost definitely be a rank F skill. Sword, Spear, Magic, Dance, all the skills that Emils absorbed or copied were assigned a rank F. So even if Emils copied Sentry, you can be damn sure she won't be getting into the psychology business anytime soon.

>it looks very difficult for Emils to fake the weaknesses that they would be trying to overcome
Umm, I don't understand. Why would Emils need to fake weakness? We don't need to appear pitiful for her to teach us Sentry. Simply healing her should be enough to be able to ask for a favor.
>>
No. 131592 ID: b1b4f3

>>131587
So you're saying the primary reason people want Sentry- understanding why other people use the skill- wouldn't actually be obtained?
>>
No. 131593 ID: 977456

>Why would Emils need to fake weakness?
Teaching someone to stand guard means teaching them to stay awake, and Emils would have difficulty looking normal-everyday-Rabbold-tired. It means learning to shift when uncomfortable without making yourself visible or loud, Emils doesn't tend to get uncomfortable. Waiting for Emils to get restless or meditative to teach her how to spot the feeling and get back to the functional range of calm and alert would likewise be... odd. Standing sentry is actually easy, just being alert and assessing if you need to raise the alarm. Becoming good at it is a study of someone's weaknesses: why they will fail at an easy task when doing it over a long time. More than that, first-hand experience is vital. It is one thing to be told that you will hyperfocus and another to find the motion of a leaf interesting and then to feel a nudge and realise that your instructor has wrapped a towel around you three times and the fire has died down. Some people might teach watch-duty with formal instruction, but random adventurer here is going to stick her in a field and wait to tell her what she is doing wrong. Watching for all the failures expected of a newbie sentry would hurl Emils so far into uncanny valley it'd leave a crater. I really can't see Emils getting the full sentry experience without stealing it.

As for the psychology? I am still hopeful that why you need all these little tricks for standing around doing nothing without falling asleep can be partially extracted from knowing that they are vital to doing so. Far from certain though.
>>
No. 131602 ID: 3674e7

Couldn't Sentry be more of an intuition case where we feel like something without actually knowing. If we gain it artificially by just taking it instead of learning it we wont know what the information it gives means. For example some people may just feel eerie others may feel when their being watched through intuition, while a trained person will be able to tell whether its just passers by being curious, animals passing by or someone's bloodthirst.
>>
No. 131603 ID: 977456

>>131602 Entirely possible! Then again, Ice and Shield both have verb forms. A spell that shields ice would be excellent for keeping ice sculptures intact, and might also work for keeping an icebox cold. If all it does is grant mild and instictual control over ice, a material which is in short supply, it would be nearly useless. We can only guess. "Shield composed of ice" seems sensible but s far from certain. As an adventurer she may have spent time in the guard, or be a former bandit lookout, or taken shifts at night. The first would be nice as they would probably give more I.F.F. . The "watch shifts at a small camp" one is less so, but would have to have some identification of dangers and some attempt to avoid a fight with other groups just looking to share a fire, and would have a better range of skills for dealing with improvised posts.

More specifically. I would think that the mental ability to use the skill (such as actually knowing that silhouettes make you visible, rather than an instinctual fear of high ground) would be an integral component of the skill, and that the skill holder possesses such, because performing the skill has some mental aspects that they use, such as consciously assessing a campground for good hiding spots with adequate vision, but it is all speculation!
>>
No. 131608 ID: ba56e6

Gaining the Sentry knowledge from a first hand perspective may also help better understand how mortals see the world and contribute to empathy. Or at least better pseudo-empathy.
>>
No. 131609 ID: b1b4f3

OH, I thought of another use for improved Thermoregulation:
Emils wouldn't have to damage herself so much when heating things. She could heat the very surface of her body while cooling herself rapidly below it, instead of just soaking up the heat.

She could also probably use it to generate water and then freeze it to create ice at will. Like an ice spike to stab with or she could soak something and then freeze it to cause structural damage that even her strength couldn't manage.
>>
No. 131610 ID: 4286b4

Ok so, here's my takeaway.

People mentioned many possible benefits to getting the Sentry skill, such as attention to detail, alertness, general awareness, etc. The problem here is that, if we copy the skill, it would almost certainly start at the lowest rank - rank F. The mentioned benefits (if they're possible at all), unfortunately, aren't going to come into play when the skill is at rank F. Their effect would either be negligible or inaccessible at the lowest rank. So if we wanted to benefit from copying this skill, we would have to spend plenty of time training it.

How do we train the Sentry skill?
We would have to ask Resida to train us. But wait. If we're going to talk to Resida and ask her to train us in this skill, why did we copy it at all? Because if Resida's going to teach us, that means we would learn this skill anyway - the skill would be created without needing to copy it.

So logically, if we want to benefit from the Sentry skill, it makes no sense to copy it right now. We should both obtain and level it through training.

So my proposition here is that we get both Sentry and Frost Shield skill. I propose that we copy Frost Shield, and then ask Resida to train us in Sentry.

I believe that Resida would likely accept training us due to her being in debt to us for healing her - assuming the healing goes well. One minor thing to note here is that, for her to be able to teach us, she'd probably need to be able to walk. In other words, we'd need to heal her legs as well.
>>
No. 131611 ID: 8d4593

>>131610
Wisdom
>>
No. 131612 ID: 33056f

So the person were healing is the inspector that got mauled by the slime, right? I wonder if we can tap their memories somehow to get more details.
>>
No. 131636 ID: f133dc

No, just no. We aren't going to ask Resida for anything, let alone something that would eat up days of time.

Tons of people have already put in their 2 cents, lets see what Radial decides on.
>>
No. 131638 ID: 528d9b

Nobody else think trapping slimes in ice sound useful? Just me? Ok....
>>
No. 131640 ID: 9e04c9

>>131638
Sounds kinda inefficient when she can just stop the mana flow inside anything she wishes.
>>
No. 131642 ID: ba56e6

>>131640
Awfully haughty to assume it will work on higher ranked slimes.
>>
No. 131643 ID: f133dc

That's actually a good idea.

Why are we learning any non-utility magic at all when it seems likely Emils can kill anything by fucking with their mana flows. Imagine just being in manipulation range and forcing them to overload. Would they just explode?
>>
No. 131645 ID: 528d9b

>>131643
If Beatrice, a rabold, can feel Emils mana probing and be resistant to it we can assume we won't be able to manipulate the mana of any unwilling active mana beast.
>>
No. 131650 ID: 9e04c9

>>131642
Certainly much more likely than ice.

>>131645
Bea didn't actually resist Emils' manipulation. Why do you assert that she did?
>>
No. 131651 ID: 528d9b

>>131650

>>/questarch/919784
>With Beatrice holding my hand, I attempt to look into her Mana Veins.
>I am unable to get a good grasp of body before Bea jerks her hand away, clutching it.
>"Wha- What was that?"

She noticed the probing attempt.

>>/questarch/919784
>I begin to hum, as I inject my mana into her hand.
>Her hands grip my hands, and she appears to be in pain.
>"Relax. Do not reject the intrusion."
>The hum changes into a tune, as Beatrice tries to relax.
>I continue to flow my mana into her arms, and up her shoulder.
>As I go deeper, my mana gets eroded by hers, with each beat of her heart and pulse of her core.
>I press harder as she crushes my hand. She is clenching hard, as she begins shaking.
>I grab her shoulder with my other hand, steadying her as my tune matches her mana. It is feels unpleasant.

Even with permission and cooperation the intruding mana got eroded and the experience was unpleasant for both of them before Emils even reach her core. When she reached her core:

>My mana barely touches her core, as I try to adjust the flow over it's surface.
It's barely a change. A patch at best, but a redirection of mana is complete, and I slowly retract with a small copy of her skill.

Significant changes are hard to do.

Beatrice seem to be more perceptive than most rabold, but compared to beings that function exclusively by manipulating mana and have their cores fulfilling the function of brains I don't expect she would be considered an expert in the flow of mana.

Considering this, imagine a similar scenario but what Emils is trying to do is to kill Beatrice via mana manipulation. She find an excuse to maintain physical contact but as soon as she start to pumping mana into her target the process is interrupted.
She could attempt to forcible immobilize Beatrice but in this case Emils would need to overpower her physically and the mana erosion would likely be worst in an unwilling target.
Instead let's follow the sequence of events. Emils somehow get permission to interfere with her mana even though her intentions are harmful. She reach her core and attempt to change something essential for survival, that would naturally be a function performed repeatedly during her entire life, so "deeply etched". Whatever Emils would be able to do would be a "barely change" to it's normal function. yea, she could cause a catastrophic failure with a small change, but would it be fast or efficient?
Does this process look like an effective alternative for utilitarian magic?

Imagine Emils were to face another slime, generally considered weaker than other mana beasts but amorphous.
The only way to forcible immobilize such creature would be to completely involve it, but if Emils get at this point she could simply eat it. Here forcible manipulating the target mana is already out of question.
We could aims attacks toward the core, be if we succeed our prize would be damaged. Similarly if the enemy slime is forced to spend all it's mana reserve it will become less "nutritious" to Emils.
The last option is to reduce it's mass. We either burn it or remove chunks and absorb before the enemy.

The lack of good options is the reason I though a movement restriction magic would be useful against hostile mana beasts.
>>
No. 131653 ID: 9e04c9

>>131651
>She noticed the probing attempt.
We don't know if the target noticing the effects of mana manipulation changes the success rate or the efficacy of this skill. Therefore, this argument does not prove or disprove anything. It is irrelevant.

>permission and cooperation
Whether Slime has permission or not, and whether the target cooperates or not, are also irrelevant arguments. The reasoning is the same. We don't know what would've happened had Bea not cooperated. It's entirely possible that the result would've been the same.

>the intruding mana got eroded
Again, irrelevant. The only thing this implies is that the target's own mana will disperse Slime's mana the closer to the target's core Slime's mana gets. There's no evidence to suggest that Bea had any influence on this erosion. And since Slime was successful despite the erosion, there's nothing to say she cannot be successful against a mana beast as well.

I'd also like to note that Bea has an enchantment on her. It's possible that this enhancement is causing or increasing the erosion. The same erosion is not mentioned in our dealings with Alice and Resida.

>Significant changes are hard to do.
Significant changes that do not harm the target. If Slime had not been under this restriction, if she went against a mana beast and was free to push Mana Manipulation to its limit, we don't know what she could be capable of.

>beings that function exclusively by manipulating mana
This is false. I suggest you re-read >>118135
Also, Emils is a mana beast and she started without Mana Manipulation skill.

>what if Emils is trying to kill Beatrice via mana manipulation
Then she wouldn't try to carefully reach her core. She could do it forcefully. Or she could simply stop the mana going into her brain, or arms and legs, or she'd stop the mana from the ground from reaching her body, or she'd redirect mana from inside the body to the outside, or make her mana veins pop, etc. There are endless possibilities.

>what if Emils were to face another slime
A slime with Mana Manipulation fighting a slime without Mana Manipulation? Easy victory.

>The lack of good options
I think you're too focused on the abilities that would immediately benefit Slime in fighting other slimes. Remember, Slime doesn't actually know that there could be a dangerous slime in the city. It makes no sense for her to expect such a confrontation.

Oh and, if the enemy slime has Thermoregulation, it could just melt any ice.
>>
No. 131656 ID: 528d9b

>>131653
You think I'm jumping to conclusions when you were arguing that mana manipulation is an effective alternative to utilitarian spells. Interesting...
>Sounds kinda inefficient when she can just stop the mana flow inside anything she wishes.
Don't forget your claim is just as speculative as mine. If I can't "prove or disprove anything" neither can you, making your arguments equally "irrelevant".


>This is false. I suggest you re-read >>118135
>There are no organs, tissue, muscle, or life force found inside a MB that belongs to the MB.
>Instead, they feed off of ambient mana, or the mana of beasts, capable of surviving for years on a single prey. Different sizes of mana beasts results in different choices of prey.
Emils mana manipulation skill is the ability to manipulate the mana of others. Maybe I should come up with a different term for the mana beast core manipulating the body mana to make it function, but I can't think of something better.
To be clear, not all of them have the ability of manipulating the mana outside of their bodies, but the control over the mana in their bodies is the only thing that makes them function.
Also: >>128373
>Outside of mana manipulation and perception, the core can’t see outside of touch and vibrations.
Mana perception is the equivalent to their vision.
Am I being unreasonable to assume such creature would be better at perceiving and avoiding Emils attempt to manipulate their own mana than Beatrice?

>Alice and Resida
There is a clear hierarchy in their perception to Emils intrusion. Alice didn't even notice what was happening, Resida felt pain as soon as the intrusion begin and Beatrice also noticed and eroded the invading mana.
Since Beatrice is more competent in whatever this is she is a better comparison to creatures I presume are by nature even better than her at this.

>The only thing this implies is that the target's own mana will disperse Slime's mana the closer to the target's core Slime's mana gets. There's no evidence to suggest that Bea had any influence on this erosion.
True.
Do you think mana beasts won't erode invading mana? If they will, do you expect them to do so better or worst than Beatrice?
Even if cooperation has no effect in the procedure the problem remain.

>It's possible that this enhancement is causing or increasing the erosion.
Sure, magic can do whatever the author want it to do. The cause could also be something else. "It's Magic. I Ain't Gotta Explain Shit." doesn't lead to further discussions. Either way goes until we get a clearer picture.

>Significant changes that do not harm the target. If Slime had not been under this restriction, if she went against a mana beast and was free to push Mana Manipulation to its limit, we don't know what she could be capable of.
True. It's easier to break than it is to fix

>Then she wouldn't try to carefully reach her core. She could do it forcefully. Or she could simply stop the mana going into her brain, or arms and legs, or she'd stop the mana from the ground from reaching her body, or she'd redirect mana from inside the body to the outside, or make her mana veins pop, etc. There are endless possibilities.
That is awesome and unusually cruel, but it's more efficient than burning? Faster than stabbing? More efficient than freezing? I suspect the time of the procedure and the requirement of contact will make such attacks less efficient than utilitarian magic.

>A slime with Mana Manipulation fighting a slime without Mana Manipulation? Easy victory.
Don't assume the enemy won't have the same ability. Even if it doesn't, how do you expect to maintain forcible physical contact with a creature that can reshape it's body?
Honestly I suspect in such conflict the mana manipulation will only be useful when Emils already dominate the enemy and is free to do whatever she wants, like if she were to corner the enemy with a movement restrictive spell for example.

>Oh and, if the enemy slime has Thermoregulation, it could just melt any ice.
Instantaneously? Wouldn't we get any advantage by delaying the actions of an adversary?

>I think you're too focused on the abilities that would immediately benefit Slime in fighting other slimes. Remember, Slime doesn't actually know that there could be a dangerous slime in the city. It makes no sense for her to expect such a confrontation.
I only picked a slime as an example because their amorphous bodies can't be immobilized by the use of physical force unless you restrain them to a container. Other mana beasts have more defined bodies but there are suggestions that they are able to move in ways that seems impossible considering their apparent joins. To reduce speculation and guide the proposal to the problem I was trying to illustrate the slime is the better option, but I do expect similar difficulties from every other mana beast.
And Lust did strongly suggest that Emils would find herself in conflict with other mana beasts, so she should expect it to happen eventually.

I don't even care what ability we copy, I'm just slightly annoyed that combat abilities were being devalued because it may be possible to weaponize a surgical technique.
>>
No. 131657 ID: ba56e6

>>131651
>A slime with Mana Manipulation fighting a slime without Mana Manipulation? Easy victory.
A lot of assumptions there, chum.

Emils being powerful doesn't mean there are bigger fish. In fact, we know for a fact there are bigger fish. We've seen them.
>>
No. 131676 ID: 4286b4

>>131656
>your claim is just as speculative as mine
Well, my claim is supported by relevant evidence...

>Emils mana manipulation skill is the ability to manipulate the mana of others.
Mana Manipulation is the ability to manipulate mana at range. It was created from Solid Material Manipulation, which is the ability to manipulate solid material at a distance, if you remember the Spire spell.

>not all of them have the ability of manipulating the mana outside of their bodies
We don't know if there exist any, other than Slime, that can.

>the control over the mana in their bodies is the only thing that makes them function
You don't need to control your blood to be able to function. You only need to create a flow.

>such creature would be better at perceiving and avoiding Emils attempt to manipulate their own mana
Slime started without Mana Perception btw.

>Since Beatrice is more competent
> >>/quest/951668 >I’ve not done this on anyone who resisted this much
The last update contradicts this by stating that Resida's resistance was greater than Bea's.

>Do you think mana beasts won't erode invading mana? If they will, do you expect them to do so better or worst than Beatrice?
A very good question. What we know (note that this is backstage info) is the flow of mana inside mana beasts vary. When they're small, the ambient mana is enough to sustain them, which implies mana flow even weaker than a rabbold child's. However, as they grow, this flow increases. Bea has quite a strong flow, therefore I'd assume that, even if it was a large mana beast with a large mana flow, it would not be enough to erode Slime's attempt. Of course, mana flow and control over mana are two different things. Resida was able to resist Slime better than Bea, despite having a weaker flow.

>but it's more efficient than burning?
Does the efficiency matter when the result is the same? Also, burning is bad for the environment~

>how do you expect to maintain forcible physical contact with a creature that can reshape it's body?
It turns out that slime on slime action can be quite a sticky mess.

>Wouldn't we get any advantage by delaying the actions of an adversary?
Any advantage gained would be offset by the disadvantage of the time it takes to cast the spell.

>>131657
>A lot of assumptions there, chum.
Only one. That all other things were equal hehe.

>In fact, we know for a fact there are bigger fish. We've seen them.
I dunno man. The Sarous (>>/questarch/843165) weren't very strong ;)
>>
No. 131677 ID: 977456

>Well, my claim is supported by relevant evidence...
The claim goes back to "trap a slime in ice" versus "Stopping their mana is cheaper". Ice generation is supported by evidence, and ice, in sufficient quantities, is capable of preventing motion. Ice manipulation has not been tested, but the hypothesis is sound. More to the point, the difficulty of such an operation has no demonstrated evidence, so relative judgements are not supported by such.
Mana manipulation has thus far been demonstrated to be performed using intruding tendrils. A global stop effect, while plausible, is not (to my knowledge) demonstrated. A swift one at range is likewise not demonstrated.
The opportunity cost of acquiring the ability is somewhat obscured, due to the lack of information about the options. The efficiency of using the abilities is not known. Even the mere possibility of using the abilities on those specific ways is not guaranteed. All of this is so far into speculation that the amount of evidence for any of the claims is barely relevant. Much as I would have preferred Sentry, Ice Shield is good, and mana stoppage sounds like an excellent technique, but I would not rely upon it until it is demonstrated. Perhaps we should go out alone(or with Red Eyes) hunting to test our abilities?

>You don't need to control your blood to be able to function. You only need to create a flow.
Creating a flow is control. Not total control, but I doubt that we can cause mana to spontaneously explode, or transmute into bratwurst, so total control is probably not an option. Emils has more control, but flows can be powerful and the ability to completely overpower them should not be assumed without testing.

>When they're small, the ambient mana is enough to sustain them, which implies mana flow even weaker than a rabbold child's.
Assuming identical biology, yes. Assuming otherwise identical biology but lacking external food? Very much yes. I hypothesise that slimes have a much more efficient mana-intake to mana-expenditure ratio. As an experiment to test this, I would propose that mana beasts maintain populations in regions in which rabbolds cannot due to mana shortage. If this is the case(I do not know) then a mana beast could maintain a greater mana density on a lower mana diet, when compared with a rabbold. Do we have data on mana beast population shifts relative to rabbold population shifts in mana-deprived regions?

>It turns out that slime on slime action can be quite a sticky mess.
It depends upon whether it only requires maintained contact, or specific points of contact. If a full rotation, or withdrawing the point of intrusion into their body and severing contact, would reset our progress, it would be problematic. It would be reduced if we could perform multiple simultaneous intrusions, and reconnect to a recently-severed intrusion, and create an aura of mana-intrusion over an entire surface, which are all plausible, but if a single flex of slime can reset our efforts to zero, then it would be problematic. The same would apply to solid opponents rolling or jumping into fires or poisons or bucking us into a different position or such.

>Only one. That all other things were equal hehe.
Do we really know enough about mana manipulation's use in the midst of a pitched battle to be sure that it would convert an exactly equal opponent into an easy one. Is it still an easy victory if you have both scoured off two-thirds of the other's slime before compromising their core? I don't know enough about mana manipulation to say that such would be unlikely.

Is a Sarous ambushed while weak and in unfavourable terrain by a skilled opponent using non-mana attacks relevant to this discussion? Sarous seem to be considered "easy if approached competently" and "mana beast" without specification seems to make people nervous. But I agree that combat seems to be a small aspect of our current existence, and social interactions seem to be quite challenging enough that augments would be invaluable.
>>
No. 131678 ID: 528d9b

>Does the efficiency matter when the result is the same? Also, burning is bad for the environment~
That is amusing considering the environmental crisis of this world isn't global warming, but mana deprivation. There are many entities spread around the world that were created with the purpose of terraform the environment, but the mana supply is limited.

The efficiency matter because it can alter the result. Even if we were to assume defeat will never occur for lack of abilities the result can be less binary and failure could, for example, be defined as letting a prey escape.

>It turns out that slime on slime action can be quite a sticky mess.
Are you sure? How do you know? Is this fact established in this quest?

>Any advantage gained would be offset by the disadvantage of the time it takes to cast the spell.
Are you sure? How do you know? Is this fact established in this quest?

>Well, my claim is supported by relevant evidence...
Are you sure? How do you know?

>We don't know if there exist any, other than Slime, that can.
We don't know, but it's not impossible. The ability was made by an administrator rearranging normal skills. There is no reason to assume Lust or other administrator never produced this skill before. Not to mention that Lust may have used this exact ability to alter Emils.
Also the story about the avaro emperor insinuated that the natives and mana beasts can develop something like mana manipulation if mutated with dragon blood.

>The last update contradicts this by stating that Resida's resistance was greater than Bea's.
I just got the impression that Emils overcome her resistance with less difficulty than with Beatrice. Guess Radial emphasized that comment to correct my assumption.

>Slime started without Mana Perception btw.
Could you point out when she gained it? As far as can tell she visualized the shape of the world around her perceiving the circuitry like blue lines of mana from the moment she started to pay attention on the third update. Maybe the ability "Mana Perception" has nothing to do with perceiving the surrounding mana and I'm wrong for classify Emils as having something because she acts like she have it. I'm not sure.
It would help if such fundamental factoids were accompany by a reference, you know the "relevant evidence" that elevate your claims above speculations.

>You don't need to control your blood to be able to function. You only need to create a flow.
What? Of course you need to control the flow of blood in your body. What do you think your vascular system is for?
Arteries and veins have well defined paths to bring resources to all parts of the body and remove dejects. If the arterial blood and the venous blood were to mix in your heart you would die. If the blood stop moving anywhere it will coagulate. If the flow is interrupted in a section of the body this portion will stop functioning and necrosate. If the flow is limited in some area during development this portion will not grow. Blood is highly controlled by our organisms.

But if we go further with this metaphor mana can be compared to blood in the natives, but it's not quite that for the mana beasts. It would be like if a sentient heart could move around manipulating matter using blood and nothing else, not even a vascular system. Except this blood would be naturally pulsating inside the rocks that make the ground. It's a strange metaphor...

> flow of mana thing
I agree with your reasoning except for one thing: I assume mana beast must have a better control over their mana because their are conscious of it while the natives seem to have it like an unconscious system that they learn how to control.


I said you were as speculative as me because I'm not assuming I'm right about everything and your reasoning doesn't look perfect to me. Why don't we look at this as theories we can test in the quest? If Emils were to practice with Jogert a lot of questions could be answer.
>>
No. 131681 ID: ba56e6

>>131676
The assumptions you made were:
-We will be fighting slimes
-We will be fighting slimes without Mana Manipulation
-Fighting the slimes will be easy because they do not have Mana Manipulation, and we do
-Mana Manipulation can be used as effectively on other servitors as it can on the natives (needs to be tested, our only time interacting with one was a willing participant)
>>
No. 131686 ID: 9e04c9

>>131677
>Perhaps we should test our abilities?
It would definitely be wise to test the current limits of Mana Manipulation. What's the effective distance, what types of mana (own, ambient, enemy) can be manipulated, the strength of the effect, the precision, etc.

>I doubt that we can cause mana to spontaneously explode
Maybe not at this exact moment but...
> >>/questarch/905425 >Explosion

>Do we have data on mana beast population shifts...
I don't think so. And I would guess that the chance of such data existing would be low considering that natives kinda die without mana.

>Is a Sarous relevant to this discussion?
Nope. Sarous aren't even mana beasts. It was a joke on the term "bigger fish".

>>131678
>Is this fact established in this quest?
Nope. It's just an old Chinese saying. (lie)

>Is this fact established in this quest?
Yes. It's an established fact that casting a spell takes time.

>Are you sure?
I'm not 100% sure. As I said, there is evidence that supports my claim, not that it proves it.

>There is no reason to assume Lust or other administrator never produced this skill before.
Moderator, not administrator.
And yes, there is a reason to believe that such a skill would not be produced through skill rearrangement. To elaborate, we know that we have the body of Lust (slime), while the actual moderator Lust just died. I think it was implied by the Weaver that there's only one moderator of each mana beast type. Therefore, the enemy slime isn't a known moderator and shouldn't have knowledge of such abilities.

>Could you point out when she gained it?
>>/questarch/780239
>Ability Gained:
>[Mana] perception

>Blood is highly controlled by our organisms.
The only point of control is the heart, which can beat faster, or slower, depending on the demand. There is zero control over where the blood goes, or in what quantities. And as you described it yourself, one thing goes wrong and you die. That's not "control".
The point of this argument is that mana beasts do not necessarily have the ability to manipulate mana within their body. But only within their cores. Simply creating a flow in their core would be enough for them to function as long as there exists a way for them to define pathways for the mana in their bodies to take.

>I assume mana beast must have a better control over their mana because their are conscious of it
Just because you know something exists doesn't mean you're able to control it.

>Why don't we look at this as theories we can test in the quest?
What do you propose?

>>131681
>The assumptions you made were
I think you misunderstood. I wrote "slime", with a non-capital letter. In other words, it was a general statement. If "a slime" fought "another equal slime", and one had this skill and the other didn't, the one with the skill would win.
>>
No. 131688 ID: 528d9b

You interpreted that she gained mana perception as a result of consuming dragon blood. This version didn't even occur to me. I though it was an unspecific announcement of the basic functions of though and perception getting operational, not their creation. In other words I though she had "eyes" before but "opened" them for the first time that moment. However I see what you mean and you might be right.

> Moderator skill thing
Are you saying that is a moderator skill? Any reason for it to be possessed exclusively by moderators? Monopoly of power, perhaps...
I still think it's possible that Lust could have made a slime with the mana manipulation skill or that one slime developed this skill by coincidence after consuming dragon blood. (I don't actually know what exactly dragon blood does when consumes.)

> blood thing
I don't agree to your definition of control. Further arguments seem futile.

> test
Ask Jogert to act as a sparing partner. Emils would attempt to interfere with it's mana in a non lethal way while Jogert would try to resist.
Once established the basics more intense techniques could be experiment on wild beasts and hostile mana beasts if we find one.
>>
No. 131724 ID: f133dc

So something I just wanna say, since other people push back on every single suggestion I make, often to the point of arguing about it.

When you make a suggestion that on it's face doesn't seem like the efficient or effective way to proceed or grow or min max our skills, it's not because I wanna blow up the character or hamper progress or fuck up the game. It's because I'm roleplaying as Emils, or considering how the story is going to proceed after the point we are at. Fact is, this isn't really an RPG, we don't roll dice to determine if we win a fight. When I say Emils should in a terse fashion reveal far more than is appropriate, that's because that's what Emils has done every time they've interacted with anyone for the entire story and I want to roleplay the role of Emails aptly.

As well with decision making, you should be looking at the long term benefit to the story instead of accumulating a set of skills or trying to ace every relationship. Emils socially blundering around is entertaining and begets character growth, conversely constantly asking Emils to act like a normal, well adjusted individual is ignoring the character and their behavior thus far to do what YOU think is correct, instead of what Emails would.

I'm not saying you gotta start agreeing with me or anything, I just feel like a lot of newer suggestors don't seem to understand the quest format.
>>
No. 131726 ID: 528d9b

>>131724
Previous socially blunders were done despite the suggestions, not because of them. I'm not against your approach, but it's not necessary for the autistic behavior to occur.
>>
No. 131727 ID: 3ce8ff

>>131724
>I just feel like a lot of newer suggestors don't seem to understand the quest format.
I would suggest that that means either the format is evolving and/or different quests ask for/require different things from suggestors. That quest runners and suggestors are the two things that define what the quest format 'should' be. I see this more as a culture, and cultures change over time.
>>
No. 131732 ID: ba56e6

>>131724
On the contrary, compelling Slime to act as it has always acted is the opposite of character growth. It suggests that Slime has learned nothing.

It is not our job to be the character. It is our job to guide the character.
>>
No. 131733 ID: 6e6f32

>>131724
Like, don't get me wrong. You have a point.
Normally I'd back you up with it.
The always friendly/well adjusted/optimal path despite established character traits is a general problem /quest/ tends to have.

This problem is negated however, when the quest is run by a skilled author.
Like Radial, for example.

Radial has been expertly translating what we want to do into how Slime [Or Slimes current Avatar:Emils] would do it. Often times we tell slime to do simple social thing, Slime tries, and just ends up failing either failing, or down right misinterpreting our orders.

Slime itself interprets things in a mechanical, almost alien way.
Emils though, is a pretty well established form that acts and reacts in line with half a dozen threads worth of training. Listening to us, being sneaky, not murdering everyone she sees, mimicking others, and trying to appear normal, are all in character.

While people shouldn't attack you for suggestions that depict a socially inept Emils(As they provide options for her inevitable social missteps), Emils is a form that strives to constantly better herself through those around her, and the majority of suggestions should reflect that.
We need only suggest the ideal. Radial can handle the nitty gritty details of what actually happens.
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No. 132029 ID: 19fdd8
File 158118309951.jpg - (51.91KB , 500x372 , sadness.jpg )
132029

>>
No. 132039 ID: 0fae41

What would the equivalent action to crying have been if she was in slime form instead of this blasted meat puppet?
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No. 132046 ID: 015bf2

>>132039
Stomach ache.
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No. 132056 ID: 10c408

>>132039
Depends on the severity but my guess is flattening out perpendicular to the surface she is now conforming to and quivering incessantly.
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