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Psychic powers are more believable than something ignoring the square cube law.
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13522 No. 13522 ID: bf1e7e

This is the thread for BIG DUMB ARGUMENTS. If you want to have a BIG DUMB ARGUMENT, this is the place! If you were having a BIG DUMB ARGUMENT somewhere on the board and it vanished, it might be here!
Expand all images
>>
No. 13523 ID: 4e6eaf

THIS THREAD IS DUMB
>>
No. 13524 ID: 42855f

WELL YOUR MOTHER WAS A CLASSY LADY
>>
No. 13525 ID: 58db22

I FIND THAT HIGHLY DOUBTFUL
>>
No. 13526 ID: 42855f

I DOUBT YOUR SELF-DOUBT AS I HAD RELATIONS WITH HER IN THE FORM OF SEXUAL INTERCOURSE IN THE FUN HOLE LAST NIGHT, TREBEK
>>
No. 13527 ID: 1963d1

DO ALL THE POSTS IN THIS THREAD HAVE TO BE IN ALL CAPS, OR CAN WE TYPE IN LOWER-CASE LETTERS TOO?!
>>
No. 13528 ID: 28e94e

Guys.

Obama = socialism.
>>
No. 13529 ID: 2563d4

WHAT KIND OF STUPID QUESTION IS THAT
YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR ASKING
>>
No. 13531 ID: f4963f

>>13528
AND SOCIALISM = HITLER

ALSO YOUR POST BROKE OUR ALL-CAPS RECORD FUCK YOU

FUCK YOU IN PONY HELL!!
>>
No. 13533 ID: 8e5432

plz 2 move socialism/federal power argument here from "Things worth Posting"
>>
No. 13534 ID: 2563d4

POLITICAL MATTERS ARE MERE TRIVIA FOR THE WORKING CLASSES TO OBSESS OVER IN THE ADORABLY MISGUIDED NOTION THAT THEY CAN AFFECT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE NATION

GENTLEMEN I BRING YOU A TRUE MATTER OF CONSEQUENCE FOR YOUR HEATED DELIBERATION

CHOCOLATE DIGESTIVES, OR RICH TEA BISCUITS?
>>
No. 13535 ID: 28e94e

>>13534
Whatever you say COMRADE
>>
No. 13536 ID: e3f578

EVERYTHING IS JUST SO TERRIBLE
SO TERRIBLE
UGH
>>
No. 13537 ID: d677cc

>>13536
YOU ALWAYS SAY THAT

JUST RECALIBRATE YOUR SCALE, JESUS
>>
No. 13540 ID: e3f578

>>13537
WHAT DO YOU YOU MEAN RECALIBRATE MY SCALE
DOES IT INVOLVE FOOD OR SOME SHIT LIKE THAT? OR ARE YOU IMPLYING GARRUS VAKKARIAN SHOULD TAKE A LOOK AT MY SHIPS GUNS DUE TO HIS INVALUABLE CALIBRATION SKILLS?
>>
No. 13558 ID: 8e5432

>>13543
>It doesn't matter if it's a service, or regulation, or whatever the fuck else you want to call it. It's still a case of the government effectively managing the country
Yes. As you might notice, I agree that the federal government does indeed do a passable job at some things. I do not agree with your apparent belief that the government doing a passable job at one thing automatically means it will do an exemplary job at a different, unrelated thing.

>However, I'm sure Obama could find several precedents and a few loopholes allowing him to pass the healthcare bill.
So you feel that it would be good to violate the constitution in order to affect a universal solution over several discrete ones, despite the fact that the universal solution is, based on past performances, most likely to be inferior in terms of both penetration and fiscal efficiency? For what benefit? Merely because you desire to strip the right of states to make their own choices, thus slightly reducing the available freedoms of the American people? Even if you are of a blithely totalitarian bent and thus find this to be a positive thing, the "benefit" here would be so minor as to be nearly intangible.

>the postal service is pretty much the norm.
No. It is far more successful than most government programs.
>>
No. 13560 ID: 15b51b

>>13558
>No. It is far more successful than most government programs.
Prove it. Prove anything.
>>
No. 13561 ID: 8e5432

>>13560
>Prove it.
If doing so were trivial, I would have. Since it's not, I am unwilling to do so. I don't really have the time or, perhaps more importantly, the inclination. Proving this would require that I pull up a fuckton of information, much of which isn't publicly available. Even then, "successful" is a relative term, so true proof is kind of impossible.

>Prove anything.
Well, I did just prove that constitution thing. That was trivial; all I needed to do was link an online copy of the constitution.
>>
No. 13564 ID: d677cc

>>13540
IT MEANS YOU SHOULD REDEFINE "TERRIBLE" SO IT ISN'T "EVERYTHING" AND THEREFORE HAS A USEFUL DEFINITION

IN OTHER WORDS, PUT IT IN RELATIVE TERMS
>>
No. 13571 ID: 38b610

>>13558
>If doing so were trivial, I would have. Since it's not, I am unwilling to do so. I don't really have the time or, perhaps more importantly, the inclination. Proving this would require that I pull up a fuckton of information, much of which isn't publicly available. Even then, "successful" is a relative term, so true proof is kind of impossible.
This is a ridiculous excuse. Define successful. If you have no definition of success, you cannot call one thing more successful than the other. You must, therefore, have some definition of success.

>Well, I did just prove that constitution thing. That was trivial; all I needed to do was link an online copy of the constitution.
You've proven nothing! Proof requires more than just a link and sitting on your ass waiting for people to do it for you, you know; to claim you have made a proof requires that /you/ actually go out of your way to connect the evidence in your favor so that it will sound correct in /our/ eyes.

>I do not agree with your apparent belief that the government doing a passable job at one thing automatically means it will do an exemplary job at a different, unrelated thing.
Nobody said that but you. Stop putting words in his mouth.

Just because the government doesn't do well on some things doesn't mean it's not going to be /able/ to do well on others. That's the key word: "Able." Nothing is for certain. So consider the fact that we regard ourselves a democracy; it's supposed to be up to us, but then in order for healthcare to be in our hands (the hands of the public) it needs to be under public control as direct as possible. Even if that control is indirect, as it probably will be in a republic where we elect representatives to (hopefully) do what we want, it seems better to me than having no control at all. You're throwing away your own power by decrying a public plan. Having only a variety of private insurers may give you a choice, but they are not obligated to give you the choice you want.

>So you feel that it would be good to violate the constitution in order to affect a universal solution over several discrete ones
Let me quote the Constitution for you (The Necessary and Proper Clause, Article 1, Section 8):
>The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
It says "foregoing powers," referring to the enumerated powers. One of these enumerated powers is that of Congress to pass laws that benefit the "general Welfare," evidenced here (same section):
>The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imports and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
If it is Congress's duty to provide for the welfare of the United States - which also means the welfare of its people, for without the people there would be no United States - is it necessarily harmful to that welfare that we instate a publicly funded insurance plan? I do not think so, which brings me to my next response below.

>despite the fact that the universal solution is, based on past performances, most likely to be inferior in terms of both penetration and fiscal efficiency?
Past performances like, say, Japan? They have public plans available and they are the longest-lived people in the world, on average (last I checked, anyway, though if that statistic has declined then I can't imagine it was by a significant amount). Many European nations, with their public options, live longer than we do. What makes you so sure publicly funded healthcare, or at least insurance in the case of the US, will be so bad, especially considering we, too, will still have private insurers if we go through with it?

Now, mind you, I'm not saying the public plan going through Congress now is necessarily the best plan; what I am saying is that a public plan is not necessarily a bad thing, and if it can do good for the general welfare, then passing it is not out of constitutional bounds. If it was, don't you think that that "lack of penetration" would mean more people in these countries would be sick without care, and therefore the nations' average lifespans would be considerably shorter?
>>
No. 13572 ID: 5f0943

GUYS! GUYS! I THINK YOU ARE ALL MISSING THE POINT HERE!

The amount of posts in this thread is approximately twenty, not counting this post.
Twenty is double the amount of ten, which is double the amount of five.
Five, when multiplied by six hundred is three thousand.

Three thousand times two equals six thousand (3000X2=6000).
Six thousand plus twenty five is 6025, who was guitarist in the band "Dead Kennedys" from 1978-1979.
1979 minus one thousand nine hundred equals 79.

79 minus ten equals 69.
69 is a sexual position. Sex often involves penises.
Penises are phallic objects, bananas are also phallic objects.
69, 6 and 9 are all results of multiplying something with three.

Therefore, three equals banana (3=banana).
>>
No. 13573 ID: 2563d4

>>13571
>sound correct in /our/ eyes
You have made a mistake here, therefore your entire argument is invalid.
>>
No. 13574 ID: e3f578

>>13564
MY PERSPECTIVE CHANGING WOULDN'T MAKE EVERYTHING LESS TERRIBLE, IT'D TURN ME INTO A LYING, SMILING MACHINE IGNORANT OF TERRIBLE LIFE.
COME ON IT IS BASIC FACT LIFE IS PRETTY TERRIBLE. I CAN PROVE IT. FIRST PUT YOUR FINGER ON YOUR NOSE, SPIN THREE TIMES, THEN REFLECT ON YOUR LIFE. YEAH, PRETTY TERRIBLE, ISN'T IT?
>>
No. 13575 ID: 38b610

>>13571
My bad:
>If it was, don't you think that that "lack of penetration" would mean more people in these countries would be sick without care, and therefore the nations' average lifespans would be considerably shorter?
Is related to "not necessarily a bad thing," whereas the part about constitutional validity (and if it can do good for the general welfare, then passing it is not out of constitutional bounds) should have come after.

And,
>Nothing is for certain.
I should not have linked that with to
>consider the fact that we regard ourselves a democracy

>>13573
What? {:v
>>
No. 13576 ID: 3af16b

>>13571
>Define successful.
Serving the intended purpose in an efficient and thorough manner.

>Proof requires more than just a link and sitting on your ass waiting for people to do it for you, you know;
If people are unwilling to read the very constitution that they cite then I am able to prove nothing. That's pretty fucking baseline.
>to claim you have made a proof requires that /you/ actually go out of your way to connect the evidence in your favor so that it will sound correct in /our/ eyes.
Amendment 10 is one fucking line, and it explicitly says exactly what I said that it says. There is no need to "connect" the evidence in my favor, it's sitting right there.
To give an even simpler parallel (which shouldn't be fucking necessary), consider if someone asserted that the sky is red. I then point up and say "look, the sky is blue". You are saying that that would not be proof that the sky is indeed blue. You are wrong and also a faggot.

>Nobody said that but you. Stop putting words in his mouth.
He repeatedly submitted that the federal government has done passable jobs with certain things as evidence that the federal government would do a good job with socialized healthcare. The implication inherent to the fact that he submits this information is that he believes it to be relevant.

>So consider [...] the choice you want.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I meant that we lose control going to federal healthcare over state healthcare. At state level, each state decides independently. That means that the people of one state are not unnecessarily bound by the decisions of those in another state. Furthermore, many states have truer democracy than the federal system. In my own state, for example, I could alter any legislation I cared to (including the State Constitution) by obtaining the signatures of registered voters equal in number to 1/16th of the votes in the previous election, and then my changes would go on the ballot to become law on a simple majority. So I would lose a lot of freedom if the issue became federal. States wherein the people have less access to democracy would of course have less to lose in this respect. But they even then lose the ability to have services independent of their neighbors.

>The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imports and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
This refers to taxation. It does not necessarily mean that the federal government is obligated to act in some specific manner, but could also meant merely that it is able to acquire money to do as described in the rest of the document.
However your interpretation is entirely valid and would probably be the one that the Supreme Court would go with.

>Past performances like, say, Japan?
No, I meant past performances of the US federal government specifically, and not with regards to healthcare in particular. Sorry for being unclear. I am aware that public healthcare works very well in other countries, especially countries that are on a scale similar to the member states of the USA. I think that reinforces my point, rather than hindering it, however.

>What makes you so sure publicly funded healthcare, or at least insurance in the case of the US, will be so bad
I am not sure it will be bad. In fact I think it would probably work out mostly okay for a significant majority of the population. But the same could easily be said for the current healthcare situation. I am not optimistic about magical socialism because our federal government does not tend towards magical performances, and I am unwilling to risk state-guided healthcare programs for this.

>If it was, don't you think that that "lack of penetration" would mean more people in these countries would be sick without care, and therefore the nations' average lifespans would be considerably shorter?
I have some stories I can bust out here. My grandmother, who is Danish and lives in Denmark, once broke her arm in the US. She went to a doctor here, covered by my family's insurance because she was visiting. She went to the doctor that night and was all patched up by morning. She also ended up diagnosed with diabetes, which the socialized medicine of Denmark had failed to notice. When she returned to Denmark, she waited six months for a checkup on the cast that should have happened after a week.
My aunt, who has eye problems, has similar waiting.
And something that was in the news, a man needed treatment to be able to walk again. Something to do with his nerves, I'm not sure of the details as I don't actually read Danish that well and this was a while ago. Anyway, the guy's treatment was not covered by the Danish national healthcare plan. So he asked for donations. He received them, largely from Americans. But because non-social medicine is taxed heavily in Denmark, he gave up half of that money to support a system that would not treat him.
Obviously, this is just one country and anecdotes are not really evidence anyway, but it's worth thinking about, at least.

Also, not all health issues result in decreased lifespan.
>>
No. 13584 ID: 2563d4

>>13576
>And something that was in the news...
You have started a sentence with a conjunction. Your inability to handle straightforward grammar invalidates your entire argument.
>>
No. 13586 ID: f7166d

None of you faggots know jack shit about constitutional law. GODDAMN.
>>
No. 13587 ID: d677cc

>>13522
HEY SEAL YOU FORGOT TO DRAW YOUR CAT
>>
No. 13588 ID: 38b610

>>13576
>You are saying that that would not be proof that the sky is indeed blue.
Sorry, I didn't read your post as clearly as I thought I had.

>I am not optimistic about magical socialism because our federal government does not tend towards magical performances, and I am unwilling to risk state-guided healthcare programs for this.
Nobody said it was going to be a magical process. I don't, at least. The problem isn't so much that people think it would be a great thing or that it wouldn't be, but that people don't seem to realize that they have to be the ones to make it great; without the action of the national public, a federally-operated or at least regulated public healthcare program will not work to their desires.

>I meant that we lose control going to federal healthcare over state healthcare.
>I am aware that public healthcare works very well in other countries, especially countries that are on a scale similar to the member states of the USA. I think that reinforces my point, rather than hindering it, however.
Perhaps so. However, if only certain states benefit (because almost inevitably, some states will not institute public healthcare - at least, not now), then what of the nation as a whole? I cite the Preamble, which I think sums up the purpose of forming the United States, or any national government, fairly well:

>We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The "more perfect Union" stands out to me in this case because I think it is essential: In order for a nation to continue to survive, its people must strive to keep it coherent. If we go for individual state healthcare plans, then it may make it easier to get decent and affordable healthcare for ourselves and those in our own states, but we run the risk of leaving more people behind in those states you described whose people have less power to influence legislation. If we do that, then how does this contribute toward the formation of a more perfect union? I am aware that the above quote also states that "we the People" aim to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves," but if we make individual priviliges for ourselves our highest priority then we run the risk of leaving others behind, which is detrimental to the general welfare, at least.

>Obviously, this is just one country and anecdotes are not really evidence anyway, but it's worth thinking about, at least.

It's a way to sway some hearts, perhaps, but no, it's not really conclusive evidence.

>Also, not all health issues result in decreased lifespan.
Not necessarily, no, but it's telling that these countries are at least better able to deal with life-threatening problems, in the short and long run. And if you look at a list of the top ten causes of death from, say, the WHO's 2004 sheet, the leading causes in the high-income countries are all diseases. (Data table: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/index.html ) In fact, aside from road traffic accidents, disease accounts for the top percentages of deaths in the entire world. The CDC's statistics for US deaths ( http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm ) rank diseases in the top causes of death, aside from accidents; still, accidents account for less deaths than lower respiratory disease. So I think lifespan, while not an extremely accurate indicator of overall health, is a good one still.
>>
No. 13590 ID: 4d7f8c

>>13588
>without the action of the national public

This is the part where the plan goes horribly... horribly wrong. This is the part where ALL socialism goes wrong, people are, by and large, tiny deer raping cocks.
>>
No. 13591 ID: f7166d

>>13588
I just want to point out a few things without quoting excessively and writing a treatise.

Your document does not support the premise that it was originally introduced to support. Everyone dies eventually, and pretty much 100% of the diseases listed for high-income countries are 'old people diseases.' I don't know if you are aware, but countries with socialized systems rarely treat these diseases because they have to allocate resources, and use potential lifespan/likelihood of survival as a measure for determining how resources should be allocated.

Another thing you seem to be saying is that just because there could theoretically be a good health care bill, we should accept this one even if it is bad. This is stupid. Really stupid.

>State v. Federal Problem

Health care deals very closely with the actual population and its needs if it is successful. Why is a solution that is the same across the board instead of tailored to the needs of the people there superior? You seem to think that the democratic process only works on the state instead of the federal level. Keep in mind that the bigger the area you have to administrate, the harder it is to administrate well.
>>
No. 13592 ID: f7166d

>>13588

I meant to say that you seem to think democracy only works on the Federal and not the State level. Switch those in my above post.
>>
No. 13593 ID: 4d7f8c

State level is a good level to decide such things if simple do the the vast expense in 'whoops, looks like we were wrong... sorry bout that whole national economy thing'

While if a system works other states will look and say "hey now... that's a good idea, let's see if we can't do that too?" and maybe it will... or won't but that depends on the local social and political climate.

The Unites States is after all, "the Great Experiment" and in every experiment you need multiple test subjects and even control groups.
>>
No. 13594 ID: a41aaf

>>13534
>RICH TEA
FEEBLE LITTLE DISCS OF HATE.

>HEALTH CARE BITCHING
Still not getting how the Basic Human Rights Fail has continued for so long in the US with so much opposition.
>>
No. 13595 ID: 2563d4

>>13594
NICE TRY, BUT THE CORRECT ANSWER WAS "HOB NOBS"

I WOULD ALSO HAVE ACCEPTED "GINGER NUTS"
>>
No. 13596 ID: 28e94e

>>13594
Because I'm becoming more and more convinced that your average American has his head firmly lodged in his colon.
>>
No. 13598 ID: f4963f

>>13594
>>13596
We stopped being a progressive country long ago. It's sad, really.
>>
No. 13602 ID: 38b610

>>13591
>I meant to say that you seem to think democracy only works on the Federal and not the State level. Switch those in my above post.
No, I don't. See my following response.

>>13591
>Another thing you seem to be saying is that just because there could theoretically be a good health care bill, we should accept this one even if it is bad.
No, I'm saying that /a/ federal healthcare plan better serves the national interests outlined in the Constitution.

>>13593
>The Unites States is after all, "the Great Experiment" and in every experiment you need multiple test subjects and even control groups.
And that is somehow invalidated if a federal plan passes? Even if all states then have public healthcare, that does not rule out the possibility of different subplans for different states. Of course a state like California should be provided for differently under a federal plan than one like, say, Vermont, but that does not change my point that a federal plan better serves the interest of the entire nation. It just requires a different wording of the final legislation.

>>13591
>I don't know if you are aware, but countries with socialized systems rarely treat these diseases because they have to allocate resources, and use potential lifespan/likelihood of survival as a measure for determining how resources should be allocated.
What evidence do you have to support this?

>>13590
>This is the part where the plan goes horribly... horribly wrong. This is the part where ALL socialism goes wrong, people are, by and large, tiny deer raping cocks.
You're projecting far too hard. If the majority of people truly thought like that, the situation would be much worse than it is today. We wouldn't have Medicare or any of the other government-funded and operated institutions that work to keep our country together and prosperous (to a point), the military included. We wouldn't have states to begin with!

Since you seem to believe that socialism is necessarily something wrong, let me make clear the definition of the word. Socialism is that which supports the government, because the government must exert some control over the economy (and socialism is technically defined as supporting common management of the economy) in order to survive. If it didn't, it would have no resources with which to run itself. But I digress somewhat.

More to the point, I don't disagree that on the most basic level, a human only does something because he thinks it will benefit him. What I do disagree with, though, is your apparent belief that no human thinks that helping others will benefit him. Why would we have nations at all, if that were true?

If we did not pay taxes toward a general fund (the national treasury) from which a government we elect can draw to pay people to provide all the necessary goods and services to us, it would be much harder for each person to get all those goods and services. Stable governments also offer protection from crime and from the armed forces of other countries. It is ultimately beneficial to the individual to contribute a share of one's wealth and to involve one's self in the politics of his home nation, to ensure that he will continue to have a safe place to live where he is provided with all his basic needs.

So even though it may be true /now/ that not enough people are willing to push for a good national healthcare plan that serves everyone well, you should not assume that it will always be that way. After all, if you think it is that hopeless, then what reason will you see to try and make it less true?

tl;dr: Keep your spirits up. Untempered cynicism is just as fruitless as untempered optimism. A mix of the two is best.
>>
No. 13603 ID: cf244d

>>13584
I do not constrain my self to the most irrelevant of formal grammar rules because I am not a pretentious English major. My choice to ignore something you find important does not relate to anything else I say.

>>13588
>However, if only certain states benefit (because almost inevitably, some states will not institute public healthcare - at least, not now), then what of the nation as a whole?
What of it? This is not a matter on which we need be unified in the face of a unified opposition. If some people choose not to implement such a program, then why strip that freedom from them?

I notice from your data that the top killers are life-style influenced. The unhealthy lifestyles of Americans unfortunately confounds the data on healthcare.

>>13591
>You seem to think that the democratic process only works on the state instead of the federal level.
Federal democracy is very limited. It only allows the election of a relative few people, who make the actual laws.
Most states in the US have some form of initiative these days, though some require more signatures than others. That allows people to change any law that enough people truly care about. That's a form of democracy which simply doesn't exist at the federal level, and it's the truest form of democracy to ever function on this scale.

>Keep in mind that the bigger the area you have to administrate, the harder it is to administrate well.
This is a very good paraphrasing of something I said less clearly earlier. Thanks for that.

>>13594
Free health care is not a basic human right. It is not inherent to the human condition, as with freedoms of speech, assembly religion, and similar. It is not a protection of anything in particular. It is not even considered a right by the UN's declaration of human rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/) and they think free education is a basic right (and mandatory free education, too, which makes no sense at all).

>>13598
According to Wikipedia, the Progressive Era lasted through the twenties. That's not that long ago. And whether we truly ceased to be progressive according to a more direct definition of the word is something that could still be debated. But any such debate would essentially boil down to a mess of semantics.
>>
No. 13604 ID: e3f578

>>13598
YEAH IT'S NOT LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ISN'T PROGRESSIVE AT ALL. NO, THE US IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHO IS DOING JACK SHIT FOR THE FURTHERING OF HUMANITY.

JUST WHAT IS WITH ALL THIS BETTERMENT NONSENSE. WHO SAID WE HAVE TO BETTER OURSELVES. WHAT'S WRONG WITH STAGNATING IT ISN'T HURTING ANYBODY AND SURE DOES TAKE A LOT LESS EFFORT. WHAT DO WE GET OUT OF BETTERING OURSELVES?
>>
No. 13605 ID: 38b610

>>13603
>If some people choose not to implement such a program, then why strip that freedom from them?
Strip what freedom? Most developed nations with public healthcare have both public and private plans available. Having a public one does not necessitate that the private options go away. And regarding freedom, I want the freedom to buy my healthcare, or at least my health insurance, from the state. By your logic, I think you helping to keep me from having that freedom.

>I notice from your data that the top killers are life-style influenced. The unhealthy lifestyles of Americans unfortunately confounds the data on healthcare.
That may be, but does that change it drastically?

>What of it? This is not a matter on which we need be unified in the face of a unified opposition.
Yes, it is. It might not be a wholly unified opposition, but if we don't try to provide the best possible for everyone in our nation, then we run the risk of falling behind our competitors. That doesn't just mean healthcare necessarily, but everything essential to our prosperity. China, for one, seems poised to overtake us - we already have very little leverage over them, not only because they are also a superpower but because we are heavily mutually invested in each other, and we have moved most of our non-high-tech manufacturing base to it and the surrounding developing Asian nations. If we do not do everything to ensure that we have a healthy, strong workforce to compete with such countries, then we will surely fall behind them, sooner or later.

And while that in itself may not seem to tie in directly with public healthcare, consider that if we allow each state to go its own way, then it defeats the purpose of - and therefore degrades - the union. While I don't disagree that each state should be provided for differently, I do disagree that we shouldn't all have to come to a unified decision on whether or not to provide healthcare at all. Regarding what you said about the federal government - no, our federal system is far from perfect, and it may well be further from the democratic ideal than the state system. But while the United States would be nothing without its individual states, the individual states would not be anywhere near as influential, both politically and economically, in today's world, if they were not expected to come to agreement on something as important to the continued prosperity of their people as healthcare as one Union of States.
>>
No. 13606 ID: cf244d

>>13602
>Of course a state like California should be provided for differently under a federal plan than one like, say, Vermont,
Under a federal plan, it cannot be.

>Socialism is that which supports the government, because the government must exert some control over the economy
This is either a totally false statement indicating absolutely no understanding of the issue at hand, or phrased so poorly that it appears to be.

>If it didn't, it would have no resources with which to run itself.
Except taxation. And bonds. That's worked okay for quite a while now.
>>
No. 13607 ID: 2563d4

>>13603
>pretentious English major
You have made an ad-hominem attack, ergo your entire argument is invalid. Also you have an ugly face.
>>
No. 13608 ID: cf244d

>>13602
Oh, and technically it's defined as supporting public ownership of enterprise. Seems like a small difference, but it can matter quite a bit.

>>13605
>Strip what freedom?
The freedom to choose your own government policy.
>And regarding freedom, I want the freedom to buy my healthcare, or at least my health insurance, from the state.
Then vote for that in your state. You currently have the freedom to do so, because it is still a state issue.

>That may be, but does that change it drastically?
I don't know. I don't have the numbers required to find out, and I don't think they'd really be possible to generate in any concrete way. If we factor that in, it could work out that the predominance of private health care actually causes Americans to have a better life expectancy over all. Or it could turn out that they're about the same. Or it could turn out that despite what the FDA and health groups say, the US lifestyle doesn't really effect life expectancy at all, and the entirety of the difference is from health care. But there's no way of knowing, so you also can't use this data as proof that socialized health care is certainly better for people overall.

>US vs. them
That's not really the international system these days.

>And while that in itself may not seem to tie in directly with public healthcare, consider that if we allow each state to go its own way, then it defeats the purpose of - and therefore degrades - the union.
The purpose of the union is, in layman's terms, to stick together so that we can not be taken out individually.
Healthcare is not relevant to that.

>But while the United States would be nothing without its individual states, the individual states would not be anywhere near as influential, both politically and economically, in today's world, if they were not expected to come to agreement on something as important to the continued prosperity of their people as healthcare as one Union of States.
No. They would not be considered as influential if they did not band together on matters of military or trade. Healthcare is a purely domestic issue, and people outside of America do not really give a fuck about that. At least as far as international politics are concerned, I'm sure there's plenty of idealists scattered around the globe who feel that their own position is right and Americans are utterly stupid for not agreeing with them.
>>
No. 13609 ID: 38b610

>>13606
>This is either a totally false statement indicating absolutely no understanding of the issue at hand, or phrased so poorly that it appears to be.
Perhaps it is the second one. I shall try to make myself clear.

>Except taxation. And bonds. That's worked okay for quite a while now.
Those are means by which the government meddles in the economy to acquire revenues for itself. If you don't think that taxation and selling and buying bonds has any effect on, say, disposable income, inflation, or recession, then you're kidding yourself.

Socialism is by definition the theory that the "means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" - I cite the Oxford Dictionary, but I doubt it will be much different if you look for the definition from any other source. It is essentially the belief that the community (i.e. government, especially in a democratic nation) should interfere with the economy for its own interests.

Now, to go back to taxation and bonds, both of those are ways of interfering in the economy that are necessary for a government to provide for itself. A government has to meddle in its economy in some way that could be considered a tax or a tribute, or else it wouldn't be able to get the revenues it needed. That is why I say that any socialist action is necessarily one that benefits the state, because to be a socialist is to support regulation of the economy for the benefit of the community.

>Under a federal plan, it cannot be.
Why the hell not? Why can't a federal plan make provisions to create different subplans for the individual states? Why must a federal plan be so hopeless to you?
>>
No. 13610 ID: 38b610

>>13608
>The freedom to choose your own government policy.
If I had the ultimate freedom to choose my own government policy then I'd be living in my own damn utopia right now!

Nobody truly has that freedom, in the end. It's something to be striven for, but I think that while we're doing that we need to start making sure we have the infrastructure in place so that we /can/ strive for these things. Providing for healthcare is providing for one part of that infrastructure.

>I don't know… But there's no way of knowing, so you also can't use this data as proof that socialized health care is certainly better for people overall.
That's fucking bullshit! If there was no way of knowing then why bother having a fucking healthcare system in the first place? If there's no way of knowing then that implies that we can't expect consistent results from any healthcare system, which is obviously not true if you compare the systems of the developed world and the third world. Even if a state healthcare system is better than a federal one there has to be a way to /know/, or at least get close to knowing for sure.

>The purpose of the union is, in layman's terms, to stick together so that we can not be taken out individually.
>Healthcare is not relevant to that.
Yes, it is. If we cannot provide healthcare then we can be taken out individually, by disease and injury. It may not seem like much to you, but if Americans lead as unhealthy lifestyles as you say, then it must be important. If an (un)healthy lifestyle doesn't have to do with disease or injury, then what the hell does it have to do with?

>Healthcare is a purely domestic issue, and people outside of America do not really give a fuck about that.
Other people outside of America may not care about it directly but if we don't take care of our domestic issues, we won't be able to handle ourselves on an international scale. If domestic issues were so unimportant to our standing in the world, don't you think we'd be arguing about them just a tad less?

>That's not really the international system these days.
You're fooling yourself, then. The United States must keep up in the world or it will be trammeled upon. It will at least lose its position of relative power over other nations. That's the way life works; the strongest get their way.

I guess what I'm really meaning to ask you is this: Do you want to become another country's bitch?
>>
No. 13612 ID: cf244d

>>13609
What the Oxford dictionary said (and what other dictionaries say) is not the same as what you said it meant directly after. Of note, taxation and all that are not considered socialism under the dictionary definition, while your definition does include that.
As the meaning of a word is based on common consensus, and the meaning supplied by everyone (including the source you cite) disagrees with the meaning you allege is correct, I submit that your definition is wrong.

>Why can't a federal plan make provisions to create different subplans for the individual states?
Because then it wouldn't be a federal plan. It would be a bunch of state plans (and would have whatever downside people apparently thing a state plan has, though no one has yet supplied one) but instead of allowing people to choose democratically according to their own needs, it's decided by people in Washington who are less likely to have any idea of what would be most advantageous to the citizens in question. Not due to any incompetence or anything (or at least not primarily), but just because it's not their job to know.

>If I had the ultimate freedom to choose my own government policy then I'd be living in my own damn utopia right now!
If you were infinitely competent, and had access to infinite resources, then yes, you'd be living in a utopia. Unfortunately, everything is limited by reality. Even freedom; you don't have the personal ability to rule the nation by yourself because that would invalidate the freedoms of others.

>That's fucking [...] knowing for sure
Sorry if I was unclear. There's no way of knowing how much of the difference (if any) is due to healthcare and how much is due to lifestyle. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's utterly impossible to perceive a difference in different payment models for healthcare at all.
It is quite apparent that both private healthcare and public healthcare are superior to no healthcare.

>Yes, it is. [...] have to do with?
"we" refers to the states in this case, not individuals. Sorry for being unclear.

>Other people outside of America may not care about it directly but if we don't take care of our domestic issues, we won't be able to handle ourselves on an international scale.
This is true. But failing to take care of domestic issues in this sense refers to such things as civil unrest. The fact that people disagree on policy is not internationally relevant.
>If domestic issues were so unimportant to our standing in the world, don't you think we'd be arguing about them just a tad less?
No.

>You're fooling yourself, then. The United States must keep up in the world or it will be trammeled upon. It will at least lose its position of relative power over other nations. That's the way life works; the strongest get their way.
If that was true, all other countries would be being "trammeled upon" right now. Since that is clearly not the case, it is apparent that you are wrong. In fact, multiple countries can exist without people breaking out the trammels.

>I guess what I'm really meaning to ask you is this: Do you want to become another country's bitch?
If being their bitch just means that they can say they've got some numbers higher than us, I honestly don't give a fuck.
>>
No. 13615 ID: db9097

>Rationing

It's the reason we didn't sign the Int. Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. Article 12 requires "–―The States Parties . . . recognize the right to everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health."

How the hell do you think pure socialized free health care systems work? There are limited resources that must be distributed to everyone in your population. It is an ethical violation of the doctor to waste medical resources that could better be used elsewhere. You have to ration as an attendant circumstance of any such system.

The exact opposite of here, where you can basically get any healthcare that you can pay for. A patient would likely sue the shit out of a doctor if he could pay for treatment and the doctor refused on those grounds.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we ALREADY have a federal system in place, but it is minimal and only for certain classes of people (medicare/medicaid). Also, if you're poor, you can get emergency healthcare and just not pay.

The real issue with health care in America has to do with the way doctors interact with insurance companies. We need more insurance reform, not a federal plan.

You seem to think a federal plan is the only way to have an effective system. Why is that?

I would be fine with a federal plan if it were to actually cater to the needs of local populations and was cost-effective.
>>
No. 13616 ID: 15b51b

The government should keep its filthy hands off my police and fire departments. I should have the right to choose what, if any, police or fire protection I want.
>>
No. 13618 ID: 38b610

Well, I'm down for the count. Cruxador, even if my definitions are wrong, you seem incapable of allowing yourself to reconcile them with your own even for a moment, if only to understand what the hell I'm saying. I was originally responding to the poster who said all "socialism" fails by describing all the socialist programs that we have implemented with success (to a degree, for success in approaching some ideal is always to a degree). The dictionary definition may not include "taxation and all that" by name, but I do believe that those things fall under the kind of economic meddling implied by communal regulation of production, distribution, and exchange. And if they were not intended to be for the government's benefit in some way, then what were they for? Everyone ultimately serves themselves, you know. Say my definition is wrong all you like, it's not going to change my point. And before you go calling me a hypocrite for doing the same thing you're doing to the other poster I was responding to - correcting his definition of a word - remember that unlike you, I actually responded to his point, rather than merely try to put him down in a game of semantics one-upmanship.

To address your point about taking us out one by one - even if you were talking about the states, I think my point still stands that we are more likely to be taken out one by one by unhealthiness of any kind if we do not strive to provide the best care possible. The Union is more than just states, you know - it is people.

I'm not sure at the moment how to appeal to you on the trammeling argument, though I remain convinced that I am correct. To answer your concern (or rather, lack thereof) regarding domestic vs. international issues, however, while healthcare may not be /as/ pressing an issue as civil unrest - which I see no reason to believe, since there are no ongoing large-scale protests I am aware of that threaten our quasi-democratic regime, unless you mean politicians in Congress who hold up the lawmaking process endlessly until they can ransom what they want out of each other, in which case I could agree - it is an issue that could certainly lead to civil unrest, if allowed to go too far. And while I'm aware of how unlikely that is, at least for the time being, I don't believe that makes it something we can just brush under the table forever and expect nobody important to give a damn.

I still don't believe a nominally federal plan couldn't have state subplans, if handled correctly. You have given me no evidence that any federal plan would necessarily be handled only by people in Washington. Even if it is most likely to be that way under the current system, there is a reason we call ourselves a democracy: It is that we are supposed to have the power to change the system. Even if that change is improbable, we are obligated to try if we consider ourselves a democracy, because democracy is useless if nobody has the will to try and effect change.

Even if there is no way to truly know how much of "the difference" is attributable to healthcare and how much to lifestyle, there must be a way to get as close to knowing for certain as possible. I'm not sure how I can tell you you're completely wrong there, because it's certainly true that some things are improbable. But improbability doesn't put something outside the realm of possibility, and it seems even more that way to me for this particular case when you don't give me an actual reason for why we can't come close to knowing. To dismiss it outright as wholly impossible or improbable (it makes no difference, since you're dismissing it anyway) speaks of a fatalist bent to your thinking that I believe marks the difference between how you and I operate.

I also have yet to hear you prove, beyond significant doubt, a single point about healthcare to me. When I press you for evidence, you dodge my inquiry with a rambling statement along the lines of "I can't/don't want to go to the trouble to try and prove that, so it must be wrong," a claim which you never back up with supporting evidence. I suppose that would be too hard for you, though.

db9097, while it may be true that other countries' public healthcare systems ration resources and services (something that I will pull a Cruxador on for now and not bother trying to prove or disprove), is that any reason for us not to try and push for a system that is better? Not a wholly public system necessarily, just /a/ better system. I think we could be better than them, if only we tried - which isn't to imply that the process of trying is going to be a "magical" one, no. Anything we try is going to carry the weight of risk with it. But if we never took risks, we'd never get anywhere in life. Maybe insurance reform is the way to go; maybe not. And I'm not saying a federal plan is the only way to have an effective system; I'm just saying it makes the most sense to do so in the context of the stated aims of the Constitution that Cruxador seems to hold dear.

Your point is also invalidated by the fact that most countries with public plans also have private ones, so it's not as though the two are mutually exclusive. Maybe it will mean the private plans are taxed more heavily, as in Cruxador's case of Denmark; maybe not. Is that such a bad thing, though? Again, you have yet to prove to me beyond significant doubt that it is: 1. Impossible to have a public plan without getting rid of (or significantly taxing) any private plan, and 2. That if we don't have a private plan (or if the plans are significantly taxed) that it is necessarily something /bad/.

Consider me out, for now. I may come back every now and then, but I am not going to continue to argue on a point by point basis in so pedantic a manner as to quote specific passages of your post and try to respond to each one separately. It's obviously not helping me here (though I expect I will get a few smartasses pointing out that it's not just the /way/ I write, it's the core /ideas/ behind what I'm writing that are wrong. Maybe that's true, but if it is, I have yet to see it). Anyway, ta-ta.
>>
No. 13619 ID: 4a3a02

>>13618

I guess I was just never clear on exactly what you were advocating, and you seemed to make arguments that basically said any sort of federal plan was always superior while refusing to admit that that could potentially not the case.

Cruxador is a stupid ass, but you also never actually responded to any of my questions about why you think that a Federal solution of any kind is the only reasonable one. I mean, if you agree that a plan that is specifically tailored to each state is superior, why would you even be against state plans?

I am for the most efficient solution that actually works, whether it is State, Federal, or Private. Also, the existence of a private system on top of a government one doesn't 'invalidate' my argument at all, because I wasn't arguing one way or the other in regards to rationing. You just seemed to be unaware that those systems worked that way.

We discussed it in detail in my Bioethics survey course in law school. It is the area of expertise for that particular professor. Looking through my slides and notes, I don't have actual citations for you, sorry, but I did check.
>>
No. 13620 ID: 6ba8b3

I hope you people don't believe that we won't treat everything or that we let patients die because of "resources"? I mean it's sometimes ridiculous to what extent we go. We treat everything. I'm sure I just misinterpeted.

As for Denmark I suspect somebody really fucked up or their system is broken. You really don't have to wait that long. As for cost effectiveness you get what your government pays for and prevention is always preferable to treatment after. Guess which one gets cuts when the bad days roll over even though it ends costing more that way. That said it took time to get it right and my country is tiny compared to yours with less politics. Good luck with that if you intend to go through with it.

Since they come up so often on tv shows I must ask. Bankruptcy and lifetime of debt because of medical bills true or false? Not getting treatment or only partial because you can't pay? Seems a bit extreme.
>>
No. 13622 ID: d677cc

>>13618
Cruxador?

Definitonal argument?

Couldn't possibly be!
>>
No. 13623 ID: 6ba8b3

>>13620

Nevermind, did a google because I finally got curious. Your system sucks that is all.
>>
No. 13624 ID: 15b51b

The US health care system is balls, but is compensated for by a campaign of misinformation which claims that people basically lay bleeding in the streets in other countries. People dying of thirst in overcrowded hospital waiting rooms, etc.
>>
No. 13625 ID: 6176b5

>>13620
>bankruptcy etc
Yeah, that happens sometimes. It's not normal though. Most people have health insurance, so if something expensive hasppens, they're covered. For people that can't afford insurance, there's the existing federal programs. People are never turned away for emergency procedures, though poorer people might sometines choose not to go to the doctor for something minor in order to save money. Usually this is the sort of shit most folks would ignore because it's totally trivial. I imagine bankruptcy allegedly due to medical charges is generally also due to existing financial troubles.
I've never met anybody with this problen, though.
>>
No. 13637 ID: d7be35

>>13624
Which is not too surprising, considering the other countries don't have electricity, still use horses as main transportation method and worship heathen deities, like the Pope, Allah or Lenin.
>>
No. 13638 ID: 2563d4

>>13637
Some of them even have nepotistic dictatorships installed at the top of their government!
>>
No. 13695 ID: 15b51b

>>13625
>Yeah, that happens sometimes. It's not normal though.
"Not normal" insofar as your standard medical visit does not result in a bankruptcy. But it is extremely common. 60% of all bankruptcies in the United States are due to medical costs. This is a figure which cannot be emphasized enough.
>>
No. 13735 ID: 977a5a

>>13695
Just to play devil's advocate, since this is the big dumb argument thread, what is a "proper" percentage of bankruptcies to be caused by medical bills? How should it compare to foreclosures, failed business ventures, credit cards, college, and whatever other sources of debt I may be forgetting?

Percentages don't really say much of anything unless they are given in a "number of incidences per 10000 citizens" style.
>>
No. 13736 ID: 383006

>>13695
Also, cites please? From what I read, 40% of people who filed for bankruptcy in the past two years had a serious medical condition. That doesn't mean that's the reason they filed for bankruptcy.
>>
No. 13737 ID: bf1e7e

>>13735

It also doesn't really account for how many people are already in crippling debt and on the verge of bankruptcy before it happens because americans can't manage finances to save their fucking lives (literally sometimes!)
>>
No. 13904 ID: e83bae

Also it is very difficult to type perfectly on a cell phone.
>>
No. 13908 ID: f7166d

Eh, I'm bored. Recognizing differences in gender and race is important, and not doing it is an impediment to modern medical testing.

This has nothing to do with thinking less of individuals because of their race or gender.
>>
No. 13909 ID: 28e94e

>>13905
I'm surprised that so many people are falling for such an obvious troll
>>
No. 13912 ID: 28e94e

>>13911
(I was referring to Technomancer, not you)
>>
No. 13915 ID: cf244d

>>13912
I see. That was unclear to me. I apologize for misunderstanding.

>>13913
Though I frown on banning people for their views, banning for such arbitrary shit is entirely acceptable to me.

Also banning for ban evasion should be a given, it's not like you need to say that.
>>
No. 13922 ID: 1854db

>>13915
>>13911
Ugh.

Shut up, troll. My god, you are being so obvious.
>>
No. 13924 ID: 2563d4

>>13922
This is the Big Dumb Arguments thread.
Getting mad at things posted in it is kind of a waste of mad.
>>
No. 13925 ID: cf244d

>>13922
I assure you, this is no troll. If you actually give a fuck, you could go into IRC and ask people if my opinions and statements seem in keeping with my general behavior over the last however long it is now that this place has been around. I'm sure there will be plenty of folks who will answer in the affirmative.

Though if you care that much, you're a big dumb faggot.
>>
No. 13926 ID: e3f578

I don't think I've seen Crux fuck around that much, admittedly. But he can troll without trolling, somehow. He's a mystical nerd-cowboy that inspires anger wherever he goes.
>>
No. 13934 ID: cf244d

>>13926
Not anywhere I go. You are overstating the case. Sometimes people become irate in my presence, but it's not like everywhere I go, people are exploding in rage at the merest touch of my shadow. Although that conjures a pretty badass image to mind.
This is probably related to my tendency to be right, and unassailably so, even when faced with mistaken beliefs which are held very deeply.
Also people tend to assume that any contention leveraged indicates that I am against everything they stand for. I don't know why that is. I guess people are silly.
And of course kids do tend to get worked up about shit. But most people around here are old enough not to, and those that aren't yet will be eventually.

But mostly people are not mad.
>>
No. 13937 ID: 43d730

>>13934
>Shadow of Rage
This is totally my next character in a supers game.
The yells of FUUUUUUU- shall herald his arrival, and the floodlight mounted behind him shall turn all villainous plans to ruin.
>>
No. 13939 ID: e973f4

>>13934
>my tendency to be right, and unassailably so, even when faced with mistaken beliefs which are held very deeply
Excuse me, you are not Seal.
>>
No. 13942 ID: 2eac65

>>13934
It has nothing to do with you being right about anything. People simply don't like it when people act like jerks. There's more than one way to make a point, and just because you think you have a point doesn't mean you can pick any one you want. Politeness still applies to the "right" side.
>>
No. 13943 ID: 2eac65

>>13934
It has nothing to do with you being right (or "unassailable") about anything. People just don't like it when people act like jerks. There's more than one way to make a point, and just because you have one to make doesn't mean you can choose any method you want. Politeness still applies.
>>
No. 13944 ID: 2563d4

>>13943
If you can make it frustrating enough to argue with you that nobody bothers, then you win the argument and are right by default. This is how the Internet works.
>>
No. 13948 ID: 1854db

>>13944
And that is basically all that Cruxador does.

Can we all agree just to never talk to him? Ever? I have yet to see a situation where talking to him led to good things.
>>
No. 13956 ID: 2eac65

>>13948
That would just be unfair. There's no reason to exclude him when he's not belittling people. My policy is "you are who you are at the moment"; when you act like a jerk, you're a jerk, and when you act nice, you're a nice guy. It's easier and more practical than keeping track of grudges.
>>
No. 13970 ID: f5e4b4

>>13967

Independently of the reason you got banned in the first place, you keep getting banned and your threads and posts deleted for ban evasion. Wait for your ban to expire or contact the mods in the IRC channel if you want to try and appeal your ban.

And a mod only needs a single click to ban your last proxy and delete all your posts. It's not like we're gonna get tired of it.
>>
No. 13972 ID: 2563d4

>>13971
Protip: That's not the mod that banned you.

Now kindly fuck off.
>>
No. 13973 ID: bf1e7e

>>13971

>My ban evasion has happened because I don't think it's for me to be banned for the original, ambiguous reason.

Nope. You even said that it was reasonable.

I was even going to decrease the duration because you were a fair sport about it after it was explained, then you just 'decided to not be banned anymore' so I reset the timer instead.

I also like how you talk a big game until you get called on it, then backpedal like crazy. Classy stuff.
>>
No. 13974 ID: 70d9eb

>>13971
Dodging bans without talking to the mod is not reasoning with the mod.
In fact, what you did was agree to the ban and say "Okay, okay. Fine, I guess I can live with that" and then you started evading it. You didn't contest it at all.
>>
No. 13975 ID: cf244d

>>13967
I'm pretty sure you were largely banned for being a faghat, not for your actual opinions. You suggested that your views were right solely because they were unpopular, for one thing.
Also not that I've espoused similar views in this very thread, and not been banned.

>>13969
I am pretty sure that such petty and pointless shit was not the cause of his ban.
Furthermore, your statement that nobody wants him is in error - his art is appreciated, even if his rhetoric isn't.

>>13971
>Okay, for starters, my original ban was placed out of personal bias and misunderstanding.
I am pretty sure there was no misunderstanding and little bias. But who cares? You're banned for a fucking week.

>My ban evasion has happened because I don't think it's for me to be banned
You're wrong. This is a privately run website, you have no right to post here. There is no claim made that moderation follows any strict rules. You can be banned for whatever a moderator wants, and it remains totally valid.

>Now I'm permabanned
It amuses me that you don't even bother to check your ban duration. It doesn't amuse me nearly enough that I would approve of it, though.
>>
No. 14059 ID: 9d07d9

It's funny how whenever someone starts talking about tgchan on 4chan and posts a link to the thread on IRC, everyone drops their false civility in that thread and starts insulting each other under the guise of anonymity.
>>
No. 14062 ID: 2563d4

>>14059
>False civility
I take it you don't go to the IRC channels, then.
>>
No. 14063 ID: f5e4b4

>>14062

It's more like they say under anonimity what they don't have the balls to say under their real IDs or nicks in the IRC.

We used to have the anon thread for that, now that we don't have one anymore, people go back to /tg/ to rip off the people they don't like here. But yeah, this isn't news.
>>
No. 14066 ID: 15b51b

>>14059
What's all this about? I did a search for 'tgchan' on that easymodo archive and didn't find anything except that OVERLORD guy mentioning his ban, Technomancer linking images, and anon claiming we have fapfics instead of quests.
>>
No. 14069 ID: 2563d4

>>14066
I think the most recent one was actually on /co/ and had started as a thread about one of Weaver's characters (Chain Chomp or something?) before getting derailed by "where is Weaver now?"

>we have fapfics instead of quests
This is pretty ironic given most of the sincere (and horrifically bad) attempts at erotic fiction on this site (i.e. not Driblis' one-paragraph joke ones) seem to come from fresh 4chan refugees.

But maybe they made the mistake of somehow only reading Blake Quest and Pink Dragon and Venji Quest.
>>
No. 14070 ID: 70d9eb

>>14066
People greatly exaggerating.
>>
No. 14073 ID: 59fe6f

Tdchnomancer is using this site to link his images back to /tg/? Okay, that needs to stop.
>>
No. 14074 ID: 2563d4

>>14073
The last I knew the mods were cool with 4chan/tg/ drawfags using tgchan/draw/ as a NSFW image hosting site.
>>
No. 14075 ID: f5e4b4

>>14073

More like you need to stop being a baby. A baby behind a proxy, even.
>>
No. 14076 ID: 885b2a

>>14075
I'm not behind a proxy, but thanks for playing :V
>>
No. 14077 ID: cf244d

>>14073
Why the fuck would you have a problem with that?
>>
No. 14078 ID: 15b51b

>>14069
>This is pretty ironic given most of the sincere (and horrifically bad) attempts at erotic fiction on this site (i.e. not Driblis' one-paragraph joke ones) seem to come from fresh 4chan refugees.
Yeah. There was also an anon or two saying that we "turned full circle" by "driving people out for posting stuff we don't like."

Tis a silly place.

>>14073
Why?
>>
No. 14079 ID: cc04a7

>>14077
>>14078
Because there's such a thing as reputation.

"But anon! This is tgchan! We already have a tarnished reputation, and besides, this is the internet! Who cares?"

We should care. Not because we're not a bunch of perverts, furries, etc, but because that shouldn't be the only thing that people see from this website if they don't already visit here. If we already have a bad reputation, and then enforce what people think the site is about (IE: fapfics and other fetish shit) by allowing people to use our site for those purposes and then post all about it on /tg/, we are never going to see any growth because our reputation will remain "That place is a shithole."

How many quest authors have found the site in the past year? Lonelyworld? Flynnmerk? Maybe four or five people have actually joined the site and contributed things. We are going to see less than that and especially less people who have any merit to what they draw if we willingly let people advertise ourselves as a complete and utter shithole that embraces this sort of thing.

We don't need to do anything to try to right our reputation on /tg/, nor do we need to actively go over there and try to say "No way guys, tgchan is awesome, look at Journey and Bitequest and shit!" All I'm saying is that we shouldn't willingly allow ourselves to be advertised as a shithole haven for the dregs of /tg/ deemed too crazy and shitty for even them, and a complete and utter hugbox towards any freak that can't post their shit on /d/ or /tg/.

It's for the good of the site that this does not continue and that Technomancer finds some other place to post his art.
>>
No. 14080 ID: f88f02

>>14079
I salute you.
>>
No. 14081 ID: ff5210

>>14079
I doubt the majority of the regulars care about reputation or getting new faces in. Seems to me they are pretty happy with their shitty injokes and drawing porn of each others characters.

The thing with Lonely World and the old guard greeting him by drawing porn of his main character was pretty symptomatic for that. Sure, it turned out ok in that case, but I still don't get how anyone could have considered a appropriate thing to do.
>>
No. 14082 ID: 6b2b68

>>14081
That was because of a joke/meme that started instantly though.

And even if some of the regulars don't care about reputation or growth, they should, lest the site be overrun with people like Flynnmerk, Technomancer and their cronies. It was bad enough when Reaver was around, we don't need more people like them. If left completely unchecked it could well be the death of the site, when quality quests are pushed to the wayside and stuff like Ratsturbation Quest becomes the most popular quest. It's not the community that started this site, and it's not the community that this site should try to maintain.
>>
No. 14083 ID: 70d9eb

>>14082
Were you even here when the site started, anonymous? Saying "It's not the community that started this site" is pretty absurd because the community absolutely started the site, and I don't even know what to say to your slippery slope argument, especially considering the first popular quest that got TGChan actually going and being active was Rape Quest.
>>
No. 14084 ID: d70df4

>>14082
I am going to tell you this once. You are a fucking idiot. Communities decide if a site is worth going to.

You know why Youtube was sold to Google? Because there is a massive amount of people that go to that site. That is the community that decided the site was worth going to. Without them, there would be no Youtube.

You do realize that this site is entirely community driven, right? That the posters are the community? That by posting here saying that the community didn't start this site is something a fucking imbecile would say? Do you know who runs this site? It is Dylan. He runs this site without donations and probably on his own time. He adds features for the community to use like colored text and those new thumbnails like :pomf:.

He made this site because he wanted a place for people to go from /tg/.
>>
No. 14085 ID: 2563d4

>>14079
Well, I don't think my opinion on this is really worth a damn, but since this is the Big Dumb Arguments Thread: mostly well-said.
>>
No. 14086 ID: f5e4b4

>>14079
>>14082

Nah, the site has always been full of fetishists, perverts and kinks than in any most social circles would make us look like sick fucks. Technomancer isn't even the worst thing that this site has seen, at all. I personally find that the fetishists don't shit up the place as much as the people trying to kick away those artists they personally don't like, using "reputation" as an excuse. Or those who think they should decide who is worthy of staying here and who is not.

>It's not the community that started this site, and it's not the community that this site should try to maintain.

Boy, selective memory is such a sweet thing. Easy to forget the myriad of weird porn that came since even Rubyquest, or the ocean of shitty and/or creepy quests flooding the front page during the first months of the board. Those were the golden ages!
>>
No. 14087 ID: 6b2b68

>>14084
Um, I think you misread my entire post.

I'm saying that people who enjoy Flynnmerk, Technomancer and others are not the same community as the old guard that started the site, who value quality storytelling in quests over porn shenanigans played straight. They are a community of people who wouldn't know a good story if it hit them in the face. They are people who would legitimately praise Silvermoon and think it's awesome instead of laughing at it or finding it funny.

The two quests commonly praised as the best of the best are Journey and Bitequest, neither of which are based around fetishes or porn. If you would like to see the community change to where Blakequest and Valley of Love's retard-sex chapter are the most widely praised things around, be my guest, but I for one would rather see the community stay the same, encouraging inventive ideas and just plain good storytelling. This is NOT to say I want to see the community remain stagnant, but that we need to have some values to hold onto. Basic storytelling, art, characters, you name it, we need to hold onto what made this site great and what Bitequest, Journey and others examplified as the epitomes of what a good quest should be.
>>
No. 14088 ID: 6b2b68

>>14086
The weird porn came out of Rubyquest, but it's not what rubyquest was about. There is a major difference here.
>>
No. 14089 ID: f88f02

>>14087
You're being silly, now.

For every Blake Quest, there's been something like, say, Herbert vs Happiness. For every VoL, there's been a Tales from Meigara. We are not falling down any slippery slope. THis is the way things have ALWAYS been, since rape quest, since surprise sex quest, since bg, since forever. And, miraculously, we aren't gone yet! Does that mean that people who dislike fetishism-as-story and blatant fapquests are bad? No. It means they have as much of a voice as anyone else here. That your posts haven't been deleted and you haven't been banned is a pretty clear sign of that, don't you think?
>>
No. 14090 ID: 6b2b68

>>14087
>>14088
This is also not to say we need to kick out people like Flynnmerk, Vyt or others, but strongly encourage them to improve and maybe help them along the way. If they flat out refuse to improve, refuse help and refuse criticism, that's when we send them to /brofist/.
>>
No. 14091 ID: 6b2b68

>>14089
Yeah, but see, for Valley of Love, Surprise Sex Quest and others, they didn't bring people to the site specifically to post in their threads and theirs alone, which is what we are starting to see happen.

Honestly, the only actual problem we have now is Technomancer posting the links to /tg/, which is advertising tgchan as a place to find his art, which is not the sort of "advertising" we want.
>>
No. 14092 ID: c5cc97
File 130144931935.jpg - (220.56KB , 902x755 , NoFist.jpg )
14092

>>14090
>that's when we send them to /brofist/.

Doesn't look like that'll be happening anytime soon.
>>
No. 14093 ID: 07416a

>>14087
You did NOT just compare Valley of Love with Blake Quest.
>>
No. 14094 ID: 6b2b68

>>14093
The retard-sex chapter specifically, yes. It's up there with Ratsturbation, Pink Dragon, Blakequest and Sevi in the "worst things quest has to offer" category, in my humble opinion. As far as dating sim quests go it's probably done better than any other and was probably better written than any other, but that still doesn't make the quest good overall.
>>
No. 14095 ID: 07416a

>>14094
Ratsturbation was hilarious though.
>>
No. 14096 ID: 6b2b68

>>14095
No... it really wasn't. It was just awful.
>>
No. 14098 ID: 15b51b

>>14094
>The retard-sex chapter specifically, yes.
I don't think there was any actual indication she was retarded.
>>
No. 14099 ID: f88f02

>>14098
oh boy here we go
>>
No. 14103 ID: cf244d

>>14078
>There was also an anon or two saying that we "turned full circle" by "driving people out for posting stuff we don't like."
Seems a valid concern to me.

>>14079
>If we already have a bad reputation, and then enforce what people think the site is about (IE: fapfics and other fetish shit) by allowing people to use our site for those purposes and then post all about it on /tg/, we are never going to see any growth because our reputation will remain "That place is a shithole."
Assuming you meant "reinforce" rather than "enforce" (because I otherwise have no idea what you were trying to say), you are somewhat exaggerating reality. "Things are allowed there" does not, in most people's minds, directly equate to "That place is a shithole." People have founded entire countries around the idea of shit being allowed.

>We are going to see less than that and especially less people who have any merit to what they draw
Not really. What effects the influx of people is mostly how much people are aware of tgchan. And "merit" is not an easily definable thing. While I don't deny it exists, I suspect I disagree with you on what's actually meritous, and moreover I find you to be judging prematurely.
>if we willingly let people advertise ourselves as a complete and utter shithole that embraces this sort of thing.
Okay, so we should advertise ourselves as a castle of wonders that embraces this sort of thing. Because guess fucking what? We embrace this sort of thing. Being deceitful in our advertisement (and by the way, we don't actually advertise) will get us nowhere.

>We don't need to do anything to try to right our reputation on /tg/, nor do we need to actively go over there and try to say "No way guys, tgchan is awesome, look at Journey and Bitequest and shit!"
Eh, we should probably remind them we exist, actually. But I agree that we need not do any correcting of reputation. Our reputation is mostly accurate.
>All I'm saying is that we shouldn't willingly allow ourselves to be advertised as a shithole haven for the dregs of /tg/ deemed too crazy and shitty for even them, and a complete and utter hugbox towards any freak that can't post their shit on /d/ or /tg/.
Guess what? That's what we are. tgchan houses things that aren't on /tg/. Quests with art, and many of the threads on our /tg/ board, are here because they need to exist for long periods of time without 404ing. But things are also largely here because on /tg/ they'd run afoul of the janitor or sage-bombing asshats (presumably such as yourself, based on your demeanor).

>It's for the good of the site that this does not continue and that Technomancer finds some other place to post his art.
Technomancer posting his art here isn't even related to any of that shit. All that tells people is that you can post images on tgchan.

tl;dr: Fuck you and your puritanism.

>>14082
>lest the site be overrun with people like Flynnmerk, Technomancer and their cronies.
I am pretty sure they are not associated with each other and do not have cronies.

>It was bad enough when Reaver was around, we don't need more people like them.
People who do a chapter every day for months? I disagree. Reaver-borne drama was a downer towards the end there, but overall Reaver helped the site a whole hell of a lot more than he hurt it.

>If left completely unchecked it could well be the death of the site,
Slippery slope fallacy.

>It's not the community that started this site
Your memory differs substantially from mine. Surely a quest about a little black kitten repeatedly almost getting raped would also be counter to your tastes? RapeQuest was the first major quest, and there really wasn't a community at all before those days, although the board did predate it by a few weeks or months.

>>14087
>I'm saying that people who enjoy Flynnmerk, Technomancer and others are not the same community as the old guard that started the site, who value quality storytelling in quests over porn shenanigans played straight.
That's why everything Gnoll did was universally reviled always until everything went to shit just recently.
Oh wait. Gnoll has never or almost never had a plot that lasted longer than a single thread, and is well-loved by everyone, and has been since almost when the site started. And Freis and bg and I'm sure plenty of others that I'm forgetting did the same thing since for as long as the site's been around.

>but that we need to have some values to hold onto.
Seriously? Are you just running out of arguments now? Are you going to ask us to think of the children next?

>>14092
And nothing of value was lost.
I hope some of those folks come back here, though.

>>14094
It's not better than Sourg Rapes.

>>14098
:unicode:





Also as a side note I haven't noticed anything Technomancer's done that's even remotely close to objectionable enough to prompt this. Did something get deleted?
>>
No. 14104 ID: 6ba8b3

What I'm taking out of this is that some would like that artists didin't use this place as their personal gallery to link to. On the logic if all they draw is huge slopping vaginas then the sloppy vagina enthusiast will come here and start quests about huge vaginas slopping around driving away those who like their vaginas tight and virginal?

Mostly reasonable request. Though I don't think the ratio of awesome quests will go up nor the site gain more readers even if this was the cleanest site on internet. Questing just isin't popular or well known and it's thinly spread around on multiple sites. I guess it's just a question of reputation or internet points. I'm going to have to say nay.

Also damn I'm a slow typist and agree with above.
>>
No. 14105 ID: e3f578

lol at the people going on about how Flynnmerk is a horrible person for making a shitty quest makes me laugh. I haven't even seen the guy act all high and mighty, does he act like a fag in IRC or something? At most from what he posts, he seems like some sad, kinda confused dude. That likes attention, but hey, who doesn't? He just has the writing quality of some dumb 15 year old. No need to make him out to be scum. I'm pretty sure most of us has made some weird, awful quality stuff in their time.

I see content flowing around, some of its quality, and we got some cool bros making stuff here. As long as that's happening I really don't see a problem with what's going on on tgchan. We're always gonna have shitty questmakers as long as this site supports quests.

I know someone will likely rebuke with a "but I never said we won't have shitty quest makers." I'm just saying that, I know, that wasn't the point I was making your posts out to be, but you seem to be saying that they should "just stop being shitty once they realize it or GET OUT" within the subtext of the argument. Some people can't improve. Hell, for that to fucking happen, quality would have to be objective instead of subjective. And on the subject of the authors using criticism to improve, the constructive type seems to be either rare or, even more-so, in the subtext of posts under the guise of the opposite type of criticism. The other times no criticism of any kind is posted when authors ask for it. I'm guilty of it because I'm a lazy fuck that just wants to read and have fun, admittedly.

Authors who do want to improve but seem to be stagnating, please do try harder to understand and weaken your faults please. I really do not want the message of this post to also be taken as an argument for you to not improve on account of lacking above criticism. I know someone might take that, because I would since I'm an idiot and I know there might be a few of you are just as idiotic as me and would mix meanings or get false ones. I'm not insulting anyone's character specifically here with that disclaimer, just trying to protect my own... with deprecating humor about questioning my intelligence and the merit of my own opinions I suppose.

What... what does that even mean?
>>
No. 14106 ID: e3f578

>I know someone will likely rebuke with a "but I never said we won't have shitty quest makers." I'm just saying that, I know, that wasn't the point I was making your posts out to be, but you seem to be saying that they should "just stop being shitty once they realize it or GET OUT" within the subtext of the argument. Hell, for that to fucking happen, we'd have to be able to judge quality objectively. And some people have a tough ass time improving to the point that they can't do it at all because of many reasons. Maybe they're thick-headed that shit is just not getting through or just have no idea how to go on about improving it, so they try continuing hoping that they somehow fixed whatever was going wrong by going forward and trying small different things. Sometimes, they've worked long enough on a quest or are attached to it enough that they don't want to see it die but realize the mistakes they've made cannot be fixed or are big enough no improvement can make it go away so that the only choice IS a reboot.

I had to fix the things in this sentence so it might make some better sense. the placement of "Some people can't Improve" and me not elaborating on it is the main one that bugged me on top of it being pretty cut and dry, plus me mucking up the objectivity/subjectivity sentence.
>>
No. 14108 ID: cf244d

>>14106
You could have deleted the post and remade it with the new text in place.

Also I've not seen FlynnMerk do anything worth criticism besides being a furry with fetishes, and even that remains within his own threads.
So criticizing him is a bit like getting mad at someone for shaving in the shower and getting beard hairs in the drain when you just clogged it already from shaving your legs.
>>
No. 14109 ID: e3f578

>>14108
I don't have a saved password and closed my window. I kind of fucked up in that regard.
>>
No. 14112 ID: 6b2b68

>>14103
>RapeQuest
>First Major Quest
>Not The End or HatchQuest
>>
No. 14113 ID: cf244d

>>14112
Neither of those were really major at that time. Even now, they're primarily notable only for being long-running. RapeQuest was major on a scale that nothing's been besides it and Reaver's quests. Fucking everyone read it.
Also, RapeQuest predates The End by 16 hours, while Hatch predates it by only two days.
>>
No. 14114 ID: bf1e7e

>>14108

Flynn isn't really an awful guy, just a kid who makes an awful quest.

If we ran people off for making awful quests we would have a much smaller site than we do now.
>>
No. 14115 ID: 2563d4

>>14103
>We embrace this sort of thing.
This statement is false. Some subset of users embrace the sick and/or just plain mind-numbingly-terrible-but-who-needs-quality-when-its-pandering-to-my-fetishes shit. The proportion is pretty hard to judge, though, let alone if those people are actually "us" in any sense, or just drive-by people from 4chan/tg/ following a link from there then returning.

>>14108
Pretending that the reason people don't like/mock FlynnMerk's work is because it's furry is the most retarded thing you've said this thread. Yamoto Cannon Fire.
>>
No. 14116 ID: d6ae01

>>14069
Oh you.
>>
No. 14117 ID: f5e4b4

>>14112

Well yes, as they've already told you, those two are technically older (although not by a notable difference), Rape Quest was the first major quest in the board, the one that brought most of the users to post in it and discuss it on the channels, the one that originated a large quantity of fanart. And ultimatelly, everybody remembers it as the one that started up the flux of suggestions and authors creating their own quests.
>>
No. 14118 ID: 69228e

Why is it always hurf durf Rape Quest in those arguments?
Barely anything actually happened in Rape Quest, despite the name, and the little that did wasn't overly explicit.
People really seem to have missed the joke.
>>
No. 14119 ID: cc04a7

>>14092
You don't go to brofist. Brofist comes to you.
>>
No. 14120 ID: e3f578

>>14115
So what are we going to do, force those suggesters that embrace shitty quests out? That's even more impossible then kicking shitty authors out! Suggesters like that don't give a shit about the overall quality of tgchan, they're just here to probably fap on top of enjoying some shitty shit.

Has there been a quest that's legitimately bad but enjoyable to read? Like how some people watch shitty movies for fun? Ironic Quests like that Green-Haired Cloud guy don't count because they were made to be that way on purpose. Sometimes people just want to fucking suggest in the Troll 2 equivalent quest.
>>
No. 14122 ID: cbc15e

>>14120
I used to love reading Sanya Quest for that very reason.
>>
No. 14130 ID: cf244d

>>14115
I haven't noticed people caring about pandering to fetishes, actually. Nor have I noticed any quests pandering to fetishes. Most users find things amusing completely regardless of what some fag in the arguments thread thinks.

>The proportion is pretty hard to judge, though, let alone if those people are actually "us" in any sense
Well, based on IRC conversations, a pretty decent majority of those people are tangibly "us" in the sense that they come on IRC regularly and have done so for years. And everybody on IRC at least passively embraces such shit.

>Pretending that the reason people don't like/mock FlynnMerk's work is because it's furry
I did not actually say that.

>>14118
It was a shitty quest with no real story that was oriented around silly fanservice shit. And it was the first major quest here. The fact that it was a cocktease is immaterial.

>>14117
The End is not technically older.
>>
No. 14131 ID: 2563d4

>>14130
>I haven't noticed people caring about pandering to fetishes, actually.
So you've missed the conversation you're part of?

>I did not actually say that.
Wow, apparently so! That or you're being pedantic about "with fetishes", a suffix which is completely redundant when talking about furries since furryism is a fetish, and also equally applies to why your point is dumb: i.e. if people hated on furries with fetishes here they'd hate on pretty much every quest author. I think, uh, Ed is an exception? Maybe Brom depending where you draw the line. I'm struggling to think of another.

>a pretty decent majority of those people are tangibly "us" in the sense that they come on IRC regularly and have done so for years
Pray tell, what magic allows you to determine that the people in /draw/ and /tg/ posting support for things like Technomancer's art and that kobold fapfic are longstanding IRC veterans? Those boards do not have IDs visible. Has a mod confirmed this?

>And everybody on IRC at least passively embraces such shit.
This claim is also complete nonsense, given that IRC is a relatively common place for rage about shit landing on the board. (You can usually tell when this is happening because LawyerDog will start calling people whiny babies.)
>>
No. 14132 ID: cf244d

>>14131
>Pray tell, what magic allows you to determine that the people in /draw/ and /tg/ posting support for things like Technomancer's art and that kobold fapfic are longstanding IRC veterans?
The magic of being in IRC when folks talk about it.

>I'm struggling to think of another.
There's plenty of folks. Jukashi? Weaver? The main issue with knowing who is or isn't a fetishist furry is that folks don't always share that information widely. There's no huge visible distinction between someone who lacks these traits and someone who has them but is not vocal about it.
Also, this line of conversation has no relevance to anything anyone has been talking about.

The remainder of your post is divorced from logic and/or observable fact to the extent that I am not unable to formulate a proper response.
>>
No. 14133 ID: bf1e7e

>>14132

>The remainder of your post is divorced from logic and/or observable fact

No,

>Well, based on IRC conversations, a pretty decent majority of those people are tangibly "us" in the sense that they come on IRC regularly and have done so for years. And everybody on IRC at least passively embraces such shit.

Is.

Not only is the concept of a 'passive embrace' completely absurd, but you are conflating tolerance with embracing.

And there's certainly no 'observation' going on here, you can't even NAME these supposed IRC legends supporting this shit.

also:

>This claim is also complete nonsense, given that IRC is a relatively common place for rage about shit landing on the board. (You can usually tell when this is happening because LawyerDog will start calling people whiny babies.)

Is an objective fact and you are absolutely retarded for even pretending that it isn't.
>>
No. 14134 ID: bf1e7e

>>14133

Oh, and also:

>Jukashi
>Not fetishist
>Will of the Underpants

Nope.mp4
>>
No. 14135 ID: 15b51b

Is "ladies" really a fetish?
>>
No. 14137 ID: 70d9eb

It doesn't matter how terrible a quest is because TGChan does not have quality control. If TGChan starts having quality control things are going to get completely retarded and shitty because people have different tastes and you're not going to get a clear line of what belongs and what doesn't.
>>
No. 14138 ID: 28e94e

>>14137
Pretty much yeah.
>>
No. 14139 ID: 08a5f4

>>14135
Of course. Anything to do with sex, thinking about sex, using the word sex, or any thought process more involved than 'Eeew, cooties' is obviously fetishistic.

Sorry, venting from folklore classes.
>>
No. 14140 ID: e3f578

>>14137
Aww man you hit the target on the bulls-eye. The people going on about trying to improve tgchan as an art form or community does not get the fucking point of quests.
>>
No. 14143 ID: cc04a7

>>14140
>The people going on about trying to improve tgchan as an art form or community does not get the fucking point of quests.

I need a drink.

You do not understand any aspect of the argument whatsoever.
>>
No. 14144 ID: f88f02

>>14134
BECAUSE NICE ASSES ARE CERTAINLY A FETISH

AND SO IS SEX, OH MAN

WHAT ABOUT BLOWJOBS? OH YEAH, DEFINITELY A FETISH.
>>
No. 14145 ID: e3f578

>>14143
you mean we aren't arguing about quality here?
Jeez man, it's just whining about all that crap about improving a community and other things is just dumb from a standpoint. This whole site is mainly to be a front for interactive storytelling and is a community second. I think anyway. Too many variable people in communities to actually improve them.
>>
No. 14146 ID: 1854db

Guys. I *did* suggest that we never talk to Cruxador.

But I guess if you WANT to let him troll you that's fine.
>>
No. 14150 ID: bf1e7e

>>14144

I consider a creepy obsession with the hypersexualization of plants to be basically the same thing as furry (similar to how I do not mark a distinction between FURRY and CHITINY and SCALEY and FEATHERY and ALIEN SEX), and furry is absolutely a fetish.

but oh wait Jukashi is -popular- so his fetishes don't count as fetishes. Forgot. Because 'fetish' is automatically a bad word on the internet (and not the neutral word that it actually is) and it's SO WRONG to insult somebody that you like.
>>
No. 14152 ID: 55bd47

I hate everyone here more and more every day. That is all.
>>
No. 14153 ID: cf244d

>>14150
I am pretty sure that the sexualized aspect and the plant aspect are independent of each other, since none of Jukashi's other stuff has anything to do with plant people.

Jukashi's fetish is pretty clearly just promiscuous girls. Which is pretty damn vanilla as far as such things go.
>>
No. 14154 ID: bf1e7e

>>14153

>I am pretty sure that the sexualized aspect and the plant aspect are independent of each other,

No more and no less independent than in 95% of furry porn.
>>
No. 14156 ID: 6ba8b3

You know you don't have to take the thread title literally?
>>
No. 14157 ID: cf244d

>>14156
Yes we do. It's a literal title. If this was supposed to be a thread for small intelligent agreement, it would be called that.
And it would get no posts.
>>
No. 14158 ID: 63edb7

I'm not going to complain about it since there's just as many quests that aren't overtly sexual than there are, but sex, furry or otherwise, has always seemed to be a prominent part of the site. Its always been there, at least as long as ive been here, but It's not really intrusive or anything, at least not in my opinion.

Then again, the very first quest I saw on the site when I found it was about a rat girl who masturbated a lot, so it's worth saying that there's certainly a point where I think the sex in quests can go too far. Furry-Ear-Sex-Yamoto-Cannon-Fire-Crying-While-Jerking-Off-Wearing-Your-Pants-and-Getting-Blood-Boners-Quest is probably the most recent example of that.
>>
No. 14159 ID: 2563d4

>>14150
>hypersexualization of plants
Seal, don't go dumb on us. That's Crux's job.

If Maolla starts sporting a huge stamen surrounded by murry petals, sure, but for now she's just a Star Trek green-skinned-space-babe. If Jukashi didn't say "they're half plant" there'd be nothing to indicate it from her visual design, and all the hypersexualised parts are regular old mammal equipment and behaviour.

You could make a more convincing argument that he's a regular furry since he has at least two female Lunars who go beastform with their tits out. :V
>>
No. 14160 ID: 70d9eb

>>14159
MORE LIKE BREASTFORM AM I RIGHT
>>
No. 14161 ID: bf1e7e

>>14159

Again, 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human aliens with a roughly human mindset' isn't significantly different from 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human animals with a roughly human mindset.'

That they are part plant specifically is actually ancillary, although it was misleading of me to mention the whole plant thing first.

>and all the hypersexualised parts are regular old mammal equipment and behaviour.

just like the tits and vaginas in 95% of furry porn.
>>
No. 14162 ID: 2563d4

>>14160
You are right.

>>14161
>just like the tits and vaginas in 95% of furry porn
Well, furry tits are, y'know, furry.

But since the argument is the not-human-but-almost part and they're clearly green, fine.
>>
No. 14163 ID: 15b51b

>>14150
Elves are nonhuman and therefore fetish.

Also, Kirk was a furry.
>>
No. 14164 ID: bf1e7e

>>14163

>Elves are nonhuman and therefore fetish.

If you focus on the sexualization thereof, then yeah basically.

>Also, Kirk was a furry.

When used in the sense that most quests on tgchan fit into the 'furry' fetish? Absolutely so.
>>
No. 14165 ID: 15b51b

Pretty much everyone is a 'fetishist' by that metric, because they like things which possess traits.
>>
No. 14166 ID: bf1e7e

>>14165

Yes.

Which is why it is absurd to even consider a significant percentage of the quests on /quest/ fetishistic.
>>
No. 14167 ID: 15b51b

I'm pretty sure that would make every quest a fetish quest, actually.

Except Golem Quest, of course.
>>
No. 14168 ID: 2563d4

>>14167
Golem Quest is actually the most sexually depraved quest on the board; it's just that nobody outside the hardcore and self-contained fanbase can stand to read it long enough to find out.
>>
No. 14170 ID: b6c6fc

reality doesn't categorize it self into Black/white

debating things either being Fetish/not fetish

is like debating wether someone is either Ghandi or Stalin (this is a crappy example, illustrating extreme things, I am not claiming fetish are evil, or that ghandi was a perfect guy, or stalin is satan, or any of that bullshit, I'm just trying to make a point here)

reality works in degrees, for example Will of the Undermind and Blake quest are both have fetish qualities

in my opinion (this is an opinion not fact, and is based on my own reasoning which may differ from the reasoning of those around me)
Undermind is much less of an imposing quest where fetishism is involved, though a lot about the Scellor's sexual nature is mentioned, it is rarely described in any detail, and almost nothing aside from some minor nudity is even shown. though many sexual things can be implied from things like "retractable teeth" and "three tongues" it (again in my opinion) is not openly offensive for those reasons Stupid and ridiculous perhaps (this is still my opinion)are technically not sexual in a normal sense any more then teeth and tongues are sexual to begin with.(by this I mean that these are not sexual organs on their own merit)

no on too BlakeQuest (my opinion yada yada you get the point!)
the problem with this sort of Fetishism is that the author blatently shoves his preferences down your throat (this is non literal exaggeration) fully illustrating sexual acts of the fetish nature with multiple updates. (in my opinion) this
Thus Blake quest level of Fetishism is far higher because the reader cannot ignore or dismiss subtle hints and must indure or enjoy said fetish to be able to read the quest

the thing with fetishes is that most people them, but it's up to the author to understand that most people won't also share yours

this is my main point, a quest with a thousand invisable fetishes offends no one,
but the more explicit, visualized, and pivotal to the quest your fetish becomes the great the chance you have to offend someone
>>
No. 14171 ID: b6c6fc

another example: I have one really major Fetish,
but from reading my quests it will be very hard to tell what it is

(feel free to try and guess) :3c
>>
No. 14172 ID: 70d9eb

IS IT TOMBOYS
>>
No. 14173 ID: 28e94e

>>14171
I can't tell if that's serious or not
>>
No. 14174 ID: 1854db

>>14161
>just like the tits and vaginas in 95% of furry porn.

This is objectively wrong. About 25-50% of furry porn involves animal-like primary sexual organs.

Also, stop calling green humans with earstalks furry. You're being retarded. Furry = humanoid with animal traits, and Scellor have no animal traits. They don't even have PLANT traits. They're just part plant in ways that are not even PHYSCIALLY APPARENT. Unless you count being green. Would a human with green body paint be lumped with furries in your mind?

Also...

>Again, 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human aliens with a roughly human mindset' isn't significantly different from 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human animals with a roughly human mindset.'

This is also objectively wrong. Aliens are people. Animals are not people. That is a big fucking difference.
>>
No. 14175 ID: e3f578

I've always read furry and alien fetishists just wanting to have sex with people, just wearing some weird shit. I mean, from a standpoint, these characters they make may as well be human dressed up as whatever the fuck they are.

Dude, they just wanna fuck humans but make it kinkier. Is that so wrong? (Yes)

>>14171
LW, you have a thing for tongues. You called Lucid's Bangle pictures sexy and they have her doing the "come hither" tongue pose. You totally dig that pose and its allllll right.
Also, you dig softcore from what you said in IRC one time I was actually there. But I dunno if that counts as a fetish or a type or whatever.
>>
No. 14176 ID: a4a522

>>14174
If I ever saw a human that looked like a scellor, even without the ears, I would shoot it in the face and call it a monster. People don't look like that. At all.
>>
No. 14177 ID: 70d9eb

>>14174
No, you are objectively wrong. Taking an actual sampling of a large portion of furry porn, the site e621.net (excluding pictures rated safe), you get 3.6% of furry porn having non-human parts. 25-50% is an absurd amount to assume, and there's no reason to believe it is even close to that.

This is not comparing animals to aliens, this is comparing animal people to aliens. Animal people are people, aliens are people. Furry is just a generic term to cover all the shit that is humanoid but not human, because there is no better term. If anything Scellor are more furry because of them being more distinct from humans than a lot of animal furry characters.
>>
No. 14179 ID: bf1e7e

>>14174

>Also, stop calling green humans with earstalks furry.

And flippers
And headtentacles
And tails
And three tongues
And sharp, shark-like, retractable teeth
And no noses
And slitted pupils
And wide mouths

>Aliens are people.

'aliens' as in 'residents of other nations' are people. Aliens as in 'extraterrestrials' are not. Unless you just want to count 'sentient humanoids' as people, in which case aliens are people too.

Also I'm not saying that they're furries, I'm saying that the distinction between the two is ultimately irrelevant.
>>
No. 14180 ID: bf1e7e

>>14179

in which case furries are people too derp derp.
>>
No. 14181 ID: cf244d

>>14171
Is it tiny furries with laser guns?
>>
No. 14182 ID: 2563d4

>>14181
>but from reading my quests it will be very hard to tell what it is

On that basis, macrophilia. :V
>>
No. 14184 ID: 13409b

oh wow I just noticed the things going on in this thread

Ok, I don't particularly care to get involved, but maybe I can clear some things up? For a start, I actually am indeed a furry (in the sense that I am particularly attracted to characters that blend human and animal characteristics), I just don't like saying so or showing so because the furry community is pretty terrible and I try to distance myself from them. And it's not like it's anyone else's business anyway, any more than that I like other exotic ladies, or light bondage, or girls wearing oversized men's shirts.

That said (and hopefully never to be said again), I do not personally consider scellor to be furry, and though I do consider them attractive I feel it no more strongly than I do for, say, dark-skinned human women. In fact, there are aspects of them that I wouldn't like in that way, such as the earstalks, or the oddly-shaped limbs. I make no claim that I do not include some lovely ladies in my stuff, nor that I avoid sexuality, but I do like to think I've done a pretty good job of keeping my personal fetishes from having any major influence in my comic or quests. That's a pretty awful thing for any creator to foist on their audience.
>>
No. 14185 ID: e3f578

>>14184
>girls wearing oversized men's shirts
<3
>>
No. 14186 ID: a4a522

Although most of them would believe otherwise, the people of this board would probably never be able to guess any of my fetishes based on my work. That shit has nothing to do with good storytelling, yo.

That being said, I do clump the xenophiles and furries in exactly the same bucket, although I think the 'furriness' of our board is greatly exaggerated. I will say that I've found the better quests tend to be the ones with human protagonists. I pretty much read anything with a human character.
>>
No. 14187 ID: 2563d4

>>14186
This is, of course, why Bite's two biggest and most successful quests have had non-human protagonists. :3c
>>
No. 14188 ID: 1854db

>>14179
Your comparison was between aliens and animals. Not furries and aliens. That comparison was invalid.

>>14177
What. How did you even get that statistic? If you're going purely by tags, then that number is way lower than it actually is.
I personally went through the 20 latest pages of results for -rating:s penis, at 48 images each, and I got 4-10 images per page with animal dick. One or two times more than that, only ONCE less than 4. It tended to be above 6.

So I guess I overestimated by a factor of 2. It's more like 10-25%.
>>
No. 14191 ID: 10c20a

>>14188
which comparison was that? Because the one I saw stated "'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human animals with a roughly human mindset.'"

Assuming this is the comparison you are referring to, the "humanoid" right there at the start, prior to "animal" makes the animal anthropomorphic. The most common use of the term "furry" refers to anthropomorphic animals. So his comparison there is indeed about furrys vs aliens, so I don't really know what you're on about.
>>
No. 14192 ID: 79ef99

Well, this thread sure lives up to it's title. It feels...weird being one of maybe two or three people on 4chan who have no particular hatred for furries. I'd think that people on here wouldn't have that self same opinion about them. But, i guess that even this place will have at least one or two people who have that ARRRGHHH FURFAGS! mindset.

INB4 furfag accusations.
>>
No. 14193 ID: 1854db

>>14191
The comparison I quoted. Here, I'll quote it again.
>Again, 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human aliens with a roughly human mindset' isn't significantly different from 'I want to fuck humanoid but distinctly non-human animals with a roughly human mindset.'

He changed 'aliens' into 'animals'. Wanting to fuck something having animal qualities suggests you want to fuck an animal. Even if you really don't. Wanting to fuck something with alien qualities implies you want to fuck an alien. Which, let's face it, isn't that objectionable. This is because animals are not people, while aliens are. Yes, I mean in the sense that they are 'sentient humanoids'. Or just sentient, really. Or sapient. Whatever the term is to describe something that can give consent.
>>
No. 14194 ID: 1854db

Oh yeah. Also, aliens are pretty much already humanoid and distinctly non-human. Since the entire comparison revolves around putting those qualifiers on both types of being, the fact that they are unnecessary further invalidates the comparison.
>>
No. 14195 ID: e3f578

>>14193
>Wanting to fuck something having animal qualities suggests you want to fuck an animal. Even if you really don't. Wanting to fuck something with alien qualities implies you want to fuck an alien.

Note that the something you're referring to is humanoid, as in similar to humans. These people want to fuck human things in a kinkier style, not animals. If they wanted to fuck them, they'd just go grab one if they could ignore law and the chance being outcasted for being a disgusting pervert for their entire lives should they get caught.

No man, they want to fuck people with the the grace of human anatomy. Aliens count as wanting to fuck aliens because on all counts they do count as motherfucking aliens from space, which have the potential for actually existing in a form thanks to the size of the universe. Though the probability of wanting to fuck said alien will probably drop as soon as we realize these real aliens aren't green space babes.
>>
No. 14197 ID: 081e71

>>14195
People fuck cars. CARS. Look up Chris Donald. Sexuality is truly unbounded.
>>
No. 14198 ID: e3f578

>>14197
I wasn't talking about that people don't want to fuck weird things, I well aware some people do. Unless your referring to my statement about people not wanting to bone aliens if they are green space babes, but that's why I put down probability of wanting to bone instead of saying they won't want too. More people would lose their libido if the thing they're were about to copulate with wasn't in a form that they're relative to.

My point was just going over whether or not furries and xenophiles want to just get with what would essentially be human with a few extra features and more varied colors.
>>
No. 14199 ID: 6b2b68

I don't like the description "Anthropomorphic animals" because it implies they started with an animal and gave it human qualities.

It should be the other way around, they start with a human and give it animal qualities. They have a human shape, human mind, human everything except they have fur and their face is a little different. Unfortunately "Therianthropic People" is not the term that most people use to describe these creatures, and "Therian" is already used to describe a particular sort of person on the internet.
>>
No. 14200 ID: 2563d4

>>14192
>Hasn't read the fucking discussion
Go cry "fursecution" somewhere else.
>>
No. 14201 ID: 7031d5

Furries pretend to be normal people now?
Who would have thought.
>>
No. 14203 ID: 383006

>>14193
You are so fucking retarded that it hurts me.

There is no significant difference between any vaguely humanoid thing with a bunch of weird shit stuck on it, whether or not it is a consistent set of animal features or imaginary bullshit.

I don't think that point is really arguable. You guys realize that normal people don't want to fuck either, right?

If it's just a green skinned babe, or an elf, then sure. Scellor are not that, though. They have a bunch of freaky characteristics.
>>
No. 14204 ID: e02378

>>14203
that's just like, your opinion, man. you may not find scellor fuckable but others do. heck, i would be willing to do anything with more then a 50% physical similarity. need at least 90% or greater brain power compared to a human, though.
>>
No. 14205 ID: 383006

>>14204
I wasn't saying that some people don't find them attractive, I'm saying that they're at least as different from humans as a furry.
>>
No. 14206 ID: bf1e7e

>while aliens are.

Including non-sentient extraterrestrials.

LIke, say, tribbles?

Or wampas?

Or banthas? Wanting to fuck a humanoid Bantha totally isn't furry because banthas are aliens, right?

An extraterrestrial is at LEAST as far from human as an animal. In most cases, they would quite likely be FARTHER since they are unlikely to have the same common genetic ancestors.

I'm not surprised, though. Here you are, so caught up in being violently opposed to anything I say just because I'm me that you are now arguing that furry = bestiality. Fantastic. I always knew that you actually WERE a shithead, shii, but I didn't think that you'd actually go and prove it where everyone could see it.
>>
No. 14207 ID: bf1e7e

>>14206

Oh, and I TOTALLY said vaginas, not genitals. Animal-like vaginas are waaaaaaaaaaaaay less common than dog/horse cocks in furry porn.

Also I hope you aren't counting conedicks as animal dicks. They aren't.
>>
No. 14208 ID: 31b52c

I think one of the core problems with this discussion, as with pretty much all discussions on furries, is the question of what definition of "furry" people are using, and what particular quality people are finding most objectionable.
>>
No. 14209 ID: e02378

>>14208
oh absolutely.
>>
No. 14210 ID: 1854db

>>14207
>non-sentient extraterrestrials.
You would have a point here if there was any porn at all of it. Besides it's a bit irrelevant, isn't it? You'd be talking about alien animals. Not just aliens.

I'm going to state my point once again. IGNORING OTHER STUFF YOU SAID, that single comparison is invalid because it simply replaces 'animals' with 'aliens' and while animals are universally non-sentient, aliens usually are.

Also, if you were just talking about vaginas... uh, why? I don't see the point in arguing about fetishes while excluding men. Personally I think the only reason we don't see more animal vagina in furry porn is that the differences between human and animal vagina are pretty subtle in most cases. It doesn't look interesting thus people don't draw it. I think the only time people bother to make it look different is with snakes and horses (ugh, horses).

>conedicks not animal dicks
Psh, yeah right. Conedicks are dolphin dicks. People just put them on everything.

>>14203
I don't think you read everything in my post. I already addressed everything you just said. Of course I just restated my main point again so maybe that'll help you understand.
>>
No. 14211 ID: 383006

>>14210
You obviously didn't understand anything I said then.

Your entire point is mind-numbingly stupid and you addressed nothing that I said.

Wanting to fuck a furry has nothing to do with wanting to fuck animals, and wanting to fuck a freaky space creature is objectionable to most people. Anything that looks distinctly non-human is objectionable to most people, just not most people on this site or certain less savory parts of the internet.

It has nothing to do with perceived intelligence and no one was even talking about that before you started being ridiculous everywhere. I mean, the original shit even stipulated about the same level of intelligence and everything. You just... came out of nowhere with a completely irrelevant and ridiculous argument.

Re: Animal vaginas - most people don't draw them on furries because they look fucking gross. There are definitely more than "subtle differences." Hell, furry dog cocks don't really look like dog cocks. Dog cocks are fucking disgusting-looking.

Popsicle dicks are not dolphin dicks. They are just shittily-drawn shapes because furries. The same reason most vaginas are just lines. They're simple to draw and nobody can really tell you that it's 'wrong.'

The original context was Scellor v. most furries. How their only human parts are basically the tits and vags (and being bipeds). So, yeah, that would exclude dicks.
>>
No. 14212 ID: bf1e7e
File 130168055835.png - (114.94KB , 400x400 , ALossisaLoss2.png )
14212

>>14210

>You would have a point here if there was any porn at all of it.

And there is!

>Not just aliens.

Alien Animals are just as much aliens as alien sapient beings.

>and while animals are universally non-sentient

But furries aren't. I suppose it's my fault for using 'humanoid' instead of 'human-like,' but you used it too (And I quote: "Furry = humanoid with animal traits, and Scellor have no animal traits.") So I guess I can be forgiven for having a momentary lapse and thinking that you weren't a fucking idiot.

>IGNORING OTHER STUFF YOU SAID, that single comparison is invalid because it simply replaces 'animals' with 'aliens'

Ignoring the context of a discussion to try to argue semantics just makes you a retard. I also specified that we were talking about aliens that were similar to humans, in much the same way that furries can be considered animals that are similar to humans. The comparison stands, as both are just 'humans with exotic features.'

Also, by your argument, there is nothing 'furry' about this picture because it's just a picture of an alien. YAY.

>I don't see the point in arguing about fetishes while excluding men.

Well you're completely ignoring all of the furry pictures of chicks when saying pulling TEN TO TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT OF ALL FURRY PORN HAS ANIMAL GENITALS out of your ass.

So not only did you fail semantically (by ignoring that the original point was about tits and vaginas), you failed at statistics by ignoring an outrageously large portion of the thing you were trying to sample!

>is that the differences between human and animal vagina are pretty subtle in most cases.

No they're really not. Most animal vaginas are pretty silly and/or gross. I know, I've actually been paid to draw a couple.

>Psh, yeah right. Conedicks are dolphin dicks.

Not even remotely.

>This is because animals are not people, while aliens are.

Again, plenty of aliens are not people. Alien PEOPLE are people, but so are Animal PEOPLE. This is the entire point of the argument and none of your failed attempts at semantics have even approached addressing it.
>>
No. 14213 ID: e3f578
File 130168155345.jpg - (67.54KB , 426x640 , D4kMA.jpg )
14213

Man, what is this even about right now? The shape of genitalia on certain fictional organisms? I'm not getting this at all anymore.

Aww man, Seal, why'd you have to go and post fanart porn from your stripset in the argument thread? Even if you're using it to prove a point it's the only picture in here that isn't the OP image and man now this thread is all awkward like. It would have been better to use an example you didn't make yourself... I think. I dunno, it just puts me off like it shouldn't have a place in this thread.

I'll think I'll put some attractive picture of a model I found on some forum I like to lurk in to offset the picture. Maybe it can inspire a new argument, like what's attractive or some shit.

Are tanktops attractive on women?
>>
No. 14214 ID: bf1e7e

>>14213

I used one I had myself because it was already handy, I didn't have to bother going and getting one from somewhere else.
>>
No. 14215 ID: f5e4b4

>>14214

Well, I don't think tanktops are your thing, but I agree that it's better if you use one of your own instead of someone else's.
>>
No. 14216 ID: 31b52c

>>14213

Depends on the woman. Some women look bad in tanktops and some women look good, as I reckon.

How do you feel about women in the item of clothing known to americans as a wifebeater and to most of the rest of the world as a vest?
>>
No. 14217 ID: 31b52c

Also to step back to the previous argument, I think a problem is that at some point someone said "alien" and intended it to mean "sentient non-humans from space" while the other person took it as "any living creature of extraterrestrial origin". Technically it means the latter, but in common usage people wouldn't think of something like a martian bacterium or a tribble when they hear the word "alien".

And you have to think of social context. There are aliens in lots of things and there are furries in lots of things, but furries are more likely to be associated with the furry fandom in particular while aliens are not associated with people who are attracted to aliens. Although both have "legitimate" uses in fiction, furries are considered more childish and unoriginal (because HURR WHAT IF HUMAN HAD DOG HEAD) and are laden with associations from their fans, while aliens are usually more imaginative and the examples that people think of when they hear the word usually have more thought put into them. I think that's a dividing line. Like, a race of dinosaur people who just act like humans is furry, but a race of raptor people who are strict carnivores, have feathers, are mostly cruel but loyal to friends and have a culture otherwise based off logical extension from their biology and likely natural behaviors is... well, not as furry, in the pejorative sense.

You can argue that a sexual attraction to aliens is just as deviant as an attraction to furries, and you're probably right! But the point remains that furries have a lot of baggage that aliens don't. People don't think of them the same way.
>>
No. 14218 ID: ab8eaa

best animal dong = horse. best vagina = dolphin.
>>
No. 14219 ID: 70d9eb

>>14217
So aliens are more different from humans than furries and are therefore better to fuck, got it.

Lohrke tails tickle your balls while you fuck them, you know.
>>
No. 14220 ID: 31b52c

>>14219
>So aliens are more different from humans than furries and are therefore better to fuck, got it.

That is the opinion which seems to hold amongst most people on the internet, as far as I can deduce from observation.
>>
No. 14221 ID: e02378

how about star trek. klingons and humans have fucked. it is canon, we see half-breeds.
>>
No. 14222 ID: 383006

I think what
>>14217
is saying is actually incorrect if it is what
>>14220 and
>>14219
are saying.

Aliens are theoretically more legitimate than furries if you're talking about using them in media (a story/movie/something) for the reasons 14217 says.

However, I'd argue that sexing aliens is probably less acceptable than furries for similar sorts of reasons. If furries carry the baggage of being sexualized by their nature, then being attracted to them, although carrying some fandom garbage, is at least recognized as something that lots of people do.

If you're fapping to non-furry aliens, however, you are more of a fringe guy. You are sexualizing something seen as more 'legitimate' and less 'porny.' Of course, it sort of depends on how the aliens are presented in the medium for any of this to hold water. Blue people will funny foreheads who are cosmic sluts in skintight outfits? One thing. District 9? A total other thing.
>>
No. 14223 ID: 31b52c

>>14222

To approach my argument from another angle; I think that sexualization of anthropomorphic animals is not, in fact, what bugs people about furries. This seems counter-intuitive, I know. But what really bugs people about furries is the community. It's the fursuits, it's the unoriginal donut-steel original characters, the sparkledogs and the murry-purry yiffing circlejerking hugbox obnoxiousness of it all. And every piece of art, every comic, every story that uses furry characters is tainted by association.

People are, mostly, ok with the idea of fucking intelligent fictional creatures. Sci-fi and fantasy alike have played it both straight and for laughs for decades. You can go onto /tg/ now and make a thread about tyranid porn, and if you tried to make a similar thread about furries you would receive a much more massive backlash, despite the fact that furries are much closer to sexual norms than the other.

It's true that fucking aliens is more "fringe" than fucking furries, but that's the problem with furries in the first place. Their exposure has made them the recipients of backlash, to which they unwisely respond and perpetuate an upward spiral of mutual agitation. People are exposed to furries more often and, because of that, develop a grudge, a negative emotional response. They don't have that with sexualized aliens, because they aren't given reason to think about it very often.
>>
No. 14224 ID: 383006

>>14223
>People are, mostly, ok with the idea of fucking intelligent fictional creatures.

I think your argument is mostly valid except for this line. Your comment about tyranid porn is totally true, but that's on 4chan. It's pretty far from mainstream.

I think most people have a negative association with furries because of the assumption that everything is 'for faps' instead of for some more legit purpose.

Most people thought the sex scene in Splice was disturbing and creepy, not boner-inducing.
>>
No. 14225 ID: 70d9eb
Audio 09_-_Monkey_Baby.mp3 - (6.27MB , 09 - Monkey Baby.mp3 )
14225

I think this should help conclude the argument.
>>
No. 14226 ID: 2563d4

>>14224
>I think most people have a negative association with furries because of the assumption that everything is 'for faps' instead of for some more legit purpose.

>implying it isn't
>>
No. 14227 ID: 31b52c

>>14224

Ok, I'm going to backtrack a bit and say instead that people are relatively ok with the notion of fucking intelligent fictional creatures. And by "people", I mean people who are already familiar enough with the idea of such creatures existing in the first place.

By this I mean they're open enough with it that it can be played for laughs, such as in Star Trek with idle chatter about dating a guy with a transparent skull, or in Red Dwarf with jokes about finding six-breasted alien women to teach about This Earth Thing Called Kissing. Or it can be played more straight - for more on why you might see http://io9.com/#!5378477/why-are-people-always-having-sex-with-dragons-in-science-fiction

If you asked most people on the internet if they thought that humans, if they ever met intelligent alien species, would try to have sex with them, they would probably just say "yeah, probably". They might be a bit uncomfortable about it, or maybe not. If you asked a similar question about furries, you'd get a similar answer but there'd be more of a negative emotional response attached.
>>
No. 14228 ID: 28e94e

>>14226
>implying there isn't a substantial amount of clean content produced by furries
>>
No. 14229 ID: 2563d4

>>14228
>implying something can be both furry and not sexual when furryism is a sexual fetish

Unless you're one of the faggots who considers any and all anthropomorphism furry, in which case literally every person in the developed world is a furry and you have made the word completely useless.

Which is understandable if you're a furry in denial trying to convince yourself that you're not a deviant weirdo, but still not useful.
>>
No. 14230 ID: 31b52c

>>14229

Once again we run into the ambiguity of the word "furry". Perhaps we should all try make our language a bit more clear?
>>
No. 14231 ID: 29fbe3

>>14223
>>14224
>>14227

In my experience, the negative reactions you describe seem to be prevalent mostly within the English speaking part of the web (not sure exactly which countries, though). On the majority of non-English speaking fora, *chan-sites and art/comic galleries that I visit regularly (mainly Nordic, German and Japanese, though), there is generally a much more relaxed attitude to "fringe" stuff, erotic or not. Of course, most people whose sole language is English probably won't be aware of (nor care about) this.

Maybe the reason that they seem so much nicer is that non-English speakers tend to flock to the larger, English fora and *chans most of the time? Or is it simply because of cultural differences, or even a mix between the two? I don't know. After all, the viewpoints put forward in this post are merely trends that I've noticed, but which I cannot pinpoint the causes for.

Do any of you have any additional insights on what exactly is going on with that?

(Also, I apologize if I fail to make my points clear, as I'm not used to having "lengthier" discussions in English.)
>>
No. 14232 ID: 383006

>>14231
This makes perfect sense. The negative reaction people have to furry media is tied to the way people who associated with it comported themselves. It's obviously not a function of furry media in and of itself.

This is early fandom: the insular, thin-skinned groups who made asses out of themselves. People trolled the shit out of them,and most places had strict policies against their kind. It lead to the sort of reaction where no one wanted to associate with the tangential media because they were afraid of other people accusing them of being furries. They were the butt of the internet's jokes and a universal scapegoat. I've been aware of the fandom since around '98 or so, and I've always kept up with the drama and fighting because it was interesting to me.

As the internet itself became less of a group of insular communities centered around discrete interests and more of a conglomeration of communities with lots of crossover between members, the reaction against furries has greatly decreased. I think in most places, most people just don't care that much anymore. In large part, I think it has to do with the fact that a larger percentage of internet users use the internet more casually - they don't associate themselves strongly with any online group, and get their sense of community and belonging from elsewhere. In other words, a larger part of the internet doesn't take the internet so seriously.

To a degree, this has been shifting the other direction with things like Facebook, etc. but those social interactions are still mostly intrinsically tied to the real world, not talking about dragons.

>>14227
That article is interesting, but isn't really more than tangentially related to the discussion. None of those examples were really people thinking the monsters were sexy - they were the monsters simultaneously thinking other monsters were sexy while the humans did the same with other humans: Extended metaphors for sexuality, not sexualizing nonhuman creatures.

I'd still argue that in most instances, sexing the nonhuman thing is played for laughs or horror, or it's some kind of metaphor for looking below the surface and understanding other cultures. I'd say generally it's not because we're expected to find the nonhuman attractive (there are exceptions, obviously, as I said above).
>>
No. 14233 ID: 28e94e

>>14229
>implying that I'm in denial
>implying that the term "furry" actually has a single well-defined definition (how does it feel to be so very very wrong)
>implying that most of said definitions are either strictly porn and fetish fuel, or so broad as to be useless
>implying implications

also
>mfw you fit three different fallacies into 2 lines of text
:unicode:
>>
No. 14234 ID: 2563d4

>>14233
>mfw you fit three different fallacies into 2 lines of text
What can I say?
:pinkiepie:
I've had a lot of practice.
>>
No. 14235 ID: 31b52c
File 130170709779.jpg - (14.14KB , 120x125 , icwutudid.jpg )
14235

>>14234

There's some sort of innuendo there...
>>
No. 14236 ID: b6c6fc

>>14229
does that mean my quests aren't furry?
>>
No. 14237 ID: 8c73c8

>>14236
i would say not. it's like that robin hood cartoon where he was a fox. just being an animal person doesn't make it furry.
>>
No. 14238 ID: 70d9eb

Having sexy animals embarrassed in their underwear is furry, though.
>>
No. 14239 ID: 31b52c

>>14238

I think some sexuality can be included without being furry, so long as it's no more than would normally be encountered. Usagi Yojimbo, for example (an excellent comic that I recommend to anyone), hints at the existence of sexual relations in the build-up to a story about illegitimate children. The scene of which you speak (I'm assuming it's the one in Crash Quest) contains no more than normal responses to a situation that came about for perfectly good game reasons. (Also I think it is arguable whether those characters are "sexy").

Which raises another issue, when dealing with quests in particular. To what degree can quest authors be held accountable for being fetishy or for oversexing their quests when a lot of the responsibility for anything that happens can be placed on the suggesters?
>>
No. 14240 ID: e973f4

>>14239
The author has a lot of control over the quest, even if they pretend or even think they don't. "The suggesters told me to" is not really a legitimate defense if someone accuses you of putting fetishy stuff in your quest because you're totally capable of just telling your suggesters "no" and there's nothing they can really do about it if you do.
>>
No. 14241 ID: 70d9eb

don't even act like those tiny animals aren't sex machines
>>
No. 14242 ID: fdd8f1
File 130172573320.jpg - (8.52KB , 244x192 , sonicehwut.jpg )
14242

>>14241
>>
No. 14243 ID: 8c73c8

>>14240
well sure. but if every suggestion is
>put it in
it's kinda hard to ignore without making people mad.
>>
No. 14248 ID: 2563d4

>>14243
The opinion of people who suggest "put it in" doesn't matter. If you make them mad the most likely response is that they give up on your quest and stop suggesting "put it in".

If you literally have no other suggestions then you have pretty chronically failed at setting the tone of your quest or providing any plausible alternatives. Your quest is over as much as if it had no suggestions at all.

Remember: only you can prevent sex quests.
>>
No. 14254 ID: a4debf

>>14248
>Remember: only you can prevent sex quests.
This has to be, like, stickied on top of every page.
>>
No. 14258 ID: f88f02

THen you tell them inquest and in a discussion thread related to it:

No.

No, not even if you beg. No, not even if it makes sense. No, not if you present a fucking thesis on it, because this is my quest. If they continue to be assholes, drop the quest, it's all they deserve for not listening to you.

It's like the tabletop, really. The DM can say No at any time he likes and either walk out or kick everyone out.
>>
No. 14259 ID: 8c73c8

could also gloss over it with a blank image with the words 'and then they fucked' written in it.
>>
No. 14266 ID: 15b51b
File 130184758251.jpg - (28.06KB , 539x502 , iranian_cleric.jpg )
14266

ITT
>>
No. 14268 ID: 07416a

I, for one, enjoy sex quests. I also enjoy serious quests. I think nipplelessness is ridiculous.
>>
No. 14271 ID: 383006

Nipplelessness is next to godliness.
>>
No. 14272 ID: 81f48a

Quests without sex? INCONCIEVABLE!

That's almost as bad a quest that includes consensual sex between two healthy humans of opposite gender in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation!
>>
No. 14273 ID: a9ba96

>>14272
I think that might be taking it a bit too far!
>>
No. 14274 ID: b6b9b2

The majority of the community being completely unfunny and the spouting of tired memes and old jokes is arguable way worse than any assumed or actual perversions.
>>
No. 14275 ID: 1854db

Nipples are distracting. Tozol Quest is better off without them.
>>
No. 14276 ID: c128cf

Hypothesis: adding nipples and genitalia is not dissimilar to ending every other sentence with a tilde.
>>
No. 14277 ID: 70d9eb

>>14276
Does this mean Slinkoboy will start adding nipples to his quests?
>>
No. 14278 ID: 351eda

What the fuck would you do to test that hypothesis?
>>
No. 14282 ID: a41aaf

>>14278
Massive government-funded study.
>>
No. 14283 ID: 351eda

>>14282
Yes, of course. But what expiramental design would you use?
>>
No. 14284 ID: 15b51b

Quest full of Tildes vs Quest full of Naughty Bits vs Standard (Control) Quest.

Metric is earthquake strength and frequency in Iran.
>>
No. 14535 ID: 8c0848

>>14284
I can provide a quest with all nipples. You know I can.
>>
No. 14536 ID: 3046f0

>>14535
But can you provide a quest with all tildes?
>>
No. 14538 ID: 2563d4

>>14536
Well we know that Slinkoboy can't not produce a quest with all tildes.

So basically this is Gnoll vs Slinkoboy vs...uh...someone who makes very standard and generic quests?
>>
No. 14542 ID: 28e94e

>>14538
Slinko vs. Gnoll vs. Test Pattern.
>>
No. 14543 ID: 55c4cf

Digitigrade legs are not built for superior bipedal locomotion, or strength load out for resistance. The extra joints in the legs allow for bigger strides in quadruped locomotion. Having an extra joint creates a larger amount of stress on the muscles attempting to keep the joints rigid.

On the opposite scale, animals with no muscles, and exoskeletons are capable of leaping and lifting a greater exponential amount of weight because there is no stress against their joints virtually at all until a great variable difference.

Digitigrade look neat, and even I use them, but they're more stressful for walking, and they're fairly unbalanced for bipedal actions.
>>
No. 14545 ID: 8bdb6a
File 130316498129.jpg - (259.21KB , 862x852 , whatevs.jpg )
14545

>>
No. 14546 ID: 55c4cf

>>14545

I don't even see how that is a counter to anything. Especially the human who do to having nothing but thighs is not tiring themselves almost at all beyond balancing themselves and using their ball joints to propel the legs.

None of those bipedal creatures are proportionally strong either. I never said they cannot run fast, because it is built almost entirely to run--flee from predators in most of those cases. They're also incredibly imbalanced (and most of them are dead).

The T-rex was proportionally slow and strong for its size, and its strength was in its bite for combat. Unless the jaws are supposed to be a part of the legs themselves.

Again they are built for sprinting, and overexertion of using them fatigues them quickly.
>>
No. 14548 ID: f5e4b4

>>14545

Notice how dinosaurs had huge, very heavy tails to be used as a counterweight for the unbalanced center of gravity that a digitigrade bipedal has.

As for humans, yeah, digitigrade legs work in races and so because they're good for accelerating purposes. Now, watch videos with people walking with them. It's like trying to walk on heels, but worse.

Now, I'm not trying to dis people using digitigrade designs for fantasy and sci-fi designs. digitigrade creatures look pretty badass, and adds to the inhuman feeling. It's just that they don't really work in real life.
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No. 14549 ID: 55c4cf
File 130316690299.jpg - (66.24KB , 500x333 , nomusclesatall.jpg )
14549

I also never said the legs were bad at running, I am saying they are bad for lifting. Show me the digitigrade human fellow dead lifting in a strong man competition and we may have an actual counter.
>>
No. 14550 ID: 8bdb6a

>Notice how dinosaurs had huge, very heavy tails to be used as a counterweight for the unbalanced center of gravity that a digitigrade bipedal has.
What? You're focusing on traits that don't have to do with the legs. They have big tails because their upper bodies are way, way forward of their center of gravtiy. If they have an upright posture, no such imbalance exists.
>Now, watch videos with people walking with them. It's like trying to walk on heels, but worse.
It's almost like having your feet cut off has a deleterious effect on your walking abilities!

Humans with prosthetics aren't going to be quite the same as a creature who evolved that way. A dog with its front legs cut off, who learned to walk on its back legs, won't be as good as a creature who evolved that way. People wearing those weird stilt things won't be as good as a creature who evolved that way. Dinosaurs, who did evolve that way, hunch forwards and need tails to balance out.

But at this point, all you're arguing is "no creature exists which is precisely like a sergal." And you're right. Sergals don't exist. But you are not making a case that this form of locomotion is impossible.

If you exclude humans, you can very easily make the exact same case that bipedal plantigrade locomotion is impossible. No creature exists which walks quite like that. All you've got are things like bears which can stand up and lurch around on two legs, and lizards which can scramble around (but which have long tails and shit) and so on.

The arguments I see reduce down to:
1) Digitigrade legs are unbalancing.
But this is obviously untrue. Humans can walk around on the balls of their feet without falling over.
2) Digitigrade legs can't be strong legs.
But that isn't true either. See: Ostrich riding, multi-ton bipedal dinosaurs, etc.
3) Adding more joints makes things intrinsically worse.
But then horses, which have yet another added joint, and therefore are even worse, must just burst into flames whenever they try to move.

>>14546
I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems to me like you're arguing that bugs have more proportional strength than tyrannosaurs due to their legs.
>>
No. 14552 ID: 8bdb6a
File
Removed

No offense intended, but just in case anyone reading has forgotten how the whole ant strength thing works:

"The real strength of an ant, or any insect for that matter, lies in its diminutive size. Generally speaking, the smaller the critter, the stronger it will be. It's physics, plain and simple.

First, you need to understand a few basic measurements of size, mass, and strength:

* The strength of a muscle is proportional to the surface area of its cross section.
* Surface area is a two-dimensional measurement, and is proportional to the square of its length.
* Volume is a three-dimensional measurement, and is proportional to the cube of its length.

An animal's weight is related to volume, which increases in proportion to the cube of its length, or by a factor of 3. But its strength is related to surface area, which only increases in proportion to the square of its length, or by a factor of 2. Larger animals have a greater disparity between mass and strength. When a large animal needs to lift an object, its muscles must also move a greater volume, or mass, of its own body.

The tiny ant has a strength advantage because of the ratio of surface area to volume. An ant need only lift a small measure of its own weight relative to the strength of its muscles."
>>
No. 14553 ID: 55c4cf

>Digitigrade legs are unbalancing; But this is obviously untrue. Humans can walk around on the balls of their feet without falling over.

Humans don't have tails.

>2) Digitigrade legs can't be strong legs. But that isn't true either. See: Ostrich riding, multi-ton bipedal dinosaurs, etc. I said they tire the body, and are poor for lifting.

Ostriches and dinosaurs aren't proportionally strong.
>3) Adding more joints makes things intrinsically worse. But then horses, which have yet another added joint, and therefore are even worse, must just burst into flames whenever they try to move.

Okay, now you are using hyperbole, and getting off course here. Horses are quadruped. They are built for sprinting and have hooves. They are actually poorly balanced for sudden changes, and poor recovery for broken bones which happens from the previous instance.
Horses are very well built animals and don't have heavy tails. They have high endurance, but their strength isn't a high multiple compared to its muscle weight because most of its build is for carrying itself and speed.

Conversely, monkeys are recorded as being over 4x the strength of a human despite their small size. Monkeys are probably the best example of exerted strength in plantigrade bipedal animals, and because they are wild animals as well it shows the physical potential from required physical exertion on a day-to-day basis.
>>
No. 14554 ID: 8bdb6a
File 130317025781.jpg - (58.71KB , 398x325 , Picture89[1].jpg )
14554

>Humans don't have tails.
So what?

>Ostriches and dinosaurs aren't proportionally strong.
Okay I guess I can explain some more. Or just copy paste wikipedia's explanation because I'm kinda in a hurry, if that's cool with everyone:

"If an animal were scaled up by a considerable amount, its muscular strength would be severely reduced since the cross section of its muscles would increase by the square of the scaling factor while their mass would increase by the cube of the scaling factor. As a result of this, cardiovascular functions would be severely limited.

In the case of flying animals, their wing loading would be increased if they were scaled up, and they would therefore have to fly faster to gain the same amount of lift. Air resistance per unit mass is also higher for smaller animals, which is why a small animal like an ant cannot die by falling from any height.

As was elucidated by Haldane, large animals do not look like small animals: an elephant cannot be mistaken for a mouse scaled up in size. The bones of an elephant are necessarily proportionately much larger than the bones of a mouse, because they must carry proportionately higher weight. Because of this, the giant animals seen in horror movies (e.g., Godzilla) are unrealistic, as their sheer size would force them to collapse. However, it's no coincidence that the largest animals in existence today are giant aquatic animals, because the buoyancy of water negates to some extent the effects of gravity. Therefore, sea creatures can grow to very large sizes without the same musculoskeletal structures that would be required of similarly sized land creatures."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law
>>
No. 14555 ID: 55c4cf

I'm also completely baffled where you are getting the idea that I think locomotion is, "impossible."

I am stating that without the increased number of stressed joints, it would be easier to exert the same amount of force.

For a machine perspective, it is easier to exert more force with a stiff pole than it would be to push a pole guiding another pole with a flexible ligament.

You can have a digitigrade leg and a strong character, but it is very likely that a plantigrade skeleton would be superior.

I have no idea why you are coming away as if I am saying anything other than this is 'impossible.'

Do you often go to extremes over a disagreement?
>>
No. 14556 ID: 8bdb6a

>I am stating that without the increased number of stressed joints, it would be easier to exert the same amount of force.
How much easier? Significantly easier? How do you know that?

>For a machine perspective, it is easier to exert more force with a stiff pole than it would be to push a pole guiding another pole with a flexible ligament.
But legs aren't poles and joints. Having more spring in your step, so to speak, provides advantages.

>You can have a digitigrade leg and a strong character, but it is very likely that a plantigrade skeleton would be superior.
How likely? How do you know that? The heaviest bipeds in history were digitigrade, so obviously it can be used to exert a truly incredible amount of force. The same square-cube law which would cause an ant to die in minutes if it were the size of a dog also prevents most animals from becoming as large as a T-rex. Yet T-rexes existed, and weighed up to six and a half tons. This is a stupendous feat of biology. What do we have to counter that, other than "Well, it seems to me that such and such if you think about poles and sticks"?

Even if digitigrade legs reduce the maximum strength you can lift with your legs, which I'm not ready to grant, it seems that they provide advantages, as well, which would contradict your initial statement in the other thread that digitigrade motion is a major disadvantage.

Most of the bipeds in history have been digitigrade, and frankly, humans are not very far removed from our knuckle-walking ancestors, in the grand scheme of things. We have lots of problems with our knees and backs as we age due to this. Maybe this just the price of walking upright, or maybe, with another few million years of evolution, we might not have stayed plantigrade. I'd guess that digitigrade legs are better shock absorbers, but what do I know.

I can't really speak authoritatively about the mechanics of this, because I'm not an engineer or a skeletal biologist. But if anyone's going to talk like that, I'm going to need to see some math.

>Do you often go to extremes over a disagreement?
I'm so extreme, I shit snowboarders into half-pipes.
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No. 14557 ID: a56a7f
File 130318651177.png - (159.41KB , 1084x644 , wait why did I cap this.png )
14557

>>
No. 14561 ID: 55c4cf
File 130319273132.jpg - (34.95KB , 576x467 , medium.jpg )
14561

“Plantigrade-Feet allows greater forward propulsion than digitigrade and unguligrade mammals.”* (Brown and Yalden)
Digitigrade allows longer strides and increases speed.
Ulguligrade have the most quick and efficient movements.

Research done by Doctor Yalden seems to confirm that plantigrade feet give the most propulsion. I believe since propulsion is different than speed, current studies done do actually show plantigrade have more strength, as I meant it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Yalden
Also studied by J. Cleveland Brown (Who I cannot track down)

*: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2907.1973.tb00178.x/abstract

I'm not going to carry on about the T-rex. The T-rex and its related dinosaur cousins were all strong. It moved around and is a marvel of biology, but as mentioned before its capabilities to move itself however great don't show how much propulsion it is actually creating. It did not use its legs for strength, its incredibly strong body part much like today's crocodiles and similar creatures have obscenely powerful jaws.

However if doctors in the field have shown so far that plantigrade animals is a stronger structure, then who am I to disagree with them.

Most digitigrade animals have a pad or area behind the toes which absorbs the shock created from the heavy force pushing down on both joints, before using the muscles to push off for bursts of speed.

It is true that the advantage of the structure is a long stride and speed, but I've already admitted that earlier. It is just my opinion that a humanoid digitigrade biped would be at a strength advantage in close combat due to having a lower propulsion resulting, as well as a center of gravity more easy to throw off. The center of gravity of extended biped digitigrades is higher, and also raises the center of the whole body. Higher centers of gravity are less balanced for close combat situations.

Now, a very fit biped digitigrade could lower their center of gravity, but conversely a fit biped plantigrade lowers it even further.

I'm not going to argue about this any further, but I had a thing of research with the center of gravity information on it, but I closed it and do not feel like looking it back up to cite it. It can also be countered that fantasy creatures have structurally been set up to have superior center of gravity shifts, but I'll leave that be forever.

It is worthy of note that very few scientists in the field give a damn about this subject because it isn't particularly useful in anything but fantasy settings. Most information about this involves furries.
>>
No. 14564 ID: 383006
File 130321445553.jpg - (18.06KB , 313x525 , 259_Image_001.jpg )
14564

Remember, only Test's "facts" are okay to completely fabricate without backing them up!

The same "how do you know that?" questions apply to him too. Also, those digitigrade dinosaurs had hollow bones like birds (including ostriches). Fact is, we know shit all about how efficient or proportionally strong dinosaur legs are, so the only way they're actually a good example of anything is to say "they existed." The fact that nothing is build like a dinosaur these days says far more for biped digitigrade movement. Ostriches/emus/rheas are technically, but their stance is mostly upright and really pretty plantigrade-like. It supports what Dreamer was saying about joints and stress.
>>
No. 14565 ID: 2563d4

>>14556
>We have lots of problems with our knees and backs as we age due to this. Maybe this just the price of walking upright, or maybe, with another few million years of evolution, we might not have stayed plantigrade. I'd guess that digitigrade legs are better shock absorbers, but what do I know.

It's less a plantigrade/digitigrade thing and more a halving-the-limbs-we're-on-thus-doubling-the-weight and our-hips-are-awkward-joins-to-balance-on thing, AIUI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skeletal_changes_due_to_bipedalism#Significance

(w.r.t. Tozols running (IRC), the main reason I don't think Penji would move like an ostrich is because she's got human-like hips (she's not as wide as a Nedyvor :V ) and upright balance. Unfortunately trying to re-find a decent comparison of avian vs human bipedalism is coming up short. I'm sure I've found one before. :| )
>>
No. 14566 ID: 8bdb6a

>>14564
>The same "how do you know that?" questions apply to him too.
Like what?
>so the only way they're actually a good example of anything is to say "they existed."
The engineering challenges of a six ton biped are pretty significant, so that is saying something.
>The fact that nothing is build like a dinosaur these days says far more for biped digitigrade movement.
What does being hit with an asteroid say about their legs, exactly? And just how many true plantigrade bipeds have existed since then? Remember that dinosaurs appeared to be pretty handily outcompeting early mammals (which grew smaller and smaller right up until the K-T event) so I don't think you can make the claim that dinosaurs were inferior.

>>14561
I can't access that article, but that's something.
>>
No. 14567 ID: a41aaf

Starting at
>>13276
A lot of this has already been gone through.
Plantigrade can leverage an extended heel & Achilles tendon to increase climbing and jumping efficiency, or shorten them for better long-distance running efficiency/endurance.
Digitigrade lacks the highly efficient passive-dynamic walk cycle of plantigrade, but will produce a greater effective force for the same muscle mass than plantigrade.

tl;dr
Plantigrade: efficient energy use during passive-dynamic walk cycle (ability to 'lock knees' when stationary and during walk cycle) and long-distance running via energy storage in ligaments around heel.
Digitigrade: efficient use of muscle mass = better 'power to weight ratio', however more use of muscle mass required (e.g. to maintain antagonistic tension when stationary & during walk cycle) resulting in overall lower efficiency.
>>
No. 14568 ID: 49d8f4

A chimp would beat up a tozol or a sergal or whatever the fuck you furries put up against it.
Chimps > all
>>
No. 14569 ID: 2563d4

>>14567
Oh god, why are you digging that up. Now look what you've done:
>>14568
You've woken up the trolls/fucktards.
>>
No. 14571 ID: e0c719

>>14240
Also, FYI, I refer to this as the "Artist's Excuse", and it is flat-out pants-on-head retarded. 'They told me to' is never a valid excuse in any shape or form, ever.
>>
No. 14572 ID: 2df453

A Human would beat up a tozol or a sergal or whatever the fuck you furries put up against it.
Humans > all
>>
No. 14577 ID: 28e94e

>>14572
But can human fight GRIZZLY BEAR?
>>
No. 14578 ID: e3f578

Grizzly Bear > all
No both
Grizzly Adams > all
>>
No. 14579 ID: c6e396

I think you mean Bear Grylls > all.
>>
No. 14599 ID: a41aaf
File 130333220874.jpg - (49.38KB , 720x480 , Project Grizzly.jpg )
14599

>>14577
Yes.
>>
No. 14600 ID: cf244d

>>14577
Somebody killed a grizzly with his bare hands (and teeth) once.
This is an anomaly, obviously. But strange shit can happen.
>>
No. 14611 ID: 0db7b8

I could kill a grizzly with bare hands.

...if it was a week old.
>>
No. 14612 ID: cf244d

>>14611
No you couldn't, because then the mother would be around.
>>
No. 14670 ID: 11fa54
File 130368922003.png - (509.97KB , 797x596 , formalapology.png )
14670

I would just like to apologise to the moderator for whom I caused trouble. Since I intend to be around here often, it makes little sense for me to be on poor terms with authority.

So yeah. Look, I filled out one of those forms.
>>
No. 14689 ID: bf1e7e

>>14670

It's cool bro, no worries.

Made me laugh, though. So kudos.
>>
No. 14716 ID: 557e92

So hey, since this is the big dumb arguments thread.
What is the board rules change that allowed Bite to troll /draw/ with essentially the exact same content that got deleted and caused a minor shit storm a few months ago?

If draw just lacks any kind of content restrictions now, that's fine. I'm just wondering after a cursory glance at the rules and not seeing an exception made.

Something something mods holding his dick while he etc etc.
>>
No. 14720 ID: 2563d4

>>14716
The shitstorm was that Bite's previous image was deleted despite not really being against the rules. And the rules have been clarified. Mostly to "whatever gets reported and the mods agree is unwanted".

>>/draw/2542
>There are no content restrictions on /draw/ beyond those for the site.
(And indeed there isn't so much as a section for /draw/ in the rules.)

The only overall rules I can see this could hit would be "stir up drama" (although the artist, guy who commissioned it, and creators of the characters depicted were all cool with the image, so any drama is just people getting mad on other's behalves) and "shock images" (which I'm pretty sure is intended to mean "no goatse and friends").

Which is not to say I particularly like the image, or think it doesn't support the horrible-den-of-fetish-faggotry reputation that keeps me from suggesting slightly less net-immune people poke around this site, but this isn't my tgchan.
>>
No. 14722 ID: 70d9eb
File 130392175030.gif - (2.83MB , 300x213 , otter.gif )
14722

I think this otter is cute. What do you think?
>>
No. 14724 ID: 9af61d

>>14722
UGH THIS OTTER IS TOO CUTE. sage IN ALL FIELDS.
>>
No. 14726 ID: 383006

>>14716
People kept telling me to post it in the fucking fanart thread and I was like "no. I'll post it on /draw/" and they were like "It's not even close to the most horrible thing on /draw/" and I was like "Ok, whatever."

If that's me "trolling" we are operating under two totally different definitions of trolling. I originally just directly linked it from my FA in the IRC.
>>
No. 14728 ID: a9b076

>>14716
The rules were rewritten largely because of that shitstorm.

>>14722
"Cute" is determined by having features alike to those of a human baby. It's a perceptio for the pujrpose of encouraging childcare. Since that otter is not a human baby, any appearance it has of cuteness is in fact merely base deception.

Unless you meant "cute" as in "sexually appealing", in which case I cannot contest your claim.
>>
No. 14732 ID: e3f578

>>14728
I think babies are ugly, how does this define the word for people like me?
Because babies are the ugliest fucking type of people I know next to fat nerds
>>
No. 14733 ID: 2563d4

>>14732
It doesn't. "Cute" isn't a technical term so the definition is up to usage.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/cute_1
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cute
>>
No. 14734 ID: 8211e6

>>14733
What's that? Cruxador is being a faggot about definitions again, you say?
>>
No. 14736 ID: f123de

>>14726
If people were actually ASKING you to post it, I withdraw the "trolling" comment. Thanks for at least keeping it to /draw/.
>>
No. 14738 ID: 70d9eb

>>14736
Oh okay so if someone doesn't get permission first to post fanart then they are trolling.
>>
No. 14741 ID: 2563d4

>Implying people on IRC won't beg you to post an image anyway even if it's shitting dicknipple drawn left-handed in MS Paint
>>
No. 14760 ID: 70d9eb

I don't see why it being in the questdis fanart thread or not would matter, since it clearly features a quest character, and Bite's Zane picture is tamer than things that have already been posted. Rape, gorey death, copious amounts of semen, all are already in the fanart thread.
>>
No. 14765 ID: 1854db

>>14760
Commissioned porn isn't. Let's keep it that way.
>>
No. 14766 ID: 8e18cd

>>14765

1) It's still fanart, commissioned or not. And Zane's creator was A-OK with it. I think he has the final ruling.
2) /draw/ content is even worse than the fanart thread, given the circlejerk that sits there.
>>
No. 14767 ID: 383006

I did feel like that picture belongs in part to this community. It is an expression of our hopes and fears. A little bit of each of you lives inside zanebound.jpg.
>>
No. 14768 ID: 70d9eb

>>14765
Commissioned porn is. You are wrong. Congratulations.
>>
No. 14769 ID: 2563d4

>>14767
Man, you guys could have picked a better phylactery.
>>
No. 14770 ID: 1854db

>>14768
Give me an example.
>>
No. 14771 ID: e35a2d

>>14770
I mean, if my drunken sketches of quest characters count as fanart, then I don't see why a commissioned art wouldn't. Their content is usually determined by someone other than me.

Alternately, if somebody paid to have a picture drawn of a character because they liked the quest but wanted somebody more talented to draw the picture, I don't see why that wouldn't count.

Alternately, if somebody was mad because raccoons kept killing their chickens, so they got somebody to draw a raccoon character from the site being raped and strangled, I don't see why that wouldn't count.
>>
No. 14773 ID: 1854db

>>14771
Well, there's another issue right there. If the reason the image was made was not because someone liked the quest, then it's not fan art, is it? Fan art is art from fans, made because they like it and want to show that feeling. A drawing of a quest character being abused because you don't like them/what they look like would count as hate art, along the same lines as hate mail. Fanmail vs hatemail, basically.

But I still want an example of commissioned porn put in the fanart thread. I'll preemptively say that it shouldn't belong there *anyway*, if it does exist and that wasn't just someone remembering incorrectly.
>>
No. 14774 ID: bf1e7e

>>14773

http://quest.lv/kusaba/questdis/src/130033372032.png

Didn't even have to look past the most recent thread.
>>
No. 14775 ID: 6d4ea4

>>14773

The thread has both plenty of 'hate' art and a number of commissioned pieces. I don't understand why the motivation for a drawing matters here; it's still fanart.
>>
No. 14776 ID: 70d9eb

>>14770
http://quest.lv/kusaba/questdis/src/130033372032.png
http://quest.lv/kusaba/questdis/src/130373030028.png
http://quest.lv/kusaba/questdis/src/129292816372.jpg

what
>>
No. 14777 ID: 1854db

>>14775
>plenty of 'hate' art
Really? Like what? Do you mean like, that one where Kyaos is tied up and laying eggs? I didn't like that very much either but at least the situation is realistic.

>examples
Hmm. Alright. I didn't know those were commissions though, and they don't really SEEM like commissioned porn. I mean, where's the self-insert?

But yeah, I don't think I like the idea of commissioned porn- or commissioned art of any kind- going into a general fanart thread like that. That's the kind of stuff I'd expect to either not be shared, or only on display on the artist's gallery.
>>
No. 14778 ID: 70d9eb

>>14777
And I don't like the idea of you thinking you're grand fanart marshal! You're completely full of shit and just keep adding arbitrary requirements to what you think 'belongs' in the fanart thread.
>>
No. 14783 ID: 1854db

>>14778
How am I full of shit? I started with a vague general statement, not bothering to think very much about why I didn't like it, and have been adding in specifics to define my point of view better. It's not arbitrary at all.

You should probably respond to what I'm saying though instead of launching an attack on me.
>>
No. 14785 ID: 70d9eb

You're the one that needs to back your view up because you're the one that wants to change the fanart thread for the worse without giving good reasoning.
You didn't add in specifics to define your point of view better, you changed your point of view after it was proven how you were wrong. If you were sticking with your original view of keeping the fanart thread the same in regards to commissioned porn, you would not be arguing against commissions being in the thread.
You haven't given any reasoning behind why commissions shouldn't be in the thread, but you have given a huge point in favor of them being in the thread because you had no fucking clue which pictures were commissions and which were not.
>>
No. 14787 ID: 66a4bb

Okay, in /draw/ there's a bunch of arguments regarding whether Sergals and Tau are furries.

BUT AMONGST THE MONOLITHIC TEXT-WALLS, I AM STARTING TO CONCUR TO THE IDEA THAT SERGALS AREN'T.

It seems that although I thought I had enough of arguing with furry enthusiasts, it seems that MORE PEOPLE want to kick up dirt over art drawn ages (at least three days) ago.
>>
No. 14790 ID: 3da238

>>14787

Sergals are furries.

All Xenos must be exterminated.

/thread.
>>
No. 14791 ID: 383006

>>14790

The Imperium of Man is fucking retarded.

40k is the worst "sci fi"

/thread
>>
No. 14792 ID: 3da238

>>14791

Pre Heresy Imperium of Man is the best administrative form for a galactic empire ever concieved.

Read up on it before extrapolizing and just lame trolling, to consider otherwise in my opinion is treason against mankind.
>>
No. 14793 ID: 711722

This thread is great!
Just kidding it's terrible.
>>
No. 14794 ID: 6b2b68

>>14792
I can't tell if you're trying to be funny or if you actually think 40k is in any way a serious setting and not a self-aware parody.
>>
No. 14795 ID: 2ce0c7
File 130416591052.jpg - (55.93KB , 467x286 , 1292631634903.jpg )
14795

Imperium of Man (pre-heresy)was designed as a big fuck yeah to the people who finally wanted COMPETENCE and a big FUCK YOU to those that think mankind has unsolvable problems and/or the good guys are faggy.

Imperium of Man. Efficient. Awesome. Competence.
A fact made even more clear by contrast with the post-heresy distopia. The authors really transmitted a message.
>>
No. 14796 ID: 383006

>>14792
Why on earth would I ever listen to anyone who would say "extrapolizing" instead of "extrapolating?" In other words, you are an idiot.

It is pretty obvious that you didn't understand what I was saying before. I was making the same kind of 'argument' you were, only my facts were actually correct.

/thread
>>
No. 14797 ID: 3da238

>>14794

Oh look, another summerfag with the 40k parody propaganda.

Listen. 40k Is what you want it to mean to you.

Not what 4chan summer threads want you to think.

(There are no summerfags. Just fags. Like the fags that don't realize 40k started as a giant hilarious parody.)
>>
No. 14799 ID: 3da238

>>14796

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/extrapolat/paradigma

Sorry for my shitty maternal language grammar issues I did not choose to be imprinted into my skull.

Really dismissing a point proven with actual facts ( novels and worthy fluff ) just because the sentence was constructed poorly?
>>
No. 14800 ID: 2563d4

>>14794
The level of self-awareness seems to vary, and is worryingly sparse among the fanbase.

>>14787
Well you came to the right thread! Look up, around >>14108 -ish downward.

(tl;dr: Those who are unhappy with which side of the furry line they lie (and nobody is ever unhappy to not be furry) like to try to redefine the term until it's either so common as to be normal, or so they don't count as one.)
>>
No. 14801 ID: f5b19d

>>14797

This is all very well and good...

...BUT WE ARE DRIFTING VIOLENTLY OFF-TOPIC.

ARE SERGALS FURRIES? I'M STARTING TO THINK NOT. IF THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SOME SORT MYTHICAL CREATURE, THEN I THINK THEY AREN'T. IF I DID, THEN I'D HAVE TO LABEL THINGS LIKE:

*GOBLINS
*ALMOST EVERY FICTIONAL ALIEN EVER CONCIEVED
*YETIES, SASQUATCHES, AND ASSOCIATED PRODUCTS
*STREET SHARKS
*A BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS THAT DON'T IMMEDIATELY SPRING TO MIND

I THINK WE SHOULD ONLY LABEL THINGS 'FURRY' THAT ARE LIKE HUMANOID 'WOLVES,' 'FOXES,' AND ALL THE OTHER UNORIGINAL STEREOTYPES.
>>
No. 14802 ID: 2563d4

>>14797
>40K IS NOT A PARODY IT IS A SERIOUS LIFESTYLE MESSAGE

>>14799
>Complete faliure to recognize that >>14796 is parodying >>14791 and >>14790
>>
No. 14803 ID: 2563d4

>>14801
Sergals are sharkwolves. The creator defined special genitals for them and draws porn of them. The most notable character of their species---Rain is to Sergals as Drizzt is to Derp Elves---has "raaaaape" as her defining characteristic. They are as furry as fuck.

Also a discussion in which you treat "LABEL THINGS FURRY" in the same way as "LABEL THEM FAIR GAME" is not going to go well on a site which is rampantly furry.
>>
No. 14804 ID: f5b19d

>>14803

OKAY THEN. YOUR POINTS NOW HAVE VIOLENTLY SHIFTED MY VIEWPOINT BACK TO ITS HAPILLY CLOSE-MINDED WAY.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WEBSITE IS 'RAMPANTLY FURRY;' SOMETHING I CAN DO JACK-SHITE ABOUT. MY BEST SOLUTION IS TO SIMPLY IGNOAR IT.
>>
No. 14805 ID: 4f9269
File 130416726233.jpg - (55.10KB , 325x208 , 1300744016_43_final.jpg )
14805

>Science-FICTION
>Implying any normal person would take fiction too seriously.

Yeah, I'm clearly thinking things better.
By saying that it's some measure of example I reffer to the important things. I do not take into consideration things that are meant to be funny or the fact that it was written in the 70s.

Imperium is a good way to organize stuff, a good reason because it constantly improved itself. (talking about pre-Heresy)
>>
No. 14806 ID: 87fc7a

>>14805
I'M JUST GOING TO JUMP IN HERE AND SAY YOU'RE WRONG, BECAUSE WARHAMMER'S REAL!
>>
No. 14807 ID: f5e4b4

Sergals are furries, were created by a furry artist to tell his/her furry stories and for people to have their little furry RPs.

They're Mary Sue sparkle dogs. Deal w/it.
>>
No. 14808 ID: 3da238
File 130416996920.png - (297.77KB , 1024x768 , Marinefistfinal.png )
14808

>>14807

I am dealing with it.
>>
No. 14811 ID: 6b2b68
File 130417660288.png - (1.73MB , 1000x1364 , Torori on Patrol PNG.png )
14811

>>14797
I have quite literally browsed /tg/ for years now, less so now than before, but I do think it's funny you're calling me a "summerfag" in spring. 40k is meant to be taken as seriously as Metalocalypse, and if you need any proof, actually read through Rogue Trader.

A summerfag is supposed to define someone who is "cancer" to /tg/, someone who only likes space marines and 4E D&D and is likely in high school, given that a "summerfag" is supposed to be someone who is out of school in the summer.

Wait, you know that my name is a 40k term, right? And that I collect and play both White Scars and Tau?

>>14807
Mick never had RP's and her story was about a human stuck in a low-tech civil war amongst aliens who was rapidly suffering from a worse and worse case of amnesia. The sergals and Rain were the aggressor aliens he was captured by.

>>14803
Rape is not Rain's defining characteristic. She never rapes anyone in the actual story she's from, and there's more images of her eating children than anything else involving two people. "Rain likes to Rape" was the 4chan meme spawned from her creepy appearance.

>Sergals are sharkwolves
>nothing about them is lupine
>sergals are sparkledogs
>good sergals don't sparkle
Cool story bro.

Granted, there's shitty fan characters of everything under the sun, and sergals are NO FUCKING EXCEPTION, but the good images based on the source material are pretty grand.

Like this one.
>>
No. 14812 ID: 8e18cd

> Warhammer 40k is a serious setting.

Because Rogue Trader (AKA 1st edition) was a TOTALLY serious setting. The fact they turned a SciFi parody (Dark Age of Technology? Oh wait... that was totally parodied off from DUNE)in the GRIMDARK setting it is now, is laughable. Mostly because it reeks of inconsistency and stupidity.

The only time 40k is enjoyable it's when it's over-the-top funny like Retribution or Soulstorm.

If someone actually tries to take Warhammer 40k seriously, it's just funny.


In other words:
LOL 40k.
>>
No. 14814 ID: 2563d4

>>14811
>She never rapes anyone in the actual story she's from
Ok, fine. "The most notable character of their species is heavily sexualised by her creator". Hell, Mick's FA gallery even has an entry entitled "Rain's well-used pussy".
>>
No. 14815 ID: 1854db

>>14811
I like that image a lot.

That said, knowing now that Sergals came from a story of a human trapped amongst them... Yeah, that's pretty standard furry fantasy there, and it doesn't make me think of Mick any more highly. Making the human a mary sue is usually how it goes, but I dunno if that was the case, having not read the story.

>>14814
This is a more serious complaint though.
>>
No. 14816 ID: b50664

gog DAMNIT

We need a formal definition of what "furry" is, and until we have it it is just as useless to make any sort of argument or debate over what's furry and what's not as it is to argue what kinds of music are "good"!
>>
No. 14817 ID: e3f578

>>14816
People would just argue over it, then never agree on it.
Who gives a shit over something like that anyway. If we define it anyway and enforce the definition, we become one of those faggots obsessed over definitions.
It seriously is just fetish material. Just leave it be because that all it fucking is.
>>
No. 14819 ID: 383006

>>14808
If I draw hermy foxtaurs raping space marines will that make me oh so edgy and cool?

Also, pointing out one possibly non-stupid thing that exists in the 40k universe, ignoring the vast quantity of extremely retarded things, and then claiming it isn't retarded in no way proves your point.

I love how defensive you got when your exact same argument was turned around on you.

As for you other fucking idiots from 4chan, attempting to decide whether or not something is furry just so you know it's OK to hate is retarded. You should hate things because they are retarded, not because they are "furry". The category isn't some automatic cancer bin that taints you if you accidentally think something in it is cool.

I think the "clever" design of sergals is a fucking ridiculous and nonsensical mishmash, and their fans are almost universally giant morons who take their precious 'canon' way too seriously - hey it's exactly the same as 40k! you guys should be making out, not fighting.
>>
No. 14820 ID: 2563d4

>>14817
>would
Try "do".

>>14819
>As for you other fucking idiots from 4chan, attempting to decide whether or not something is furry just so you know it's OK to hate is retarded.
Also, this.
>>
No. 14821 ID: 28e94e

>>14816
Furry: A term that means absolutely nothing because the furry community is so diverse

On topic (if there is such a thing here): Whether or not sergals are furry depends on how they're used. /tg/'s sergals, and by extension our sergals, are generally not furry. The version of sergals used by most furries (tits, standard furry "raperaperape" psychology) is totally furry. And Mick's porn is just Mick being Mick, don't think much of it.
>>
No. 14822 ID: 2563d4

>>14821
>Claiming furry means nothing
>Proceeding to categorise things as furry/not furry
Cool argument bro
>>
No. 14824 ID: 28e94e

>>14822
I don't even know anymore man
>>
No. 14827 ID: e3f578

hahaha oh man
Can we argue about something more fun and less trite? Like why in the fuck do people get married... or better yet why do so many give a fuck about that Prince Harry guy's wedding.

Because marriage is really fucking dumb ball and chain thing. And so is America paying attention to that damn thing.
>>
No. 14828 ID: 15b51b

If something being furry hinges on how much porn there is of it, a quick /draw/ browse confirms that Tau and Necrons are more furry than two purple fox men having sex.
>>
No. 14829 ID: f5fe2f

>>14827
It's traditional. People get married because people get married. And some folks may think it's silly to need government/church validation for a long-term relationship, but if you'tr in that sort of relationship anyway, getting married is sort of easy (as long as it's a heterosexual relationship) and has some practical benefits.

>Because marriage is really fucking dumb ball and chain thing.
I don't know about that. You imply through this statement that it is desirable for either member of a relationship to fuck off whenever they feel like it. I don't feel that the comparably minor procedures involved with marriage and divorce are disproportionately significant compared to the significance that should be afforded to alterations in a relationship of that caliber.
More importantly, folks in that sort of a relationship tend to reproduce. Do you not feel that a traditional family structure with no less than two parents who remain constant throughout a child's growth is a positive thing? If you do not, then your opinion would be directly counter to a substantial body of evidence such that it would be considered ridiculous by anyone with even a modicum of education in the field of child development.
>>
No. 14831 ID: 2563d4

>>14827
Events like these are one of the occasions the Royals do something of value to justify their upkeep---namely, drawing in foreigners to come gawp at them and boost tourism. (I believe they're also diplomatically useful.)

Don't let that stop you being cool and edgy, though.
>>
No. 14834 ID: e3f578

>>14829
I wasn't really paying much attention to the reproduction aspect of marriage or the healthy development of the child. Two people staying together longterm, with our without a child, is possible without marriage and they could definitely stay together to help said child grow. Romance doesn't even need to last, the relationship could devolve into being just friends, best friends or otherwise, and they decide to be like roommates for the child's sake. Granted, thinking that much about the child's development as justification for living as roommates is unlikely. It could get substantially awkward in the household should each parent introduce their own new romantic partners to the household on top of that.

I guess my main problem with marriage is that, beyond tax benefits, is that it sounds like an excuse to throw a big fancy party and doesn't really have much difference than a long-term relationship without marriage. Then, should the couple want to split up, they have to go through the complicated process of divorce, which is far more difficult then getting married thanks to all the paperwork and decisions that go with custody and property. I will coin up to the fact that my desire to be cool and edgy, as noted above, does have a bit to do with why I think marriage is pointless too.

I've found commenwealth marriage a lot more cooler, at least that's what I think it's called when you've been in a relationship long enough that the government practically views you as married.
>>
No. 14835 ID: 383006

>>14834
It's called 'common law' marriage, and not all states recognize it. Basically, the state says that if you're going to act like a married person, then the state is going to deem you to be married. Most of the time, it's a matter of cohabiting with the other person and banging for a period of years.

I think that marriage is useful because it is a big to-do. Without the big ceremony and stuff, the people who decide to do it wouldn't stick with it as long, because it wouldn't be seen as a very big deal. I think it's better for folks with kids to stay together. Divorce and custody is always bad on a child. Dunno.

If two people aren't going to have kids, though, it's pure legal benefits and doesn't really mean much as far as I'm concerned, other than an outward manifestation of those people's desire to be monogamous, and they can do that without the ceremony.
>>
No. 14836 ID: 424bcd

>>14834
Marriage is a primarily religious institution/ritual, if you don't feel need to adhere to any then I agree it serves little purpose on its own.

The fact that government gets in on the act is merely the fact that despite what most western nations would love to say, there is simply a lot of cross-pollination between church and state. It's the way it's always been, and the way it always will be. Just human nature to try and align power with power.
>>
No. 14837 ID: 467bf4

>>14836

>Marriage is a primarily religious institution/ritual, if you don't feel need to adhere to any then I agree it serves little purpose on its own.

This.
>>
No. 14838 ID: 70d9eb

Marriage is a part of almost all cultures regardless of their religion. Go live with the Mosuos in the Himalayan mountains if you want to be without marriage, otherwise get used to marriage existing, because it's not going to stop existing.
>>
No. 14843 ID: 383006

>>14836
I don't agree with you entirely. I think Lawyerdog is more on point. How family groups are structured is a sort of fundamental aspect of how the society made up of those same family groups will also be structured. Each state expresses different notions about family and what values it wants to promote. In California, for instance, no fault divorces are quick. In Louisiana everything is heavily focused around the kids and making sure they have a stable environment and a steady supply of cash. It's a way to promote and recognize social stability no matter whether the people are christian or completely secular.

The fact that the ceremonies are religious has little to do with the state's interest in regulating what marriage means and how it operates, although certainly the religious views of the legislators and voting majority will make a difference there.

It is an area of law that is almost entirely left in the hands of the states, except for the rights of parents to determine how their children are raised, which the supreme court recognized as a fundamental right under the constitution.

Different cultures do it differently, but we all have ways of recognizing stable unions of family groups and who 'belongs' to whom.
>>
No. 14844 ID: 1854db

Marriage comes with tax breaks and stuff.
>>
No. 14846 ID: bf1e7e

>>14843

It's kind of weird how these things always come up completely independent of you and RIGHT WHEN YOU'RE STUDYING THE SHIT OUT OF THEM.
>>
No. 14847 ID: 70d9eb

would you marry aleister crowley if it meant you got his hat y/n
>>
No. 14852 ID: f5fe2f

Okay well BiteQuest is pretty much the paragon of being right in this discussion, which makes sense given the circumstance.

>>14834
I agree that the parties are a bit over the top. I don't feel that any occasion is an inadequate occasion to throw a party, but people spend a fucking ton of money on marriages.
I also agree with the implied notion that marriage is a largely pointless institution when children are not considered. I don't see why children wouldn't be considered, however.

I furthermore feel that marriage shouldn't be a public institution, just based on high-minded idealism rather than any practical reason. I don't believe it's any of the government's business who's in a relationship with who. As it is my understanding that all of the legal benefits of marriage, save for hospital visitation rights, are obtainable through non-marriage contracts, it seems to me that it would be viable to eliminate marriage as a civil institution altogether. However I'm not sure what the system is in states other than my own, or how much it varies, nor can I foresee what societal effects such an abolition might have. It would probably have fairly negative results overall, as idealism often does.
>>
No. 14853 ID: 383006

I don't want to "swing my dick around" but, yeah, I took my Family Law exam on Tuesday.

>>14852
This is basically not true, especially concerning getting the same benefits through private contract. Depending on the state, there is really no way to get most of the benefits from marriage privately.

There are other very good reasons not to do this. Firstly, making the same benefits be a tied together bunch of things means that people won't have to get lawyers to get married (which is what would happen if it were a bunch of separate contracts if you wanted to get some rights) and would keep people with more money/power from abusing people in a weaker financial situation. This is especially true of something that is supposed to be about feelings and junk. Reducing it to essentially a business meeting sort of flies in the face of the spirit of marriage.

Secondly, there is no way to get the absolute strongest protections that marriage offers: Things like the interspousal bar to suit and the husband/wife privilege (meaning that a spouse can choose not to testify concerning confidential communications that the other spouse made to them) are super law powers. Every single state has the evidentiary privilege. These and many other of the special rights that married people have actually exist to protect the privacy of the marriage and give the spouses more control over their affairs than unmarried couples have, because the state/country generally wants to protect the couple and give them increased autonomy.

Not to say all marriage law is great and perfect, but I think its a sphere where the government is generally offering increased protection and autonomy to promote theoretically more stable family structures, and that's generally a good thing, and an area that would be sort of a giant mess if it were entirely private.
>>
No. 14861 ID: 3e141e

HEY GUYS. What's up with the ton of text quests recently?
I open first page and shit jumps into my face like on a japanese scat party.
Seriously, half the quests are text quests and 80% of the rest has terrible art.

I am disappointed.
>>
No. 14865 ID: 2563d4

>>14861
I guess it's Easter break and a load of talentless students are making text quests out of boredom?

Also quite a few of the good authors are busy one way or another, and if you're not updating daily you're going to get flooded off page 0 by text quests.
>>
No. 14866 ID: f5fe2f

>>14861
Who cares? It's not like you're obligated to read them.
>>
No. 14869 ID: 28e94e

I never got why everybody hates text quests so much.
>>
No. 14882 ID: 788dee

>>14869
They're like real quests, except not even nearly as good, don't have images (Google image search does not count), are made by people who want to make a quest "just like everyone else" but don't want to put in any effort whatsoever, bump infinitely better threads off the front page (only relevant on 4chan, though), still pretend they're better because of some retarded notion seemingly about text-only being better because text quests are like the novels to the comics of image quests, fully ignoring the fact that image quests almost exclusively have better writing, pretending their quantity has any relation to quality (protip: NO) because they know absolutely fuck-all about Soviet warfare in WW2, fully misunderstanding the oh-so famous quote.

AND because text quests detract from proper quests by associating the term "quest" with the abominable volume of sheer drivel that is text quests.
>>
No. 14883 ID: 2563d4

>>14882
That's a pretty comprehensive summary of the arguments, yeah.
>>
No. 14888 ID: 28e94e

>>14882
Ahem.

You seem to have confused Bob with text quests in general.

Let me address each argument (forgive me if I miss a few):

>not even nearly as good
Unsupported opinion. Moving on.

>don't have images (Google does not count)
While I will admit that images are generally a great help, I don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be. And Google art is fine by me as long as the images are relevant and consistent with the descriptions (O is pretty good about this, Bob not so much).

>are made by people who want to make a quest "just like everyone else" but don't want to put in any effort whatsoever
See top of post.

>still pretend they're better
Again, see top.

>pretending their quantity has any relation to quality
>implying that there aren't image quests that are just as bad if not worse
>implying that consistency is a bad thing

>because text quests detract from proper quests by associating the term "quest" with the abominable volume of sheer drivel that is text quests.
No.
>>
No. 14891 ID: 788dee

>>14888
>>Unsupported opinion.
Except that even average image quests are almost exclusively better than the best text quests.

>>While I will admit that images are generally a great help, I don't think it's as big a deal as you make it out to be.
Images are an integral part of image quests. Not just "helpful".
>>And Google art is fine by me as long as the images are relevant and consistent with the descriptions
The difference between "Google art" and actual quest-specific images is that "Google art" takes no effort and skill while actually drawing a quest successfully takes both. And images in quests are supposed to be images directly related to the quest, not just a "helpful" sideshow.

>>See top of post.
Ha ha no. Text quests are made by people who can't even be bothered to make the minimum effort of carving out a simple image representative of the quest. They extend this attitude to the writing.

>>Again, see top.
Again, ha ha no. Even pretending to be equal to image quests is horrible, excessive arrogance and detraction of image quests.

>implying that consistency is a bad thing
Being consistently sub-par at best is a bad thing.

>>No.
Yes. They pour out this shit, call themselves quests and count themselves among the actual, good quests (WHICH ARE IMAGE QUESTS, BY THE WAY, IF THAT WAS NOT CLEAR), directly implying that they, the products of less than minimum effort, are equal to actual quests made with real effort.
Drawing the shittiest image takes time, while text quests can just say "you/character does X" as a sidenote.
>>
No. 14892 ID: c25b49

>>14888
Bob actually suffers from these problems far less than do "text quests in general"

Text quests are usually shitty. This isn't to say that there are no shitty image quests, but if someone puts the effort into making a good quest, they will expend the time to make images (at least when moving at a tgchan pace).

While I do not disagree that it is unlikely that a desire for conformity is the sole reason people make text quests, the desire to be a quest runner, (particularly a popular one) and to attain the status that confers is the birth of a great many shitty quests.
We know text authors don't want to put in more effort, because if they did, they would draw pictures.

>No.
Contesting this only serves to make you look like a fool. This phenomenon is clearly visible on /tg/. The body of quests that run there is now entirely composed of text quests. While those lack the majority of the faults common to text quests here, they nonetheless clearly illustrate that the principle which you are denying is in fact a real thing that happens.
>>
No. 14893 ID: c25b49

>>14891
Google art, despite not being directly made for a quest, may nonetheless contribute positively to immersion and the feel of the thing. Your dislike if it is ourely opinion.

I believe by "consistency" he meant "they update consistantly". This is undeniably a positive aspect of a quest.

As an addendum, you are acting like a faggot (feel free to request details if you are unclear on what I mean by this). While how you act is certainly your own decision, do be aware that acting like a faggot is not conducive to arguing successfully.
>>
No. 14894 ID: 2563d4

>>14893
>do be aware that acting like a faggot is not conducive to arguing successfully
>Cruxador
Oh lordy lord. Thanks for the laugh.
>>
No. 14895 ID: 788dee

>>14893
I've only seen Googled images used either as 1) thematically somewhat relevant filler and/or to make it easier to separate the OP from suggestions or 2) as a cheap trick to imply that your text quest is as "cool" as whatever is in the image, without you having to actually make any fucking effort whatsoever to make the quest ACTUALLY "cool" through description and actual logical progression, let alone actually drawing what the suggesters are supposed to see as opposed to being a cheap fuck with no balls.
>>
No. 14897 ID: 28e94e

>>14891
In order:
>circular logic
>definition of quests that includes images... facepalm.jpg
>assumptions
>assumptions, outright stereotyping of text quest authors (!)
>weird text quest wank
>more unsubstantiated assumptions
>more weird text quest wank, seriously wtf

>>14892
>>14893
oh my god, I agree with Cruxador! The world must be ending!
>>
No. 14898 ID: f5fe2f

>>14894
After reading this post, I laughed quite a bit too. So thanks for that!
By "acting like a faggot" I meant specific mannerisms, such as "ha ha no" and "good quests (WHICH ARE IMAGE QUESTS, BY THE WAY" rather than as a generic pejorative.

>>14895
The first usage is basically what I'm referring to. Obviously, doing this poorly does not contribute to the quest, and even doing it well contributes less than a drawing made purposely for the quest. But nonetheless, such tangentially related images can help set tone. For an example of this general principle working well, see Madoka, which starts out with things in the opening credits, setting a tone somewhat different from the tone of the actual show, and ending with a tone which is more akin to the tone of the show turned up to 11, thus maximizing the actual effect the show has on people's emotions through things not directly a part of it. As a more direct analogue, that show often cuts away, showing still images of the city, or chairs, or whatever the fuck.
The fact that text quests do not generally do it nearly as well has no bearing on the fact that it is a valid practice.
>>
No. 14899 ID: 28e94e

>>14897
Now that I look at it, this response is kind of vague. Just ask and I'll explain some of the more unclear parts in depth.
>>
No. 14900 ID: e41ad5

>Text vs Image

Oh god not this shit again. Seriously? Seriously. It's like arguing that a self-illustrated novel is fundamentally written better than one that is not illustrated.

Here is how I see it:

A text quest CAN be better than an image quest. But it is fucking hard to pull off. Effort must be equal. And writing well is a sight harder than scribbling something up in MSpaint that looks like what I want to convey. Arting WELL is just as hard.

Furthermore, by their nature, text quests are much, much harder to read. Take Golem Quest vs, say, Mudyquest. In terms of sheer time it takes to read both, and understand what you have read, and comprehend it, mudy quest will fly by faster, despite having twice the threads at this point. THis is because it's far easier to look at a picture, maybe read some dialogue, and bam, there you are.

Meanwhile, Bob has to elucidate every part of what the picture would convey for a normal update. Even if he's using a picture, he describes the subject of that picture anyway (Usually, the picture is of a specific character or item) and has to maintain an 'image' with words.

This means that the bar for a good text quest is harder to reach for the average Joe, but at the same time easier to attempt.

Meanwhile, an image quest has a lower bar for what is 'good' versus 'fucking terrible', and is harder to attempt, or at least, keep up.

Again, text is not fundamentally worse than image. However, the bars of skill and quality differ - and the usual person trying to use a text quest does it not out of respect for the medium, but because of a lack of desire to spend time doodlan.

Does that make any sense?
>>
No. 14901 ID: 28e94e

>>14900
This is a very good explanation.
>>
No. 14902 ID: 1854db

>>14900
I agree with most of that, but to me, the problem with this text vs image argument is... Well, people expect text quests to have good writing, while they don't expect image quests to have good writing *or* good art. There is a double standard here.

Let me explain myself a little better before people start yelling- 'good' art for a quest, in my opinion, requires you to be able to see the location, the characters, and illustrate important objects and choices. It needs to outline the situation and give you enough information to proceed, just by looking at the image. Text in image quests tends to be used to explain details that the art either cannot or does not illustrate clearly. Also, dialogue. I've found that the writing in most image quests is pretty damn flat, and people love LonelyWorld's quests even though they have frequent grammatical or spelling errors. Quite a few text quests also have flat writing, and the worst ones don't even give you enough information to know what to do next. Yet people only complain about the text quests.

To sum up, complaining about 'bad writing' in a text quest is only valid if the writing fails to clearly explain what is going on and what you can do about it. That makes a terrible text quest. If you dismiss most text quests because they aren't as good as books, well, you're just being a snob. Lower your standards and have FUN, goddamn it. Also, stop ruining it for other people by bashing text quests whenever they get brought up.

If you won't stop, then at least start bashing the bad image quests too.
>>
No. 14903 ID: b6c6fc

>I've found that the writing in most image quests is pretty damn flat, and people love LonelyWorld's quests even though they have frequent grammatical or spelling errors

it's not my fault writing is hard!

B(
>>
No. 14904 ID: e41ad5

>>14903
You have almost as much trouble with it as BG does!
>>
No. 14909 ID: 2563d4

>>14902
>Well, people expect text quests to have good writing, while they don't expect image quests to have good writing *or* good art. There is a double standard here.
Hahahano. You do not speak for "people".

There are plenty of image quests with shitty writing.

There are even more text quests with shitty writing because if you are running a text quest chances are you are not even trying because the investment of effort required is a whole order of magnitude lower.

Text quests are bad because people who run text quests are lazier and half-assing it more.
>>
No. 14910 ID: 6b2b68

>>14902
I do bash the unquestionably bad image quests.

Pretty frequently, actually. In fact, I criticize them more than the text quests because I don't read text quests because I for one refuse to lower my standards.

I've criticized everyone from Lucid to LW in the past over various things, and written scathing reviews of certain other quests, but in the end they're still my opinions and people will disagree, even when this makes them wrong on the internet.
>>
No. 14911 ID: e41ad5

>>14909
>Say others are generalizing
>Do it yourself

Hah.

So I guess Bite is lazy, huh?
>>
No. 14912 ID: 2563d4

>>14911
What Shot means to say here is that he rapes puppies. He rapes them because he doesn't understand the difference between generalisation for concise argumentation and putting words in other people's mouths. But he also says it's because he enjoys it.
>>
No. 14913 ID: e41ad5

Bite runs (Or ran, we aren't really sure) a text quest. He called all text quest authors lazy or half-assing.

Therefore, he calls Bite lazy and says he's half-assing what's probably one of the best quests on the site.
>>
No. 14914 ID: 1854db

>>14910
Do you repeatedly bring up a single bad quest every time it, or image quests in general, is mentioned?
>>
No. 14915 ID: 383006

Imma start updating it again once my finals is over. Bleh.
>>
No. 14916 ID: f5fe2f

>>14900
This is entirely true.

>>14902
The largest issue I see with this argument is that you fail to consider: Image quests have both text and image, while text quests have only text. For this reason, it would not be unreasonable that standards be lower for image quests. That said, image quests with only the bare minimum in terms of both art and story don't pick up bigger audiences than text quests do.

>Yet people only complain about [spelling and grammar issues in] the text quests.
In my perception, such complaints are about the same for each, hovering at a level of "almost none".

>If you won't stop, then at least start bashing the bad image quests too.
People bash shitty image quest all the time.

>>14910
The impression I'm getting from this post is "I'm a badass who criticizes anyone!". Just throwing that out there.

>>14913
Bite is usually considered an exception to such general statements. Which makes sense, since as a text-quest author he's anomalous in a lot of ways.
>>
No. 14917 ID: 383006

OH, and just to contribute to the dumb argument - I take my time and write carefully when I'm doing Sammy updates. If I am all tired or something and can't write for shit, I'll usually hold off updating.

For my art quests, just look at the text in the last five or six Survivors updates. It sucks asssss. I just wanted to draw and quest and shit, and it's got the easiest art out of what I'm running, so I don't care if I halfass the text as long as I spend time on the picture.

I turned Sammy from some troll shit into a legit quest so I could update when I was at work or in school or something if it was slow. It takes me about a third of the time as an image update. For most of my quests, I spend about half or 1/3 of the time on the text as I do on the picture. It is a lot less work. For Bite Quest, I would spend time on the text because I disagree with the guy who thinks the image should convey everything. I intentionally don't do that in Lahamu, for instance, because the pictures are supposed to be like the pictures in a story book and just sort of convey what's happening generally. I don't think picture quests are like comics. I rely on the text frequently. I don't think that makes my quests bad. For Survivors, I intentionally have tried to not do that, though, other than the dialogue, obviously.
>>
No. 14919 ID: 2563d4

>>14913
Because he still can't understand that a generalisation does not explicitly cover every single possible instance under its scope, what Shot means here is that he has finished with the current puppy and is now eating its corpse.
>>
No. 14922 ID: 6b2b68

>>14916
I wouldn't say "badass" or anything, I just don't believe in pussyfooting around when you can give someone legitimate critique to try to help them get better.

People had legitimate criticism for the beginning of Colony Guard (which has since improved), people have had criticism for most of what Vyt has done (especially ratsturbation), I just wanted to say that the image quests aren't always free of criticism when the text quests get the lion's share, though I wish I wasn't one of the few that criticize given my opinions on the matter can be a little extreme, especially when working a lot of forced overtime here at the happiest place on earth.

It's been mentioned earlier that for a text quest the bar should be lowered, to which I say "Hell no." If you can't write better than Stephanie Meyer, maybe you should use the text quest to continuously improve. It's what I did with Hatch, and look at my art from the start versus now. If someone did that with their writing, if they focused on improvement with everything they wrote they'd probably start having a text quest maybe as good as Sammy before too horribly long, but apart from Sammy there basically aren't any good text quests because few people here can write.

Oh, I'm not saying I'm a perfect writer either, I just learn from my mistakes, and I've made a lot of mistakes with Hatch.

I crave critique for my quests actually, but nobody ever says anything, possibly because I haven't had time to update in forever.

>>14914
Not every time.
>>
No. 14925 ID: 788dee

>>14900
>It's like arguing that a self-illustrated novel is fundamentally written better than one that is not illustrated.
No. We're not arguing that Twilight with pictures is better than Lord of the Rings without pictures. We're arguing that Twilight fanfiction is nowhere near the level of, for example, Frank Miller's works.
So far I'm still seeing all the arguments in defense of text quests being bullshit thinly veiled implications about text quests being like novels in terms of quality and that image quests aren't held to the same standards because there are several good image quests while text quests are almost exclusively utter shit.

And Furbies Fur Jegus does not count because the author has previously proven himself to give at least half a flying fuck about making an effort by means of authoring at least one image quest.

I almost wish to assume that all these people defending text quests are text quest authors who are hurt as all bitches in their impotent butt because their sub-par shit isn't considered the equal of actual, good quests. You know, image quests.
>>
No. 14926 ID: 788dee

You know what, show me a fucking text quest that's actually good and is not Fur Jegus.

And even if we ignore the author of Jebus Fursson, it's still only one (1) decent text quest among many.
As opposed to, you know, several half-decent and a handful of good image quests out of many. Because there's a fucking connection here. Namely, one about text quests being almost exclusively shit while image quests are like any other medium with varying quality. To wit, text quests are shit and it's actually a good idea with a ridiculously minute chance of failure to minimize/ignore them by default.
>>
No. 14929 ID: bf1e7e

>Quite a few text quests also have flat writing, and the worst ones don't even give you enough information to know what to do next. Yet people only complain about the text quests.

Bad Writing + Bad Images > Bad Writing + No images.

>If you won't stop, then at least start bashing the bad image quests too.

Because people never talked about how they should run FlynnMerk off the site or anything like that.
>>
No. 14930 ID: e41ad5

>>14925
Again:

>The bar of entry and continuance for text quests is lower, while the skill necessary to pull them off is higher.

>The bar of entry and continuance for image quests is higher, while the skill necessary to pull them off is lower.

>You know what, show me a fucking text quest that's actually good and is not Fur Jegus.
>Blood quest (Completed, the text quest on /tg/), Dragon quest (Running, /tg/), Harlem quest (Running, /tg/), Zeon Quest (will never fucking end, /tg/), Commander quest (Running, /tg/)
>Maybes:
>Blood Quest (Completed, /quest/), Ant Quest (Haitus, /quest/)

Again, assuming one medium is simply better is a fucking fallacy, like saying live theater is better than radio drama. Or live action is better than cartoons.

I am not defending shitty text quests. Again. I am not defending shitty text quests.

All that needs to happen for a good text quest is for the author to give a shit and be skilled at writing. Unfortunately, very few individuals are like this - at least the ones who do quests at all. I'd love to see every great author on the quest give text only a shot, like Bite did. I can only wonder what the results might be.
>>
No. 14931 ID: 1854db

>>14929
My impression was that people complain about FlynnMerk's quests because they're lame in ways that don't include art or writing.

I almost never hear "boy this guy's art sucks, that quest is shit" or "goddamn what's wrong with this guy, he can't write worth a damn to go with his art". It's almost always other stuff like plot or pacing or lack of choices or too MANY choices. Even then they don't say the quest is SHIT because of it. People complain about text quests and say they are SHIT. They are the only ones that get this kind of treatment. That is what I can't stand.
>>
No. 14932 ID: 326434

DEAR ## MOD ##,

Get the fuck out. No one wants you here.
>>
No. 14933 ID: b6c6fc

>>14932
I support this statement
Mods are douchebags, who ban people for bashing retards that deserve it
>>
No. 14934 ID: 788dee

>>14930
>Blood quest
HA HA NO

>Dragon quest
No.

>Harlem quest
Not really, no.

>Zeon Quest
No.

>Commander quest
No.

>Blood Quest
No.

>Ant Quest
No.

Also:
>The bar of entry and continuance for text quests is lower, while the skill necessary to pull them off is higher.
No. The bar is lower, but the skill required for success is not any greater. Or are you saying that image quests are easymode because writing requires more skill than drawing AND writing? Fuck you.
>The bar of entry and continuance for image quests is higher, while the skill necessary to pull them off is lower.
The bar of entry is higher, but the skill required for success is actually higher because you need to be good in three things instead of one: drawing, writing and COMBINING THOSE FOR EFFECT. The bar of entry being higher is a GOOD thing because it stops those who just don't want to make any fucking effort whatsoever from "trying" and flooding the market with their sub-par shit.

>Again, assuming one medium is simply better is a fucking fallacy, like saying live theater is better than radio drama.
This isn't about different mediums, it's about QUESTS and two different ways of making said QUESTS wherein one way is INHERENTLY INFERIOR GIVEN THE MEDIUM.
And radio dramas are generally crud.
>Or live action is better than cartoons.
Irrelevant as long as cartoons are generally considered to be an exclusive children's medium, because children's shows are almost exclusively crud.

>I am not defending shitty text quests. Again. I am not defending shitty text quests.
Yes you are.

>All that needs to happen for a good text quest is for the author to give a shit and be skilled at writing.
AND GUESS WHAT. PEOPLE LIKE THAT EITHER 1) WRITE FICTION WITHOUT LETTING A BUNCH OF RETARDS SUGGEST THE STORY INTO STUPIDITY OR 2) MAKE THE SMALL EXTRA EFFORT OF SCRAWLING OUT AT LEAST SOMEWHAT PASSABLE IMAGES.
>>
No. 14936 ID: c1d28f

>>14933
I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe if we just drew "gtfo technomancer" on some images over and over we could say what we like on a board that is not supposed to have content restrictions.

(oh btw, it's Seal)
>>
No. 14937 ID: 383006

You know, I actually agree with Shot Trip. I think what he meant by the "bar to entry" is that the quality required for the quest to be acceptable is not very high for image quests. The bar for a text quest to be acceptable is basically pretty high. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that shitty art is a reason they stopped reading a quest, for instance.

That being said, a text quest is a lot less effort. A lot. I personally have given a few a shot, but they either quit pretty soon because there is no real investment involved in the same way as doing an image quest, or the writing was mediocre and they were boring, or they were about something that didn't remotely interest me.

There is nothing to grab the audience and immerse them in the setting, and their only real benefit is they can update so much faster. They will always be less popular than image quests, and most of them are bad. Isn't this what you'd expect, though? Low bar to entry means that the writing should have to be pretty good for me to give a damn. A text quest that's boring or flat (so, mediocre writing) is a giant waste of time. A drawn quest with mediocre art and poor writing can still be pretty entertaining though. Hell, a drawn quest with bad art and bad writing can still be pretty fun.

Anyway, I think a few people are kind of mischaracterizing Shot's arguments because they can't fathom agreeing with him, even though what he's saying is pretty reasonable this time.
>>
No. 14938 ID: 326434

Oh, I knew it was Seal. It was kind of a sixth sense thing.

Get out, Seal. Fuck you.
>>
No. 14939 ID: 70d9eb

Seal is the best moderator and all of his decisions are impeccable.
You cannot pec his decisions.
>>
No. 14941 ID: 788dee

>>14937
Let's put it this way: I own a factory that makes sandpaper dildos and fake plastic marbles. I look at the résumés. Image Quests are the guys who have a degree in sandpaper dildo molding and fake plastic marble blowing. I have no guarantee they'll be excellent or even mediocre. They could be horrible chucklefucks as far as I know. But it's a pretty safe bet to hire them.
Text quests are the immigrant who can only speak the language passably, has a criminal record and doesn't look respectable. Now, I could hire him and try to forge him into a good person. He could surprise me and be the hardest working motherfucker in the factory and bust his ethnic ass off learning everything there is to learn about the business. But it's a pretty safe bet he'll just steal all the paperclips and show up late every day.

See, the quality required for an image quest to be acceptable is not very high because it kind of meets the minimum standards because of the bar of entry is set higher than below sea level, whereas text quests really have no bar of entry. Many text quest posts do not even exceed the word count or regular posts, and we all know what the threshold for people posting all kinds of crud on the internet is. Protip: It's fucking zero.

>A text quest that's boring or flat (so, mediocre writing) is a giant waste of time. A drawn quest with mediocre art and poor writing can still be pretty entertaining though. Hell, a drawn quest with bad art and bad writing can still be pretty fun.
Exactly. And that guy (him) is saying - or at least indirectly implying - text quests are equal to image quests by default and that the flak text quests get is unjustified. Protip: It's justified as all balls. Because they actually are that bad.

And really, there aren't that many (image) quest authors that are generally considered "good" (as in above average and beyond) and only a handful of "great" authors at best.
>>
No. 14943 ID: e41ad5

>A cadre of simple denials without reasoning or explanation.
Two letters does not an argument make. Six letters is hardly better. Let's move on to where you're actually saying shit.



>The bar of entry and continuance for text quests is lower, while the skill necessary to pull them off is higher.
>No. The bar is lower, but the skill required for success is not any greater. Or are you saying that image quests are easymode because writing requires more skill than drawing AND writing? Fuck you.

So. An Image quest can succeed even if the art is terrible. You, and a few others, have said this yourself. I can, in less than a minute, put together a stick figure in a cube-like environment with a few random objects to interact with, and a simple
>You are Hurrr. You are in the land of Durr. WHat do?
And it would apparently pass muster with you.

Meanwhile, I could ALSO write a lengthy, detailed paragraph of prose describing a simple man named Hurrr, who lives in a ramshackle house in the land of Durr, and wishes to be an Elite of the Order of HurDur.
Yet this would not pass muster with you, and would take a great deal more thought and time, possibly even effort!

>The bar of entry and continuance for image quests is higher, while the skill necessary to pull them off is lower.
>The bar of entry is higher, but the skill required for success is actually higher because you need to be good in three things instead of one: drawing, writing and COMBINING THOSE FOR EFFECT. The bar of entry being higher is a GOOD thing because it stops those who just don't want to make any fucking effort whatsoever from "trying" and flooding the market with their sub-par shit.

And yet you've said that shitty art is 'fine', a few times. Or at least people with your argument have.

Thus I maintain my position: It's easier to make and maintain a text quest, but it's harder to make a successful one that lasts and is enjoyed by a large part of /quest/. However, it is harder to start and maintain an image quest, yet it the bar for quality of writing is much lower... I believe one person said that "Even if the writing is bad, at least the pictures are entertaining".


>I am not defending shitty text quests. Again. I am not defending shitty text quests.
>Yes you are.

Where? I hate them as much as you. I happen to write one because it helps pass the time. I know most everyone hides it - I am aware of the fact. I hide half of the quests on the front page just like you do.

I'm just saying what is evident to me. I'm not defending lackluster performance in the slightest.
>>
No. 14944 ID: e3f578

>>14941
I don't really give a fuck about text quest arguments anymore, but wow was that a shitty metaphor.
You could be a text quest author!
>>
No. 14945 ID: 28e94e

>>14941
Confirmed for trolling.
>>
No. 14947 ID: bf1e7e

None of you faggots are qualified to determine who is or is not deserving of anything. Especially those of you that are such pussies that you have to hide behind proxies to whine about me.

Crying that I'm not going to let you troll the shit out of /draw/ for a month because THEIR FETISH IS SO MUCH GROSSER THAN MY FETISH just makes you look like the sort of retarded twat that the site would be better off without. Don't like it? Don't go telling people to leave the site during the month of may. If people weren't being such gargantuan whining faggots about things in the first place it wouldn't have come to this.

Here is how this dialogue basically looks from here:

MODS DO SOMETHING
'Okay I will enforce the rules'
NO DON'T DO THAT THAT HAS NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES ON MY BEING A GIANT SHITHEAD
'Maybe you should try not being a shithead for a month'
MODS SUCK

tl;dr -- deal w/ it.
>>
No. 14948 ID: 788dee

>>14943
>Two letters does not an argument make. Six letters is hardly better. Let's move on to where you're actually saying shit.
How about stale text with constant GAME MECHANICS IN YOUR FACE while also commenting on suggestions, eliminating any potential flow before it even has a chance to start?

>So. An Image quest can succeed even if the art is terrible.
No. "Success" isn't just meeting the minimum requirements.

> I can, in less than a minute, put together a stick figure in a cube-like environment with a few random objects to interact with, and a simple You are Hurrr. You are in the land of Durr. WHat do?
And that would be shit. Crud. Sub-par. Abominable. Not even mediocre.

>Meanwhile, I could ALSO write a lengthy, detailed paragraph of prose describing a simple man named Hurrr, who lives in a ramshackle house in the land of Durr, and wishes to be an Elite of the Order of HurDur. Yet this would not pass muster with you, and would take a great deal more thought and time, possibly even effort!
Yeah, but your "lengthy, detailed paragraph of prose" is probably stale as old balls. Great deal more TIME would go into it, PERHAPS, but there are many things you can do the dumb way when there are billions of better ways to do it.
NOT TO MENTION THAT IF IT REALLY TAKES THAT MUCH TIME AND EFFORT TO WRITE A PARAGRAPH, YOU'RE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG BUSINESS.

>And yet you've said that shitty art is 'fine', a few times. Or at least people with your argument have.
Shitty art is shitty, but it's "fine" IN COMPARISON TO TEXT QUESTS.

>Thus I maintain my position: It's easier to make and maintain a text quest, but it's harder to make a successful one that lasts and is enjoyed by a large part of /quest/. However, it is harder to start and maintain an image quest, yet it the bar for quality of writing is much lower... I believe one person said that "Even if the writing is bad, at least the pictures are entertaining".
You don't get it, do you. Note how that was not a question but a statement. Because you do not get it.
You don't need to write like a genius to make a good quest, but if you write like an armless retard with Parkinson's and a cane up your ass, IT WILL STAND OUT IN A BAD WAY.

>Where? I hate them as much as you.
By constantly defending them? Suddenly I believe you fully.

Note how I did not actually mean what I said in that previous sentence. Because it was a lie.

>>14944
Unlike a text quest author, I'd at least doodle some hurrdurr picture to go with it if I was making a quest. You just don't like it because you are hutt in the burt because I don't like your dear text quests.
>>
No. 14949 ID: 788dee

>>14945
Confirmed for butthurt textquest author.

Who also has no skill in writing or anything else quest-related.
>>
No. 14950 ID: 28e94e

>>14948
You might as well just post "HERESY" and be done with it.

>>14949
lol no
>>
No. 14951 ID: e3f578

>>14948
Man, only text quest I read is Bite's
It's just really was a shitty fucking metaphor. I figure I'd point that out.
Okay, no I was wrong, you could be a political cartoonist
>>
No. 14952 ID: cccb33

>>14947
Two things:

A) their fetish is not why they are being lauded, they're being lauded because they are using the site for nothing other than posting their fetish art while insulting the rest of the site

And

B) this site is not an art gallery, technomancer SHOULD leave and take his "art" to sheezyart or something.

It's not that their art is disgusting, it is, but they are being tremendous faggots about it and you are being a faggot over people harassing them in response to things they gave done.

If they don't want backlash for the things they post they should go somewhere else, this site is not a murry purry hugbox.
>>
No. 14953 ID: cccb33

>>14947
Two things:

A) their fetish is not why they are being lauded, they're being lauded because they are using the site for nothing other than posting their fetish art while insulting the rest of the site

And

B) this site is not an art gallery, technomancer SHOULD leave and take his "art" to sheezyart or something.

It's not that their art is disgusting, it is, but they are being tremendous faggots about it and you are being a faggot over people harassing them in response to things they gave done.

If they don't want backlash for the things they post they should go somewhere else, this site is not a murry purry hugbox.
>>
No. 14954 ID: e41ad5

>>14951
>Okay, no I was wrong, you could be a political cartoonist

Now, now, we're trying to be adults here!

>>14948
Might want to watch where you're going while you're backpedaling like that.

Your entire position is thus:

>It is harder to draw than it is to write.

>Therefore, those who draw in addition to writing are better than those who simply write.

>In fact, I daresay it matters now who does the work, nay, it is in fact the very act of not including art that ruins one's potential.

> Theretofore: Art quests are better than text quests, all the time, no matter what, and anyone who argues against me argues for shitty shit that is shit.

>In addition, I am the only one who matters when it comes to judging the quality of anything. Everyone else is a frustrated author of the aforementioned shit, and is therefore shit as well.

>In addendum, capitalization makes me appear to be a mature, intellectual individual, and makes my points even more salient. Huzzah.
>>
No. 14955 ID: bf1e7e

>>14953

>but they are being tremendous faggots about it

How? THey're staying in their own threads and don't really like quests much. OH NO SUCH GIANT FAGGOTS. Surely they're worse than people actively going into their threads to try to troll them off the board!

Overlord was being a faggot for a while and oh shit he got banned for it. What the fuck sort of madness is this? It looks to me like enforcing the rules! Holy shit!

So, how, specifically, are they being faggots again? I won't wait up for an answer; partially because I have to leave for work but mostly because I know that you won't actually provide a legitimate one.

See, here's the thing. /tgchan/ was founded because 4chan basically got to the point where 'If we don't like this it is okay to troll it off the board' was the norm. That shit is not acceptable and will never be acceptable. They aren't interfering with your precious quests, they're making their own drawfag threads on the board that is for drawing (No, not quest-related drawing. No, not drawing by people who also run quests. Just drawing) and enjoying themselves where they are not bothering anyone else except for people who choose to seek sources of irritation, and thus deserve no protection from them.

The villains here are the fags who think 'if I don't like something it's okay to troll it until it goes away.' They are the faggots, they are the scum, and they are the people without whom the site would be a better place -- because getting away from people like that is the reason the site fucking exists in the first place.
>>
No. 14956 ID: b6c6fc

>>14952
I endorse this statement
>>
No. 14957 ID: 6d4ea4

I liked Red Sky.
>>
No. 14958 ID: e3f578

Maybe the lesson here is that everyone is a faggot.
>>
No. 14959 ID: 788dee

>>14954
You are full of shit. Either you cannot into reading comprehension or you're just plain making shit up.

My position, in all its simplicity, is thus: text quests constantly and consistently prove themselves to be sub-par crud, in contrast to the varying quality of image quests which contain examples of utter crud, great works and everything in between.

How good text quests "could" be means fuck-all when they do not prove themselves to be anything but crud.
>>
No. 14960 ID: e41ad5

>>14959
>How good text quests "could" be means fuck-all when they do not prove themselves to be anything but crud.

So Furries 4 Jesus is shit, gotcha.
>>
No. 14961 ID: 788dee

>>14960
Because I have not even once excepted it, am I right.

See, the joke here is that I have actually excepted it on several occasions and you're still making shit up.
>>
No. 14966 ID: e41ad5

>>14961
So it's not a text quest?

Because it is. And saying all of x is shit except y doesn't prove that all of x is shit. It just proves that all of x is shit except y.

And when your point is that x has never been good, it looks a little silly when you except the one thing that makes your argument fall apart like a damn house of cards, unless you aren't after actual discussion but simply being right.
>>
No. 14967 ID: 788dee

>>14966
It's a text quest made by an author who has made image quests before making said text quest. Also it's the only text quest I know which isn't crud. One. Out of many. Whereas there are several good and better image quests among many.
I'm not going to fucking repeat this over and over again in every fucking sentence in every fucking post. Do you really forget it every fucking time unless I mention it separately each time I refer to text quests collectively?
>>
No. 14968 ID: e3f578

Maybe what he's saying isn't that, but since there is only one actually decent text quest out of many, is that he may as well fuck technicalities and specific examples and just say text quests suck and will always suck until another guy like BiteQuest comes around and makes a good one, which most likely won't happen ever.

From that standpoint, he's right. No text quest has shown actual fucking potential. Hell, Sammy ain't a pure text quest, Bite drops an occasional image here and there. By that logic, Blood Quest by Rosque on this board wasn't one either. I had no idea it was completed here or that it existed on /tg/ in another form, but whatever. If people would argue either of those two as decent text quests (granted he called the two blood quests as shit anyway so he'd say fuck no that sucks objectively too), he could deny that and just bring up that they're this weird ass mix.

Well, I'm brought up that point. Nonetheless, text quests haven't shown much potential at all on this board, being a devil's advocate here.

Great, NOW I care. Fuck you two guys. This argument is dumb. the people arguing this argument are dumb. And now I'm dumb for arguing too.
>Well you didn't need any help with that anyway
Aww that's just great.
>>
No. 14969 ID: 28e94e

I'm going to second Red Sky as another example of a well-done text quest.

BTW, you're not allowed to just make exceptions for everything that doesn't fit your views like that. That's cherrypicking.
>>
No. 14970 ID: 788dee

>>14969
I do not even know what Red Sky is.

And I'm not cherrypicking. Exceptions have a habit of deviating critically from the norm. To wit, BEING THE EXCEPTIONS. It's still ONE (1) out of many against SEVERAL of varying degrees of good out of many.
>>
No. 14971 ID: 2563d4

>>14937
>I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that shitty art is a reason they stopped reading a quest, for instance.
Unfortunately this is why I don't read MiB's quests.

Yes it is a shallow as fuck reason and I am a bad person but the scrawly style is really offputting for some reason.

>>14952
>their fetish is not why they are being lauded, they're being lauded because they are using the site for nothing other than posting their fetish art while insulting the rest of the site
to laud, v.: to praise, to extol

Think you reached beyond the limits of your vocuabulary there, sport.

>>14959
>Either you cannot into reading comprehension
1) It's Shot
2) He's busy valiently defending text quests
I hope you realise you're not getting a discussion here. You're getting a frothing, flailing, fanboy defence. All hands to battle stations.
>>
No. 14973 ID: 788dee

>>14971
I consider this a live-fire drill. That's how real people do things.

As opposed to invertebrate bitch princesses in pink frilly dresses.
>>
No. 14974 ID: e41ad5

>>14970
Red Sky is a text quest done by Cirr. (I think? The guy what with the drones and whatnot. I'm pretty sure it's Cirr.) He used an image to mark updates. (Literally, a red and black portrait of the main character with UPDATE under it)

I suppose...

Text quests should be done by choice. Not because you can't art. Every text quest done by a (usually) picture artist has turned out well.

Really, it's the psychology of the author, not the fact that pictures happen to be absent. If you write a text quest because you can't draw, rather than writing a text quest because you think the story is more suited for text, then... Yeah, of course you'll get shit. It's like trying to pass off a comic book transcript as a novel.

But if the author creates it as a text quest because that's how he feels it should be presented, it's another matter.

Unfortunately, there are very few of these around.
>>
No. 14975 ID: e41ad5

>>14974
Addendum: In light of this, "Because I can't art" is a clear warning sign.
>>
No. 14976 ID: 788dee

>>14974
>Unfortunately
No. It's becoming clear there's just something wrong with you. Either you're pretentious as all fuck, or... Hell, I can't think of any other reason to prefer text quests to such a degree.
Text quests have no advantages over image quests and the trend is for anyone even half-competent to go with images. Pictures make things easier to follow (unless done very poorly, but that applies to everything and I should not even have to mention this) and there's nothing to stop a quest author from making an effort with the text portion. Besides, "a picture is worth a thousand words". Image quests are better for the community too. I can't exactly go wonder at the numerous text quest fanarts in the fanart threads.
>>
No. 14977 ID: 5dfd16
File 130445999103.png - (486.84KB , 1162x968 , styles.png )
14977

>>14971
Funny you should mention that, I've said it more than once myself. If you are talking about First Hand I'd even agree with you in that I can't even go back and 'look' at the first chapter of that mess.

The reason the 'style' (if it could be called that) even ended up like that is becasue I've been using a Mac GIMP port for the past year. Unsurprisingly it's almost useless due to lacking pressure sensitivity, so my sketchystyle evolved as a result to attempt quicker line thickening.

I actually aquired photoshop midway though my last chapter, but when I applied some of the more obvious smoothing techniques people complained about lost detail and dynamicism so... meh.

Besides, I tend to write grimy, used, unclean settings. The artstyle occasionally works 'for' me in such a case. I'd like to improve, but I'm also not an art student, this is just something I do in (my ever sparser) spare time.
>>
No. 14978 ID: 28e94e

>>14976
>Either you're pretentious as all fuck, or...
I don't follow.

>Hell, I can't think of any other reason to prefer text quests to such a degree.
Where did he say that he prefers text quests? He just says that he enjoys a well-done text quest.

>Text quests have no advantages over image quests and the trend is for anyone even half-competent to go with images.
>implying that the majority of people can draw worth shit

>there's nothing to stop a quest author from making an effort with the text portion
Just like there's nothing to stop a text quest author from making an effort with the visual portion (hint: see previous point)

>Image quests are better for the community too. I can't exactly go wonder at the numerous text quest fanarts in the fanart threads.
Go into the Golem Quest threads. There's actually quite a bit of fanart for it, the community is just too damn reclusive because of the perceived air of hostility towards them. (Golem Quest is pretty much the only text quest that's active enough to get any fanart these days)

>>14973
>manly posturing
>the internet
lol
>>
No. 14980 ID: 15b51b

It is kinda funny how the most widely praised text quests on the site have art.

But I don't see where this argument is really going. If we come to a unanimous conclusion that text quests are bad (except Sex Mall), it won't suddenly make it okay to troll them (except Sex Mall), and people will still post and update them (except Sex Mall).
>>
No. 14981 ID: 15b51b

>Go into the Golem Quest threads. There's actually quite a bit of fanart for it, the community is just too damn reclusive because of the perceived air of hostility towards them.
Sheesh. That kind of talk goes both ways. Just post it in the fanart thread. That's what it's there for.

We probably won't mind even if it's terrible.
>>
No. 14982 ID: e41ad5

>>14978
>>14981
Well, Bob gives bonuses when it's posted inthread, and it seems kinda redundant. If y'all really want, I can ask people to collect up everything we have and disseminate it into the fanart thread lightly (So we don't flood it)
>>
No. 14984 ID: 383006

>>14980
Goddamn I miss sex mall. It could have been so glorious. That's fuckin' it. When Sammy is over I'm going to do the most godawful yiffyaffy purple prose text quest ever to exist.
>>
No. 14985 ID: e41ad5

>>14984
And then it'll some how turn out thoughtful and philosophical and awesome because god damnit bite almost everything you touch turns to gold.
>>
No. 14986 ID: f5e4b4

>>14981

You're asking for a shitstorm. At this point you should know that if they did that, people would start bitching and whining about "Golem quest flooding the fanart thread." And then they would start bitching and asking to mov the GQ fanarts to their own threads or even different boards.
>>
No. 14987 ID: 2563d4

>>14982
>collect up everything we have
TBH, the Golem Quest wiki page is probably better for that. (Please try to namespace the images if there are going to be bunches---stick "golem_" on the front or something.)
>>
No. 14989 ID: 15b51b

>>14986
So just post new ones there, not the whole entire backlog. The duplicate file thingy wouldn't let you repost the old ones anyway.

Christ. Do I have to think of everything?

>>14985
>And then it'll some how turn out thoughtful and philosophical ...
WE'LL JUST SEE ABOUT THAT
>>
No. 14990 ID: 2cba8d

>>14955
Until recently there were rules that kept people from being able to post guro without having it deleted.

Then the rules were removed. People complain about the content and act like asshats about it. You say "fuck you I'm enforcing the nonexistent rules." Ok, you're doing your job by the book, can't argue that.

Could it be that people actually liked having content restrictions on the site? Which set of asshats is tgchan trying to cater to? Aside from the mods, of course, who don't have to do anything in the current situation but bitch at people and hand out bans.
>>
No. 14991 ID: 383006

>>14990

The content restrictions were stupid and shitty. What the hell is the big fucking deal about those guys and their thread on draw anyway? There is some gross fetish crap, but honestly there isn't that much of it, even in Technomancer's thread.

I don't like their shitty attitude, but I don't see why that's bannable. If they were trolling or posting that shit somewhere else on the board, OK, you'd have a point. But they aren't.
>>
No. 14992 ID: 6b2b68
File 130446899989.jpg - (47.47KB , 319x243 , umad.jpg )
14992

>>14955
They're claiming moral superiority and acting holier than thou when they are pretty much sicker than any "furry" here. That's specifically how they are being tremendous faggots, in a nutshell.

Also they claim to be staying here only because they have "no other place to go" when they could easily go to some art site instead of posting their stuff here, but we can't even tell them that now because apparently that is "trolling."

Also, you so mad.

you so banned
>>
No. 14993 ID: e41ad5

>>14992
But here's the thing, man.

It is all in their own fucking thread.

Give me one good reason you can't click the goddamn littl [-] button that is there even if you don't have an addon. Go ahead. It's your own damn fault for looking, when it says, in biiiiig fucking letters, HEY THIS IS MY DRAW THREAD and you know THIS GUY IS A HUGE PERVERT BLUH BLUH.

I don't walk into the goddamn Dong Museum and rail at the people there for flagrant display of male genetalia!
>>
No. 14994 ID: e3f578

The point of /draw/ is to post drawings on it right?
I'm really not seeing the offense here.
>>
No. 14995 ID: 6b2b68

>>14993
You didn't read the post you linked to, obviously.
>>
No. 14996 ID: bf1e7e

>>14990

those rules are still there. There isn't really anything in that thread that's more 'guro' than shit that gets a free pass in the fanart thread. At least, not that i've seen. And since I check reports that obviously means there's nothing really offensive there because nobody has reported it.

>Which set of asshats is tgchan trying to cater to?

Certainly not the pussies who can't even air their grievances without hiding behind a proxy.

>They're claiming moral superiority and acting holier than thou when they are pretty much sicker than any "furry" here. That's specifically how they are being tremendous faggots, in a nutshell.

Well, they're not going into other people's threads and trying to troll them off the site, so they basically DO have moral superiority in this case.

>Also they claim to be staying here only because they have "no other place to go" when they could easily go to some art site instead of posting their stuff here,

Can't really do a drawthread well without an imageboard. And given that people can and do talk to them in the threads and make requests, that's exactly what they're doing.

>but we can't even tell them that now because apparently that is "trolling."

When the 40kfags said '/tg/ was started because of the 40kspam on /b/ because it didn't have anywhere else to go, so it's okay for us to sage and troll everything else off of /tg/' they were trolling. And that is exactly what you are doing now.

And yes, it was me. Proceed to bitch in IRC if you want to, or just proxy up like the fag you are. Trolling is, after all, against the rules that still exist.
>>
No. 14998 ID: f123de

>>14996
Could be that no one reported it because it's not against the current rules of the site? It's a point you've certainly made abundantly clear in the most even-handed manner possible.


Hmm. http://quest.lv/kusaba/news.php?p=rules

How Moderation Works
The mods will do what they think is best. Here's some guidelines on what they're supposed to do:

(trimmed for brevity)
Deal with arguments and derailing of threads.
Deal with people trolling or antagonizing other users.
Coordinate with each other, and get opinions from the team. (you're waving around your big red ## Mod ## tag. So you've coordinated with the team and they approve of this?)

Overall
Don't be an asshole.
Don't post things to stir up drama.

Seems like by the rules everyone in this thread should be banned including me.
>>
No. 15001 ID: f5e4b4

>>14998

This is the big dumb argument thread, it was made for people to be retarded and have dumb arguments. If you or anyone brought all this up in some other thread or board, it would be stirring up drama and derailing, which would be bannable. It's easy.

Also people know perfectly what's guro and what's bannable, and they report them when they see it. They haven't reported the threads in /draw/ because they aren't worse than most stuff that got posted there and in /questdis/ before those guys came in.

So people just make vague accusations and try to troll them off just because they don't like them, even if they keep themselves to their own threads and don't bother the rest of the site.

Just like when the fags in 4chan used to try to troll quest threads off their board. Just because they didn't like them.
>>
No. 15002 ID: 8e18cd

>>15001

I reported a loli guro request that was thankfully deleted.

And reported one of Technomancer's pictures (Roasted Tau girl), that wasn't deleted.

So don't say no-one reports that shit.
>>
No. 15003 ID: 55c4cf

Grievance Procedures:

1. Politely express to the offending party that they are causing a grievance.

2. If it continues, inform a moderator of the grievance.

3. If the moderator does not solve it to adequate standards, express it to another moderator or an administrator.

4a. If the administration agrees with your grievance as acceptable, allow the administrative stave to handle the situation if/when it occurs in the future. Do not address the offending party yourself. If it is bothering you directly, inform the staff for resolution.
4b. If the administrative staff believes your grievance to be insubstantial, then accept it as a personal grievance and do not interact with the offending party in the future. If the grievance is taken into the hands of the offended party, then action will be taken against that person instead.

Cases that have been solved in the past will be used to apply in the future as well.

Cases involving content regulation on /draw/, Technomancer and other drawfags on draw, and Bitequest's Torture Porn like art for example are all resolved.

Attending the board for whatever length of time does not apply honorary policing status. Further complaints and bitching about Resolved Moderation will be acted upon appropriately in the future.

If you have a problem, follow the grievance procedure. If you do not follow the procedure, then it is your own fault that appropriate action is either not taken against the offending party, or is instead taken upon you.

Thank you very much.
>>
No. 15005 ID: bf1e7e

>>15002

So what you're saying is that the current system is working fine and there's nothing to whine about?

That's just absolutely super.
>>
No. 15006 ID: 8e18cd

>>15005

If it was working super you wouldn't ban someone from this thread. Just saying.
>>
No. 15007 ID: 2563d4

>>14998
>Could be that no one reported it because it's not against the current rules of the site?
Pretty much! I'm not sure how Seal can repeatedly say "it's not against the rules"---sticky and all---and yet argue that there can't be a problem because "nobody reports it". It sets up an expectation that reporting would do nothing but possibly get you zapped for abusing the report system.

(Also, if it's not against the rules, but you want it to be, reporting it superfluously is still not the right approach. Effort'd be better spent somewhere like here arguing that /draw/'s rules should be changed---which is sort-of what's happening, maybe.)

>>15003
If this is policy or something it should probably be on or near the rules page rather than buried in a very long thread full of stupid frothing.
>>
No. 15014 ID: 55c4cf

>>15007

Okay.
>>
No. 15015 ID: 6b2b68

>Certainly not the pussies who can't even air their grievances without hiding behind a proxy.

Maybe if you didn't try to ban people who argue with you things would be different. It'd be great to post on a website where people don't feel the NEED to do that, wouldn't it?

Though I'm not and haven't been posting under a proxy and >>14992 look what happened, luckily though abuse of mod powers is grounds for an unban.

>Well, they're not going into other people's threads and trying to troll them off the site, so they basically DO have moral superiority in this case.
No, they really don't. They're doing this the scientology way. They're loudly making claims and being giant hypocrites in the most annoying manner possible, being forced to leave them alone in their thread while they insult the entire rest of the site and bitch about what terrible furries post here while posting alien women with robot asses that shit scarabs is ridiculous, especially when they invite so many arguments with the things they say.

>Can't really do a drawthread well without an imageboard. And given that people can and do talk to them in the threads and make requests, that's exactly what they're doing.
Are you unfamiliar with how requests work on online gallery sites?

>When the 40kfags said '/tg/ was started because of the 40kspam on /b/ because it didn't have anywhere else to go, so it's okay for us to sage and troll everything else off of /tg/' they were trolling. And that is exactly what you are doing now.
Incorrect. What happened just before you enforced a new rule on a whim and deleted all related posts on a supposedly content-free board was a discussion of how their works is better suited for another site, more akin to someone saying that discussion of Mass Effect should be in /v/ rather than /tg/.

>And yes, it was me. Proceed to bitch in IRC if you want to, or just proxy up like the fag you are. Trolling is, after all, against the rules that still exist.
I'm not going to use a proxy Seal, I don't know why you're accusing everyone of using proxies when they are not.
>>
No. 15016 ID: a41aaf

>>15015
>They're loudly making claims and being giant hypocrites in the most annoying manner possible
HIDE THE THREAD WITH THE HANDY [_] BUTTON
advicebob.tif
NEVER BE AWARE OF THEIR VERY EXISTENCE


You don't like their crazy nasty fetish, they don't like your crazy nasty fetish, can't we all learn to shut the hell up and not act like enormous faghats whenever it's mentioned that somebody doesn't like something you like?
>>
No. 15017 ID: 788dee

I think I want IDs in /draw/ now. What it reveals could potentially be hilarious.
>>
No. 15018 ID: 788dee

Oh, and allowing people to post whatever just because it isn't technically and/or specifically against the rules does affect the reputation of the site negatively and sets a precedent for using the site as a personal file host and a refuge for any stupid shit that doesn't roll anywhere else.

Besides, there really is a bit too much furry in here.
>>
No. 15019 ID: e41ad5

>being forced to leave them alone in their thread while they insult the entire rest of the site and bitch about what terrible furries post here while posting alien women with robot asses that shit scarabs is ridiculous, especially when they invite so many arguments with the things they say.

I still don't see how this can't be solved without the hide button.

Are you so incredibly incensed by what less than an eighth of the site has to say in their own SINGLE thread that you absolutely, positively cannot leave it be? Is it so bad that you cannot sleep at night without trying to troll them offboard? Is it THAT BAD?

No. It isn't. It's the same shit we've all seen a thousand times or more. So hide it and move on.
>>
No. 15020 ID: 2563d4

>>15017
I want IDs in draw just so when people say "I drew this" without namefagging we might have some clue who they are, especially in oC.
>>
No. 15021 ID: 6b2b68

>>15018
This is a concern.
>>
No. 15022 ID: bf1e7e

>>15015

I didn't ban you for arguing with me you shitstain. I banned you for resorting to 'you so mad' just like I banned The God Emperor of Mankind for trying to bring up that retarded summerfag shit.

>luckily though abuse of mod powers is grounds for an unban.

Nothing about that was abuse of mod powers, you just threw a shitfit because I didn't unban you when you demanded it. The 'abuse' of my mod powers was not immediately banning you when you were being a massive shithead on /draw/ in the first place. Your 'you so mad' fallback pissed away that leniency and I gave you the punishment you already deserved.

>No, they really don't. They're doing this the scientology way.

And you're doing this the /tg/ 40k neckbeard way. If that's what you want to do, go the fuck back to /tg/ and don't update hatch there.

>Are you unfamiliar with how requests work on online gallery sites?

Differently than they do in drawthreads, yes.

>Incorrect. What happened just before you enforced a new rule on a whim

Oh, really?

>The mods will do what they think is best. >Here's some guidelines on what they're supposed to do:

>Deal with arguments and derailing of threads.
Deal with anything that could get us in legal trouble.
Deal with people trolling or antagonizing other users.
Research reported posts, and determine an appropriate response.
Ban anyone who continually is a problem.

Why look at that! Right on the rules page are three reasons for exactly what I did.

>and deleted all related posts on a supposedly content-free board was a discussion of how their works is better suited for another site, more akin to someone saying that discussion of Mass Effect should be in /v/ rather than /tg/.

You are a fucking liar.

>you should move your little circlejerking guro porn thread to another site
>Seriously, you and the others should leave. You and Overlord and God-Emperor and whatnot. You have no place here and most of the site hates you.

This sure doesn't look like civil non-trolling discussion here.

>I don't know why you're accusing everyone of using proxies when they are not.

You aren't =/= nobody is. Though if it isn't somebody using a proxy it's probably just you hopping on with your iphone to agree with yourself. Which you have done before.

HERE IS AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT, EVEN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T SCUM:

See the ## MOD ## tag here? This is the internet equivalent of a daddy voice. Usually, if I am calling you a fag, I am just another fag on the internet calling you a fag. If I make a note of being a mod and call you a fag, I am telling you that you are being a fag from the perspective of a person whose task is to punish you for being a fag.

>What it reveals could potentially be hilarious.

Basically what it reveals is that Beakie and Numbers claim to speak for the entire site when they try to troll the /tg/ drawfags off the board. Nevermind that there are people whose oldest posts are in those threads and have moved on to post in every board on the site except for TEMP.
>>
No. 15023 ID: 788dee

>>15022
>>Basically what it reveals is that Beakie and Numbers claim to speak for the entire site when they try to troll the /tg/ drawfags off the board. Nevermind that there are people whose oldest posts are in those threads and have moved on to post in every board on the site except for TEMP.
Let's see it then. I'm curious.
>>
No. 15024 ID: bf1e7e

>>15023

See what? Me tracking down all of the people who came to the site (or at least started posting in) the /tg/ drawfag threads and then have other posts in General, /tg/, and /quest/? Why should I bother? There are also plenty of other people from the site proper who participate in those threads anyway, and you can see that just by scrolling by because some of them namefag.

The fact is, even if they ONLY posted in those threads, they would still be more valuable community members than, say, SDF. SDF runs his quests, doesn't read other quests (by his own word), and trolls the IRC channels. These guys draw in their drawthreads, don't read quests (except when they do, IE: Technomancer read Doll), and don't troll the IRC channels.
>>
No. 15025 ID: 788dee

>>15024
>See what?
IDs in /draw/.
>>
No. 15026 ID: 6b2b68

>>15022

I didn't "resort" to "you mad," I had the entire post before it and put that in to mimic how you in particular argue all the time everywhere else. If anything it was a joke, if one that apparently didn't work even when saying "I'm pretty sure the first person to say 'you mad' wins every argument forever" in the call last night.

You can disagree with me on the rest though.
>>
No. 15027 ID: bf1e7e

>>15026

>I had the entire post before it and put that in to mimic how you in particular argue all the time everywhere else.

Feel free to link a post where I turn to 'you mad.' Or when I've posted the macro. Or when I've antagonized a mod with their mod hat on and I was already insisting on being a problem.

>if one that apparently didn't work even when saying "I'm pretty sure the first person to say 'you mad' wins every argument forever" in the call last night.

After Demanding that I unban you and calling me a fag for not doing it? Nah, that was just passive-agressive whining.

For the record, the decision was that two-weeks was too long of a duration for what you did here and that one day for being a faghat and an extended ban from /draw/ was enough, which I can agree with because two weeks was way too long to begin with, it was just half the duration of the proposed /draw/ ban and I put it in on a whim. I probably would have changed the duration that night myself if not for your skype shenanigans =V
>>
No. 15028 ID: bf1e7e

Shit forgot to reply to the post I intended to.

>>15025

The crazy thing is that I totally remember them being there. I don't know if I'm just remembering wrong or if they got removed at some point.
>>
No. 15029 ID: 788dee

>>15028
Well put them (back) in.
>>
No. 15030 ID: bf1e7e

>>15029

I can't do that, hal.
>>
No. 15031 ID: 788dee

>>15030
Then find the guy who can.
>>
No. 15032 ID: 6b2b68

>>15027
You really can't say that you never say "you mad" or an equivalent thing even when and especially when they aren't even arguing with you.

>After Demanding that I unban you and calling me a fag for not doing it?
You were a fag for banning me in the first place and then yes, a fag for not unbanning me then, or at the very least for setting the duration so long to begin with.

But hey, I think we're done here. I'm fine with the way things currently are.
>>
No. 15033 ID: 2563d4

>>15024
>[SDF] trolls the IRC channels.
SDF's brand of aggressive humour is pretty much the same as LawyerDog's. Is he trolling too?
>>
No. 15034 ID: 6d4ea4

>>15033
PANCAKES
>>
No. 15035 ID: 8c0848

NINE
>>
No. 15036 ID: abcbff

NO
>>
No. 15037 ID: 544dd4

>>15033
Yes, yes he is.
>>
No. 15039 ID: f7ae22

>>15033
People say that I do nothing but troll and have never been nice in my life, and it's why I am no longer in #tozol, so yes.
>>
No. 15040 ID: 4531bc

THEY SEE ME DRAWAN
SOME SENATORS
I KNOW THAT THEY ARE THINKIN I AM A BAD TROLL

I WANNA TROLL WITH
THE GANGSTAS
BUT THEY THINK I AM A BAD TROLL

TROLLS HATAN
THEY THINK I AM A BAD TROLL

It is a sad day when differences of opinion regarding a quandary as petty as the one in question elicit a form of vehement, non-humorous response. It is my request that the facetious nature of this debate be exposited explicitly. This is in the interest of those who fail to observe such tendencies and instead take the violent verbal bouts at their face value.
Many thanks.
>>
No. 15041 ID: 15b51b

>>15039
Man, that ain't what I said.
>>
No. 15044 ID: 8e18cd

I think, Seal, you're taking this argument way too personally. Especially using off-site stuff as basis for extending the duration of a ban.

If you are to punish for something on-site, don't use stuff from other sources as your leverage.

Besides, you complaining about someone posting "You mad" in a discussion is hypocritical, given that's your favourite counter-argument. If you can't be civil or present your argument in a normal fashion, often resorting to name calling and pulling out things that aren't site-related, maybe you're not quite qualified for "internet daddy voice".
>>
No. 15045 ID: 1854db

>>15027
>mod hat

Why is this even a thing?
>>
No. 15048 ID: 27cb25

Well, got an hour to kill and nothing useful here to spend it on, so I might as well throw my two pennies in the overflowing well that is the perpetual shitstorm that is this thread.

Just goes to show that it doesn't matter if it's anonymous or not, we will always need or end up forming a thread to bitch. But I digress.

Text quests. Generally speaking I used to give every quest a chance before I stopped really following any quests at all due to a clusterfuck of a schedule these days with the spectre of graduation looming. Sometimes this was worth it. A lot of the time, less so. If I was to use the ur-example here, Golem Quest, well, it really doesn't look good ORbad to me. There are certainly worse quests that I have followed mostly out of the sunk cost fallacy or so-bad-it's-good factors. No, the main issue is it's just not the kind of thing I think I'd be that interested in. "Awesome people doing more and more awesome things" begins to grate on me pretty quickly. Past a certain point you might as well just start going "AH BUT YOU SEE I AM POWER LEVEL TEN BILLION" and it all blurs into meaninglessness and "awesome stuff" becomes mundane and commonplace, which means things that are meant to be awesome really aren't.

Of course I've only read snippets of the quest and quest discussion to arrive at that conclusion, so I may be wrong. I sure as fuck do not have the time to sit down and read War and Peace, let alone Golem Quest, so if my opinion is misinformed please don't hesitate to scream at me for ruining everything forever.

Dragging up old debates that should have stayed dead aside, Seal, you're really kind of a hypocrite at times. You do have a tendency to stir things up and then start banning people over them or just banning people for doing something you don't like while criticising people who would probably do the same if they were in your position. Now, this is all fine and well, because this is a private site, but I don't remember you being the head of the site last time I checked. I mean, if you are, fair enough, but surely the whole reason there are multiple mods is to split the workload and also ensure one person in the mod team doesn't dominate everything? I can't really argue against what you're doing because, again, private site and if the end user doesn't like it they can fuck off, but I am kind of feeling like it's getting to a point where I should probably do just that, because moderation based on the rules feels arbitrary and motivated more by personal vendettas than actual breaches of rules.

And yeah, I was kind of trying to prove a point in /draw/ by making a post with a fake ban message, but the point I was trying to make there is that anyone can fake a ban message with a bold tag and a color tag. Not the most appropriate way to alert the staff of the site, I know, but that's just the kind of asshole I am.

Okay, wall of text over. How the fuck Red Sky was cited as an example of a good text quest when it was just be throwing words at the site in the hopes they'd stick, I have no fucking idea, but there we go!

Oh, and I'm signing my name here because I'm on a different network and I don't want to be accused of proxying. In the name field and the message body. Just to be absolutely clear, here. I'll probably still get banned for proxying but oh well! If I get banned that pretty much resolves the whole fuck-off-the-site-or-not quandary, doesn't it.

- Cirr
>>
No. 15050 ID: 2563d4

>IDs in /draw/
Oh hey, they're enabled. Cheers.

>>15041
No, it's what Slinkoboy said.
>>
No. 15051 ID: f7ae22

>>15041
It was because of #tozol regulars in general saying things like that and the topic of conversation sometimes being about how I was a troll and didn't belong in #tozol, not specifically you (although you have said that yourself too.) Being in a channel where most of the regulars/mods didn't want me there seemed silly!
>>
No. 15052 ID: 2563d4

Oh hey I know what's fun:
http://pastey.net/149680-2omz
Having the actual log here so that a) all the drama is focused in this stupid drama thread b) it's at least drama based on things people actually said rather than what they remember each-other saying.

All I've cut is join/leave spam from people not in the conversation, and the conversation stopped (as in the channel went dead for half an hour and resumed with different people on a different topic) where the paste does.
>>
No. 15053 ID: 383006

>i like this place and bitequest too

:B

I draw those things mostly because I am a self-hating alcoholic.

I don't even know why everyone calls LawyerDog a troll. 9/10 times he talking about video games or expressing his opinion about whatever the topic of the channel is. He's not even abrasive and he doesn't throw around insults like SDF. It's like he got a reputation from somewhere that's not even actually true, and people just keep repeating it because it's a known 'fact.'
>>
No. 15054 ID: 2563d4

>>15053
>I draw those things mostly because I am a self-hating alcoholic.
I'll drink to that!
>>
No. 15055 ID: 258864

>LawyerDog is autistic
Well this explains everything
>>
No. 15057 ID: bf1e7e

>I think, Seal, you're taking this argument way too personally. Especially using off-site stuff as basis for extending the duration of a ban.

If you appeal your ban with 'you're a fag for banning me' you shouldn't really expect any sort of clemency.

>Besides, you complaining about someone posting "You mad" in a discussion is hypocritical, given that's your favourite counter-argument.

Again: Prove it. You and beakie keep saying things like this, but it simply isn't true.

>Seal, you're really kind of a hypocrite at times. You do have a tendency to stir things up and then start banning people over them or just banning people for doing something you don't like while criticising people who would probably do the same if they were in your position.

Again, when have I done this? People keep mentioning these OH SO COMMON OCCURENCES where I do things that I have no recollection of. Perhaps these instances are being manufactured whole-cloth?

>because moderation based on the rules feels arbitrary and motivated more by personal vendettas than actual breaches of rules.

Because punishment for an extended, planned campaign of trolling and harassment of users followed up by a /b/-style justification when called on it is SO unwarranted.

The only reason that this is even close to 'bad' moderation is that the people involved were given a second chance and a warning instead of just immediately banned outright.
>>
No. 15058 ID: 2563d4

>>15055
Half this fucking site is autistic. Or have you not seen /questdis/?
>>
No. 15059 ID: 15b51b

>>15051
I never called you a troll or said you didn't belong in my murry purry official secret fanclub chat room and neither did anyone else while I was around.

The only time I know that you were accused of trolling was a time you admitted that you were trolling, but then we all made up and then Slinkoboy wrote a letter to Princess Celestia about the valuable lesson we had learned about the value of friendship. (Before also deciding to leave)

I mean, I'm not gonna throw down over someone leaving a channel. I'm still kind of embarassed that it exists. But whatever I said, I didn't mean it like that. :(
>>
No. 15062 ID: bf1e7e

>>15045

Once again:

>Usually, if I am calling you a fag, I am just another fag on the internet calling you a fag. If I make a note of being a mod and call you a fag, I am telling you that you are being a fag from the perspective of a person whose task is to punish you for being a fag.
>>
No. 15064 ID: 10c20a

>>15044

As someone who has argued with Seal more than ANYONE, I believe I can confidently state that the claims of his flagrant use of "u mad" to win arguments is entirely false. He never even uses the phrase in an argument when he is actually arguing. If the words "u mad" ever leave his fingertips or mouth, it's because he isn't arguing, he's either interjecting into someone else's argument, or he isn't taking the topic that the person he's talking to as an actual thing at all. So I really don't know what you're talking about.
>>
No. 15067 ID: d5ec03

>>15064
>srs business
>big dumb argument thread

I see Seal cannot take a joke in the midst of an argument.

Him saying he never says "u mad" is kind of like if Numbers said he didn't like Latex though. Obviously he really was mad and didn't like being on the receiving end of it for once. Also, perhaps people would take him a little more seriously if he wasn't trolling or otherwise trying to make people mad so very frequently.

Saying "it's okay to say 'u mad' when I say it but whenever anyone else says it they are obviously 100% serious" is kind of retarded.
>>
No. 15068 ID: f7ae22

>>15059
[00:31]Deadbeard: LD trolls everyone though
[00:31]TestPattern: LD was trolling Slinko and accusing him of including rape and so on.
[00:31]TestPattern: If LD is going to consistently troll everyone then he can do it in a different channel.
[00:33]TestPattern: Like, if he says a nice thing, I can never be sure he means it.
[01:14]Blaank: LD is never nice.
[01:37]Fredrick: why the fuck do they keep putting nicholas cage in movies
I never "admitted that [I] was trolling", I apologized to Slinkoboy for being rude and making him feel bad.
>>
No. 15069 ID: bf1e7e

>>15067

>Saying "it's okay to say 'u mad' when I say it but whenever anyone else says it they are obviously 100% serious" is kind of retarded.

Actually I am basically always serious when I tell someone that they're mad, which is almost exclusively when I tell Numbers that he's getting super mad about something that isn't worth getting mad about when he's arguing with someone else.

And, again, resorting to /b/ shit when you're already only still around by the moderator's good graces is kind of a retarded thing to do =V It would usually be fine to do. But once it reaches the point where the mods are saying 'you are being a problem, stop it,' trolling them is just asking for a ban.
>>
No. 15070 ID: 557e92

Mods are like children: they should be seen and not heard.
>>
No. 15071 ID: e3f578

>>15070
And they're authority figures should beat the heavily. Admins, if a mod doesn't have a black eye and bruises where we don't see them, then do so. Because mods are obviously children, and we can't have them being all willy nilly.

>>15068
LD brought up an interesting point.
Why in sweet mercy IS Nicholas Cage still in movies?
>>
No. 15072 ID: bf1e7e

>>15071

because Nicolas Cage is awesome.

Duh.
>>
No. 15073 ID: 2563d4

>>15068
>The only time I know that you were accused of trolling was a time you admitted that you were trolling, but then we all made up and then Slinkoboy wrote a letter to Princess Celestia about the valuable lesson we had learned about the value of friendship. (Before also deciding to leave)
The chronology's a bit off but I assume he's talking about the big three-way dickslapping between you, Slinko, and LonelyWorld which I think most of those quotes refer to. (Blaank is just Blaank.)

The logs regarding that one span something like three days, though. (Most of it was 18th April.)

>>15069
>But once it reaches the point where the mods are saying 'you are being a problem, stop it,' trolling them is just asking for a ban.
It's probably the point where that moderator should step back and let the others make a call on it.

Stating the obvious: for all I know Seal did exactly that.
>>
No. 15074 ID: e41ad5

>>15070
Well.

There's an argument for both ways, really.

In one sense, Mods are like policemen. Most of the crimes police prevent aren't because they arrest people, it's because they are clearly present. People don't (usually) commit crimes in the presence of an officer, because, well, jail sucks and no one wants to go there. Eventually, in a community with a tight hold on law, this evolves (Hopefully) into a feeling that the cops will simply know you did something, whether they are there or not - thus halting more crime with less effort.

Now, the opposition to this sort of thing is if the cop in question isn't very good at his job. Say, he's inconsistent. Now, an incosistent cop is a pretty bad thing. The reason people keep pulling those roulette wheels works on the same principle - if someone thinks that they might get away with it, they might just do it. In this case, the visible cop is a bad thing, worse than the one that is not present but consistent.

Now, I'm not saying Seal's a bad cop. I'm saying we're still a rather young community, where the cops are still visible, and where the need to have the big mean red text show up is still evident.

That's why the 'Mod hat' is necessary. That's why the 'Daddy voice' is necessary. It's group psychology, incredibly simple. Until the community respects the rules as a whole and doesn't need examples made of the trespassers, that shit is still gonna happen.
>>
No. 15076 ID: 0d09e9

>If you appeal your ban with 'you're a fag for banning me' you shouldn't really expect any sort of clemency.

You were a fag for doing that because of a post in this thread and you know it, you even admit yourself that you set the ban for far too long presumably after the other mods called you out on it. You made a mistake, it's okay, we all do.

>Actually I am basically always serious when I tell someone that they're mad, which is almost exclusively when I tell Numbers that he's getting super mad about something that isn't worth getting mad about when he's arguing with someone else.

so you now admit that you call people mad frequently? You call more people mad or say they are a big gay baby frequently and if you do not want that behavior directed back at you you shouldn't do it in the first place, again, your own damn fault.

>But once it reaches the point where the mods are saying 'you are being a problem, stop it,' trolling them is just asking for a ban.
That never happened and the post in this thread that triggered the ban is completely unrelated to any fictional warning given.
>>
No. 15077 ID: 2563d4

>>15073
>the log is huge
Well guess what I had 40 minutes to burn while something was in the oven and my art box was memchecking so ITL ERRYONE MAD:
http://pastey.net/149697-1liq
Also everyone assumes LawyerDog is at fault what a tweest.
>>
No. 15078 ID: 0d09e9

>>15076
Oh, and before anyone claims the sticky is a warning, no, it only clarified that guro was allowed. That's all. It says nothing about being a hugbox and having no negative comments whatsoever.
>>
No. 15079 ID: 0d09e9

How about this seal, I will apologize for harassing people in /draw/ if you apologize for banning me for having a big dumb argument in the big dumb argument thread.
>>
No. 15080 ID: bf1e7e

>>15076

>you even admit yourself that you set the ban for far too long presumably after the other mods called you out on it.

I was planning to shift the ban to draw-only at dinner that night before I came home, actually.

>so you now admit that you call people mad frequently?

All the time, but never in an argument. Typically when they are raging and/or ranting about something silly.

>That never happened

The mod hat was on.

>>15078

http://quest.lv/kusaba/news.php?p=rules

>Deal with arguments and derailing of threads.
>Deal with people trolling or antagonizing other users
>Ban anyone who continually is a problem.

Right there on the rules page. This has not been edited, those have been the rules for quite some time. Ignorance of these rules is entirely on you, not on me for not constantly reminding you of them all of the time forever.

>>15079

>I will apologize for breaking the rules if you will apologize for doing something you didn't do.

I banned you for TROLLING, not for having a big dumb argument. Even bitequest and slowpoke told you straight up, 'yeah, that would have been fine without the you so mad' when you were whining about it in the skype call.

So I will not apologize for banning you for trolling, and I don't really expect you to apologize for breaking the rules. I'll just tell you to take that shit back to 4chan's /tg/ where it 'belongs.'
>>
No. 15083 ID: 1854db

>>15080
>mod hat was on

Okay hang on, if a mod posts with the red mod title, it's an unstated warning?

I would prefer it if the warning was actually stated. Thus, my asking why 'mod hat' is even a term that you are using. It's kinda bullshit, imo.

>>15064
>interjecting into someone's argument
When you do this, you are part of the argument, and thus are arguing. I believe this is why people see Seal as using 'u mad' during arguments.
>>
No. 15084 ID: 15b51b

>>15068
I still think you were way out of line with all the rape talk, but I didn't mean it quite like that. I'm sorry.
>>
No. 15085 ID: bf1e7e

>>15083

>Okay hang on, if a mod posts with the red mod title, it's an unstated warning?

You have to manually turn on the mod tag for any post that you make with it. If someone is using it, they are choosing to speak AS A MOD, and not just as a normal user (as we are wont to do).

>When you do this, you are part of the argument, and thus are arguing.

That is absolutely not the case. Telling someone that they are being incoherent due to their anger when they are raging at/arguing with someone else is not actually taking part in the argument.

>I believe this is why people see Seal as using 'u mad' during arguments.

Actually, Beakie was just trying to use that as an excuse for doing it now; and Numbers is taking his side because he's still upset about being demodded and/or because he was the other guy repeatedly telling the drawfags to leave the site. Neither of them actually recalls me ever doing that in an argument, they're just making excuses.

Or their memories are faulty, I guess that is also possible.
>>
No. 15086 ID: 8e18cd

>>15085

I don't believe you've dragged something that happened nearly a year ago into this, but okay, if that's your argument...

And I've told them to get out, sure, few times. Each time when people were requesting disturbing guro shit. Hell I don't really like Bite's guro shit and he knows it.

And yes you use "U MAD" constantly when me and someone else is actually discussing something, you butt in with "THE THING IS THAT YOU MAD" before a person can explain my argument (that you often don't agree with). If you don't have anything to add to a discussion besides that, you should not butt into discussions like that. I'm pretty sure people would feel better without it. If you want to present an coherent argument in a discussion, do it.
>>
No. 15087 ID: 788dee

I'm starting to think this site needs content restrictions.

And a vote.

There seems to be a difference of opinion as to what "tolerance" means.
As well as the rules. They can either be held to the letter, or to the spirit, but not both, alternating between them whenever it suits the mods/posters.
>>
No. 15089 ID: f5e4b4

>>15087

Are you're only saying that because the mods decisions don't appeal to your tastes/convictions.

>>15086

If you're having that discussion in a public channel, whoever wants can "butt in" the discussion and say whatever they want. If you don't want people to "butt in" your super serious discussions you should take them to a private place. And this still doesn't present any precedence of a mod using a "U MAD" during a serious argument.
>>
No. 15090 ID: 2563d4

>Seal does/does not use U MAD all the time

$ egrep -i '(ClockworkSeal|Love.?Drifter).*(u|you)\s+mad\b' rubyquest-*
Precisely fucking nothing

And just in case you think I've fucked up the regexp, let me just remove that "mad ends a word" test:

$ egrep -i '(ClockworkSeal|Love.?Drifter).*(u|you)\s+mad' rubyquest-* | head -n 2
rubyquest-2010-11-15.txt:04:21 < ClockworkSeal> you made a deal with lucid to keep her alive
rubyquest-2011-02-23.txt:00:01 < Love_Drifter> Cirr you made Bungee Grapple Adventures for me you obviously aren't a h8r

There's over half a year of logs of one of the channels Seal is active in looking for his two main nicks. It's far from a perfect search, but it's finding nothing. If he's "U MAD"-ing all the time I would expect more than nothing.
>>
No. 15091 ID: e41ad5

>>15083
Let's say an officer of the law starts talking to you about you causing a whole lot of ruckus, and he doesn't like people disturbing the peace.

Are you going to then push over a cart of apples while you're talking to him?
>>
No. 15092 ID: bf1e7e

>>15086

>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 10:14:49

SURE IS A YEAR THERE.

I guess I must have been confused by your endless rants about how he should leave the site and how gross the stuff he draw is in skype, along with your history of telling him to leave up to a month ago and then changing tack to just insinuating that he'd be happier on gurochan than here (after he mentioned that he was happy here).
>>
No. 15093 ID: 788dee

>>15089
You're only saying that because you don't like it when people disagree with your favored opinion.

See, two can play this game.

But no. I said it because it would put a decisive end to the debate. It wouldn't be just someone saying so, it would be incontestable. I see lots of claims directly or indirectly referring to the opinions of others. "Well people don't seem to complain about it", "people have said they don't like it", etc.
>>
No. 15094 ID: 8e18cd

>>15092

I was referring to demodding drama. But whatever...
>>
No. 15095 ID: 0d09e9

>So I will not apologize for banning you for trolling, and I don't really expect you to apologize for breaking the rules.
Alright then.

I'm sorry for harassing other users of this site that are perfectly valid users of the site under the site's rules and acknowledge that telling them to leave is trolling. I need to learn that no matter how much I disagree with people's choices, no matter how wrong they are on the Internet, sometimes I need to leave them alone and not let myself get so mad over what other people do. That's why I have my own stuff that I can do differently, after all, and I need to work on that instead of trying to change anyone else, or worse, try to remove them from the site entirely.

I'm also sorry that the "u mad" and macro were taken the wrong way, which is really my own fault as I am the one who did not understand where that is and is not appropriate.

...Though I would appreciate it if you stopped saying "u mad," "big gay baby," or "you's a busta" to everyone all the time forever in the skype call as that was what led to my confusion and is also kind of annoying.

Still, my bad.
>>
No. 15096 ID: bf1e7e

>>15095

Dude I told you you don't need to apologize. It's the past, you've been punished accordingly, everyone can (in theory, but probably not in practice because INTERNET) move on! That was totally unnecessary!

Also I will stop calling people bustas when they stop all the bustin'. But fine I won't call you a big gay baby in skype any more =V
>>
No. 15097 ID: 383006

>>15077
Okay, I know this is probably way irrelevant, but yeah, my Roz picture was not supposed to be rape in any way. The picture was what would happen if Roz had sex with Venji, because they had talked about him being really toxic and he kept hitting on her (this was before he turned into a ghost). I was implying that if she actually let him sleep with her, his dick would poison her all to shit. That was supposed to be the joke.

I always thought that Slinko was mad because it looked like she was dieing and I sort of implied that I thought that she would die, I didn't know you thought it was rape. It was not intended to be rape.

LEGAL NOTE: Whether or not you pass out half way through depends on jurisdiction. In some states, a woman can revoke consent at any time. In some states, she can only revoke consent before penetration. Whether or not her lapse into unconsciousness would constitute a lack of consent would probably depend on the facts. In some states, silence could be construed as a revocation of consent.
>>
No. 15100 ID: 2563d4
File 130464477909.png - (30.22KB , 480x480 , yeah-i-know-the-one-on-the-right-is-green.png )
15100

>>15097
Dear Princess Celestia,

Today I learned a valuable lesson about friendship. Sometimes, people form rifts in their relationships due to miscommunication and assumption. If you can't always assume the best of others, it can still help to talk things out with them rather than letting the issue sit and fester.

Your Faithful Student,
Overcast Gloom
>>
No. 15101 ID: a41aaf

>>15097
>In some states, she can only revoke consent before penetration.
Wait, really? That seems pretty damn open to abuse.
>>
No. 15102 ID: 383006

>>15101
It's really interesting and sort of a hard area to regulate. You want to make sure that the rules are fair in both directions. On the one hand, you don't want to require some kind of physical resistance from the woman - you want to protect people who are coerced into sex. On the other hand, you don't want to give unscrupulous women a weapon they can use to ruin people they don't like. It's very tricky. You don't want to protect rapists, but you don't want to give women the ability to put a guy in jail (and on the sex offender's registry for the rest of his life) because she has 'buyer's remorse.'
>>
No. 15103 ID: f5e4b4

I say kill them all and let god sort them out.
>>
No. 15106 ID: 60ca9f

>>15103

Oh, like in that movie, Antz, where the new babies were either designated 'worker' or 'soldier!'
>>
No. 15108 ID: a41aaf

>>15106
HAPLO-DIPLOIDS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.
>>
No. 15112 ID: 4d21cb

I humbly request the story about how SDF hurt the butt of some whiny idiot and got banned from #rubyquest for it.
>>>/questdis/346044
And Indigo should be banned for "stirring up drama" with his pathetic revenge-art.
>>
No. 15113 ID: bf1e7e

>>15112

He trolled enough that the channel's moderators decided to kick him out for it.

>And Indigo should be banned for "stirring up drama" with his pathetic revenge-art.

Nah, deletion is sufficient.
>>
No. 15115 ID: 788dee

>>15112
http://tinypaste.com/705e40

My excuse is that I was sober and fully aware of my actions.
>>
No. 15116 ID: 8e18cd

>>15113

While we at it, can the stupid discussion be cleared from there as well?
>>
No. 15117 ID: e3f578

>>15115
I read that and all I can think is that starburst has a major fanboner for Larro. He would not fucking drop it.
Also, SDF lacks timing in his trolling.
>>
No. 15118 ID: 2563d4

>>15117
I see no trolling from SDF in that log.

I do see people being openly hostile and making the chat a less welcoming place, but those people are mostly Seven.
>>
No. 15120 ID: e3f578

>>15118
Well he did seem to post nonsensically.
I guess I need to update my definitions and stop listening to people who say someone's trolling. A critical flaw in my book I keep overseeing.
>>
No. 15121 ID: f5fe2f

>>15120
Posting nonsensically != trolling.
>>
No. 15122 ID: e3f578

>>15121
Yeah that's the flaw.
Mixed joking/horsing around with trolling. Like that image. Sometimes I saw a form of antagonistic intent but that was a misreading. My bad.
Doesn't make starburst's fanboner for Larro go away though.
>>
No. 15123 ID: 788dee

The worst thing is nobody answered my question: Maine coon or Norwegian forest cat?
>>
No. 15124 ID: 2563d4

>>15120
This is what is known as a joke. It is a pretty common jape on the Internets, that doing anything one-handed means you are using the other one to pleasure yourself:
>00:08'42 <Indigo> only arcade machines, i can't use a controller one handed
>00:08'55 <Dikdiklauncher> Then stop wanking while playing.

This is Seven being a hostile faggot because he cannot into jokes because he has half a potato for a brain:
>00:09'06 <Seven_remote> SDF: There is this place.
>00:09'11 <Seven_remote> It is called hell
>00:09'26 <Seven_remote> Spend some time there, kthnx

Here is Indigo being sensitive to people saying things---note that SDF's communism shtick is directed at Colour for liking gamepads and also Phrix and Squeegy for joining in:
>00:23'50 <Dikdiklauncher> NOW THEY ARE SHIT ZOMBIE GOASTS
>00:24'03 <Indigo> i gotta go, i can't liten to sdf anymore
If you think Indigo has a point here I sure hope you haven't been arguing for a click-ignore-and-move-on policy for /draw/ upthread!

Here's Seven being friendly again:
>00:24'15 <Seven_remote> We can ban him!
I must have missed the part where Seven got ops.

This is a simple statement of fact:
>00:24'25 <Bluhphone> We love you indigo
>00:24'28 <Dikdiklauncher> No we don't.

This is yet more classic nonsensical threeP IRC moderation with no warning:
>00:26'33 <starburst98> you need two hands to keyboard AND mouse
>00:26'54 <Dikdiklauncher> YOU DON'T HAVE TO GLUE A HAND PER DEVICE
>00:27'13 * threeP sets mode: +b *!*@Rizon-80465191.bb.dnainternet.fi
>00:27'33 * [SDF was] kicked by threeP (this isn't /b/. quit being a dikdikhole)

(Just recently:)
>21:14 <~TG_Weaver> There was an argument, SDF got banned for being abusive even after being warned
There is no warning in the ~40 minutes leading up to that ban.
>>
No. 15125 ID: f5fe2f

The moral of this story is threeP should not have OPS.
>>
No. 15127 ID: e3f578

>>15124
Okay yeah dude I admitted it was a joke I oversaw as trolling because some people just don't like SDF too much and say he's trolling 100% of the time as a fact.
Well jokes can get pretty damn annoying though. Indigo drawing revengeart yeah okay, that's really lame, but I can understand the notion of wanting to leave.
You can only tell a joke so much before it gets annoying as shit.
>>
No. 15128 ID: f7ae22

ThreeP is the shittiest OP ever, she's banned multiple people for no reason and she posts real gore links despite Weaver saying they shouldn't be posted in #rubyquest.
>>
No. 15129 ID: 2563d4

>>15127
Sorry, casual English. The "you" in that post is supposed to be the general case, not you in particular.
>>
No. 15130 ID: 6930ef

>>15123
Maine coon, bro. The guy in the apartment next to me has one, they're pretty much the best cats ever.
>>
No. 15132 ID: 788dee

>>15130
Then the next question is: how available are they outside the USA of USA?

Also how well do they get along with dogs?
>>
No. 15135 ID: 6930ef
File 130471940155.png - (465.67KB , 640x480 , Cat-MaineCoon-Cookie.png )
15135

>>15132
I don't know about their availability outside the States (I'd assume they're not too difficult to find, since they're 'one of the most popular cat breeds in the world'), but on the whole, Maine coons are one of the chillest cat breeds, so they should get along well with other pets and so on.

They're also adorable.
>>
No. 15137 ID: f5fe2f

>>15128
>and she posts real gore links despite Weaver saying they shouldn't be posted in #rubyquest.
That's not really related to her channel moderation.
>>
No. 15138 ID: f7ae22

>>15137
She's breaking rules she should be enforcing.
>>
No. 15144 ID: a41aaf

>>15124
Maybe the assumption was that everyone already knew Indigo was missing an arm, so assumed the one-handed jokes were trolling? Then again, I'd also completely forgot that IRC had /ignore, so huh.
lolrandumb is pretty annoying though.
>>
No. 15145 ID: f5fe2f

>>15144
I had no idea Indigo was missing an arm. That doesn't make one-handed jokes trolling, though, it just makes them not very nice.
>>
No. 15154 ID: fd4aa7

>>15144
>lolrandumb is pretty annoying though.
Yeah, I don't care for any of Indigo's "contributions" either. :V

>>15145
Given >>13306 , I would not particularly assume that if he claims to be missing an arm that he is actually missing an arm.
>>
No. 15155 ID: f5fe2f

>>15154
I don't overmuch care how closely the identity he chooses to assume aligns with his actual physical situation.
>>
No. 15157 ID: 1854db

I'm kinda sick of the LACK of active ops in #rubyquest. ThreeP isn't even paying attention most of the time, it seems, and the only other op is Weaver. Of course I am also aggravated by the fact that she links inappropriate stuff.

Weaver needs to give ops to people other than his closest friends for fuck's sake. Maybe give them to people who are active in chat, have been shown to care about the community, and aren't abrasive or hotheaded? (that last one excludes me in case anyone thought I was implying I wanted ops)
>>
No. 15159 ID: f5fe2f

>>15157
I don't know that it really requires moderation beyond what it currently receives.

Also even though it's used as a community general discussion, I feel we should remember that it's really just Weaver's personal channel.
>>
No. 15161 ID: 2563d4

>>15145
>I had no idea Indigo was missing an arm. That doesn't make one-handed jokes trolling, though, it just makes them not very nice.
>>15155
>I don't overmuch care how closely the identity he chooses to assume aligns with his actual physical situation.

Guys, I have this totally legitimate medical condition where people disagreeing me makes my legs fall off. Please don't argue against me or you'll get banned for being not very nice to a disabled person. :(
>>
No. 15162 ID: 788dee

All I know about Badumb is that at first at least a few people shared my dislike for him, then his quests had some people's support AND he was a girl, and THEN he's missing an arm and I get banned from an IRC channel because me commenting on Yanks and Limeys separating England from Europe is apparently too much for him to handle.
>>
No. 15165 ID: 6930ef

>>15162
Yeah, to be honest, I don't really see how the whole Yanks/Limeys thing had anything to do with indigo at all.
>>
No. 15166 ID: 5d54a5

>>15157
Well I also have Ops, I just never sign in with it. So if you need moderation you can always ding me. I should probably make this a little more obvious by signing in occasionally but I am lazy.
>>
No. 15170 ID: 868a23

>>15166
>but I am lazy
and there's the problem
>>
No. 15171 ID: f5fe2f

>>15166
You can rig your client to sign in automatically, you know.
>>
No. 15196 ID: b6c6fc

listening to SDF's bullshit made everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE) on IRC seem like reasonable civilized individuals by comparison

if IRC didn't have an ignore feature I probably would have had to leave TGchan all together
>>
No. 15200 ID: f5fe2f

>>15196
>listening to SDF's bullshit made everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE) on IRC seem like reasonable civilized individuals by comparison
That sounds like a good reason to keep him around, to me.

Also it sounds like your sense of humor is a wee bit on the nonexistant side.
>>
No. 15201 ID: 28e94e

>>15200
Stalin made just about every other dictator in the world look tame in comparison.
That sounds like a good reason to keep him around, to me.

Also SDF is a fucking troll. We only keep him around because he's also one of our best quest authors when he feels like updating.
>>
No. 15202 ID: f5fe2f

>>15201
>SDF is a fucking troll.
No he's not. He has a sense of humor that you personally are unamused by.
These things are not the same thing.
>>
No. 15203 ID: e3f578

Annoying though
Sense of humor or no, can be really annoying.
>>
No. 15204 ID: b6c6fc

>>15200
the problem with SDF is that he doesn't know when to shut up
provide a serrious comment.
or Buhdda forbid, Apologize.

even the funniest people will get on your nerves eventually. and personally outside of his Quest I have never found SDF to be funny

>>15202
SDF is a troll because he knows his brand of humor pisses people off but continues to do it constantly and when call out on it, only increases the fervor of his "humor"
>>
No. 15205 ID: f5fe2f

>>15204
>the problem with SDF is that he doesn't know when to shut up, provide a serious comment, or Buhdda forbid, Apologize.
I don't think any of those are really things he needs to be doing, though.

>SDF is a troll because he knows his brand of humor pisses people off but continues to do it constantly and when call out on it, only increases the fervor of his "humor"
phrased slightly differently "SDF is a troll because he refuses to stop having fun when a stick in the mud whines about it".

A guy joking on the internet is a stupid thing to get mad about.
>>
No. 15208 ID: b6c6fc

>>15205
whelp I guess he's the funniest guy ever
and I'm just imagining things

I Think I'm going to go back to pretending he doesn't exist
>>
No. 15210 ID: 1854db

>>15205
If you keep doing something when someone complains, and in fact do it MORE when someone complains, it is no longer attempting to be funny. In that case... well, you're doing it to get a rise out of them, which is trolling.

Not everyone who complains about what someone else is doing is a stick in the mud, and not every joke is harmless.
>>
No. 15211 ID: f7ae22

>>15210
I don't like it when 1854db posts, he should stop posting. If he doesn't that means he is trolling.
>>
No. 15213 ID: b6c6fc

>>15211
posting it self is not the issue
it the contents of the posts

for example telling SDF to tone it down with the rape jokes is a legitimate request
telling SDF not to say anything ever again on the channel is not
>>
No. 15215 ID: f5fe2f

>>15213
I don't like people bitching about others. Does that mean that your continued bitching is in fact trolling?

Also,
>for example telling SDF to tone it down with the rape jokes is a legitimate request
>telling SDF not to say anything ever again on the channel is not
You do realize he was banned, right? And banning prevents him from saying things on the channel, and is at least by default a permanent thing?
>>
No. 15216 ID: b6c6fc

>>15215
from what I've been told bans are not permanent

regardless his ban is a result of his defiant attitude
perhaps had he been a more reasonable individual that may not have happened
>>
No. 15218 ID: 1854db

>>15211
>>15215
Nice strawman argument there guys. Good job at pointing out there are exceptions to what I said though!
>>
No. 15219 ID: f7ae22

>>15218
The majority of the time someone doing what you said is not trolling, and the exception is that they are trolling. If we went by your definition of troll, literally everyone on the site would be a troll.
The entire site was formed because of people doing something in spite of complaints, specifically SDF!
>>
No. 15221 ID: 1854db

>>15219
...okay doing something someone doesn't like (when it is reasonable to tell them to stop) MORE when they say they don't like it ISN'T trolling? Because that is what I said was trolling.
>>
No. 15224 ID: bf1e7e

>>15215

>You do realize he was banned, right?

He was banned on #tgchan for spamming NO. PANCAKES. NINE. PANCAKES. three hundred times.

He earned that ban plenty well and good.
>>
No. 15225 ID: f7ae22

>>15221
No, what you said didn't include the highly subjective "(when it is reasonable to tell them to stop)"
Weaver continued running RubyQuest even though a lot of people complained about how they didn't like it, I guess he's a troll!
>>
No. 15226 ID: 1854db

>>15225
Yes, I didn't include that, but it was implied, because fucking hell why WOULDN'T I mean that? Thus, you and Crux then pointed out that via exaggeration. And now you're just looking foolish by continuing to do so even when I have already admitted that I should've put in that exception.
>>
No. 15228 ID: f7ae22

>>15226
Your incredibly nebulous definition ends up meaning nothing because it isn't consistent, much like most other definitions for troll. This is why calling anyone a troll, especially as reasoning for a ban, is stupid. Being banned from #tgchan for spamming is a clear and legitimate reason, being banned for "trolling" is not.
>>
No. 15230 ID: e41ad5

>Hurp durp there is no such thing as trolling

Yeah. Okay. Sure.
>>
No. 15233 ID: e3f578

On one side, the guy was annoying, not necessarily trolling but it's still being annoying and I can understand people's frustrations with that
On the other, I'm annoying half the time too. Would I want to be banned because I was being annoying, "nope.". I would find that unreasonable because I wasn't being annoying on purpose.

I guess the only suitable reason for the ban would be if he's annoying a mod and if he doesn't end up stopping, and ban happens to the fucking headache stops. Almost qualifies as an abuse of power, hell it probably does, but man does that fucking mod not want a headache right now.
>>
No. 15235 ID: 2563d4

>>15226
>Yes, I didn't include that, but it was implied, because fucking hell why WOULDN'T I mean that?
Well, for one thing you might not have been the kind of tosser who hides "in accordance with my wishes" behind a weasely use of "reasonable".
>>
No. 15237 ID: f5fe2f

>>15226
adding "unless I* feel this doesn't apply" does not make it less ridiculous. In fact, it makes it more ridiculous. People generally assume the least ridiculous scenario possible in their normal interactions. Thus, people assumed that the definition you posited did not include a caveat to make it entirely meaningless even though it was also stupid without that caveat.

>>15230
That's not what anybody said and you are a faggot for implying it is.

*because "reasonable" is entirely suggestive, and thus the assumed value for it is the value assigned by the speaker.
>>
No. 15243 ID: 2eac65

>>15230
>sarcasm
Of course there is such a thing as trolling. It has a clear definition, in theory. The problem is with how much of that definition is actually observable.

The idea is that the trolls will say or do anything they think will annoy people for the specific purpose of annoying them. But there's generally no real way to tell a troll apart from an innocent person who genuinely thinks a certain way. This makes it too easy for people to dismiss differing opinions, unusual manners of speech, unpopular hobbies, theories that violate their preconceptions, and anything else that makes them mad as " a troll who's just pretending"; this, in turn, leads to them focusing more on being hostile and rude towards people that annoy them, rather than trying to understand and reason with them.

For obvious reasons, this way of thinking is damaging to a community.
>>
No. 15244 ID: e41ad5

>>15237
>Your incredibly nebulous definition ends up meaning nothing because it isn't consistent, much like most other definitions for troll. This is why calling anyone a troll, especially as reasoning for a ban, is stupid. Being banned from #tgchan for spamming is a clear and legitimate reason, being banned for "trolling" is not.

>This is why calling anyone a troll, especially as reasoning for a ban, is stupid

>You can't ban anyone for trolling, because there's no such thing as trolling, which is why saying someone is trolling is stupid.

LD was pretty clear here.
>>
No. 15246 ID: f7ae22

I didn't say there was no such thing as a troll, I said that most definitions used to identify a troll are inconsistent, and that the nebulous one I was replying to specifically wasn't an exception. The post right above yours explains the problem of claiming that people are "trolling" well.
>>
No. 15247 ID: f5fe2f

>>15244
Are you submitting yourself as a counterexample to the idea that there is no such thing as a troll, or do you seriously not see the difference between "not sufficiently clearly defined to form a basis for policy" and "nonexistent"?
>>
No. 15248 ID: 2eac65

>>15244
I believe I need to clarify. The problem with the idea of "trolls" is that it doesn't describe a person's actions, it describes their motivation for said action. The action could be anything you don't like, no matter how innocent it would otherwise be, and the motivation is something you can only assume. Essentially, trolling is a thoughtcrime, and a convenient way to demonize people.

This means that, if an apparent troll is actually doing something unpleasant, he can be judged for that without invoking trolling, and if he isn't, then there's nothing to condemn him over even if he is as ill-intentioned as you assume. Either way, condemning someone because they look like a troll to you is counterproductive.
>>
No. 15254 ID: 1854db

>>15228
>>15235
>>15237
>nebulous
>weasely
>"unless I* feel this doesn't apply"
What the FUCK? I never claimed to be the one judging whether or not something would apply! That's for everyone to decide. You guys are repeatedly misrepresenting what I say in order to discount it. Stop making such obvious strawman arguments, it makes you look like idiots.

Anyway, that thing I said? That one case where something would be trolling? Not even a definition of the term trolling. A definition restricts something to one meaning, whereas this was just an example of one of the many ways which trolling can happen. If someone is doing something MORE after someone says they don't like it, it is easy to conclude that they are doing it BECAUSE the other person doesn't like it. That's inflammatory. Provoking the other person. Trolling. You cannot deny this. It is not always CORRECT to conclude this, and sometimes asking someone to stop doing something is unreasonable. These are obvious things that I shouldn't have to state. In general, though, I think this example holds true. If it's nebulous, that's because trolling itself is nebulous. You can't nail it down objectively.

I'm not even saying SDF was trolling, mind you, or arguing that people should be banned like he was for similar offenses. Maybe that's why you guys are fighting so hard to discredit me? Personally I have no opinion on the matter. I don't care that he was banned at all. He was (in recent memory) usually annoying but sometimes amusing, and didn't contribute in any big way to the channel positively or negatively. So, no big loss, and no big gain. A resounding meh.
>>
No. 15255 ID: f7ae22

>>15254
Okay, so you're saying that everything you've posted means absolutely nothing, while also insulting people for not understanding that you're spewing words for absolutely no raisin? You've changed your position entirely and I don't even know what your point is anymore.
Pro-tip: It's not a strawman if it only doesn't represent your point because you changed your point to avoid the refutation.
>>If someone is doing something MORE after someone says they don't like it, it is easy to conclude that they are doing it BECAUSE the other person doesn't like it. That's inflammatory. Provoking the other person. Trolling. You cannot deny this.
I can deny this because you're making the false assumption that correlation means causation. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, Mr. 1854db.
>>
No. 15256 ID: e41ad5

>>15255
Alright then, if his definition falls short, what's yours?
>>
No. 15257 ID: 2563d4

>>15254
>I'm not an idiot; all you guys are idiots for criticising my argument (which I keep changing)
American proverb: If three people tell you that you are drunk, you better lie down.
>>
No. 15258 ID: f7ae22

>>15256
The one 2eac65 said.
>>
No. 15259 ID: f5fe2f

>>15254
>>15254
>I never claimed to be the one judging whether or not something would apply! That's for everyone to decide.
In other words, you want to assemble a jury composed of the entire population for every incidence, to deduce subjectively if the word "trolling" applies, rather than just using a definition that isn't horrendously flawed?

>You guys are repeatedly misrepresenting what I say in order to discount it. Stop making such obvious strawman arguments
Nah. We're providing situations under which your definition is even more clearly flawed than in the base situation. A strawman would be if we made a post pretending to be on your side that misconstrued your argument or made it appear weaker than it actually is. The things we're providing are caled "counterexamples", and are a legitimate means of contesting a point.

>Maybe that's why you guys are fighting so hard to discredit me?
No, this is the normal response to someone being wrong on the internet.

>>15256
Language is dependent on consensus, and it is intended for utility, thus the most widely accepted definition is usually the most useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
>In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
>>
No. 15264 ID: 1854db

I give up, there's no talking sense into either of you. I just restated my original post twice over, each time it meant the same damn thing, and now I'm being accused of changing my argument. And hey, looks like crux is linking the wikipedia article that I was partially basing my claim on. Good show.
>>
No. 15265 ID: 1854db

And you know what, since apparently we're linking wikipedia, have this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>
No. 15281 ID: 940ab2

wikipedia: n; plural of 'anecdote'
>>
No. 15808 ID: 67bfa6

>>15806

I'm done because there's nothing left for me to do in that argument. I think the other side of the argument is retarded. I have nothing to say about the Orb and it's use and blah blah. It is completely uninteresting to me.

The other side considers my argument to be retarded. They think that there's a great deal of worth in the original idea and that by trying to alter and change that idea to one's own use there's something terrible about that. I don't think so.

So we have a very basic failing to understand or care about each others arguments. Anything past this point is going to be absolutely retarded. Why on earth would I want to put up with a bunch of unpleasant little shits presenting an argument I have no interest in, and doing so in a shitty, asinine fashion? That's ridiculous. There's absolutely no reason I'd do such a thing. What kind of retard would?
>>
No. 15809 ID: 788dee

>>15808
No. What's happening here is that you are advocating the pointless overuse of a pointlessly overused McGuffin ripped from one quest and getting a fucking hissy fit when people don't reply to you with posts worded with puppies, rainbows and smiling flowers.

You are done because you have no argument other than "please be unoriginal and overuse an overused McGuffin".
>>
No. 15810 ID: 67bfa6

>>15809

Man, I was gonna be rude as hell but after writing I just don't feel like it. It feels good to talk about writing, even if it is to a slobbering mob. That's crazy.

In any case, I've got plenty of reasoning for my view. I've got four quests in mind that each use a McGuffin, each with it's own use. It's not just being thrown in for the hell of it, there's reasoning behind it and if you'd be so kind as to read it you might see as much.

So, this first quest, Masks. It shares it's name with some old quest that never really got off the ground. Whatever, they'll forgive me, I'll rewrite the name or it'll fall fall to the wayside (likely the last in all honesty). But I digress. Masks features a unique, magical setting with a lot of rules and weirdness to it. Oh, I'd better go more into detail or some jackass will say I'm being to vague or some such. Although I'm sure the longer this post gets, the more likely it is to be ignored.

Specifically, the magic to Masks has everything to do with the name. At the dawn of creation, the humans of Mask committed some terrible, unforgivable crime. This so angered the gods that they placed a terrible curse on humanity. From that point onward, every child born came with a mask on their face, a constant reminder of their eternal shame. What's more, while one might be able to take off their mask, if ever they were seen without it they would perish. Humanity was forever forbidden that simple act.

Well, as the society of Masks grew, they discovered great magic within the masks that allowed them to do all kinds of neat stuff. Chief amongst these abilities was the magic of domination. The masks were gateways to the soul and by directly interacting with someone's mask you could have complete access to their life. With a simple movement you could unmask them and doom them, or with a small ritual bind them in subservience to your will.

Throw in other things like the dark and secretive nature of the people of the setting or the backstabbing politics of the city where it'd take place and there was just a lot to tell the players. I wanted there to be a mystery to the place, that foreign feeling of being in a truly exotic and strange place. So rather than put the audience behind the eyes of the protagonist, a talented assassin who questions the nature of the world but finds himself swept along in its tides, I sought to have the players look from behind a McGuffin. This way, they'd be coming in with no prior knowledge of the setting and would have limited access to sources of knowledge. It was either that or have another amnesiac protagonist and I think we've seen enough of those.

Specifically, the McGuffin was supposed to be an item crafted by the Goddess of Fate and handed down to humanity. The McGuffin was to be passed on to a powerful merchant lord who had allied himself with the church and from there the first session or so was supposed to be a period of acclimation. The merchant lord would look on to the device with a mix of wonder and pity as the audience slowly adapted to the cutthroat world. I'd make the merchant lord somewhat likable, but he'd have a cruel streak to him as well, one that would show itself whenever I felt the audience was getting too close to him.

Then, when the time was right, I'd spring the true protagonist in, who'd assassinate the merchant lord as part of a grander scheme plotted by a rival house. The McGuffin would then fall into his hands and, after another small period of acclimation, the quest would really begin.

Now I feel like there are some good reasons behind the use of the McGuffin here. I'm allowed to slowly introduce the setting from a strangers perspective, something that would be impossible without shoving something else in the setting. I could use an amnesiac or an outsider, like I did in Showtime, but without some complicated background that allowed them to somehow use all the skills required to keep up with the protagonist in his bloody work I wouldn't be able to tell the kind of story I'd like to tell. What's more, without altering the plot a bit I'd have to miss out on that first scene with the merchant, which I like a lot.

I'm not saying it would be impossible to run the quest without a McGuffin, I can see how I could. But I feel it would be weaker.

I was gonna put all four here but this took longer than I thought. Whatever, I'm chillax at this point. Was mad, not no more. I'll wait for the next barrage of scathing rebuttals and then probably move on to the next one.
>>
No. 15811 ID: 788dee

>>15810
Nobody's complaining about McGuffins existing and being used. The complaint was HAVING THE MCGUFFIN BE AN ORB WITH "PSYCHE" IN THE NAME ALWAYS SUGGESTED WHEN SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT STARTING A QUEST.

Also
>chillax
Wow man like dude you're so cool like you totally like man like have to like totally use a retardese word dude like totally man because like man dude like totally the like totally best like way man like to totally like prove like you're totally calm is like dude totally like man like totally dude using words only condescending pricks and retards use.
>>
No. 15812 ID: 67bfa6

>>15811
Hey bro, you should chillax. S'cool.

S'far as I can tell there are folks that are anti McGuffin. But if'n that ain't the case then yeah. I guess I got nothin' to argue against. Huh. Shame, was lookin' forward to posting more questy stuff. Fucking Masks has been in the vault for almost 2 years. So many ideas and not enough talent to execute 'em. Ah well.

So, err, guess I really am done then. Shame I made an arse out of myself in the process. Ah well, these things happen. I'll be back when next the McGuffin comes under siege~
>>
No. 15813 ID: bf1e7e

The funny thing is that this goober thinks that the orb of infinite psyche is a mcguffin. It isn't. A mcguffin is something with absolutely no purpose outside of the narrative purpose of 'being somebody's motivation.' The maltese falcon is a mcguffin. The orb of infinite psyche is a means for the players to interact with the quest.
>>
No. 15816 ID: e3f578
 

So like is this thread also used for discussion of questions? It technically counts as discussion. You see, this video brings up important issues that I feel that tgchan needs to discuss.

Is it gay to suck a dick for money? Is it possible to be so secure in one's masculinity that one could suck a duck and be straight and neither of the two sexualities? And if your straight, would you got a boner if a dude touched your Piinis, cause we all know that when we ourself do it or a girl does, yes we get a boner?

Because this fucking video is blowing my fucking mind.
>>
No. 15817 ID: 2563d4

>>15813
Ayup.
>>
No. 15850 ID: 383006

>>15810
The question you should ask yourself is "why does it have to be a magical orb, and why does it have to be called the orb of infinite psyche?" If the answer to these questions is "it doesn't," then the arguments from the other thread come into play. It's function is useful for certain sorts of quests, but it's nature is derivative and overdone. I think the only quest where it was actually used well was Romanticar, honestly, because it was used as a device to alter the perspective of the quest, and constantly changing perspective was actually relevant to the narrative. I mean, the implication in Tozzle is that Penji has brain damage and that's why she hears suggesters. Other quests, like Cutebold Slaughter Fest or Fortune's Call just have the players interact with the character without any specific item in that actual world.

When people start a new quest that has an orb item, it makes many of the readers groan, because it implies that you are an uncreative fuck, whether or not that is true. It certainly shows that you didn't exert the minimum effort it would take to have another reason for the same effect in your world.
>>
No. 15890 ID: 2563d4

(Moving this from PONIES because the PONIES thread is actually mostly good.)

>>15882
>implying there isn't an order of magnitude difference between IRC derping and "HAY GUISE THIS IS MY LAZUREK HERE IS A PICTURE I DREW OF HIM FUCKING A CHARACTER FROM THE QUEST THAT I DREW AS FANART FOR THAT QUEST"
But hey if it really chafes you then some of them got illustrated in an oC posted in >>/draw/ . (None of them are interacting with Penji.)
>>
No. 15893 ID: bf1e7e

>>15890

>implying there isn't an order of magnitude difference between IRC derping and "HAY GUISE THIS IS MY LAZUREK

>Implying that THIS IS MY LAZUREK ever came up

See, that's the thing you're not getting. The river lazurek isn't my murrsona at all, it was originally just a faceless dude with a penis before Lucid reminded me 'no humans in the setting' so I made it a River Lazurek because A: About the same size as a human so it was an easy edit in the first picture and B: No face.

So, all in all, there IS an order of magnitude in difference between this and the tozzlesonas that 'aren't worth calling people out for,' but it is neither in the direction nor manner that you seem to think it is.

Besides, my murrsona is a taurdigrade.

Wait, it just occurred to me. Are you just projecting all of this because you're mad that somebody drew porn of your waifu with some random other character? That's some seriously Sephirothluvr262646-style crazy right there.
>>
No. 15894 ID: 2563d4

>>15893
>The river lazurek isn't my murrsona at all
I am reasonably sure it came up somewhere in the fanart thread where they were posted that it was, but fine.

>it is neither in the direction nor manner that you seem to think it is.
Great. Fine. My point that there are OCs of quest races stands either way, and the phrase "call out" was a bad choice of words because the intent was to avoid stirring up stupid drama with people on IRC being upset I told the wider site they came up with quest-race-sonas and instead here I am getting stupid drama with you. You who I explicitly picked as a concrete example to support the claim since I kind of figured from your fanart postings that you weren't exactly shamed by the premise or anything.

>hurr u mad because waifu
Uh, no. If I were mad about that there's plenty of other Aggeia porn I would be bawling about for impuning her purity or whatnot.
>>
No. 15895 ID: bf1e7e

>I am reasonably sure it came up somewhere in the fanart thread where they were posted that it was, but fine.

People have said that, but none of them were me. I just didn't care about people saying it when they weren't citing it as an example of 'bad' OC shenanigans. =V

>If I were mad about that there's plenty of other Aggeia porn I would be bawling about for impuning her purity or whatnot.

I don't think most of the aggeia porn is with any specifically-drawn character, which is the sort of thing the sephirothfan2536236972-type folks don't really care about =V
>>
No. 15896 ID: e3f578

I know there's unlikable people on the site but I don't think we have anyone that is "sephirothfan321651" bad.
>>
No. 15898 ID: 1854db

If there's anyone we should be angry about drawing their self-insert screwing quest characters, it's MrQ. His even has a bunch of abilities stolen from anime and shit.
>>
No. 15899 ID: 39a1fc

>>15893
Good job at blowing a fuse about some harmless comment and spouting ridiculous theories about waifus.
I mean image-board are full of buttmad idiots, but you're really something.
>>
No. 15900 ID: 2563d4

>>15898
That is not the discussion that went on here. (Note past tense; I don't really have anything to dispute with Seal's last post.)
>>
No. 15901 ID: 2563d4

>>15899
Good job at supporting Seal's notion that he has a hatedom out to harass him when he posts by getting unnecessarily offended on my behalf.
>>
No. 15902 ID: e3f578

>>15898
Hardly anyone gives a shit about hating on MrQ. Everything Passive-aggressive with that guy, I'm guessing because he's a friendly motherfucker from what I've seen of his posts.
Seal is like this guy everyone wants to hate on though. It's the popular thing to do. It's the bee's knees. People are just dying to find the next excuse to hate on Seal. It's a fucking pattern.
>>
No. 15903 ID: 1854db

>>15902
Well to be honest I think MrQ is a cool guy, despite the lameness of his character's concept and his inability to keep his quests going.

Seal's just incredibly rude and confrontational. Oh yeah and hateful. Very hateful.
>>
No. 15905 ID: bf1e7e

>>15903

Nah, I'm not hateful at all. You hating me =/= me being hateful.
>>
No. 15906 ID: 1854db

>>15905
Saying that someone should go kill themselves because they are whining too much is pretty hateful, Seal.
>>
No. 15908 ID: bf1e7e

>>15906

Actually I was pre-empting the end of a rant we had all heard before, but sure go right ahead thinking that.

Cirr and I are friends anyway =V
>>
No. 15910 ID: 1854db

>>15908
[2010-10-25 19:23:42] <Love_Drifter> I'm just not going to coddle somebody throwing a fit about WAAAAH NOTHING MATTERS
[2010-10-25 19:24:04] <Love_Drifter> If you can't determine your own purpose in life you are free to stop living
[2010-10-25 19:26:17] <Love_Drifter> If anyone else started talking about whiny nihilist bullshit I would treat them the same way: As non-people
[2010-10-25 19:26:53] <Love_Drifter> I don't WANT him to but if he wants to that's his prerogative
[2010-10-25 19:26:53] <Love_Drifter> yes
[2010-10-25 19:26:56] <Love_Drifter> as non-people
[2010-10-25 19:27:01] <Love_Drifter> I am not devaluing people
[2010-10-25 19:27:08] <Love_Drifter> I am devaluing sub-humans posing as people

I like logs.
>>
No. 15912 ID: abcbff

>>15910
Your holding a grudge on the behalf of someone who doesn't even care about the whole thing at this point is kind of sad.
>>
No. 15913 ID: 1854db

>>15912
What, I can't hate someone for being terrible? If Cirr has gotten over it, good for him. I can't stand that type of thinking though and thus I despise Seal as a person.

I mean I pasted that just to point out that he was being hateful and not just 'skipping to the end'. This isn't about Cirr. It's about Seal.
>>
No. 15915 ID: bf1e7e

>>15913

>I mean I pasted that just to point out that he was being hateful

Well if you want to do that you should post an instance of me, you know, being hateful. Also noteworthy: Cutting out the entire context of all of my statements (in yet another pathetic attempt to make me look bad) doesn't exactly make you look any more reasonable in this.
>>
No. 15918 ID: e3f578

>>15910
That isn't hateful; it's just kinda doushey. And a lot of people here are douches here, I think like 82% in some form, so it's rather insignificant.

Yeah Seal is a douche. So are you and you and him and me and that motherfucker over there. ESPECIALLY that motherfucker over that, that fucking douche.
>>
No. 15920 ID: f5fe2f

>>/questdis/347236
>Do you honestly believe that the only reason we don't go spiraling off into space is that the earth wants to hold us close?
Gravity is the force of the earth holding us close. I don't see why the earth would do that if it didn't want to.
>>
No. 15921 ID: 31cb7a

>>15918
>That isn't hateful
It's not exactly the height of caring to say that someone who is supposedly your friend is now below your consideration because he's gotten fucked up for whatever reason. In before context, etc. -- if the context is really so important, then post it.
>>
No. 15923 ID: 1854db

>>15921
That was a while ago.

The context is just after he told Cirr to kill himself and Cirr left. I was telling him that he was being horrible, and about half of that was responding to me. The context is pretty much irrelevant. I cut out what other people were saying because they were being a bit mean too and I didn't want to stir up drama about THEM.
>>
No. 15924 ID: 1854db

Oh, and saying someone is a non-person for being nihilistic is pretty hateful, I'd say.
>>
No. 15927 ID: 2563d4

>>15912
In during 1854db is dumb again.

>>15921
Telling Cirr to man up and snap out of it was probably the best thing to do.
>>
No. 15928 ID: 838f5e

>white knighting an assburger like Seal
Stay classy tgchan, no wonder half the site is childish trolling with an attitude like that.
>>
No. 15930 ID: bf1e7e

>>15927

>Oh, and saying someone is a non-person for being nihilistic is pretty hateful

My cat isn't a person and I don't hate him.
>>
No. 15931 ID: 28e94e

In my experience the vast majority of the hate towards Seal is either people being butthurt over his moderation, or people hating on him because everybody else is doing it.
>>
No. 15932 ID: 2563d4

>>15928
>Implying I'm white-knighting a guy I argue with half the time, including just upthread
hurr confirmation bias
>>
No. 15934 ID: e3f578

>>15930
Do you threaten/joke at him regularly about beating him or using him as a football to shut the fuck up? You don't have to follow through at all. Same with anyone else with I cat I'm asking that question.

I'm just curious if that's irrational or awful on my part, I'm just messing around with him and the fact my cat's annoying as fuck. Though I do in fact reckon he may have good aerodynamics should I punt him like a foot ball.

Also, is it possible to be nihilistic without being annoying, hateful, wrong or anything? Just that it's nice nothing having any meaning whatsoever, possibly in addition to having a hedonistic attitude?
>>
No. 15935 ID: 2563d4

>>15933
>in which case telling him to "man up" would be especially retarded instead of just the normal sexist and conforming kind of retarded
Brits don't tend to go in for a culture of therapy and group hugs, so it pretty much is the conforming kind of retarded. "Stop being depressed, you great big sissy."
>>
No. 15936 ID: e3f578

>>15935
Real Brit's work out their issues Fight Club style. Possibly with the addition of tea, crumpets, and duels that end in death.
>>
No. 15937 ID: 0d7a83

>>15936
>duels that end in death.

Wait, what? Your telling me there's another kind? Oh it's just like those bloody foreigners to mess up our traditions!
>>
No. 15939 ID: e3f578

You know those ones that are duels with fists or those weird rapiers with tiny plastic spheres made for fencing? Those kind of duels usually don't end in fatalities
>>
No. 15941 ID: 049dfa

I'm really only making this post to find out my fabulous new PONY NAME and ID number.
>>
No. 15943 ID: 0d7a83

>>15939
I thought those were just morning warm-ups, like yoga for men.
>>
No. 15944 ID: 2563d4

>>15941
It appears to be somewhat startled.
>>
No. 15946 ID: f5fe2f

>>15931
I honestly have no idea what people have against him.

>>15937
Yu-Gi-Oh duels don't usually end in death.

>>15941
You are Prince Music Bringer.
I assume you will be bringing the music, your Highness?
Or will you merely be bringing music by Prince?
>>
No. 15947 ID: 049dfa

>>15945

I've been running the radio since I found out, bro.
>>
No. 15948 ID: 1854db

>>15930
Saying your cat isn't a person would be factually correct. But hey, you know Algus from FFT? How he called people animals? That's the kind of attitude that you are presenting. Saying someone is sub-human or not a person means that they have no rights. That they aren't worth anything. That you can tell them to go kill themselves when they are in a vulnerable state of mind and you won't care if they do it. Nobody else seemed to realize this but telling someone to kill themselves when they are in a self-depreciating mood means you hold partial responsibility for their death if they go through with it. It is a malicious act. It shows you don't care if they live or die. It's hateful. Or at least, that's what I call it. The lack of any concern for someone else, and an active role in making their life worse. I dunno, maybe this is another time when I'm using a word incorrectly.

So... Lawyerdog posted that log, and reading what you said after I left confused me a little. You weren't mad at him, yet you treated him like he was sub-human, and in fact SAID that he was. Does this mean you don't have empathy for people in general? Are you a sociopath?

Also I don't see how Cirr was being hateful. He said he hated people, but unless he is actually treating people like shit he just despises people as a general concept. There is a difference between being nihilistic or misanthropic and actually treating other people with hate. Nowhere in that conversation did Cirr put down any specific person. He was putting down humanity. Oh, he did put himself down though. There's that.
>>
No. 15949 ID: e3f578

>Does this mean you don't have empathy for people in general? Are you a sociopath?

Whoa dude chill out brah, you're making way too many conclusions too fast. You're throwing around psychological conditions at people without real knowledge of how they act or think, just what they say on the internet, and that's NO GOOD. And making far too many assumptions about a person's individual feelings with improper evidence.
>>
No. 15951 ID: 2563d4

>>15948
>But hey, you know Algus from FFT?
No. Pick an example that isn't from a shitty JRPG you horrendous weaboo.
>Nobody else seemed to realize this but telling someone to kill themselves when they are in a self-depreciating mood means you hold partial responsibility for their death if they go through with it.
Nobody "realizes" this because it is not a thing which is true.
>>
No. 15952 ID: 8211e6

>>15949
Well, I mean, what do you expect from Shiitake?
>>
No. 15954 ID: 3e6377

I'd really rather appreciate it if you guys stopped using what I did over half a year ago as an example. Just saying.
>>
No. 15956 ID: e3f578

>>15952
That's his name? Well goddamn son put it the namebox so I can properly address you without having to switch to Ponychan or referring to you as numbers. Otherwise, don't have a fucking name at all
>>
No. 15958 ID: 049dfa

>>15951

Hey now FFT, isn't shitty.

>>15948

>Does this mean you don't have empathy for people in general? Are you a sociopath?

Nah, I have all of the empathy. I just prefer not to treat people as spineless weaklings until they show themselves to be.

>But hey, you know Algus from FFT? How he called people animals?

Algus was calling people animals based on the circumstances of their birth. I call people sub-human based on their conscious disavowal of the things that make humanity great. Not the same.

>Saying someone is sub-human or not a person means that they have no rights. That they aren't worth anything.

No, that's just your extrapolation. One can be sub-human and not be an animal. 2 is less than 3 but is still more than 1.

>The lack of any concern for someone else, and an active role in making their life worse.

That sure is what happened.
>>
No. 15959 ID: e3f578

Just because something might be a 1 on the humanity list doesn't mean they can't be a total bro though.

Dog's are total bros if they're not chihuahuas or other purse doggies. I know a dog that instead of knowing how to shake he knows to BUNP fists/paws instead. Top tier bro dog, dawg.
>>
No. 15962 ID: ba573c

Arguments are stupid and I wish everyone would get along forever.
That is all.
>>
No. 15963 ID: f5fe2f

>>15954
Then do something similar now so we'll have a more recent example to use.

>>15962
Arguments help people to share ideas and discover which has greatest merit. Without them we'd be stuck with the first idea we ever encountered on any subject.
>>
No. 15965 ID: ba573c

>Arguments help people to share ideas and discover which has greatest merit.
No, discussion and debate do those things.
Arguments make everyone angry and/or uncomfortable.
>>
No. 15967 ID: 788dee

>>15965
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument

ar·gu·ment
[ahr-gyuh-muhnt]
–noun
1.
an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2.
a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3.
a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.

argument (ˈɑːɡjʊmənt)

— n
1. a quarrel; altercation
2. a discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate: the argument on birth control will never be concluded
3. ( sometimes plural ) a point or series of reasons presented to support or oppose a proposition
4. a summary of the plot or subject of a book, etc
5. logic
a. a process of deductive or inductive reasoning that purports to show its conclusion to be true
b. formally, a sequence of statements one of which is the conclusion and the remainder the premises
6. logic an obsolete name for the middle term of a syllogism
7. maths
a. an element to which an operation, function, predicate, etc, applies, esp the independent variable of a function
b. the amplitude of a complex number

Main Entry: ar·gu·ment
Function: noun
1 : a reason or the reasoning given for or against a matter under discussion —compare EVIDENCE, PROOF
2 : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing; especially : ORAL ARGUMENT —see also CLOSING ARGUMENT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
An argument in logic is a set of one or more meaningful declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another sentence known as the conclusion. Argument may also refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_(disambiguation)

>Arguments make everyone angry and/or uncomfortable.
You sound like an invertebrate bitch princess.
>>
No. 15968 ID: 2563d4

>>15967
>1. a quarrel; altercation
Oh hey there's the meaning that applies to Internet Arguments.
>>
No. 15969 ID: 788dee

>>15968
>2.
>a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
>3.
>a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.
>2. a discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate: the argument on birth control will never be concluded
>3. ( sometimes plural ) a point or series of reasons presented to support or oppose a proposition
>1 : a reason or the reasoning given for or against a matter under discussion —compare EVIDENCE, PROOF
>2 : the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing; especially : ORAL ARGUMENT —see also CLOSING ARGUMENT
Oh hey there's the meanings that apply to internet arguments until some butthurt bitch princess has to label the entire discussion stupid because he can't handle anyone disagreeing with him.
>>
No. 15970 ID: ea8769

>>15954
>implying you don't still flip your shit at the drop of a hat
>>
No. 15972 ID: 3e6377

>implying implications
>>
No. 15974 ID: 12afc3

>>15972
Didn't you quit the internet forever less than two month ago?
With extra embarrassing thread and all.
>>
No. 15976 ID: 2563d4

>>15974
What, you mean this one, this one right here, where he doesn't even do the "humanity sucks" spiel that Seal picked up on with his "sub-human" comment: >>14383
Oops I accidentally linked the explanation and apology, maybe we shouldn't eagerly rake people over the hot coals of the Internet for not owning time machines.
>>
No. 15996 ID: ba573c

>>15967
>>15969
Okay gosh. I'm not technically correct. You win.
I just meant I don't like it when people FIGHT. I am sort of a complete pussy when it comes to this.

>You sound like an invertebrate bitch princess.
Yeah something like that. Sorry. I know I should just grin and bear it but it always sort of upsets me when people I like fight with each other.
>>
No. 16058 ID: 913ca1
File 130763954804.png - (65.25KB , 356x356 , argh.png )
16058

Reaver is back...


Well shit.
>>
No. 16059 ID: 2563d4

>>16058
Oh, right, and since he hasn't stirred up a drama shitstorm yet, you thought you'd better do that yourself.
>>
No. 16061 ID: 2eac65

>>16058
Stop that. Whatever your issues with him are, there's no reason to go heckling him about it months after the last time you've seen him. That will only increase your hatred, which will make things even more unpleasant for everyone involved.

It's better to respond to what he's doing now. That will avert needless troublemaking and give people a reason and opportunity to be nicer to each other, even if they made mistakes before.
>>
No. 16064 ID: 0d7a83

>>16058
I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DRAMA AND INCEST.
>>
No. 16065 ID: f5fe2f

No real drama so far.

Technically no real incest either, though it's pretty obvious that's where it's headed.
>>
No. 16066 ID: 788dee

>>16065
IRRELEVANT. REAVER IS ALWAYS CAUSING DRAMA AND I'M ALWAYS TROLLING. REGARDLESS OF FACT. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO MATTER WHAT. FINAL DESTINATION.
>>
No. 16067 ID: e3f578

Son, do you realize how many fucks I give?
Precisely zero fucks, count with me now. ZERO fucks.
>>
No. 16068 ID: 788dee

>>16067
OH YEAH? WELL I GIVE EVEN FEWER FUCKS.

ALSO THE FUCKS I GIVE ARE FLYING.

AND THEY FLIP DUCKS.
>>
No. 16069 ID: 3f70c1

Between writing long winded posts about whatever and trying to stir up drama one would think Beakie could find the 20min to draw an update for his actual quest.
>>
No. 16070 ID: 788dee

>>16069
Actually between writing long winded posts about whatever and trying to stir up drama Beakie should find the 20 USD to pay me to draw an update for his actual quest.

We can vote for it! Put your hand up if you agree with me. Good. Now put your hand up if you don't disagree with me. Excellent.

HOORAY.
>>
No. 16071 ID: 3f70c1

>>16070
>implying you could handle a commission
>>
No. 16072 ID: 788dee

>>16071
Well you can't handle me.

Also your sexual orientation is nonstandard and you are of an ethnic minority.
>>
No. 16073 ID: f16229

>>16072
YOU'RE DOING RACISM WRONG TRY AGAIN.
>>
No. 16076 ID: 788dee

>>16073
YOU HAVE HIGHER LEVELS OF MELANIN THAN ME AND YOU REGULARLY ACQUIRE TELEVISIONS AND BICYCLES IN AN UNLAWFUL MANNER. YOU ALSO FAVOR CITRULLUS LANATUS AND GALLUS GALLUS DOMESTICUS PREPARED BY SUBMERGING IT IN HOT OIL OR FAT OVER OTHER FOOD ITEMS.

YOU ALSO REGULARLY PERFORM FELLATIO ON OTHER MALES.

YOU MAY ALSO BE FROM OUTER SPACE, BUT I'M NOT INTOLERANT SO IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.
>>
No. 16078 ID: e3f578

>YOU ALSO REGULARLY PERFORM FELLATIO ON OTHER MALES.

Don't worry it's not gay if you did it for money, it's debatable.
>>
No. 16079 ID: 049dfa

The funny thing is that Reaver has actually been back for months.
>>
No. 16080 ID: 2eac65

>>16079
And only now have people gotten into one of those nasty arguments they hate. Because of how they reacted to him.

Not to anything he did. Just to him.
>>
No. 16086 ID: 2563d4

>>16080
So, when do we burn 913ca1 at a stake?
>>
No. 16087 ID: e3f578

>>16085
the big eyes and brows are just adorable~
You know it's been a while since I've had ponychan on and mine is just so fucking meek I wanna give it a carrot and pet it's nose
>>
No. 16090 ID: 0d7a83

>>16076
ARE YOU TRYING TO SUGGEST THAT I BELONG TO A SPECIFIC SUB-SET OF THE HOMO SAPIEN SPECIES COMMONLY KNOWN FOR POSSESSING A HIGHER CONCENTRATION OF FAST-TWITCH MUSCLE MATTER ALLOWING THEM TO OFTEN DOMINATE SHORT DISTANCE PROFESSIONAL SPRINTING EVENTS?
>>
No. 16094 ID: f5fe2f

>>16079
But nobody knew until now, except people who had no strong negative feelings on the matter.
>>
No. 16097 ID: 2eac65

>>16086
Overreacting to legitimate grievances is the problem, not the solution, partially because it doesn't do anything to solve said grievances.
>>
No. 16123 ID: 9cb4b3
File 130783162124.png - (365.28KB , 763x777 , south park rednecks.png )
16123

>Wait now, who's that author?

>That there's Reaver.

>You mean that feller that did that ruby quest thing back on /tg/?

>Nawp, that's Weaver. Reaver just shits his britches and calls it an update.
>>
No. 16124 ID: e3f578

>>16123
That was a crazy episode. Kind of sad too.
>>
No. 16138 ID: 637408

How has Reaver been back? Lurker suggestor, or..? Not a hater, just genuinely curious.
>>
No. 16139 ID: a56060

>>16138
This quest is his:
http://quest.lv/kusaba/quest/res/309592.html
>>
No. 16142 ID: f5fe2f

>>16123
Criticizing Reaver for the quality of individual updates is kind of retarded. His art's good, his dialogue is consistent with the characters. If you're going to talk shit, at least do it a bit more accurately.
>>
No. 16147 ID: 383006

>>16145
I WILL PLAY YOU AT MARIO PARTY RIGHT NOW!
>>
No. 16148 ID: 4183c9

>>16145
>VIDEO GAMES IS TWO WORDS OKAY.
I don't know about Reaver's native tongue, but I can tell you that in Finnish there are these things called "composite words". If you write a composite word as two words, it's generally a very bad grammatical error. Maybe in English "fatherland" and "father land" count as the same thing (although I doubt it), but writing the Finnish word for "fatherland" as "father land" is as retarded as writing "president" as "presi dent", but not because it's wrong, but because writing the Finnish word for "fatherland" as two words actually changes the meaning. "Fatherland" means "fatherland", as in the geographic area of the nation. The same word written as two words in Finnish would mean "father's land", as in a piece of land that belongs to your father. It's also the standard for the retarded skinheads here to be illiterate twats who (in Finnish) write "defenders of the fatherland" - which they consider themselves to be - as the equivalent of "deffenders of the father land". To wit, they're doubly retarded to the power of two. Squared. Plus two.

But basically writing a composite as two separate words in the wrong context is as retarded as hacking any single word in English into two. And in Finnish, writing the Finnish word for "video game" as two separate words makes about as much sense as writing "vi deo ga mes" in English. Or "English" as "Eng lish".
>>
No. 16149 ID: 2563d4

>>16148
That's a nice bunch of irrelevant waffle you've pasted there given that the quest is in English and in English there is no such composite word "videogames":
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/british/?q=videogames
>>
No. 16151 ID: 4183c9

>>16149
Half of the native English speakers can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're", "there", "their" and "they're", "lose" and "loose", can't spell "thief", "weird", "rogue", "rouge", "deity", etc. correctly and you're demanding perfection from those with English as a second or third language in a word that does not contradict the context with or without the space, lashing out with smug condescension at an example of why a non-native English speaker might have an inherent reason for writing certain pairs of words as a single word.

Great job there, Robert.
>>
No. 16152 ID: 4183c9

>>16150
YOU ARE A DOG WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT GRAMMAR
>>
No. 16154 ID: 4183c9

>>16153
I was replying to >>16149 and >a nice bunch of irrelevant waffle.
>>
No. 16155 ID: 28e94e

You're both wrong.

In English, "video game" and "videogame" have the exact same meaning.
>>
No. 16156 ID: c97fbd

>>16154
Go suck some Ålander cock.
>>
No. 16158 ID: 4183c9

>>16156
You sound like a Swede who's still butthurt about losing a game of ice hockey. 6-1.

Sådant är livet.
>>
No. 16159 ID: 2563d4

>>16154
Finnish is not relevant to a discussion about English words, at least outside the realm of etymology, which is not the topic at hand.
Hope that clears up how your particular waffle is irrelevant! Have a nice day!
>>
No. 16160 ID: 4183c9

>>16159
Waffles are even more irrelevant WHEN POINTING OUT THAT NOT ALL LANGUAGES WRITE EVERY FUCKING WORD SEPARATELY, WHICH, GIVEN THE INCONSISTENT-AT-BEST GRAMMAR OF THE MAJORITY OF NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS, MAKES WRITING CERTAIN WORDS WITHOUT THE SPACE MORE LOGICAL THAN NOT.

AND UNLESS IT RAINS, IT WON'T BE A NICE DAY SO YOU CAN TAKE YOUR FOREIGN INSULTS AND FUCK YOURSELF IN THE ASS WITH THEM. SIDEWAYS. I'd suggest you ski into a cunt, but you'd probably think "ski" is a US state.
>>
No. 16161 ID: 2563d4

>>16160
There is nothing "logical" about following the grammatical trends of the wrong language just because you're a filthy European mainlander, sitting there in your revolting socialist paradise and stating the bleeding obvious, namely that compound nouns exist. Honestly, it's like you think the Internet were entirely ignorant of the glorious German tongue, rather than worshipping it for contributions to linguistics such as "Rechtsschutzversicherungsgesellschaften".

But we had buckets of rain on Airstrip One today, so if you're lucky some of it will reach you soon.
>>
No. 16162 ID: 0d7a83

You're all idiots. It's spelt 'VIDYAGAEMS'.

Morons.
>>
No. 16164 ID: 15b51b

I like "Bideo Games"
>>
No. 16165 ID: e3f578

entertainment software
>>
No. 16166 ID: a76064

>>16165
But what is a tainment and how do I enter?
>>
No. 16167 ID: f5fe2f

>>16148
We have composite words in English too. And more and more two-word phrases become composite as they become more common in the parlance. "Videogames" may well be considered the correct way some day. This is merely a case of Lawyer Dog being a butt.

>>16149
Cambridge is faggots that hate change.

>>16151
This is indeed true.

>>16161
Every language has some advantages to it. English is made of bits of other languages, and is adapted over time to become the best language possible. Therefore, refraining from incorporating other languages into English is directly counter to linguistic progress.
>>
No. 16169 ID: f5fe2f

Also I like "vidya". No "games" in any form, it's superfluous.
>>
No. 16170 ID: 2563d4

>>16169
And that's why I'm glad you hold no particular stock in the development of the language.
>>
No. 16173 ID: 4183c9

>>16161
There's more logic to following a "wrong" language's grammar in English than following the most common displays of punctuation, capitalization, grammar and spelling of the majority of native English speakers on the internet.
>>
No. 16174 ID: 2563d4

>>16173
Good job nobody's advocating the latter, then! Are you going to approach any relevant contributions to the argument this week?
>>
No. 16175 ID: 4183c9

>>16174
Nobody's advocating the latter? Do you live in an ivory tower under a rock and wear rose-colored goggles on your covered eyes attached to the head buried in sand? Because the latter has its numerous advocates. Their most common argument being "but it dosent' mater becuase u uderstate waht sye n e wey".

>Are you going to approach any relevant contributions to the argument this week?
I've offered a plausible explanation for something mentioned off-hand (but still valid enough).
All you've contributed to is the growing mass of smug, condescending pricks whose only achievements are hindering discussion on the internet.
>>
No. 16177 ID: 2563d4

>>16175
Oh, right, you're arguing against people who aren't even in this thread to have an excuse to talk about Finland! That's mighty useful of you.

Admittedly Cruxador has shown up since, but then he's like the common cold in that regard.
>>
No. 16178 ID: e3f578
 

Is Stephan Fry's opinion on the matter have any relevance or strength in this conversation?
>>
No. 16179 ID: 2563d4

>>16178
I believe the appropriate quote is that Fry is "a stupid person's idea of what an intelligent person looks like". The trick of Qi is that he's there to be affectionately mocked with his privately-schooled airs as much as Alan is for his played-up dopeyness.

(The one that really annoys me in that is the implication that the less/fewer distinction---which conveys no semantic meaning beyond redundant agreement with context and thus really doesn't matter that much---is equally as meaningless as infer/imply---which are different words and mean different things and are not interchangable just because they sound similar.)

And while we're appealing to authority, and Fry is banging on his originality-is-automatically-good fallacy, have a quote from Chuck Jones:
"We must not confuse distortion with innovation; distortion is useless change, art is beneficial change."

Yes, I just started a sentence with a conjunction. I tend to gratuitously split infinitives all over the place as well. If you think I'm arguing a Radio 4 viewpoint you're apparently too stupid to follow a very simple point (Finland is irrelevant [and full of proto-communists]).
>>
No. 16180 ID: a41aaf

>>16178
I don't quite agree. There's a world of difference between know the the rules and breaking them to deliver additional contextual information, and not knowing the rules and breaking them because you're illiterate window-licker.
>>
No. 16181 ID: e3f578

>>16180
Where do those that are literate, know the rules, but break them because they don't give a shit enough about them beyond when your forced to by situation in professional fields?

Really I just wanted to know whether or not Fry's thoughts had much merit. I guess he is a tad "intelligent from the perspective of the unintelligent but average in the others." I like the video mainly because of the shapes and his fucking voice. Jesus Christ it's like fucking rain and to hear him ramble is enjoyable, you don't give a fuck about the subject, just let the guy ramble in his calming voice. But I do feel like he has a few decent points in there. Not the shit about originality or anything but rather the whole pretentious deal of the matter and the talk of professionalism.

It just seems that to me, beyond getting someone to understand you, I can't get the sentiment of the importance of language rules or how the notion that the common argument noted above
>"but it dosent' mater becuase u uderstate waht sye n e wey"
is offensive or utterly idiotic beyond the simple fact the argument is presented in a obnoxious manner simply to make the counterargument more in the right. I mean, yeah okay, that can get fucking annoying. But not because out of lack of respect to language and it's rules, but just that it itself is as pretentious as those who ARE incessant about grammar, plus it's ugly.
>>
No. 16182 ID: 2563d4

>>16181
>Where do those that are literate, know the rules, but break them because they don't give a shit enough about them beyond when your forced to by situation in professional fields?

Where do they what? Did your brain overheat halfway through the sentence at the notion that it might be polite to put in a modicum of effort when communicating with people?
>>
No. 16183 ID: e3f578

>>16182
What no, I got caught up in trying to think out my argument I forgot and didn't notice some mistakes later.

I meant where do those people lie.

Sorry, my points were more about incessant grammar rules, not when part of an entire sentence is left out by mistake. Of course motherfuckers are going to get confused by that.
>>
No. 16184 ID: e3f578

>>16182
oh and where do people that just forget shit lie, not out of active ignorance, illiteracy or nonchalance? I mean there are shades of this shit.
>>
No. 16186 ID: 049dfa

I also like 'vidya,' because some 'video games' are not games. And I don't want to bother typing out 'video entertainment software.'
>>
No. 16190 ID: f5fe2f

>>16175
>"but it dosent' mater becuase u uderstate waht sye n e wey".
Well, that is a legitimate viewpoint. If the text is understandable, and the intent of language is to be understood, is this manner of writing truly erroneous? I would argue that it makes text less readily easy to understand and thus it is, but I also recognize that allowing such a writing style to prevail encourages rapid evolution of the language and thus will more rapidly cause English to become a more efficient language than it currently is.

>>16178
He talked a lot without saying much. I don't disagree with most of his points. I do disagree with his demonization of pedantry to the extent that he did so; certainly some distinctions are rather pointless, but to avoid aiding a person who uses an entirely wrong word or something like that is merely discourteous.

>>16179
>I believe the appropriate quote is that Fry is "a stupid person's idea of what an intelligent person looks like"
That may well be. I personally didn't perceive him, at least in this, to be discernibly more or less intelligent than most folks, just much more verbose.

>>16180
I agree with this, but I would like to point out that even without consciously understanding every rule, cultures and subcultures tend to develop dialects based on their cultural context and values. Thus a manner of speech may convey considerable information that a more formal dialect wouldn't, even if the speaker does not consciously consider that.

>>16181
So long as their meaning is clear, I would not consider that to be particularly reprehensible. Such persons are most likely using a dialect they are used to, and among others of the community in which they normally write, their less formally correct dialect is probably both easier to understand and more expressive.
>>
No. 16210 ID: 835a2d

Is anyone else even mildly annoyed by these text quests PRETENDING to be image quests by sticking all the text into a "stylish" image? As if it makes it any better?

Isn't the whole point of images to convey a lot of shit with little trouble? I don't understand what is gained by sticking all that text in an image you have to expand to read. On 4chan, sure, because it's a nice way to avoid text limitations. But here, I've seen some pretty fucking huge updates, so I don't think we have that (or if we do, it's absolutely ridiculous) so what is the goddamn point?!

I've defended text quests before, but this shit is just... pointless!
>>
No. 16211 ID: 2563d4

>>16210
It's a way to make text quests even less pleasant to read. Not only is the writing bad (this is a safe assumption, since text quests are the lazy man's zero-effort wannabe quests), but now you've got to put up with someone else's choice of font, size, rendering, and colours. Oh, and click to expand it.

Despite that people still seem to be suggesting, which is some kind of proof that there is no lower limit on the quality of things bored people with nothing better to do will burn time on.

Some of them even participate on arguments on the Internets!
>>
No. 16212 ID: 5bccc6

I'm looking at the map of /quest/ somewhere around here and I think I can get a clear enough picture. My question is pretty much unrelated to anything but it's the most general thread on /meep/ I could find.

Anyway, me and a friend of mine had an argument about Internet access in the US.
His claim was that you can find a wi-fi network almost anywhere and that areas with no 3G are virtually unheard of. My point was that population density in the US, as well as anywhere else, is uneven and an area might not be 3G-covered if it's not cost-effective for an ISP.
I'm not talking about price, just plain technical availability.

So, which one of us was right?
>>
No. 16213 ID: 3392ab

>>16210
I dunno, I kinda liked the way Uplift was doing it. It makes it feel like it's not such a long read, if that makes any sense. It's sort of like how people just post pictures of creepypasta instead of typing it out, I guess.
>>
No. 16214 ID: 28e94e

>>16210
I only see one such quest. And yes, it is annoying as fuck. At least he has the decency to break it up into multiple posts though.
>>
No. 16216 ID: 2563d4

>>16215
>cracked
Oh you fucker. I had stuff to do.
>>
No. 16217 ID: f5fe2f

>>16212
If you've got Verizon, he's right. The only time I've ever had trouble connecting to 3G with Verizon was in a gully in the middle of nowhere. As soon as I drove out of the gully (but was still in the middle of a bunch of mountains and forest and shit, with no town for about 30 miles, and that town having a population of a few hundred, tops) I had 3G again.
>>
No. 16218 ID: e3f578

>>16216
Keep tabs on the latest interesting articles and never read the links at the end of articles to point towards other articles and the problem will be significantly less than tvtropes
>>
No. 16220 ID: e3f578

you live on the east side fuck yeah you basically have internet
west side is fucked
>>
No. 16226 ID: f5fe2f

Er to clarify,
>ever
means "ever, within the last few years since 3G became a prevalent thing". Obviously back in the days when cell phones were just for calling people, you couldn't get 3G anywhere.

>>16220
California has plenty of internet. Even in non-California parts of the west, you usually get decent internet in towns. Not like Korea and Japan's crazy speeds, but good enough to do business.
>>
No. 16237 ID: 2563d4

>>16226
Wow. You're actually going to disregard Verizon's own coverage map in favour of your own anecdot---
Wait. Where the fuck did that post go?
>>
No. 16238 ID: 2563d4

>>16214
And now he's doing it in the ITQ thread, wheeeee.
>>
No. 16247 ID: 049dfa

>>16213

>It's sort of like how people just post pictures of creepypasta instead of typing it out, I guess.

They're doing that because they're lazy.
>>
No. 16257 ID: 804d70

>>347716
You just don't seem to get that the Internet is a public medium, do you.
>>
No. 16258 ID: 44f8dd

>>347644
The sites in question would most likely not know of Bite's existence, nor of his relation to this site, or of this site's relation to me, and thus that link would not be a factor. You don't seem to understand. I have no objection to my FA being shared, nor it being put up publically on this board. My only objection was to putting it up under a name that could be traced by a bunch of internet detectives, which has been fixed, and my wishes have been respected. I am happy. That is all. Thank you.
>>
No. 16259 ID: f5fe2f

>>347716
If you put something in a public place, it is not reasonable to get all mad about it when that thing is publicly viewed. That's like wandering around on a public street naked and getting mad at people for seeing you naked. You can't expect that anything you flaunt in public will remain private.
>>
No. 16260 ID: 2563d4

>>347716
No, deary. That you've hit a wall in your reasoning that you don't want to explore beyond, instead stonewalling your mental process with "but it's obvious", does not make me an asshole.

I'm maybe an asshole in that I'm not being all sunshine and flowers in leading you into the glorious world of actually thinking through your own goddamn opinions and making sure they make any bloody sense, but that's a pretty common kind of asshole-ness because unfortunately very, very few people have the near-infinite patience required to not become somewhat acerbic when being bombarded with stupid.
>>
No. 16261 ID: 1854db

>>347742
Nope, it's more like being a regular at a nude beach, then having someone take pictures of you and post them in other nude beaches. Or on forums related to nude beaches, maybe.

>>347745
Cool strawman bro! I've explained my reasoning. Kindof been repeating myself actually! People just keep missing the point. Maybe if I make one post containing everything and in more detail then people will stop doing that!

Or maybe I just haven't been very clear?

>>347739
The internet is a public medium, yes. While I agree that there is no security in obscurity and the fundamental public nature of the internet means that people will probably find links... Disrupting that obscurity is rude. Saying 'You should have seen that coming' isn't a valid excuse. Like I said in >>347646 "Don't hide behind claims that your actions don't matter in the big picture." I understand that yes, eventually people will figure it out and find your stuff on the internet. But making that progress go faster- and exposing someone's obscure stuff to people who might not have taken the time to figure it out on their own- is not a nice thing to do.

Here's another example. Say I found someone's personal gallery, and told them that I had, and they went "Okay you found me but don't spread it around." Would it be rude of me to post it here? I think it would be! I think it would be rude even if I hadn't told them about it and gotten that response! It wouldn't be rude if I had asked them if I could post it and they said yes.

That's the best I can explain my point of view.
>>
No. 16262 ID: 2563d4

>>347746
>straw man
You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

>Here's another example...
...that has nothing to do with the situation at hand. Oh hey, maybe you do have an inkling of what a straw man argument is.

>I think it would be rude even if I hadn't told them about it and gotten that response!
That's nice and all but it's a million miles away from a argument that it is rude since you are not an authority on politeness. And, y'know, you and maybe Squeegy seem to be the only people here advocating that particular line of batshit crazy.
>>
No. 16263 ID: 383006

>>347747
And squeegy isn't even advocating that.

>>347746
Your example isn't what happened because normal people don't assume that stuff is private or secret seeing as how it's posted on a public gallery. This community is pretty decent about not spreading shit around, but you have to know something is a secret to know to keep it in the first place. Posting things on a public gallery site isn't exactly keeping it secret.

I think the issue here is that you seem to think the people here are cavalierly ignoring the wishes of others. The only person who had an actual complaint told a mod and got the name changed in the post. What are you even bitching about?

I use a different name on my FA, but I've posted quest art there. If you search FA for "bitequest" or "bite quest" on FA, you can pretty easily figure it out. If I didn't want that account connected with my name here, I wouldn't have posted any quest art, and would have asked others not to link to me from their accounts.
>>
No. 16264 ID: 44f8dd

>>347751
I am fine with my FA being connected to my name here! I just don't want it connected to my name elsewhere.

Of course, this whole argument is going to be incredibly meta if people DO look and find the link anyway... because of this argument.
>>
No. 16265 ID: 4183c9

>>347756
I don't want my Facebook account linked here or ANYWHERE. Solution? I DON'T HAVE A FAILBOOK ACCOUNT. AT ALL. ALSO FUCK FACEBOOK FOR ALL OTHER REASONS AS WELL. IT'S A DISEASE. A PLAGUE UPON HUMANITY. IT SHOULD NOT EXIST. IT CAN'T EVEN BE AVOIDED WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE AN ACCOUNT. THE FUCKING "LIKE" BUTTONS ARE EVERYWHERE. FUCK YOU, I WANT A BUTTON THAT SAYS "HATE" AND IF YOU PRESS IT THE GUY WHO MADE FACEBOOK GETS A THOUSAND BURNING ANTS UP HIS STUPID ARSE. IF YOU SUPPORT FACEBOOK, YOU SUPPORT STALIN AND HITLER AND THE WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH.

Having a public profile/gallery/whatever and getting your frilly pink panties in twenty separate knots around your microscopic balls when you can't control who finds it or not or links it somewhere or not is like demanding GRAVITY only work when it's not inconvenient for you.

Also if you want to have a FurrYiffinity account AND hang out with people who lynch furries on sight, YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID.
>>
No. 16266 ID: 1854db

>>347747
A straw man is when you misrepresent what the other person is saying in order to easily defeat it. I guess you're right though- that wasn't what you were doing. Ad hominem perhaps? I get the two mixed up in my head sometimes. Well regardless it was pretty silly. And the example I gave is *EXACTLY* the kind of situation I've been thinking about. Someone doesn't want their gallery being spread around, so it's rude to do it without asking.

>>347751
If they're using a different name than they use elsewhere then I don't think it's a stretch to think they might not want it to be public knowledge.

I think people might be overestimating how much I object to this. It's not like I'm asking for the list to be deleted or anything.
>>
No. 16267 ID: 2563d4

>>347759
>Ad hominem perhaps?
Nope; that'd be if I only attacked you, rather than your argument. Perhaps you should try to avoid using terms you don't actually know the meaning of, rather than desperately scrabbling around in grab-bag of stock fallacy accusations.

>And the example I gave is *EXACTLY* the kind of situation I've been thinking about.
What you've been "thinking about" is irrelevant, since it's not what's being discussed, and you are now calling people rude on the basis of completely imagined behaviour. Presumably because you have lost the plot of your failing argument and are now just desperately clutching for a new justification to stick to the same conclusion you arrived at on that particular failtrain of logic.

Which I'm pretty sure falls under "being a faghat", actually.

>If they're using a different name than they use elsewhere then I don't think it's a stretch to think they might not want it to be public knowledge.
And if they then make it public knowledge that those two names are the same then it's not any kind of stretch at all to know that they are OK with it being public knowledge. I'm not really sure how to explain that one any more since it boils down to the pretty simple "X = X" axiom.

>I think people might be overestimating how much I object to this.
Oh boy, it's the ol' reverse variation on "you mad". You object to this so little that you totally haven't been making a string of posts in this thread arguing with at least four distinct people who are telling you that you are wrong. Wait, wait, we've been here before, haven't we? >>/meep/15257

(You know, perhaps when you made the post >>/meep/15265 , you should have read your own link.)
>>
No. 16268 ID: 1f2692

this sounds like a big dumb argument, take it their plz
>>
No. 16269 ID: 8f855e

>>347759
I use a different name on my FA, but I've posted quest art there. If you search FA for "bitequest" or "bite quest" on FA, you can pretty easily figure it out. If I didn't want that account connected with my name here...

I guess I disagree fundamentally. In my mind, I need to proactively protect my identity, or at least indicate to others that I want it protected. To me, just using a different name doesn't imply that.
>>
No. 16270 ID: 2563d4

>>347763
Every time you say "plz", Slinkoboy stamps on a clutch of unhatched Nevrean eggs. Please, think of the peeps hungry Sergals peeps.
>>
No. 16271 ID: 4183c9

>>347763
Oh no, someone does not agree with someone else, how horrible! Must be a BIG DUMB ARGUMENT!

Also
>straw man
>ad hominem
FUCK THIS SHIT. Seriously. Fuck all these technical semantics and their scientific names. Not because they're incorrect, but because I see them too often being evoked in an equally deflecting manner as the fallacies etc. are being used.

For example, someone says that MOST WHITE BREADS ARE SOFT(ISH). Then someone says NO THEY ARE NOT. Then someone says WELL ACTUALLY THEY ARE. Then someone says OH YEAH ARE YOU A FUCKING BAKER? Then someone says OH WHAT A GREAT AD HOMINEM/STRAW MAN/NO TRUE SCOTSMAN/GODWIN'S LAW/NEWTON'S SIXTYSIXTH LAW IN REVERSE. It wouldn't be such a problem if calling out someone on being fallacious etc. wasn't so often considered an argument in itself, especially when (in such cases) it's usually just an explanation of the technical definition of the thing and possibly a wikipedia link, without any further counterargument.
Compare to: MOST WHITE BREAD IS SOFT(ISH). NO. YES. ARE YOU A FUCKING BAKER NOW? COOL AD HOMINEM BRO ACTUALLY FURTHER ARGUMENT SUPPORTING THE CLAIM THAT MOST WHITE BREAD IS SOFT(ISH).
>>
No. 16272 ID: 4183c9

>>347770
I'd prefer if people just kept arguing the thing and not the technicalities of semantics. It reminds me of the NATO discussion where instead of discussing whether or not to join NATO, the politicians were arguing about the word "war" maybe not being something that should be used in the discussion and what technically counts or doesn't count as "war". It was stupid and I'm pretty sure the official opinion still is "we should or shouldn't join NATO".
>>
No. 16273 ID: 8c0848

Your all faggots.
>>
No. 16274 ID: 46feaf

>>347773
Statements of the obvious an arguement do not make.
>>
No. 16275 ID: 07416a

>>347773
You'RE all faggot.
>>
No. 16276 ID: 2eac65

>>347768
If someone is screaming with arrogant rage, then anything resembling a point was an accident and there's no point in discussing with them.
>>
No. 16277 ID: f5fe2f

>>347757
You sound awfully mad. Perhaps in the future you might find it advisable to compose yourself somewhat before posting.

>>347768
Avoiding logical fallacy is a noble enough goal, but I do agree that arguing about whether a given argument fits the criteria for a certain fallacy is rather silly.

>>347789
>then anything resembling a point was an accident
No. More likely, anything resembling a point is a clue as to what they were trying to convey in the first place.
>>
No. 16278 ID: 44f8dd

>>347757
>incoherent paragraphs of seething, seemingly randomly directed rage
Wow. It's been days, so you can't just be drunk. You've got some problems, kid. Damn.
>>
No. 16279 ID: f5fe2f

>>347791
Never underestimate someone's ability to be drunk.
>>
No. 16280 ID: 2563d4

ITT: dumb people assume that correctly-punctuated paragraphs of rant are the result of frothingly hammering at your keyboard.

>FUCK YOU, I WANT A BUTTON THAT SAYS "HATE" AND IF YOU PRESS IT THE GUY WHO MADE FACEBOOK GETS A THOUSAND BURNING ANTS UP HIS STUPID ARSE.
f LionsPhil likes this!
>>
No. 16281 ID: f5fe2f

>>347795
I think devising a system to administer burning ants over the internet might have some logistical issues.
>>
No. 16282 ID: a41aaf

>>347796
Just have them carry the electrons down the tubes to the wan port. There may be some slight packet loss on longer lines as the ants get hungry.
>>
No. 16283 ID: db27ef

>>347731
Guys. Stop arguing for a second
Guys
Are you listing
What
Guys, you gotta hear this.
Guys, what if all of these artists ran quests.
>>
No. 16284 ID: 2eac65

>>347790
"What they're trying to convey" is hate. If they had the inclination to say something logical, they'd say it. When they don't, they resort to aggressive posturing because that's all they can do.
>>
No. 16285 ID: 2563d4

>>347800
That's crazy talk.

>>347801
No, princess, it's entirely possible to both have a point and also present in an an "aggressive" fashion. Like most retards seeking ways to dismiss arguments they don't like, you're missing the "only" in >>347762 (which is why I bolded it, but unfortunately there is no amount of emphasis you can apply to stop morons willfully missing the goddamn point).
>>
No. 16286 ID: 383006

>>347801
Man, you are like, composed entirely of logical fallacies, aren't you?
>>
No. 16287 ID: 8f855e

>>347801
When you're discussing/arguing with people, what you should actually do is address the points they bring up, not just look for easy excuses to ignore what they're saying. I can vitriolically attack a position, and even be mean and insulting, and still make totally accurate, correct, and logically sound points.
>>
No. 16288 ID: 4183c9

>>347804
>I can vitriolically attack a position, and even be mean and insulting, and still make totally accurate, correct, and logically sound points.
HA HA. ALLOW ME TO LAUGH. WAIT, I ALREADY DID.

Dude even if you had like TWENTY (20) full-size research papers full of hard fact, everything you say is voif if you say a naughty word even once!
>>
No. 16289 ID: 28e94e

☑ Big
☑ Dumb
☑ Argument

Time to move this elsewhere
>>
No. 16290 ID: 4183c9

>>347821
You mean to say you don't like it when people don't unconditionally agree all the time so it should be censored.
>>
No. 16291 ID: 049dfa

>>347789

Fun fact, fallacy goobers: THIS is actually an ad-hominem. Rather than arguing that the points are incorrect on their own basis, this faghat is arguing that because someone is a jerk, their point can not be correct.
>>
No. 16292 ID: 400170

>>347805
I really like how you've managed to reduce your entire point, which was even somewhat valid, to a screaming pile of childish hate and what I'm sure you think is witty, edgy bashing. I mean really. Failbook. FurYiffinity. Grow up.
>>
No. 16293 ID: 2563d4

>>347838
Yes, well done, that's another example of >>347824
>>
No. 16294 ID: eba49f

>>347823
Big -> people write LONG RANTS with LOTS OF CAPS
Dumb -> the majority of the recent posts have had nothing to do with the original topic of debate
Argument -> self explanatory

You are complaining about people shouting "Logical Fallacy!" at the slightest provocation while yourself shouting "Censorship!" at the slightest provocation.
>>
No. 16295 ID: 4183c9

>>347840
>Big -> people write LONG RANTS with LOTS OF CAPS
For some people, writing and reading are easy. For those people, the size of posts in this threads has been average at most.

>Dumb -> the majority of the recent posts have had nothing to do with the original topic of debate
That just means the conversation has continued without artificial boundaries. There's nothing dumb about that.

>Argument -> self explanatory
Is it? Does people disagreeing make it an argument? Does the use of naughty words make it an argument? And what does it matter if it's an argument?

>yourself shouting "Censorship!" at the slightest provocation.
You mean like when people are demanding that posts be censored by means of deletion or moving them to a thread specifically labeled to imply that its contents are inherently meaningless?
>>
No. 16296 ID: 2eac65

>>347804
Yes, it's technically possible to do that. It's also possible to make sane and logical points and not be pointlessly abusive in the process, which is what people do when their intention is to be reasonable and convincing.

On the other hand, people who are feeling hostile will be abusive and use what they think of as logic to add weight to their hostility. Sometimes, this bears some resemblence to actual logic; on rare occasions, it actually is logic. Usually, it's aggression that seems like logic to them because it reminds them of their dislike of the things they dislike. Either way, there's no point in trying to discuss their points; a hostile mindset will not change its position in response to logic, because logic isn't its goal.
>>
No. 16297 ID: 400170

>>347839
see
>>347842
>>
No. 16298 ID: 2563d4

>>347843
Indeed, it's yet another ad-hominem, albeit a much wordier one. Still, we can't all be concise.
>>
No. 16299 ID: 4183c9

>>347842
What about intentionally or unintentionally seeing mere lack of politiness or inherent overt use of expletives as active and deliberate hostility or abusiveness? Some people just want to write "fuck" on their aircraft, even when agreeing with things and being generally positive.
Concentrating on general tone or lack of strict protocol in an informal environment - such as an image board - to deflect the arguments themselves is no more righteous than any abrasive commentary.

And hostile logic is still logic. Its hostility makes it no less logical.
>>
No. 16300 ID: eba49f

>>347841
1: I supposed I phrased it inaccurately. I stand by the general point that this argument has grown to fill almost all of the recent posts, to the exclusion of the original subject.

3: Yes, lengthy verbal contention is the definition of an argument. You can debate whether it should be moved, but this is certainly an augment. I recall someone saying "I'd prefer if people just kept arguing the thing and not the technicalities of semantics."

2 & 5: I am under the impression that a thread created for a topic is supposed to be more or less about that topic, rather than filled with argument about entirely different subjects such as who used what fallacy.
>>
No. 16301 ID: 2563d4

>>347847
So on what basis do you perpetuate what is now a meta-argument about if the argument about the thread is bad?
>>
No. 16302 ID: 4183c9

>>347847
If we had a new thread for every minor shift in topic, we'd have a site full of dead-end threads.

And if we moved every post that has ever so slightly diverged from some strict and arbitrary boundaries of what counts as the original topic, the "Big Dumb Arguments" thread should be called the "Pizza Roll" thread because it wouldn't make any sense at all, and posts that addressed both the original topic - whatever its vague definition is - and the divergent topic would either be collateral or parts of them would make no sense due to lack of context.

Besides, any ever-evolving discussion doesn't stop anyone from posting links to galleries or otherwise returning to the original topic.
>>
No. 16303 ID: 400170

>>347851
It does shit up the thread and spread out all those links in big paragraphs of dumb, though.
>>
No. 16304 ID: 4183c9

>>347855
The same could be said of all threads, but one obvious solution is to make a huge compilation post of the links. Even without the discussion in this thread there's no order to the links posted, so you still have to search manually if you're looking for something in particular, or equally manually go through them all if you just want to see everything in general.

In short, the links need to be compiled anyway.
>>
No. 16305 ID: eba49f

>>347848
I figure I might as well due to how much arguing was already going on. (I do admit I started posting here mostly because this one comment annoyed me.)

>>347851
Huge amounts of argument can somewhat drown out the original discussion to a noticeable extent (considering for how little the original topic has been discussed). I guess that is much more of a problem for actual quests than it is for discussion threads though.
>>
No. 16306 ID: 2eac65

>>347846
Hostility does make people less logical. This is evident from its own existence; it serves no purpose other than to be unpleasant. If someone is inclined to be abusive, they aren't going to listen to reason and are going to see logic in their own hate even when none exists. Even if they do include a logical conclusion, there's a large chance that it isn't the result of logic, but the result of directing irrational hate at something imperfect; after all, you can't rely on logical fallacies to be wrong, but that doesn't make the fallacy right even when the conclusion is.

Ultimately, even if abuse has a point in it, this isn't about rejecting the point, it's about rejecting the abuse itself. It's unpleasant to read through abusive comments, and if a truth gets lost on the way... well, the poster can calm down and state it more clearly. Then, everyone will be better off.

So, the reasons to reject overly rude comments, even when they could have a point, are as follows:

1: The chance isn't actually that high, and there's also a chance of things that seem like logic but are really just more hostility.

2: Hostility makes people irrational. It's also contagious, which makes the problem quickly grow if something isn't done about it.
>>
No. 16307 ID: 4183c9

>>347863
If the argument itself is logical, then any hostility in itself is irrelevant, as well as either mostly superficial and most likely simply falsely perceived.
Nonhostile dodging of the issue or constant selfcondratiction are equally abrasive and illogical as any (actual) irrationality linked to hostility.

Unless there is an actual lack of point or logic, there's no valid reason to dismiss an argument based on cosmetic reasons. Poor spelling and grammar make a post far harder to read than hostility, hyperbole or otherwise complex syntax. Poor grammar and spelling can also be a sign of failed education or actual inferior intelligence, potentially leading to a decisively lacking understanding of the discussed issue and generally impaired logic and knowledge, as well as laziness which likely results in (or is caused by) lack of thought put into the matter at hand as well as any commentary thereof.

In short, hostility is a non-issue if logic is present and dismissal of said logic due to any perceived hostility is a display or moral weakness.
>>
No. 16308 ID: 2563d4

>>347866
>dismissal of said logic due to any perceived hostility is a display or moral weakness.
...and irrational behaviour. Mister "logic"-worship up there isn't as Spock-like as he seems to aspire to be.
>>
No. 16309 ID: 2eac65

>>347866
You're answering the wrong question. It's not "Is the point logical?", it's "Should we excuse unjustified hostility if it coincides with a valid point?" Hostility is an issue even when logic is present because it affects how people think and act; this applies even moreso when you're the one making the argument, because a hostile attitude will cause you to mistake your own hostility for logic, thus making a logical discussion much more difficult.

Therefore, excessively abusive arguments should be rejected, not because they cannot be true, but because they are harmful. As I said before, if one ends up rejecting a valid point, that point can be repeated in a less offensive way.
>>
No. 16310 ID: 4183c9

>>347869
If a hostile argument is logical, then clearly hostility is not causing irrationality there. If logic isn't present, the irrationality is the point, not the hostility.

As for a reply being affected by any hostility, real or perceived, to a point where it has a damaging effect, it's a matter of 1) the strength of logic of the reply, meaning that if the logic stands on solid ground, any hostility (again, real or perceived) should not affect it decisively, and 2) mental fortitude, meaning that the person making the counterpoint must not allow any hostility (r.o.p.) to have a decisive effect, and letting it have that effect is morally weak, especially in an informal environment such as an image board on the internet - and this is an important point, because the internet is full of shit. It's not an environment where you can "survive" if you have a thin hide.

Hostility doesn't need an excuse. It might actually even have a valid reason. In the same vein hostility is not, must not and can not be an excuse to reject present logic.
More often than not, "excessively abusive arguments" that have logic are only perceived as such because the logic itself has that effect on the recipient. If the logic isn't there, there's no reason to not reject it, but if the logic IS there, rejecting it due to any hostility (r.o.p.) is far more morally weak and indefensible than said hostility.
>>
No. 16311 ID: 2eac65

>>347870
>Hostility doesn't need an excuse.
>Having your feelings hurt means you're "weak" and immoral.

I think this has gone on for long enough. It's obvious that our ethics are simply too different for us to reach an agreement, and attempting to sway you to my moral code would take a very long time and be disruptive to the topic.
>>
No. 16312 ID: 049dfa

>>347863

>it serves no purpose other than to be unpleasant.

Hostility serves several very significant purposes. Your failure to understand this is your problem, and nobody elses.

>Even if they do include a logical conclusion, there's a large chance that it isn't the result of logic,

lol

>Ultimately, even if abuse has a point in it, this isn't about rejecting the point, it's about rejecting the abuse itself.

Which is why your dismissal of the argument is ad hominem. You aren't addressing the point at all.

>and if a truth gets lost on the way... well, the poster can calm down and state it more clearly.

Nope.avi. You don't get to say 'well it doesn't matter if what you said is correct because I don't like the way you said it ;_;' and come off as anything but a retard. That isn't how logic works.

>Hostility is an issue even when logic is present because it affects how people think and act; this applies even moreso when you're the one making the argument, because a hostile attitude will cause you to mistake your own hostility for logic, thus making a logical discussion much more difficult.

Look at that conclusion! It jumped out of abso-fucking-lutely nowhere.

>Therefore, excessively abusive arguments should be rejected, not because they cannot be true, but because they are harmful.

So if the truth hurts, it's better to lie. Gotcha. You have confirmed yourself as scum, btw.

>It's obvious that our ethics are simply too different for us to reach an agreement,

Translated:

>I said a bunch of retarded things and now I'm going to hide behind the tried-and-true 'I GUESS WE'LL JUST HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE!'
>>
No. 16313 ID: 4183c9

>>347887
>>Having your feelings hurt means you're "weak" and immoral.
Hey, it's people like you who are wont to lecture me about taking anything on the internet "too seriously" or deliberate obnoxious behaviour and personal attacks "hurting" my "feelings". It's people like you who've accused me of having a too thin hide, not even when I've started ranting, but just for mentioning off-hand something I disagreed with.

So, unless hypocrisy and double standards are your ethics, there shouldn't be a decisive difference.

Although admittedly the most common advice I get is to ignore things. Some people really seem to prefer ignorance over all else. I think it's a very prohibitive and morally weak attitude.
>>
No. 16314 ID: 804d70

How the fuck has this not been shunted to the BDA thread?
>>
No. 16315 ID: 2563d4

>>347911
Because not everyone is a delicate fragile flower and since threads are useless for reference to lists of things it's not as if anything of value is being drowned out.

Also because if you turn on pony mode you'll see that a mod is part of this discussion, so I guess the answer is because it's been decided it's not BDA-worthy, and people repeatedly going "gee, the only possible explanation is that the mods missed this huge thread that's been sitting high on /questdis/ for two days---I'd better post my disgruntlement with its existence to draw their attention to it, since the report system is so complicated!" are just being thick, even by tgchan standards.
>>
No. 16316 ID: c891d3

>>347912
I don't think this argument has actually shown up in the reports list, and I think only one person can actually take parts of threads and move them around? Or something, I don't know.
>>
No. 16317 ID: 2563d4

>>347915
I fail to see how that matters.
If you (or 804d70) believe this (sub)thread hasn't been moved because it hasn't been reported, then the correct course of action is to report it, and the system will tell you for certain if that's already been done. If it's unreported, you've now solved this, and don't need to post in it as well. If it's already been reported, then the mods already know, and you don't need to post in it as well.
If you believe this (sub)thread hasn't been moved because Dylan hasn't got around to it, again I don't see how posting in it is supposed to give him more free time to do so.
>>
No. 16318 ID: c891d3

>>16317
Hey, thanks for repeatedly posting in the thread bitching about people posting but not using the report button while also not reporting it yourself. Really appreciate that.
>>
No. 16320 ID: 2563d4

>>16318
Thanks for not paying attention to my fucking point, chuckes: I wasn't arguing for this thread to be in BDA.
>>
No. 16321 ID: 4183c9

And now we have a prime example of censorship by means of marginalization.

Whether or not it's called for is debatable, although I'd debate it isn't reasonable because this site is not a formal arena, so disallowing naturally diverging conversation (at the very least in its original environment) makes little sense.
>>
No. 16322 ID: 2563d4

>>16321
It's also half a job, so now the argument makes even less sense, and remains to "clutter" the thread in dis---give it a month and some moron will probably reignite it.
>>
No. 16323 ID: c891d3

>>16322
Gimme a goddamn minute. The original report only had half the thread indicated and moving shit in here is not exactly a streamlined process.
>>
No. 16324 ID: 1854db

Is it really polite to post galleries like that without asking? Or did you ask all those people?
>>
No. 16325 ID: 788dee

>>347452
I wanted to post ಠ_ಠ in response to >>347430 but now ಠ_ಠ applies to you as well, even if for a different reason.
>>
No. 16326 ID: 1854db

>>347456
You're saying you could find any of those artists by... what, a reverse google search? I wouldn't call it easy to discover these unless you were haunting the front page of furaffinity looking for uploads at the same time someone posted something here.

These aren't all talked about openly. In fact I know one person in that list told me they didn't really want their FA page to be public knowledge. That was a while ago though.
>>
No. 16327 ID: 400170

>>347590
Hello, LawyerDog, I am one of the people you posted there without asking under a name I did not want attributed to the account. You will note that the only reason you know about that account is because I told you about it, because you are not one of the people I want to keep it secret from, nor do I want to hide it from /quest/. However, the name you put down is a name I use elsewhere on other sites that I do want to keep it a secret from, and it is for that reason that you cannot search for it on google, search for it on FA with any information from those sites, find it through favorites or watches or submission descriptions, or comments or page shouts, or taking my name on those sites and putting it after /user/, and they would not know about the IRC to ask on there.

At least, until you put my name on this list. Then you easily linked through Google my name on those sites I really didn't want people to be able to find my FA to the FA I really didn't want those people to find. So thanks, LawyerDog. Thanks a lot.
>>
No. 16328 ID: 1854db

>>347590
I'm not saying who they are because I don't even know if it's true anymore. Also, there's a lot of grey area between secret and being posted in clear view in a public forum. This isn't a black and white issue.
>>
No. 16329 ID: 2563d4

>>347610
Except it is, and if you think obscurity is security then you are only deluding yourself and have no justification to be indignant when reality slaps you in the face.

Any separation between identities goes away the moment you establish a single link between them anywhere public---like, say, IRC channels, or the board, or the wiki. If you want to be anonymous, amazingly one of the required steps is not telling people who you are.

You arguably have a case if you believe LawyerDog was told such a connection in private, in confidence. AFAIK that is not true for a single link on that list since nobody has ever told me such things yet I knew every single one there except a few of the trivially guessable ones where the FA name matches the board name.

So either decide that Nobody Actually Cares and give up on the pretense of privacy, or do it properly and don't tell the world.
>>
No. 16330 ID: 1f2692

>>347611

privacy? meh, it's the confusion of using others peoples computers and have mistaken identity syndrome that you need to worry about.
>>
No. 16331 ID: f5fe2f

>>347588
>reverse google search
Sure, just head on over to reverse google.
http://elgoog.rb-hosting.de/index.cgi

>>347600
A quick search for that name does not turn up this page. It would appear your concern is unwarranted.
>>
No. 16332 ID: 28e94e

1. Locate Bite's FA (not that hard, he's very active)
2. Run through all the links in his profile
3. Run through some of the comments on his posts/journals

I stumbled across one of Bite's posts a few weeks ago and within a couple days had found like three quarters of the accounts on the list.
>>
No. 16333 ID: 28e94e

>>347644
And yes, that includes you Samuel.
>>
No. 16334 ID: 1854db

Regardless of anyone saying that posting something in a public medium automatically means you should expect everyone to find out about it, or about how easy it is to find this stuff if you decide to be nosy/a stalker, I think it's been shown that it is in fact rude to post someone's gallery without asking.

Don't hide behind claims that your actions don't matter in the big picture. Treat other people with more respect.
>>
No. 16335 ID: 679e7a

...I just wanted to find more pretty arts. :(
>>
No. 16336 ID: 543aa6

>>347647
>It's rude to try and hide your art away from people who want to see it. Treat other people with more respect.
That's insanely stupid
>>
No. 16337 ID: 2563d4

>>347646
>I think it's been shown that it is in factrude to post someone's gallery without asking.
There is zero supporting evidence for this claim.
>Treat other people with more respect.
I have no respect for people who pull ridiculous arguments out of their arse to try to justify chastising others (on the behalf of unspecified third parties, no less) over entirely reasonable behaviour.

>>347663
The funny thing is that while LD may have just been mirroring a line, thisiswhatblaankactuallybelieves.tiff.
>>
No. 16338 ID: 1854db

>>347676
>There is zero supporting evidence for this claim.
>>347600

I'm just saying it's rude. Why are people even arguing against this?
>>
No. 16339 ID: 4183c9

>>347704
No. If you have an account on a PUBLIC SITE LIKE FURAFFINITY, you don't get to choose who finds your gallery and who doesn't. Rudeness is not even a factor in this.
>>
No. 16340 ID: 1854db

>>347705
People finding your gallery is one thing.

People sharing it with a large number of people is another.
>>
No. 16341 ID: 4183c9

>>347706
The only time anything like that would be an issue would be if someone went around linking it all over the fucking net, going as far as creating new accounts on sites that he doesn't frequent and that have nothing to do with his tastes, just to link a gallery that isn't even his own.
>>
No. 16342 ID: 2563d4

>>347704
>Why are people even arguing against this?
Becuase I'm naive and optimistic enough to still think that I can convince you that you are not a world authority on everything.
>>
No. 16343 ID: 1854db

I feel like I'm just pointing out obvious things here.

If it's not common knowledge that you have a gallery or where your gallery is, it's not advertised anywhere, and you're not using the same name you use elsewhere for your gallery... would it be unreasonable to suspect that you might not want it to be common knowledge?
>>
No. 16344 ID: 1854db

Oh, here's another hypothetical.

Say someone's a babyfur or is into scat or massive dicks shoved into tiny women.

Would they want their gallery posted here?
>>
No. 16345 ID: 2563d4

>>347711
>I feel like I'm just pointing out obvious things here.
And that is your mistake. They are not obvious or true just because you believe them.

>>347712
If they're putting it up under the identity they use here? Sure.
>>
No. 16346 ID: 1854db

>>347713
>If they're putting it up under the identity they use here? Sure.
Wat.

>>347714
>what they want is irrelevant
Wat.

You guys are assholes.
>>
No. 16347 ID: 4183c9

>>347716
You want to know "rude"? You want to know "asshole"?

There's at least one guy who has taken a portion of my work, removed it from its original content, and uses it to shitpost all over 4chan's /tg/ and (previously) DeviantArt - and that's only what I'm aware of. And I don't recall ever seeing him even indirectly mention the source of the material or credit me for the work.

So fuck you, your stupid opinions and everything you stand for.
>>
No. 16348 ID: 4183c9

Wow.

Just wow.

Not only is the entire line of discussion all arse over cock now, but the action also heavily reinforces the hugbox-mentality reputation of tgchang.
>>
No. 16349 ID: 2563d4

>>16323
Oh wow, and it has in fact ended up out of order as a result.

Given the odds of anyone wanting to read this before was rearranged into jumbled nonsense, by this point you may as well just delete the whole bloody mess.
>>
No. 16350 ID: 4183c9

Man, if the discussion was really so detrimental to the thread, the whole thread should've gone. The links could've then been posted on a wiki page or a new thread with a more comprehensively compiled post.
>>
No. 16351 ID: 804d70

>>16348
If you don't like the hugbox-mentality, there are plenty of other sites on the internet to cater for you. I hear /tg/ is great this time of year.
>>
No. 16353 ID: 2563d4

>>16351
Oh hey, a "get out". Classy.

...and unless I'm mistaken, it's SDF you're talking to, so doubly-hilarious.

Also, there's still one post in the wrong place:
>>/questdis/347602
Which is particularly amusing given that I reported the remainder (including that one, I just checked and it's apparently "cleared") once I saw half of them were gone. Before Typo (unjustifiably) yelled at me for not doing so, in fact. (Go ahead and delete it. I can't re-report it, and it's not like it'd fit in the right place here. Any numerical references to it are already broken.)
>>
No. 16354 ID: 4183c9

>>16351
>>16353
It's hilarious on so many levels it must be on an elevator.

First, he seems to be defending and even advocating hugbox-mentality, which would imply that he believes hugbox-mentality to be a positive thing. Then he's basically implying that a reputation as a hugbox for delicate flowers is a positive thing on the wider web.
Then he takes this hugbox-mentality, ignores it and basically tells me to fuck off. He doesn't say "fuck", he doesn't say "go away", but the message can only be interpreted as "fuck off". Fuck technicalities, fuck semantics, fuck legal loopholes. He's just saying "fuck off" without using any oh-so-evil naughty words.

Then,
>...and unless I'm mistaken, it's SDF you're talking to, so doubly-hilarious.
I don't really know why this is hilarious, but it probably is.
>>
No. 16355 ID: d6ae01

>>16351
It's a strange sign of the times when being considerate to each other is considered a bad thing.
>>
No. 16357 ID: 2563d4

>>16354
Since I wasn't about at the time, quoth the wiki:
>The site was started as an escape/refuge from 4chan, after when Sir Double-Faggot was banned for continuing Joandventure.
And, hell, let's add a dash of Seal ( >>14955 ):
>See, here's the thing. /tgchan/ was founded because 4chan basically got to the point where 'If we don't like this it is okay to troll it off the board' was the norm.

And now we've apparently got this guy trying to drive SDF off the site set up to be free of driving-people-off after SDF was driven off 4chan.

>>16355
It's a depressing sign of the times when people will use their own poor reading comprehension and grasp of arguments as an excuse to look down their noses at others.
>>
No. 16358 ID: 835a2d

>Discuss parodies in the BDA Thread

SURE

Why not. It's a personal pet peeve of mine that only a few authors here know what a good parody is.

A good parody respects the source material. Or, at the very least, thinks the source material has worth.A good example is Gnoll mocking Bob's Golem Quest by taking his characters, making them into silly caricatures, and playing them up for the insanity they are. It was incredibly fun for everyone involved, even Bob was laughing. That's a good parody - It wasn't insulting, it wasn't trying to teach anyone anything. It was just... funny.

And then we have Silvermoon.

Silvermoon, which is 1) an attention grab, a pure and simple "Hey look at me, I'm being a huge attention whore", by openly and shittily 'mocking' (Read: insulting) other authors. 2) It's, he feels, a 'lesson' to them. About what? All I see in the latest one is rampant mocking of shit Reaver has himself openly acknowledged and doesn't give a shit about. 3) There's no respect of the source material, it is, pure and simply, setting up a straw man, and lighting it ablaze, then laughing at the fire and the smoke.

All it does is increase the percentage of shit on the front page.
>>
No. 16359 ID: 2563d4

>>16358
Got it in one.
>>
No. 16360 ID: d6ae01

>>16357
Yeah, it is. Internet!
>>
No. 16362 ID: 2eac65

>>16355
They seem to have a false dichotomy between "verbally abusive, smart person who gives everyone the vitriolic tantrums they deserve to suffer through for thinking bad thoughts" and "hugbox mentality (whatever that is)".

This doesn't take into account the possibility of being honestly critical and respectful at the same time, which is much easier than they make it sound.
>>
No. 16364 ID: 835a2d

>"hugbox mentality (whatever that is)"

Hugboxing is never ever giving someone negative comments in any way shape or form. It's the idea that saying, for instance, "You need to be more concise with your prose" is viewed as an attack, or telling someone how to properly draw a human (Such as, without more muscles than four men put together in one arm) is an insult.

This is what a hugbox is: It's a place where artists post their shit and get nothing but praise for 'originality' and 'cuteness', or other utterly meaningless and useless words that offer nothing in terms of growth or help.
>>
No. 16365 ID: 2563d4

>>16362
>They seem to have a false dichotomy
Nope, since at no point did we ever suggest those were the only two options.

Go on, take another rummage. Maybe one day you'll get lucky and find a term that actually fits an argument you don't like and want to pretend doesn't count.
>>
No. 16366 ID: 2eac65

>>16364
Really? From context, it seemed more like "the idea that courtesy exists", because the actions people use it to defend are more abusive than anything resembling criticism.
>>
No. 16367 ID: 835a2d

>>16366
Feel free to point out a few. I was merely defining the term as I've seen it.

If you want a community that is obligated to handle you (or anyone) nicely, well, it's not really here.
>>
No. 16368 ID: 049dfa

>>16358

>Or, at the very least, thinks the source material has worth.A good example is Gnoll mocking Bob's Golem Quest by taking his characters, making them into silly caricatures, and playing them up for the insanity they are.

Bad example.

Besides, those were just parodies of characters like Bang Shishigami (BlazBlu) and Alex Louis Armstrong (Full Metal Alchemist)
>>
No. 16369 ID: 2563d4

>>16367
Spoiler: communities with enforced niceness are even worse than places like this because what you actually get is an incredible degree of between-the-lines cattyness. It is the place where the shitbag weasel who uses terms like "reasonable" to mask their opinion as fact and "suggests" that people may be "happier elsewhere" while being sure to alert the moderators to anyone stepping over the line of the law prospers.
>>
No. 16371 ID: 2eac65

>>16369
Or you could just be polite. Believe it or not, some people are genuinely considerate of how other people feel.
>>
No. 16372 ID: 2563d4

>>16371
Or you could just suck my dick, because all you have done is be insulting and dismissive to everyone who does not meet your "logical" standards. (Spoiler: they have fuck-all to do with logic.)
>>
No. 16373 ID: 2eac65

>>16372
Attempts at discussion are met with abuse, dismissal and vague accusations. Understood.
>>
No. 16374 ID: 049dfa

>>16373

Nothing 'vague' about it, dipshit.
>>
No. 16375 ID: 2563d4

>>16373
>vague accusations
So you've already forgot your hilarious claim that rude posts cannot possibly contain valid points worth considering, then?
>>
No. 16376 ID: 2eac65

>>16375
No such claim has been made. The argument was never about the absolutes you're trying to argue against. It was about you being rude for no reason. You yourself agreed, in >>16369, that it's bad to snipe at other people, but when people call you out on your directly (and excessively) abusive actions, you dismiss them as either being condescending or advocating a "hugbox" (which, if we go by Trine's definition, is another strawman, since nobody is arguing for an abolishment of all criticism, just that people don't need to be abusive in the process).
>>
No. 16377 ID: 049dfa

>>16376

>just that people don't need to be abusive in the process

Well nobody was being ABUSIVE anyway.
>>
No. 16378 ID: 049dfa

>>16377

oh, and most of the argument was actually about you being a retard and misapplying fallacies and saying anything with any amount of hostility was obviously not worth considering.

So, it actually wasn't at all about what you're trying to backpedal to now.
>>
No. 16379 ID: 2eac65

>>16377
>SUCK MY DICK YOU ARROGANT DISMISSIVE DIPSHIT HUGBOX RETARD
>not abusive

Whatever you call that attitude, it's what the discussion has always been about.
>>
No. 16380 ID: 2563d4

>>16376
So, are you too stupid to use the ID system, or what? Here's a fun game for you: expand to the entire thread, hit Ctrl-F, type "hugbox", and see how many posts you can find with my ID using that word.

Spoiler: this is the first one in the thread. And the thread contains all the posts from the previous argument, natch.

Also:
>No such claim has been made
Ha. Ha ha ha. You are either a troll or a moron, and the sad thing is I suspect you're the latter. Let's quote:
>So, the reasons to reject overly rude comments, even when they could have a point, are as follows:
>1: The chance isn't actually that high, and there's also a chance of things that seem like logic but are really just more hostility.

So once again Seal is right, re: >>16378
>>
No. 16381 ID: 2563d4

>>16379
>complaining about strawmen
>strawmanning my post into ALLCAPS
:3c
>>
No. 16382 ID: 049dfa

>>16379

>it's what the discussion has always been about.

The whole discussion can be viewed (in a bizarre order) by simply scrolling up. Lying about the contents of it isn't exactly bright.
>>
No. 16383 ID: 2eac65

>>16380
That is clearly not the claim you accused me of making. In fact, "logic and bullying cannot coexist" (your interpretation) and "bullying is still wrong even when it coincides with logic" (my actual position) directly contradict each other.

>>16381
>cries retard
>is accused of crying retard
>cries strawman
That was meant to serve as an example of abuse, to clarify what I was referring to.

>>16382
>refusing to acknowledge my actual point to an attack an easily mockable one he made up
This is called a "strawman argument". However creatively you want to interpret past statements, my point is now, as I have said, that there is no valid reason to be abusive, and many valid reasons not to.
>>
No. 16384 ID: 049dfa

>>16383

>This is called a "strawman argument".

No, I have attacked the argument that you actually made instead of the magical fantasy argument that you are now claiming to have made. This is basically the exact opposite of a strawman argument. It's more of you trying to mount a strawman defense for your own argument.

>However creatively you want to interpret past statements

There is no creativity in my interpretations. Just logic, baby.

>my point is now, as I have said, that there is no valid reason to be abusive, and many valid reasons not to.

Which is irrelevant, as nobody was being abusive.
>>
No. 16385 ID: 2eac65

>>16384
This is getting to be one of those discussions where people start hoarding and twisting each other's words so they can "trap" them with their past statements and call them nasty names, and accuse them of "backpedaling" whenever someone clarifies their position or corrects their own mistakes. Arguments like that never go anywhere worthwhile. At this point, we're all better off just explaining what we're trying to say clearly.

My position is as follows: There's no reason to add hostility to criticism beyond what is necessary and directly relevant. For example, if an artist makes an error, pointing it out is helpful, but calling him a retarded talentless faggot is not. Such things only serve to be unpleasant, and to make people on all sides of the issue more hostile to each other's points of view.
>>
No. 16386 ID: 835a2d

>>16385
Be kind to the ARTIST, be merciless to his WORK. The moment you attack the person themself, the moment it falls apart.
>>
No. 16387 ID: 049dfa

>For example, if an artist makes an error, pointing it out is helpful, but calling him a retarded talentless faggot is not.

Which, once again, is entirely irrelevant. If you're going to change your argument, at least change it to something that is relevant to the discussion.
>>
No. 16388 ID: 2eac65

>>16386
I disagree. I think similar standards should be applied to criticism no matter what it is directed at; being vitriolic (as opposed to critical) towards an artist's work (or other things he cares about, such as his mother) is still hurtful and unhelpful. To amend my previous example, telling an artist that the colors he's using clash with each other is fine, but saying it looks like a puddle of skunk vomit and shits up the imageboard with its presence is not.

In other situations, personal criticism could also be helpful as long as you're tactful about it.

If I may go on a tangent, the keys to proper criticism are precision and efficiency. Precision is to tell people exactly what you don't like, clearly, without resorting to vague terms like "faggotry". Efficiency means to only be as insulting as you need to be, without any snide jabs on the side, because those are a waste of composure. It's like surgery: make only the cuts you need to, in the right time and place, and don't just go flailing your sharp tongue at the patient.
>>
No. 16389 ID: 049dfa

>>16388

>is still hurtful and unhelpful.

Not really. A large number of people take 'friendly' advice as suggestions to be freely discarded and never pay any actual attention unless you call them out sharply (AKA: Using hostility) to get them to pay some fucking attention.

Case In Point: Flynnmerk.
>>
No. 16390 ID: 049dfa

And, once again, you're moving the goalposts (and transforming them into a hockey goal in the process) since none of this has a goddamn thing to do with anything that preceded it (which was you claiming that disregarding arguments based on the person not going out of their way to be polite about their phrasing was a good thing).
>>
No. 16391 ID: 2eac65

>>16389
I find that hard to believe, but considering the bizarre ways I've seen the human mind work in the past, I can't rule it out.

Still, it's better to be nice the first few times. Even if people don't fully learn something the first time they hear it, it'll eventually stick, and turning nasty too soon can put people off your advice and interpret it as an attack even when it originally wasn't.

One must also consider whether the lesson is really worth it. Murder, for example, is something that really needs to be fixed, so there's a reason to round up murderers and put them in prison. On the other hand, slightly subpar art isn't a huge deal, so there's no reason to put them in prison.
>>
No. 16396 ID: 28e94e

I'm not even sure what the hell we're arguing about anymore.
>>
No. 16397 ID: 2563d4

>>16396
I'm pretty much leaving Seal to it. The part where they squirm about changing their argument each post trying to desperately grasp something to be right about is tedious.

The funny thing is that both Seal and I are "rude" arguers by this twat's standards, and yet I happily concede error where that's the case (e.g. >>14814 ), and there's at least a partial example for Seal here: >>14161

Maybe he sincerely believes >>13944 .
>>
No. 16398 ID: 4183c9

>>16391
>A large number of people take 'friendly' advice as suggestions to be freely discarded and never pay any actual attention unless you call them out sharply (AKA: Using hostility) to get them to pay some fucking attention.
>I find that hard to believe
[AdamSavage]Well THERE's your problem![/AdamSavage]
>>
No. 16401 ID: 2eac65

Okay, first, let me apologize for how I've acted. I let my personal issues get to me, which made me fail to explain myself well or pay attention to what you were trying to say, and made me act hostile and rude. So, again, I'm sorry for that.

>>16396
Neither are they, apparently.
>>
No. 16403 ID: 2563d4

>>16401
>Apology
>Putting the knife in as a last line
Sincerity status: NOPE.
>>
No. 16404 ID: 2eac65

>>16403
I am honestly admitting error. I let my irritation get in the way of explaining myself properly and didn't give your arguments the attention they deserved.

Now can we put this emotional mess behind us and try to understand each other?
>>
No. 16407 ID: cac440

>>16403
It's still better than a lot of internet apologies.
>>
No. 16444 ID: 15b51b

>>/questdis/348100
ITQ posts visible on the front page are now four consecutive a-picture-of-words responses, followed by someone complaining, not about that, but about an image quest.

What the hell?
>>
No. 16448 ID: 28e94e

>>16444
I would have complained, but I didn't want to be the one to start shit.
>>
No. 16450 ID: 2563d4

>>16444
Yeah. And it's dull "this thing you hyoomons call 'coffee'"-type content, too.

I did trying asking the author what the fuck with the image gimmick ( >>/questdis/347913 ), but no answer yet.
>>
No. 16451 ID: 4183c9

>>16448
I bet you would've fought against communist invasion and oppression, but you didn't want to be the one to start shit.
>>
No. 16452 ID: 4183c9

>>16450
But it's not a nice question and he doesn't agree with it fully so he doesn't have to answer it.
>>
No. 16454 ID: f5fe2f

>>16450
That question looks rhetorical to me. You might want to clarify that you actually desire an answer to it.
>>
No. 16456 ID: 4183c9

>>16454
Even if the question were rhetorical, the post clearly asks for a reply. The only way to "not understand" a reply is wanted is to do so consciously and deliberately.

This, "hilariously" enough, ties right back to >>16389
>A large number of people take 'friendly' advice as suggestions to be freely discarded and never pay any actual attention unless you call them out sharply (AKA: Using hostility) to get them to pay some fucking attention.
This is almost the same thing. Ignoring a question/comment just because it doesn't go out of its way to explain as unambiguously as possible that a reply is requested is inherently similar to ignoring or "misunderstanding" critique just because it's worded nicely and comes with a positive point or two.

Basically, putting it in plain everyman's speak, the guy is an invertebrate bitch princess if he doesn't reply to that.
>>
No. 16457 ID: 2eac65

"This is bullshit, for fuck's sake" isn't critique. It's expressing dislike, but in a rude way that doesn't give an actual reason.

Critique would be "You didn't need that many posts to say that" or something else along the lines of telling him what's wrong with what he's doing and how to do better.

And yes, we all know people are entirely capable of doing both at the same time, but you could also say "keep it to one post" without the namecalling and such. Saying he should just deal with your actions doesn't change the fact that you did them to begin with.

>>16451
Now, this? This is an example of being insulting without making a point. You're comparing his actions to something obviously absurd without explaining what the similarities are or why they're valid criticism. A full-scale military invasion is not the same as writing you don't like.
>>
No. 16458 ID: 4183c9

>>16457
Here's an alternative opinion:

FUCK YOUR THEORY.

First of all, bullshit is bullshit. Maybe some little baby insect might want to beat around the bush, but I CALLS IT AS I SEES IT.
Second, if you "didn't want to be the one to start shit", then YOU WOULDN'T HAVE DONE A FUCKING THING ANYWAY. A large portion of all the bullshit in the world exists just because people "don't want to be the ones to start shit".

Third, if you start crying from a little harsh language, you don't deserve kindness.
>>
No. 16460 ID: 2eac65

>>16458
>First of all, bullshit is bullshit.
Yes, bullshit is bullshit... but what is bullshit? It's a generic insult; it means something vaguely negative, nothing more. It's not only rude, it's vague. Reality is specific, complex and nuanced; using generic insults isn't telling anything like it is, it's just emoting.

>Second, if you "didn't want to be the one to start shit", then YOU WOULDN'T HAVE DONE A FUCKING THING ANYWAY.
Unless someone else starts "shit" with him first. But that's only a part of the problem; the problem is that you compared his opinion to a vastly different opinion with only superficial similarities.

>Third, if you start crying from a little harsh language, you don't deserve kindness.
Everyone deserves kindness. Unfortunately, not everyone can be given the kindness they deserve; sometimes, it's necessary to punish lawbreakers or give someone unpleasant but important advice. But that doesn't mean they don't deserve kindness, and it doesn't make it okay to just do any needlessly hurtful thing to them without a good reason; a very large portion of the suffering in the world is people disregarding others' feelings out of spite or contempt.

Also, consider this: You find it annoying that he posted his message in four images rather than simple text, and think he should not have done so. This is perfectly reasonable. However, other people have the same right, and most people find it very annoying when others scream "FUCK YOU" and call them nasty names.
>>
No. 16461 ID: 4183c9

>>16460
> but what is bullshit?
Pictures-of-text is bullshit.

>Unless someone else starts "shit" with him first. But that's only a part of the problem; the problem is that you compared his opinion to a vastly different opinion with only superficial similarities.
No, he was saying he didn't want to rock the boat. Just after implying that he felt something should've been done. Basically he said he didn't like this thing but someone else should do something about it just so he doesn't "get a reputation" himself.

>Everyone deserves kindness.
Ha ha no. Outside the internet, politeness is possibly maybe the standard. Politeness. Not kindness. OUTSIDE the internet. This means kindness is a positive action, not a default state.
On the internet, the standard is WHO THE FUCK KNOWS. This means even politeness is a positive action.
And if you start by demanding kindness, FUCK YOU.

But then again, most of your kind tend to treat averageness as a decidedly positive feat. Just measuring up to the lowest standards elicits praise from your kind. As for myself, I don't give a fuck if you meet the standards (which are higher for me all around anyway, it seems). If you don't meet the standards, it's a negative feat. If you beat the standards, it's a minor positive feat, but nothing that hasn't been done before - good for you, but if you want a medal, you need to do better. If you really raise the bar (in relative terms, my standards are not that high), it's a decidedly positive action and deserves some fucking recognition.
And that's why this hugboxing shit is bullshit. Because in hugboxing, meeting low standards is treated as a fucking medal-winning achievement of heroism and skill beyond the call of duty.

Also the kind of people who would demand kindness tend to be the first ones to attack me personally, regardless of what I actually say or do. So fuck them (you?) and their bullshit hypocrisy.

Also
>scream "FUCK YOU" and call them nasty names.
I didn't scream anything and I didn't call nobody no names. I called the thing that guy was doing bullshit, "bullshit" being in common usage basically a grade of sorts as. I could've said "what you're doing is F-" or "gee eye numba ten", but overall "bullshit" made the point clearer. Then I used "fuck" as an exclamation.
If you saw "screaming" and "calling names" in that, you seriously need to unfuck yourself.
>>
No. 16465 ID: 2eac65

>>16461
I... what? I never said anything about lowering your standards or default states or whatever you're accusing "my kind" of thinking. I'm just saying that it's better to simply be critical of people's mistakes than it is to be pointlessly rude and verbally abusive.

Also,
>Pictures-of-text is bullshit.
That's just as vague as it was the first time you said it. Emoting like that is beating around the proverbial "bush" of the point you're trying to make. It doesn't accurately reflect reality the way a more specific critique would.

>No, he was saying he didn't want to rock the boat. Just after implying that he felt something should've been done. Basically he said he didn't like this thing but someone else should do something about it just so he doesn't "get a reputation" himself.
Now, see, what you just did there is explain what your point was. That's good. It's not necessarily what he actually meant by his comment, but explaining your interpretation is better than just snarking at him.

>I didn't scream anything and I didn't call nobody no names.
>WHO THE FUCK KNOWS.
>FUCK YOU.
>FUCK YOUR THEORY.
>invertebrate bitch princess
>little baby insect
That was just an example. I didn't mean to imply that those were the only things that are needlessly rude. For example, it's also rude to call something "bullshit" and otherwise playing up your disgust, when (this bears emphasis) you could have easily just said what was wrong with it.
>>
No. 16466 ID: 383006

>>16465
Does he really need to explain why taking up the whole visible area of the ITQ thread with pictures-of-text is annoying? Really? I think it's pretty obvious to people not just looking for excuses to be condescending to people on the internet.
>>
No. 16467 ID: 9a34be

>>16465
Bro, you are getting trolled hard. Might want to step back.

>>16466
Yes, he does. Hell, you just did it yourself.
>>"taking up the whole visible area of the ITQ thread with pictures-of-text is annoying"
See? That's a reason. Infinitely more constructive than "It's bullshit"
>>
No. 16468 ID: 2563d4

>>16466
>I think it's pretty obvious to people not just looking for excuses to be condescending to people on the internet.
Unfortunately I don't think it is obvious to this guy. I still don't think he understands just how much of a gigantic bell-end he's being.

Whereas >>16467 probably does, because dismissing an argument as "trolling" is, itself, pretty much a standard wind-up tactic.
>>
No. 16469 ID: 4183c9

>>16467
Ooooh, heeee's not being niiiiice, he must beeee trolleeeeeeng.

Also pictures-of-text is bullshit because EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS BULLSHIT. First of all it's a TEXT QUEST thing, and with text quests, NOT-bullshit is the exception. Secondly, it's obnoxious and pretentious. Third, it's bullshit. Fourth, its only merit is that unexpanded it's very easy to not see the actual contents (in for example ITQ, the quest itself is naturally and automatically hidden - although I really shouldn't need to explain this) and that's not a very positive thing at all.

And like >>16466 said,
>I think it's pretty obvious to people not just looking for excuses to be condescending to people on the internet.

Yes.

I am implying that you are just looking for excuses to be condescending pricks. Is at least that much clear now? Or do I need to write a 100,000-word essay to explain what I'm saying, analyzing each and every word individually?
>>
No. 16470 ID: f5fe2f

>>16467
>>16467
Is this what we've come to? Trolling in the big dumb argument thread?
>>
No. 16471 ID: 4183c9

>>16470
You're just as bad as any "troll" if the only reaction you have is to cry about trolls.
>>
No. 16472 ID: f5fe2f

>>16471
(I didn't even read the original post that is claimed to be a troll)
>>
No. 16473 ID: 2563d4

>>16472
Nothing like proclaiming uninformed opinions, eh?
>>
No. 16474 ID: 28e94e

sup SDF
>>
No. 16475 ID: f7ae22

Saying someone is "trolling" is not a refutation of their argument.
Having text in images is bad for many reasons and good for zero reasons.
1. Only one font choice for the reader.
2. Only one text color choice for the reader.
3. Only one background color choice for the reader.
4. Only one text size choice for the reader.
5. No way to search the text.
6. No way to read the quest without expanding images.
7. It takes more time to do than plain text.
8. It is harder to edit than plain text.
9. It uses up more bandwidth than plain text.
10. No cleartype.
11. No way to hyperlink to other posts.
12. Using the subject field is fine for differentiating author posts, and this is also easily searchable.
13. No way to copy and paste text from the author posts.
14. It's bullshit.
>>
No. 16476 ID: 835a2d

>>16469
More reasons why Text-in-images is RETARDED:

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE TEXT FIELD IS TO DESCRIBE OR COMMENT ON THE IMAGE. THIS TYPICALLY TAKES THE FORM OF A QUEST AUTHOR GOING OVER SHIT THAT ISN'T MADE CLEAR BY THE IMAGE, OR DIALOGUE, OR SOME OTHER SHIT. IT'S USED BY TEXT AUTHORS TO CREATE THE BODY OF THE POST.
PUTTING THE BODY OF A TEXT QUEST POST INTO AN IMAGE IS REDUNDANT AND WASTES EVERYONE'S TIME, INCLUDING THE AUTHOR'S. IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S COPYPASTING THIS SHIT INTO WORD FROM ANOTHER SITE, HE'S ACTUALLY ADDING ANOTHER STEP TO UPDATING BY CREATING THE IMAGE AND PUTTING THE TEXT THERE. IT ADDS ANOTHER STEP TO READING IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO EITHER LOAD ALL THE IMAGES (WITH THE EXPAND ALL IMAGES BUTTON) OR DO IT ONE AT A TIME.

HE COULD JUST PUT THIS SHIT IN THE TEXT FIELD.

IT'S MORONIC AS HELL.
>>
No. 16478 ID: 28e94e

>>16476
You did not need caps lock at all for that post.
>>
No. 16480 ID: 2eac65

>>16466
Explaining your argument is the best way to make sure you have one. Anyone can call something "bullshit" or the like, but you can't state a valid point unless you have a valid point to state. On the other hand, many logical fallacies are enabled by people being vague and indirect about what they think is their point. And, of course, it helps other people understand what you mean; if they knew why so-and-so was bad, they wouldn't need you to say anything in the first place.

But that's kind of a tangent, since he (and you) did state what the person did wrong (which we all agree on). He was just using vague and useless words like "bullshit" in addition to that.

>>16469
>I am implying that you are just looking for excuses to be condescending pricks.
I... see. So you're assuming that we don't really disagree with you and are just pretending to have different opinions because we enjoy being rude? When people have that attitude, debates almost inevitably degenerate into nonsensical flame wars where nobody learns anything and everyone leaves feeling a little more polarized and hateful than they were at the start.

See: politics. You have liberals spewing vitriol at the braindead right-wing thugs, conservatives spewing vitriol at the braindead left-wing thugs, and so on. A lot more gets done when people just talk and listen to each other instead of getting caught up in self-righteous demonization and ness.

That's why it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt.
>>
No. 16481 ID: 383006

>>16480

That seems like a ridiculous mischaracterization of that sentence. For someone who talks about giving people the benefit of the doubt, you sure are quick to assume that the other party isn't trying to make a valid point.

I think a better way to take that sentence would be the way I meant it. You were sort of mincing words and trying to sound superior instead of actually add anything useful to the discussion. Hell, you even admit that you understood what he meant anyway, and agreed with it.
>>
No. 16482 ID: e3f578

Is anyone even defending text-in-image quest? I mean holy shit if someone is they're dumb as fuck but now it sounds like all I'm hearing is like one side yelling it and I'm like "Okay, who are you refuting? You're just repeating yourself, gosh."

It sounds like what's the real argument is either being a condesending piece of shit, a rude piece of shit, a hugbox piece of shit, or just being a piece of shit is the right way to be online.
>>
No. 16483 ID: 9a34be

>>16482
Far as I can tell, no one's defending text-in-images (could be wrong). We seem to be arguing over the proper way to say it's bad.
>>
No. 16484 ID: 2eac65

>>16481
That's exactly what I interpreted your accusation as. You're assuming I have some sinister ulterior motive instead of just thinking that people should be nicer to each other.

>>16482
We're debating whether generic insults (such as "a piece of shit" or "dumb as fuck") are useful criticism or pointless obnoxiousness. I say they're pointless because they make a message more offensive and don't add anything you couldn't say respectfully.
>>
No. 16485 ID: e3f578

>>16484
Personally I think they add flavor.
I don't even use the word motherfucker offensively. See, because that motherfucker over there is one cool son of a bitch. Just look at that motherfucker strut
>>
No. 16487 ID: 049dfa

>>16484

>I say they're pointless

And you're wrong. Swearing and spewing vitriol is relevant as it is a cultural symbol for the degree of your distaste for a thing. If you say it is unpleasant, it has a significantly different meaning than if you say it is disgusting. If you say it isn't very good, that is a lesser degree of 'bad' than 'a piece of shit.'

You are not retarded enough to not already know this, so stop acting like you are.
>>
No. 16488 ID: 2eac65

>>16485
>Personally I think they add flavor.
That's a good analogy. Points are like vitamins that nourish your mind, demeanor is like the flavor of the meal you're eating. Sometimes, with comments like...

>I don't even use the word motherfucker offensively. See, because that motherfucker over there is one cool son of a bitch. Just look at that motherfucker strut
...like this, it can make it an interesting and exotic meal. Other times, you have a chef who thinks that healthy food is supposed to taste bad and puts so much capsaicin in his food that it not only burns out your taste buds and makes you want to spit it out, but actually dilutes the vitamins and minerals.

>>16487
There are many ways to express a degree of like or dislike. For instance, one can say "this is terrible" rather than "For Christ's sake, get this shit off our board!" Some are more accurate than others, some are more offensive than others; these two factors don't always correlate.

Second, expressing a degree of quality is itself not as important as specific critique. The latter is more helpful, and this may just be my personal experience, but I think people try too often to rate things on a linear scale. A lot of nasty wars could be averted if people focused less on whether X or Y deserves more points and more on what specific aspects of those things they like.
>>
No. 16490 ID: 049dfa

>>16488

>For instance, one can say "this is terrible" rather than "For Christ's sake, get this shit off our board!"

These are two different statements with two different meanings.

>but I think people try too often to rate things on a linear scale.

That's because that is the only viable way to rate things. Otherwise your rating is fucking useless.
>>
No. 16491 ID: 2eac65

>>16490
>That's because that is the only viable way to rate things.
Not true. You could also rate things on multiple separate scales, or by listing their pros and cons, without simply "adding them up" to a generalized "overall" score. Doing it that way can help people looking for specific things, and authors looking for specific things to improve.

This is especially helpful for criticizing people, as they're generally more reluctant to admit that they're pathetic douchebags than they are to admit specific mistakes.

>Otherwise your rating is fucking useless.
I'd say it's the other way around. A linear score is less useful than a more informative one.
>>
No. 16492 ID: 2563d4

>>16481
This post is basically entirely correct and I'm not convinced it's worth trying to reason with the guy any more. That said:

>>16491
>A linear score is less useful than a more informative one.
This is like saying "cake is less delicious than a more delicious thing". You have completely failed to peg down a concrete example.
>>
No. 16496 ID: 4183c9

>>16480
>see. So you're assuming that we don't really disagree with you and are just pretending to have different opinions because we enjoy being rude?
No, I'm assuming fuck-all. I'm "implying" (blatantly stating) that you are getting on your high horse and pretending you don't understand a short comment, within context, just so you can be a condescending prick because instead of actually arguing the point, you'd rather "be right" and leave it at that by going all political and legalese on semantics.
>>
No. 16497 ID: 383006

>>16492
What he seems to be saying is something not worth really arguing about because it's sort of facially true, unless I misunderstand him.

An example would be "This is 6/10" or "A is better than b is better than d is better than f is better than e is better than c. C is the worst quest on the board" That's not very useful for the author, but I don't think anyone ever argued that it was.

A better method would be saying: "Your art is terrible, just, just fucking nonsensical. It's hard to even tell what's going on. Try, I don't know, drawing the pictures bigger and then shrinking them down. Use this http://www.pixelovely.com/gesture/index.php"

>>16484
Wow. You really don't take your own advice at all. Saying that I am assuming you have some ulterior motive is not giving me the benefit of the doubt. Also not what I did. You argued with someone when you actually agreed with the point they were making, just because you didn't the like way they said it. This is exactly what I was accusing you of. It's not sinister, it's just douchy.
>>
No. 16498 ID: 049dfa

>>16491

>You could also rate things on multiple separate scales,

You could, if you were a fucking moron. Rating something is a function of measuring its worth in relation to competing entities. Measuring them on different scales is just fucking stupid. I take back what I said about you not being retarded, as even insinuating this is just irredeemably stupid.

>or by listing their pros and cons, without simply "adding them up" to a generalized "overall" score.

Any rating without a generalized 'overall' score is probably not worth a shit.

>as they're generally more reluctant to admit that they're pathetic douchebags than they are to admit specific mistakes.

No, they pretty much treat them exactly the same way.

>A linear score is less useful than a more informative one.

A linear score is at least as useful as an informative one. As far as rating goes. Which is what you are talking about here.
>>
No. 16499 ID: e3f578

my favorite simple score system is essentially just a 1-5 scoreboard but has statements like
Terrible, Bad, Likeable, Good, FUCK YEAH AMERICA
>>
No. 16500 ID: 4183c9

Speaking of bullshit and especially text-quest related bullshit, WHY THE FUCK DOES GUNS FOR HIRE HAVE PICTURES FOR THE CHARACTERS ON THE WIKI PAGE? Not fanart, not even something by some unrelated acquaintance, but fucking GIS shit!
Why is this even allowed?
>>
No. 16501 ID: 2563d4

>>16500
...good question.

I'm deleting the ones with other people's watermarks and copyright footers, in particular stock photo companies. I'll leave deciding on the rest to the mod team since it's not like people don't upload technically infringing images to the board.
>>
No. 16502 ID: 4183c9

>>16501
I don't care about them infringements, I just think it's very insulting in general and towards image quests for a text quest to use images that have not been made specifically for that quest as "official" character portraits or what have you.
>>
No. 16504 ID: 2563d4

>>16502
I figured your objection was along those lines, although I'd worry more about the people in those photos taking offense at being portrayed as characters in a Bob quest. :V

Regardless, I'm not going to on a mad-with-power deleting spree on the rest unless someone with mod powers says "yeah, zap 'em". (Which I kind of doubt will happen.)
>>
No. 16505 ID: f7ae22

Non-author images in quests are the most annoying bullshit when trying to read an archived quest, especially the morons who post images with ridiculous dimensions. It even says in the rules not to post retarded reaction images in the quest threads.
>>
No. 16506 ID: 2563d4

>>16505
There's nothing quite like clicking "Expand all images" only for a horizontal scrollbar to appear and the thumb to shrivel to a tiny nub.
>>
No. 16516 ID: 2eac65

>>16496
I said outright that I agreed with the point you were making and you're accusing me of "pretending to not understanding" why you think image text is bad?

>>16497
>Saying that I am assuming you have some ulterior motive is not giving me the benefit of the doubt.
What you said was:
>I think it's pretty obvious to people not just looking for excuses to be condescending to people on the internet.
>You were sort of mincing words and trying to sound superior instead of actually add anything useful to the discussion.
If you weren't intending to accuse me of "just looking for excuses to be condescending to people on the internet" and "mincing words and trying to sound superior instead of actually add anything useful to the discussion", as opposed to arguing a point because I honestly believe it, then you can at least see how I got that impression.

>You argued with someone when you actually agreed with the point they were making, just because you didn't the like way they said it.
Nobody argued against his point. The argument is about the way people say things, because the way people say things is important.

>>16498
>Rating something is a function of measuring its worth in relation to competing entities.
And things can be valued for many different reasons. Some want different things out of their entertainment than other things, so talking about qualities as if they were distinct from each other (which they are) is helpful.

Of course, that's assuming a non-tautological definition of "rating".

>Any rating without a generalized 'overall' score is probably not worth a shit.
"Quest A has good art, but low interaction. Quest B has an interesting plot and setting, but boring characters. Quest C has fun characters, but the artwork and plot are minimal."

See? Quite a bit more informative than a simple B>A>C style rating. Both to the authors who want to know how to improve, and to the readers who want to know what suits their personal preferences best.
>>
No. 16518 ID: 4183c9

>>16516
NUMBER ONE: You were not agreeing with me about "bullshit" being perfectly valid critique in the context in which I said it.

NUMBER TWO:
>Quest A has good art, but low interaction.
HOW IS THE ART GOOD? HOW IS THE INTERACTION LOW? It's not really explaining anything.
>Quest B has an interesting plot and setting, but boring characters.
Interesting how? Boring how?
>Quest C has fun characters, but the artwork and plot are minimal.
Fun how? Minimal how?

See, "that shit sucks" is just as valid as any general "X is good but Y is not good". Basically, unless you write a fucking essay*, you have no basis for rating any general "advice" higher than an overall ranking or practical equivalent.

*THIS IS ACTUALLY HYPERBOLE, DO NOT TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY, YOU FUCKING RETARD.
>>
No. 16519 ID: 383006

>>16516
Yes, you were doing exactly what I accused you of doing, and doing that is extremely douchy. An "ulterior motive" implies that you were somehow attempting to not be an enormous douche, or be an enormous douche secretly, which is obviously not the case. What you were doing was pretty facially apparent.

Any time somebody says something like "Man, I hate fucking this thing. It's basically garbage"

If you come in and say "YOU KNOW, CURSING IS UNNECESSARY AND YOU HAVEN'T CLEARLY MADE YOUR POINT" you are being a hopeless douchecake. You are not addressing what the other person is saying, and are attacking the way they say it instead. This does not add to the conversation or address the topic at hand. At best, you are changing the subject and being a condescending prick simultaneously.

The way people say things is more usefully addressed by arguing against their point directly and seeing how they respond, instead of making wild, unfounded assumptions about what the tone of their text implies.
>>
No. 16520 ID: e3f578

>douchecake
haha what
>>
No. 16521 ID: 4183c9

>>16520
It's a perfectly valid expression.
>>
No. 16522 ID: 2eac65

>>16519
Nobody's avoiding any issues here. What we're talking about is whether verbal abuse is valid logic or not. Branding that point "douchebaggy" (as if your massive vitriolic post were superior) doesn't prove anything except that you hate it.

Also,
>"YOU KNOW, CURSING IS UNNECESSARY AND YOU HAVEN'T CLEARLY MADE YOUR POINT"
If by "cursing" you mean "being excessively offensive and rude", then yes, it is unnecessary. And I never denied that some of his points were valid, I'm addressing the other things he also said.

>>16520
The flavor of his post makes it hard to swallow, but I think he's saying something about how people shouldn't use nitpicking to distract from someone's point, because it can still be valid even if it's badly expressed. That's true, but it also works both ways: a point can be badly expressed even if the one he's thinking of is valid.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but all the namecalling makes it difficult to pick out what your point actually is.
>>
No. 16524 ID: 4183c9

>>16522
>Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but all the namecalling makes it difficult to pick out what your point actually is.
His point is that you are a condescending prick, a douchecake, an asshole and all-around cunt.

Which you just proved to be true by deflecting the issue by ignoring everything in his post excluding the "bad words".
>>
No. 16525 ID: 2eac65

>>16524
...Now I understand why this isn't getting anywhere. Generic insults aren't valid points, but anyone who thinks they are uses them on anyone who doesn't because they think they're valid points. The people who don't already agree with them find this completely unconvincing because they don't see any logic in emoting hate, and, well, there really isn't. Hate is just hate.
>>
No. 16526 ID: 4183c9

>>16525
The insults themselves are not the point, you hedgehog-fucking pickle-clown. This is what you fail to see, this is why there is a "problem" to begin with, this is why this isn't getting anywhere.
>>
No. 16527 ID: 2563d4

>>16525
>...now I understand why this isn't getting anywhere.
No, no you really don't. Because FUCK that rude word there just completely jammed your little robot brain so that you can't even SHITBALLS read this text.
>>
No. 16528 ID: 2eac65

>>16526
>The insults themselves are not the point,
So just calling something "bullshit" isn't a valid argument in and of itself? You have to give a logical reason to justify your disapproval?

This assumes, of course, that you consider said "something" inferior or flawed. Everyone's entitled to their preferences.
>>
No. 16529 ID: 9a34be

>>16527
So, basically, you're admitting that you're purposefully breaking down communications by inserting such words where they aren't necessary?
>>
No. 16531 ID: 2563d4

>>16529
No, and you are incomprehensibly retarded for even coming within a mile of that conclusion.

Also I'm going to take a guess that you've just failed at paying attention to IDs as well.
>>
No. 16532 ID: 2eac65

>>16531
Really? Let's break it down.

Premise 1: You know that verbal abuse will make this conversation harder.
(Evidence: You said so.)

Premise 2: You are being verbally abusive unnecessarily.
(Evidence: Your abuse is noticeably separate from your actual point. For instance, your first sentence could be shortened to "no" without making it any less clear.)

Conclusion (from P1 and P2): You are deliberately doing something unnecessary which makes this conversation harder.

The logic seems sound.

Of course, you could just say that the consequences are other people's fault for not trying hard enough to choke your points down, as opposed to your fault for putting nasty sauce on them, but almost everyone is less inclined to process statements when they contain insults.
>>
No. 16533 ID: 9a34be

>>16531
Apparently I have, because I don't see what that has to do with this. Enlighten me.

And let me explain my conclusion: you implied in >>16527 that using rude/insulting/whatever words in a post "locks up" the brain of whoever you were responding to.

If the other side of an argument can't respond coherently/correctly, a breakdown of communications has occurred. I'm assuming that someone's brain "locking up" would result in them being unable to reply coherently/correctly.

Thus, if you support using rude/insulting/whatever words in an argument, knowing that they will "lock up" whoever you're arguing against, you are supporting a breakdown of communication.

That's about how my reasoning goes. If I'm mistaken or misinterpreted what you were trying to say, feel free to correct me.
>>
No. 16534 ID: 2563d4

>>16532
In during people with Internet Aspergers cannot process statements in context. Beep-boop.

>but almost everyone is less inclined to process statements when they contain insults
As always with you, [citation needed].
>>
No. 16535 ID: e3f578

>>16522
man i'm not questioning his fucking point.
Douschecake just sounds weird and doesn't roll off the tongue but hey some people say it's valid so who am I to judge
>>16526
>hedgehog-fucking pickle-clown
hoh shit
I am learning today
>>
No. 16536 ID: 383006

>>16522
No, the namecalling does not make my point difficult to swallow, you insufferable cuntsack.

Insults in and of themselves without context are obviously not really saying all that much, but if I choose to express myself with strong language, that has no impact whatsoever on the underlying logic of my statements.

You are the one that started the argument about cursing. That was not addressing what the other guy said, it was attacking the way he said something unrelated to start an argument. Yes. This is douchy. Holy shit, what a fucking revelation.

The internet is not a formal debate with a judge and people in suits. People are and should be free to express themselves casually and be able to discuss and debate with one another just fine. Being a nitpicky twat doesn't add anything. It frustrates efforts to communicate.

>>16533
Do you seriously not understand that >>16527 is actually just mocking you because the idea that seeing a curse word makes you unable to properly process the statement that contains it is completely fucking retarded? Do you really not get that? Because that is what that post is doing.

I have no difficulty processing statements with curse words or insults at all. No normal people do. Casual language shouldn't be remotely difficult for humans to understand.
>>
No. 16537 ID: 2563d4

>>16533
Oh dear, you as well. Look, I'm really sorry your brains don't work. But perhaps you should spend less time arguing in circles on the Internet and more seeking professional psychiatric advice. Maybe they'll be able to help you with basic communication and integration with society.

No, I'm not going to spend the next few hours trying to explain. There's no return on investment for me doing that, because you two are either incapable or unwilling to handle basic human conversation and the degree of context and fuzziness required. It ceased being entertaining a while ago, I honestly have no expectation that I will shift a single neural connection in your brains, and I'll take my chances that the peanut gallery---god knows who would even be paying attention by this point, because this thread vanished up its own arsehole in meta-arguing faster than an ouroboros with an anal vore fetish---won't consider me a substantially worse person for it.

I'll leave you a couple of hints, though. I don't really expect you to achieve anything with them, let alone understand just how rude you're being, but I always was a hopeless optimist.

1) I am not in the habit of sabotaging my own posts with needlessly poor communication during an actual discussion.
2) I fully expected 2eac65 to read all the way to the end of >>16527 . Both entire sentences!

(Oh, and for the terminally hard of thinking: this does not necessarily mean I won't be posting in this thread again.)
>>
No. 16538 ID: 2eac65

>>16537
>how rude you're being
Finally, we're getting somewhere.

Now, that "rudeness" you're complaining about? That's how people get when they're aggravated. I'm not saying it's good or justified, but people aren't perfect.

Second, you know all that namecalling you're doing? You know, "douchebag", "bullshit", things like that? That's also rude. And when you're rude to people, they lose their tempers. And when people lose their tempers, they act rude.

Right now, you're attacking people for what you consider unpleasant, but you're being very unpleasant yourself and seem to feel justified in doing so. This is unfair and hypocritical.

If we all just said what we meant, without being pointlessly rude to each other, we might get somewhere. That's my point.
>>
No. 16539 ID: 9a34be

>>16536
Honestly, no, I didn't. (First of all, >>16527 wasn't directed at me, but that's beside the point.) I assumed he was mocking >>16525 for being unable to process an argument with curse words in it, not that he was mocking them for putting forward "unable to process an argument with curse words in it" as a theory.

Which would have been clearer if he had just said what his point was instead of "mocking" anyone.

...Which is kind of the point of this argument.

Then again, because I made a simple mistake, I'm obviously just pants-on-head fucking retarded, aren't I?

Either way, you're probably right. getting pissed off about cursing and whatnot has derailed this argument more than the cursing itself did. Still think ಠДಠ's a troll though.

Oh, and >>16537 ?
>>let alone understand just how rude you're being

>>Look, I'm really sorry your brains don't work
>>you two are either incapable or unwilling to handle basic human conversation

Pot calling kettle etc. etc. etc.
Hey, you know how I asked you to clear up a simple misconception? And how >>16536 not only did that, but also made a valid argument? You should try that sometime.
>>
No. 16541 ID: 8c0848

>>16538
Being pointlessly rude is a long standing internet tradition, twinklenuts. Grow a thicker skin and deal with it or go cry to a more hugboxy community about how people are mean to you, due to your flagrant homosexual tendencies.

I don't even know what this argument is about.
>>
No. 16542 ID: 2eac65

>>16539
My point wasn't as exaggerated as he made it sound. Being hostile towards others has a polarizing effect which makes them hostile in turn, resulting in both sides being opposed to each other's arguments on an emotional level. This makes them less likely to reach an agreement and more likely to think even less of differing opinions and the people who hold them. That's how rudeness makes conversation difficult.
>>
No. 16543 ID: 383006

>>16538
OH COME ON! He is getting mad at you for being an idiot and ignoring what people are saying. His message is extremely clear even with insults and naughty words. You are far more annoying with your inability to parse ideas than any curseword or insult could ever be. Notice how you haven't cursed or insulted anyone, but he is still angry with your attitude and demeanor.

You can get somewhere just fine and still call someone an asshole. This does not frustrate communication in any way. For instance: "I do not like how you continually misunderstand what everyone else says, you fucking mongoloid." I think that is both very clear, and it's purpose is not remotely frustrated by the inclusion of an insult. Also: "It is extremely fucking annoying to attempt to argue with you, because you don't understand anything about debate or logic." That is another example of a very clear statement with a curse word that does not frustrate its purpose.

>>16539
I do not think he was originally trying to do anything other than make fun of you. The fact that you did not understand that does, indeed, point toward some deficiency on your part. Also, calling you rude is only hypocritical if he somehow does not think he is also being 'rude.' I seriously do not think that is the case, given the apparent venom in his post. This failure to understand what words mean seems to be an issue here, and I could see your lack of ability to derive meaning from context being frustrating for you. I sincerely hope we can all understand one another a little bit better in the future now.
>>
No. 16545 ID: 383006

>>16542
This is only true if you are an idiot. No matter how hostile someone is being towards me on the internet, I respond to the content of their statements, not the way they are making them. If you let hostile language make you unable to properly articulate your point, there is something wrong with you.
>>
No. 16546 ID: 2eac65

>>16543
>You can get somewhere just fine and still call someone an asshole.
You can make a logical argument while doing just about anything. That doesn't mass-justify everything.

>Also, calling you rude is only hypocritical if he somehow does not think he is also being 'rude.'
Or if he feels like it's okay when he does it while refusing to tolerate anything like it in anyone else.

Also, insulting someone's intelligence for not agreeing what you're saying doesn't make what you're saying any clearer or more valid.

>>16545
If you waste words with hostile language in the first place, there's something wrong with you. The human mind isn't perfect, and you're just blaiming the victim for your own mistakes.
>>
No. 16547 ID: e3f578

>>16546
oh my fucking god
reading all these posts is exhausting
what the fuck are you going on about, jesus christ
I know this is big dumb argument thread but there has to be a line beyond BDA and it's makes it just fucking retarded argument. I can't even read your posts anymore; they're just so fucking boring
>>
No. 16549 ID: 383006

>>16546
I am not making mistakes. I am also still articulating my points quite clearly. You are the one that straight up said you are unable to properly discuss things if someone is using bad language or being rude. How is that me making a mistake? How is that me wasting words? How is that a deficiency in anything but your ability to properly reason?

>Or if he feels like it's okay when he does it while refusing to tolerate anything like it in anyone else.

This is what I just don't get about you. He never said that anywhere. Most of the people in this thread say that it's totally fine to rib on the other party while you argue. He is saying it's FINE to use hilarious insults when you argue on the internet. In other words, how you understand a clear statement is the opposite of how it was intended. You seem to have some actual issue with parsing language.

That and statements like:
>Also, insulting someone's intelligence for not agreeing what you're saying doesn't make what you're saying any clearer or more valid.

I never said or implied that. Quite the opposite!

>You can make a logical argument while doing just about anything. That doesn't mass-justify everything.

Or this! No one said this! You are not addressing-

Okay, wait, I had an epiphany just now. Your real problem is that you are taking what is true for you, and you alone (or at least some minority of people), and projecting it onto everyone else. That is what all this confusion comes from. Your arguments get especially muddle and nonsensical at points. That must be because you are so mad you can't properly articulate, and you somehow think that this is how other people behave.

I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but that is simply not true. Normal people, especially in internet conversations, don't get flustered when people make fun of them. It really doesn't frustrate communication or make it any harder to argue. This is an entirely localized issue. Let me give you some advice: If something somebody says on the internet gets you upset, calm down before you respond. This should fix your issue.
>>
No. 16550 ID: 2eac65

>>16547
It's actually pretty simple. Some of us think that we should be considerate of each other's feelings and try to make this a pleasant place, because:
-We'd enjoy it more.
-We'd be more level-headed due to a lack of hostility, which would make it easier to understand each other.

Others say that people should just deal with it when other people are rude to them, because:
-Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to make a logical point.
(A lot of things don't. But even so, is it okay in itself or not?)
-Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to understand each other.
(Not completely, but it still polarizes people against each other's opinions.)

So that's the argument as I understand it.
>>
No. 16551 ID: e3f578

>>16550
I said this is boring, I don't give a shit about what this argument is anymore; it's gone on and on and on.

Fuck your telling me no one has something else to complain about that we can get on his case for complaining about it?
>>
No. 16552 ID: 383006

>>16550
No. That is not the argument, and never was. Let me clarify it for you.

>>Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to make a logical point.

Rudeness has no impact on the logic of the underlying statement or a normal person's ability to understand that logic.

>>Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to understand each other.
(Not completely, but it still polarizes people against each other's opinions.)

"rudeness" make it no more difficult to understand other people. Normal people do not get "polarized against the other person's opinions" because they are rude. Normal people understand that people, especially on the internet, are going to use casual language and don't let that kind of thing affect them.

Your original statement in the previous thread was that you were completely justified in ignoring anything somebody said because they were mean about the way they said it. That is a wrong thing for you to think. Also, things like rudness and etiquette vary from community to community. If you look at, hell, this discussion here, you will see that in this community, we like to be abrasive. We reject a fluffy hugbox method of communication with each other, and also don't get upset about it. It has no impact on how well we communicate with each other.
>>
No. 16553 ID: 2eac65

>>16547
It's really quite simple. Some of us think we should be considerate of each other's feelings, because:
-We'll all be happier that way.
-We'll be calmer due to a lack of hostility, which will make it easier to share our thoughts.

Others think that other people should just deal with it when someone's rude to them, because:
-Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to make a valid point.
(A lot of things don't. The question remains, is the act itself okay or not?)
-Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to process a statement.
(Not impossible, but less pleasant, and it still has a polarizing effect.)

>>16549
It's not a minority. Nearly everyone responds to social etiquette, and nearly everyone is influenced by their emotions, even if they can usually overcome it. Multiple fields of science are based on this. So are the entire concept of propaganda, numerous common logical fallacies, and many other things. Yes, it would be better if we weren't, and yes, we should try to overcome our emotional limitations, but we're not perfectly logical, so we have to deal with what we've got, and that means doing what it takes to make each other happier.

That's why social etiquette is important. A few good-natured jabs are fine, as long as everyone is honestly enjoying themselves, but you can't just hurt someone's feelings and tell them to deal with it. Different things are appropriate in different contexts, and we're all better off when we consider each other when we decide what to do.
>>
No. 16554 ID: 049dfa

>>16550

>Rudeness doesn't make it impossible to understand each other.

It is not rudeness that is leading to your lack of ability to understand what people are saying. It is a mental deficiency on your part (or you are actually completely aware of how retarded you are being and are just trolling).

Also check it:

>-We'd be more level-headed due to a lack of hostility, which would make it easier to understand each other.

There has been one person in this thread who has apparently had trouble articulating their point (to the point of later clarifying that their argument concerned something completely unrelated to any of their prior posts), and I'm pretty sure we all remember who that was.
>>
No. 16555 ID: 049dfa

>>16553

>but you can't just hurt someone's feelings and tell them to deal with it.

You are acting like a fucking idiot.

Deal with it.
>>
No. 16556 ID: 383006

>>16553

see

>>16552

Also, keep in mind that the context we are talking about here is "on the internet," although I do not know many adults who become incoherent when made fun of, even in person.

Honestly, I don't really thing there is any value whatsoever in going out of my way to make sure I don't offend a random stranger. If somebody's gonna get all upset on the internet, yes, that is their problem.
>>
No. 16557 ID: e3f578

>>16553
Dude I am not arguing with you or asking you questions
Are you reading something else here?
I just said this subject is dumb and boring and stupid? Want a "why?" because it's incessant and repetitive beyond a level EVER displayed in this thread. I am not being ironic, I am not fucking around, I am not being mean or condescending here just shut the fuck up for the love of god someone bring up another topic.

Wasps are awful little fuckers. I hate them and many bugs and I want to live in an environment without them no matter the consequences.
>>
No. 16558 ID: 383006

>>16557
Oh no way man, I will totally argue with you about that! Okay, firstly, wasps are awesome. Secondly, most people would rather not have spiders all over the damn place everywhere. You know what wasps get rid of? Spiders, that's what.

Bugs are super interesting and neato. People think that they're gross because they've never taken the time out to really learn about them!
>>
No. 16559 ID: 2eac65

>>16552
>Rudeness has no impact on the logic of the underlying statement or a normal person's ability to understand that logic.
Many fields of science disagree with you.

>Your original statement in the previous thread was that you were completely justified in ignoring anything somebody said because they were mean about the way they said it.
That isn't what I'm saying. That was a result of getting riled up by people screaming at each other. This should have been obvious to you. Why are you bringing it up again? It's illogical to do so. Perhaps because you want some excuse to call me a Wrong Thinker?

>>16556
Your assertion fails to stand up to evidence. It seems that people do, in fact, react badly when things they like are attacked, and tend to lash out at the perceived attacker. If this were not the case, most of this thread would not exist and we wouldn't have any complaints about people trying to "drive each other off the board" or anything of that sort. To say that it's all just funning around is implausible.
>>
No. 16560 ID: f7ae22

>>16558
What if I do want spiders all over the place? Spiders are bros, wasps are foes.
>>
No. 16561 ID: 383006

>>16558
Also I have totally just identified myself. :V
>>
No. 16562 ID: 049dfa

>To say that it's all just funning around is implausible.

Better than it would be if we tried to enforce 'nice'ness and were dealing with constant passive-aggressive bullshit. Because that's what people do when they're being 'polite.' That's what you're doing right now, being the only one offended by something everyone else is fine with and trying to play the victim and force everyone else in line.

Fortunately, the tyranny of the oppressed does not apply here. You are free to find a different website if this is displeasing to you.
>>
No. 16563 ID: f7ae22

Look at this fuckin' spider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgAbyYDFeg
DON'T SEE A FUCKIN' WASP DOING THAT.
HE IS SO TINY

OH MAN YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS GREAT? FUCKIN SHARKS. WAY BETTER THAN WASPS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWEdStaaZyE
>>
No. 16564 ID: 383006

>>16559
No. No. Idiots are convinced by logical fallacies and propaganda. All your "many fields of science" prove is that idiots can be swayed through emotional appeals if they don't think about what people are actually saying. We are not talking about tricking people into thinking we are right, we are talking about getting upset over internet insults. Context man! Context!

>>16559
This is just blatantly false and where it is not false it is irrelevant to the argument.
We are talking about rude language in an argument, not intentionally harassing people for the purpose of driving them away.

I participate in this thread all the time. It's because I'm easily entertained by arguing with people. There are plenty of other people who just straight up like to argue. That's distracting and doesn't really belong in a lot of discussion threads, especially when it's sort of a tangent on whatever the thread is supposed to be about. That's why this thread exists. You getting mad doesn't mean everyone or even most people do.
>>
No. 16566 ID: 383006

>>16563
Shit man, I love spiders! I'm just sayin, that's the choice you make when you start killing wasps. He might be cool with that.

ALSO YES I LOVE SHARKS WHY AM I EVEN POSTING WITHOUT MY NAME AT THIS POINT?
>>
No. 16567 ID: e3f578

you know what's better then sharks?
bitches
>>
No. 16568 ID: 049dfa

>>16567

There's nothing hotter than a bitch all sharked up and beggin' for it.
>>
No. 16569 ID: e3f578

Man Seal I didn't know you liked seeing ladies getting eaten erotically
>>
No. 16570 ID: 2eac65

>>16564
>No. No. Idiots are convinced by logical fallacies and propaganda.
People can't be neatly divided into "smart" and "stupid". Human psychology is quite complex. People are more inclined to believe negative things about things they already hate. Being part of a crowd can distract someone from their own thoughts. Lots of little things like that can happen in a human mind, even a smart one.

>All your "many fields of science" prove is that idiots can be swayed through emotional appeals if they don't think about what people are actually saying.
Well, yeah. Emotional influences don't just happen when someone's being deliberately deceptive. Sometimes they happen because the speaker believes them, due to his own emotional bias. Sometimes they happen just because someone acts a certain way and another person has an emotional response. Even if you have the willpower to compensate for the influence, it's still there.

>We are not talking about tricking people into thinking we are right, we are talking about getting upset over internet insults.
Which seems to happen quite frequently. People get upset over a lot of things on the internet: insults, spam, text images, badly drawn art, badly written fiction, liking the wrong game system, or any number of other things. This leads people to be spiteful and rude, which gets other people to be spiteful and rude right back.

You're dividing people into "stupid" people who are influenced by emotion, and "smart" people who think logically, but the line isn't that clear-cut. Just about everyone's influenced by emotion even if we don't always show it; it's a basic and pervasive part of human nature. It's important for us to respect feelings, not just for logic's sake but also for the sake of happiness.

I realize that just hearing me say that isn't going to seem very convincing to you, so let's end this argument for the sake of saving ourselves even more aggravation. Just think about it, okay? Read some psychology studies, look at some internet threads from a different perspective, think about how your feelings make you feel. I think you'll see what I mean.
>>
No. 16571 ID: 383006

>>16570
Okay, you have got to be fucking kidding me, because this is the most condescending shit I have ever read. I worked at an outpatient psych clinic for two years. You are so totally off base I don't even know where to begin.

I am not saying that emotions don't exist. No one is saying that. I have always been and continue to say that in the context of an internet argument, letting insults get you so mad that you can't understand what the other person is saying is retarded. In the context of a discussion or debate, letting your emotions cloud your judgment to such a degree that you can't accurately respond to the content of the argument makes you stupid. It is bad. Normal people do not do this.

Not that you won't occasionally feel feeling or have emotions, but that you don't let it affect you to such a degree that you can't properly articulate a response. This is actually uncommon.

I know exactly how my "feelings make me feel" and also how emotions affect other people. You seem to think that feeling them to any degree makes you unable to think rationally. I feel like this makes you mentally deficient.

Notice how I didn't fly into a rage and addressed the content of your post even though you directly insulted me in an extremely condescending fashion. My initial response was to just make fun of you and call you names, but I chose a few disdainful turns of phrase to make my displeasure with your insults known to you, while still making the point I want to make.

Okay, now I'm going to sleep.
>>
No. 16572 ID: f7ae22

Bite if you were a shark would you want to be tucked into bed tightly or loosely?
>>
No. 16573 ID: 383006

>>16572
Who is doing the tucking?
>>
No. 16574 ID: f7ae22

>>16573
Two other sharks.
>>
No. 16576 ID: 2eac65

>>16571
I... what... did you...

You said that emotions influence people, then you... insulted me for saying so and insulted people who are influenced by emotions.

>You seem to think that feeling them to any degree makes you unable to think rationally.
I... don't. Emotional influence is subtle, and the result can easily look like something rational. Like how you interpreted my statement like that.

Honestly, I'm totally at a loss about this. All I'm really trying to say is that people should be considerate. How did that turn into this mess? What's to be gained from this? Is there any way to end this that would help us get along? I'm being genuine here. This isn't what I intended at all.
>>
No. 16577 ID: 383006

>>16574
What kind of shark am I, and what kind of shark are they? Also, are they boy sharks or girl sharks?
>>
No. 16578 ID: f7ae22

>>16577
You are a male grey reef shark, and you are being tucked in by a female river shark and a female tiger shark.
>>
No. 16579 ID: 049dfa

>>16576

>Like how you interpreted my statement like that.

That was basically the only way to interpret your statement given the context provided by all of your other posts in this argument.
>>
No. 16580 ID: 383006

>>16578
Grey reef sharks are obligate ram ventilators, so they have to keep swimming. Even though both of those other sharks are pretty damn sexy, I have to go with loose so I can keep swimming.
>>
No. 16581 ID: 9a34be

>>16571
Uh, bro, he didn't directly insult you, his post wasn't condescending, emotions effect people on the internet, and you're mad.

>>I worked at an outpatient psych clinic for two years
No comment.
>>
No. 16582 ID: f7ae22

>>16581
This is what happens when you don't Tame your Love Soda, kids.
>>
No. 16583 ID: 2eac65

>>16579
Okay, this isn't doing us any good.

I apologize for what just happened. Really. I an very sorry for how I acted. I thought that my advice could help people be happier, but instead I just ended up lording my morals over everyone instead of listening or thinking about how you really felt. That was stupid and hypocritical and I am truly sorry for it.

Now can we put all this behind us and just have fun with our quests?
>>
No. 16584 ID: 383006

>>16576
Don't make me quote your own posts back at you, son. That's what you'd said right up there, up above my post.

Basically, you need to stop either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting other people's posts so that they don't make valid points to you. Shifting goalposts is also really bad form. You can change your stance and admit that you were wrong at some earlier point. It will actually make you look like you're a reasonable person instead of a prick when you do that. (note that I am not calling you a prick, and that this is actually intended to be helpful advice to help you communicate better with other people, especially people who may not agree with you.)

If you actually want to disagree with someone intelligently, don't be condescending, and assume they are making a valid argument against you supported by their statement. That's how you're supposed to debate. I really tried that with you instead of just throwing my hands up and saying "this guy can't read." You have done exactly the opposite with pretty much everyone in this thread. This is frustrating, and makes people want to insult you instead of talking to you. Not because they are so overcome with emotion that they cannot articulate, but because they understand that you aren't going to listen to them, so it's not worth their time to argue. Basically, exactly the same reason why you said you wouldn't read "mean" posts. Only you are actually doing that, and the people who had naughty words in their post were not.

The tone of your posts conveys information about you. Your tone says "I think I'm smarter than everyone else and they are only disagreeing with me because they don't understand my point, no matter what they say." When people throw around insults and curse words on an internet forum, especially this community, it mostly conveys "I am being ridiculous on the internet, because it is fun to do so."

Just.. don't get so emotionally involved in internet discussions, and don't take them too seriously. I think that will foster better communications.
>>
No. 16585 ID: 049dfa

>>16583

Man I put this behind me like every time I post but then it ends up back in front of me again.

Something you may notice about people who act like jackasses on the internet: Believe it or not they tend not to hold grudges. Some do, but those tend to be the ones who are legitimately jackasses.
>>
No. 16586 ID: 383006

>>16583
Well, you posted this as I was typing up my thing, and I could just delete it, but it's long and I spent some time on it, so I wont.

I don't have any sort of problem with you as a person. I disagreed about the things you were saying.

I will definitely continue to enjoy my quests and hope you do the same.
>>
No. 16588 ID: 9a34be

While we're all making up, >>16581 here. I just realized that I'm a huge asshole.
>>
No. 16591 ID: 2563d4

>>16563
Jumping spiders are the best of the minibeasts.

And sharks are just underwater cutebolds.
>>
No. 16595 ID: 476456
 

Sharks know how to party.
>>
No. 16596 ID: 2563d4

>>16591
>cutebolds
>>16595
>threesome

...or perhaps not.
>>
No. 16597 ID: 4183c9

So how about them character pictures in text-quest wiki pages? Because I can't help but notice that there are still pictures with copyright text and other logos/signatures/watermarks that count as copyright statements, although this shouldn't really be an issue to begin with, since none of the pictures are actually of the characters, regardless of any vague similarities they may or may not hold. The same should also apply to any picture in the infoboxes, as those images are not of the quest. If someone makes fanart just for that purpose, fine, good for you. But not this bullshit of taking pictures from elsewhere and pretending they belong to your (shitty text-) quest. They do not.

Not that using pictures in the quest threads themselves is any better. Using those pictures is like saying "my quest is as cool as this picture I stole from someone's gallery/googled without any effort/found on *chan". It's also like cutting the finger of an image quest author's daughter, sending it to him in mail with a letter that says "I piss on all you create!"
>>
No. 16598 ID: 0373d5

>>16595
I like how they both came at the same time. That's very sweet of them. c:
>>
No. 16599 ID: 0373d5

>>16597
I think we should definitely take them down from the actual wiki for damn sure. Don't people draw fanart for these quests? We should definitely use that instead.
>>
No. 16600 ID: 2563d4
Audio digbrinkinsult.mp3 - (296.15KB )
16600

Re: insults; see audio. Just because I stumbled across it and it's an excellent use of a German accent.

>>16598
It was totally hot.

>>16597
If someone puts on their Mod hat and says "delete", I'll delete them, if Typo/Dylan/etc. don't want to deal with it themselves. I'm not wading into the cesspits of the main IRC channels to seek out their opinion, though. Unless someone else cares enough, it comes down to Seal and whoever else idly watching this thread.
>>
No. 16601 ID: 4183c9

>>16600
My hat is better than a mod hat.

My hat is genuine wolf fur.
>>
No. 16604 ID: a41aaf

>>16597
>It's also like cutting the finger of an image quest author's daughter, sending it to him in mail with a letter that says "I piss on all you create!"
Hello Ivan!
>>
No. 16605 ID: 8c0848

Rainbow Dash is way better than Fluttershy.
>>
No. 16606 ID: 4de2c3

>>16605
Fuck your shit, Fluttershy is the superior pegasus.
>>
No. 16607 ID: 049dfa

delete
>>
No. 16608 ID: e3f578

Derpy has all the bitches, though, and always finishes the job!
>>
No. 16610 ID: 2563d4

>>16606
Earth ponies are best ponies.

(Uncontroversial opinion: Rarity is better than Twilight.)

>>16607
Alrighty then!
>>
No. 16612 ID: f7ae22

Rarity is pretty top tier. And top tier pretty.
>>
No. 16613 ID: e3f578

Since we were talking about animals earlier, what about bats?
>>
No. 16615 ID: 4183c9

>>16613
Cats fuck bats up on occasion. For no particular reason. Just because. Bats are smalltime. The Estonian word for bat is literally translated "leather mouse".

CAT HOORAY.
>>
No. 16616 ID: 0373d5

>>16615
I don't even think Estonians are real. I'm pretty sure some English dude in the 1920s made them up when he was telling a confusing story to the children he was about to molest.
>>
No. 16617 ID: 4183c9

>>16616
Go away, Bolshevik. What the shit do you know?
>>
No. 16619 ID: e01504

Since were already going on about copyright on the wiki.
I'm not really sure if it's ok that the Joanquest guy uses those pictures from /tg/ just because the avatarfag who did them remains anonymous.
>>
No. 16620 ID: 0373d5

>>16619
You are an idiot. The pictures in the Guns for Hire wiki page are from GIS and some actually had copyright notices on them.

The pictures for Joanventure on the wiki are from the actual quest that the article is talking about. That is an OK thing to do.
>>
No. 16621 ID: 4183c9

>>16620
Spoiler: He saying the joke.
>>
No. 16622 ID: 0373d5

>>16621
I read the post wrong because I am an idiot. But at least I'm not Estonian.
>>
No. 16623 ID: 4183c9

>>16622
>But at least I'm not Estonian.
Indeed.

It would be a great shame for the Estonian people if you were one of them.
>>
No. 16624 ID: 0373d5

>>16623
Well, they aren't real so I wouldn't exist, and the internet would be deprived of my great character and wisdom. I don't want to be some silly forest elf or tree gnome or whatever else the imaginary Estonian people might be.
>>
No. 16625 ID: 4183c9

>>16624
Even forest elfs and tree gnomes are better than Bolshevik scum like you.
>>
No. 16626 ID: 2563d4

You appear to be confusing Estonia for Belgium.
http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
Estonia's existance is clearly supported by its stellar record in Eurovision.
>>
No. 16627 ID: 383006

>>16625
I cannot possibly be a bolshevik because I loathe the sort of revolting communism typically exemplified by elves and other fey creatures.

>>16626
My mistake. All of those European countries are basically Chinese provinces anyway, as far as I'm concerned. I'm pretty sure Russia is just china with a sock over its penis.
>>
No. 16628 ID: 2563d4

>>16627
I thought China was Russia's turgid nutsack, bulging with a new era of socialist ejaculate?
>>
No. 16629 ID: e3f578

I was playing LA Noire and they kept calling an Anarchist a Marxist and other words for communist like Pinko.

Are they considered just as bad as communists here? Or did the McCarthy era just call anything that wasn't democracy communism, even though Anarchism is the total fucking opposite? Is a Monarchy communist?
>>
No. 16630 ID: 383006

>>16628
That works too. As long as they're conjoined and there is some kind of genital metaphor.
>>
No. 16635 ID: 4183c9

>>16629
>Or did the McCarthy era just call anything that wasn't democracy communism
No. They called anything and everything that they didn't like communism.

After allowing Stalin to rape all of Eastern Europe in the ass sideways.

To wit, THEY WERE COMMUNISTS THEMSELVES.
>>
No. 16649 ID: 2563d4
 

SOCIALISM!
>>
No. 16650 ID: 07a2a9
 

Good to know there are still upstanding citizen to fight communism and socialism wherever they find it.

Yes, they know what the words communism and socialism mean. They just don't want to tell. You can't force them! It's in mah consdidushiaahn.
>>
No. 16651 ID: cbcbc9
File 130892644259.jpg - (79.99KB , 560x367 , change.jpg )
16651

This thread is now about politics in America, the only true democracy in the world which will stay a global super power for the next 1000 years.

And no, it's not a continent.
>>
No. 16656 ID: 24e9a8

>>16651
This thread is now about whiny passive-aggressive Canadians.
>>
No. 16657 ID: 15b51b

>>16656
>see people complain about mccarthyism
*advicedog.jpg*
>call them unamerican
>>
No. 16659 ID: 286b80

>>16657
There is nothing wrong with the USA and never was.
Those who say anything different are prejudiced or jealous or both.
>>
No. 16660 ID: acad39

>>16659
The sad thing is that there are people in this world who actually honestly believe this.
>>
No. 16661 ID: 28e94e

The big problem with the US is that too many people are willing to blindly support their parties in all matters, while the leaders of the parties themselves have a habit of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.
See also: Republicans.
>>
No. 16663 ID: f5fe2f

>>16661
See also: Democrats.

bipartisanism isn't a single-party problem.
>>
No. 16664 ID: 28e94e

>>16663
Of course that's true, but the Republican party happens to be a much easier target.
>>
No. 16665 ID: 2563d4

>>16663
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-democrats-are-doomed-or-how-a-big-tent-can-be-too-big/
>>
No. 16666 ID: e3f578

the party system in general is stupid
it makes politics into even more of a game then if it was without
>>
No. 16668 ID: 286b80

>>16661
Eurofag here. It also happens on this side of the pond, sometimes terribly so.
Although it happens (slighlty) more often to the voters for the conservative party (conservative as it is understood in europe).

'Something new which was not here before? Oh, it must be terrible, let's despise without looking at the pros and cons.'
>>
No. 16669 ID: e3f578

>>16668
At least Europeans can have ridiculously named parties win power and have everyone to expect them to take it seriously. Wasn't there one named for cats?
>>
No. 16670 ID: 2563d4

>>16669
Things_Americans_Actually_Believe_About_Europe.jpg
>>
No. 16671 ID: 286b80

>>16670
While I do not know the cats party, I hereby present: Pirate Parties International
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Parties_International#Pirate_Party_movement_worldwide

They are elected to municipal councils in my home country. Several.
>>
No. 16673 ID: 2563d4

>>16671
Ah, we're setting the bar low for "winning power", then. Because, you know, UKIP hold a town council.[1] Even with that, I wouldn't really say that the UKIP are "in power". For one thing we're still pouring money into the EU.[2]

Perhaps more damning for the idea that, at least on Airstrip One, we like little crazy parties is just how comprehensively the nation stamped their foot and said "NO!" to the idea of vote reform that might actually shake up the two-party pendulum and let the "little guy" in.[3] Although given this happened during a coalition government largely because last general election enough people were sick of the Labservatives to vote for the spineless yellow party, and that the most vocal opposition to said reform was "it's too complicated", perhaps it would be more accurate to characterise this as the UK public loudly proclaiming that they're actually too stupid to sort things in order of preference. I guess they look upon the likes of Channel 4's 100 Greatest Stand-Up Comedians as miraculous and inconcievable future space rocket-science.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKIP#UKIP.27s_first_Council
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#State_by_state_analysis
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011
(inb4 "hurr using Wikipedia for references"---it's a dumb Internet discussion. You'll get your half-arsed sourcing and be grateful for it.)
>>
No. 16675 ID: 286b80

>>16673
>the whole post
Wat
>first town council
Offtopic: Moncktonwas there? That little shit.
>little parties not in power yada yada
The Pirate Parties were one example that got a little media coverage and is not (fully) meant satirical. And also, they have fully elected represantatives in a few cities' councils.
It was the first example of a "ridioulously named party" gaining "some kind of democratic power" in europe that came to my mind.

Also, brits are crazy shit islanders anyway. Contintenal forever.
>>
No. 16685 ID: 2563d4

>(derp derp FA cub art derp)
<LonelyWorld> Blaank: Pedo ban, seem to have more perks then drawbacks
<Blaank> I mean there was the jew ban in germany and to them it had more perks than drawbacks. It's about your perspective wheter or not it's good.

Blaank, ladies and gentlemen. To whom being barred from jerking it to underage porn is exactly the same as the holocaust.

<Dylan16807> will you accept 'terrible at making analogies', blank?
< Blaank> nope

Yes, he really does mean it.
>>
No. 16688 ID: 9b3c89

>>16685
He didn't say they were exactly the same. He said that both had their proponents, and implied that there is a demographic who would not consider a pedophile ban to be "good". You could argue that he's doing a poor job of presenting the argument in other ways, but that comparison is fine.

Based on what you posted, anyway.
>>
No. 16693 ID: 2563d4

>>16688
Oh look, Cruxador also can't see why it might be objectionable to compare a ban on underage porn to systematic genocide. What a surprise.

His argument is that pedo is banned becuase the majority don't like it and this is exactly the same motivation as for executing Jews. That is his argument. Also he believes that the tyranny of the majority is the only reason pedo is banned:
><Blaank> The majority don't like pedo so that's generally the rule in places.
>...
><Blaank> If it's illegal then yeah. Drawn pedo is currently still legal in a lot of places though again, site hosts have the right to ban anything since it is their sever. And almost everyone is against it so it usually gets banned.

I mean, I'm impressed. In a way that I don't really want to be. I'm long since jaded enough that /b/-grade "lol jews" trolling is just the background noise of the Internet, but Blaank is actually making a sincere comparison here rather than being hurr-edgy and he cannot see himself at fault:
><LonelyWorld> Blaank you should apologize for being offensive
><Blaank> Bleh.
><LonelyWorld> c'mon

Guess what happens next! A fun game for you:
1) Blaank actually apologises
2) Blaank doesn't apologise, at least one person leaves the channel in disgust, Blaank gets banned but comes back (complete speculation: he pleaded that HE NEEDS TOZOL TO LIVE)
>>
No. 16694 ID: 08050b

>>16693
>why it might be objectionable to compare a ban on underage porn to systematic genocide.
He didn't. He compared it to the jew reglementation laws (at least from what you told here, I did not see the chat)
A rather stupid analogy in terms of appeal to emotion.

>His argument is that pedo is banned becuase the majority don't like it
Which is the foundation of every law in every rule-of-law society, or is it?
>and this is exactly the same motivation as for executing Jews
If a group of people wants to exterminate a ethnic minority and has the means to do so, they probably will if they are not stopped.
My personal oppinion: they should be stopped.

If a group of people wants to ban pedophilia and have the means to do so, they will if they are not stopped.
My personal oppinion: they should not be stopped.

>Also he believes that the tyranny of the majority is the only reason pedo is banned
I can imagine a pedophile might certainly think like that.
As a non-pedophile, I'd rather say that many laws may feel "tyrannical" or "authorical" but should be obeyed noetheless since they serve a greater purpose for the society as a whole.

tldr; You are putting too much emphasis on a (very) queer analogy and you should stop acting holier-than-thou to people who don't see the matter exactly as you do.
>>
No. 16696 ID: 8eac95

How many admitted pedophiles does tgchan have anyways?
Oh yeah, the fact that they are "only" sexually aroused by children just means they are not actual criminals yet.
They are still pedophiles.
>>
No. 16697 ID: e3f578

pedo is basically a fucking mental sickness
all said and done bam
>>
No. 16698 ID: 2563d4

>>16694
>Which is the foundation of every law in every rule-of-law society, or is it?
No, no it is not. There is a reason why documents such as the Magna Carta and other bills of rights exist.

"You're just stopping me jerking it to cub art because the tyranny of the majority is persecuting me JUST LIKE A JEW" is a brain-damagingly stupid argument.

>You are putting too much emphasis on a (very) queer analogy
If so, then so were many others in the channel. But, y'know, hey. If you think I'm being selective, please feel free to wallow in the full load of stupid which is the log:
http://pastebin.com/u0BbiR2B

>and you should stop acting holier-than-thou to people who don't see the matter exactly as you do.
I was going to object, but---no. No, I am not going to dispute or feel ashamed for considering myself above holocaust-downplaying pedophiles.

>>16696
Enough that I wish the few good quests would move elsewhere so I didn't have to come here to read them.

Which is to say, any at all.
>>
No. 16700 ID: 08050b

>>16698
>the Magna Carta and other bills of rights
I would not really call the english feudal system of the 13th century a rule-of-law state (to which I referred to in my post).

But still, was it not founded by the majority of the people with political influence in that time? English feudal lords limiting the rights of their monarch, so majority (power) wins.

>If so, then so were many others in the channel
The internet and esp. chatrooms are full of disproportionate exagerations and unfitting analogies.
You seem to acknowledge that, yet you are still wondering about Blaank's analogy?

>feel ashamed for considering myself above holocaust-downplaying pedophiles
The point is he didn't. He is not downplaying the holocaust, he just made a very stupid point about the correlation of the jew reglementation laws and anti-pedophilia laws.

Both laws have negative effects on a minority in a society.
I agree with you that the two things differ in terms of purpose:
The jew laws were meant to take away civil, then human rights from jews on the faulty basis of a random social-darwinistic idea.

Anti-Pedophilia laws serve the rational purpose to protect minors from harm.

If that's your major qualm, then we are in agreement on that. The so-called "persecution" of pedophiles is different from the persecution of jews by the nazis and the analogy would be faulty.

However, that's not the vibe I was getting from the quote.

That a person with pedophilic drives feels restricted by such laws is, I think, a trivial point. Just like any other minority would feel by a law directed against it by the majority (even if it is a "sick" minority and a "healthy" majority).

>not going to dispute or feel ashamed for considering myself above...
I was not really pointing that towards your reaction to Blaank, but to your reaction to Cruxador's answer. I probably phrased it not accurate enough.
>>
No. 16701 ID: 2563d4

>>16700
>the english feudal system of the 13th century
The clause for due process and (some) basic human rights, #29, is still in force today. Yes, the wording w.r.t. "judgement of his Peers" can sound like "OH NO THE MAJORITY" if you're an insufferable out-of-context nitpicker and ignore the context that this is effectively an obstruction to burning witches because most of the village decided they look a bit funny.

>But still, was it not founded by the majority of the people with political influence in that time?
>with political influence
Very weasely of you there, trying to call a minority a majority.

>yet you are still wondering about Blaank's analogy?
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the problem with Blaank's comparison is that it is not factually correct.

Once again I find myself in the BDA thread arguing with robots.
>>
No. 16703 ID: 08050b

>>16701
>Once again I find myself in the BDA thread arguing with robots.
..but agreeing with them for the most part? I guess the majority of my post, which you didn't address, holds no objectable content.

We should celebrate our consensus on the matters of protecting minors from pedophiles and the falsehood of the analogy between restricting the rights of jews in the third reich and the restrictiong of pedos in acting
according to their sexual preferences.

>The clause for due process and (some) basic human rights, #29, is still in force today...
I acknowledge that, yet it misses the point I was trying to make.

Then I said the will of the majority was the foundation of every law in a rule-of-law state, I meant "according to the rules in that society".
E.g. in a representative democracy, the representers with the legitimacy of their voters represent the majority of their people, if they intrduce a new law by majority vote.
In a aristocratic republic, it would be the bigger number of nobles woh represent the mojority of those who are allowed to participate in political life.

I personally would not call the medieval feudal system a rule-of-law state, but my historical knowledge might be too scarce for holding that position.

>Very weasely of you there, trying to call a minority a majority.
I'm sorry, I don't understand? The feudal lords were in the minority against the king and his supporters? I thought it was the opposite.

Do you mean the small class of nobles vs. the large population of free/unfree non-nobles which was not allowed to participate in political life?
>>
No. 16704 ID: 2563d4

>>16703
>I guess the majority of my post, which you didn't address, holds no objectable content.
The remainder of your post was predicated upon an incorrect fact, and was therefore irrelevant.

>I'm sorry, I don't understand?
I'm not surprised. Sigh. Let's go back to square one, because this is marginally more entertaining than reloading the dishwasher:
>>His argument is that pedo is banned becuase the majority don't like it
>Which is the foundation of every law in every rule-of-law society, or is it?
We are talking about numerical majority. We are talking about the tyranny of the majority. That is a specifically defined phrase.
>majority of the people with political influence in that time?
>so majority (power)
This is not tyranny of the majority, because if you say "majority (of power)" you are talking about plain old regular tyranny, like when the majority power is the one guy who calls himself Dictator for Life. ToM specifically refers to tyranny-like behaviours in democratic systems where the great unwashed masses get a say.

tl;dr---you tried to surreptitiously redefine the argument to support your ridiculous assertion that law is about increasing ToM effects rather than reducing it.

>I personally would not call the medieval feudal system a rule-of-law state
Which is pretty ironic given that one of the important effects of the Magna Carta was to bind the monarchy to be within the rule of law!
>>
No. 16709 ID: f5fe2f

>>16693
>Oh look, Cruxador also can't see why it might be objectionable
On the contrary, I do see why it might be objectionable. Many people tend to be irrationally* against both genocide and pedophilia. The implication that being against both of those things in every possible case is not a coherent belief system is not at all unlikely to raise objections.

While I actually think Blaank's argument is pretty shitty and unfounded in this case, especially with these additional snippets, the part you posted originally is not inherently flawed. There is no problem with that particular comparison in that limited context besides "lol Godwins law, can't talk about Hitler" bullshit.

On a somewhat unrelated note,
><LonelyWorld> Blaank you should apologize for being offensive
This is fucking retarded bullshit. Perhaps he should apologize for ranting about it and dominating conversation, and making a shitstorm nobody else wanted to be a part of. I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. But the fact that Blaank stated his opinion on a topic of discussion, and it deviated so strongly from LonelyWorld's opinion that he found it to be offensive is not something Blaank is in any way obligated to apologize for.


>Also he believes that the tyranny of the majority is the only reason pedo is banned
You'll note he actually used terms of neutral value. He says that it's banned because the majority wants it to be. That's (roughly) how modern governments work. At least in theory.

>>16696
>How many admitted pedophiles does tgchan have anyways?
People don't really talk about what they fap to much around here.

>>16697
>pedo is basically a fucking mental sickness
Indeed.
>all said and done bam
Not really. There's more to it than that. Mental sicknesses have severe ramifications, for society as well as for the individual. These must be dealt with in some fashion, ideally in a way that is not unnecessarily harmful to the diseased, but also prevents them from causing harm to others.

>>16698
>holocaust-downplaying pedophiles.
The holocaust could stand to be played down a fair bit. It's really the only genocide that receives this treatment. I mean, when was the last time you heard someone talking about the Trail of Tears? Or that stuff going on in Rwanda during the Clinton administration? Sure, there were a lot of jews and gypsies and gays and communists killed in Hitler's camps, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not worse than any other mass slaughter of civilians and political prisoners. Based on this and other posts, you seem to be saying that no comparison to the holocaust can ever be made, even when there are similarities. I disagree, and would like to know why you feel that to be the case.

>>16700
>Anti-Pedophilia laws serve the rational purpose to protect minors from harm.
I agree that this is the intent, and it is a noble one. However sexual abuse of children decreased after the legalization of possession and acquisition of child pornography in the Czech Republic, so I suspect that these laws do not in fact accomplish their proper goal, and criminalize pedophiles unnecessarily.

>>16701
>You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the problem with Blaank's comparison is that it is not factually correct.
That is the only valid potential problem. It seems that your actual problem with it is something like "nobody can ever talk about the holocaust except to say how horrible it was". This is stupid.

>>16703
>Do you mean the small class of nobles vs. the large population of free/unfree non-nobles which was not allowed to participate in political life?
Yeah, he's talking a pure majority, rather than a majority of relevant people. I'm not sure why, exactly.

*This does not mean that any opposition to those things is inherently irrational, merely that most people's stems from emotional and/or cultural bases, rather than intellectual ones.
>>
No. 16711 ID: 2563d4

>>16709
>But the fact that Blaank stated his opinion on a topic of discussion, and it deviated so strongly from LonelyWorld's opinion that he found it to be offensive is not something Blaank is in any way obligated to apologize for.
I reccommend you try that defence in the real world some time. Say, next time you're having a watercooler discussion at work and people are going on about some social unwell or other, try, I don't know, blaming it all on black people. See how it goes down if you then refuse to say "whoa, that was completely fucking inappropriate of me".

>People don't really talk about what they fap to much around here.
In during Cruxador is completly oblivious to his surroundings.

>It seems that your actual problem with it is something like "nobody can ever talk about the holocaust except to say how horrible it was".
It seems you're retarded! Given I even already said upthread that I'm used to /b/-grade holocaust jokes.

>Yeah, he's talking a pure majority, rather than a majority of relevant people. I'm not sure why, exactly.
Because any other use is meaningless when talking about "the majority" setting policy, numbnuts. If a supreme dictator says "all homosexuals will be shot on sight", by his (and apparently your) idiotic use of the term, this is a "majority" decision since 100% of the relevant people (i.e. those with any say in the matter by his/your usage) were in favor of it.
>>
No. 16712 ID: f5fe2f

>>16711
>It seems you're retarded! Given I even already said upthread that I'm used to /b/-grade holocaust jokes.
So your actual opinion is "nobody can ever talk about the holocaust except to say how horrible it was or make /b/-grade jokes"?
>>
No. 16713 ID: 08050b

>>16704
>tyranny of the majority
I have to say I may have misjudged the impact the exact definition of this term had on your argument.

>...that law is about increasing ToM effects rather than reducing it...
I have to say I am not convinced this is the case. I agree the organs of modern democracies strive to achieve this goal (or at least should in order to fullfil the goal of protection of minorities), but to generally say every (not "every" every, but those concerning the relationsship of minorities of any kind vs other minorities/ the majority) law is made purposefully to decrease tyranny of majority... I cannot quite agree to.


>majority, nobles, non-nobles, magna-charta, rule-of-law in medieval england
I admit my fault here. The term rule-of-law does apply to certain feudal societies and societies with large amounts of population barred from political life. I apologise for any confusion or trouble that was caused by stupidity on my part.
>>
No. 16714 ID: 2563d4

>>16712
No.

I do so love wilful stupidity in the middle of what is already a big dumb argument!

>>16713
Assuming you actually read the bit you quoted in a hilariously selective fashion which actually manages to complete invert its meaning in context,
>I agree the organs of modern democracies strive to achieve this goal [of trying to reduce ToM effects]
Great! Because then you've retracted this claim I assume?
>[That the majority don't like it] is the foundation of every law in every rule-of-law society, or is it?
Actual effectiveness isn't really relevant (it's not something I'm arguing, anyway): attempting to prevent something is pretty much the opposite of being founded on it, though.
>>
No. 16715 ID: 08050b

>>16714
Yes, but the first part is pointless now that you talk about ALL the people in a society and not the ones participating in political decisions.

My original statement:
The majority (of power/political influence) in a society is the base of laws in a rule-of-law state.

To define the goal of a society to reduce Tyranny of Majority is also a majority decision (trivial point) and causes certain principles to take effect, like seperation of power etc.

Nonetheless a minority which is part of such a society could feel oppressed, because their individual rights has to be reduced to protect the individual rights of others.

As I already made clear in a post above, I do think the right of minors to be protected from sexual abuse is more important than the right of pedophiles to live according to their sexual drive.

>which actually manages to complete invert its meaning in context
As you can clearly read, I answered to the quote in its intended meaning, although the quote itself was totally the opposite of what your whole sentence said.

However, I do not see the error in this:
1. Democracies strive to reduce tyranny of the majority in order to protect minorities.
2. Certain minorities' rights are restricted in order to uphold other rights deemed more important for society (with a tool which is assumed to be effective).
3. The affected minority feels oppressed by the majority decision of upholding certain values which they do not necessarily share.
>>
No. 16716 ID: 2563d4
File 130912792452.jpg - (246.51KB , 510x1325 , 20050109.jpg )
16716

>>16715
>1. Democracies strive to reduce tyranny of the majority in order to protect minorities.
Ok.
>2. Certain minorities' rights are restricted in order to uphold other rights deemed more important for society (with a tool which is assumed to be effective).
Eh, I'd say that's a iffy way to word it (both in calling all possible powers "rights" and referring to a nebulous "society" rather than the rights of other individuals), but close enough, so rather then sink into semantics, let's go with it.
>3. The affected minority feels oppressed by the majority decision of upholding certain values which they do not necessarily share.
Ok.

Now can you see why it might just be horrendously offensive to equate "we need to ban pedophiles from raping children for the good of society" and "pedophiles feel oppressed that society won't let them rape children" with "we need to systematically exterminate the Jews for the good of society" and "Jews feel oppressed because society is trying to eradicate them"?

Not as some silly Internet overstatement or edgy joke. Sincerely and unapologetically. Again:
><Dylan16807> will you accept 'terrible at making analogies', blank?
><Blaank> nope

Pic related.
>>
No. 16717 ID: 8eac95

>>16716
About him being unapologetically, don't forget that blank is an stupid spoiled brat. And why wouldn't he be one? He's around since the site was created, fucked up countless times and never had to face consequences.
>>
No. 16719 ID: 4183c9

Two points about this thing:

1: Blaank is a twat. Paedophiles hardly need any defending.

2: Banning things is usually just stupid and is advocated primarily by people who would rather destroy an entire country than allow a neighbour to paint their house blue instead of the exact shade of red the ban advocate's house is. As far as child porn related bans go, I'd like to point you to Australia and Sweden as examples of how fucking stupid this can get.

3: Just because Blaank (and his kind) cry "holocaust" when there are bans or proposed bans of his favorite form of sexual deviance doesn't mean they won't support things like control and outright bans (for all intents and purposes, the same exact fucking thing ideologically) of firearms just because of outright liars like the Brady Bunch (or whatever) and hysterical parents who don't want to admit that their horrible parenting is what actually caused their kids to be mentally unstable instead of some magical mind-controlling "black rifle". Or something like full-contact LARP (as in you're actually allowed to try to hit the other guy with your boffer, not just gently tap him and yell numbers). Or collecting historically significant sharp objects without being the exclusive top hat of a gov't-controlled organization.

4: Allowing bans tends to lead to stricter amendments or further bans. Not because it works, but because people don't let bothersome things like "facts" get in the way of reactionary hysteria. Oh, allowing adults to play computer games that have one or more verbal implications of violence? THIS TURNS OUR CHILDREN INTO BLOODTHIRSTY DEMONS 50 FEET TALL THAT ALSO RAPE PUPPIES IN BURNING ORPHANAGES, BAN BAN BAN!

5: That's not two points? If it bothers you so much, WHY DON'T YOU GO ASK LIFE TO GIVE YOU SOME LEMONS?

6: Also fuck this shit, enable automatic noko on all boards or disable it on all boards and allow the email field to not reset after every single post.
>>
No. 16720 ID: f5fe2f

>>16716
Unless I'm mistaken, the issue was possession and possibly distribution of certain images, not the rape of children. Surely comparing possession of images to rape is not less heinous than comparing denial of sexuality to killing? You seem to be exactly what you're railing against, but moreso.

Anyway consider that "Jews are oppressed because the majority thinks this is a beneficial policy" and "Pedophiles are prevented from owning pornography which works for them because the majority thinks this is a beneficial policy" both share a common cause. Blaank's assertion that they shared a common cause is not inaccurate. This validates his presumably intended implication that therefore it is not appropriate to use the majority's beliefs regarding beneficial policy as an unassailable foundation of an argument.
>>
No. 16722 ID: 2563d4

>>16720
>Unless I'm mistaken, the issue was possession and possibly distribution of certain images, not the rape of children.
Ok, fine. Let's correct that:

>Now can you see why it might just be horrendously offensive to equate "we need to ban pedophiles from posessing sexual images of children for the good of society" and "pedophiles feel oppressed that society won't let them posess sexual images of children" with "we need to systematically exterminate the Jews for the good of society" and "Jews feel oppressed because society is trying to eradicate them"?

Oh, wait. That hasn't fundamentally change it at all. If anything, it's made it even worse.

Your second paragraph a) is phrased in a revoltingly pedo-sympathetic way, which sadly doesn't surprise me at all b) is factually questionable (to put it mildly) given the lack of public support in Germany for the holocaust; complicit apathy and a general background of anti-semitism at best, and I doubt that would have held up if the extent of the actions (or other non-Jewish six million odd victims) were actually publicised (although it's nontrivial to judge in hindsight without doing way more historical rummaging than this argument's worth) c) is relevant to sweet fuck all. One more time:
>You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the problem with Blaank's comparison is that it is not factually correct.
>>
No. 16723 ID: e3f578

>>16719
>BLOODTHIRSTY DEMONS 50 FEET TALL THAT ALSO RAPE PUPPIES IN BURNING ORPHANAGES
you know I don't know why these analogies are considered the top evil you could be
I like puppies and orphanages and all that but the top tier evil? Please, that's small time. Why I just passed a burning orphanage the other day where the arsonist was raping a puppy and all I did was frown.
>>
No. 16724 ID: e3f578

another thing
>>16722
>phrased in a revoltingly pedo-sympathetic
it's hard not to be sad for them. They're fucked up in the head and most probably have a ton of destabilizing self-hate if they're not a terrible human being. Of course, it's not sympathy and it's really pity then. Poor sods. Unless they act on it then they can go fuck themselves with sharp pointy objects and get raped in prison. Which is probably what happens in prison a lot. Inmates hate those fuckers.
>>
No. 16727 ID: f5fe2f

>>16722
>>16722
>>You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the problem with Blaank's comparison is that it is not factually correct.
You have still failed to assert any alternate flaw.

>>16723
Perhaps the concern is that the children may come to harm in the burning building.
>>
No. 16728 ID: 835a2d

>>16719
Holy shit wierd emoticon guy has a point
>>
No. 16729 ID: f5fe2f

A relevant quote, copied from a thread on 4chan:
"The truth is not always the same as the majority decision."
Pope Jean-Paul II

>>16728
He has five, but I disagree with his 6th point.
>>
No. 16730 ID: 28e94e

All this over a simple Godwin.

Man you people are easy to troll.
>>
No. 16731 ID: e3f578

>>16727
>Perhaps the concern is that the children may come to harm in the burning building.
Man, screw those guys, what did they ever do for me besides whine and cry at me when I passed by to open the door to free them and stop the horrible man from hurting the puppy. Bunch of orphan bastards, wanting help for nothing. I did get the puppy away from the man though. I kicked it into the path of a passing vehicle so it wouldn't have to deal with all those traumatic memories. I didn't really give a crap about the puppy, I was more angry at the arsonist for being lewd.

You know, that's a bit more then frowning but not much.
>>
No. 16732 ID: 2563d4

>>16727
Oh look, it's Cruxador being blind and/or a robot again. Beep-boop.

It's the huge green bit I rephrased just for you.

>>16729
You actually are pro-pedo porn, aren't you. You complete piece of shit.

>>16730
The sad thing is I'm pretty damn sure he's not trolling. It'd be nice to believe that he was. It really would.

And if Blaank is a troll-by-being-a-depraved-fuckwit, he maintains the pretense with such fervour and consitency that the distinction is basically moot.
>>
No. 16734 ID: f5fe2f

>>16732
>It's the huge green bit I rephrased just for you.
You mean the assertion that it's offensive? That's entirely subjective.

>You actually are pro-pedo porn, aren't you. You complete piece of shit.
I did submit an argument in favor of it (albeit a common and well-known argument) in >>16709
>However sexual abuse of children decreased after the legalization of possession and acquisition of child pornography in the Czech Republic, so I suspect that these laws do not in fact accomplish their proper goal, and criminalize pedophiles unnecessarily.
I'm somewhat curious, however, in what way the post you linked there caused you to believe that that was my position?

>>16730
This is literally called the BIG DUMB ARGUMENTS THREAD. People are here to argue about shit. If providing a topic of discussion counts as trolling under your definition, your definition is so inclusive as to be useless.
>>
No. 16741 ID: 2563d4

>>16734
>You mean the assertion that it's offensive? That's entirely subjective.
In the same way that it is entirely subjective that it may be offensive to say that your mother spends her days sucking off farm animals because your father, who you take after quite closely, is completely incapable of sexually gratifying her?

>>You actually are pro-pedo porn, aren't you. You complete piece of shit.
>I did submit an argument in favor of it
Yes, then. Jesus christ, what nice people there are in this community.

>criminalize pedophiles unnecessarily.
There is nothing unnecessary about criminalising pedophiles.

>I'm somewhat curious, however, in what way the post you linked there caused you to believe that that was my position?
It's hard to see what else you were trying to achieve with that appeal to authority. "The former pope says the majority aren't always right, so that means they're not right to stop me from sexually abusing children."
>>
No. 16742 ID: 08050b

>>16741
>Yes, then. Jesus christ, what nice people there are in this community
You mean people who actually care about keeping children safe from sexual abuse? Because that's what Cruxador's argument did.

>In the same way that it is entirely subjective that it may be offensive to say that your mother spends her days sucking off farm animals because your father, who you take after quite closely, is completely incapable of sexually gratifying her?
You imply your statement is completely obvious and others simply have to agree because of its obviousness(in a more offensive than humourous way). However I think the subjectiveness of the matter cannot not be denied, how obvious it might be for you.
We might consent on the basis of an objective argument, however I have not yet read an objective argument from you concerning this. Your position seems to be:
1. Pedophilia is evil in the eyes of men, therefore it should be banned
2. Pedophilic media should be banned because it causes harm to minors.

To 1: pedophilia is a mental condition (an anomaly of sexuality in my oppinion, due to the following: a) it serves no biological purpose in terms of procreation and b) is able to cause psychological and physical damage via the sexual act with a minor)
A mental condition can be persecuted, treated etc. but cannot be banned.

To 2. Pedophilic media (such as pictures and videos) cause harm due to the following:
To create the media a sexual act involving a minor is needed, which, as I stated above, resent due to the physical and psychological damage caused.
However, whether the ban of pedophilic media is really effective at reducing the sexual abuse of minors reamins unproven.
I personally see it as follows: the ban of pedophilic media does not entirely inhibit the production process of said media, thus does nothing to actually protect minors from harm.
However, as long as it is illegal to produce and own pedophillic media, I would say the production process is rendered much more difficult.

Cruxador mentioned sexual abuse of minors decreased after possession and acquisition of pedophillic media was legalized in the Czech Republic.

The same has happened in Denmark.

I am, however, not conviced of the long-term advantages of the legalization / toleration, since the possession and acquisiton (with production still being llegal) would cause a demand for the production of new media until production continues.

>There is nothing unnecessary about criminalising pedophiles.
The process of criminalising certain individuals should be lead by rational thought.
In my oppinion the well-being of victims and possible to-be victims is more important than the punishment and treatment of the offenders.
Interaction between these two has to kept in mind, since punishment and treatment of the offenders might influence the well-being and protection of victims and to-be victims.
Thus, although I would lay heavy emphasis on focusing on the victims rather than the criminalisation of the offender, I do not suggest to ignore the criminalization of the offenders entirely. In fact, I think it is an important part of a rule-of-law state and the justice system. But that's a whole different discussion...

>It's hard to see what else you were trying to achieve with that appeal to authority.
It is not an appeal to authority as far as I see it.
I do not think Cruxador sees the pope as an authority on this matter.
The quote itself just described Cruxadors position and he gave a source for the quote.
>>
No. 16744 ID: f7ae22

"Wir mußten als Partei in der Minorität bleiben, weil wir die wertvollsten Elemente des Kampfes und des Opfers sind, in der Nation mobilisierten, die zu allen Zeiten nicht die Mehrheit, sondern die Minderheit ausgemacht haben."
As a Party, we had to remain in the minority because we had to mobilize the most valuable elements of struggling and sacrifice of the Reich, which, at all times, have amounted not to a majority, but to a minority.
>>
No. 16745 ID: 4183c9

>>16742
>sexual abuse of minors decreased after possession and acquisition of pedophillic media was legalized in the Czech Republic
>The same has happened in Denmark.
Two (and not mutually exclusive) possible reasons for this:
1: Possession of images counts as "sexual abuse". Photos and/or drawings apply. Decriminalize this? "Crime" goes down, wow, must be a fucking miracle!
2: Paedophiles think "looking at pictures is just as illegal as fucking children, so it doesn't matter if I go all the way". Decriminalize pictures? "Well, I don't really want to get in trouble, I'll just have to make do with pictures."

To be taken into consideration: Is there a legal difference between drawings (fiction) and photographs? If no, then congratulations, your country allows delusional retards dictate laws! What's next, talking to children counts as sexual abuse even if you're the parent?
>>
No. 16751 ID: f5fe2f

>>16741
>In the same way
Nope. Your example is pointlessly offensive. It accomplishes nothing, and is offensive purely for the sake of being offensive. It's still not making a big deal over, but there's no underlying idea which deserves notice. No substance. By contrast, the case to which I was referring was an argument which was offensive only due to cultural context.

>There is nothing unnecessary about criminalising pedophiles.
If that is your position, based on some religious grounds, then that's your own business. But there is no ethical or logical foundation for the claim that criminalization of people with this particular disability can never be unnecessary.

>It's hard to see what else you were trying to achieve with that appeal to authority.
I wasn't actually trying to achieve anything. I just noticed it in a post, and thought is was relevant to this discussion and worthy of thought, so I posted it. I would not have posted it if I felt it to be fallacious, of course, but I'm not trying to use it to prove anything.

>>16742
>I am, however, not conviced of the long-term advantages of the legalization / toleration, since the possession and acquisiton (with production still being llegal) would cause a demand for the production of new media until production continues.
There's a fucking ton of existing media, though. While sexual abuse is impossible to eradicate entirely, it seems to be the case that even with increased demand overall sexual abuse is decreased by legalization. This makes sense, because the desire for pedophilic material is caused by brain problems, and legalization, while it may allow the demand to grow, also allows the supply to become huge.

>In my oppinion the well-being of victims and possible to-be victims is more important than the punishment and treatment of the offenders.
He's not just talking about actual offenders, though. He also wants to punish potential offenders.

>>16745
>1: Possession of images counts as "sexual abuse". Photos and/or drawings apply. Decriminalize this? "Crime" goes down, wow, must be a fucking miracle!
I don't know for a fact that this isn't the case, but it seems very unlikely. There's no real political gain to be had by misconstruing the data in this direction.

>2: Paedophiles think "looking at pictures is just as illegal as fucking children, so it doesn't matter if I go all the way". Decriminalize pictures? "Well, I don't really want to get in trouble, I'll just have to make do with pictures."
Is this not preferable?

>To be taken into consideration: Is there a legal difference between drawings (fiction) and photographs?
In almost every nation, yes.
>>
No. 16752 ID: 4183c9

>>16751
>There's no real political gain to be had by misconstruing the data in this direction
Affect statistics without actually doing anything? There's ALL the real political gain in it!

>Is this not preferable?
>Two (and not mutually exclusive) possible reasons for this
Reading comprehension, please.

>In almost every nation, yes.
But is it a significant difference in practice? There are groups and/or individuals advocating the position that fictional characters should have human rights. Also I've been hearing about places like Sweden actually going (or being closer than balls to going) full retard on this. For example (now that I just looked it up): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#Sweden
>>
No. 16753 ID: 835a2d

>>16752
>fictional characters should have human rights.

I don't even...

What?

>NO MORE FICTION WITH ANY DEATHS DEPICTED IN THEM, THAT'S MURDER

>NO MORE FICTION WITH ANY RAPE DEPICTED, THAT'S RAPING A PERSON

>NO MORE THEFT IN FICTION, THAT'S DEPRIVING A FICTIONAL CHARACTER OF FICTIONAL WEALTH THEY EARNED WITH THEIR FICTIONAL JOB

>ETC

Fictional characters do not deserve rights because they do not exist. At all. Ever.
>>
No. 16754 ID: 28e94e

>>16753
I'm pretty sure he just meant that images of fictional characters have to follow the same standards as pictures of real people (no violation of the local public decency laws, no child pornography). What you suggest is just silly.
>>
No. 16755 ID: 4183c9

>>16753
>These laws have been recorded in the media being put into play in Uppsala: the district court punished a man with a monetary fine and probation for possession of manga-style images.

>In court, Judge Fredrik Wersäll stated that a “person” (as in the definition of a “child”) is a human being. The man possessing the illustrations, as well as his lawyer, stated that a comic character is not a person (a comic character is a comic character and nothing else) and that a person does not have cat ears, giant eyes or a tail and that a person has a nose. Some of the pictures featured illustrations of characters with these unusual body parts.

>The prosecutor and an expert on child pornography argued that these body parts had no effect and that the comic characters indeed were persons.

>the comic characters indeed were persons.

>As examples of what is not a person, the child pornography expert mentioned the Simpsons and Donald Duck.

>On December 18, 2008 the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction.[49] The court stated that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists."

>A man from Virginia asserted at his arrest that after viewing lolicon at a public library, he had quit collecting real child pornography and switched to lolicon.

>In October 2010, a 33 year old Idaho man, Steven Kutzner, entered into a plea agreement concerning images of child characters from the American animated television show, The Simpsons engaged in sexual acts.[55][56] In January 2011, Kutzner was sentenced to serve 15 months in federal prison.[57]

YEAH WELL IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE YOU HAVE NO REASON TO OPPOSE THESE NEW LAWS BECAUSE THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY PERFECTLY SENSIBLE AND LOGICAL AND MADE BY SANE PEOPLE WITHOUT EXTREME BIAS AND WILL NEVER EVEN POSSIBLY LEAD TO FURTHER, STRICTER LAWS
>>
No. 16756 ID: 28e94e

>>16755
...What the fuck? Source please, I have to see this for myself.
>>
No. 16757 ID: 4183c9
File 130922598689.jpg - (56.44KB , 438x500 , nazicard.jpg )
16757

>>16754
No.

"FICTIONAL CHARACTERS HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS" and "COMIC CHARACTERS ARE PERSONS" is the actual wording. Not "fiction should be subject to standards of decency".

Fictional.

Characters.

Are.

Persons.

Who. Have. Human. Rights.

Also just because I can (pic related), this is just like Hitler and Jews. It wasn't "what Hitler actually means is that we should move the Jews out from Germany". It was "KILL ALL JEWS".
>>
No. 16758 ID: 4183c9

>>16756
See link in >>16752.
>>
No. 16759 ID: 25d5c9

the reason 4chan /tg/went to shit is because ALTERNATIVE/buttly is a goon and he is so goonwhipped that he had to go change it when they made fun of it
>>
No. 16763 ID: e3f578

>>16761
can we please just shut up about the fucking small details in shitty comparisons to make them more and pointless, espeically when the point ಠДಠ was making with that statement was just make fun of people using it?
>>
No. 16764 ID: 835a2d

>no violation of the local public decency laws

>Public nudity is a bad terrible fetish!
>>
No. 16769 ID: 6d4402

>>16709
>People don't really talk about what they fap to much around here.

Are you fucking kidding me?
>>
No. 16882 ID: f7ae22

>>16879
The post that would be broken off into the BDA thread would be >>16767 and posts branching off of that. It's a clear derailment from the thread topic, it's not about /tg/ at all, where the post it's replying to is clearly about /tg/.
>>
No. 16891 ID: 62d936

>>/questdis/348925
>I mean, murdering, torturing and anything you could imagine other sentients is sort of a thing humans are known for. Not all of that is just stereotypes due to "your favorite dictator", you know.
Just shut up forever Cruxador or post all your opinions right here in this thread where they belong to begin with.
Everything you write is so goddamn ignorant and presented in such and annoying self-righteous way.
>>
No. 16892 ID: 9feb97

>>16891
>I dont agree with other people, they should shut up forever while im calling them names
>>
No. 16898 ID: 2eac65

>>16892
Don't forget "self-righteous". Because whenever you're telling someone what a horrible subhuman vile no-good piece of garbage they are, it's important to remind them that they don't respect others enough.
>>
No. 16899 ID: 30f0d1

>>16898
Calling someone stupid and telling them to shut up isn't exactly the same as whatever crazy shit about subhumans you're spewing.
>>
No. 16900 ID: 28e94e

>>16899
That was presumably in response to
>>16891
>in such and annoying self-righteous way.
>>
No. 16902 ID: 2eac65

>>16899
That was meant to serve as an example of hate and condemnation, to highlight the hypocrisy of rudely belittling someone while calling them "self-righteous". It wasn't meant to be limited to that exact combination of insults. Sorry if I was unclear.
>>
No. 16949 ID: 2563d4

>>/questdis/349323
>You know, even when folks are maligning the fuck out of you, it doesn't mean they don't want you here. That's just how folks talk on this part of the internet.
That is false, and it is obnoxious---oh, wait, Cruxador, big surprise then---to try to redefine the meaning of everyone else's posts for them.

>>16882
...and yet it is a direct continuation of the post above. I can see your point, but it assumes restricting the organic flow of conversation on a general discussion board.
>>
No. 16951 ID: f7ae22

As I said to the other person already:
>You are making a false connection between normal conversation and a lasting written thread. A normal conversation does not allow for multiple concurrent topics, so segueing into a new topic is normal and expected. A forum such as this is different as concurrent topics are possible due to the use of multiple threads, one per topic. This allows for long-term discussions about topics, and allows new people to enter in, reading from the start.

Having disorganized threads that don't follow their purpose is throwing the benefits of a forum out the window, and it says in the rules of the site for /meep/ "Try to have a point to your thread."
>>
No. 16952 ID: 2563d4

>>16950
Having separate threads keeps the ponies out of the MSPA out of the wiki discussion out of the vidyagames out of the funny images. There's a huge distinction between that and the idea that a distinct thread of conversation once established can't drift about and must instead be anchored in once place.
>>
No. 16953 ID: f7ae22

>>16952
There is not a huge distinction between those two just because you pretend there is so you can shit all over any thread you want. If the topic of the thread is MSPA you don't post about Prequel in it. If the topic of the thread is the state of 4chan/tg/ you don't post whining about the use of sergals on ThatQuestSite/quest/.
>>
No. 16954 ID: 2563d4

>>16953
You are correct, I don't do either of those things.

But I've honestly run up to a barrier here trying to articulate the distinction between the (desirable) ability to spawn new threads for new, disconnected topics and the natural drift of a conversation any more clearly.
>>
No. 16955 ID: 4183c9

>>16953
Then is there a distinction between a thread having a topic with someone suddenly talking about something entirely different and a thread having a topic which leads to a different topic through numerous, originally topical mutations?

Compare "blah blah blah SARDO NUMSPA oh hay PONIES" and "blah blah blah SARDO NUMSPA speaking of which X which reminds me of Y oh really is it related to Z (etc)... just like PONIES"?
>>
No. 16957 ID: f7ae22

>>16954
You are making a false connection between normal conversation and a lasting written thread.
The "you" referred to was very clearly an indefinite you.
However, even if we were to accept that "you" referred to "LionsPhil" it still works, because your claim of "I don't do either of those things." is untrue. >>16789 >>16792 >>16794 >>16799 >>16804 >>16805

>>16955
"Originally topical" makes this not possible to happen. If topic Y is related to the original topic X that doesn't mean a topic Z related to Y is relevant. Topic Z must also have relevance to topic X.
>>
No. 16959 ID: 2563d4

>>16956
>You are making a false connection between normal conversation and a lasting written thread.
I do not see how that connection is false on a general discussion board. Threads here are not like threads on /quest/ where people will be wanting to read through archived versions and there is a very strong line of what is on-topic and where it shall go (updates and suggestions to such).

>The "you" referred to was very clearly an indefinite you.
Well I'm certainly glad you weren't accusing me of conjuring up arbitrary justifications to "shit all over any thread I want", then.

>whining about the use of sergals on ThatQuestSite/quest/
>bunch of links, none of which contain whining that sergals are used/used inappropriately on tgchan
Yeah, that's me told alright.
>>
No. 16960 ID: f7ae22

>>16959
Are you seriously going to go full out semantics bullshit as your actual argument? Here you go, intent clarified so you no longer have any argument.
>If the topic of the thread is MSPA, one doesn't post about Prequel in it. If the topic of the thread is the state of 4chan/tg/, one doesn't post about sergals in quests on ThatQuestSite.

Your statement of "I do not see how that connection is false on a general discussion board." has already been shot down in previous posts.
It's false on a "general discussion board" because moderators (>>16807 >>16876) and the site rules page ("Try to have a point to your thread.") say so. They would be saying this likely because of the benefits that you get from organization and purposeful threads.
>>
No. 16961 ID: 2563d4

>>16960
>Are you seriously going to go full out semantics bullshit as your actual argument?
If by that you mean "am I going to refute the objectionable behaviour you ascribed to me incorrectly", then yes. Not my fault if you can't communicate clearly.

I quite clearly disagree with the revised "you don't" (by which I assume you mean "shouldn't") since that is the topic of this whole argument. I also quite clearly disagree with the moderators who hold a stance which disagrees with mine in this argument, because that's a bloody tautology. That they are moderators does not "shoot down" anything unless you think the point of this exercise is to tell they moderators that they enforced the rules which boil down to "moderator discretion" incorrectly.

"Try to have a point to your thread" has fuck-all to do with being locked on to one topic with no deviation that I can see. My understanding of that is to not post rambly crap like >>13306 .
>>
No. 16963 ID: f7ae22

>>16961
It's not me not communicating clearly, it's you not having reading comprehension. What I said was me using your point. What you're saying is you can't understand your own point and that is somehow my fault.
>>16952
>Having separate threads keeps the ponies out of the MSPA out of the wiki discussion out of the vidyagames out of the funny images.
And my statement is then
>If the topic of the thread is MSPA, one doesn't post about Prequel in it. If the topic of the thread is the state of 4chan/tg/, one doesn't post about sergals in quests on ThatQuestSite.
You don't "quite clearly disagree" with what I said or what the moderators said when you can't make any distinctions between how it is acceptable to go off topic and how it is not. This was the point of me taking your point and inserting the argued thread into it. My first sentence sets this up by saying there is not a "huge distinction" like you claimed.

"General Discussion" does not mean "Every thread's topic is General Discussion." Posts that are not relevant make threads disorganized and hard to read, with no notable benefits gained.


(Bonus fun time: You very clearly misquoted me, claiming "that sergals are used/used inappropriately on tgchan" is what I said you did, when what I said was "whining about the use of sergals on ThatQuestSite/quest/." Notice how there is nothing there about whining that sergals are used, or anything about inappropriately. Your posts were indeed about the use of sergals on ThatQuestSite quest threads. And before you contest the "whining" as well, I would indeed call it whining, as it was a complaint that was feeble, failing to convince or impress, which would let it fall under the definition of whining.
>>
No. 16964 ID: 2563d4

>>16963
>You don't "quite clearly disagree"...
I quite clearly disagree with the notion that "you don't post Y in an X thread" because if I did agree I would not be arguing with you, now would I.

Christ. This is getting tangled into "known unknowns" territory and it's not even bloody complicated.

>Posts that are not relevant
Define this.

Oh, wait, it's the whole argument in different words.

>You very clearly misquoted me
I very clearly tried to fix your apparent intention from context to work as an excerpt. Regardless, it stands as-is: none of those posts are whining about the use of Sergals in tgchan quests.
>>
No. 16965 ID: f7ae22

>>16964
>I quite clearly disagree with the notion that "you don't post Y in an X thread"
>Having separate threads keeps the ponies out of the MSPA out of the wiki discussion out of the vidyagames out of the funny images.
>the (desirable) ability to spawn new threads for new, disconnected topics

>Define this.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relevant

>I very clearly tried to fix your apparent intention
You drastically changed the meaning of what I said, and did it in a longer way than the original text which would have fit in the same place. This was clearly not an excerpt as it was longer than what was being "excerpted." The only effect here is you are changing what I said to fit your needs.
>none of those posts are whining about the use of Sergals in tgchan quests.
>Maybe he could see into the future? >>/quest/319491
This post is about Sergals.
This post is about TGChan quests.
This post is about the use of Sergals in TGChan quests, as the thread linked and mocked is a quest that uses Sergals.
This post is whining. It was a complaint, albeit claimed to not be serious, that was feeble, i.e. failing to convince or impress, which would let it fall under the definition of whining.

>Wait, is this some kind of prissy argument that they should only ever be treated "with respect" or something, and that quests with Sergals in that don't wank Vilous canon are "undermining" their seriousness?
This post is about Sergals.
This post is about TGChan quests.
This post is about the use of Sergals in TGChan quests, as it is talking about "quests with Sergals in"
This post is whining. It was a complaint about the argument, and that complaint was feeble, i.e. failing to convince or impress, which would let it fall under the definition of whining.

Not every link directly fits the specific examples given, but they are all unrelated to the thread's topic, which is the state of 4chan's /tg/ board, which is why they were linked as well.


I fail to see what your intended argument here is. I thought it was against "restricting the organic flow of conversation on a general discussion board" as you said in your first post, but you then say that new threads for new topics are "desirable", and now you are saying "I quite clearly disagree with the notion that "you don't post Y in an X thread""
You have also yet to explain what the "huge distinction between that and the idea that a distinct thread of conversation once established can't drift about and must instead be anchored in once place." actually is. Surely such a "huge" distinction would be easy to explain, so why have you not done so?
>>
No. 16966 ID: 2563d4

>>16965
>first three lines of greentext
Uh-huh. Well done, you've spotted that the distinction in magnitude here is an important part of the argument.

>dictionary link
Ho ho, very funny.
>bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand
Is "the matter in hand" locked to the start of the thread or can it drift? Why, it's exactly what I said this was---same argument, different words.

>This was clearly not an excerpt as it was longer than what was being "excerpted".
It's an excerpt from your post, you dullard.

>This post is whining.
Bzzt. You don't get to ignore the word "about", especially when being pedantic about following exactly what you wrote. Regardless of if you dismiss my posts as "whining", the nature of the complaint is not that there is a tgchan quest with a sergal in it.

The second post is your good ol' fashioned meta-whine. Again, it is not about sergal quests. That one is a complain about a complaint about sergal quests.

Isn't pedantry fun! We sure are getting anywhere with trying to communicate anything about how much topic shift is too much.

>Not every link directly fits the specific examples given, but they are all unrelated to the thread's topic
Change of criteria part-way through? Classy.

>against "restricting the organic flow of conversation on a general discussion board"
Yes.

>but you then say that new threads for new topics are "desirable"
Also yes.

Are you pretending that topic changes are binary things, and can't see that there's a degree of magnitude which kicks a threshold here somewhere? Or that people never introduce new, completely disconnected topics that don't follow at all from any previous post, nor do they want the baggage thereof?

>Surely such a "huge" distinction would be easy to explain, so why have you not done so?
>>16954
>But I've honestly run up to a barrier here trying to articulate the distinction between the (desirable) ability to spawn new threads for new, disconnected topics and the natural drift of a conversation any more clearly.

And since then, when I started this civil? I've had this annoying little mutt latch onto my leg and we've spent the last god knows how many posts on an Internet Argument rather than anything that might try to clear that up.

Well, >>16955 tried, and then appears to have wisely gone and found something better to do after your reply was basically another way of stating "the topic cannot change".
>>
No. 16968 ID: f7ae22

>It's an excerpt from your post, you dullard.
No it wasn't. Read what I said.
>Bzzt. You don't get to ignore the word "about", especially when being pedantic about following exactly what you wrote. Regardless of if you dismiss my posts as "whining", the nature of the complaint is not that there is a tgchan quest with a sergal in it.
Read what I said. I never specify which side of the argument you are on. You are the one that did that by putting words in my mouth.
Read what I actually said. The posts were not dismissed as "whining", that is just what they were described as. The point was that the post was not about /tg/. The post was not about /tg/.

>Are you pretending that topic changes are binary things, and can't see that there's a degree of magnitude which kicks a threshold here somewhere?
Read what I said. I am asking you to say what you think this threshold is because otherwise you have no argument about what belongs and what doesn't.

>Or that people never introduce new, completely disconnected topics that don't follow at all from any previous post, nor do they want the baggage thereof?
Read what I said. If topic Y is related to the original topic X that doesn't mean a topic Z related to Y is relevant. Topic Z must also have relevance to topic X.

>And since then, when I started this civil? I've had this annoying little mutt latch onto my leg and we've spent the last god knows how many posts on an Internet Argument rather than anything that might try to clear that up.
Read what you said. It makes no fucking sense.
>>
No. 16969 ID: f7ae22

My argument is:
You are making a false connection between normal conversation and a lasting written thread. A normal conversation does not allow for multiple concurrent topics, so segueing into a new topic is normal and expected. A forum such as this is different as concurrent topics are possible due to the use of multiple threads, one per topic.
This separation of topics allows for long-term discussions about multiple topics at once, and allows new people to enter in, reading from the start.
This separation of topics makes threads more organized and easier to read.
A post needs to be relevant to the original thread topic to be relevant to the thread. If topic Y is related to the original topic X that doesn't mean a topic Z related to Y is relevant. Topic Z must also have relevance to topic X.

If you are not posting something that counters these points you are not making any points in favor of not keeping threads on their original topics.
>>
No. 16980 ID: 2563d4

>>16969
>This separation of topics allows for long-term discussions about multiple topics at once, and allows new people to enter in, reading from the start.
Yes.

>This separation of topics makes threads more organized and easier to read.
Given that the apparent alternative here is one thread for the whole board, yes.

>A post needs to be relevant to the original thread topic to be relevant to the thread.
And this is the point we're disagreeing on. Specifically, "original".

>If topic Y is related to the original topic X that doesn't mean a topic Z related to Y is relevant. Topic Z must also have relevance to topic X.
The problem with trying to apply calculus to this is that topical shift in the flow of conversation* does not come with neat boundaries. You can quite reasonably, for example, put that thread as X=/tg/, Y=sergals, Z=sex quests, and now there's disagreement over exactly how much of it was too far off topic. You cannot make precise arguments about fuzzy things.

Take >>13426 -ish in the photo-of-your-setup thread. Talking about keyboard shortcuts does not relate to photos of people's workplaces (X), so is presumably Z, and Y is something like Evil's comment that he removed a keycap visible in his photo (relates to X and Z). But I don't think that little aside required a new thread about keyboard shortcuts; do you?

I think there is room for the topic to drift about a bit based on whatever is being discussed. If that means X' slowly changes to Y, and what would have been Z is now Y', I honestly don't see the problem in what is an online version of a conversation, because we are not building reference material or knowledgebases here. (Again, in quest threads, or questdis threads to some extent, sure, X gets locked down by the author, as it should.) If someone comes along later and wants to go back to centering on X, then the thread will probably snap right back quite happily. One of the best tangent-killers in the ponies thread was the release of new episodes.
>>
No. 16981 ID: f7ae22

>>16980
"original" means original. What the starting post of the thread is about. There is no need to put this in quotes.
>>does not come with neat boundaries
If there are not neat boundaries then it is up to moderator discretion and you have no argument because the moderators decided against you in the case of the /tg/ thread. You cannot say a topic should be allowed to "drift about a bit" without stating what "a bit" means.
If there are neat boundaries then you need to define what you think they should be as I have done. I am saying a post needs to be relevant to the original topic. The first topic. The topic that the original poster of the thread creates. Original does not mean current like you are wanting it to mean in your argument, it has a clearly defined meaning of belonging to the origin. The original topic is the state of /tg/. Where the derailment starts can be clearly pinpointed at >>16767 when going by what I have said. The post is it responding to is about sergals in relation to the state of 4chan /tg/, but >>16767 is about sergals in relation to TGChan. While a post about sergals would be related to the current topic it is not related to the original topic unless it is also about 4chan /tg/. TGChan is not 4chan /tg/, so this post is off-topic for the thread.

In the example you linked the original topic, topic X, is "battlestations." Keyboards are a part of a battlestation, Cruxador's intention arguably could have been for the thread to be "pictures of battlestations" rather than "battlestations", but he clarifies the topic as in subsequent posts, including the one you specifically linked. To say that post goes against the thread topic is arguing for one interpretation of the thread topic over another, and the other is the one that is specified by the thread author.

If you want a meandering thread there is nothing stopping you from creating a thread about a more general topic. There is in fact a "People Talking Bullshit" thread, even, and the "BIG DUMB ARGUMENTS THREAD" and "Things worth sharing" are both very general topics that encompass almost any meandering you want. What you are stopped from doing is derailing someone else's thread that is about a specific topic.
For action to actually be taken it has to cause enough problems for a moderator to care, and it is then up to their discretion. Their decision was that the posts in the /tg/ thread were off-topic and didn't belong.

There are two possible options for this.
A. This is all fuzzy and grey area and up to moderator discretion, which means that the posts that weren't about 4chan /tg/ in that thread were off-topic and don't belong because that is what the moderators decided.

B. There are defined boundaries about what is acceptable in a thread and what is not, and these defined boundaries are not up to moderator discretion.

If option B is the case your argument must include what is and what is not acceptable, but you have said in previous posts you cannot. Option A then becomes the only option, which negates your argument that the posts in that thread were not derailing it, because the moderation team said that they were.

I believe these boundaries can and have been defined, and it is only up to moderator discretion to what degree it is enforced. The effective difference between this and option A in my opinion is slight, it only means I would say that you can more objectively pinpoint which posts are off-topic for the thread, and a moderator would be able to split these posts into another thread (assuming kusaba behaves properly and Dylan doesn't need to come fix it) if it was determined to be enough of a problem.
>>
No. 16982 ID: 2563d4

>>16981
>Original does not mean current like you are wanting it to mean in your argument
No, that is not what I am saying in my argument, so trying to spell out the meaning of the word "original" half a dozen times is less cutting than you think. Let me restate that one last time:
You: A post needs to be relevant to the original thread topic to be relevant to the thread.
Me: A post needs to be relevant to the original thread topic to be relevant to the thread.

Ta-daa. The rest of this is going round in bloody circles.
>>
No. 16983 ID: 4183c9

Hey, hey, listen. This discussion is pointless BECAUSE THE MODERATOR(S) WILL JUST CUT ANY THREAD ANYWAY TO SATISFY THE FIRST GUY WITH OCD WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT THE THREAD BEING RUINED BY THE ORIGINAL TOPIC NOT BEING STRICTLY ADHERED TO.
>>
No. 16984 ID: 4183c9

>>16983
...Except of course this thread, because this is the Marginalized For Convenience With Technical Excuse--- I mean Big Dumb Arguments Thread.
>>
No. 16985 ID: f7ae22

>>16982
Me misinterpreting what you were implying by saying "original" does not negate any of my points in that post. You have not countered anything I said.

Your statement of "Me: A post needs to be relevant to the original thread topic to be relevant to the thread." is not a point in favor of your argument that the derailment shouldn't have been stopped and that there is no post you can point to that is where the derailment happened.
>If option B is the case your argument must include what is and what is not acceptable, but you have said in previous posts you cannot. Option A then becomes the only option, which negates your argument that the posts in that thread were not derailing it, because the moderation team said that they were.
If you are not stating what the boundaries are for what is acceptable deviation and what is not then you have absolutely no case for claiming the moderator was wrong, because if it's all fuzzy then it's moderator discretion, and the moderator decision was that it was derailment, and it doesn't matter if you don't personally think it was enough derailment because you don't have any arguments for why this would be, because as you have stated, you are incapable of defining these boundaries you believe exist.
>>
No. 16987 ID: 2563d4

>>16985
>You have not countered anything I said.
Amazingly even someone as moronically bullish at getting into stupid arguments as I still has a limit on just how many laps of the same circuit I'll do before going off to watch paint dry instead.

>If you are not stating what the boundaries are for what is acceptable deviation
Drawing an arbitrary line in the sand would be futile because the whole point is that what that line is relative to is not fixed, not how far away it is.
>>
No. 16988 ID: f7ae22

>>16987
You say "laps of the same circuit" but you have continued to not counter what I say. If you were to continue reading that sentence you quoted you would find out that I already said your stance on it, which is that you are not capable of defining the boundaries. Try actually reading my posts instead of stopping in the middle.

This is a perfectly reasonable thing to believe, but it completely negates your other argument. I labeled it as "Option A" in my post. If you can't define the boundaries then it is entirely up to moderator discretion what is relevant or not, meaning you have no ground to stand on for complaining.
>>
No. 16989 ID: 2563d4

>>16988
>Try actually reading my posts instead of stopping in the middle.
If the latter part of a post depends on a misunderstanding earlier in the post, replying to it can only serve to generate more noise and cockfighting.

>Moderator decision based on fixed-topic interpretation invalidates use of their discretion in drifting-topic argument
Nope.
>>
No. 16990 ID: f7ae22

>If the latter part of a post depends on a misunderstanding earlier in the post
It did not "depend on a misunderstanding", you caused the misunderstanding by ignoring the rest of the post which already included what you "countered" it with

">Moderator decision based on fixed-topic interpretation invalidates use of their discretion in drifting-topic argument "
This is not what I said even remotely. I said your argument was negated, because it is. For reasons which I stated. Greentexting something that misrepresents what I said and saying "Nope" does not counter anything.

Ignoring points does not make them go away.
You said that the supposed derailment was not a derailment and moderator action shouldn't have been taken. To argue this point you must give a reason that moderator action shouldn't have been taken in this situation.
This means you must give a reason why moderator discretion should not be used here.
This means you must give criteria other than moderator discretion to use.
>>
No. 16991 ID: c64b6d

Hello, I really like this image here on your site, and was wondering if I could use it in designing a CD cover for a new rock band - would be happy to give you credit!

Here is the image: http://quest.lv/kusaba/tg/src/128970796742.jpg

Please let me know how to contact the artist, as I don't see any contact info here on the site.

Thanks!

April
>>
No. 16993 ID: e75de4

>>16991
That's probably from the friendly anon's landscape/location collection thread at the /tg/ board. >>tg/314257
Since those pictures were acquired by google search and via other image boards, and since hey were intended for private use only, the source/original artist was probably unknown to begin with. It's highly unlikely to ever turn up.
>>
No. 16994 ID: 2563d4

>>16990
>you caused the misunderstanding by ignoring the rest of the post
Also nope.

A: "Red is the best colour."
B: "How can you say that all hot colours are better than cool colours? Green is totally better than yellow."

Clearing that up:
A: "I do not think all hot colours are better than all cool colours."

Being an argumentative faggot:
A: "I do not think all hot colours are better than all cool colours, and therefore you are retarded for thinking you know my opinion of yellow or green. But as it happens, yellow is pro tier."
(cue huge argument about other colours that neither side actually care about other than to be "right" over the other)

>You said that the supposed derailment was not a derailment and moderator action shouldn't have been taken. To argue this point you must give a reason that moderator action shouldn't have been taken in this situation.
Let's go with this as vaguely accurate.
>This means you must give a reason why moderator discretion should not be used here.
>This means you must give criteria other than moderator discretion to use.
These do not follow. You are atomically clumping two parts of the decision: how much of a shift has occured, and relative to what.

There is nothing inconsistent with thinking that moderator discretion is a fair enough threshold for the former, and the latter is a distinct thing. In your case it's set by the OP and arguably doesn't require a huge deal of fuzz at all as long as the OP post was clear and "had a point". In the drifting case then exactly how much the topic has drifted is fuzzier and, again, falls to moderator discretion.
>>
No. 16995 ID: f7ae22

>>16991
Aidan Mack.
http://www.aidanmack.co.uk/
http://whatscrack.blogspot.com/2009/07/post-apocalyptic-photoshop-of-cawood.html
>>
No. 16996 ID: f7ae22

>>16994
>>In the drifting case then exactly how much the topic has drifted is fuzzier and, again, falls to moderator discretion.
This means that you have no argument against the moderator decision, which means what the fuck are you even arguing about. My argument was two-pronged in order to cover the bases of possible options, depending on which view you wanted to take. What you seem to be doing is trying to argue for one prong and against the other, when what I have done is refute your argument using each of them.

If fuzzy, then it's moderator discretion.
If not fuzzy, then explain boundaries.

Arguing that it is fuzzy only refutes the argument I made for the condition of it being not fuzzy. The issue still remains that if that only criteria is moderator discretion then there is no benefit to argue against the decision.
>>
No. 16997 ID: 2563d4

>>16996
>what the fuck are you even arguing about
I believe the LD-grade retort here is "read my post".

We done? Because this is going nowhere.
>>
No. 16998 ID: f7ae22

>>16997
This is going nowhere because you never counter any of my points. You make inane posts that ignore the points I make that counter what you said.
>You said that the supposed derailment was not a derailment and moderator action shouldn't have been taken. To argue this point you must give a reason that moderator action shouldn't have been taken in this situation.

You have not given a reason that moderator action shouldn't have been taken.
Your personal belief that it wasn't off-topic is not a reason, it is what you think.
Explain why it is not off-topic enough.
>>
No. 16999 ID: 4183c9

>>16998
>Explain why it is not off-topic enough.
If the topic changes through natural mutation, over several posts, then why should it count as off-topic? It's entirely different from someone suddenly starting on a different thing while everyone else is still discussing the original original topic.

If you want threads cut when your OCD sense is tingling just because the current topic isn't the same exact topic as five million posts ago, then the problem is not in the fucking thread or any perceived "derailment". If you really want some strict rules and enforcement of some arbitrary definition of "topical", then why don't we go the one extra step and delete all replies that aren't between a narrow set number of words and aren't posted within 30 minutes after the post they are replying to has been posted - because that would make just as much sense. And why not delete threads that haven't had a response in a set number of days? Any reply to or restarting of the topic would just be thread necromancy, right?

And while we're at it, why not set rules for what kind of tones and opinions are allowed and which persons/identities can and can not be spoken of in a negative manner?
>>
No. 17000 ID: 049dfa

>>16999

>Any reply to or restarting of the topic would just be thread necromancy, right?

No, just useless bumps. Actually continuing an old discussion is fine.
>>
No. 17001 ID: 4183c9

>>17000
My point was that we can easily go that far with retarded moderation if the No-Fun faction gets its way, not that it already is so.

What next, I ask for a flying sandwich from outer space in reply to an equally ridiculous request and I receive a mod reply about the site's rules not guaranteeing me a flying space sandwich?
>>
No. 17002 ID: f7ae22

>>16999
>If the topic changes through natural mutation, over several posts, then why should it count as off-topic? It's entirely different from someone suddenly starting on a different thing while everyone else is still discussing the original original topic.
How do you determine if it's natural mutation?
Why should it not count as off-topic?
How is it different from "someone suddenly starting on a different thing while everyone else is still discussing the original original topic."?
>>
No. 17003 ID: 4183c9

>>17002
BECAUSE IF IT MUTATES NATURALLY, AS IN ONE THING LEADING TO ANOTHER LEADING TO ANOTHER LEADING TO SOMETHING THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL TOPIC, THEN IT'S THE THING THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT, IT'S THE CURRENT TOPIC, THE TOPIC HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THAT'S THE ROAD THE CONVERSATION TOOK.

IT'S ENTIRELY FUCKING DIFFERENT FROM PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ONE THING AND ANOTHER GUY JUST JUMPING IN AND TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND COMPLETELY UNRELATED, NOT EVEN INDICATING REPLYING TO AN EARLIER POST BY LINKING TO IT.

AND EVEN IF NATURAL FLOW OF CONVERSATION IS TOO FUCKING HORRIBLE FOR YOU TO EVER ALLOW, THEN AT LEAST THE MODS SHOULD FUCKING POST A WARNING IN THE THREAD INSTEAD OF JUST LETTING IT ROLL UNTIL THEY JUST ARBITRARILY CUT IT, DESTROYING ALL LINKS AND CONTEXT IN THE PROCESS. THIS SITE IS FUCKING SLOW, IF A MOD CAN'T CHECK IT MORE THAN ONCE A DAY THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY A MOD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO STAY ON TOPIC, THEN WHY AREN'T YOU DEMANDING POST DELETIONS OR TRANSFERS IN QUEST THREADS FOR NON-SUGGESTIONS? OR ANY NON-FEEDBACK IN DRAW OR QUESTDIS THREADS (such as "ilu <33333" etc.)?
>>
No. 17005 ID: f7ae22

>THE TOPIC HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THAT'S THE ROAD THE CONVERSATION TOOK.
A forum is not the same as a real-time conversation. A normal conversation does not allow for multiple concurrent topics, so segueing into a new topic is normal and expected. A forum such as this is different as concurrent topics are possible due to the use of multiple threads, one per topic.

>IT'S ENTIRELY FUCKING DIFFERENT
Saying that it is different is not explaining how it is different.
If I link >>16920 and start talking about how circles are my favorite shape is that acceptable? If it isn't, why isn't it? If you cannot define the boundaries then it is up to moderator discretion, and the moderator decision was that the posts in the /tg/ thread were not okay.

>AND IF YOU REALLY WANT TO STAY ON TOPIC, THEN WHY AREN'T YOU DEMANDING POST DELETIONS OR TRANSFERS IN QUEST THREADS FOR NON-SUGGESTIONS?
I am. I report non-suggestions in quest threads. The site rules page says, "Make suggestions. Give the author something to work with. Fanart jokes, reaction images, disagreeing with other suggestions, long term plans, and commentary on the quest itself are best kept for the discussion thread."
>>
No. 17006 ID: 4183c9

>>17005
>A forum is not the same as a real-time conversation.
Yeah, and people aren't computer machines. Unless your life's conversations are almost exclusively on online forums, then your subconscious will remember natural conversation - especially if you're really involved in it. And if you really are that disconnected from it to not fall into the natural flow of conversation then why the fuck are you participating AND taking offense on any topical divergence?

>Saying that it is different is not explaining how it is different.
It's different in that ONE THING HAPPENS ON ITS OWN WITHOUT ARTIFICIAL AND DELIBERATE INTERVENTION while the other is either BLATANT DISREGARD, DELIBERATE DERAILMENT or SERIOUS LACK OF BASIC HUMAN INTELLECT.

>I am. I report non-suggestions in quest threads.
Wow, that's funny, because unlike "off-topic discussion", which gets cut especially when someone's complained about it in-thread, the non-suggestions in quest threads tend to stay for all eternity - and unlike naturally flowing conversation, most of those non-suggestions are entire separate from anything else, nothing but idle noise that would not be noticed if it went missing, again unlike a diverging conversation cut in half.
Take my quest for example, the last update has only one suggestion, and even it is pretty questionable since it doesn't suggest an immediate action, but rather a long-term suggestion which would play out over several updates. There are a couple of "suggestions" directed at characters THAT DO NOT INTERACT WITH SUGGESTERS, while the rest are just unnecessary commentary. And they've been there for several days.
I don't bother reporting ALL EVERYTHING that ever even slightly looks like something I don't personally fully approve of, unlike some. But your claims of reporting non-suggestions are either false or what you are reporting doesn't violate any rules. Or then it's an issue of preferential treatment and identity bias.

But really, what you are advocating is nothing but No Fun Allowed.
>>
No. 17007 ID: f7ae22

>>17006
>Unless your life's conversations are almost exclusively on online forums, then your subconscious will remember natural conversation
Deal with it. Being lazy is not an excuse to make threads less organized and harder to read.

>It's different in that ONE THING HAPPENS ON ITS OWN WITHOUT ARTIFICIAL AND DELIBERATE INTERVENTION while the other is either BLATANT DISREGARD, DELIBERATE DERAILMENT or SERIOUS LACK OF BASIC HUMAN INTELLECT.
Subjective. That criteria requires moderator discretion, meaning your personal view does not matter, only the moderator's view. The moderator's view is that the posts were not appropriate.

>But your claims of reporting non-suggestions are either false or what you are reporting doesn't violate any rules. Or then it's an issue of preferential treatment and identity bias.
I don't read every quest.

"The mods will do what they think is best. Here's some guidelines on what they're supposed to do:

Deal with arguments and derailing of threads."
>>
No. 17010 ID: 4183c9

>>17007
I guess if I said apples isn't the same as oranges, you'd still say it's subjective and up to moderator discretion, wouldn't you.

>I don't read every quest.
How convenient for you. While you're wanking there being selective with your quests, I've got a whole bunch of replies with only one suggestion which I can't handle without a huge multipost update - which could potentially be a huge derailment anyway.
>>
No. 17011 ID: 641fb0

>>17006
>Take my quest for example,
But your quests are generally unrelated to any suggestions and it appears the only purpose of posts is to fill your attention-meter to a point where you do something funny.
>>
No. 17012 ID: 4183c9

>>17011
>your quests are generally unrelated to any suggestions
Aww, someone didn't get their suggestion chosen all the time every time.
>>
No. 17013 ID: f7ae22

>I guess if I said apples isn't the same as oranges, you'd still say it's subjective and up to moderator discretion, wouldn't you.
Saying apples isn't the same as oranges is subjective. Depending on language, oranges can be considered a type of apple, such as a "golden apple" or a "Chinese apple." However, Malus domestica isn't the same as Citrus × sinensis, because there are objective differences between the two that can be defined.

>How convenient for you. While you're wanking there being selective with your quests, I've got a whole bunch of replies with only one suggestion which I can't handle without a huge multipost update - which could potentially be a huge derailment anyway.
"Remember that the author is in charge of their quest. They can run it however they like, and if they want anything to stop, they can request as such."
Report them yourself. Tell your suggesters you don't want it to happen. I am not the grand master of reporting, anyone can report a post.
>>
No. 17014 ID: 4183c9

>>17013
>Saying apples isn't the same as oranges is subjective. Depending on language, oranges can be considered a type of apple, such as a "golden apple" or a "Chinese apple."
Well pardon my fucking vagueness, Mr President. I should've straight out specified the region of origin and as well as the specific variety and brand of said apples and oranges.
>>
No. 17017 ID: 049dfa

>>17001

>My point was that we can easily go that far with retarded moderation

No, because the moderators aren't retarded and actually interact with the community instead of making unilateral dictates (at least, I do). Stop being a faghat.
>>
No. 17019 ID: 4183c9

>>17017
Yes, because that's the fucking direction LD is going with his stupid ON-TOPIC ONLY, NO FUN ALLOWED stance.
And because you (mod(s?)) do arbitrarily cut threads, and I'm pretty sure several posts have been deleted for the sole reason that some whiny bitch whined about it.
>>
No. 17021 ID: 049dfa

>>17019

No, we don't. Nothing is arbitrary.
>>
No. 17022 ID: 4183c9

>>17021
That's funny, because I've recently had posts deleted - as far as I can see for the sole reason that I wasn't super nice and the birds and the trees weren't all happy and smiles - while none of the posts I just reported, which are at the very least equally "not nice" and off-topic and whatever the shit you pretend to take into consideration, and they're all still there.

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me - unless the rules are actually almost exclusively about the identity of the poster rather than what's being posted.
>>
No. 17023 ID: 049dfa

>>17022

You know what totally isn't being a faghat? Going through and reporting a bunch of posts in a thread that hasn't had a (non-OP-Saged) post in almost 5 months.

Made even worse because, in the OP of the thread, SDF openly states that he wants people to discuss him in the thread while actively trying to bait responses from people (case in point: Sourg Rapes -- which wasn't deleted for the same reasons those posts won't be deleted). They were on topic and contextually appropriate -- and further everyone knows that SDF doesn't care. He's a bit of a dick, but he takes it as well as he gives it.

Oh wait there were also a pile of reports from Joan Quest of 'I don't like this suggestion' labeled as 'non-suggestion' despite the fact that almost all of them were suggestions.

Man it's a good thing that this site doesn't have any faghats who would go around doing things like that just because they're mad about getting moderated. That would seriously clutter up the reports queue and make moderation even more of a chore than it already is.

I really just can't restate how fantastic it is that nobody here is an amazing cunt with a chip on their shoulder who cries about unfair treatment and throws a massive report fit trying to prove that the moderation is unfair and is totally based on the poster, not on the reported post.
>>
No. 17024 ID: 4183c9

>>17023
>the fact that I noticed it at all probably says something about my sexuality, but there's people peeking through the door.
Not a suggestion. Somewhat relevant, but not a suggestion.
>looks like you are gonna be a star anyway. john has the camera.
Not a suggestion.
>John! Upload the film to a free porn site before she realizes!
Not a suggestion because suggestions have always only applied to Joan, which isn't something I should have to explain all the fucking time.
>I bet those boobs feel like lovely bags of sand...
Not a suggestion.
>Damn right they're watching, that was an explicit sex scene worthy of respect and awe. Indeed, if anyone didn't see it they would be forced to live the rest of their lives in a grey haze knowing they had missed something truly awesome.
Not a suggestion.
>Indeed. I'm so glad I got that gold account.
Not a suggestion.

As far as the questdis post go, I never reported those because 1) obviously unlike certain persons, it doesn't ruin my day, 2) I don't need everything to be made of smiling flowers and happy butterflies, again obviously unlike certain persons and 3) they can remain there, displaying all their glory for many generations to come.
But nobody else ever reported them either or mods didn't consider them to break any rules. Unlike, for example, several posts I've made over time, which were no worse than what you can see in that thread.

It's a good thing this site has unbiased moderation and clear rules that aren't enforced arbitrarily.
>>
No. 17025 ID: 4183c9

>>17024
And just to make it clear, the only post that contains a suggestion:
>You earned it girl. Now lets go show off your catch to your grandparents and mother. Need to get their approval as well.

And even that isn't really viable without a huge skip, both in terms of time and location. Which is something I'd rather avoid.
>>
No. 17026 ID: 066785

>>17023
Good going flipping your shit again and ranting about reports that should not be public.
Does your "wearing of the mod-hat" mean anything official or is that just some kinda digital puffing up?
>>
No. 17027 ID: c3c9c0

>>17026

>reports that should not be public

Hah hah, who says that? What law or rule says that reports can't be made public whenever anyone wants? Good going complaining about random shit (and behind a proxy).

>>17024

Your quest lacks goals, direction and any sense of suggestions having any weight on the story. It all goes to "lol stuff happens". The suggesters post accordingly to the tone of the quest. If the quest doesn't take itself seriously, the suggesters won't either.

That's not a bad thing, people obviously like Joan Quest for what it is, but then don't go complaining around about how nobody is posting real suggestions, because nobody knows what really should they suggest.
>>
No. 17028 ID: 049dfa

>>17024

>Not a suggestion.

Informing characters in the quest of things going on in the background of which they are currently unaware and/or potential ramifications of their actions is a classic suggestion method.

>>17026

If I'm calling you a fag normally, I'm just some fag on the internet calling you a fag.

If I put on the mod hat and call you a fag, it is because I am informaing you that you are a fag from the perspective of a person who is tasked to punish you for being a fag.

This has been addressed before.
>>
No. 17029 ID: 049dfa

Oh, and one more thing:

>I never reported those

You ARE aware that it shows who reported a post when the report is in the queue, right?
>>
No. 17030 ID: 4183c9

>>17028
>Informing characters in the quest of things going on in the background of which they are currently unaware and/or potential ramifications of their actions is a classic suggestion method.
Says who? I've seen Reaver take point-it-out non-suggestions into account, but at the very least it has never been standard in my quests and originally Joan worked almost exclusively by taking either the first or the most popular suggestion and running it as is, but shelling out consequences accordingly. And even if it's a "classic" suggestion method (which it is not), or even common, it's still a very poor method of suggestion because it leaves all the thinking and responsibility with the author. You know, pretty much the opposite of the purpose of the quest medium.
>>17029
I never reported those BEFORE. Admittedly I should've clarified it but it shouldn't be too fucking difficult to figure out from the context.

>>17027
>any sense of suggestions having any weight on the story.
Well it's pretty fucking obvious the suggestions won't have much weight on the story when MANY ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE AND THE REST ARE EITHER DISCONNECTED FROM THE IMMEDIATE TIME, LOCATION AND SITUATION OR JUST PLAIN NONSENSE. Beyond that, I often do not directly quote the suggestion(s) I choose to follow.
>The suggesters post accordingly to the tone of the quest.
Are you sure they actually know what the tone of the quest is?
>If the quest doesn't take itself seriously, the suggesters won't either.
So if the quest isn't primarily serious, suggestions do not need to make any sense within the setting?
>because nobody knows what really should they suggest
Then they either aren't actually paying any fucking attention or they've mistaken the quest for a different quest. Or they're assuming there some sort of magical quest standard which all quests adhere to without exception.
>>
No. 17031 ID: 049dfa

>it's still a very poor method of suggestion because it leaves all the thinking and responsibility with the author. You know, pretty much the opposite of the purpose of the quest medium.

So what you're saying is that the entire moderating staff should start deleting suggestions from quests because you think they're bad suggestions. Righty-o. I appreciate your input, but it's not going to happen.

>Admittedly I should've clarified it but it shouldn't be too fucking difficult to figure out from the context.

I considered it at least as likely that you were just trying to play it off as though you didn't actually report those suggestions.

>Are you sure they actually know what the tone of the quest is?

From when I read Joan Quest (which was basically only while it was on /tg/), the theme basically seemed to be LOLRANDOM and teasing near-nudity/near-sexual situations. The tone was basically LOLRANDOM humor based on taking ridiculous suggestions and giving them ridiculous (but at least moderately reasonable) consequences.

I don't know if it's changed since then, but every one of those suggestions would have fit just fine into the Joan Quest I remember.

>Or they're assuming there some sort of magical quest standard which all quests adhere to without exception.

lol
>>
No. 17032 ID: 066785

>>17027
Keeping things like reports confidential, or at least between mod staff, is somewhat assumed as unwritten rule I guess. At least it is on most places.

>>17028
pretty sure it was addressed before as some kinda "voice of authority", useful for putting the boot down at ongoing rule violations.
But you just randomly posted with it during an argument in the Big Dumb Argument Thread.

Or was your rant against reporting rule violations somehow an official mod announcement?
>>
No. 17033 ID: f7ae22

It is up to the quest author to make it known if different than expected standards apply to the quest. Tell your suggesters what you want out of them, and then reporting posts that go against that will be reasonable. Suddenly changing what you allow in your quest without telling your readers is not reasonable.
>>
No. 17034 ID: 4183c9

>>17031
>So what you're saying is that the entire moderating staff should start deleting suggestions from quests because you think they're bad suggestions. Righty-o. I appreciate your input, but it's not going to happen.
Because those were my exact words, right? Pointing things out and general commentary are not suggestions. And it's LD, not me, who has been all for strict moderation. And even in the context of this discussion, my main beef has been with the biased moderation where my posts get deleted if I say anything someone might not like, while any insults and other such bullshit against me do not even get reported (as far as I know).
My actual stance on the matter is that none of it should be deleted or even moved. Anything else is unnecessary, except when it comes to spam and actual illegal content.

>but every one of those suggestions would have fit just fine into the Joan Quest I remember.
Then your memory is not of reality. Especially when the "suggestions" I've listed here are not actual suggestions. Even as things being pointed out, only two of those have any relevance from an in-character viewpoint, which still doesn't suggest anything about the manner in which the character could or should respond.
>>
No. 17035 ID: f7ae22

>>17034
>biased moderation
>My actual stance on the matter is that none of it should be deleted or even moved. Anything else is unnecessary, except when it comes to spam and actual illegal content.
You openly admit your real stance is that the posts are fine in the quest, and as you are the author that goes over the default standards. The posts don't need moderator action if the quest author thinks they don't, and they aren't causing a huge problem for other people (e.g. illegal images.)
>>
No. 17036 ID: 049dfa

>>17032

>Keeping things like reports confidential, or at least between mod staff, is somewhat assumed as unwritten rule I guess. At least it is on most places.

I believe in transparent moderation. I think it is good for the site if the users at least have full knowledge of the way the site's moderation works.

I still don't do things like just go into IRC and list off who reported what post, there wouldn't be a purpose to it. But when spamming reports (and I've banned LD for reportspamming before, though it was rescinded after it became apparent that it was due to a site error) as part of a hissyfit whining about moderation, I have little incentive to not mention them when admonishing the person for doing so.

>But you just randomly posted with it during an argument in the Big Dumb Argument Thread.

Both times I was laying down official policy statements. Quite a lot of people (myself included) actually do not usually pay attention to things like the Name Field, let alone to ID codes. The Mod tag was there to make it immediately apparent that the statements were, for all intents and purposes, official.

To wit: ONe time I was clarifying the site policy on necromancy and how it related to ongoing discussions, the other I was pointing out that throwing a big fit and spamming reports is fagging about. I prefer putting on the mod hat and saying 'don't do that shit' to just tossing around bans. As far as I'm concerned, the fewer bans that need to be placed the better the site is.
>>
No. 17037 ID: 4183c9

>>17033
I have not suddenly changed what I "allow" in my quest(s).

And while I probably should explain it - although I think it shouldn't be necessary and it looks stupid either way - the suggesters aren't even trying anything different than some imaginary /quest/ standard. In terms of a shitty analogy (everyone loves them), it's like the suggesters are in a room with a window and a padlocked door, and they're just tugging at the door and wondering why nothing happens.
>>
No. 17038 ID: 4183c9

>>17036
>throwing a big fit
Because obviously that's all it was and the results don't say anything about biased moderation - and either the community standards or a personal, actively pursued crusade like the whole Seven and Badumb thing.
>>
No. 17039 ID: f7ae22

>>17037
If you had reported those posts with the actual intent of getting them removed you would have suddenly changed what you allowed.
There is no biased moderation here because you are admitting you don't actually want the posts removed.
>My actual stance on the matter is that none of it should be deleted or even moved. Anything else is unnecessary, except when it comes to spam and actual illegal content.

If you did actually want them removed this would be a sudden change in what was allowed in your threads, which would warrant actually telling your readers.
>>
No. 17040 ID: 4183c9

>>17039
But that just means the rules apply according to WHO rather than WHAT. If that kind of shit gets deleted or moved in other threads, then why should my opinion affect their deletion or move in my thread(s)?
And if I get to make the rules in my own threads, then doesn't that mean that discussions don't get cut when the topic changes naturally? And if so, then doesn't that mean that there are no actual rules regarding that issue, except what the "owner" of the thread wants?
And does it apply to everyone equally, or do some individuals get preferential treatment by, for example, gender?

So far all I'm seeing is rules only applying when certain persons and/or mods want them to.
>>
No. 17041 ID: f7ae22

Have you even read the rules page?

"Remember that the author is in charge of their quest. They can run it however they like, and if they want anything to stop, they can request as such."
>>
No. 17042 ID: 049dfa

>and the results don't say anything about biased moderation -

Oh they say something about biased moderation, that it doesn't exist. The posts that were considered to break the rules were deleted (and yes, some of the reported posts WERE deleted), the ones that didn't were left where they are. Even though it was all a big hissyfit, the rules were still enforced properly.

>like the whole Seven and Badumb thing.

What thing is this?

>If that kind of shit gets deleted or moved in other threads,

It usually doesn't. Stupid or Bad suggestions don't get deleted, and there are plenty of posts in both Inidgo's and Flynnmerk's threads that are basically about them being bad quest authors and so on and so forth.

>or do some individuals get preferential treatment by, for example, gender?

Yeah I know it's so hard being a white male ;_;
>>
No. 17043 ID: 4183c9

>>17041
I'm not talking exclusively about quest threads. And the rule you quoted seems to go against your opinions on the off-topic issue and other such strict moderation.

>>17042
>Oh they say something about biased moderation, that it doesn't exist.
Nope. People are still allowed to talk shit about me in my thread, whereas I am not allowed to have any negative opinion in, for example, Badumb's thread.
>The posts that were considered to break the rules were deleted (and yes, some of the reported posts WERE deleted)
The one or two posts that only differed from the majority of the posts I pointed out because they had an image macro attached? And none of the bullshit and insults in the questdis thread? Well color me impressed, Dr. Big Mod Man.
>What thing is this?
The thing where I got banned from #RubyQuest because I made one Standard Internet One-Hand Joke™ directed at Badumb's comment on a gamepad being hard to use one-handed, and then turned to discuss the inherent failings of gamepads with some other guy, with normal internet hyperbole. After quite a while, Badumb said something to the effect of "not being able to take it anymore" whereupon Seven went to cry to a mod with fuck nows what kind of bullshit slant story, which resulted in the ban. As well as Seven often being the first to get on my case over any perceived disrespect towards Badumb, possibly being the very individual who reports those posts which I often see disappearing in the context of Badumb-related discussion.
>It usually doesn't. Stupid or Bad suggestions don't get deleted
And I'm mainly not talking about suggestions, but comments in discussion threads as well as general discussion.
>there are plenty of posts in both Inidgo's and Flynnmerk's threads that are basically about them being bad quest authors and so on and so forth.
None of which most likely is mine, where some of my comments may even have been far more constructive, but are deleted either because I don't waste time sugarcoating my words, or because everything I say is taken more negatively because of some supposed reputation I may or may not have.
>Yeah I know it's so hard being a white male ;_;
If I were, for example, a girl (or successfully claimed to be one), I'd get off easier on several things, or at the very least a few individuals would have their opinions biased decidedly in my favor, beyond any normal support which still would retain a sense of perspective. And you can fucking count on it.
And just to clarify, I'm not talking about absolutes here, like nobody ever defending me in anything and everyone always defending person X in everything and whatever the fuck.
>>
No. 17044 ID: 4183c9

>>17043
And to add to the Seven/Badumb thing, while I was still on IRC, one of Seven's stock phrases was "ignore SDF, he's just trolling" or something like that, where the only condition for "trolling" was that Seven or someone Seven had a figurative (or real, I wouldn't know) hard-on for didn't like what I was saying.
>>
No. 17045 ID: c891d3

>>17043
Okay, just gonna address one thing: We (meaning "the mod staff") do not and have never run #rubyquest. Anything that happens in there that you don't like has to be taken up with the people who do run the channel (i.e. Weaver).
>>
No. 17046 ID: 4183c9

>>17045
I'm not bringing it up as an injustice demanding immediate correction, I'm bringing it up as an example of obvious bias.

You really believe I would've done nothing until now if I really gave two shits about IRC or if I really needed all those "bad" posts deleted? You really think I posted anything in this thread just because I demand something done right the fuck now about some super hot topic rather than just to discuss that which was being discussed already, said discussion then leading to a slightly differing topic?
Y'all seem awfully quick to "correct" me about a whole bunch of things just because I happened to mention something or other in a post.
>>
No. 17047 ID: f5fe2f

tl;dr: Faggots gonna fag
>>
No. 17048 ID: 049dfa

>>17043

You can express negative opinions in bamump's thread all you want. But given that the thread doesn't say 'feel free to discuss me in it that's what I want,' leeway will be given to the thread creator if they say 'hey they're just talking about me not even something stupid I'm doing on the site!'

>The thing where I got banned from #RubyQuest

#Rubyquest isn't even listed as the site IRC.

>whereupon Seven

Is a twat. Everyone already knows this.

>None of which most likely is mine, where some of my comments may even have been far more constructive, but are deleted either because I don't waste time sugarcoating my words, or because everything I say is taken more negatively because of some supposed reputation I may or may not have.

Which things were these? I know that I've never deleted them. After I post this I'll go look for all of these super-great posts in the deleted posts archive.

>If I were, for example, a girl (or successfully claimed to be one), I'd get off easier on several things, or at the very least a few individuals would have their opinions biased decidedly in my favor,

Individuals like seven. Who fucking cares about their favor?

>I'm bringing it up as an example of obvious bias.

But it is not a bias that has anything at all to do with what does or does not happen on this site.
>>
No. 17049 ID: 4183c9

>>17048
It does have to do with this site if the bias from there carries over to what posts get reported here.
Especially if those posts only get deleted because they are reported - as in without report they would either be ignored or go unnoticed by mods. Or if any reputation, real or not, affects mod judgement.

Again, although I really shouldn't need to clarify this every fucking time I say anything, I'm not talking about absolutes here. I'm not talking about some grand conspiracy against me.

All I'm saying is there's a bias here, of arguable degree, conscious or unintentional.
>>
No. 17050 ID: 4183c9

>>17049
>All I'm saying is there's a bias here, of arguable degree, conscious or unintentional.
...And not exclusively against me. I am also speaking all the opinions that I agree with that have been deleted (as in the posts containing the opinions, not the opinions themselves from the universe).

And not necessarily in any specific thread.

Etc, etc, etc, further disclaimers that really should not be necessary, but without which you lot tend to put words in my mouth (and others of similar opinions, etc).
>>
No. 17051 ID: 049dfa

>Especially if those posts only get deleted because they are reported - as in without report they would either be ignored or go unnoticed by mods.

In almost all circumstances, posts that are not reported will not be deleted. The only really exceptions are extremely flagrant violations like shock images and flagrant trolling of the actual quest threads.
>>
No. 17052 ID: f7ae22

>I'm not talking exclusively about quest threads. And the rule you quoted seems to go against your opinions on the off-topic issue and other such strict moderation.
It doesn't go against my opinion because my opinion of the off-topic issue is that the original poster is who is determining what the topic is. However, it is only reasonable to go by the intentions that they make clear, meaning the author of the thread must make it known what they want, they must tell their readers if what is allowed differs from the default standards outlined on the site rules page. Insomnia specifically allowed reaction images in her quests until recently, and now reaction images are specifically not allowed. Weaver specifically said that posts like Yattermang's images should be in /questdis/ rather than in the Nan Quest thread.

>It does have to do with this site if the bias from there carries over to what posts get reported here.
Reports are done by users.
Users != Moderators.
>>
No. 17053 ID: 4183c9

>>17052
>It doesn't go against my opinion because my opinion of the off-topic issue is that the original poster is who is determining what the topic is
And what if they don't say a fucking thing about what they want from the thread five thousand posts in? Because most do not.

And/or are you saying you have problems with off-topic only in threads where the OP has specifically and explicitly declared it unwanted?

>Reports are done by users.
No fucking shit. And those users can easily be biased.
>Users != Moderators.
Oh wow really I did not know that please educate me I would like to know more.
And those moderators can easily choose to just take the report's word for it, or they could check up on it with bias, related to or separate from the report (or even the identity of the reporter).

Do you really read what I say or is it actually that difficult for you to comprehend what I'm saying?
Do I really have to follow every single sentence with seven paragraphs of disclaimers and explanations before you understand that I don't actually believe that there's a pink elephant behind me or whatever the fuck it is you ever come up with?
>>
No. 17054 ID: f7ae22

>And what if they don't say a fucking thing about what they want from the thread five thousand posts in? Because most do not.
As I said, "they must tell their readers if what is allowed differs from the default standards outlined on the site rules page."

>And those moderators can easily choose to just take the report's word for it, or they could check up on it with bias, related to or separate from the report (or even the identity of the reporter).
They don't do that. You have offered up zero evidence that they do that. Non-moderators like Seven being biased does not prove that moderators are biased.
>>
No. 17057 ID: 049dfa

>>17053

>No fucking shit. And those users can easily be biased.

Which doesn't matter, because a post doesn't get deleted just because it got reported.
>>
No. 17064 ID: 4183c9

>>17054
Here's something from your favorite page, the Rules:
>Make suggestions. Give the author something to work with. Fanart jokes, reaction images, disagreeing with other suggestions, long term plans, and commentary on the quest itself are best kept for the discussion thread.
Does this apply by default unless stated otherwise? Or does it apply only when it's specifically stated to be in effect by the OP? Or do the rules only work exactly when, how and why you want and say them to?
Your words are saying it applies unless stated otherwise, but your message is saying that there is some clearly defined off-topic line which shall not be crossed, ever, unless someone takes into consideration the state of the thread a 100 posts into the future in the OP and specifically mentions guidelines for it.

> Non-moderators like Seven being biased does not prove that moderators are biased.
And Seven not being a moderator doesn't prove that all moderators are 100% unbiased all the time every time.

>>17057
>a post doesn't get deleted just because it got reported
Which is guaranteed by whom? And who guarantees the impartiality of mods? Who guarantees that an otherwise passable post doesn't turn unpassable just because it gets reported?

Quoth the rules
>The mods will do what they think is best.
>some guidelines on what they're supposed to do
>These aren't strict rules, everything is a case-by-case basis.
Wow, that sure clears it up and leaves nothing ambiguous. And completely eliminates the chance of, for example, mods thinking "it's best" to give preferential treatment to some delicate flower that will break the fuck down at the slightest frown, or cutting threads when a debate/"argument" doesn't go a certain person's way, or looking into reports with favorable bias just because of the identity of the reporter - or just making shit up and pretending it was all objective just because nobody even knows what the shit happened.

The fact is that I've had posts deleted just because I wasn't kissing ass, while my thread still has a bunch of nonsuggestions (which individually aren't a problem) and now a huge nonsense nonsuggestion rant (which clutters up the thread and makes no sense) which are left untouched.
>>
No. 17065 ID: 049dfa

>And Seven not being a moderator doesn't prove that all moderators are 100% unbiased all the time every time.

It is, in fact, completely irrelevant to moderator bias.

>Who guarantees that an otherwise passable post doesn't turn unpassable just because it gets reported?

Almost all unreported posts are passable by default. Only a post that is actually breaking the rules AND gets reported (or is a flagrant abuse -- spambots, shock image macros, et cetera) will be deleted.

>for example, mods thinking "it's best" to give preferential treatment to some delicate flower that will break the fuck down at the slightest frown

lol

>or cutting threads when a debate/"argument" doesn't go a certain person's way,

lol

>or looking into reports with favorable bias just because of the identity of the reporter

lol

>or just making shit up and pretending it was all objective just because nobody even knows what the shit happened.

lol

>The fact is that I've had posts deleted just because I wasn't kissing ass

What posts were these?

>and now a huge nonsense nonsuggestion rant (which clutters up the thread and makes no sense) which are left untouched.

The other mods are pretty lax on 'check the reports and deal with them (which I do get on their case about periodically when I log in after not being around for a few days and there are 20 reports)' and I am not here constantly.
>>
No. 17066 ID: 4183c9

>>17065
>It is, in fact, completely irrelevant to moderator bias.
Then why do you keep insisting it is not an example of general existing bias?

>Almost all unreported posts are passable by default. Only a post that is actually breaking the rules AND gets reported (or is a flagrant abuse -- spambots, shock image macros, et cetera) will be deleted.
So is "not being nice" against the rules? Because as far as I can tell, that has been the sole reason for some of the deletions of my posts.
And that still doesn't address the issue of something counting as against the rules just because it offends someone, as indicated by said post getting reported.

>lol
>lol
>lol
>lol
Great arguments. Clearly I am proven fully wrong in all things.

>What posts were these?
Some, over time. I don't exactly keep an in-depth record of everything I post. One example that I can mention is the recent post(s) in reply to Badumb's ridiculous "question", which was (were) arguably not entirely necessary, but if necessity was the defining factor, then over half of all posts on /questdis/ - and maybe even /quest/ - should go.

>The other mods are pretty lax on 'check the reports and deal with them (which I do get on their case about periodically when I log in after not being around for a few days and there are 20 reports)' and I am not here constantly.
My "offenses" (both actual and perceived) are wont to be pretty quickly handled.
>>
No. 17067 ID: 049dfa

>Then why do you keep insisting it is not an example of general existing bias?

Because the only 'bias' that matters in regards to moderation is moderator bias.

>And that still doesn't address the issue of something counting as against the rules just because it offends someone,

It doesn't count as against the rules just because it offends someone and they report it. If that were the case, all reports would lead to deletions (and they do not). The moderation staff (certainly myself, and none of the others have disagreed with me in any vocal manner) prefers a style of moderation in which as few posts are deleted and bans levied as plausible. If there's something that might technically violate a rule, but nobody actually cares that it does, why bother deleting it? There are enough gray area arguments in every system of rules (and more detailed and specific rules do not alleviate this, in fact they make it WORSE) that it's pointless to try to just lay down a hard-and-fast system of punishments. By limiting moderation to things about which somebody actually gives a shit, it spares drama for everyone involved.

>Great arguments. Clearly I am proven fully wrong in all things.

There's no refuting fantasy anyway, it's not like arguments against it would be relevant.

>My "offenses" (both actual and perceived) are wont to be pretty quickly handled.

Then it's either a coincidence or people pestering the mods to act in IRC.
>>
No. 17070 ID: 4183c9

>>17067
>Because the only 'bias' that matters in regards to moderation is moderator bias.
Because mods aren't people, but infallible creatures of flawless perfection?

>If there's something that might technically violate a rule, but nobody actually cares that it does, why bother deleting it?
But if there's something that doesn't technically violate a rule, but someone doesn't like it, it gets deleted?

>There's no refuting fantasy anyway, it's not like arguments against it would be relevant.
Because I was fully implying that the things I mention happen all the time every time no exceptions, right? Those things are perfectly possible, even if it hasn't actually happened yet.

>Then it's either a coincidence
Fair enough - as well as likely enough.
>or people pestering the mods to act in IRC.
Which would actually indicate some bias, as being on IRC and being on a mod's good side can have an effect on the mod's actions, as well as not being on IRC removes the chance of any input/justification/defense/etc. Which is also where the aforementioned incident with Seven becomes quite relevant, even if only by the general possibility of a mod looking into a report with unintentional bias caused by the slanted report of a butthurt offendee (as the IRC ban was - although not related to tgchan moderation - either caused by the mod's general dislike for me, or by the ban being entirely and exclusively based on whatever bullshit story Seven was feeding them), not because of specific moderator bias, but an existing general bias in part of the overall tgchan community which may in turn affect mod judgment on the site.
>>
No. 17073 ID: c3c9c0

>>17069

>Because mods aren't people, but infallible creatures of flawless perfection?

Again, you have no evidence of biased moderation action, and unfortunately for you, sarcasm is not a valid argument.

>But if there's something that doesn't technically violate a rule, but someone doesn't like it, it gets deleted?

Nope.

>Last paragraph.

Do you realize that you base your whole point in assumptions and vague theories? Because you don't KNOW the validity of any of your claims and you don't have evidence to back them. You're just assuming that because Seven bitched and you got banned from #rubyquest (which was threep's entire and only decision), the entire community (and particularly the moderators) is biased against you.
>>
No. 17075 ID: f7ae22

The site and its moderators are biased against faghats and being a faghat.
>>
No. 17076 ID: 4183c9

>>17073
>Again, you have no evidence of biased moderation action
Well pardon me, ma'am, let me just log in to my moderator account and go through everything that has ever been posted here.

>Nope.
So nothing I've ever posted has only been deleted because some people didn't like it even when it didn't break any rules? Because if all of those posts actually counted as against the rules, then there is existing bias as similar posts by others in other threads have not been deleted, or then the rules are inherently partial in their vagueness. There simply is no such thing as an impartial rule that does not apply universally.

>You're just assuming that because Seven bitched and you got banned from #rubyquest (which was threep's entire and only decision), the entire community (and particularly the moderators) is biased against you.
>the entire community (and particularly the moderators) is biased against you.
Because those were my exact words am I right and at no point did I use words and terms such as "possibility" or "some" or "a part of", and I was explicitly and exclusively speaking of specific and factual occasions.
>>
No. 17077 ID: 4183c9

>>17075
And the definition of which is...? "Something someone doesn't like"? Anything you don't like? Or simply not kissing ass with posts coated in enough sugar to give the entire population of China every type of diabetes ten times over?
>>
No. 17080 ID: 049dfa

>>17070

>Because mods aren't people, but infallible creatures of flawless perfection?

Strawman. You're talking about seven being faghat and saying that moderation is obviously biased because seven (a non-moderator) is biased.

>But if there's something that doesn't technically violate a rule, but someone doesn't like it, it gets deleted?

Nope.

>Those things are perfectly possible, even if it hasn't actually happened yet.

And there is nothing to indicate that they are likely to. This is one of those 'conspiracy theory' sort of things that you accused people of manufacturing whole-cloth during these arguments.

>Which would actually indicate some bias, as being on IRC and being on a mod's good side can have an effect on the mod's actions,

By pestering on IRC I mean going into the channel and being 'what's up with this, isn't it a violation?' to get the mods to actually check the reports. I know that my response whenever that happens is usually to say 'well for one thing, it hasn't been reported.' At that point someone will report it and say YES IT HAS and I usually clear the report.

>Which is also where the aforementioned incident with Seven becomes quite relevant, even if only by the general possibility of a mod looking into a report with unintentional bias caused by the slanted report of a butthurt offendee

Actually I always click the link to a thread in order to consider the context in which a post was posted before taking action on it.

>So nothing I've ever posted has only been deleted because some people didn't like it even when it didn't break any rules?

I can't say that for sure because I'm not the only moderator. It would be especially hairy if the posts were deleted before the rules were changed to be less retarded.
>>
No. 17085 ID: f7ae22

>Does this apply by default unless stated otherwise? Or does it apply only when it's specifically stated to be in effect by the OP?
It applies by default unless stated otherwise, as the rule after that says. This is the actual stance that is laid out by the rules.
>Or do the rules only work exactly when, how and why you want and say them to?
I am not a moderator.
>but your message is saying that there is some clearly defined off-topic line which shall not be crossed, ever, unless someone takes into consideration the state of the thread a 100 posts into the future in the OP and specifically mentions guidelines for it.
In terms of threads on /meep/, what I have said is my interpretation and opinion of how the moderation and rules page should, and basically do, work. The original poster has control over what the topic of the thread they're posting is, because they are posting what the topic of the thread is. If you make a thread where the first post is about the Kerbal Space Program, the thread's topic would be the Kerbal Space Program. It continues to be the Kerbal Space Program 100 posts down the line, because the topic is the Kerbal Space Program. If it turns out that the original post was misunderstood, the original poster could come in and clear it up.


>>17076
>Well pardon me, ma'am, let me just log in to my moderator account and go through everything that has ever been posted here.
As Seal said, "unfortunately for you, sarcasm is not a valid argument."
Post evidence of moderator bias or you have no argument. You have to point to a specific case for anything to happen. All you seem to be saying is that the moderation shouldn't be biased, and the only responses to that are "okay" or "it's already not biased.", because you aren't pointing out anything to actually change.
>So nothing I've ever posted has only been deleted because some people didn't like it even when it didn't break any rules?
This is what you have to provide evidence of. You have to provide evidence that something you posted was deleted "because some people didn't like it even when it didn't break any rules".
>>
No. 17086 ID: 049dfa

>>17085

>As Seal said, "unfortunately for you, sarcasm is not a valid argument."

Lies and Libel.

I said no such thing, that was that other guy.
>>
No. 17087 ID: 4183c9

>>17080
>saying that moderation is obviously biased because seven (a non-moderator) is biased
Nope.

>I always click the link to a thread in order to consider the context in which a post was posted before taking action on it.
That doesn't remove the possibility of a slanted report causing any mod to view even the context with an unintentional bias.

And unless "be nice" is an actual rule, where the definition of "be nice" is "do not say anything a (contextually relevant) person doesn't like", then several posts of mine have been deleted (and the posts of few other of similar opinion) for the sole reason that someone did not personally approve of it.
>>
No. 17088 ID: 4183c9

>>17085
So where do I find this evidence? Screenshots of the relevant posts with an essay on how it relates to all the technicalities of the rules? Because obviously everyone records and archives every post they ever make anywhere.
Beyond that I can only ask a mod to check (if they even can) and hope that said mod(s) do not feel, for any reason, any need to withhold such information as they might find - and that they actually go through everything and miss nothing, cross-referencing all IPs and IDs I've ever had.
>>
No. 17091 ID: f7ae22

>>17086
Seal is every poster prove me wrong.

>>17088
>Screenshots of the relevant posts
This would be a start. Nothing can be changed if you don't specify what you want changed. If you don't have anything you want changed then there is no reason to argue.
>>
No. 17093 ID: 4183c9

>>17091
And how do I get these screenshots? With a time machine?
>>
No. 17094 ID: 2eac65

Could you describe some of these posts of yours that were deleted in detail? That would help people understand what exactly you're complaining about.
>>
No. 17095 ID: 4183c9

>>17094
Mostly not, and definitely not in detail. I don't document, archive and/or memorize my posts.
>>
No. 17096 ID: 2eac65

>>17095
Then there's no way to tell whether the moderation was actually fair or not. The best that can be done is to keep in mind the possibility of biased and unfair mod actions to avoid it in the future.
>>
No. 17933 ID: 0d88aa

MAGICAL FUCKING CROWNS ARE IMMUNE TO TENTACLES.
>>
No. 17934 ID: 715620

NOT IF THE TENTACLES ARE AN ABSTRACT REPRESENTATION LIKE THE CROWN IS IN THIS SCENARIO
>>
No. 17935 ID: e44eb4

BEING RAPED BY ABSTRACT TENTACLES IS ALWAYS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SAVING THE SOULS OF THE UNREAD. IT SAYS SO RIGHT HERE IN MY COPY OF "MAGICAL BULLSHIT 101".
>>
No. 18093 ID: 598506
File 131710543205.png - (142.79KB , 1579x654 , privilege.png )
18093

So is anyone here stupid enough to believe in the concept of "privilege"?
>>
No. 18094 ID: 715620

>I am a white heterosexual male

Funny, no one's bending over backwards to give me a job. As someone living on the bleeding edge of homelessness, sending out apps every night and day, I cannot believe in it.
>>
No. 18095 ID: 715620

>>18094
Let me clarify: I don't believe everyone is equal. Some people are better at things, some people are worse at things. That's pretty gosh darn basic. What I do believe is that everyone should get an equal shot at doing what they want to do, without discrimination. But everyone is getting fucked in this economy, white, black, gay, straight. We're equal in poverty.
>>
No. 18099 ID: d6ae01
 

>>18093
Looks like a pretty real "concept" to me.

(In case you don't get it: The white dude in the video has the privilege of people not instantly assuming he's a thief.)

It's really easy to think things are equal when you don't have to deal with any of the inequality.
>>
No. 18104 ID: 598506

>>18099
Probably because whites are less likely to commit crimes.

(Time out, mister)
>>
No. 18106 ID: 715620

>>18104
>Implying race has anything to do with it

It's all about location/culture/parenting/societal impacts.

White trash is just as likely to commit crime as black trash.
>>
No. 18110 ID: 9c538a
File 131718296442.jpg - (491.31KB , 1024x683 , 4039735694_59319c757c_b_d.jpg )
18110

>>18094
>> Funny, no one's bending over backwards to give me a job.

Think of it this way. Imagine an island that has 400 people on it. Half the people are black, half women, and half homosexual. Two of the people, white heterosexual males, start beating up blacks, homos and women to force them to serve them, arguing that white heterosexual males are superior to such inferior beings. The other 48 white heterosexual males get targeted by the other 250 oppressed minorities. Since the 2 "alphas" are too powerful to oppose, it's easier to pick on the white trash left over, and since they're still white and male, beating them up is almost the same thing right? You would be one of the 48, and everyone thinks you live on easy street, because they only compare you to those 2 rich guys.

Racism serves to conceal class struggle. The few elite wealthy upper class try to convince people they are that way because of the color of their skin or the slope of their brow. People believing that will attack each other based on those superficial traits, while their true enemies, the ones ripping them off and laughing all the way to the central bank, go unpunished and unopposed. Only by refusing to accept that race exists can you realize that a white man will have as much trouble as a black man getting a job, and the fact that the guy who is filthy rich with all his troubles heaped on other people's shoulders, his path to success stained with corpses, if this guy just happens to be white it's inconsequential. Was Rockefeller a black man? Of course not! But who cares? It's the wealthy who are our enemy, as they become wealthy only through cheating us of our own quality of life, whether black, white, blue, purple, green or red.
>>
No. 18112 ID: ebdeaf
File 131718504909.jpg - (20.59KB , 315x320 , laughter.jpg )
18112

>>18110
>He thinks capitalism is bad!
>He thinks a society can exist without the wealthy!
>He thinks that race is a social construct!
>>
No. 18113 ID: ebdeaf

>>18104
What he said is true. Why is that a moddable offense?
>>
No. 18115 ID: d21c56

>He thinks society cannot exist without property or the idea of ownership!

Laughinganthropologists.jpg

>That other bullshit
http://historyisaweapon.org/zinnapeopleshistory.html
>>
No. 18116 ID: 715620

>>18112
>He thinks a society can exist without the wealthy!

It's more like the wealthy are unavoidable than necessary, truth be told. Sure, I can't think of a society that exists that does not have people who are more successful than others (See: Not everyone is equal but everyone deserves and equal chance) but I can't think of what said wealthy people contribute, given that in the USA they are (relatively) taxed less, head large corporations and only make broad, sweeping decisions that don't really affect you unless it's negatively. Sure, some of them are decent folks, donating hilarious amounts to charities that need it, but more are just useless fucks that sit around making money because they own a business (As opposed to, say, actually building cars, or planes, or treating the sick).


>He thinks that race is a social construct!

It kinda is. In terms of "African-Americans are x, and do y, and need help with z", it's complete bullshit. The problem is, I reiterate, location, upbringing, and culture. Gangster culture is reviled by nearly everyone aside from gangsters, who then feel 'oppressed' because people don't really like it when their neighborhood is filled with gunfights, drugs, crime, and ludicrous jewelery. They're obnoxious, they're annoying, and, fuck, more and more, they're racially diverse, or at least, there are gangs of whites and blacks and mixed folk and women...


>He thinks capitalism is bad!

It isn't - applied properly, it can result in a strong economy, where workers get paid by companies that are healthily competing to churn out quality goods. Applied wrong, it results in a few people getting a lot of the money, and everyone else (Even those helping those people) being shit upon while the company attempts to cut as many costs and corners as possible. It also leads to market bubbles, crashes, and the like.
>>
No. 18117 ID: c61ec8

Race is a social construct that has vague basis in phenotypic traits but has no strict boundaries due to not being an actual biological thing. This can be easily seen in different cultures having different "races."

The idea that inequality is necessary and helpful is one that is one that isn't true when looking at actual evidence and comparing statistics of countries, and researchers such as Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett have written a considerable amount on this subject. The idea that equality is helpful for all of society, including those at the top, is one that also fits with the biology of humans, with the empathy that is wired into the human brain. Seeing someone else happy in turn makes us feel happy.
Even if you truly believe that one "race" is inherently inferior, increasing equality remains the best for society and the human race overall. Humans have empathy for a reason, it results in increased survivability.
>>
No. 18118 ID: 049dfa

>>18113

Because everyone knows that you were saying it just to stir shit, proxyman.
>>
No. 18119 ID: 383006

Why do you people seem to think that you have to be some kind of evil guy to have money or own a corporation? Most of the time it's down to being smart, taking risks, and being willing to work extremely hard.
>>
No. 18120 ID: b6edd6
File 131721848882.png - (24.51KB , 461x693 , 005_B_us_wealth_distribution.png )
18120

>Why do you people seem to think that you have to be some kind of evil guy to have money or own a corporation? Most of the time it's down to being smart, taking risks, and being willing to work extremely hard.
They aren't evil by definition, but as a group the rich have been quite successful in recent years at screwing everyone else over.
(ex: increasing income inequality, increasing % of wealth owned by top 1% wealthiest)
>>
No. 18121 ID: 4183c9

>>18119
BECAUSE THEY ARE BOLSHEVIK.

BOLSHEVIK IS SCUM AND INVERTEBRATE INHERENTLY. I WILL EXPLAIN THROUGH STORY THE INNER WORKINGS OF BRAIN OF BOLSHEVIK SCUM:

IS CARL MARX AND BOLSHEVIK IN TRAIN. THEY ARE IN LOWER CLASS CAR WHICH IS STINK AND FULL. BUT CAN SEE FIRST CLASS CAR, WHICH IS COMFORTABLE AND HAS SPACE.
BOLSHEVIK SAYS: "WHEN WE ARE REVOLUTION, EVERYONE WILL RIDE IN LOWER CLASS!"
MARX SAYS: "BUT NO, ARE YOU NOT SEE, WHEN WE ARE REVOLUTION, EVERYONE IS FIRST CLASS!"

SEE, THIS IS PROBLEM WITH COMMUNIST AND BOLSHEVIK. MARX IS HAVE NICE THOUGHT, BUT IS WRONG. FIRST CLASS CAN ONLY EXIST IF BETTER THAN OTHER THING AND ELITE OF COUNTRY IS ALWAYS FORM ANYWAY, BE IT CZAR OR PRESIDENT OR GLORIOUS LEADER WHO-IS-MORE-EQUAL-THAN-YOU.
BOLSHEVIK, HOWEVER, IS ONLY JEALOUS PRICK WHO USE BUZZWORD TO CONCEAL TRUE GOAL OF SIMPLY PUT SELF IN FIRST CLASS AND THEN SHIT ON OTHERS.

BUT IS MANY RICH MAN BOLSHEVIK TOO. THEY REMOVE JOBS JUST TO SAVE HALF OF WOODEN PENNY IN THE SHORT TERM, EVEN IF IT IS FUCK THEMSELF IN ASS IN LONG TERM. BECAUSE THEY ARE MORON.

ALSO PETA AND CAMPAIGN OF BRADY IS BOLSHEVIK. BECAUSE IS IGNORANT AND MALICE, AND IGNORANT AND MALICE IS DEFINITION OF BOLSHEVIK.

ONLY FREEDOM CAN PREVENT BOLSHEVIK BECAUSE IT IS WHAT BOLSHEVIK FEAR AND HATE MOST. FREEDOM AND BOLSHEVIK REACT AS NAPALM AND LITTLE CHILDREN.
>>
No. 18122 ID: d21c56

>>18119
Also, being incredibly lucky. Being born into wealth doesn't hurt, and what else is that but luck?

http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-business/as-income-mobility-falls-american-dream-fades/1160
>if your father’s wages rank in the top fifth of all income earners in the country, you’ll have nearly a 60 percent chance of surpassing your dad’s status over time. On the other hand, if your father’s earnings fall in the bottom fifth, the odds that you’ll do better than him one day plummet to less than 5 percent.

Most rich people are rich because their parents, very often their white male, upper class fathers were rich. People who start rich stay rich; it is incredibly difficult, if you are not born into wealth, to make your way up in the world, even if you're smarter, more skilled, more charismatic, whatever, simply because of the various societal privileges that the rich possess which the poor do not.
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_LitReview_Wealth.pdf
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/07/wealth_mobility.html
>>
No. 18124 ID: 383006

Both of those articles drastically misrepresent wealth mobility. They track going from the Bottom quartile to the top quartile. Of course that's going to be uncommon.
>>
No. 18129 ID: 78b9fc
File 131735342667.jpg - (235.08KB , 673x944 , idea.jpg )
18129

>>18119

If only it was. Let me try to clarify the situation by rephrasing your argument in computer lingo. Dan the Sock Puppet and You are working at the data center when suddenly

Dan: Holy heck someone's logged in remotely with root access!
You: That doesn't mean they aren't a system administrator. We shouldn't assume they don't deserve to be root.
Dan: Now they're copying all our users' private data!
You: Why assume that they're going to do something bad with the data? It's just a routine system scan.
Dan: Come on man, pull the switch! They're faking user logins now and impersonating people to conduct mass fraud!
You: Why do you have to be some kind of evil guy to use everyone's login info? Why assume this is a hacker? Most of the time this happens because the guy is just being smart, taking risks, and being willing to work extremely hard.
Dan: But--!!

And then the data center explodes.

To sum it up, the economy, the entire economy, has been exploited. Hacked. Compromised. Rooted. They found a back door and closed it behind them. You can tell this because someone's logging on remotely as root (top executives having closed door meetings with governmental figures), they're stealing all your reputable information (the housing bubble, rising price of food) and they're using your logons to trick your friends into helping them instead of you (fiat based currency, tax shelters, central banking). For you, or anyone to assume that the people at the top may somehow, against all probable cause, be pure and legitimate hard workers who built their empire all on their own without anyone's help, is completely and utterly mad!

Sure you can make a semi-good living through smarts, hard work, and being generally helpful. But these people are not just making a good living. They are so insanely rich that there is absolutely no way for them to be that valuable without some sort of shenanigans. If I make 60K$ a year erecting buildings, and some twit on Wall Street makes 60 million dollars a year, there's something wrong there, and it has nothing to do with rewarding people for their hard work. That "twit" is stealing other people's hard work, in the form of massive amounts of currency.
>>
No. 18130 ID: 35e1a0

>>18129
a very FEW people did work their way to the top, but still stole their way to it. most notable is bill gates. i mean, their is a fucking movie about him. he stole so much shit it isn't funny. only reason he so readily admits to it now is he has enough money that any MAD anyone had about those thefts could be paid off.
>>
No. 18131 ID: 3bd8ec

>>18129
Your analogy is so opaque that I can only vaguely guess at what you're trying to say.
>>
No. 18132 ID: 94a68e

Guys, the level at which we are in the top 1% of wage earners is around 300k a year. People making the quoted $60 million a year are so rare that they nearly qualify as statistical anomalies. Don't make sweeping generalizations about the top 1% please.

>>18120
and I really hate this kind of graph. it takes a concept which should be obvious and makes it seem inflammatory and rage-worthy. Of COURSE people with more money have a bigger piece of the wealth. That's what happens to any bell curve when you have a data set with a boundary at zero and no theoretical upper limit.
If you want to draw any useful conclusions, you have to compare one graph to another, different data set, like another country or another year.
>>
No. 18133 ID: 78b9fc
File 131736064061.gif - (90.02KB , 450x450 , l-curve.gif )
18133

>>18132

>> bell curve

Bell curve? Try l-curve.
>>
No. 18134 ID: 598506
File 131736523191.jpg - (292.94KB , 648x4608 , millionaires.jpg )
18134

>>18129
I blame the Federal Reserve.
>>
No. 18136 ID: b10132

>>18129

Congratulations on writing out the most obtuse and long-winded strawman argument in the thread. I'm impressed.
>>
No. 18137 ID: 2eac65

>>18136
I think I can tell what he was trying to say. I'm not sure, but I'll try and clarify it:

The economy is a set of rules to encourage mutually beneficial exchanges of goods and services. People are becoming rich by abusing the rules in ways that cause more harm than help, violating the intended purpose of the rules for personal gain.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but I'm pretty sure that's what he was trying to say.
>>
No. 18145 ID: b6edd6
File 131743324397.jpg - (44.47KB , 560x418 , 1-23-07inc-f1.jpg )
18145

>>18132
Bell curves are (roughly) symmetric around there median, but the distribution of wealth is heavily skewed by there being many more below-mean people than above-mean people. That in itself seems rather messed up. (And statistical anomalies can't just be thrown out when they effect the world on a regular basis.)


But ok, here is some comparative data:
<---
(The linked site also contains rates on income increase just from 2003-2004 as well as the 1979-2004 data. The trend is less pronounced in the 2003-2004 data, but is still sizable.)
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=957
>>
No. 18146 ID: 78b9fc

>>18137

Almost right. The economy is a set of assumptions though, not rules. Assumptions like dollars can't just appear out of nowhere in obscenely high numbers. People are becoming rich by finding ways to violate these assumptions, without the people assuming being aware they just got carnied. Other than that it's a good summary of what I feel is going on.
>>
No. 18147 ID: 2eac65

>>18146
In a way, assumptions and rules are the same thing. At least, when you're talking about human social constructs. People come up with assumptions to make their lives easier, like "nobody will take this pie before I eat it", and then come up with rules to ensure them, like "don't take things that belong to other people".

In a way, the laws of nature and the laws of Man have more in common than their fundamental differences would imply. One is something that just happens and the other is something we choose to make true, but we rely on both to make decisions for the sake of people's safety.

But that's pushing the boundary between "philosophy" and "semantics".
>>
No. 18154 ID: c891d3

>>18145
Income distributions are Pareto distributions.

(As are population distributions. Handful of extremely large cities; thousands of small towns.)
>>
No. 18158 ID: 84b916

HEY EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.
The top 1% have so much wealth, because legally corporations are counted as people, and there's only hundreds of corporations compared to the millions of actual humans.
Welcome to the world of skewed statistics.
>>
No. 18161 ID: 78b9fc
File 131761707245.gif - (2.46MB , 320x179 , darn.gif )
18161

>>18158

If only that was true. Even if you ignore corporations, individual income, and net worth, is ridiculously skewed. It's true that accounting for such stuff is harder because the richest hide behind anonymizing investment firms like Janus Corp, but it's also true that in 2005 BP Capital Management's T. Boone Pickens made 1.4 billion dollars from a couple of hedge funds he was managing. That makes his work equivalent to the work of 44,871 human beings working full time at $15 an hour all year. Do you really think he was doing as much as 44,871 people could do to help you? And this random math whiz named James Simon beat him at it making 1.5 billion dollars that year! You can't argue with numbers like that. A math whiz, who honestly earned 48,076 times as much as his fellow man, and did not cook the books at all? If you believe that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!
>>
No. 18162 ID: 3bd8ec

>>18161
It's almost as though you don't know what a hedge fund is, how it works, or the way in which a manager makes money off of it.
>>
No. 18168 ID: 78b9fc
File 131769020574.jpg - (51.08KB , 620x400 , Teddy-bear_1448668i.jpg )
18168

>>18162

It's almost as if you typed that entire sentence without giving any information at all on how hedge fund managers make money off a hedge fund. The article I read said they made 1.5 billion, implying that the value of the actual hedge fund was much greater. My guess would be that the fund was somehow (via hax) increased by 7.5 billion dollars that year, of which the 20% performance fee would net 1.5 billion dollars. If you know of some economical wizardry by which 1.5 billion dollars isn't really all that much money, please do enlighten this poor ignorant soul.
>>
No. 18172 ID: 953355

>>18168
Let me see if I follow your argument here. You accept that it's possible to legitimately earn a huge pile of money if you legitimately raise the portfolio value. But you think that he cooked the books to raise the value instead.

You're aware stocks naturally go up, right? And fees exist that aren't performance-based.

Still, I commend you for abandoning that ridiculous argument that depends on people making money proportional to the amount of work they do. A quick glance at major sports income easily disproves that, with no foul play involved.
>>
No. 18173 ID: d21c56

>>18172
But that says nothing about whether such ridiculous pay is justified or not.
>>
No. 18174 ID: 78b9fc
File 131776662908.jpg - (247.71KB , 1024x714 , 5249130906_cfa0702179_b.jpg )
18174

>>18172

It's not the work they do. That's Marxian idiocy. With that kind of thinking we'll have a ton of people working their asses off and not accomplishing anything! Which is... kind of like... what we have today...

Forget work. It's how much they help you. How much you can count on them determines how much you value them. All the dollars and stocks and 1.5 billions they have cannot change that. If you let it, you are a fool, and sadly we are all something of a fool. But the amount someone works doesn't matter as long as it does you good in the end. In fact if they work less for the same reward, then they may even be able to help you more than if they worked hard!

I mean, you seriously think that some twit on Wall Street is helping you more than 44,871 of me? (Technically I make less than $10 an hour, so even more.) That's impossible. James Simon won't even talk to you, much less debate with you. I'm way more helpful to you than he is, just by coming to tgchan at all. I'm actually (very slightly) more valuable than he is! Did James Simon ever show you any cute ferret pictures, huh? But if you accept that money has any value whatsoever, then not only do you value James more than me, you value him more than 45K of me, which is probably more than the total number of visitors to tgchan. You have to ask yourself, if I had to choose between tgchan and James Simon being wiped off the map, would I choose James Simon? If the answer is no, then clearly James couldn't possibly have earned all that money through being incredibly helpful to you.

In making 1.5 billion dollars James Simon has accomplished exactly nothing. In making 1.5 billion dollars of a currency that you value, use and depend on, he has effectively hacked you. And anyone who trusts money. i.e. the entire economy. It's not whether he came to that money "legitimately" or not by the rules that someone has set somewhere and claimed that we should all accept as fair. It's whether the money he did make represents some assistance he's given to all the people who recognize it. And obviously, unless we're in a superhero comic book, he couldn't possibly be 44,871 times greater than your average joe. To anyone.
>>
No. 18176 ID: 365adf

>>18174
I meant work as in output, not input. Sorry for not clarifying.

But you're throwing strawmen around about the value of labor. A system can pay disproportionate salaries to people without even being unfair. Different people value things differently, some jobs lack in supply which boosts pay, etc.

Do you have evidence that his customers don't value his work equivalent to what he charged?

Let's take a step back here. I do 1 unit of work. I can replicate it infinitely. I sell it at a small price. Let's say it's a song. If I go from 100 customers to 100 million customers am I now a leeching jackass? Because I did the same thing for a whole lot of people and raked in a fortune?
>>
No. 18179 ID: 78b9fc
File 131777815320.jpg - (273.76KB , 800x531 , 5003296184_89a78bcee3_b.jpg )
18179

>>18176

I prefer to use the term "use" instead of "value." The difference is that use can change retroactively, i.e. after you realize you just spent $60 on a ticket to something you didn't enjoy. That clears up most problems of "disproportionate" salaries. If you truly can engage in sports without regret or buyer remorse, then so be it. I don't think that's possible though, not unless there exists a certain priviliged elite caste that pushes their regret on other people. And I don't want that kind of person to exist.

As for evidence, a man is running out of a bank wearing a ski mask and carrying a loaded firearm with a huge sack of money thrown over his shoulder, and you want me to provide evidence that he wasn't making an ordinary voluntary withdrawal? How about this: as one of James's customers (and we all are) I am extremely unsatisfied with his service. I think he should stop stealing 8 billion dollars from us, and taking 1.5 million dollars on the top, while spreading around the remaining 6 billion to placate his partners in crime.

>>18178

Nevertheless you can estimate. If we aren't even making our best guess as to someone's contribution or someone's reliability, that's even worse than if we do. I would like us to do so, and then we can see about finding more accurate ways to do so.
>>
No. 18183 ID: 715620

>>18179
>As for evidence, a man is running out of a bank wearing a ski mask and carrying a loaded firearm with a huge sack of money thrown over his shoulder, and you want me to provide evidence that he wasn't making an ordinary voluntary withdrawal?

How is he carrying a loaded firearm? Your entire argument seems to be "He makes a load of dosh, theretofore, he is a criminal."

There are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to start.
>>
No. 18185 ID: 049dfa

>I mean, you seriously think that some twit on Wall Street is helping you more than 44,871 of me?

Me? No. Other people? Probably. There's a pretty good chance of it, in fact.

Of course, you certainly aren't helping me any more than he is. Simply existing in someone's presence does not necessarily improve anything about their life. You have to fucking do something.

>In making 1.5 billion dollars James Simon has accomplished exactly nothing. In making 1.5 billion dollars of a currency that you value, use and depend on, he has effectively hacked you.

No, he hasn't. Making Money through legitimate means is something that tons of people do every single day. Whether or not I value their contributions is irrelevant to this.

>You have to ask yourself, if I had to choose between tgchan and James Simon being wiped off the map, would I choose James Simon? If the answer is no, then clearly James couldn't possibly have earned all that money through being incredibly helpful to you.

It's about time to make some fucking sense. Slow down, think about what you are typing, and say something that actually has some goddamn relevance to anything. He doesn't have to be helpful to me to have earned his money. There has never been a gas station attendant who has been helpful to me at all. Are they stealing from me by virtue of having a shitty minimum wage paycheck?

>As for evidence, a man is running out of a bank wearing a ski mask and carrying a loaded firearm with a huge sack of money thrown over his shoulder, and you want me to provide evidence that he wasn't making an ordinary voluntary withdrawal

Yes. Now do it or shut the fuck up about it.

I'm serious, btw.

>How about this: as one of James's customers (and we all are) I am extremely unsatisfied with his service. I think he should stop stealing 8 billion dollars from us, and taking 1.5 million dollars on the top, while spreading around the remaining 6 billion to placate his partners in crime.

lol

>I'm way more helpful to you than he is, just by coming to tgchan at all.

lol.
>>
No. 18186 ID: 55c4cf

this just in, evidence now means anecdote strawman comparison. alternatively, not having any whatsoever.

justice is finally served
>>
No. 18187 ID: b6edd6

Can you guys stop using metaphors as arguments?
They just lead to bickering about how the metaphor does not work (which is even more pointless than the normal bickering), and generally obscure or distort the actual intended point.
>>
No. 18188 ID: 953355

>>18179
You don't think it's possible for someone to legitimately get enjoyment out of a sports ticket without being some kind of 'privileged elite' that pushes their regret onto others? Is that how I'm supposed to read your words, because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

We are not all James' customers. And-- look. You may think there are problems with the stock market system, but blame those, don't blame profits in the abstract.

I ask you my question again. If take one legitimate unit of labor and sell it to 100 million people at the same time, am I a bad person? Because if not then I just found a way to make massive ethical profits.
>>
No. 18190 ID: b6edd6

>>18188
I think it is legitimate to make lots of money based off of talent.

I would say the part of the wealth distribution system I object to is the part where you can easily profit based on the things that you own rather than the things that you do.
Unless you are extremely unlucky or foolish, simply possessing wealth makes it much easier to acquire money, and I would call that unfair considering the fact that the effect (and its inverse) snowballs over generations.

I will, however, readily agree that nobody has thought up a large scale system that is less awful than capitalism is.
>>
No. 18192 ID: 3bd8ec

>>18191
The Nordic model is mixed market, not socialist. The sectors that aren't managed by the government (i.e. most of them) are quite capitalist.
>>
No. 18196 ID: b6edd6

>>18191
By capitalism I mean capitalism and its various modified forms (some of which are better than others), not just complete capitalism (which runs into a series of huge issues).
>>
No. 18215 ID: 598506

Free market capitalism is inherent to freedom. If you hate capitalism, you hate freedom. Discuss.
>>
No. 18217 ID: 598506

>>18216
Government use of force to coerce freedom is no freedom at all.
>>
No. 18218 ID: 4bdd79

>>18215
We tried free-market capitalism. It did not work out at all.
>>
No. 18220 ID: f2abea
File 131803561924.gif - (51.03KB , 90x90 , viking.gif )
18220

You know what really pisses me off?

vikings.

always raiding, ruining my shit right after I build it. I went through 3 wives the past year alone! This can't keep going like this. How am I supposed to build as sustainable economy like this?
>>
No. 18221 ID: 0d7a83

Get boat. Become a Viking.
>>
No. 18228 ID: f2abea

>>18221
I dont have a boat or wood because those fucking vikings keep burning that shit down.
>>
No. 18229 ID: 4bdd79

>>18228
Create a brewery. Bribe them into leaving you alone.

Alternatively, stop living on the coast.
>>
No. 18230 ID: 598506

>>18218
>implying this is true
Thank God for minimum wage, amirite?
>>
No. 18232 ID: 1444d5

>>18229
>Paying the Danegeld
Yeah, that always works out just peachy.
>>
No. 18234 ID: 4bdd79

>>18230
Yes!
>>
No. 18236 ID: de7eea

>>18215
Laws are not the only thing that limit freedom. The inability to afford something can limit freedom as easily as a law can.
Complete free market economies tend to lead towards many people being very poor (see: Victorian England), and thus having their viable choices in life (and therefore there freedom) limited.
There comes a point where the distribution of wealth causes significantly more average reduction of freedom than government regulations do.

Total-free-market economies also fail to deal with externalities, because doing so is 'burdensome regulation'.
For example, being unable to drink your own tap water due to nearby natural gas drilling limits your freedom.
>>
No. 18237 ID: 4bdd79

>>18236
This is basically what I meant by >>18218.
>>
No. 18238 ID: 598506

>>18236
>>18236
>Laws are not the only thing that limit freedom. The inability to afford something can limit freedom as easily as a law can.
You have the freedom to work harder to make enough money to purchase said good. You are free to not buy it. The ability to own goods is not a matter of freedom; the capacity to purchase a good is therefore not a matter of freedom. For if all men were "free" to have whatever goods they wanted, we would not have an economy.

>Complete free market economies tend to lead towards many people being very poor (see: Victorian England), and thus having their viable choices in life (and therefore there freedom) limited.
The creation of wealth makes everyone richer. Victorian England being poor has more to do with society and less to do with free market capitalism.

But, hey, if workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they have a few options.

1. Work elsewhere.
2. Start up their own business.
3. Unionize.

Freedom is a wonderful thing.

>There comes a point where the distribution of wealth causes significantly more average reduction of freedom than government regulations do.
lol

>For example, being unable to drink your own tap water due to nearby natural gas drilling limits your freedom.
And in that case, the people could file for legal action against the natural gas drilling company because they are polluting THEIR water.
>>
No. 18240 ID: 4bdd79

>>18238
>You have the freedom to work harder to make enough money to purchase said good. You are free to not buy it. The ability to own goods is not a matter of freedom; the capacity to purchase a good is therefore not a matter of freedom. For if all men were "free" to have whatever goods they wanted, we would not have an economy.
Oh god, you really are one of those people. I really don't know where to start with this line, mostly because it's somewhat of a strawman.

>The creation of wealth makes everyone richer. Victorian England being poor has more to do with society and less to do with free market capitalism.
So you're saying that economic trouble has nothing to do with the economy. Okay.

>But, hey, if workers feel they are being treated unfairly, they have a few options.

>1. Work elsewhere.
Every available job has basically the same conditions.
>2. Start up their own business.
With what money?
>3. Unionize.
Weeeelll... maybe. Depends on if the existing laws actually allow for such an entity (until the late 1800s they didn't really).

>Freedom is a wonderful thing.
Yes, the freedom to screw over your employees is wonderful.

>lol
What a remarkably clever rebuttal.

>And in that case, the people could file for legal action against the natural gas drilling company because they are polluting THEIR water.
Wait what? I thought you were arguing against the regulation of business.
>>
No. 18241 ID: 598506

>>18239
Government use of force to PROTECT freedom is different from government use of force to COERCE freedom.

>>18240
>Every available job has basically the same conditions.
lolno

>With what money?
Private loans.

>Wait what? I thought you were arguing against the regulation of business.
There's a difference between "regulating business" and "safeguarding the rights of others." Because you confuse the two, you can't understand my position.
>>
No. 18243 ID: de7eea

>You have the freedom to work harder to make enough money to purchase said good.
Are you saying that hard work is the main factor that determines your wealth?

>You are free to not buy it. The ability to own goods is not a matter of freedom; the capacity to purchase a good is therefore not a matter of freedom. For if all men were "free" to have whatever goods they wanted, we would not have an economy.
I measure freedom by what you can actually do, not what you might potentially do.
If you cannot afford a house, it matters little whether it is legal for you to buy that house.


>1. Work elsewhere.
Working elsewhere is only viable if you are sure you can get a job elsewhere. Given the number of people unable to get a job at all, this seems unreliable at best for people who are not specialists.

>2. Start up their own business.
Large companies have numerous advantages to small businesses in a free market (More efficiency from mass production, more advertisement, brand recognition), so the chance of successfully becoming wealthy from a start-up is fairly low.

>3. Unionize.
This one can work, provided you have the laws in place to stop anti-union actions by the company.

>And in that case, the people could file for legal action against the natural gas drilling company because they are polluting THEIR water.
Relying on the victims to sue means
- The victims spend huge amounts of money if they loose the case. If they borrow that money, they are in danger of being sunk into debt if they do not win.
- The victims spend the time it takes for a protracted legal battle whether or not they end up winning
Because of these, the risk of being sued is often less then the reward of using harmful but profitable practices.
>>
No. 18244 ID: 0ef5d9

>>18240
>Oh god, you really are one of those people. I really don't know where to start with this line, mostly because it's somewhat of a strawman.

...No, the bit about victorian england and economic limits to freedom was a straw man. The comment you are complaining about was an attempt, though not a perfect one, at pointing out WHY the original argument is a poor one. "Freedom" and free-market economies have only the slightest of intersections in informed debate, despite the similarities in name. One is an ill-defined blanket term covering a set of laws which is theoretically consistent across all socioeconomic lines, relative lack of state control of media, relative lack of state surveillance (privacy), relative lack of state mandated choices, relatively lax punishment for most crimes, relatively light state direction on industry and development, and for no reason having to do with a definition, democratically elected governments where everyone* gets a vote. Or at least the appearance of same. Free-market economies only touch on one, maybe two of those points, and are totally possible in many societies and government systems which are not otherwise considered "free." Victorian England among them.


*Excluding the young, the homeless, illegal and temporary residents, those with a criminal record, and those deemed by an arbitrary standard not to be of sound mind.
>>
No. 18247 ID: de7eea

>>18244
[pedant] That isn't a strawman, it is (assuming for the moment that my argument was wrong) faulty premises (specifically, the definition of 'freedom').[/pedant]

Are you saying that freedom not an issue in this discussion? (Seriously, I can't tell.)

If not, explain why
limits on some people's behavior (by the government on companies being regulated)
are morally worse than
limits on some people's behavior (by the economy on the poor who can't afford things)?
>>
No. 18248 ID: 4bdd79

Okay yeah I apparently have no idea what he is arguing so I'm out of here.
>>
No. 18250 ID: 598506

>>18243
>Are you saying that hard work is the main factor that determines your wealth?
No, I'm saying if you work hard, you're not going to be a poorfag. You might not be rich, but you're not going to be gutter-trash poor.

>I measure freedom by what you can actually do, not what you might potentially do.
>If you cannot afford a house, it matters little whether it is legal for you to buy that house.
Your definition of freedom is flawed.

>Working elsewhere is only viable if you are sure you can get a job elsewhere. Given the number of people unable to get a job at all, this seems unreliable at best for people who are not specialists.
Then wait until you get another job to quit.

>Large companies have numerous advantages to small businesses in a free market (More efficiency from mass production, more advertisement, brand recognition), so the chance of successfully becoming wealthy from a start-up is fairly low.
No. This is the opposite of true. Large businesses have more advantages than small businesses in an unfree market, hence the corporate dominance of America. Large businesses can soak the costs of mandatory wage increases and environmental regulations whereas small businesses cannot.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about.

>This one can work, provided you have the laws in place to stop anti-union actions by the company.
Implying that the government has the right to stop businesses from hiring strikebreakers. Sorry, no, your paradigm leads to the incestuous relationship between unions and government (and before you start bleating, I am firmly against the incestuous relationship between business and government that we currently have in America).

>Because of these, the risk of being sued is often less then the reward of using harmful but profitable practices.
And yet it's better than your proposed system which assures corporate dominance.
>>
No. 18252 ID: d60822

>>18250
>Your definition of freedom is flawed.
Seems pretty legit to me, bro.

>Then wait until you get another job to quit.
That's not viable for everyone either.

>No. This is the opposite of true. Large businesses have more advantages than small businesses in an unfree market, hence the corporate dominance of America.
First of all, nothing you said contradicts what he said. Large businesses having an advantage in one situation does not also mean they can't have an advantage in a different situation.
Secondly, you're making assumptions that don't necessarily hold true. An "unfree market" is merely one where some form of intervention is in place. This is a vast, potentially limitless array of possibilities.
>Large businesses can soak the costs of mandatory wage increases and environmental regulations whereas small businesses cannot.
Can you cite this claim? These seem to me like they're costs that would scale pretty linearly.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that both of those regulations, as well as most others, are pretty easily ignored by small businesses, but large businesses are far more heavily scrutinized.
>>
No. 18253 ID: 598506

>>18252
>>18252
Large corporations have the law on their side. As in, they can buy politicians the government's favor. Look at GM, for instance. They get bailed out when they're about to fail. Or even McDonald's. They applied for a waiver for Obamacare and got it. Do you think the Mom and Pop store down the road is going to get a waiver for Obamacare? No, they're stuck paying the fine or eating the costs of health insurance.

http://smallbiztrends.com/2010/09/small-businesses-hit-harder-by-regulations.html

Seriously. I'm not lying about this stuff. I hate the abuses of corporate power in America, and I'd like to see some skulls cracked for how they run roughshod over the economy. I also want to fix the problem permanently. Even well-meaning regulations turn against us.
>>
No. 18255 ID: 35e1a0

only way would be some incorruptible judge dread guy who pops up and murders politicians who trade those waivers for large somes of cash. also lower their wages back to normal.
>>
No. 18258 ID: b6edd6

>No, I'm saying if you work hard, you're not going to be a poorfag. You might not be rich, but you're not going to be gutter-trash poor.
Doesn't fact that there is unemployment contradict that? (Unemployment refers to those who are actively seeking a job and cannot find one, not everyone who is not working, and unemployment is often long-term problem for individuals because it makes getting a job harder.)

I agree that large companies have too much influence in government.
Is it plausible to cap campaign contributions from individual entities and to catch dummy corporations (assuming you can get politicians to pass that)? As long as you are going to have a government at all campaigns will have to come from somewhere. (And if people need to run entirely on their own money then the people who can run would be mostly the same people who own large businesses.)
>>
No. 18263 ID: 598506

>>18258
>>18258
>Doesn't fact that there is unemployment contradict that? (Unemployment refers to those who are actively seeking a job and cannot find one, not everyone who is not working, and unemployment is often long-term problem for individuals because it makes getting a job harder.)
Having taken an economics course, yes, I am aware of what unemployment does and does not measure. And obviously when the economy is in the shitter, people are going to be poor, but I meant overall, in a healthy economy, you're not going to be destitute if you work hard.

The main impediment to prosperity seems to be the broken health care system in America and student loans.

>Is it plausible to cap campaign contributions from individual entities and to catch dummy corporations (assuming you can get politicians to pass that)? As long as you are going to have a government at all campaigns will have to come from somewhere. (And if people need to run entirely on their own money then the people who can run would be mostly the same people who own large businesses.)
Despite being ultra-conservative, I wholly support publicly-funded campaigns. I'm in favor of my tax dollars paying for politicians because the alternative is special interest groups. I also support government transparency so people know exactly what's going on in the government.

Note that this is why I support a weak federal government and stronger state governments: being smaller and local, state governments are more responsive to change than the federal government.
>>
No. 18264 ID: 78b9fc

>>18263

Work hard at what? You can push that boulder up the mountain all day and you won't be any less destitute. You really think rich people work harder than poor people?
>>
No. 18265 ID: 2ae337

Initially when they are not rich. Then some smart investments, playing the market, and a few years down the line, you get rich people. Whose mainstay depends on their job.

The ones that work as hard as non rich people are the business folk who have to fight tooth and nail against co workers trying to steal their job, bosses trying to pass blame onto them, HR trying to downsize them, and lawyers trying to sue them.
>>
No. 18267 ID: 2c7267

>>18265

>work as hard as non-rich people

Keep in mind that most poor people who 'work really hard' are actually just expending a ton of extra effort on really easy (and thus low-paying) jobs, like fast food and retail.
>>
No. 18273 ID: d60822

>>18253
>I also want to fix the problem permanently.
>permanently
Short of annihilating the human race, I don't think that's possible.

>>18263
>The main impediment to prosperity seems to be the broken health care system in America and student loans.
There's a lot of "99%" people touting that notion, but it's mostly bullshit. Student loans are easily avoidable by not being a student unless you can swing the cash. And there's plenty of ways to do that, including scholarships and gainful employ. Healthcare's easy too, at least until that new law comes into effect. Just don't buy healthcare and don't formally go to a doctor. Most problems can be dealt with just fine without the help of a guy in the labcoat. For the very rare things that can't... well, shit happens. Then you pay what you have to for doctor's fees, or you have to deal with it.
>>
No. 18274 ID: 78b9fc

>>18267

Yeah, so how much work you do doesn't matter. It's how much you help people in the process that does. Busting your ass at some dinky fast food chain is a waste of time and effort compared to say uh, replacing a roof. Even if you replace a roof in ten minutes without breaking a sweat (somehow).

But how could a job be really easy, if you have to work really hard at it? Really easy jobs are really hard? Low paid is usually the opposite of really easy. Not worth much, but watch out for the boiling grease!
>>
No. 18275 ID: b6edd6

>Just don't buy healthcare and don't formally go to a doctor.
Are you seriously arguing that healthcare is a luxury? That because the cold is harmless the the flue only kills a few, that diseases are therefore no threat? Aside from the obvious bit about throwing people under the bus, more people being sick means more risk of infection for other people nearby. (And the whole point of medical insurance is that lots of people can't afford to pay the medical bills upfront.)

>Initially when they are not rich. Then some smart investments, playing the market, and a few years down the line, you get rich people. Whose mainstay depends on their job.
They can also potentially get rich by joining a band and start selling records, but in both of those cases only a low proportion of those who try will be able to be particularly successful at it. Besides, you need money to start (sanely) investing in the first place.

>Keep in mind that most poor people who 'work really hard' are actually just expending a ton of extra effort on really easy (and thus low-paying) jobs, like fast food and retail.
That depends on your definition of 'easy'. Those are easy to be able to do, sure, but they still mean lots of work being done for little gain. Cooking all day for minimum wage is not 'the soft life' compared to being a businessman, even if it is harder to fail at.
>>
No. 18277 ID: 049dfa

>>18275

>Those are easy to be able to do, sure

Yes, they are. And that's the entire point. Literally anyone could do those jobs. It's unskilled labor that isn't even physically taxing. You are being paid just to spend time doing something nobody else wants to.

>Cooking all day for minimum wage is not 'the soft life' compared to being a businessman

Of course it's not the 'soft life.' It's the 'stupid life.' Cooking all day isn't even hard, those jobs are literally so easy that you can just think about anything else you want and run on autopilot after you've worked at them for about a week. Working a lot =/= Working Hard when your job takes no skills, no attention, and has no legitimate risk of failure.

But you're in luck! Since those jobs all pay hourly instead of by salary, you are at least getting paid more for working more even without having to work hard!
>>
No. 18278 ID: 78b9fc

>>18277

I think you're confusing working hard with thinking hard. Unskilled labor is still labor.

>> no legitimate risk of failure.

You... are aware of the lack of job security among fry cooks and coffee baristas? Let's put it another way: who's more likely to go hungry, a vice president of a financial trading company, or a janitor? Who's got more of a legitimate risk of failure here?
>>
No. 18280 ID: 049dfa

>>18278

>I think you're confusing working hard with thinking hard.

No, you're confusing 'working a lot' with 'working hard.' It doesn't matter how much time you spend doing something piss-easy, it doesn't make it hard. It does make it boring, and it usually sucks for that reason, but that's why people quit those jobs and they end up having such a high turnover rate.

>You... are aware of the lack of job security among fry cooks and coffee baristas?

Are you confusing turnover rates with security? Quitting a job because it sucks has nothing to do with job security.

>who's more likely to go hungry, a vice president of a financial trading company, or a janitor? Who's got more of a legitimate risk of failure here?

The only way you risk failing as a janitor is if you are completely retarded.
>>
No. 18282 ID: c9085e

>>18280
>Poor people are poor because they have shitty jobs and if they had better jobs, they would not be poor anymore.
Is that what you are saying? Because that's kinda messed up.
>>
No. 18283 ID: d60822

>>18275
>Are you seriously arguing that healthcare is a luxury?
I wasn't arguing it, because it didn't occur to me that anyone would dispute that assumption. How is it anything else? Is a modern contrivance that isn't necessary for anything.

>That because the cold is harmless the the flue only kills a few, that diseases are therefore no threat?
It's not "no threat", but it's not a huge deal. Everyone dies of something.

>Aside from the obvious bit about throwing people under the bus, more people being sick means more risk of infection for other people nearby.
Most bacterial infections aren't really a big deal. The few that are (tuberculosis comes to mind) are treated purely with antibiotics, which are pretty easy to get with or without healthcare.

>(And the whole point of medical insurance is that lots of people can't afford to pay the medical bills upfront.)
But overall it's cheaper to just pay the medical expense. Healthcare is essentially a "just in case" measure for if you suddenly require some huge amount of medical expense. But if you actually look at the math, and take the probability of that happening into account, you're better off keeping your money, whether in cash or in easily liquidated assets, and saving some up to offset potential costs like that. If you go into debt and take a while to pay it off, that's still less paid than you would be paying in healthcare in many or most cases.

>They can also potentially get rich by joining a band and start selling records
Nobody makes shit selling records. Nobody has for like a decade. Concerts are where the money's at.

>>18280
>>18277
Your portrayal of the amount of attention and effort involved in cooking and janitorial work is not in keeping with my understanding as acquired from people who actually work those jobs.
>>
No. 18284 ID: c61ec8

>>18283
>Is a modern contrivance that isn't necessary for anything.
It's necessary for not being dead.
>>
No. 18285 ID: d60822

>>18284
People survived for thousands of years without it. I'm surviving without it right now. People can die without healthcare, but people die with healthcare too.
>>
No. 18286 ID: c61ec8

>>18285
Less people die with healthcare than die without healthcare. Your "I'm surviving without it right now." means fuck all for the people who would and do die because of a lack of healthcare.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2010/Oct/What-Changes-in-Survival-Rates-Tell-Us.aspx
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-18/health/deaths.health.insurance_1_health-insurance-david-himmelstein-debate-over-healt
h-care?_s=PM:HEALTH

A fun story in relation to you saying people should just deal with their health problems instead of going to a professional:
"Hannum thought he had a stomach flu or food poisoning from bad chicken. On Monday, his brother saw him looking ashen and urged him to go to the hospital. "He had a little girl on the way," his older brother Curtis Hannum said. "He didn't want the added burden of an ER visit to hang on their finances. He thought 'I'll just wait,' and he got worse and worse."

By the time Hannum got to the hospital and was admitted to surgery, it was too late.

Paul Hannum, 45, died on Thursday, August 3, 2006, from a ruptured appendix. His daughter, Cameron was born two months later."
>>
No. 18287 ID: 049dfa

>>18282

No, I'm just saying that the idea that poor people work harder than rich people is absurd.
>>
No. 18288 ID: 1444d5

>>18285
>People survived for thousands of years without it.
For thousands of years, people regularly died by shitting themselves to death.
Widespread modern healthcare has raised the average lifespan from around 30-40 to pushing 100, and made that quality of life for the majority of that lifespan not suck.

Clean water and edible food are commonly regarded as basic human rights. If 'not dying of thirst', and 'not dying of starvation' are, why not 'not dying of preventable illnesses'? Never mind the massive and inherent corruption issues with privatised healthcare stemming from conflict of interest and inability to avoid many disorders: being fat is probably your fault and preventable, having cancer is not.
>>
No. 18289 ID: b6edd6

>No, I'm just saying that the idea that poor people work harder than rich people is absurd.
(I don't know about the others, but) I am not arguing that poor people always work harder than rich people. What I am arguing is that the effort they spend on work is comparable enough that you cannot blame poverty on laziness.

>It's not "no threat", but it's not a huge deal. Everyone dies of something.
>I'm surviving without it right now.
So easily preventable death is acceptable, because it has not happened to you?

>But overall it's cheaper to just pay the medical expense.
It is more expensive on average. Insurance profits come from the fact that most people are relatively healthy at any given time.
Without insurance, if you actually get significantly sick you end up paying much more in medical bills than you would have payed in insurance.
That is the entire point of insurance.
>>
No. 18290 ID: d60822

>>18288
Wikipedia has the most recent life expectancy (2009) at 66.57, which is a good bit less than 100. And you'll note that if you look at life expectancy as broken up by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) while better public health seems to correlate to life expectancy, prevalence of a healthcare institution doesn't, really. The higher ones tend to be ones with healthier lifestyles, and the lower ones tend to be violence-wracked, impoverished, and/or in tropical jungle areas.

>>18289
>So easily preventable death is acceptable, because it has not happened to you?
If death is easily preventable then it'll damn well be prevented. If it's theoretically preventable, but not practically, then that's how it goes. Everyone dies sometime. Just because I haven't yet doesn't mean I never will. The fact that everyone's going to die isn't really worth getting worked up about. A year or two either way won't make much difference to most folks.
Also this is totally unrelated to whether or not healthcare is a luxury, which as far as I can tell is what you were originally trying to argue.

>Without insurance, if you actually get significantly sick you end up paying much more in medical bills than you would have payed in insurance.
Only if you get sick in an extremely expensive way. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.
>>
No. 18291 ID: e3f578

Okay this might seem a bit out of left field here with not responding to a specific argument currently but occasionally I see people throwing blame on Congress and want to take their benefits away to help them see how big of a problem health is. It sounds extreme but it would feel good for those who aren't aware of the problem just to get a taste of it.

Actually, it would be kinda fun for there to be a politician who kept forwarding bills to cut yearly salaries of other politicians to help fit budget constraints. Like a big fat slash for every single one. I would want it televised. Then one miraculously manages to pass.

Of course, I don't know what they're payed, maybe they're not payed all that well, but they don't do they're jobs all that well. They don't cooperate too well at all. In fact, I may just sound like a naive, big hippy dick now because they probably work so hard for their law degrees and all that jazz. Gonna research it... done http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congresspay.htm

Oh wow holy shit they make bank, lowest rank ones make $174,000 a year. And they're doing a shit job just arguing. We do that for fucking free. OF course, that is the average complaint these days. I'm not sure, is that one of those legitimate numerous complaints or one of those "the mass is ignorant" complaints? I mean, it's hard to tell sometimes. The world is stupid a lot of the time and a lot of the time it's smart.

I think instead of arguing here, I'm asking if most politicians are payed too much, don't recognize the problems of society very well at all, and pretty much just stagnate the entire government system today. I don't actually see too many arguments against cutting their pay, even generic Tea Party arguments. Even though I see it occasionally, it hardly goes in depth at all or gets elaborated on very well. There are plenty of other problems to focus on, sure, even bigger ones that suck up the budget, but this one is intertwined since it deals with the people that make the decisions on how to deal with those bigger problems. Then maybe we could better justify universal health care to naysayers if the country could better afford it.
>>
No. 18292 ID: 3bd8ec

>>18290
"Lifespan" is not necessarily "life expectancy," the former term being for whatever reason both a synonym for life expectancy or "maximum life span."

The human maximum life span is, obviously, somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 years, at least as far as recorded individuals go. Life expectancy for humans was historically under 40 and may have gone under 20 around the time agriculture was introduced, and only in the latter part of the 20th century did it really begin to massively exceed historical values in developed countries.

However, it's worth noting that the commonly quoted life expectancy is in fact life expectancy at birth, which can be heavily colored by infant and child mortality rates. For example, Rome in the classical period is estimated to have had a life expectancy at birth of about thirty, but surviving to the age of fifteen increased it by twenty-five years or so.
>>
No. 18293 ID: 3bd8ec

>>18292
Also, it's only by mixing definitions that you can get an improvement from "20 to 30" to "pushing 100" ...
>>
No. 18294 ID: b6edd6

>Only if you get sick in an extremely expensive way. The majority of the time, this isn't the case.
Of course it doesn't happen most of the time, but if it does happen without insurance you are utterly screwed. A lesser problem that is sure to happen (and which you can handle) is often better than a small chance of an enormous one (which you cannot deal with).

>The fact that everyone's going to die isn't really worth getting worked up about. A year or two either way won't make much difference to most folks.
Am I wrong in thinking your argument is:
-A life is finite.
-Therefore, a sizable chunk of it is trivial. (Disease kills many people who are not on the edge of keeling over from old age, so 'a year or two' is more like a decade or so)
That does not make any sense (assuming, of course, you value human life in the first place). The fact that people only live so long makes 'a few years' more of a loss rather than less, as a person only has so many potential years to begin with.
What I mean by 'preventable death' is something that takes those years from people which could be easily avoided, for example by treating their illness.

(Are you also fine with murder, by the same logic? Murder 'merely' shaves a few years off of people's lives, after all.)
>>
No. 18296 ID: a98f5c

Much like Dirtbag, what I'm saying in this post ultimately has very little to do with the argument at hand. I was just inspired to say this by some of the discussion.

Public vs private is a really big issue in the USA, isn't it? I'm afraid I'm not completely up to date on US politics, due to recent political events in my own country, but I can't imagine the issue would have gone away that quickly. So: This post is about public vs private.

And the premise of this post is that public healthcare and private healthcare is not a 'versus' issue at all.

Look at the countries with public healthcare. The vast majority still have private healthcare in addition to public. It's not a unique thing – Spain, France, Australia, Hong Kong, Japan and Sweden all have both private and public avenues of healthcare, despite all having wildly different cultures and societal expectations. I expect these are by far not the only countries, but I got really really bored of looking through the different health systems of the world.

I can see how it appears like they're against each other. It looks like bringing in public healthcare would negatively influence the private market – that people would lose money and jobs overall despite the demand for jobs in the new public sector. I can understand how people would object to an increase of tax – no matter the amount. Long story short, I can see why public healthcare looks like it would destroy private healthcare and be negative for the country.

However: it doesn't, and it isn't. What ends up happening is that private healthcare adapts. The 'mindset' becomes different, if you will. Specifically, private healthcare system must offer better care than the public system in order to be 'worth' the cost. That is, if private healthcare offered a standard of care worse than public healthcare, it would go out of business because there is absolutely no reason to pay money to receive the same or worse care than you could get for no money. To repeat myself in a more extreme way, having public healthcare directly improves the quality of care afforded in private healthcare because private healthcare must be 'better' than public healthcare if it wants to survive as a market.

Public healthcare is often inadequate for the entirety of a country. It is true. Public healthcare is not a sudden flip of a switch that makes everyone healthy. It simply can't provide for everyone. The thing is, that is exactly where the corporations involved in private healthcare make money. By offering (at a cost, of course) what public healthcare cannot – prompt, personal care. Without public healthcare, there is no reason to do this. There is no real baseline to be 'better' than.

Why is it that the developed nations with public healthcare (such as those mentioned earlier), are considered to have better healthcare than the USA? Based on what I've said here, I put it to you that it's not because public healthcare is inherently better than private healthcare (in fact, depending on semantics, I disagree that this is even true) – it's because private healthcare is forced to become better than what public healthcare offers.

Comparing public and private is apples and oranges. Next time, compare private with private, and see how things stack up.

I admit readily that I have not done in-depth research and this is all based on assumptions and a few quick Google binges. I also admit that it's a very simplistic summary – the Nordic countries (crazy high tax, crazy high social benefits), for example, don't really have a big market for private healthcare at all (I think – someone from one of the Nordic countries can go ahead and correct me if any of them see this to do so). I would really love to see an actual comparison of USA's private healthcare with the private healthcare of other nations that have both public and private. I genuinely believe that if such a comparison was done, you'd find that private healthcare is much better in these other nations (and I would of course suggest it's because they had to be 'better' than the public system to be a tenable business), but I can't be certain. If someone could show me to my satisfaction that I was wrong, I'd gladly change my opinion.
>>
No. 18297 ID: 326a81

>>18296

Everyone who isn't retarded already knows that.

Just sayin'
>>
No. 18298 ID: a98f5c

>>18297
Then there are an unfortunate amount of retarded people in the US :(

(Which isn't anything new either)
>>
No. 18299 ID: d60822

>>18294
>Disease kills many people who are not on the edge of keeling over from old age
Not really.

>Are you also fine with murder, by the same logic?
I would be fine with more than a couple things that are considered murder under current definitions. I don't see why dueling should be outlawed, and I'd be right there with everyone else on acquitting Muybridge, for example. But killing without a good reason is pointlessly harming another, whereas disease is a natural thing.

However we seem to be getting off topic. My original point was more like "the system is fucked. Why would we make a fucked system mandatory for everyone, and why is not participating a bad thing?" I don't think everyone should just be thrown to the wolves if they ever catch a sniffle. I don't like the current situation with insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and over-educated incompetents squeezing every dime out of people in exchange for a service that's ultimately not that great. I think we should just go back to normal practices of medicine. We can fix a car or a pipe in a way that makes sense economically, the fact that fixing a person results in such a big clusterfuck doesn't indicate that things need to be more complicated.

>>18296
Private healthcare providers all use the normal hospitals and doctors, care is the same. Only exception I can think of is Kaiser Permanente. So if everyone who can't provide a better-than-normal service fails, almost everyone fails.

>I would really love to see an actual comparison of USA's private healthcare with the private healthcare
Well, wealthy people come here from all over the world for their sex-change operations, and it's not uncommon for people with particularly bad problems to be shipped here for necessary procedures either. That's at the highest level of service though, it doesn't really say anything about the service received by the bulk of the population.
>>
No. 18300 ID: c61ec8

>>18299
>>Disease kills many people who are not on the edge of keeling over from old age
>Not really.
I guess all those children that die from disease were about to keel over from old age. Clinical depression leading to suicide should just be walked off, forget about going to a doctor. Chemotherapy? Fuck it, you're dead anyway.

>However we seem to be getting off topic. My original point was more like "the system is fucked. Why would we make a fucked system mandatory for everyone, and why is not participating a bad thing?"
You're full of shit, your original post was arguing against someone who was saying that the system was fucked, and you said that people should just suck it up when they have life-threatening illnesses.
>>18273
Also, being dead is actually a pretty huge impediment to prosperity, I would say it's the biggest one!
>>
No. 18302 ID: a98f5c

>>18299
>why should we make a fucked system mandatory for everyone
I wish I understood the US system because I really want to reply to this. How on earth is bringing in public healthcare making it 'mandatory'? I thought the only thing mandatory about healthcare was the tax hike, and paying tax doesn't mean you have to use every single social service that tax goes to...

Unless you're talking about health insurance which is like a whole other topic to what I was thinking. Isn't the basis of universal health insurance that you can't be refused? Which would mean it's a totally different system altogether to the 'fucked' system you have now. That's how public insurance works in most places, as far as I am aware. Of course the US has proven time and time again that it does not do things the same way as "most places" and I could have been wrong about my assumption in the first place, so fact-fixes are fine by me.
>>
No. 18304 ID: 1444d5

>>18302
As far as I can tell, the US system is "you're fucked". They're trying to transition from "pay out the ass for a basic human right, either in instalments or a crippling lump-sum" to "the same thing, but get fined if you don't pay in instalments". Somebody must have worked very hard to meld the worst aspects of public and privatised healthcare together.
>>
No. 18305 ID: a45a27

One thing I have a problem understanding is the american revulsion against government controlled institutions.

Being from a former member state of the soviet union, I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone who feels horrified or threatened by the government taking any bit more control from an individual than it had before.

But government is not bad all by itself. The real problem is a small elite being able to take away freedom from a larger group.
In my home place, it were corrupt, retarded or sadistic apparatschiks who felt good about taking away other peoples things, rising through the ranks because their uncle, brother or father was the head of local party directorat. All the while hearing on TV how much the government "cares" for its people and works towards its betterment.

The anger you feel your when you realise your own powerlessness in the system is excruciating.

In the US there is a elite of very few rich people who did something very smart. Instead of trying to control the population through ovious means, they were able to create the illusion the individual citizen was the most powerful and influential entity ala "you can make your own dreams come true yourself if you only work hard enough. But by the way, WE decide what the rules are, we just don't tell you e did. Instead you will feel as IF we counted on your opinion, which will create the illusion that we are on the SAME side and we see you as an equal".

Don't get the impression I want to promote a "huge conspiracy". It's just many many very small things add up to a situation when few people are able to rule over many without restraints.

The smartest thing to do is to say you are not ruling. Even smarter is to say, the "ruling people" (government) are responsible for the problems.

"I just want freedom for everyone (with me being the only one to truly live it).
I want free markets for everyone (except I'm the one profiting most from it).
Without government restrictions and taxes, everyone can earn a lot of money (except I'm the only one who will make insane amounts of it)."

I all for protest against abuse and suppression by the "ruling class". But it's important to identify the actual ruling class and not its puppets.

Before you take aim, you need a valid target.

In case of the USA, a country where people still enjoy many freedoms and rights, a concerned citizen should use the tools already in place (laws and government officials), which are mostly there to protect citizens, and not to be obstacles, before demonizing them.

Sweet lord, if only the bolshevik apparat would have been as open to its citizens as the american government...
>>
No. 18307 ID: d60822

>>18300
>You're full of shit, your original post was arguing against someone who was saying that the system was fucked, and you said that people should just suck it up when they have life-threatening illnesses.
Did you actually read my posts? A guy said healthcare caused debt, and I pointed out that it was easy to avoid by not partaking of healthcare. Then somebody started spouting bullshit about healthcare being a human right, and I argued about how retarded that is. I never said people with life-threatening illnesses should suck it up. I said that people with minor afflictions should suck it up or use folk medicine rather than paying for the medical system, and people should pay out of pocket if they encounter afflictions that cannot be dealt with in that manner, rather than purchasing a long-term healthcare plan that will cost them more money overall. Perhaps my summary of my point was imperfect, drawing more on the reasons that lay in my mind for saying what I did than for the more action-based portion that I actually typed up. But it's nowhere near what you say it was.

>>18302
>I wish I understood the US system because I really want to reply to this. How on earth is bringing in public healthcare making it 'mandatory'?
As of the new year, anyone without healthcare will have to pay an annually recurring $5000 fine. Incidentally, I (and I'm sure many others) will still not have healthcare, because due to preexisting conditions the cheapest I can find would cost me $8000 a year. That's the healthcare plan that made it out of Congress a bit ago. The only way to "opt out" of this is to abandon a public identity and make your living through illicit means, so that the government can't collect it. Which is the wisest choice, because a cough now and then is a whole hell of a lot easier to deal with than the same cough and a $5000 dollar fine, and even with the economy the marijuana industry is still doing okay.
You are also obligated to get certain healthcare procedures (mostly inoculations) in order to participate in the public school system, which is in turn mandatory, but that wasn't really what I was talking about. As far as I'm aware there's no procedures that are mandatory for adults.

>>18304
>a basic human right
Where the fuck does this idea even come from? It's not in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Is it an EU thing?

>>18305
>WE decide what the rules are, we just don't tell you e did. Instead you will feel as IF we counted on your opinion, which will create the illusion that we are on the SAME side and we see you as an equal.
That may be accurate at the federal level, but at the state level (which usually matters more, even though the feds constantly try to take more power) the system is pretty much exactly as it appears to be, at least in my experience.
And consequently there's way less trouble at the state level.
>>
No. 18308 ID: c61ec8

>>18307
>Where the fuck does this idea even come from? It's not in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Is it an EU thing?
It's in article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe you should have actually checked the UDHR before spouting bullshit.
"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

"not partaking of healthcare" is a completely absurd thing to suggest because it is not an option for the many people who would be dead without proper healthcare. Being dead is not a viable economic option to take.
Whether or not paying out of pocket is cheaper than getting insurance (It isn't, because insurance companies get massive discounts that you won't benefit from if paying out of pocket) isn't even relevant, because the argument is that it should be free.
>>
No. 18309 ID: 383006

>>18305
There is a big difference between federal action and state action in the United States. Local/state government is more useful when it is operating properly - it actually knows what the problems are that afflict its citizens, and can respond directly to them in the way that's best for the people who live there. Federal action is broad and often creates negative outcomes that can no longer be mitigated by state government because the federal law will preempt. Even if the Federal law "better overall" it can often create harsh disparities, because the economies and social situations of the various states can be drastically different.
>>
No. 18312 ID: 5ed7bf

>>18305
Well in places where democracy is taken for granted, people do stupid things.

In Greece they feel the urge to literally burn their tax papers in violent, riotous protests over a tax rise when it's the people's own cheating on tax, excessive borrowing and all-around wasting of money that is making the country go FUCKING BANKRUPT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

In the US people take to the streets yelling about what they believe the law should and should not say and then for some reason they DON'T VOTE and somehow expect to get their way – 2008's record turnout wasn't even 2/3 of the eligible population!

In Australia a slight wardrobe malfunction (I don't mean like Tina Turner, I mean like fucking laddered stockings) on the Prime Minister will seriously make the national news, and beyond that, GENUINELY AFFECT PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ON WHETHER OR NOT TO ELECT A PARTY!

Now, this isn't exclusive to democracies. People are stupid everywhere. It's true. There just seems to be a really deep-seated apathy and sometimes even hatred towards the institutions of government that make a country run when people are 'free' in a democracy. Either it's a hatred for something the government's doing because of the public, or it's a hatred for something that they don't use their power to 'fix', or it's a hatred for something that nobody would normally give a shit about — but as long as people are 'free', they hate the government.

If I were to guess, it's because people are so arrogant they think "I didn't pick them" means "nobody picked them".

Personally, when I see people who hate politicians regardless of policy, I tell them to either run for fucking government themselves or stop bitching.
>>
No. 18317 ID: 715620

>>18312
as a rule:

>You are smart.

>A person is average.

>People are stupid.
>>
No. 18319 ID: 78b9fc
File 131866706435.jpg - (64.58KB , 600x480 , durr hurr hurr.jpg )
18319

>>18312

I'm fairly sure that the cluelessness of the average human being in a given environment is mostly dependent on what sort of media is fed to them. It's not that laddered stockings affect people's voting decisions, so much as it's the national news that affects people's voting decisions, and how they feel about laddered stockings. I could be wrong though. I don't watch the news after all, which leaves me sadly uninformed about such things.
>>
No. 18327 ID: 821814

>>18319
There's a fucking huge degree of personal choice involved in media consumption, though. Even just counting news media, in the US we have conservative scaremongering (FOX) liberal non-news bullshit (CNN, MSNBC, most other major stations) satyrical political analisis (Daily Show) and more general news (Colbert Report). And there's the vast plethora of internet news sources and international networks llike BBC and Al Jazeera.
There's less choice for local news, but local news is generally a small-scale affair wherein local folks tell you what's been going down. It's not really a case of anyone being "fed" anything either.
>>
No. 18336 ID: 5ed7bf

>>18327
>general news
>Colbert Report
Um..?

US media actually is pretty shoddy. You don't get those silly "this is what the world looks like from the POV of the USA media" maps by being well-informed. I suppose that's unrelated to how much political choice you have. On the other hand, it's a testament to how dumb they all are when you apparently can't get a news service that doesn't express a political bend.

Anyway the 'laddered stockings' thing was in reference to Australia, which is in a completely different situation media-wise – we have political diversity and choice, but that doesn't matter because every media outlet is just as petty.

While I am pretty sure Julia Gillard's stockings have yet to make national news, there have been some ridiculous things up there – two headlines at the moment for Channel 7 are "Bligh takes week off to recharge" – a national news story on the Australian equivalent to a governor taking a break. There's also a story up about how the upper house is going to be remodeled. Do they seriously have nothing else to talk about? Yes.
>>
No. 18338 ID: 821814

>>18336
Colbert covers all sorts of stuff.

It's true that mainstream media doesn't cover international stuff much, but that's more of an artifact of the American isolationist attitude than it is indicative of a more general ignorance.

Headlines about little. Shit like that are a bit silly, true. But even in Australia news is available online, and if it's anything like here that's where most folks get their info anyway.
>>
No. 18339 ID: 78b9fc

>>18327

What personal choices you make largely depends on what you were fed before. People who are raised to worship and not to have a critical eye will seek out news that makes them feel justified. Most people will avoid diverse news sources simply because they fear discovering their heroes are lying. Why do they fear this? Because they never had to deal with it before, and will never have to deal with it until the war comes to their backyard, thanks to plenty of insulating lies claiming to be news sources.

Does anyone really think the BBC is unbiased reporting without the biggest agenda of any news organization in the world?
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No. 18341 ID: 1444d5

>>18339
>Does anyone really think the BBC is unbiased reporting without the biggest agenda of any news organization in the world?
You're verging into conspiracy theory territory there.
>>
No. 18343 ID: b6edd6

>Does anyone really think the BBC is [...] without the biggest agenda of any news organization in the world?
Why yes, yes I do.
BBC is certainly biased, because everyone is biased to some degree, but claiming it is more biased than the likes of Fox News or the Daily Mail is laughable.
>>
No. 18344 ID: eaaf28

>>18339
That's more of a culture thing than a "what are they being fed" thing.
As far as BBC, it seems fairly biased to me, but their watchdog group in Britain says they're in the clear. The reason for this, I'd surmise, is that their bias is politically neutral in Britain.
>>
No. 18878 ID: d6ae01

The following Big Dumb Argument continues from:
"http://askicepack.tumblr.com/ OMG GUYS WEAVER IS DOING SOME KIND OF LJ THING WITH A ZEBRA AND PONIES! HE WILL NEVER QUEST AGAIN"
>>
No. 18879 ID: c7b6c2

This isn't helping my opinion of Bronies at all.
>>
No. 18880 ID: 874bd8

God forbid Weaver does whatever he wants. It's like he has free will or something!

Really guys, at this point this kinda thing is the norm. Might as well roll with it.
>>
No. 18881 ID: 874bd8

>>355548

It doesn't matter wether YOU condone it or not. If Weaver wants to draw ponies then he's going to draw ponies. That's just how it is man. No need to complain about it so much. Weaver will continue on this or NanQuest when he feels like it. That's pretty much the status quo on here and that's more than likely how it's going to be in the future.

Also an 'appreciative' fan wouldn't sit around complaining and whining about updates and what he's doing. You need to seriously chill.
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No. 18882 ID: c7b6c2

To discuss your points, in order:
1. Maybe "appreciate" would be a better word?
2. I realize I have no control over what Reaver draws. I am simply stating that I am disappointed that he left without saying so much as a word to anyone.
3. It is so much better to complain than to remain silent, for all parties involved, no?
4. This is what I am afraid of. Weaver may never feel like updating his quests, instead opting to participate in ponies. This is bad.
5. Status Quo? I don't see Reaver abandoning Romanticar to instead write Adventure Time fanfiction, or Test Pattern leaving to author a book without telling anyone. This is NOT the status quo.
6. Ignoring your blatant argumentum ad hominem, an appreciative fan would wonder why his or her favorite author decided to wordlessly leave his or her favorite piece. An appreciative fan would be curious as to why the author so suddenly jumped ship and would be concerned for the future of the author's now-abandoned work. Doing these things is a far cry from "complaining and whining".
7. I am as chill as an ice cube.
>>
No. 18883 ID: 049dfa

>>355550

>suddenly

What's so sudden about any of this?

>leaving

Weav is still here as well.

>chill

liar
>>
No. 18884 ID: 04254c

>>355548
This. I'm a fan of Weaver myself but this pony shit is getting out of hand. It's not even a side thing or an interest, he's basically ditching writing quests with characters he's successfully established to indulge in ponies and make tumblrs about his pretty prancy manwhore OC DO NOT STEAL pony self-insert.

That's not stupid for just Weaver, that's stupid for anyone to do.
>>
No. 18885 ID: 5bf190

>>355550

People come here for fun, whether they be quest reader, player or author. That is the purpose of the site. If Weaver is currently having more fun drawing ponies than making quests, then he should draw ponies, by all means. He owes us nothing. WE owe HIM a lot.

Also, the "status quo" was "most quests don't have a proper ending".

Also also, no-one is "chill" who uses the proper names for logical fallacies on the internet. Nor the numbered list. Nor anyone who ends a statement with "no?". These are all subtle signs that someone is making an effort to appear particularly civil. See, I'm doing it myself. I am agitated by your post, hence why I'm replying in the first place. I am, in internet parlance, mad. A bit. As are you. I'm mad, you're mad. How do I know you're mad?

You must be, or you wouldn't have come here.
>>
No. 18886 ID: 874bd8

>>355550

You're still pretty mad bro. Also yes, Weaver taking long breaks from his quests IS pretty normal. We just have to deal with it like adults instead of getting upset like little children. I'm still waiting for Nanquest, something he hasn't updated for a much longer period than Dive, and do you see me pissing and moaning about it? No. I'm waiting. And while I'm waiting I'm looking at other people's work on here too instead of limiting myself.

Also: "6. Ignoring your blatant argumentum ad hominem, an appreciative fan would wonder why his or her favorite author decided to wordlessly leave his or her favorite piece. An appreciative fan would be curious as to why the author so suddenly jumped ship and would be concerned for the future of the author's now-abandoned work. Doing these things is a far cry from "complaining and whining". "

An appreciative fan is a fan who respects the AUTHOR, not just the work itself. You're complaining about your precious Quest instead of considering that maybe Weaver NEEDS a break from it. If you keep pressuring him eventually he'll get sick of the whole thing and give up completely. That's why you need to be PATIENT. (On the note of the tumblr, I'm not exactly for it myself, but I'm not going to get upset over it.)

tl;dr Weaver will continue when he damn well pleases. Learn some patience and grow up.
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No. 18887 ID: 874bd8

Also, correcting myself slightly, when I use the term 'status quo', it's in regards to Weaver's quest, not the site itself. I apologize if I was a bit too vague with that point.
>>
No. 18888 ID: 4caae7

Calm the fuck down, he hasn't quit questing.
"NanQuest will continue! I just haven’t been in the right mindset for drawing serious quests lately, which is why I’m primarily drawing silly stuff these days. But it will return!"
http://tgweaver.tumblr.com/post/12309141107/hi-im-a-huge-fan-of-rubyquest-and-nanquest-im
>>
No. 18889 ID: 210977

>>355556

so... what is the right mindset?
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No. 18890 ID: 0d7a83
File 132164809709.jpg - (36.54KB , 240x200 , srscat.jpg )
18890

>>355557
deadly srs.
>>
No. 18891 ID: 428c25

>>355551
When was the last time Weaver made a post, hmm?

>>355553
I never said that Weaver owes us anything. I am simply stating that I am not happy with the choices he has made.

And yes, while most quests are left to fade into obscurity, that is in most cases because it was an inexperienced author who grew tired of doing it. Weaver is not inexperienced, and is obviously not tired of drawing, as evidenced by the massive amounts of PONY he churns out.

And yes, I am making an attempt to be civil, because I have found that it's much easier to discuss something civilly than to go full-on cruise control.

Might I remind you that this is about Weaver, and not how or why I type. You seem to be upset more by my method of argument than what I am actually arguing.

>>355554
Yes, I realize that Weaver has a Notchlike affection with taking breaks. No, I am not "getting upset like little children". I am waiting too, and despite what you apparently believe, I also peruse the works of other authors. I just happen to vocalize my complaints.

Believe me, I DO respect Weaver and his wants and needs. I am simply arguing that it was not the wisest choice to stop questing in favor of writing about his original character being paid to have sex with characters from a children's TV show.

I implore you to realize that in the face of your demands that I "grow up", I am not the one using insults as an integral part of my argument.
>>
No. 18892 ID: 049dfa

>I am simply arguing that it was not the wisest choice to stop questing in favor of writing about his original character being paid to have sex with characters from a children's TV show.

And you are wrong, because if that's what he is currently enjoying more that is the wisest use of his leisure time.

>I implore you to realize that in the face of your demands that I "grow up", I am not the one using insults as an integral part of my argument.

But you ARE the one who is basing the 'wisdom' of another's actions entirely on the benefits they have for you. Which is what makes you a child.
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No. 18893 ID: bfc528

>>355561
>You seem to be upset more by my method of argument than what I am actually arguing.

Yes, exactly! You understand me.
>>
No. 18894 ID: 55c4cf

I will point out that this is a Dive Quest thread, and not "whine because the author is not doing what I want them to do."

A couple, "please come back," (with sages) in the thread are understandable. This is far past ridiculous self-entitlement levels. I am confident that these behaviors are not likely to make Weaver want to come back and do things when people are berating him for what he enjoys and may or may not be doing.
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No. 18895 ID: 874bd8

>>355561

What you're arguing is that Weaver isn't doing what you want. That's all it really is. He's not doing what you want and you're getting upset about it. That's all your point is. And I disagree with it because it makes you sound like a spoiled child. That's pretty much it. No matter how you re-work it or try to twist it around you're still being whiney and you're still insulting Weaver by complaining about what he's been doing. We have no right to complain about DiveQuest when Weaver's been giving it to us for free for YEARS now. He takes time out of his schedule to create these adventures for us to enjoy, and you thank him by whining when he dares to use his free time for something else. Yeah, he takes long breaks, but when he's been doing this for YEARS and he still delivers a decent quality product? I think he deserves a break every now and then.

tl;dr Stop being a bitch and take your hiatus like a fucking man, dear sir.
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No. 18912 ID: 543aa6
File 132182165393.gif - (4.46KB , 800x600 , beering.gif )
18912

I'm not ditching my quests. I'm certainly not ditching my quests FOR ponies.
There's this weird misconception here that if I weren't drawing ponies, I'd be drawing quests.
That's wrong.

Neither did I leave, let alone abandon the site and my works without a word. In fact I've spoken at length on this subject already.

>I never said that Weaver owes us anything. I am simply stating that I am not happy with the choices he has made.
>it was not the wisest choice
Frankly, sir, I don't give a fuck if you're happy with the choices I've made.
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No. 18914 ID: ddc511

Now I love this thread even more!
>>
No. 18934 ID: 89630b

>People being angry at an artist for being an artist

Good sirs and ladies, I learned a valuable fucking lesson working with Larro, then Farmah, on a Quest:

Creativity is not a motherfucking faucet. While I can spend day and night writing shit, and doodling real shit, quality work takes real inspiration, and that is not all that easy to come by. You cannot ask an artist to do what you want, unless you commission them.
>>
No. 18944 ID: 389ef2

>>18934

Exactly. Weaver's quests probably wouldn't be nearly as great as they are if he rushed to update them every time people wanted him to.

And as he is not being paid at all for making quests, instead doing them purely because he wants to, he does not owe anybody anything. It makes no sense to demand quality work from someone if you're not even giving them anything for it.

Also, it certainly isn't Weaver's fault if people have nothing else to look forward to in their lives besides a couple of quests.
>>
No. 18946 ID: 2a5789

>>18944
>It makes no sense to demand quality work from someone if you're not even giving them anything for it.

Unless Weaver saidsomething like "I promise I will update this and that on this day" or something, of course.


Which I seriously doubt he did :V
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No. 18951 ID: bdf35e

YOU'RE NOT GIVING ME MY MONEY'S WORTH, WEAVER.
>>
No. 18952 ID: 72d8c7

On this site, there are two things given for free: creative works and criticism. You should never assume either is being forced upon yourself. If someone acts "self entitled," just take it as evidence that people care very much for your growth as an author. On the other hand, imagine a horrible world where the few who care about you are complete asskissers.
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No. 18955 ID: c7b6c2

oh gosh i am so sorry guys. Weaver, believe be when I say that I do not mean you any disrespect, and do not want to impose my beliefs as to what you should be doing. I just perceived a lack of questing and an influx of ponies, but I guess I really don't know what your actual plans are. You're probably doing a lot of work for your quests that we aren't seeing. I apologize.
>>
No. 18965 ID: 42e7cd

>>18955
While I believe your apology is heartfelt, it's still misdirected.

He doesn't need to do quests. He doesn't have to do quests. He is not obligated to do quests. No one has hired him, no one pays him, he promises nothing. Stop implying, however subtly, that he should always be working on them.
>>
No. 18967 ID: d60822

>>18965
It wasn't really very subtly.
>>
No. 19093 ID: 874bd8
File 132246107494.jpg - (17.39KB , 197x314 , 668a1c9d-c1ce-4735-b48b-76ef06fe7779.jpg )
19093

>>18955

My god, we're going to need a bucket for the sheer amounts of dripping sarcasm and rage in this little post. Also, have an immature macro of a Spotted Quoll. It seems rather fitting here.
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No. 19103 ID: 55f0cc

Boring. Hey! You guys! What's your view about gender?
>>
No. 19104 ID: 4183c9

>>19103
One (1): If you are wearing a frilly pink dress - figuratively or not - and are invertebrate, you belong in the nonburnable trash.

Two (2): Treason is a sure-fire way to acquire an invitation to dance the hempen jig with the rest of the Bolsheviks.

Three (5): Your question is idiotic because it is extremely vague.
>>
No. 19106 ID: 0e1a3c

>>19103
It's a thing people have. Almost always it coincides with their sex.

What else is there to say about it?
>>
No. 19110 ID: 55f0cc

Hahaha! Love you guys! The notion of gender! What about it?
I know it's kinda hard since you all were born with this thing already made and such.
>>
No. 19111 ID: 2ae337

Sex is the physical organ you were born with.

Gender is the role you play in your society based on your sex, build, and accepted social norms.
>>
No. 19112 ID: 55f0cc

No, no. Everyone here already knows the description of the concept, right guys? Guys?
Anyway, what do you think about it? Your opinion, dude! Come on!
>>
No. 19113 ID: d79ace

i don't give a fuck. One of my friends identifies as androgynous though. He's kinda cute, in a no-homo sort of way.

What do you butts think about this Occupy movement thing?
>>
No. 19115 ID: bdb886

>>19113
Somewhat silly and misguided, half populated by people who were raised to thing college education = good job and half populated by people who are tweeting about "fighting the mannn" on their iPads and capturing the experience with a Sony camera.
>>
No. 19116 ID: bdf35e

>Boring. Hey! You guys! What's your view about gender?

It's like sex, except people pretend they're different.
>>
No. 19117 ID: 2ae337

>>19115
It was all done in good intentions. However seeing how it is multiple activists groups mish mashed into one, no common ground can be met.

One of the general messages I think is that if companies want no government interference, then they should not get the bailouts that they have been getting. And some other stuff, I'm not totally sure.

I'm sure it will end the same way as the 1911 protests against the Railroad...some protester gets too far and uses violence. Companies use violent act as legitimate claim to call in National Guard to forcibly break up the movement. At least that's what'll happen to U.S based Occupy. Not sure about other nations.
>>
No. 19118 ID: 55f0cc

>>19116
What about sex, then?
>>
No. 19121 ID: 4183c9

>>19118
Questions such as "what's your view on politics" and "what do you think about gender" are inherently idiotic questions because they are not actually questions. No, they are not. No matter how many question marks you put after (and/or before and/or anywhere between) them.

Asking "what do you think of Napoleon" technically - I repeat, technically - counts as a question, but even that "question" is less of a question and more of a statement in the spirit of "oh hey guys look I mentioned a famous historical figure am I cool yet" and "I'm a pretentious cunt". What about Napoleon? Are you asking about his fucking hair? Do you want to discuss his height? His tactics and/or strategies? His performance as a father? Was his hat too big/wide/conical/blue/ethereal to be considered an electronic component in 2020? Could he have fantasized about molesting Cleopatra's mummified corpse? Or do you just want me to write ten fucking 10,000-page books on "My Opinions Of Napoleon (And Perhaps The Scientific Value Of His Pubic Hair)"? WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ASKING? NOBODY KNOWS!

If you want some gogdamb general discussion, then at the very fucking least start with a specific topic, you dick-gargling badger dick cunt of a Bolshevik ass-rat.
>>
No. 19122 ID: 55f0cc

>>19121
Told already. The concept. What do you think about it? If you want, it can extend to any classification of the same kind, really. No need to see it as a question. It's not like I want a definitive answer or anything. Face it as a request, if you desire. Your opinion, please.
>>
No. 19125 ID: 25d956

>>19122
I pretty much agree entirely with >>19121

"what is your opinion on gender?" is a stupid question with almost no content. People essentially explained the sociology already. It's not clear what, if anything, there is to say otherwise unless you are more specific.

A better statement would be "It's pretty fair that sex is a protected class under the US constitution, but gender isn't. Otherwise, people could just make some stupid shit up and force businesses to cater to them" or "People who say that sex is just as murky a term as gender based on the difficulty to test are stupid. Sure, there are intersex disorders that make it less binary than it looks, but they're exceptional, and we can sort of just pick one for them at birth."

These are more specific and can invite some kind of opinion or discussion/big dumb argument about them.
>>
No. 19128 ID: 55f0cc

These aren't specific, but tendentious. Worse, biased when addressing practical issues. Anyway, I'm interested in discussing the notion of the term, not the issues around it. Never mind. Have to try more, but it seems to me that this type of approach isn't very effective.

This is problematic. Opening with my opinion fatefully derails to myself, ignoring the subject. Joining an existing discussion usually ends with my interlocutors adopting an aggressive/defensive stance. Trying to address the issue directly and impartially... I'm running out of options.
>>
No. 19129 ID: 25d956

>>19128
Wow, is that English? I can barely parse that first paragraph.

Also somebody already said "Sex is biologically determined, gender is a social role." If you want something out of the 'discussion' other than that, you're going to have to post something with some meaningful content.

You actually get intricacies on issues when there is contention and people disagree. Otherwise, everybody is just sort of says "yup" and moves along.
>>
No. 19130 ID: 55f0cc

It's really that bad? My apologies.
It may be my fault, but I'm tired of repeating myself. I lost the interest, anyway.
>>
No. 19138 ID: 784dcc

I understood what s/he said, though I had to look up 'tendentious'. It means what you think it means.

"Words have gender. People have sex."
as for /quest/, you run from Acting Sub Lieutenant Dirk Martin Hardpec Eagle to Fuze, or Rynh "I shouldn't have told you I'm a girl" to Maolla...in looks at least.
>>
No. 19140 ID: d60822

>>19128
You mean you just want to argue about the way the wording works?

Personally I think they both refer to physical gender (because that's how people actually use them) and abnormal cases like trans stuff are best served by being considered abnormal cases rather than forcing terminology that doesn't apply. Minds are complex things. If a person doesn't fit neatly into the generalizations implied by gender, then so be it. We don't need to apply codified rules to preexisting language for that, people differ in too many diverse ways for any categorization to be totally effective.
>>
No. 19141 ID: 25d956

>>19140
No one who knows anything at all about anthropology or modern civil rights uses them both to mean physical traits. If you look at basically any society ever you can understand that they are distinct concepts.
>>
No. 19145 ID: bdf35e

>>19141

Everybody who isn't retarded considers the two synonyms. The use of the word with respect to the bullshitities is a failed hijacking and nothing more.
>>
No. 19148 ID: b6edd6

Gender has been at most a partial synonym with sex for a very long time. Gender is a grammatical term; sex is not.

And I find it silly to not have a term for transgendered just because the concept applies to a minority and has wide variation.
>>
No. 19151 ID: bdf35e

>>19148

>Gender is a grammatical term; sex is not.

Yeah, Wikipedia can suck my dick. It's how real people use the word that matters, not what the dictionary says.
>>
No. 19154 ID: b6edd6

Yes, linguistics is clearly an entirely fictitious field of study perused by entirely fictitious people. Real peoples is not cared about grammaring.

Seriously, though, on what basis do you claim to speak for 'real people' as a group? We have already seen several people who say that gender is not always synonymous with sex. Do those people just not count, or do you have some sort of evidence they are a tiny fringe group?
>>
No. 19155 ID: bdf35e

>>19154

>Yes, linguistics is clearly an entirely fictitious field of study perused by entirely fictitious people. Real peoples is not cared about grammaring.

SEMANTICS. Here, the revised Madmadmad definition for the criminally pedantic.

GENDER

a) Tits vs. dicks
b) Stuff French teachers jerk off to

>tiny fringe group
>TGCHAN
>>
No. 19157 ID: b6edd6

My point is that you are implied ("how real people use the word") that practically everyone agrees with your definition.
I responded that there are people right here who believe otherwise, and that you have not provided a reason why that view would only exist here.

Also: If pedantry is a crime, I don't want to be innocent :V
>>
No. 19166 ID: 55f0cc

Hahaha! You're far worse than me at this thing, mad subject! Anyway, "real peoples"? You perked my curiosity! Please, tell more!
>>
No. 19168 ID: 25d956

>>19155
Yeah, you're just pretty much totally wrong and are on the opposite side of your own argument. Maybe in backwardsistan people think they're synonyms, but in the real world people understand the difference.

Also, just because uneducated faggots don't understand a distinction in terms doesn't mean they don't have distinct meanings. Case in point: you versus everyone else in this thread.
>>
No. 19170 ID: 2c1edf

>>19121
love this guy, lol
>>
No. 19171 ID: bdf35e

People who live on Earth use the word gender to mean sex. Any talk about "constructs" or "astral moon dildos" or whatever social "scientists" are bitching about these days is horseshit. You don't need to pretend otherwise. I didn't expect to break into such a hive of liberal line-toers.

>>19168

No u, I'm afraid.
>>
No. 19173 ID: 25d956

>>19171
People on earth definitely don't. I'm about as far from liberal as you can get and I know better. Besides, even if 51% of people use them interchangeably, linguistic differentiation isn't solely based on consensus. If most people call a dolphin a fish that doesn't somehow change what the words mean. 75% of people can be wrong about something.

Separating the terms is useful for talking about things, such as comparing societies, or talking about disorders. I mean, intersex and transgendered don't mean nearly the same thing.

Besides, gender referring to social roles is less liberal than people think - it's just conditioning, and implies the sort of things they want to "protect" aren't an ingrained anything because they aren't biological. Which is almost definitely the truth.
>>
No. 19175 ID: bdf35e

>>19173

Untrue.
>>
No. 19177 ID: 4183c9

>>19173
Speaking of semantics, if you are referring to Ameriki liberals, US "liberal" is actually right-of-center nanny Bolshevism with a handful of pet "freedoms".
Naturally, US "conservative" is also not actually all that conservative, being more of right-of-center Biblepusher Bolshevism with a handful of pet "freedoms". Pretty much the only things they wish to conserve are the 2nd Amendment and USA's reputation as a bunch of unwarrantedly arrogant cunts.

Admittedly, Europe's politics don't fare much better, but at least "liberal" generally actually means "someone who likes liberties" instead of "Bolshevik who wants to ban everything they don't like". Of course, in turn the other parties are more openly left-of-center Let's-Ban-Everything-We-Don't-Like nanny Bolshevik, which wouldn't be a problem if PEOPLE DIDN'T FUCKING LIKE IT.
>>
No. 19181 ID: b6edd6

>>19175
While we are on the subject of definitions, do you also believe that 'argument' is interchangeable with 'assertion'?
>>
No. 19185 ID: f61b94

>>19175

Oh for fuck's sakes.

Simply saying a thing is untrue and providing no further reasoning is a great way to demonstrate one's total refusal to budge on an issue to any argument whatsoever.

Which essentially makes you the worst kind of person, really. There are less and less people I know nowadays that use the terms interchangably because language changes, and 100% acceptance is never necessary for language to change. If you think this is outrageous and a travesty of liberal media then fuck off back to Conservapedia or something because there is no point trying to argue with a person like that and there is even less of a point of you trying to argue against every other person here when there is basically no-one who holds your retarded viewpoint of "people are wrong and so the wrong thing is right". I guess dolphins are also fish and fission and fusion are both synonyms for nuclear, then! I mean they both mean radioactive stuff, right??? I guess there's nine planets too because that's what everyone knows even though that's not the case any more. It's either 8 or the number you get by adding all the dwarf planets to that number. Why? Changing definitions.

By all means, continue to think you are the one right person fighting your war against a horde of pretentious fucks, because that's what you'll do anyway and this entire post might as well have been a pasted chunk of War and Peace for all the fucking difference this will have on your mindset.

Congratulations, I mad. I'm pretty sure the only reason you could be this deliberately retarded is either because you're a complete moron or you're trying to get a rise out of people with your anti-intellectualism. I'm going to cut you some slack and assume it's the latter, so 10/10 from me
>>
No. 19223 ID: bdf35e

>>19185

Please calm down so we can have a fair and balanced discussion, comrade.
>>
No. 19226 ID: d6ae01

>>19223
This is the Big Dumb Arguments thread, not the Let's Sip Tea And Discuss This Issue Like Gentlemen thread. You are hereby commanded to be more angry.
>>
No. 19234 ID: b1b6ab

>>19185
>"Please say at least one thing that isn't 'u mad bro', 'nope.avi', or at least something resembling a coherent counter-argument"
>>19223
>"u mad"
>"nope.avi"
>>
No. 19235 ID: bdf35e

>>19234

What? I'm trying to maintain a courteous atmosphere, you ball-fondling asslicker.

All I'm sayin' is, the people make the language. The people have spoken, and gender means sex. When a word is understood to mean one thing that is what a word means.

But go on, please. Continue dancing on the head of a pin with all the other woodland faeries. The evidence is all around you, should you ever choose to crack open the door. Take off your jizz-encrusted fursuits and embrace society - talk to someone outside of your online circlejerk for a change. YOU MIGHT JUST LEARN SOMETHING.
>>
No. 19238 ID: b6edd6

>>19235
>"The people have spoken"
By which you mean the person. By which you mean yourself.

This is how the 'debate' has progressed:
- Madmadmad: Everyone agrees with my stance.
- Other people: And you say that on what basis?
- Madmadmad: Everyone agrees with my stance.
- Other people: So you aren't going to justify that statement?
- Madmadmad: Everyone agrees with my stance. Also your gay.
Do you dispute this? Maybe point to some reasoning or evidence that you stated but we missed?

And no, vaguely alluding to 'the evidence' does not count as justification if you don't actually provide that evidence.
>>
No. 19239 ID: bdf35e

Uh, no I obviously don't have scientific evidence. This isn't the type of thing you can really put a number on. What exactly are you suggesting?
>>
No. 19240 ID: b6edd6

I know you can't exactly do a study, but I think a statement like "The people have spoken" needs some examples (such as which people) or logic to back it up.
Without that, you are essentially in a game of "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" etc.
>>
No. 19241 ID: bdf35e

>>19240

The only thing that anybody here is going to offer is unverifiable statements, and that is just fine as long as the conversation isn't boring. Unfortunately it *is* boring. Can anybody think of an issue the board isn't just going to clump up over?

>Without that, you are essentially in a game of "Yes it is" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "No it isn't" etc.

No, it isn't like that at all.








am i right

(No.)
>>
No. 19256 ID: f5ead2

>>19235
Wait, can't we embrace society while wearing our jizz encrusted fursuits?

thatsmyfetish.bmp
>>
No. 19258 ID: 4183c9
File 132293335692.jpg - (91.86KB , 400x349 , unotmadbutumad.jpg )
19258

Just as bdf35e did not say U MAD, I did not post an image macro.

The aliens did.
>>
No. 19294 ID: 55f0cc

>>19241
With or without quotes, examples, charts, studies, or whatever your argument isn't even reasonable. "SEX" and "GENDER" are different words with different origins that, in some situations, may be used to convey the same thing. Want me to get in dictionary mode? The word "GENDER" comes from the Latin "GENUS", that meant "KIND". Without sexual connotation, therefore.
>>
No. 19295 ID: 6a5a08

>>19294
Malekind.
Femalekind.
Your argument is an argument- This statement cannot be disputed.
>>
No. 19298 ID: bdf35e

>>19294

>latin

Don't see a lot of people going around speaking latin these days. There's probably a reason nobody uses that shitty-ass language anymore.

>The word "GENDER" comes from the Latin "GENUS", that meant "KIND".

Why don't you go stroke an animal's "penis" (latin, "tail")? Surely you wouldn't object, given the etymology?
>>
No. 19301 ID: 55f0cc

>>19295
If two kinds of kind are sexually related, then all kinds of kind are sexually related! Brilliant!

>>19298
You really suck at this.
>>
No. 19323 ID: 580454

Holy shit, is it fucking news to you that words can have more than one meaning?

Gender DOESN'T always mean the same thing as sex. It does SOMETIMES. Maybe even MOST of the time. But it's far from the only thing it means. Why the fuck do you keep saying otherwise? You look fucking retarded.

And by the way, "penis" stopped being used to mean "tail" in Latin before English even existed. Kind of a big difference there.
>>
No. 19324 ID: bdf35e

>>19301

>I, f0cc, do not understand, but I wish not to admit it

What is confusing you? Please don't hesitate to ask, there are no stupid questions.

>>19323

>Kind of a big difference there.

The statement was tacked on and irrelevant. I was making fun of him for being silly. No need to blow a tampon.
>>
No. 19326 ID: a30b71

>>19324
You're not addressing the subject. Again.
>>
No. 19327 ID: d60822

>>19324
You're substantially lowering the level of discourse in this thread.
>>
No. 19330 ID: 9c7c3b

So, uh, uh.

Chrome or Firefox?
>>
No. 19331 ID: 533ab8

>>19330
links2 -g
Every page style displays all posts as if you selected the pony style. So I'm sorry but there can be no argument on that subject Mr.Dusk Island.
>>
No. 19333 ID: 25d956

>>19323
That's not entirely true. It was used the same as we would use "cock." It still meant "tail," but was also a euphemism for a dude's dong.
>>
No. 19335 ID: d60822

>>19330
Chrome has a smaller UI, has tabs as independent processes, and most importantly has the best 4chan add on. It's a pretty easy decision in my mind. Only reason not to use it that applies to people with usage habits similar to my own (probably most of you) would be if you hate Google.

>>19331
I don't really understand the sorcery of which you speak, but
>displays all posts as if you selected the pony style.
Why not just use pony style?
>>
No. 19344 ID: bb7f20

>>19333
That was how the meaning came to be established. By the time AD rolled around the bend, using 'penis' to mean tail was archaic. Not obsolete, I will admit, but archaic nonetheless.
>>
No. 19365 ID: 97cc92

>>Chrome has a smaller UI
Not if you change the Firefox UI. And Chrome doesn't let you have a real Adblock that blocks things before they load.
>>
No. 19366 ID: b6edd6

I use Firefox because I can't stand how chrome handles lots of tabs (If you guys know how to change this, that would be useful).
When you have lots of tabs in firefox, they stop shrinking and start being scrollable, where in chrome lots of tabs makes each tab incredibly small and inconvenient.
>>
No. 19374 ID: 3bd8ec

After going through a period of time where I switched web browsers every few months, I settled on Chrome on the grounds that it has been less prone to leak huge amounts of memory for no reason.

An attempt to switch back to Firefox earlier this year was aborted after the browser proved to be even worse about this than it hat been before.
>>
No. 19396 ID: 1444d5

Forget memory leaks, I'm finding it hard to convince Firefox to use MORE memory. I've got 8gb just lying about doing mostly nothing, and no matter how many tabs I open FF won't use more than 1.5gb. And that's with ~300 tabs over 11 windows at last count (bad habit or using a tab in place of a bookmark, as bookmarks don't retain position and state).
>>
No. 19398 ID: 3bd8ec

>>19396
Your experience is basically the opposite of mine. Left it running with under twenty tabs while I was out and came back to discover it had broken 5GB while doing fuck all.
>>
No. 19427 ID: 1444d5

>>19398
Admittedly, I'm using Palemoon rather than vanilla Firefox, and 3.6.whateverthelatestsecurityupdateis rather than whatever shiny new UI fuckup the newest official version is.
>>
No. 19550 ID: 4183c9

>>356941
I think the "joke" here is that at least someone keeps reporting suggestions just because he doesn't like them.
>>
No. 19551 ID: 2563d4

I think the joke here
>>/quest/372101
is that some people are so partisan
>>/quest/372123
about fictional races
>>/quest/372171
that they're willing to troll a quest
>>/quest/372173
because their waifus of choice
>>/quest/372176
are not currently in control.

Which is kind of annoying when I just give quest enough credit to say "now now, don't assume sabotage when they could just be dumb", only to get that latter blatant votestuff. (Minutes apart, same quoted posts? Hello Beakie.)

>>356945
Someone beat me to it for all but one which was just biting on them in-thread. :V Bloody report system needs transactions.
>>
No. 19552 ID: 4183c9

>>356948
Most of those suggestions don't look very serious.
>>
No. 19553 ID: 5aae31

>>356948
Hey, the cool kids were doing it, and I think it's kinda blatantly not serious.
>>
No. 19554 ID: 049dfa

>>356948

>Which is kind of annoying when I just give quest enough credit to say "now now, don't assume sabotage

You should stop reading this quest.

I hate to break it to you, but every side in this is going to be influenced by the players (unless the quest isn't going to force even distribution of control, which gives immediate control of the quest to any coalition that decides to dictate the active party), and the players are going to metagame the shit out of it. These are things that were immediately obvious as soon as 'okay now pick which other race to control' came up.

The issue here is that every side is eventually going to have tactical omniscience. every. Side. Because the same group of players are going to be suggesting for every. side.

What does this mean? It means that it is going to be completely impossible for the players to get any side to win. The only way for there to be a win in that case is for the forces to be unbalanced enough that the outcome is a forgone conclusion and player input is irrelevant.

Of course, since making any given party win is impossible, the only way for a player to actually influence the outcome of the quest is to make the other parties lose. Due to the structure of the quest, coercing the sides you do not like into making mistakes (which you refer to as sabotage) is actually the only way to actually impact the result of the quest. If anything, you should be happy about posts that are clearly silly and ridiculous because they're just being ridiculous instead of trying to actually sabotage a side.


Of course, as mentioned, sabotage is the only means of legitimately impacting the narrative in the first place - and thus saboteurs are the only players who can help determine the results of the quest. So complaining about the players in the game playing the game by the only rules through which it can advance is asinine.
>>
No. 19555 ID: e3aff6

>>356956
People like you are the main reason why munchkins are generally hated.
The point of a game is to actually play the game, not to get your preferred ending as fast as possible through whatever means while avoiding any actual gameplay. Quests are not speedruns.

You are also making the assumption that /quest/ always has ideas of the same quality, and that there is no way that you personally can constructively contribute to that. I would ask why you post at all if you feel that you can never contribute anything useful to a quest. If you can do so, then you can influence the quest by giving constructive advice to your preferred side and simply not advising the others.
>>
No. 19556 ID: b79855

>>356956

Please stop trying to ruin the quest.
>>
No. 19557 ID: 049dfa

>>356960

>People like you are the main reason why munchkins are generally hated.

People like you should shut the fuck up and make sure that they actually know what they're talking about before they go smarting off to people.

1 - I don't participate in Battle Quest (outside of having made one legitimate suggestion), because I can already see how it will go. I'm not interested in sabotage quest, so I'm staying out of it.
2 - It doesn't matter if there are people who aren't going to metagame, there absolutely are people who ARE going to metagame. And those who don't play by the same rules are simply giving all of the power to those who do.
3 - Given the structure of this quest, the game is actually about convincing other people to make 'their' side fuck up. That is the one thing that CAN lead to results. Early on, where the quest is now, this is lessened significantly. But after people have made the rounds through the factions once or twice it is all that will matter.
4 - You could influence the quest by giving constructive advice to your side but not others, but you will be influencing it less (and, eventually, not at all) compared to those who play both ends. As soon as the players have access to all information regarding enemy movements, the entire game becomes intentionally making tactical mistakes. When the players are also INFLUENCING those enemy movements, this is only exacerbated.

This has nothing to do with munchkinism. This has nothing to do with speedruns. Just blindly comparing someone to things that you don't like, even when they have nothing to do with what is going on, because they are saying something you find unpleasant makes you a faggot of the highest order.

Especially when you don't actually even say anything to try to refute their point.
>>
No. 19558 ID: 049dfa

>>356961

Hey test:

Where the fuck have I made a non-legitimate suggestion? I made ONE suggestion in the quest and it is completely legit.

I'm saying that throwing a fit about people trying to sabotage the quest when they're being silly is stupid, and is EXTRA stupid because the very nature of the quest makes sabotage the only relevant means of accomplishing a goal, since I am assuming that the result is not a forgone conclusion of 'this side is basically guaranteed to win.' I'm giving you guys the benefit of the doubt here by assuming that suggestions matter -- the issue is that the suggestions that matter the most are going to be the ones that are trying surreptitiously to get a side to FAIL to accomplish a goal.
>>
No. 19559 ID: b79855

But that's wrong. All sabotage posts do is make us more likely to throw out the course of action the saboteur proposes.

If you want to help out a side, make good plans for them when it's their turn. If you absolutely cannot stand the idea of multiple sides and must help one side to win at all costs, just don't post during other turns.
>>
No. 19560 ID: 049dfa

>>356965

Yes, for blatantly silly and obvious ones. Hence why the game is about convincing people to screw up instead of just saying 'screw up.'

If you're just going to dismiss any suggestion that would be harmful because it might be intentional, what is even the fucking point of suggesting? If players can't screw up on purpose, they literally can't screw up at ALL.
>>
No. 19561 ID: b79855

Every quest deals with dumb suggestions. It's the self-destructive ones I'm worried about, which should be pretty easy to spot.

But it is absolutely not true that the only way to advance one side is sabotage. There's plenty of opportunity for clever plans. That's a much better way to do it than posting suggestions that are worse than the others, but not identifiably worse.

Saying "the only way to win is sabotage" is just encouraging bad behavior.

You can go into any quest and try to make them lose. It's not acceptable there and it's not acceptable here.
>>
No. 19562 ID: 049dfa

>>356968

>Saying "the only way to win is sabotage" is just encouraging bad behavior.

In any situation where a group of people on opposing sides have the same knowledge and the ability to directly influence the other side, it IS. You can dance around the issue all you like. It's still an issue. I'm not saying that people SHOULD do it. I'm saying that people WILL do it. Because it is absolutely the most likely course of action to achieve a result in a case of shared omniscience.

When every side knows the same things, mistakes are the only thing that matters. It doesn't much matter if you come up with a clever plan when the other side already knows your clever plan. The only thing they can do to make your clever plan work is fail to respond to it, which makes suggestions that lead to failure the suggestions that matter the most. Which means that the best way to influence the results is to take an active hand in controlling who fails.

This isn't even complicated.
>>
No. 19563 ID: b79855

>It doesn't much matter if you come up with a clever plan when the other side already knows your clever plan.

When we go "okay, we'll implement your clever plan next turn... now control switches to the guys you were about to ambush!" or equivalent, then that will be a problem, and not before.

PS: Adopting a fringe position and calling people who disagree faggots is not helpful feedback.
>>
No. 19564 ID: 049dfa

>>356971

>When we go "okay, we'll implement your clever plan next turn... now control switches to the guys you were about to ambush!" or equivalent, then that will be a problem, and not before.

If you don't think that the metagaming involved in knowing every side of a battle has already started, you're an idiot. Long Term plans matter a shit-ton more than short-term ones.

Also it's classy how you're avoiding the actual point in favor of bringing up a single nebulous possible event. And then accusing me of 'unhelpful feedback' while failing to even make an ATTEMPT to address my point.

>PS: Adopting a fringe position and calling people who disagree faggots is not helpful feedback.

PPS: I never called anyone a faggot for disagreeing with me, I called someone a faggot for insulting me (which was clearly the intent) for saying something they disagreed with without even bothering to respond to it.

Again: How are you going to differentiate between the people who are making honest mistakes and making intentional mistakes? How are you going to deal with the issues of what shared omniscience actually means in any sort of competitive environment (which, given your responses here, you clearly haven't)? These are the two most important lines of text in this thread, and are also more important than literally anything that has happened yet in the quest itself (as well as anything that will likely happen within the next several weeks). Calling it 'bad feedback' is just avoiding the issue.
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No. 19568 ID: e3aff6

Your logic is apparently that people can gain an advantage by cheating, and people are bound to cheat at least some, so everyone should always cheat as much as they can. That is essentailly like saying that there is no point in every playing sports if you do not use steroids.

While it is fairly certain that people will metagame some, it is perfectly plausible for players to not metagame as much as possible whenever possible. Games which people do not cheat the fuck out of are a thing that actually exist, but if everyone assumes from the start that things will go to shit than of course they will.

And extensive metagaming to give your character an advantage that makes no sense in-character is exactly what munchkinism is. To munchkin to the extent that you are endorsing makes the game substantially worse, thus people hate that sort of behavior.
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No. 19569 ID: b79855

>>356972

I don't understand where you're going with any of this. What is your win condition for this argument? Because all I'm getting is "your quest is bad and you should feel bad."

I don't care to point out what central argument I thought you had that I thought I responded to in which post or what you actually meant or whatever other semantic dicksizing we're supposed to be engaging in. If you don't have any constructive feedback, then this belongs in BDA.
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No. 19570 ID: 049dfa

Your logic is apparently that people can gain an advantage by cheating, and people are bound to cheat at least some, so everyone should always cheat as much as they can.

No, it isn't. Read my fucking posts.

My logic is that 'cheating' is so much more powerful, so easy to do, and so undetectable that people WILL do it, and being outraged by somebody making silly, obvious posts along the same lines is a waste of energy.

Especially since the only things in a shared omniscience system that can ultimately influence the outcome in a meaningful way are controlled failure and forming a voting coalition to force a certain faction to be played more than others.

To munchkin to the extent that you are endorsing makes the game substantially worse, thus people hate that sort of behavior.

Which has fuck-all to do with anything I have said or done.

Also I haven't endorsed a goddamn thing, I've just said that it is the metagamers who are going to end up pulling all of the relevant strings in this ques. Did you miss the part where I said that that was one of the reasons that I don't actually plan to participate in it?
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No. 19573 ID: 049dfa

>>356976

>I don't understand where you're going with any of this. What is your win condition for this argument? Because all I'm getting is "your quest is bad and you should feel bad."

1 - I never said anything about the quest being bad.
2 - There is no 'win condition' here.
3 - The point was that if a batch of flagrant joke suggestions is going to make Phil mad because they're 'trying to sabotage the quest,' he probably shouldn't read it because the quest is constructed in a way that will reward sabotage more than playing it the 'right' way. Since he'll just get mad.

>I don't like it so it belongs in the BDA thread

Fuck you too. I am making posts that are raising the issues that, if you address them, will make your quest the best it can be. How you would address them I don't know, I don't see a way around them that doesn't offer its own significant drawbacks (Lessening the value of suggester input, removing the possibility of mistakes, et cetera). But if you did find one hey good on you. In fact, if people actually sat down and discussed this one could even potentially be discovered! Why is the framework of a quest beyond discussion?
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No. 19577 ID: 953355

Okay we can do that.
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No. 19578 ID: 049dfa

>>19577

Seriously though that is definitely a thing.
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No. 19579 ID: e3aff6

>the only way for a player to actually influence the outcome of the quest is to make the other parties lose
>sabotage is the only means of legitimately impacting the narrative in the first place
Sounds like an endorsement of sabotage to me. You may not have meant it that way, but everyone else in the thread read it that way.

You do bring up a legitimate problem, but the way that you brought it up gets in the way of people actually discussing it rather than arguing.
Stating your argument in terms like "So complaining about the players in the game playing the game by the only rules through which it can advance is asinine." and then expecting your point to be calmly considered is rather unrealistic.
You can argue that it is other people's fault for getting angry, but If you expect them not to you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

So, about the actual issue you raised:
Why is metagaming based sabotage vastly more effective than metagaming based plans? (Both are problematic, but the sabotaging is much more obnoxious.) I would think a plan can be executed without being harmed by the tactical omniscience if the players are playing as the planning force for the duration of the plan.
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No. 19580 ID: 049dfa

>>19579

>Sounds like an endorsement of sabotage to me. You may not have meant it that way, but everyone else in the thread read it that way.

Everyone else in the thread read it wrong. That is not my fault.

It's not an ENDORSEMENT of sabotage, it is a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW OF THE SYSTEM that simply renders sabotage more effective. I even said SEVERAL TIMES that it was a PROBLEM I foresaw with the quest!

>You can argue that it is other people's fault for getting angry, but If you expect them not to you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Lionsphil (who I was responding to in the first place) has shown plenty of capacity to respond coherently to a post even while he was angry. You seem to think that I expect people to not be angry. I just don't care if people get angry.

>Why is metagaming based sabotage vastly more effective than metagaming based plans?

Because plans often require multiple things to go right and/or a lot of time to come to fruition. ESPECIALLY plans in a military campaign. Whereas sabotage can instantly change the balance of power.

Sabotage can also take a ton of different forms, like coercing people to abandon or alter a plan in order to make another side more capable of exploiting it.

You are missing the point where the OKAY NOW FAIL! method of sabotage isn't the relevant type. It's the more subtle kind, like persuading people to take actions that are less of a good idea to weaken the position of the active party.

If all of the sides have roughly the same group of people working to advance their position, they're all going to be able to progress roughly evenly. Especially since everyone knows everything (shared omniscience). At this point, what really determines the victor isn't surprise advancement (any advancement taking place over the course of a given update will most likely not be enough to actually change the scope of a campaign). It's mistakes. And sabotage is how you force mistakes on your opponent.

When everyone knows everything, MISTAKES are what ultimately determine victory and defeat, and sabotage lets you take an active hand in mistakes. This makes it far more powerful than suggesting the best course of action for your side of choice.
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No. 19584 ID: e3aff6

>>19580
I would agree that subtly sabotaging would be a significant problem, but I am not sure if it would be a complete game-breaker.
I think it would be somewhat difficult and fairly unreliable to make suggestions that both cause a major disadvantage and are convincing enough to out-compete the normal suggestions.
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No. 19599 ID: 25d956

>>19584
It's simple if you think about it this way: If you want one faction to win, and only make suggestions to help them legitimately, you are only suggesting 1/3 of the time. If you want one faction to win, and make good suggestions on their turn and bad suggestions on the other factions turns, you are influencing the outcome 3xs as much. This is the same problem I saw with the quest when it started. People are not going to let their waifu species lose.

Also if one author is more harsh and one generally goes for more positive outcomes, then it could actually be better to ONLY MAKE BAD SUGGESTIONS because there is a chance that your "good ideas" will blow up in your face. Of course, if the authors do this (and it seems likely that they will - Test and Lonelyworld have like, almost opposite questing styles) it makes one faction far more likely to win anyway.
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No. 19605 ID: e3aff6

Hm, yes that is a serious problem that people with a seriously preferred faction will 2/3 of the time either be suggesting to a faction that they are against or not suggesting at all.
That way, even if sabotaging isn't an easy win, for partisan people there isn't another way they can get involved with the quest 2/3 of the time.
So I guess I agree that the quest wouldn't really work for the people who are obsessed with a particular faction winning.
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No. 19607 ID: 049dfa

>>19605

another thing along the same lines is that someone can easily try to force a side to lose by just making sure to focus both of the other sides' attentions on removing it. It's pure metagaming, and there's nothing that can really be done about it.

Remember: The people who are suggesting for all sides equally, whichever side is currently active, and without a bias ARE NOT GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO A CONCLUSION. They'll just be in an endless stalemate loop with themselves. How much power other people are going to end with is going to line up directly with how many factions they decide to use to further their own preferred ends.
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No. 21063 ID: 72d49b

>>>/questdis/361940
>MGQ centers upon a particular setting conceit (human semen being a high energy source
It doesn't really, though. This comes into the story very infrequently - the Succubus Village is the only time I can think of off the top of my head, and that's normal for succubi. The vast majority of the story would work just the same if the monsters weren't sexualized females.

>Also, I guess I just had a personal preference for Katawa Shoujo's focus upon more personal stories and characterization
But even though it focuses on that more, it doesn't really do a better job of it. Dance 'Till Tomorrow does, that one I'll concede, but Katawa Shoujo? Not really.

Of course, one could question if some of this really counts as porn. The porn in KS is rare, the sex in DTT, while not rare, isn't really focused on graphically and seems more like the sex scenes in a film than in a porno. And even in MGQ, which does have plenty of pornographic content, those scenes are more or less ancillary.

>>>/questdis/361966
Give it a shot, if you want to.
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No. 21068 ID: 2040c8

>>21063
Ah, yes, this is definitely a better place for this discussion, even if you and I've been fairly civil with each other (and I'd really like it to stay that way, since I've been enjoying this discussion). By the way, I'm the one who talked about stuff like Dance Until Tomorrow, Katawa Shoujo, etc.

Yes, it's quite notable that in general, the stories without an overabundance of sex tend to be better. And, agreed on Dance Until Tomorrow being better than Katawa Shoujo, really. But like I said, I think we can agree on it being possible to use sex for titillation value and still have a decent plot.

A lot of the loss scenes actually focus upon the monster girl basically feasting upon Luka's semen, though those're more porn than plot anyway. I think you said you skipped those loss scenes, right?

MDQ does have some interesting moral quandaries, but they're of limited universality and heavily dependent upon the setting's concepts. They're still interesting, though, I guess.

I guess it does raises interesting questions for "is it possible for two or more hypothetical species, at least one with somewhat predatory tendencies toward the other, to coexist peacefully?". Actually, a good example of that is Three Stripes from the Asteroid Quest intermission.
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No. 21069 ID: 2040c8

Also, KS does have enough flaws that you could easily argue over its merits. A large part of why I liked it, though, was because it helped raise awareness of disabled people and involved them sexually in a fairly respectful way. It humanized people that it's very easy for many to dehumanize.

And there're many ways of dehumanizing disabled people, from ostracizing them to elevating them as Special and focusing on their disability over their other characteristics. A lot of "uplifting stories about disabled people overcoming their difficulties" fall into that trap. Also, Magical Disabled People which's just as insidious as the Magical Negro (or general Magical Minority) trope.

I'm deaf, so I have a particular perspective on this. I do have a few quibbles about a few details related to Shizune, but they're more like minor nitpicks and not really worth noting here.
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No. 21071 ID: 72d49b

>A lot of the loss scenes actually focus upon the monster girl basically feasting upon Luka's semen, though those're more porn than plot anyway. I think you said you skipped those loss scenes, right?
I did skip the majority of them. They're not considered canon parts of the story by most folks anyway though.

>they're of limited universality and heavily dependent upon the setting's concepts
Not really. Some are very unlikely to come up in most people's lives, or are portrayed such that they seem that way at first (like "dying for your beliefs won't do anybody any good" which Chapter 2 really did a lot of at the end there for some reason) but they mostly focus on growing up or just being a good person in general (like "You are your own person, regardless of what your dad did" and "Don't construct an image of what a hero is and try to act like that, just try to do the right thing in general").

>I guess it does raises interesting questions for "is it possible for two or more hypothetical species, at least one with somewhat predatory tendencies toward the other, to coexist peacefully?"
It's not really about species though, so much as different cultural/national groups. The fact that monsters and humans are different species just serves to emphasize differences and distance it a bit from real life issues of race.

>>21069
Yeah, KS does a great job of portraying disadvantaged people in a fair and non-discriminatory light. That's essentially its main selling point, and it does that very well. To be honest though, I don't really see "not discriminatory" as particularly high praise when it comes to story. It's a "here's something the story doesn't do wrong" to me, rather than a "here's something the story does right".
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No. 21073 ID: 68ff50

This does seem like a much better place for that, cool.

My experience was being talked into playing a translation of the first part of the game, because someone wanted me to express an opinion of it. If it "got better" in the second half then I just wouldn't know.
I think that the pedophilia part of the porn is terrifying to somebody who doesn't want that shit because it's illegal in large parts of the world, but that doesn't specifically mean that the story is bad. The whole thing being a series of separate encounters between various strange fetish creations and an apparent human male both is and isn't relevant to how bad the story is; I'm willing to concede that this fact alone does not mean it has a bad story. Instead I will talk about what directly makes it a bad story: The characters, the setting and the plot.

Rule of thumb: Any story that relies on any of its characters being an idiot is a bad story. Luka is setting off on his journey to be a hero and doesn't somehow figure something is up when he doesn't get his "hero blessing" at the beginning. He has the (obvious) end badguy show up at the very beginning and start following him around, this end badguy even hands him a weapon to fight against murderers/rapists/kidnappers that won't really harm them because he'd rather be raped/murdered/kidnapped than defend himself with lethal means. He doesn't notice that he's being prepped as waifu for the end badguy, despite it being really fucking obvious. Now I get that the sort of person who wants to go off into the wilderness and fight random shit where there's no toilet paper or showers around all the time, risking their life constantly, would have to be more adrenaline-junky than smart. Failing that they would at least have to have a really fucking good reason to engage in such dangerous shit. But he's really fucking dumb if he doesn't get that this is what's going on and I refuse to give him a pass on that because he somehow is smart enough not to die on this trip of something stupid like food poisoning, poisonous berries or crap like that. That's plot-consistent, idiot-ball dumb; no pass, no sale, it fails.

The setting concept fuel that dick-snot is an important source of magic/energy actually doesn't bother me so much. Lots of primitive cultures believed there was magic involved in fertility so I'm mostly willing to give them a pass on that actually. The setting concepts that do bother me are why there are no male monsters, and why is there inter-species fertility between humans and these monsters? I get it, your porn plot and porn encounters need this magic-source nonsense in order to function, and your "bad ends" to many fights as breeding slave or waifu to many of the monsters wouldn't make sense if Luka couldn't make them pregnant. But there is a conspicuous hole gap here: Considering the wide variety of alarming or illegal fetishes at work in this game it is a very specific gap that there aren't any gay rapist monsters out to steal Luka's magic-juice. What's that, you're telling me most guys are straight and this inclusion would piss off the wankers who don't want to see Luka getting buttfucked so that the other monsters can drink more of his jizz? Well, that's an obvious fudge of the setting to pander to the porn instead of create a consistent world where monsters breed with other monsters.
Some of this crap, like the weird underwater shit, doesn't even make sense because how the heck would these things get enough men to breed with? Yeah, I know, men washed overboard from ships. Well that doesn't work very well for me because shipbuilding and seafaring is a technology that didn't exist before civilization so this variety of underwater monsters would have been stuck without jizz to breed with or feed on up until human society suddenly existed. Addressing this fact would require either an Adam and Eve style gods created everything plot where human seafaring technology and practice existed in time to feed these monsters, or these monsters having been created after this technology somehow. Those are both possible explanations but neither is implemented. That may be something they kept back for part 2, I don't know; your mileage may vary on this point.

The plot is that dude who doesn't want to kill murderer/rapist/kidnapper animals goes running around the forest being attacked by them, mostly being sexually teased and flirted at while he tries to hack them to bits with a sword that won't kill them. This is part of an obvious scheme to set him up as waifu for the end badguy, who happens to be a weird snakegirl with a single personality detail of thinking with her stomach. This badguy is pretty obviously setting up at least some of the fights he's involved in, which he seems not to notice, but I've already talked about how much of an idiot he is so let's skip past that. Let's talk about the ass-pull of him being a sudden badass the moment he goes to sleep, discovered in the fight with the foxgirl with the tailjob attack. (Oh really, a tailjob attack.) I'm pretty sure this is the crude bullshit equivalent of attempted foreshadowing about how Luka is special somehow, but I'm calling deus ex machina on that crap: Sudden reveal of powers with no foreshadowing to win an otherwise unwinnable fight.

There's other details like the marry a monster pyramid challenge that I'm just not getting into because either they're defendable or I just can't be bothered. What I have left is my spike: Gender flip everything. Luka the chick being lead around by a snakeman as part of a plot to set her up as his waifu. She lacks the courage to face murderer/kidnapper/rapist monsters with lethal force and needs a special wuss-blade that won't actually kill the monsters that are trying to rape her or worse. Strangely most of them just try to tease her instead of physically overpowering her and raping her. Suddenly this whole thing is revealed as being as totally dumb as I knew it was the moment I first heard of it.
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No. 21076 ID: 58a693

>>21073
I actually mostly agree with you about your criticisms of the story, although the stupid protagonist problem is an anime protagonist problem more than a this game problem. Not that that makes it good.

I'd just point out one thing about your problem with the setting generally:

The monster girls are literally magical, supernatural creatures crafted by a literal goddess to prey on humanity, and not some sort of product of evolution that is supposed to be purely biological. They are fairly suited to the task they were created for, as is explained more fully in the second part of the game, and actually wouldn't be able to do that if they weren't reliant on humans to reproduce.

I mean, it's obviously designed to facilitate the porn, but they made a world consistent with the porn they wanted to facilitate instead of just "everything is monstergirls lol."

Also as far as Luka being special, I mean, anime protagonist. How stupid you think it is depends on how stupid you think most anime/fantasy stories are where the protagonist is the reincarnation/descendant of the last big hero guy.

I didn't think the story was like, fucking literature or anything, but I thought it was a lot better done than it had to be for something that is basically a porn game, and better than a lot of anime that uses the same tropes.
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No. 21077 ID: 72d49b

>>21073
Luka's kind of dense, but I don't think he's generally dense beyond what could be considered realistically possible. Without meta thought, it's not super obvious that Alice is the monster lord until right about when Luka finds out anyway, although it's obvious that she's fairly powerful and important (which Luka does surmise). It's also a bit of a case of him not thinking too much about things and being an unreliable narrator, notice how when he discovers something that was obvious to the player, he isn't usually surprised and there tends to be a line about the evidence regarding it in the past; he's not as unaware as he seems to be. This comes out more explicitly towards the end of act two though, he does seem to be more just dense in act one.

And the sword is actually a more effective combat weapon than his iron one, and monsters when sealed are rendered harmless. At least temporarily, but he's only had to re-fight one by the end of act two, even though there's more than a couple who are un-sealed. And he does bust out the iron sword later in part two, but it's only for serious shit, not his general "fight everything" scenario.

I agree that the "no male monsters" thing is obviously just for the sake of the porn, but I don't think this actually detracts from anything in terms of themes or storyline.

Regarding tech and the genesis of humans and monsters, I think that's held back until part 3, because In that act Ilias is planning on "remaking" the world, so it's probable that the truth about the world's original genesis will come out somehow but regardless of how things came about I'm willing to bet evolution wasn't a big part of it and humans were basically civilized from the get-go.

The power that comes out in the Nanabi fight may come off as a bit mary-sue, but I don't think a Deus Ex Machina complaint is valid here - a sudden reveal like that is a better way to reveal his abnormal nature in my mind than some more gradual foreshadowing, at least in my opinion. Being supernatural as he is doesn't seem to have contributed much yet, but considering that almost nothing on this topic has yet been revealed, I reckon there will be some relevant storyline in the third act.

>Gender flip everything
Well, some of Luka's motivations, particularly regarding his relationship with his father, would make less sense then. And I do see your point that thematically using seduction rather than force would be a bit silly there. But I don't really see anything negative that also reflects back on the real-life version of the game which isn't gender-flipped.


Not saying the story is utterly flawless or anything, but I think you're overstating its flaws considerably.>>21076

>>21076
>The monster girls are literally magical, supernatural creatures crafted by a literal goddess to prey on humanity,
Source on this claim? The official story according to the Ilias temple is that monsters were an accident, essentially, and as far as I know we really don't have any information on the actual creation of the world. I mean, I know what you're saying is true of the chimeric monsters but they're hardly a majority.

>Also as far as Luka being special, I mean, anime protagonist.
That's not an excuse for anything.

>the reincarnation/descendant of the last big hero guy.
We've seen nothing to indicate that this is literally the case, although he is certainly following in Heinrich's footsteps to a significant degree.
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No. 21078 ID: 58a693

>>21077
Wow. Can you not fucking read? I literally said in the next sentence after the one you quote that it doesn't make the trope not stupid. Jesus Christ go fuck yourself.
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No. 21079 ID: 72d49b

>>21078
>I literally said
>literally
Not even close, bro.
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No. 21080 ID: 58a693

>>21079

>Also as far as Luka being special, I mean, anime protagonist. How stupid you think it is depends on how stupid you think most anime/fantasy stories are where the protagonist is the reincarnation/descendant of the last big hero guy.


You are a goddamn idiot.
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No. 21082 ID: e3f578

>>21080
That's crude
Things were going so civil in this argument about the quality of MonsterGirl porn as legit story.

I would like to say that the post is reasonbly hard to read because of the structure of these arguments are confusing. Long sentences are being made, double negatives, etc.

As
>Also as far as Luka being special, I mean, anime protagonist. How stupid you think it is depends on how stupid you think most anime/fantasy stories are where the protagonist is the reincarnation/descendant of the last big hero guy.
IS a big, fairly confusing sentence the human mind will naturally skip over. It's awkward to say and read, and I wouldn't blame anyone for misreading it or skipping over this sentence.
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No. 21083 ID: 58a693

>>21082
He quoted both of those sentences in his big post, then tried to act like a smug faggot when I used the word "literally" even though it was actually the very next sentence.
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No. 21084 ID: 58a693

>>21082
Also I think Cruxador being a nitpicky twat is annoying. It's especially fucking stupid when he is completely wrong about the shit he is nitpicking.
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No. 21085 ID: 72d49b

>>21083
The next sentence did not literally say what you subsequently asserted that that sentence literally said. What you literally said was that the stupidity is subjective, and similar to the stupidity of other stories.

Regardless, stop being mad.
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No. 21089 ID: 58a693

>>21085
This is something I find irritating about disagreeing with people on the internet generally, and several people on this site particularly.

When you have a debate with people anywhere, including on the internet, if you actually want to learn anything, you need to address what they are saying, not how they are saying it.

I am not trying to say that people shouldn't attempt to be clear in their language, but sometimes someone just isn't as strong a writer, just doesn't feel the need to have to build a linguistic fortress to make their point, or is expressing a complex concept that is easy to misunderstand.

Sometimes, people's arguments can be so garbled or unclear that it is hard to address them, but the proper thing to do is either ask for clarification, or state your assumption explicitly, not assume they are taking the weakest position cognizable under what they wrote.

Looking for minor mistakes or poor phrasing to "snipe" doesn't actually make the debate go anywhere. It derails what could otherwise be an interesting discussion, gets people sidetracked, and makes people invested in "winning" rather than actually thinking about the topic.

And I think I've expressed that just about as well as I could.
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No. 21090 ID: 58a693

>>21085
Just to be clear, in case you don't understand, the phrase "I literally said in the next sentence [some text]" contains ambiguity that makes it possible to be interpreted two ways, but only one of those ways makes sense in the context of the argument.

If you take it to mean, "in the sentence that is actually(literally) after this one, I addressed the very point you complained about," then what you are currently saying is wrong.

If you take it to mean "in the next sentence I literally expressed this specific idea instead of a paraphrasing of that idea" you would be correct now, but for that to be true, you have to be picking the interpretation that makes you 'right' instead of the one that expresses content relevant to the discussion. If you are 'right' now, you're still agreeing with the gist of my original point - the nitpick you had with that sentence was already addressed in the very next sentence.
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No. 21092 ID: 71d68e

Let's forget the argument over what that "literally" meant. If you feel that there's a point where you've been misunderstood, maybe try restating that point?

Good point about semen historically being attributed special qualities because of fertility associations and so on. I think if the game'd included a little more justification about the whole semen being a high energy source (like linking it to its ability to help create life), I could've swallowed it more easily. Feel free to make all the jokes you want about that sentence I just wrote.

Overall, Luka's character arc is largely about him becoming less and less of an idiot. He's basically highly blinded by his own assumptions. We actually see this in real life, where people can exhibit bias that to some might seem them like drooling morons. But it's actually bias that's been cultivated in them by their upbringing, which is very difficult to dislodge. There're entire reams of psychological studies on how people constantly find ways to interpret and rationalize facts in terms of what they think they already know.

Thus, someone can be perfectly competent in many regards and yet totally, utterly wrong-headed about something to the point where they're slow to change it. Luka wants to be a hero. Badly. So badly he'll go out and do it despite the lack of Ilias's blessing. Let's not forget that she actually appears in his dreams, too, telling him to go out and defeat the Monster Lord, and continues to tell him this even after she apparently refused her blessing to him.

The whole "stories shouldn't be about people being idiots" argument is flawed, because a lot of fairly good stories're about that, including ones viewed as classics of literature. The main issue is plausible idiocy versus implausible idiocy, and bad writing often suffers from a lot of the latter. Ultimately it boils down to plausible versus implausible characterization.

I won't say that I didn't raise some questions about Luka's failing to see certain things, but I think the writer could've actually justified that a little more. But Luka does constantly wrestle with the inconsistency of his own beliefs and by the end of the second game, he actually discards the more flawed ones.

Regarding reversing the genders: a world full of sexy monsterboys who seduce human women with mindblowing sex, one of who is cultivating a human heroine wanna-be to be his own personal waifu. Well, you know, that scenario actually seems pretty sexy to me. Or make it a guy-on-guy scenario or a girl-on-girl one, that'd appeal to different audiences.

As for the whole thing abut murderer/rapist monsters, well, you're completely overlooking the whole point about Luka being an idealist who thinks he can help forge a world of peaceful co-existence. And a fair number of those monstergirls actually reformed after their run-in with him. In many cases, it seemed to be a case of misunderstanding, or the monstergirls thinking they had no other options but being shown otherwise.

The Angel Halo isn't exactly that weak a weapon. It's a potent, nearly one-of-a-kind magical artifact (I doubt there're many swords created from 666 melted-down angels).

Trying to physically overpower Luka and rape him... a lot of the monstergirls actually do exactly that. That's the whole point of pinning attacks. And the second game introduces pins that're impossible for normal humans to avoid or break free of, though Luka gains a method of attaining inhuman strength and speed which tends to startle the monstergirls because a human shouldn't be able to break free and such.


That isn't to say that there aren't holes in the plot. For example, the stuff about aquatic monstergirls. Luka perhaps should be more aware that he's apparently being prepared to be a waifu for Alice (though she's actually preparing him for something different, that didn't make me think much of her because it didn't work when her mother tried it and there're other obvious flaws).
>>
No. 21101 ID: 68ff50

>I actually mostly agree with you about your criticisms of the story, although the stupid protagonist problem is an anime protagonist problem more than a this game problem. Not that that makes it good.

Well, my opinion of that J-toon cliché is that this is endless hack-repetition of bad plotting and characterization that was insultingly stupid the first time. If you don't have sufficient originality to do better at least steal from a less inadequate source please!
These people need to steal more from Gogol, Bill Shakespeare and other higher end sources until they get a better grasp of what does and doesn't suck for characterization and plotting. If they absolutely have to do adventure-fantasy stuff they could at least steal from Norse sagas and the Robert E. Howard originals (never mind that poseur JRR Tolkien).
>>
No. 21108 ID: 72d49b

>>21101
I feel like perhaps you're being unfairly critical of this precisely because it's been done before and you expect it to be the same. Luka's denseness does get a bit over the top at times, especially early on, but I do think this is mostly believable and he grows substantially in this area as the plot goes on. But he's written better in this instance in the second chapter than he is in the first, so if that's the only part you've played it's fairly understandable that you'd assume it's a standard Japanese dunce MC.
>>
No. 21113 ID: 71d68e

>>21108
Yeah. In general, the characters could've been written better, but I still enjoyed MCQ's story for the largest part. It at least rises above the really low (or nonexistent) plot quality of most porn and reaches something like middling quality overall with a few good moments. In my mind, anyway.
>>
No. 21143 ID: 58a693

>>21101
Okay, so you just like an entirely different set of bad cliches. Shakespeare was formulaic mass-media at the time, and the characters are not exactly rich and deep (with a few exceptions.) Hell, an oblivious protagonist with an unreasonable idea that they won't let go of is exactly how Shakespeare would tell you to write a protagonist. The only difference is that Luka eventually overcomes his flaw instead of it eventually killing him.

And the Conan originals are like, pulp as fuck and basically composed entirely out of one dimensional characters. I mean, I personally love them, but I love them understanding that they're cheesy as hell.
>>
No. 21151 ID: fc2465

>>21143
The Conan originals are legit amazing okay. Thief Buddy has like every dimension.
"Why are you crying?"
"He is Conan, the Cimmerian, he won't cry, so I cry for him."
>>
No. 21159 ID: 68ff50

>>21143
Thank goodness someone in this thread is smart enough to know Shakespeare wasn't that much smarter than these people making J-toons.

Now grasp my stealth point: Shakespeare as a writer was still better than anything I've seen in J-toon land and its protectorate of J-videogaming. (At least arguable that it's better than anything in videogaming period, although to be fair I haven't played Portal and haven't found out whether the writing there is good or just popular.) Despite that it doesn't take that much brainpower to find the obvious, glaring flaws in Shakespeare's stuff. What that means is that it's entirely reasonable for someone to find that JRPG crap insultingly bad, as I do.
Yeah, I know, a lot of Norse saga and other mythology sources also have issues, and Conan stories were definitely cheesy shit written for the early 20th century version of a fanwank forum. Despite that they did do some things few other people got right. Point of stealing is to take what's good and abandon the rest. This is what Shakespeare himself did, this is what writers should do instead of copying the same plot, character and setting details over and over with minor variations. Learn to vary by stealing from different sources!

In the meanwhile I'm going to disbelieve people saying it got appreciably better in part 2 because there are so many people who want to argue that it had a worthwhile story in the first place.
>>
No. 21160 ID: 58a693

>>21159
I mean, I think what at least some people said is that some of your concerns were addressed in part two, and that it had a lot more plot than they expected.

I would never tell someone who had no interest in the porn to play the game for the story, but the game actually had a story and character development. It was better than the average anime garbage, elevating it to mediocre fantasy that is obviously from japan, which I think is way more than a lot of people expected from a porn game (most people expect 0 plot and character development from a porn game.)

I do not know why your friend told you to play this game, as it's obvious you really hate anime cliches and have no interest in the porn content, so basically there is no way you would be interested in the game. That being said, it's not a terrible game, and if the writers aren't the best writers, the story is still not awful. You can tell that the people working on the project were really trying to make the story interesting instead of it being complete window dressing.
>>
No. 21161 ID: 71d68e

>>21159
I've seen amazing "J-toons". They tended to be off the beaten path though. In other words, works that actually focused on good story and characterization over spewing out formulaic repetition. It's obvious you haven't really seen that much, but it can be difficult based on recommendations alone to separate out the popular tripe from the stuff that's well regarded because it's actually good.

As far as quality stuff goes, for an assortment of reasons there're generally more quality works to be found in media with lower production costs (i.e. comics and novels).

>>21160
I pretty much agree with this. I wouldn't particularly recommend it to someone not into it for the porn (where I might recommend, say, Katawa Shoujo, which does have an option to not show sex scenes). Hell, KS actually used its sex scenes for purposes other than pure titillation (for example, there're a few funny ones including one involving trying out anal sex and not liking it).
>>
No. 21168 ID: 049dfa

>>21159
(and others)

It is pretty fucking retarded to try to restrict this to having fuck-all to do with japan. Video games have shitty writing no matter where they are from if you're trying to judge the story like a novel or a play. In fact, a video game that WAS written like a good novel or play would actually end up shitty, because it wouldn't be taking advantage of the medium.
>>
No. 21172 ID: 68ff50

>>21160
I was asked by a friend, as a favour, to help them put into words how and why it was bad. They still owe me.

>>21168
I agree that videogames should not be written the same as a movie script, theatre play or ink-stamped brick of dead tree. Allow me to expand on that.
Videogames in general are all about offering choices to the player, and not a poorly animated TV show that you click to advance. For example: The single player story of Half-Life did okay in the medium despite mostly being written with a linear, unbranched story very similar to a movie or theatre script. This worked back in the 90s because the choice was in the combat, and in the exploration/movement aspects of the game, instead of in the story itself. They used the story in the gameplay challenges to help build the mood and world, present the G-Man mystery, show an interpretation of misguided military response, and otherwise present details to break up the FPS exploration/looting/action and provide hints about upcoming challenges. They had the story and the FPS play integrated in a series of setpieces which were combinations of both, with a story that was mostly static and action that could be handled in any number of different ways players wanted to, including things like using one set of foes against another and avoidance.

In contrast, there basically isn't much choice in Monster Girl Quest. To complete your record you lose against each monster however many times it takes to unlock all the censored porn content, and then win the incredibly flat, stale and boring menu-fight (which uses a particularly uninteresting version of JRPG turn based crap) to continue. When you lose there is a little guide that tells you what you have to do to win, plus it tells you if there's more than one rape scenario to view and how to get that. Thankfully, this eliminates having to guess which options to pick from their menu system to fill your record file or continue to the next monster encounter. This mercy turns it all into a boring chore with a foreseeable end instead of something Kafkaesque. Then you click through more [strikethrough]shit[/strikethrough] text that advances agonizingly slowly in a small window at the bottom to get to the next fetish set piece, but make sure to generate saves in the right places so that if/when you mess up something you can go back instead of starting from the beginning. Maybe this also has content you can only access if you never lose a fight and other more-hidden content like that, I wouldn't know or care. Generally, they've turned a gallery of censored Jtoon-porn into an easter egg hunt with a typical (terrible) JRPG story: I suppose that this might be a fun game to other people because there apparently are people who enjoy watching competitive golf. It does not make the most out of the opportunities that computers give us to allow emergent stories, interactivity, and interesting choice in general.

I'm sure this "game" does appeal to many people who would consume static Jtoons and Jtoon pornography, but that's flipping through comic books and image boards. This is less than a comic book in serious ways. For example, you can't easily turn to the page you want to like with a book. Attempting to make that happen involves save files and the player record files; manipulating those just to see three things you've been told to look at in the game is clunky at best compared to using a physical book or a PDF file. That might be justifiable if it really had gameplay, but I'd say that a glorified easter egg hunt through text filled to toilet-clogging with unbelievable shit does not justify that. The use of animation sucked and could crash the game if you didn't adjust for code written in Japan that throws a fit if it can't find Japanese character sets. That is understandable since it's written for a Japanese audience but the animation is limited to a couple silly effects which they could have skipped and lost nothing. The replayability is so bad that the game's menus have options for skipping through everything and skipping faster. This is bad and its creators know it is bad. I doubt this is the best that the "interactive novel" type of "game" has to offer but it would have sucked less as a PDF file without the animations. If they'd done that I could skip past parts I don't want to pay attention to more easily and my investigation of how bad it is could have only taken 2-10 minutes instead of... I don't want to remember.

Why bother with this shit? Because you really, really like the furry and monster rape porn and like Jtoons enough to put up with the standard Jtoon bullshit. Certainly not because anything about the package besides that is any good. If you liked it you can wear the label, "PERVERT!" with pride because you earned it. Yes, that label should be in all-caps, with the exclamation mark. Don't leave those details out, they're important.
>>
No. 21173 ID: 58a693

I think I was ready to agree with you until you labeled everyone who liked some specific type of porn as opposed to some other specific type of porn a "pervert" (in all caps, for some reason)

Also the save thing is also a translation issue, and is not present in the untranslated game.

I mean, fuck. If somebody played through this game for the porn and the porn alone, who gives a shit? They are no more or less perverted than anyone else fapping to anything else on the internet - they just like porn that is a lot harder to find. Also the voice acting wasn't bad.
>>
No. 21174 ID: 72d49b

>>21172
>the incredibly flat, stale and boring menu-fight (which uses a particularly uninteresting version of JRPG turn based crap)
I enjoy the fights. If you don't like JRPG menu fights, that's one thing, but how are MGQ fights boring within that paradigm? The ones in the first chapter do tend to be gimmicky, but even so the element of discerning tactics from "story" context is a fun one at least to me. Admittedly, I never went to complete the record (is that even a thing?) and avoided losing as much as possible, so that may be part of why I enjoyed it more.

>the game's menus have options for skipping through everything and skipping faster.
That's not really a MGQ thing, it's standard for VNs.

That said, I do agree with your assertion that a static comic format would have been fine for the sake of the story, but personally I think the gameplay is a substantial and worthwhile part of the experience, even if you don't care for it.
>>
No. 21175 ID: 71d68e

>>21172
Shrug. Like I said before, I wouldn't recommend it for anyone not into the subject matter of the porn. Also, I agree with >>21173 that it's not a big deal that someone's into that porn.

Visual novels offer a few things that paper books (or a pdf file) don't, but the implementation tends to be problematic in that it's hard to flip back to specific scenes unless you happened to place a save there. I've actually had issues with this when reviewing scenes to make sure my characterization of a particular character from a non-porn VN series was accurate (for fan stuff).

Where visual novels become more worthwhile is where they become more interactive (i.e. more game-like). For example, the works of Christine Love.

My preferred medium for porn tends to be comics or more fully interactive games, really.
>>
No. 21176 ID: 87d18a

>>21175
On a side note, does anyone else hate it when they run across a game focused around such explicit content that then needs BOTH HANDS to play?
Why would you do this, game designers
>>
No. 21177 ID: 1444d5

>>21172
>Videogames in general are all about offering choices to the player
An illusion of choice. The distinction is important. As long as your choice appears to have an impact (even if that impact is nonexistent) it will be infinitely more enjoyable than attempting to impose a story onto a pure sandbox game (where technical limitations make the limited selection of choices glaringly obvious).
>>
No. 21178 ID: 72d49b

>>21177
You should never "impose a story on a sandbox". That's missing the point of sandboxes. Story content should and must exist within the context of the sandbox, ideally arising procedurally based on the player's actions, though in practice nobody much does that besides Dwarf Fortress.
>>
No. 21179 ID: 4bdd79

>>21178
That's exactly what he just said.
>>
No. 21180 ID: 68ff50

>>21173
Oh, well, I'm not saying that being a pervert is illegal or anything. With this stuff it can't be so long as you're not living where somebody's calling the game itself kiddie-porn: There are no underage goblin-girls for you to follow into Chris Hansen's studio.
In this case I'm using pervert very technically to mean someone who has perverse sexual lust for something they can't have because it doesn't even exist. The monster/furry girls not existing part is why it's in allcaps. The fact that these are cartoons of things that don't exist instead of photorealism just adds to that, which is why there's an exclamation mark.

About Japanese cartoon voice acting: I've never liked it and often I've disliked or hated it. Someone tried showing me some fansubbed episodes of Cowboy Bebop for example, and while I didn't overly mind most of it the Ed voice was fucking painful.
I don't know exactly why I don't like any of it, but if I have to guess based on vague memories it's probably because they're obnoxiously hammy actors and actresses. It doesn't help that I've yet to come across a character in Jtoons that wasn't some ridiculous bad writing construct. I agree that this is more of an opinion thing than an objective, "This is unmistakably bad because," thing like the less than a videogame or comic book part.

>21174
I didn't say you're not allowed to like it, I am just saying that it's unquestionably bad. As in that it's trolling to say it isn't bad. That's all.

>21177
Well, the degree of choice has to be managed because too many choices about too many things leads to player paralysis when faced with an unfamiliar situation and too many options. We're all trained throughout life (to some degree) to avoid doing the wrong thing and when we don't have a short enough list to work with for guessing what the wrong thing is this gets complicated. If you're going with the illusion of choice as your concept then it is also important that this illusion never breaks down against reasonable player expectations, knowing that people are often not reasonable in their interpretation of reasonable expectations. For example: "What do you mean this dorm building doesn't have a condom vending machine in the lobby? It has to have a condom vending machine in the lobby!" and the game genre is horror survival with no time to actually make use of the contents of that machine. Real, sane people think like that, and they think even more strangely than that.
In order for your presentation of illusion of choice to be any good there generally ends up being some degree of real choice there, even if there's almost no choice in the question of where you end up, like in my example of the original Half-Life: In that game you either stopped/died and walked away from the game before you reached the end of the plot, or you faced the G-Man and his choice of alien gangbeats versus freezer-tube. That end-of-plot choice was a binary selection choice and it was the only choice in the plot at all I ever found: I could agree with the interpretation that there was an illusion of choice in the plot, and much of the action of that game, but it is just as true that there was a lot of actual choice in the gameplay: Did you speedrun, avoiding most of the loot and monsters? Did you make sure to explode every explosive? Did you use the crowbar as often as possible in order to fit the theme of Freeman and his crowbar against all the chaos? Did you cheat? Those are choices.
>>
No. 21181 ID: 72d49b

>>21180
>I am just saying that it's unquestionably bad.
Except that when you asserted it was bad, you were questioned. Thus this statement is demonstrably false.
>As in that it's trolling to say it isn't bad.
Do you even know what trolling is? It's not the same thing as having a different opinion.
>>
No. 21184 ID: 68ff50

>>21181
Your definition of "questionable" is deficient. According to your interpretation gravity would be questionable if I asked whether it really existed and tried to argue it doesn't. Gravity isn't questionable. Learn what questionable means to other people:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/questionable

Trolling in this case is a word to describe the act of trying to argue something demonstrably false in order to provoke reactions, especially entertaining ones. In general trolling is the act of pulling shit for lulz from making people upset or otherwise getting a reaction to what you did. A non-text example would be bringing a roast pig to a vegetarian pot-luck.
I'm pretty sure I know what trolling means.

Address the points, don't play semantic shell games.
>>
No. 21185 ID: 049dfa

>>21184

>don't play semantic shell games.

It's Cruxador.
>>
No. 21186 ID: 72d49b

>>21184
Specifically, your assertion was questioned right away by multiple people, thus it can clearly be said to be "affording reason for being doubted, questioned, or challenged".

>Trolling in this case is a word to describe the act of trying to argue something demonstrably false
The assertion that MGQ has a good story is not demonstrably false. Although you have provided solid evidence for why you feel it's false, you did not categorically prove that MGQ does not have a good story, and in fact doing so would be impossible since it's ultimately a subjective statement.
>in order to provoke reactions, especially entertaining ones. In general trolling is the act of pulling shit for lulz from making people upset or otherwise getting a reaction to what you did.
That's not what happened, though. People contesting your opinion because they disagree is not the same as people saying false things to enjoy your reaction to it.

>I'm pretty sure I know what trolling means.
You can provide a definition which agrees with common usage. Now actually use it in accordance with that definition and you'll be golden.

>Address the points, don't play semantic shell games.
I addressed the reason that your conclusion was wrong. I also addressed points which I felt were false independently of that.
>>
No. 21187 ID: 71d68e

I, for one, was not trolling. I still consider Monster Girl Quest at best a middling quality story with some good moments. But I definitely am not trolling about this. I'm being serious about this. Feel free to consider me pathetic or whatever else you want to think about me. I don't really care about your opinion of me when no matter what I say you will likely call me a troll just for disagreeing with you. You really aren't doing yourself any favors with that.

It looks like this has passed the point of productive discussion, given that you're apparently more interested in calling people trolls and declaring your own opinion so right that it's impossible for anyone to sincerely disagree with it than in holding an actual discussion. I'm out.
>>
No. 21189 ID: fc2465
 

Touch fluffy tail
>>
No. 21198 ID: e3350e

I was
>>/questdis/362077
Then people were
>>/questdis/362105

I really expected someone to get it but instead they compared "romance" in the two games (lol!)

So, here we go with explanation on why >I find CoC has a more serious story then MGQ
And for love of god note the "then" part. (I am definitely not claiming CoC is literary masterpiece)

The setting in CoC is way less retarded. The explanation is simple, reclusive sect of mages developed ever more advanced spells centered on lust. Developed the "corruption" and found a way to extract the soul from a highly corrupted individual to form magic crystals (spell reagent) and cause the individual to grow more powerful (corruption instead of soul, aka a demon). then conquered the world.
The only place where you need to suspend disbelief is in the existence of magic.

The setting in MGQ is full of holes. Semen is nutritious food (lol), no wait semen is needed by monsters to reproduce (uh...), no wait semen is used to feed on magic energy/lifeforce of victim (up to and including extracting soul). Its like, the common thread of all monsters is that they need human semen for SOMETHING. (Vore is sick and wrong but at least you can disable it... and it is actually plausible).

Then there is the plot and char in MGQ... alice herself points out how fucking dumb luka is being. But her own input is some idiotic Japanese pseudo intellectual philosophical musing. (the Japanese prove that 99% of people should never be allowed to wax philosophical; every damn anime or manga is full of retarded pseudo-intellectual philosophizing). And don't even get me started on luka no realizing who alice was (it was obvious 5 minutes into the game) and the fact his entire quest is to defeat his girlfriend; who is training him to defeat herself. And apparently "quest for coexistance" means "follow goddess of racial purity who demands death to all monster kind" and "beat up monsters left and right without ever investigating, considering they might be innocent, or attempting diplomacy"

MGQ is just an endless stream of monsters raping a shota hero (another issue with MGQ).
>>
No. 21199 ID: 3ce5b2
File 133711063895.jpg - (46.46KB , 500x374 , I\'mATrainSuckMyDick.jpg )
21199

I choose to believe that the plot of MGQ is all about trains and how great they are. That's my opinion and it is the only correct opinion and anyone who disagrees with me is trolling.

This thread is now about trains.
>>
No. 21200 ID: e3350e

>>21199
Trains should be banned on account of being indecent and pornographic. Have you ever seen those tunnels?
>>
No. 21201 ID: e3350e

>>21101
You win so fucking hard!
>>
No. 21202 ID: 1444d5

>>21198
>Semen is nutritious food (lol), no wait semen is needed by monsters to reproduce (uh...), no wait semen is used to feed on magic energy/lifeforce of victim (up to and including extracting soul). Its like, the common thread of all monsters is that they need human semen for SOMETHING.
Semen acting as some sort of source of vitality is no more or less silly than blood filling the same role.

Though come to think of it, blood-sucking monsters are pretty common but I can't think of any that purportedly feed on the other Humors. Bit of a gap in the market there.
>>
No. 21203 ID: e3350e

>>21202
Blood is extremely nutritious, semen even more so. The issue is that there is so very LITTLE of it.
An average adult human has 5 liters of blood.
Word on the web is that an average ejaculation is 5mL. WTO study from 1992 claims 2 mL or greater (according to the oft wrong wikipedia).
So lets say 5, and that total stored volume is 15mL...
That is a difference of 5000/15 = 333:1 extractable per person. Maybe vamps can eat semen just as well but don't have the time going around sucking off several hundred people a night.

Also, you kinda missed the point. The point was that there are many different reasons why monster girls want semen in MGQ... they all want semen, they just can't decide why to appeal to as many fetishes as possible. That is inconsistent.
>>
No. 21204 ID: 72d49b

>>21198
>And for love of god note the "then"
I note that it should have been "than". Is that what you were going for?

>The setting in MGQ is full of holes [because different monsters are different]
That is not full of holes. It's also by and large not true. The only ones even implied to need it are succubi, the rest all need it for reproduction, having no males of their own, and that's all.
The CoC setting has holes because plot elements disagree with each other. That's what actual plot holes are. Luckily, nobody notices (unless you're TheDarkMaster) because nobody cares.

>Then there is the plot and char in MGQ... alice herself points out how fucking dumb luka is being.
Compared to the PC in CoC, who is defined as a wise sage, that being the only valid character type.
The rest of that paragraph is intentional plot complications which are dealt with by the end of the second chapter.
>>
No. 21206 ID: dd9039

>I note that it should have been "than". Is that what you were going for?
I was going a "just because he is saying MGQ is more retarded doesn't mean CoC isn't retarded too.

its a race to the bottom.
>>
No. 21209 ID: 1444d5

>>21203
>nutrition
Really.
>Also, you kinda missed the point. The point was that there are many different reasons why monster girls want semen in MGQ... they all want semen, they just can't decide why to appeal to as many fetishes as possible. That is inconsistent.
You missed my point. Magical Bullshit is cited for reasons why Vampires want blood (hell, different types of vampire throughout mythology need blood for different reasons), along with Cenobites, Jiangshi, Upir, Strigoi, Vetala, Adze, Lamia, etc. If there's no consistency why Mythical Creature X and Y want blood, why should the same standard exist for any other arbitrary bodily fluid?
>>
No. 21212 ID: 3734f6

>>21209
Those are in different works though.
If a book had vampires who don't drink blood but extract it with tools to use it for casting spells, and vampires that only drink blood to steal your soul, and vampires that drink blood for the nutritional value, and others who don't need it but just find it delicious, etc... well I would call bullshit on that book for lack of internal consistency too.
>>
No. 21213 ID: 1444d5

>>21212
You're deliberately ignoring the point now. Blood has absolutely no basis for being an effective source of nutrition for anything larger than a teeny tiny bat (you just don;t get that much energy from it). It's use in fiction is basically unrelated to any sort of nutritional value it may have. Use of it by a creature is symbolic rather than literal, being a stand-in for a creatures 'life-force' or whathaveyou. There's no reason other bodily fluids can't stand in in the same way.

And to provide a direct counter-example: the Dresden Files 'red court' vampires feed directly on blood. Blood can also be used to create a magical link to it's owner by mages etc (not through consumption). Two different uses of blood in the same work, and no internal inconsistencies.
>>
No. 21214 ID: f7ae22

Okay look you guys have clearly not understood the importance of Touch Fluffy Tail so here is more evidence for the importance of it.
http://petitpanda.tumblr.com/post/21872066343/you-have-no-idea-how-long-i-have-waited-to-use-the
>>
No. 21221 ID: 3734f6

http://byedr.com/medicine/1685-medicine-4.html
20 cc of blood contain 34 calories of nutrients.
20 cc = 0.02 liter.
1L of blood contains 1700 calories.

http://www.freedieting.com/calories/milk.htm
Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat 146 calories/cup.
1 liter = 4.22675284 US cups
617.10591464 Calories per 1L of whole 3.25% fat milk.

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-olive-oil-i4053?size_grams=216.0
1909 per cup... means 1L of Olive Oil has 8068.87117156 calories.

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-chick-fil-cookies-cream-milkshake-i110319
Chick-FilA Cookies and cream milkshake is 790 calories per 18oz.
1 liter = 33.8140227 US fluid ounces
1484.0598851666666666666666666667 Calories per 1L

So to sum it up.
1L Whole milk 3.25% = 617 C
1L Cookies & Cream Milkshake = 1484 C/
1L Blood = 1700 C
1L Olive Oil = 8069 C

As I said, blood is very nutritious.
>>
No. 21222 ID: 3734f6

>>21221
Also worth mentioning is that people the world over eat blood (either drinking it raw, mixing it in drinks, ex camel milk + blood + alcohol, or cooking with it like blood sausage)
Except for jews, they are forbidden from eating blood and as such salt the meat and drain it of all blood before eating.

And also use it for fertilizer... something that has been known to be good for for a long long time. What with the bible describe how massacres fertilize the land.
>>
No. 21223 ID: 3734f6

>>21221
And recall an average adult human has 5L of blood so that's 8500 calories worth of blood.
>>
No. 21224 ID: 68ff50

But is that 1.7 kC/L energy before or after cooking? And does anybody have practical tips for how to reduce my grocery bill with cannibalism?
>>
No. 21226 ID: 1444d5

>>21223
>8500 calories worth of blood
Those sources looked rather suspect to me , so I went hunting for others.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1999-08/935553476.Me.r.html
Provides a reasoned value of 680kcal/l, and blood donation literature cite an unsubstantiated figure of 600kcal/donation (or 1200kcal/l). This gives a total of between of between 3400kcal and 6000kcal (I'd err on the low side, as the blood donation figure is for replenishment of drawn blood).

And that's the chemical caloric content. Remember that the human digestive system cannot break down everything, so the caloric content actually absorbed by the body from drinking blood neat will be significantly lower. Most of the energy content of blood is in the red blood cells, specifically the Iron in the Haemoglobin. Unless you need a lot of Iron in your diet, Blood is going to offer a poor source of nutrition.

>blood sausage/etc
Blood is used as a flavouring and thickening agent rather than as a source of energy.
>>
No. 21238 ID: 3734f6

>>21226
1. Some guy on a forum is a better source?
2. I looked around, there is quite a variety on claimed amounts and this is about as low as any gets.
3. This figure is still higher then 3.25% fat milk.
>>
No. 21241 ID: 1444d5

>>21238
>forum
Usenet. And compare a worked example with (http://byedr.com/medicine/1685-medicine-4.html), which appears to be one of those websites domain-squatters put up out of almost randomly scraped content jammed together.

>This figure is still higher then 3.25% fat milk.
Which can be digested easily. Blood cannot, and also happens to be emetic and slightly laxative to boot.

Reductio ad absurdum: Hydrogen Peroxide contains ~23kCal/litre. Consuming a litre of Hydrogen Peroxide would not provide the body with 23kCal of energy.
>>
No. 21243 ID: 3734f6

>Which can be digested easily. Blood cannot
Milk requires that you have a neonatal mutation to produce Lactase else the lactose is going to only be digested by intestinal fauna.
>and also happens to be emetic and slightly laxative to boot.
Milk contains natural laxative compounds to encourage the operation of underdeveloped intestines in babies.
>>
No. 21244 ID: 3734f6

Ok so... here is a new topic. What are the dumbest sexual fetishes...
Note that I am not asking the most perverted, sick, deviant, or disgusting... I am asking for dumbest.

The 4 I can think of off the top of my head are:
1. Foot fetish
2. Sex with cars
3. mpreg
4. cunt-boys. (which is somehow even stupider then dick-girls)
>>
No. 21245 ID: 3734f6

>>21244
>cunt-boys
To clarify, those are for some reason "boys" who have a vagina and NO penis/balls. so they are essentially women with a mannish appearance and personality that are arbitrarily called "cunt-boys" by the retarded artists.

Also,
5. Infantilism - Adults wearing diapers
>>
No. 21246 ID: 132b99

indeed. i cannot for the life of me, understand cunt-boy. dick girl at least has all regular girl parts with an extra one stuck on. so while odd it makes a SORT of sense.
>>
No. 21249 ID: 049dfa

Cuntboys are there for people who pretend to be gay to fit in with the furry community but actually aren't into dudes. Congratulations, fetish explained.

Soft Vore and Inflation are probably the stupidest fetishes.
>>
No. 21251 ID: b9e291

>>21246

Dick Girl generally means dick, no vagina. Otherwise you just call it a Herm. So biologically dickgirls are male but look female, and cuntboys are female and look male. It's all really quite sensible if you put some thought into it.
>>
No. 21253 ID: 3734f6

>>21251
Except you are wrong, dickgirls are usually depicted as hermaphrodites.
And What you described is a pre-op trannie on hormone therapy... which is only RARELY referred to as a dick girl by some pornographers.
Also, it doesn't make sense at all because a female body with a dick is implausible (barring hormone therapy), but a girl with a flat chest and mannish features isn't.
Now, if cuntboys had BEARDS then it would be implausible barring hormonal imbalance/therapy on a pre-op F2M trannie. But I don't think I have ever, ever come across a cuntboy with a beard.
>>
No. 21254 ID: 72d49b

>>21251
>Dick Girl generally means dick, no vagina.
I don't think I've ever seen it used to refer to someone without a vagina.
>Otherwise you just call it a Herm.
That's what furries call it. That's far from the only term.

>>21245
>>21249
>>21253
I can't really see a straight male ever being attracted to Buck Angel. Also he has a beard.
>>
No. 21255 ID: b9e291

>>21254

Roxikat. Don't make me link to it. Please. And Hermaphrodite is a medically approved official term.
>>
No. 21266 ID: 72d49b

>>21255
>And Hermaphrodite is a medically approved official term.
Yes, but "Herm" is not. The term "hermaphrodite" is in reference to the dual-gendered child of Hermes and Aphrodite, Hermaphroditus. Shortening it just to "herm" is akin to changing the reference to just Hermes, and is both nonsensical and simply not done in the medical community. It's a furry thing.
>>
No. 21267 ID: eea689

>>21249
Invalid! I'll happily schtup men, women, dickgirls, cuntboys and full hermaphrodites. Bisexuals like cuntboys too.
>>
No. 21269 ID: 71d68e

>>21245
"Dickgirls" and "cuntboys" are pretty much pornish names for people that actually exist in the real world (as a result of hormone therapy). It's upsetting if you call them not men just because they have vaginas when they've worked hard to get as masculine bodies as they can.

Of course, the fetish doesn't necessarily have that much relationship to those real people, just like how yaoi doesn't generally have that much relationship to real gay men. Still, it's something to keep in mind. In general, it's best to call such people by their apparent gender rather than by their genitals. Unless they specify otherwise.

But, anyway, I'm not going to name the stupidest kinks (I don't like kink-shaming). Instead, I'll name some of the kinks I find particularly goofy, and I mean that in a genuinely affectionate way. I actually like that people're into all sorts of weird things. Essentially, those are kinks that make me giggle a little, but I find it cool that people're into them.

1. Balloons.
2. Wool. Yes, there're people who fetishize it. They find the texture really sexy and wear full body wool suits on their bare bodies.
3. Unbirthing. Since I'm anon, I might as well say I share this one, and I still find it super goofy.
4. Farting. I especially don't get this one, but everyone has their own ideas of sexy, no worries.
5. Mpreg. I don't share this one, but it falls into the same "anatomically ridiculous and goofy" category as unbirthing.

In general, I consider stuff like that harmless. There's no real point hating on it when there're far better things to hate on (like stuff that actually hurts people). Of course, publicly inappropriate behavior is still publicly inappropriate behavior.
>>
No. 21270 ID: 953355

>>21269

Last week I learned about the piñata fetish. That one is fun.
>>
No. 21271 ID: b9e291

>>21266

Man, what is it with you and furries? Also people have been shortening words back to being nonsensical since time immem.
>>
No. 21272 ID: b9e291

>>21140

Katia has heretofore rejected such suggestions on the grounds that she already did that (conveniently before the story started) and it wasn't working out for her. But you know what? She could go back to being a slutty boozing pole dancing bitch whore and she would *still be adorable*. There's nothing you can do to make her a horrible person because she simply isn't.

Don't worry though. British comedy sucks and was never funny, so avoiding making unlikable main characters won't do Kazerad one bit of harm.
>>
No. 21273 ID: 049dfa

>>21267

an exception does not invalidate a generalization.

Especially when that 'exception' is actually just someone desperate for sexual contact and putting forth a persona based entirely around hypersexual urges.
>>
No. 21275 ID: 71d68e

>>21273
Or you're just projecting your own jaundiced views and narrow experiences. People like this really do exist in the real world, you know.
>>
No. 21277 ID: 049dfa

>>21275

Judging a book by its cover is actually the most natural and logical thing in the world.

It's not like covers magically and accidentally appear. The cover is specifically chosen to represent the book.
>>
No. 21278 ID: 71d68e

>>21277
That analogy proves nothing at all. Hell, even if I wanted to accept an analogy as an actual argument, it's an analogy easily broken (plenty of books with misleading covers and other marketing misfires).

Not to mention that there's plenty of experimental evidence of bias causing people to severely misjudge things. In this case, you don't have any proof that they're the kind of person you're arguing them to be. It's also true that there isn't any proof in this context that they aren't that kind of person. But I know that people with all stripes of sexual interests genuinely do exist, so your argument that he must be some sort of fake... blah. Bisexuals already get plenty of crap like that. I've seen a fair number of rants on the subject.

I know for a fact that pre-op transsexuals of both stripes do get laid in RL. Thus, there are people who'll dig them just fine.

It sounds you like're only judging from limited exposure to, say, the online furry fandom rather than from actual experience with transsexual people and other such people. Thus why I called you narrow in experiences.
>>
No. 21280 ID: 197830

>>21273
My "persona" has my sexual tendencies as a small but nontrivial part of it. A statement was made that "cuntboy" as a sexual preference existed for people who were pretending to be gay. I exist as a counterargument to that.

It is perfectly natural for some people to find breasts, penises, vaginas, and multiple combinations thereof sexy. Doing so does not make me "hypersexual" in the least, any more than, say, liking both blondes and brunettes.
>>
No. 21281 ID: f7ae22

wow u guys are kind of fucklekin faggoters u know that right☃
sometimes a chick has a dick it's just a thing that happens okay it's not exciting
balloons are exciting
>>
No. 21282 ID: f7ae22

also the copy of The Last Unicorn i have has a pretty sweet cover it has this sweet ass unicorn with the lion tail and the fluffy fetlocks and slender legs and tiny goat feetsies it is like daaaaaaamn
>>
No. 21283 ID: f7ae22
File 133797374124.jpg - (226.75KB , 768x1024 , The-Last-Unicorn.jpg )
21283

basically what i am saying is the cover is as sexy as the book is (the book is sexy)
like this book will probably make you attracted to unicorns in an inappropriate manner also it's a good book
>>
No. 21284 ID: 31015f

>>21283

That is a sweet ass cover.
>>
No. 21285 ID: 4183c9

>>21284
You are dumb. There's hardly any ass in that cover and it looks pretty salty too.
>>
No. 21286 ID: 049dfa

>>21278

>it's an analogy easily broken (plenty of books with misleading covers and other marketing misfires).

And that's because the people who decided on the covers made a mistake. If someone put out a book that was exactly like The Very Hungry Caterpillar, except halfway through it started sucking down cocks, they would catch all kinds of shit. This is because they marketed the book as a children's book, but it is actually not. If you market yourself as a desperate hypersexual goober (basically jailhouse gay except 'jailhouse anything' instead) that's what people are going to think you are. And it isn't there fault, because judging you by the cover you present to them is reasonable.

>In this case, you don't have any proof that they're the kind of person you're arguing them to be.

'If it's cute, has thumbs (or analogous prehensile organs, or meets some other intellience-denoting standard) and is capable of orgasm or other sexual pleasure, I'll go for it!'

>so your argument that he must be some sort of fake... blah.

It's not that he MUST be some kind of fake. It's that he portrays himself as a desperate nerd who would fuck anything with a pulse and 'some ... intelligence-denoting standard.' I will judge him for that and you can't stop me.

>I know for a fact that pre-op transsexuals of both stripes do get laid in RL. Thus, there are people who'll dig them just fine.

Which has fuck-all to do with anything ever.

>It sounds you like're only judging from limited exposure to, say, the online furry fandom rather than from actual experience with transsexual people and other such people.

lol

No, you see, I am judging by the people who post and spam 'cuntboy' images. You are trying to spread that out to other completely unrelated things.

>Thus why I called you narrow in experiences.

You are a fucking idiot and the conclusions that you are leaping to while constructing viewpoints for me to be a proponent of are pretty goddamn hilarious.

>I exist as a counterargument to that.

1: An exception does not invalidate a generalization
2: It is entirely possible for something to be made for one group and have some outliers from a different group enjoy it as well.

>It is perfectly natural for some people to find breasts, penises, vaginas, and multiple combinations thereof sexy.

Sure it is. I never said otherwise.

>Doing so does not make me "hypersexual" in the least, any more than, say, liking both blondes and brunettes.

'If it's cute, has thumbs (or analogous prehensile organs, or meets some other intellience-denoting standard) and is capable of orgasm or other sexual pleasure, I'll go for it!'

>>21283

5000 boners
>>
No. 21287 ID: 049dfa

>>21286

haha wow I totally wrote 'there' fault. What the fuck.
>>
No. 21288 ID: eea689

>>21286
I was trying to cover all bases there so I wouldn't leave out, say, an intelligent, friendly but tentacular alien. Or a species that relied strictly on telekinesis to interact with their environment due to lack of manipulatory limbs. Or something like that. As long as they're aesthetically attractive, intelligent and consenting, I don't see anything odd about being interested.

You got a problem with xenophilia?
>>
No. 21289 ID: 71d68e

>>21286
I apologize for misinterpreting what you were saying.

I still feel people will have their own individual reasons for enjoying any particular kink. And the trouble with anecdotal evidence is that it isn't necessarily representative (for example, there's always the silent majority and so on).

And let's say that, say, 1 out of 4 (or whatever, this is a purely arbitrary example) post something really stupid. That 1 out of 4 will tend to stick out more than the 3 out of 4. It's easy to judge based on things like that.

And if someone's into 'cuntboys' but not into guys with dicks... So what? It's like people being into women with dicks but not men with dicks. Or into things in fantasy that they wouldn't be into in reality. In the end, sexual orientations're highly individualized for every person. It's easier to say "I'm straight/gay/bisexual" than to give out a full questionnaire of your tastes (like whether you'll dig a feminine enough guy/masculine enough woman or not).

It's true that there does tend to be a lot of social awkwardness going around on the Internet, though.
>>
No. 21290 ID: 049dfa

>>21288

The thread is 'are you gay, straight, or bi?' and you responded with 'I will fuck literally anything that might be able to comprehend sex.'
>>
No. 21291 ID: 71d68e

>>21289
The really short version of that: I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. But I'm not the only one jumping to conclusions.
>>
No. 21292 ID: e3f578

Ugh
I can't believe I'm participating in this argument
But Cuntboys have always just seem to be the term for flattest of flat chicks.
Like seriously. Give that chick even slightly bigger breasts and you instantly change it to a term Muscle Girl(or even just regular girl, but your discussing it in the context that the "Cuntboy" would have muscles like a man would even though that's total bullshit with that context since ladies can rock muscles too and the distinction seems inherently useless).

Really, Cuntboy is just a category of how people like their chicks in their porn, at least from my persepective. You know, because Lesbians can also have a fetish for the flattest of flat chicks. If people label something a cuntboy in your terms and seem like an actual kink regarding the shift of sexes, it'd have to be like some cheap edit of some gay porn into straight porn by the simple switching of genitalia and nothing else. Because that was an actual dude getting boned by a foreign boner there at first, and some schmuck would thought it would be hot if that dude getting boned didn't have a boner of his own with his bells flappin' everywhere, as if the audience looking at that picture was specifically asking for that.

Which I suppose it could. Some other schmucks probably thought "Oh man, that dude would look just as fine with an inny instead of an outty"
>>
No. 21293 ID: 049dfa

>Really, Cuntboy is just a category of how people like their chicks in their porn, at least from my persepective.

Your perspective is wrong.

I mean, that's basically what they ARE 99% of the time, but that is the entire point of the argument.
>>
No. 21295 ID: e3f578

>>21292
>>21293
>Really, Cuntboy is just a category of how people like their chicks in their porn, at least from my persepective.
Oh yikes, I was trying to restate my perspective main point and failed. Or maybe I didn't and changes nothing.

If I had said "Really, Cuntboy is just a category of how people like their chicks in their porn, really, really fucking flat, at least from my persepective." I mean it's just a few words, and it might get the same response. So, uhhh, does it?

I was trying to simplify it. It's not gay at all to like a cuntboy, though you said that so I guess I might be reiterating that, sorta, you said that it was fake gay... which is straight? Or no... wait. Fuck, okay, okay, I just need to think about this some more, for some reason.Actually I think I was trying to make some joke of this and make people get a chuckle. Or...

Wait, wait, I think I remembered what I originally meant! Cuntboy is a mere classification of chick. It's not actually a fetish, just a description! Or is that a useless distinction, as people have a redhead fetish, and that can also be used as a description as a classification of redhead chicks... so...

Maybe I was trying to ask what people really meant when they classified that fetish as an annoyance. Flat as a board chicks, or basically photoshopped switched crotches? Yeah, I think that's what I came in here for. That specific distinction of the argument. So, is it flat muscle girls, or switched out genitalia?
>>
No. 21296 ID: 049dfa

>Wait, wait, I think I remembered what I originally meant! Cuntboy is a mere classification of chick. It's not actually a fetish, just a description!

But it's NOT. That quite simply is not how it's used. 'Cuntboys' are supposed to explicitly be boys that have vaginas, but they are always just drawn as flat-chested chicks and latched onto by people who want to run with the gays but actually aren't into dudes. They will even get just as angry if you point out that they're fapping to a chick as people get if you tease them about how they like dicks if they like dickgirls.

It is fucking stupid.

Especially because Popcorn Factories are obviously the best.
>>
No. 21297 ID: e3f578

Yeah that's pretty dumb.
Like "Dude, you got a boner from it.
Who gives a fuck about the details.
It gave you a boner.
Don't ruin boner magic by making into a big fat faction thing. Just appreciate your boner, man. There are no factions, just the porn and your boner.
Ain't no shame however you get your boner unless your into some sick ass shit. Then, there's total shame. But nope, dude, come on. A chick just gave you a boner. Accept thine boner or tuck it away. Don't shout about it, don't defend it. Accept thy boner."
>>
No. 21298 ID: 71d68e

Depends on how you teased them about it. If you used a similar tone as you've used here, perhaps you shouldn't be surprised by people reacting poorly. That has nothing to do with the merits of what you're saying, it's just that tone will affect how people react.

I think in the end, this points more to sexual traits being more ambiguous than people often give them credit for. Of course, art style'd be also an issue and that sounds like a large part of what you're complaining about. One can draw someone fairly masculine and give them a vagina, but that's more masculine than some of the cuntboy art I've seen.

I won't comment on the social trends you're talking about (apparently some stuff on FurAffinity or similar sites or whatever). I haven't really been paying much attention to that.

In the end, I'd lean toward just letting people call it what they want. A lot of gender is pretty much in the head. If they want to fantasize that it's boys with cunts, well, it's their kink.
>>
No. 21301 ID: a7c787

>>21290

Only if it's cute and capable of consent. (Pretty octopus-like alien with a great personality? Sweet! Actual octopus? Ew.)

Anything more than that would be creepy.
>>
No. 21302 ID: e3f578

>>21301
Nothing like that's ever gonna happen or show up, let alone one finding you and it being a xenophobe and super into humans enough to sleep with the next one it sees.
It's practically useless to even mention it, even in good company in good humor, as it's not really a funny joke.
>>
No. 21303 ID: a7c787

>>21302
Given that this stemmed from an argument over people being attracted to cuntboys in art on the Internet, I don't see how that's relevant.

And hey, you never know.
>>
No. 21304 ID: e3f578

>>21303
It's really about dumb attractions, not just getting a boner for muscly flat chicks.
>>
No. 21306 ID: 1dbccd

>>21272
>Hello my name is terrible opinions and I'll be giving out terrible opinions today
Nice to meet you!
>>
No. 21313 ID: b9e291

>>21306

That British Comedy sucks is Scientific Fact. There's no... evidence to support that or anything, but it is still Scientific Fact.
>>
No. 21314 ID: e3f578

Ehh, it's not like Dark Comedy is a purely English traditional story telling method.

And Dark Comedy can be pulled off well.
>>
No. 21315 ID: b9e291

>>21314

Ah, but does Dark Comedy display rabid British nationalism?
>>
No. 21317 ID: 5215e9

http://mylittledungeon.tumblr.com/

Starting your quest with erotic themes: unethical or fine?

I'd say it's a little cheap, seeing as how it's the least effort-demanding way to generate interest. It also makes the quest author look like they're luring the reader into what would otherwise be a mediocre quest (not talking about the aforementioned tumbler, it at least has art to boast).
>>
No. 21323 ID: c891d3

>>21317
I wouldn't call it "unethical." It generates interest from some camps but will also cause other camps to ignore the quest on principle, so mixed results really.

Been tried here before too!
>>
No. 21325 ID: c891d3

>>21323
What I am markedly less cool with is:
>A donations gives your suggestion a much better chance to be selected
Dunno if anyone's tried that one before but that makes me even less interested in this than I already was.
>>
No. 21327 ID: fed066

>>21325

>a donation gives your suggestion a much better chance to be selected

Ah, the democratic method.
>>
No. 21330 ID: 13276b

>>21317
I would not call it "unethical" if it's apparent for the reader what they're getting into. Of course it is an easy way to generate interest - but it is completely different kind of "interest" than you would have for, say, a really well drawn opening-image. Or a really interesting introduction.

The "porny" quest would make people crave for another saucy image and let them have a lower expectation for an actual plot. Generally. In my opinion.

The subject matter determines the audience, so to speak.
>>
No. 21332 ID: 156448

Something on my mind.

Let's say you do a quest, and at some point there's a big tournament going down. Now a couple of these characters are yours, the main character and their rival or something. They win their way to the top until the final battle where it's all amazing story and plot and etc.

So you have those characters, but then you have another 14 (or however many in your various brackets) guys who are not essential to the plot. Sure you could draw a bunch of randomly thrown together attributes, BUT why not throw in a few characters from pop culture? They might just be there for visual gags, or maybe you'll give them a few lines, but ultimately they would have no bearing on the plot. Basically, it would be like a Family Guy joke.

What I am asking you, fellow perusers of /quest/, is how offensive would you personally find the following things as inclusion of unimportant background characters:

1) characters from TV shows
2) characters webcomics
3) characters from other quests (not done by the OP)
4) Ersatz versions of above 3 things. Or palette swaps. Like a yellow haired/red suited clown called "Roland McDoland" for example.

Now with 1 and 2, you would assume that there has been no permission asked from the owners of those characters. With 3, since we all exist together you'd expect some common courtesy of asking, assuming one was using a character in full. Do you think permission would need to be asked if it is someone else's design with a moustache and different name? What if the character in question is from an old, old quest and the owner has not been seen in months or years, and nobody has anyway to contact them?

One last area of questioning: Outsourcing character designs like this - and I stress their lack of importance over a storyline here - do you think this cheapens a quest? Is it lazy? Does it reflect poorly on the quest and/or on the author? Is it a bad thing?

(And let's assume we're being nice people here and not taking characters from quests or authors we don't like and having them be raped by a horse or something in the background. That would just be poor manners.)
>>
No. 21333 ID: 4183c9

>>21332
>Do you think permission would need to be asked if it is someone else's design with a moustache and different name?
If it's an obvious parody, then I don't see why you'd need to jump through an internet-community's equivalent of bureaucratic hoops. With parody you could also just put in the characters straight, but with a "convincing disguise" such as over fake mustache and obviously fake name. Parody and homage. Just don't have them appear for too long, only in a couple of shots, mainly in the background (although this includes close-ups of the background).

>Outsourcing character designs like this - and I stress their lack of importance over a storyline here - do you think this cheapens a quest? Is it lazy? Does it reflect poorly on the quest and/or on the author? Is it a bad thing?
Yes, ja und oui.
If you need faces and can't make-do with simple, symbolic silhouettes, then use celebrities and references. If you limit its usage, you can also derive humor from obvious, deliberately crude cut'n'paste stuff. One "trick" also is to use recurring background characters - done right, it can be interesting, amusing or even downright funny.
And if you are interested in drawing in any real capacity, YOU NEED THE FUCKING PRACTICE, YOU WORTHLESS MAGGOT. NOW GIVE ME TWENTY.

NO, YOU USELESS APE, GET OFF THE GROUND. I DIDN'T MEAN PUSH-UPS, I MEANT CHARACTER DESIGNS.
>>
No. 21334 ID: 0006f5

>>21332
>Do you think permission would need to be asked if it is someone else's design with a moustache and different name?
I regularly include characters that are references to pop culture, tgchan memes, people, characters in other quests, it goes on. Some of these are not even references and look basically exactly like the source material. Nobody notices, and I don't treat them as if they -are- the source material, not even close. I don't think I've had to worry about offending anyone even though the possibility did cross my mind.

>What if the character in question is from an old, old quest and the owner has not been seen in months or years, and nobody has anyway to contact them?
Free shrugs. It's probably distasteful if you're doing it in spite at any rate. This is provided that one would stop if asked to by the intellectual owner, and it is taking advantage of the exact fact they are not in contact.

>Outsourcing character designs like this - and I stress their lack of importance over a storyline here - do you think this cheapens a quest? Is it lazy? Does it reflect poorly on the quest and/or on the author? Is it a bad thing?
No.

What does cheapen a quest is not stepping back and taking a look at what one has assembled is doing what it needs to and being what you want it to be. I would say it has cheapened my work in existing as a challenge that discouraged me from establishing characters with good silhouettes, color schemes, are consistent within context, etc. I can connect a failure in each one of these to my decision is 'taking lightly' what I settle for this imagined integrity of originality.

I did twenty push-ups out of integrity anyway.
>>
No. 21335 ID: 4183c9

>>21334
Doing two plus zero push-ups doesn't count as 20!
>>
No. 21336 ID: 197830

According to the
>>
No. 21337 ID: 197830

>>21335
According to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, by choosing to do or not do a pushup, I both did and did not do a pushup in infinite realities.

The fact that this does not happen to be one of those realities is a mere fluke of probability.
>>
No. 21338 ID: 4183c9

>>21337
ONLY PROPER PUSH-UPS COUNT. QUANTUM PUSH-UPS ARE NOT PROPER.
>>
No. 21340 ID: e53390

>>21338
done 30 because I'm a fanatic
>>
No. 21383 ID: d79ace

one time at starbucks on my cup they wrote “fuck i can’t remember your name"
>>
No. 21385 ID: 72d49b

>>21340
I usually do three sets of 25 when I get the urge.
>>
No. 21426 ID: c3a61c

I>>21337
Your moms face is a password to china!
>>
No. 21428 ID: f387a1

Let's discuss acting/playing a role/performance on a quest, because I'm an obnoxious motherfucker.
>>
No. 21431 ID: 71d68e

>>21428
The problems with stuff like that, from the perspective of someone who does a ton of freeform roleplaying:

1. A lot of people don't do a good job of it. A lot of the assumed personas I've seen were fairly shallow and annoying.

2. There's the issue of people working together with different expectations. That kind of thing tends to work better with other people working to stay in a given character, which isn't the default assumption of most suggestors. It's just annoying when unasked for, like roleplaying while buying food or something.

3. Such roleplaying works best with a well defined persona, and the attention's usually more on the quest protagonist. Your character will have more limited opportunity to shine than in a venue where they can actually do things and form relationships in-world, rather than just being a disembodied voice making suggestions.

In general, I think it works best in quests deliberately designed for it. As for me, I'll be mainly doing my roleplaying in venues that will allow individual roleplayers' characters to shine more, such as online roleplaying forums, chats devoted to roleplaying, and the like. Stuff with a setting you can have your character do stuff in and other characters that can interact with your character and complicate things for them.

That said, an excessive level of meta often annoys me. I tend to prefer to mostly play from what the character would know, even when working within settings I already know. In things like the Minecraft quests, it's more tolerable. But the metaness was annoying me in the Corruption of Champion and Exalted based quests. But that's a separate discussion, really.
>>
No. 21434 ID: f387a1

>>21431
Wow. Thanks. That helped me a lot. Maybe I'm just a little annoyed with the excessive level of meta, like you said.
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No. 21446 ID: 0f422a

>>21385

I can only do one set of 25 because I am physically feeble. DAMN YOU!
>>
No. 21451 ID: f387a1

Oh, boy! I love this thread! Why you girls don't make more of these?

Well, I was skimming through the thread about Prequel. I wonder if there are other recommendations, but that's not the point here. There I found a discussion about suggestions and authors, and some citations of the relationship between players and DM.

I always thought the audience was as important as the author. Of course, the author can control many things and may try to induce some reaction, especially in mediums where the viewer has little control, such as movies. However, the experience is only complete when what the author did is interpreted by someone, right? Also, I have mixed feelings about quests like those we have here. Most times I wind up being a jerk or an idiot, but I just want to make things more fun and interesting for those who create the scenarios, characters and stories. Sometimes I think that my interpretation of things is a bit interesting, and I really like to see other interpretations that emerged from the same thing.

So yeah, what I want with this. We can really say that the author/DM/whatever is more "important" than the other parts?
>>
No. 21452 ID: 4183c9

>>21451
Without the author/DM, there is NOTHING.
>>
No. 21456 ID: f387a1

>>21452
Oh! Thanks! I thought I hadn't made much sense! Yeah, but before being an author/director/DM he and/or she is a viewer/spectator/reader/player. Also, what is the meaning of a work that will not be consumed? I'm talking about things like experiences and expectations. What the author saw as a reader, what the author wants to show to other readers.
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No. 21458 ID: 4183c9

>>21456
Without the author there is nothing. Even if nobody knows of it, as long as the author has done it, the work will be there. Of course you need the audience if you're out to gain anything (money, in a commercial context, or just the views/comments/interaction in a free-contribution context), but if there's no author and no work, there is no audience and the individuals that would potentially become the audience have no value in the context of this topic.

As for where the author draws inspiration, the word is "irrelevant". Interesting, perhaps, but irrelevant. Everyone is inspired by what they are inspired by, it's only how they implement what they've taken from it that matters. What the author wants to show is also irrelevant, only the implementation matters.

The audience isn't there to do a favor to the author. What either party "gains" from any work is a case-by-case thing and the work's "worth" is defined by every individual involved, only for their own person.

Let's take Reaver for example. If he never authored any quest, there would be nothing and nobody would even know what could have been.
He did (does/will?), however, author several quests. Now, with the hiatus there has also been nothing again, regardless of the audience. Fanart or "what happened to [X]"-comments do not count. The quests are marked with Reaver's name and even if some other author had continued REDROM (with or without permission), there would still be a difference between "Reaver's REDROM" and "[not Reaver]'s REDROM". Maybe nobody would talk about it, but it would still be there.
What is Reaver as an author worth to Reaver and any individual of the audience? What are the quests worth to same? What are the comments in discussion threads worth to same? What is all the fanart worth to same? Any and all concerned individuals must decide for their own self - and only for their individual person.

And it all also depends on one's definition of the word "worth" and their attitude towards it.
Is "worth" something that defines an individual's or object's "right" to exist or to do something? If so, "worth" isn't really a thing that needs to be considered here. If you want to discuss something like that, your question should be more along the lines of "what is butt and what is not butt".
Or is it just a way to measure an individual's or object's utility? Then it's pretty clear that the author is doing more, even if it would be "worthless" without an audience.
Is it just some arbitrary "rank"? The author is an officer (officer candidate/cadet, 3rd/2nd/1st Lt, captain) and the regular audiencemember is a private who'll glue his ass to the ground unless there's some red-faced dude screaming in his face or (in an "oldfag's" case) a lance corp who knows how to avoid the screaming dude half of the time and the Secret Of The 100 Ways To Use Your Personal Gear As A Sufficient Pillow. In tgchan's case, as far as the quest is concerned, the site staff and mods are some lifer NCOs in logistics who happen to have some relations to a colonel, general or a politician (although obviously in terms of the site in relation to the site itself, they ARE the colonels, generals and politicians).

tl;dr If you really have to rank things, the author is worth more than the audience.

Also, I would like to mention tits.
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No. 21459 ID: 049dfa

>Yeah, but before being an author/director/DM he and/or she is a viewer/spectator/reader/player.

No, he is an author first, because without the author there is nothing to view/read/play.

>Also, what is the meaning of a work that will not be consumed? I'm talking about things like experiences and expectations. What the author saw as a reader, what the author wants to show to other readers.

Oh my, aren't you just a pretentious little shit.
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No. 21461 ID: f387a1

>>21459
Ouch! Maybe I worded it wrong?
And of course there's something to view/read/play/interpret! Look around you!
Anyway, worshiping the author is bad for your mental health!

>>21458
Nicely put. We don't have to rank anything. I'm just interested in observing and discussing the impact of each one.
However, let me get this straight. Regarding any work, you think that the reader is passive?
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No. 21462 ID: 4183c9

>>21461
Passive in what way?

It seems to me you're trying to make something out of nothing without having anything to say yourself.

Are you trying to give a medal to the audience just for being there? You don't get medals just for being there.
Authors don't get medals just for being there either, they need to actually achieve something worth mentioning first.

Even tits don't get medals just for being there unless they're very good at it.
>>
No. 21467 ID: f387a1

>>21462
Wow! Easy there, sis! I have no intention of glorifying one or the other!

"Just being there" is what I meant by "passive". Hey, look at us here. Your interpretation is "different" from what I wanted to convey. You're wrong, then? I believe this kind of distinction doesn't exist, you're not wrong and I'm not right. The author may even try to induce an interpretation, but the work is complete only after it is interpreted by the reader. We can go further and discuss with others, sharing interpretations. A book without someone to read it is nothing more than paper and ink. Being an author is creating the possibility of multiple stories about the same thing. Both author and reader are active.

Anyway, I couldn't understand your metaphor about medals! You sound like Muttley!
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No. 21468 ID: 3581fd

herp
>>
No. 21470 ID: 97eb79

>>21468

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT
>>
No. 21476 ID: 97eb79

>>21317

Actually I would like to comment on this seriously for a moment.

In a way it's like, dropping any 'legitimate' finesse in art or writing to attract an audience by taking advantage of sexuality. This isn't to say that someone who makes a quest like this has no finesse, but it seems like 'cheating' to me. It's like being a cop and catching rapists by dressing up like a woman and dancing sensually before mentally handicapped men, all the while begging for rape. And you've got the fake tears and running mascara going and everything. And then the minute he stands up, BAM! Tased and cuffed. So, to substitute roles, we have the author taking the place of the crooked cop, and the suggesters are all like mentally handicapped men with no control over their sexuality.
It's like being in a super low-class brothel in some underground slum. It smells like actual shit, piss and vomit in there, and when you walk in there, you realise you've made a huge mistake, but it's too late. They lock the doors behind you, and next thing you know, you are in there with a bunch of slavering, overweight and brain-damaged goons, fighting over the last, terrified woman who still has a heartbeat. Biting, clawing and gouging - and you don't even care, because you've turned into one of them.


I mean, occasionally adding something sexy to the quest? Sure! It can be done well, and it has. Don't overdo it, though. That's my professional verdict. I mean, why else would you draw a character with huge tits or whatever? Is it just because female characters need tits?

FUCK NO

Actually the reason why: because you know it's awesome to draw tits, and because suggesters know it's awesome to look at them. Then sometimes you give the tits to the suggesters as a reward and they think it's great. It's like when you go to the bakery and they have free, but small samples of a type of cake, and you have one and it tastes awesome. But you don't go and get the whole cake and eat it right there, do you? Fuck no, you dickhead. You don't eat it in the car on the way home, either. Have you ever seen anyone eating a whole cake in the car before? No, you haven't, and that's because these people know it's a lot better to wait a little bit longer, and eat the cake in smaller portions when they get home, because they'll enjoy it more.

Finally, in my opinion (this is important), there is just something cheap and gross about a quest whose purpose is nought but to sexualise some characters. It kills any real depth these characters might have hoped to have, because your readers instantly have the expectation that there's going to be sex, and suddenly personalities and character development matter a lot less to the story than exposed genitals. It is exploitation.
It's like those awful places in Eastern Europe where they have warehouses with gross, pastel coloured interior walls where they make porn on super low-quality cameras with human slaves as actual rape victims. And they try all disgusting shit in the film, and the worst part is that the girls aren't even that attractive. Then when the film is over they just strangle the girls and feed their bodies to the dogs they have chained up outside in the mud.

So to answer you question, no. I don't think it's "unethical." Actually I think that's a terrible choice of word, but I do think it's a cheap, ugly thing and that nobody should ever do it.
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No. 21478 ID: f387a1

>>21476
I understand your feelings, but I disagree with what you said. This is pornography, nothing else. The intention is exactly to attract and excite men. This speech about how pornography degrades everything around it, especially the image of women, isn't new. Just as some feminists believe that women should be the center of intercourse, or that everyone must demonstrate a supposedly egalitarian treatment in their intimate life, you defend that this type of pornography degrades the medium and the potential of their characters. However, many aren't interested in that. They just want this "perversity", they want to take on different roles, they want the pleasure. Sometimes I want to be dominated or be domineering, others I seek pleasure in the activity itself, and many times I just want to be embraced with that person. As we discuss about fictional characters and actors willing to work in the pornography sector, there are real problems such as sexual harassment, domestic violence, sexual exploitation, Human trafficking, rape. Just as consumers of other recreational activities, those who consume pornography or adopt roles and fetishes are also aware of the differences between fiction and reality, intimate life and social life.

tl;dr. Why should we care if it doesn't negatively affects someone's life?

> tits
"When you hug a girl with a flat chest, you're closer to her heart" OR "When a flat chested girl hugs you, she's holding you closer to her hear." You can say the same about boys, just because.
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No. 21479 ID: 97eb79

>>21478

>This speech about how pornography degrades everything around it, especially the image of women, isn't new.

That is not how I intended it to come across, but some of the subsequent points you made are correct.


>However, many aren't interested in that. They just want this "perversity", they want to take on different roles, they want the pleasure.

This is closer to what I was getting at, but you did a better job of saying it concisely. Ask yourself; to the best part, what is a quest? It is an interactive story, and it is hard to focus on these story elements when there is something [intended to be] far more engaging going on in the form of blatant sexuality. That is like, who cares about the "personalities" of characters in a porn film?

Also I was going to respond to something else, but it rolled out of my head already.
>>
No. 21480 ID: 4183c9

PORN IS WAY BAD, IT CAUSES RAPE, AS PROVED BY A 90% DECREASE IN RAPES SINCE PORN GOT BIG IN THE 1970's oh wait.

And the strong, independent feminists who don't need no man hate this because it makes men less dependent on women, because... uh... patriarchy and sexism and gendered violence and rape culture? I have no idea.

Also, some study/studies indicate that paedophiles who read a lot of loli comics and/or otherwise peruse that kind of porn are less likely to actually molest real children.

And adults should be able to differentiate between fantasy and reality anyway, so if porn causes you problems, get out your pacifier and go back to kindergarten, because it's obvious that ENTIRE TEAM IS BABIES.

And if anyone is offended by some ass'n'titties, I'll promise to lose my shit every time a fictional male character has a high-salary job, an expensive suit and a super-luxury car. Or is dark and tall, with a five-o'clock shadow, etc. usw. jne.
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No. 21481 ID: f7ae22

>>21479
>>That is like, who cares about the "personalities" of characters in a porn film?
A lot of people are more interested by porn when it is of fleshed out characters that they like. This is why people like porn of quest characters or established characters from other media so much.
>>
No. 21482 ID: 97eb79

>>21481

While that seems fair enough, I think it only works one way. Porn made of existing and known characters, rather than characters made out of porn. Unless it was some recurring thing, I don't imagine it would serve much purpose, and would consequently not really change anything.
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No. 21483 ID: 4183c9

>>21482
A lot of people enjoy porn more if a specific actress is involved. Many porn comics have at least some characterization and the ones mentioned most often have very definite characters.

The porn that doesn't have any character isn't so because people don't care, it's simply because the producers can get away with it. And it doesn't exactly help that porn is demonized to such a degree. If porn were considered roughly equally respectable as any other movie genre, we might be seeing movies with characters and plot, just like any other movie, except with lots of explicit sex.

But no, porn is bad and causes rape.

Unless it's in a "respectable" book. Then it's OK. It can be all deep politics and philosophy, until suddenly it's "throbbing manhood" entering some colorful vagina-analogue, and the like.
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No. 21489 ID: f387a1

>>21479
You're talking about something more "tasteful"? I agree to an extent, something without emotional involvement or an interesting story simply isn't enough for me. However, there are different tastes and opinions. Similarly, for each excellent work there will be countless simply mediocre. Pornography isn't different from other forms of entertainment, actually.
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No. 21491 ID: 58a693

I might be wrong, but I think Overlord is talking about a quest-as-porn trying to disguise itself as a quest-as-a-story.

If it's obviously porn and nothing but porn, then who cares? If you're trying to tell a story and put in all kinds of porn shit, it's going to take away from the story, because it's interactive so suggesters will either 1) focus on the porn and ignore the story or 2) fight with the suggesters who want to move the story forward.

By "porn" I don't mean "any sex or nudity" but something more explicit than that. Sex and nudity can have a legitimate place in a legitimate story, depending.
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No. 21492 ID: 4183c9

>>21491
What's the difference between a disguise and mere bad writing?

>If you're trying to tell a story and put in all kinds of porn shit, it's going to take away from the story, because it's interactive so suggesters will either 1) focus on the porn and ignore the story or 2) fight with the suggesters who want to move the story forward.
Then isn't it the author's job to keep shit straight? Just choochoo shit forward or just plain set up a press conference and pass some legislation.

>By "porn" I don't mean "any sex or nudity" but something more explicit than that.
Where's the line?
>>
No. 21493 ID: a4d6e2

>>21491
I don't think the implication that porn and story are mutually exclusive is necessarily accurate.
>>
No. 21505 ID: 1444d5

>>21493
That's the crux of the matter. It's entirely possible to have porn and plot at the same time (e.g. XXXenophile).
If your experience of porn is only from buying DVDs/VHS from stores (or downloading same), it's somewhat akin to only ever having watched soap operas on TV and concluding that all TV is base pandering drivel (if the analogy is stretched to imply that anything other than soap operas is rarely aired and only then at odd hours). Porn without a decent storyline and characters is just bad porn, but it's a lot cheaper than putting in effort and finding half-decent actors, and everyone is used to shitty porn 'just being how porn is'.
>>
No. 21509 ID: e3f578

>>21505
>bad porn is cheaper
Not necessarily, a famous porn writer could be an expensive buy and his writing for that work could be shit but he's still bought from name alone
An amateur writer who's cheap because it's one of his first writing jobs might accidentally write some fucking porn gold because he didn't because his paycheck was smaller. The actors may really get into their roles because they're fun rolls, creating good acting or are another pair of amatuers that accidentally give good performances.

Then the directors could have some good streamlining chops that work, have a non-obstructive form of OCD that doesn't end up costing the studio that much money (which all contributors like the writer or actors could have too), or again just accidentally does his job good not to scale with his pay.

Not all masterpieces are intentional or planned. Even porn masterpieces. Imagine, the perfect porn, you feel for the characters, you laugh, you cry, and you even accomplished your original plan.

You got a boner.
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No. 21594 ID: b2b7ff

> A lot of people are more interested by porn when it is of fleshed out characters that they like.
Precisely.

By now it's obvious from Doxy's messages that he/she is trying to make money on his/her "quest".

But instead of coming up with original characters the author borrows them from MLP:FIM, to which a certain pool of readers is already emotionally attached, and exploits this setup.

And this is even more wrong to me than baiting readers with promises of porn in the opening images.

When Zone makes porn flash games and asks for money, I'm cool with that.
When certain artists draw porn for cash, DeviantArt points or what have you, that's fine by me.
But these people are at least calling things by their names. They don't try to make their artistic product look like a quest.

A quest by definition has the potential to be deeper, more engaging and longer-lasting-in-memory than a high-quality picture. Therefore, reducing this medium to an interactive illustrated fapfic is a huge waste, and so is shifting your readers' focus to sexual content.

This is what I meant by "unethical".
>>
No. 21596 ID: 1444d5

>>21594
So paying for customer requested art (commissions) is A-OK, but paying for art with merely customer input (a quest) is somehow doubleplusungood?
>A quest by definition [etc]
Bullshit.
>>
No. 21598 ID: 1b8066

>>21596
Is that really what you got from that? What I saw was "it's degrading the artform". Of course, there are certainly arguments you could levy against the validity of that complaint too.
>>
No. 21603 ID: d7e757

>Therefore, reducing this medium to an interactive illustrated fapfic is a huge waste, and so is shifting your readers' focus to sexual content.

What if they just want a specific theme or concept and they pay money for that? Or they use it to get images of what would otherwise be a text quest, which, according to many opinions, are inferior to arted quests? What about just getting an author to continue an old quest they dropped?
>>
No. 21606 ID: a232e5

>What if they just want a specific theme or concept and they pay money for that? Or they use it to get images of what would otherwise be a text quest, which, according to many opinions, are inferior to arted quests?
Then they should ask for it. A quest is shaped by the suggestors as much as it is by the author. Call me purist, but I contend that quest advancement - or form, for that matter - should not depend on any kind of monetary reward. It's a thing everyone's doing for kicks. "I'll be driving the quest at half force unless you pay me" is not a healthy standpoint.

>What about just getting an author to continue an old quest they dropped?
Why was it dropped? If the author just got bored with it and wandered off to do something else, again, a plea from the fans is enough and money is not necessary. If the author dropped it because they're having a hard time making the ends meet, then donating to them has less to do with the quest and more with just helping out someone you like and/or think is cool.

Although I admit I was a bit frustrated while writing >>21594 .
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No. 21607 ID: 3581fd

>>21606

So, are you honestly so retarded that you think that free stuff is inherently superior to paid stuff regardless of the difference in quality between two things?

Or do you just hate capitalism so much that the very idea of somebody making money when there is a demand for their service makes you so irrational that you just vomit words at your keyboard and hope they make sentences?
>>
No. 21608 ID: fed066

I'm not happy with it because he's diverting money away from who really needs it - the foundering MLP fleshlight industry. We can't stand to lose any more American jobs.
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No. 21614 ID: d7e757

Were I to 'fund' a quest, I would only do so in the sense of "Run this setting, I'll pay you such and such every thread of 300+ posts and at least fifty updates". I'd not try to steer the content.

Also, you failed to address adding art to a text quest with commissions.
>>
No. 21618 ID: 58a693

>>21606
This is just... extremely stupid. Quests as an "art form" aren't "degraded" by Doxy making an MLP paid tumblr quest. I think it's more valid than Zone's porno flashes because it's basically a puzzle game with porn you can get for doing the puzzles right. That's actually a lot more clever and interesting than some flash of Toph giving Aang a footjob with an annoying mechanic added.

If Doxy asks for money and people want to pay money for the product, there isn't really an issue. Having a bunch of totally shittastic quests with irregular update schedules (or ones that just die part way through, like most of them) make the medium look worse than one person making money. Also who gives a shit?

Like, are people not going to read other quests or questlike things because there is a porno MLP tublr quest? It is not going to make a single bit of difference one way or the other.
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No. 21645 ID: 72d49b

>>21618
>This is just... extremely stupid.
Read the thread's subject line.
>>
No. 21677 ID: 9ae4c7

I've done a few quests I was paid to do. I agree that paying for suggestions to be more likely to get used sullies the concept just a little bit, but them getting money for doing a lot of work that a bunch of people benefit from and enjoy is not a terrible thing.
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No. 21696 ID: 01f6f1
File 134161673992.jpg - (203.82KB , 1175x1600 , THOR.jpg )
21696

Unforgivable! The moe subculture is tarnishing the image of crossdressing and gender identity! No plot, no personality, no depth, no comedy! It's just a new and cheap way to sell shota and lolicon! Unforgivable!
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No. 21715 ID: 01f6f1

No commitment on crossdressing! Unforgivable!

>>/questdis/56885
> for all I know it might be the main reason we are so abundant and one of the most populant species on Earth
Certainly not our highly-developed telencephalon, opposable thumb and diet. You know that many people can't get pleasure from sex? Sex, sexual behavior and reproduction are much more complicated than rubbing genitals. Furthermore, the number of deaths during pregnancy and birth, for both mothers and children, were absurd before the advent of modern medicine. Pregnancy meant risking your life. Anyway, I'm hardly an authority on this subject, much less someone who can impart knowledge efficiently. You will gain more studying on these issues.
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No. 21718 ID: 01f6f1

Excuse me, I'll channel some of the antagonism and stupidity in this thread.

>>/questdis/56901
You must be terrible in bed. Or anywhere else, really.
>>
No. 21722 ID: e3f578

I didn't want that discussion to turn into being about sex at all :(
I just wanted to discuss deerling culture and motivations. But maybe I should defend some of my concerns here. I dunno, most of it was intended discussions.

>>21715
>Certainly not our highly-developed telencephalon, opposable thumb and diet. You know that many people can't get pleasure from sex? Sex, sexual behavior and reproduction are much more complicated than rubbing genitals.
I wasn't talking about stuff on the individual level, and more about general desires. Much of our own culture and jokes discusses the pleasure of sex and its complications. There ARE unique individuals in the human race that do not enjoy sex, but the human race as a whole is abundant not only for the reasons you've stated above, but because of the selfish immediate gain of pleasure from reproducing. Why propagate the race? Why care? What do most individuals get out reproducing? To not be alone? For manpower to help tend to the farm fields? The pleasure of raising a child? All good reasons, and many use them. But the big draw, the main reason humans have a high birth rate, I believe, is still pleasurable intercourse.

>Furthermore, the number of deaths during pregnancy and birth, for both mothers and children, were absurd before the advent of modern medicine. Pregnancy meant risking your life
Yep, but not now. It's not much of a concern. And it's not 100% guaranteed death back then either. There's a decent chance you can die, but I believe there was also a decent chance at surviving birth as well. the human body fights very ard to survive. It's why there are a few cases of surviving gunshots to the head, disembowelment, etc.

With a race such as the Rekitzchen, you have a 100% chance that the Traurig will die for the purpose of conceiving a child, and have a relatively small chance at their resurrection, which doesn't actually depend on their physical body at all, but the emotions of the parents at the time of the murder. All evolutionary bodies are built to adapt and survive more efficiently. Sentient minds are not at all built efficiently. No science will help the Rekitzchen birth rates beyond marriage counseling.
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No. 21725 ID: 01f6f1

>>21722
> I didn't want that discussion to turn into being about sex at all
Sorry, I just don't feel "comfortable" having this discussion in that thread.

I'm not the best person to discuss this, so I will just point out some stuff. Many people are simply unable to enjoy sex. Unlike other species, humans are aware of the consequences of sexual intercourse. There are several ways to obtain pleasure, but most are neglected at the expense of coitus. Maternal, perinatal and infant mortalities are and always will be major concerns in the field of public health. Anyway, I believe that you're totally missing the point, because I can't draw any comparison between this and Deerling Quest.

Let me be honest, your knowledge on this subject manages to be more limited than mine. Furthermore, this isn't the kind of thing that can be discussed only through "logic" and brute force. Really, we should shut up and go back to our books before we embarrass ourselves even more.
>>
No. 21727 ID: e3f578

>>21725
the comparisons are there to establish perspective. A discussion on reproductive methods and the reasons why creatures reproduce. That was the source of the discussion. That is what it has to do with Deerling Quest. We truly only can understand human concepts, and when taking on alien concepts must try to match them to any human concept. Why do they reproduce? Why do we reproduce? To understand why, I believed we must analyze and compare reproductive methods, the odds of their consequences, etc. There's deal with the consensual murder and burial of the Traurig half. the potential consequences are permanent death and there's a damn good chance of that happening and there's no way to lower that chance. It is a relatively traumatic experience. Pretty heavy stuff to go through for something that will consume much of your own resources to raise.

Homo Sapiens are lucky in comparison, they get a potentially enjoyable method of conception which has nothing to do with traumatic death. So much easier than what deerlings have to go through, and it's even easier to survive, because the female doesn't necessarily HAVE to die to have a child. She can, but it's actually from bloodloss a side affect of birth. And while we still get the resource black hole called a child, we can still say we had fun conceiving the child in the first place. Not heavy, not dark. No deerling will ever have the potential to experience the joy in conceiving a child.

That's it. I'm comparing conceptions and the risk of mortality in both of them. Just to understand the desire of having a child for deerlings. It's basically risk vs. reward. For Deerlings, the risks are high, so the reward must be worth as much risk. Why is the reward so desirable for deerlings? Is their a human concept we could possibly attach this to? And that is why I was making all the comparisons in the discussion. For that single human concept I could attach it to. I had to run down a list man, and physical pleasure was just one of concepts I had to scratch off. I discussed it, tried to move on, then had to further justify why I brought up the point later.
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No. 21728 ID: e3f578

>Let me be honest, your knowledge on this subject manages to be more limited than mine. Furthermore, this isn't the kind of thing that can be discussed only through "logic" and brute force. Really, we should shut up and go back to our books before we embarrass ourselves even more.

Yeah you know what I should probably drop it now. I'm just obstinate, I can't help it. I gotta justify why I do things, whether it's asking a question or suggesting something. It's why most of my suggestions and questions are long as fuck and I forget to do tl;dr.
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No. 21733 ID: 01f6f1

>>21727
> Not heavy, not dark.
I wouldn't want to be your daughter or wife, just let me say this.
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No. 21735 ID: e3f578

>>21733
I revise shit in my arguments sometimes. I made a reference to Back to the Future when I described the murder in exchange for a child as "super heavy", and added that it was pretty dark. the human description part I added not heavy, not dark to contrast that reference.

I edited out the first reference and the dark part, but forgot to take out the contrasting statement later. Nonetheless, the meaning of heavy in that context is still about how human reproduction is not emotionally heavy or dark in the depressing definition.

I'm too apathetic to be hatin' on anyone over something as stupid as weight or physical differences.
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No. 21738 ID: 01f6f1

>>21735
> I'm too apathetic to be hatin' on anyone over something as stupid as weight or physical differences.
It's cool.

Oh, can't regret what I said. You reaction was just adorable.
>>
No. 21739 ID: e3f578

>>21738
What?
>>
No. 21741 ID: 01f6f1

>>21739
I was mostly joking, no need for that long winded answer.
>>
No. 21742 ID: e3f578

>>21741
I thought I described that my whole thing is long answers.
>>
No. 21744 ID: 01f6f1

>>/quest/430307
I have many language vices. First because my English is just terrible, second because English doesn't cover certain circumstances. Anyway, I overuse the expression "you guys/girls". Of course, for reasons that don't interest me at the time, if a group includes more than one gender you normally should use the masculine plural form. Well, I simply don't give a fuck. In any event, I definitely should feel offended. You clearly said that referring to a group of people of unknown gender as "girls" is derogatory. Fuck you, sir and/or madam.
>>
No. 21745 ID: 4183c9

>>21744
"Guys" is gender- and age-neutral.

"Girls" refers to adolescent females.

"Guys" isn't the opposite of "girls". "Boys" would be.

You could be more condescending or offensive if you ended each sentence with ", kid" (the comma is there for a reason), but to top that you'd have to resort to overt insults. Even with "girls" you are achieving a quite passive-aggressive tone, regardless of your intentions.
>>
No. 21749 ID: 01f6f1

>>21745
> "Guys" is gender- and age-neutral.
Not at all times, but that's exactly what I said. I also said that I don't care.

> Even with "girls" you are achieving a quite passive-aggressive tone, regardless of your intentions.
Because I'm not using the norm, which happens to be patriarchal. You don't like what I use, I don't like the norm. What now?
Anyway, being offended by what you perceive as "passive-aggressive tone"? Really.

> overt insults
Which are? I usually don't go around saying how others SHOULD make suggestions.
>>
No. 21751 ID: 4183c9

>>21749
>Not at all times
40-something females sometimes address their group as "girls" ("me and the girls were having a bit of fun"), and men calling other men "girls" is usual enough in a military setting ("alright, girls, get the fuck in fucking position and let's fucking get this fucking shit over with"). In the former case, "girls" is being used with a bit of humor. In the latter, you don't get to call anyone a "girl" unless you're an insider.
It's very context-sensitive.

This does not change the default state of "guys" being gender- and age-neutral, as it is in its most common usage.

>I also said that I don't care.
You don't care whether or not people understand you correctly? Not being proficient at basic communication isn't a crime, but willful ignorance certainly does not earn you any medals.

>Because I'm not using the norm
>I don't like the norm.
This isn't about norms. This is fucking Basics Of Communication 101. You don't go to downtown Baghdad to yell "ELIF AIR AB DINICH" over and over again, just because you "don't like the norm", without consequences. Whitey don't get to go to Harlem and call a nigga a nigga without consequences. And you don't get to call people girls, in an environment where it's not a neutral denomination, without consequences.
Changing the meaning of a common word or phrase just for yourself isn't "not using the norm". If it was a made-up word you were using, or a rare one with no easily confused context, it would be simply be a matter of taste.

Or even if "girls" was used in a conversation of neutral or positive tone. But you were being defensive and in such a position any breech of "norm", without a strong established precedence of unnormative speech pattern, is a very bad idea unless you want to be insulting.

>patriarchal
Entirely irrelevant. Entirely, completely, utterly. Unless you want to talk about systemic gendered oppression and that sort of thing - which is a quite "funny" topic on its own right.

>being offended by what you perceive as "passive-aggressive tone"? Really.
Going the "plausible" deniability route? Either you just don't want to admit your mistake, or you actually fully intended to use this type of "hidden" insult. More often than not, "careless" comments aren't as unavoidable as some would like to pretend.
>>
No. 21752 ID: 58a693

>>21749
It's not because you're not using the norm, it's because "girl" refers to an adolescent. Did you just not read what he read, or are you simply not capable of comprehending simple sentences?

The reason it's insulting is because you're calling everyone children.

If you didn't give a fuck you'd just use the proper term instead of pretending like you are taking some sort of stance so you can feel superior/be an attention whore/whatever the hell your game is.
>>
No. 21753 ID: 01f6f1

>>21751
> This is fucking Basics Of Communication 101.
Yeah, just like context. Of course, my posts on that quest were already insulting, the use of the correct term wouldn't make any difference.

> "ELIF AIR AB DINICH"
For someone who complains about how others sound, you certainly abused here. I understood what you said, no need to repeat yourself.

> Either you just don't want to admit your mistake, or you actually fully intended to use this type of "hidden" insult. More often than not, "careless" comments aren't as unavoidable as some would like to pretend.
Honestly.

It was never intentional, I just like how it sounds. This is unusual? I knew I was wrong, however. Never knew this could be interpreted as an insult, but I knew it was wrong.

Anyway, now that you said what bothers you, you're interested in hearing what bothers me?

> Entirely irrelevant. Entirely, completely, utterly.
Is this an invitation? I gladly accept, of course!
>>
No. 21755 ID: 01f6f1

>>21752
Should I use "gals" instead? I don't like how it sounds, however.

> feel superior/be an attention whore/whatever the hell your game is
No games, dude. "Dude" is okay? You identify yourself as a man, right? Anyway, I just like how "You girls!" sounds. It's cute.
>>
No. 21758 ID: 58a693

>>21755
People generally are going to be confused or assume you're insulting them if you use "girls" instead of the proper masculine term. You certainly have to have figured this out at some point.

Having to explain yourself to people and obstinately choose to use the wrong term makes you an attention whore. Like, I get that english isn't your first language, but the first time people tell you "girls is insulting unless in certain contexts or if it's a group of all actual girls" you should not be like "Oh nah bro I don't believe in norms" you should, you know, just use the right term.
>>
No. 21761 ID: 01f6f1

>>21758
You already got it all figured out. Why do you keep arguing, I'll never understand.

> You certainly have to have figured this out at some point.
Actually, I didn't. I noticed that some were confused, others tried to correct me by saying that they were men. I found that funny. Why believe in my word, though? The whole world is out there to violate you in the butt, man. You're totally right in being wary.
>>
No. 21762 ID: b85f8c

>>21761
>It doesn't matter. You are a woman, you'll get all the unwanted attention you don't need. Don't know why so much importance is given to this kind of thing, but I gave up on understanding people like you. Yeah, I get it. You're a woman. You and half of the world. Why should I give a fuck, really?

This is an example of you contradicting yourself in a way that seems tailored to be as offensive as possible. You belittled the PC for being female then said it's no big deal. Then you came in this thread and said:
>In any event, I definitely should feel offended. You clearly said that referring to a group of people of unknown gender as "girls" is derogatory. Fuck you, sir and/or madam.

So you hate women, but if saying someone is a girl is seen as derogatory, that's offensive? You're either completely nuts or trolling heavily. In either case, you are being disruptive.
>>
No. 21766 ID: 01f6f1

>>21762
I was complaining about how men and women are treated differently, about how women are constantly harassed. That's all.

> In either case, you are being disruptive.
Yeah. Want me to stop or something? Honest question.
>>
No. 21767 ID: 4183c9

>>21766
>about how women are constantly harassed.
HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HUE HEU HUE HEU HUEHEUH HUE UHE HUEHEH

Men are approximately 50% of all rape victims, except in the US where the majority of rape victims are male due to prison rape.
Women get lower sentences than men for the same exact crimes.
After passing a law that made the police arrest the attacking party in a domestic violence call, DV-organizations/feminists/that sort of people passed a new law where in practice the man is automatically arrested, because the previous new law didn't actually get the results they wanted, as half or more of the people arrested were women - because, get this, women initiate violence as much if not more than men, for the same reasons (NOT in "pre-emptive self-defense"). Single mothers are also 40% more likely to abuse their children and the majority of DV in homosexual relationships occurs in lesbian relationships.
Men are eligible for draft, women aren't. Outside of Israel, I'm not aware of a place where women are conscripted, and conscription certainly is something I have first-hand experience of.
In volunteer militaries, women have lower standards.

Men are constantly and intentionally depicted as the only rapists, child molesters and domestic abusers. All men are Schrödinger's rapists by default, in popular image as well as actual laws in some places and cases. Underage 12-14-year-old males have been forced to pay their female rapist child support when she got pregnant.
Speaking of 12-year-old males, some DV shelters do not allow males 12 years old or older in. And speaking of DV shelters, if I remember correctly, there are 300 DV shelters for women, but none for men, in either Canada or UK, can't remember which. A woman who opened a DV shelter for men in the UK was forced to flee out of country by other women and feminists, but only after she had lived with constant police protection due to repeated death threats, bomb threats, and she finally fled when those people killed her dog.

In some place(s?) a woman who drinks alcohol and has consensual sex while under the influence is raped according to law. The brand shiny new "more equal" definition of rape in US law still excludes woman-on-man rape as a concept.

According to studies, women fear violence more than men, while men are actually the majority of the victims of said violence.
A journalist in, was it Canada, lamented the "alarming statistics" of women having relatively recently become almost 50% of the victims, due to - get this - THE NUMBER OF ATTACKS OVERALL AND ESPECIALLY AGAINST MEN GOING DOWN.

Men are 92% of workplace deaths.


Oh, those poor women, constantly harassed.

For people who have the numbers, the links to the studies and present all of it better than I do, start with:
http://www.youtube.com/user/manwomanmyth/videos?view=1
http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/videos

Then we can start on this topic again.
>>
No. 21769 ID: 58a693

>>21761
> You certainly have to have figured this out at some point.

>Actually, I didn't. I noticed that some were confused...

So... you didn't notice people being confused and correcting you, but you noticed they were confused and corrected you?

Fuck. I guess I can't very well expect you to understand what other people are saying when you obviously don't even read what you are writing. I think that is the fasted I have ever seen anybody contradict themselves.
>>
No. 21770 ID: 58a693

The model penal code definition also excludes man-on-man or woman-on-woman sex offense as rape. Fortunately, basically no state uses gendered words in their rape definition. Almost every state just says "a person who... another person"

Gender specific rape law was challenged in the supreme court, however, and they ruled that it is not unconstitutional for a state to define rape in a gender-specific context.
>>
No. 21771 ID: 4183c9

>>21768
OK, this video addresses this thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNnw_iJr2cE

Also, it appears I may have gotten some stuff (such as this particular item) muddled in my previous post, which is a good reason to go through all the videos and such. Such as http://owningyourshit.blogspot.com/ although the more recent stuff is almost entirely just transcripts of the GWW videos (or the videos just readings of the posts).

JtO has stuff to say too so it doesn't hurt to check his other videos, but I think GWW and MWM are clearer on the whole, especially if for you this stuff is new, "new", or varying degrees thereof.
>>
No. 21772 ID: 4183c9

>>21770
Well, what I understood from the JtO video linked in my previous post, many people and MRAs are worried about the alcohol part and the possibility of the official definition of "penetration" excluding the kind of penetration where a woman forces her vagOOO on a man's pOnOs.
Especially when, while technically not stated in such a way, there's a high chance of the alcohol thing working only one way (a drunk woman is raped, a drunk man is a rapist) - or going the full retard way (if you both were drunk, never mention it to anyone or you BOTH are rapists even if neither of you feels it was rape - in which case the woman's going to get off easier by default).
That the "new" definition is just "plausible" deniability thing (as in, "we still only consider man-on-anything as rape, but not woman-on-man, and you can't complain because TECHNICALLY we didn't word it EXACTLY that way").
>>
No. 21779 ID: 01f6f1

>>21769
I figured that it was confusing for some, but not insulting. I'm saying that I had no intention of offending anyone, that I hadn't realized that saying "you girls" was offensive. Are you trying to win something here? You don't give a fuck to what I write, so why do you keep arguing?

>>21767
BR? Sorry, what is the relationship between what I said and all this information dump?
>>
No. 21780 ID: 4183c9

>>21779

>>21766
>I was complaining about how men and women are treated differently, about how women are constantly harassed.
>about how women are constantly harassed

The StuK 40 of my StuG III is ALWAYS loaded with High Explosive Anti-Bullshit shells.

This is actually a decent example of context as relates to the previous topic, as one does not simply make careless off-hand comments in the BDA thread without a chance receiving replies.

Also it's on you to prove that you did not vote for Stalin.
>>
No. 21781 ID: 01f6f1

>>21780
Hey, you really want to talk?
>>
No. 21782 ID: 58a693

>>21779
I am just pointing out you being stupid and wrong. I am pretty sure that's what BDA is for.

Your whole attitude is really defensive and angry. You need to chill out.
>>
No. 21783 ID: 4183c9

>>21781
What's that supposed to mean?
>>
No. 21784 ID: 01f6f1

>>21782
> I am just pointing out you being stupid and wrong.
That's what I'm trying to say from the beginning. I was wrong, I am stupid, I do not care.

> Your whole attitude is really defensive and angry.
Yes, that's exactly how I'm behaving now. You know me better than myself. It's so ridiculous that I don't even need to say anything, you already have all the answers.
>>
No. 21785 ID: 01f6f1

>>21783
I never said anything that contradicted what you said.
>>
No. 21786 ID: 58a693

>>21771
This guy presents material in an unclear way and really doesn't do his homework.

Keep in mind, first and foremost, that this isn't some definition that has meaning other than how the FBI is reporting certain statistics. It doesn't change the criminal definition of rape, because most crimes are defined by state legislatures, not the federal government, especially typical "police power" crimes like rape, battery, murder, etc.

His inability to find the full text must be a symptom of either laziness or ignorance. The full text of the UCR is available online, on the FBI's website, and the reason the "more complete" new definition isn't otherwise anywhere is because the new version of the UCR hasn't been published anywhere. It's not a conspiracy.

There are two crime statistics reporting metrics, the UCR and the NIBRS. The purpose of the UCR is to get broad data on general types of crimes. The purpose of the NIBRS is to get more crime-specific data. The NIBRS defines rape as:

"The carnal knowledge of a person, forcibly and/or against that person's will; or not forcibly or against the person's will where the victim is incapable of giving consent because of his/her temporary or permanent mental or physical incapacity (or because of his/her youth)”

So this is already a broad, gender neutral definition. Although NIBRS does specifically exclude homosexual rape for some reason.

Some of the other things he says are also misleading. Non-penetrative activities are defined in a gender neutral way and fall under a lesser category, and women can obviously rape men by having them penetrate their vagina, even under the definition he lists.

The thing about alcohol is also just stupid and evidences a total lack of research on his part. Either a lesser degree or an alternate definition of rape in almost every jurisdiction is when you intentionally give somebody intoxicants such that they are incapable of consent. It doesn't make it a crime to have sex with somebody while they are drunk, or while you are drunk. It makes it a crime to intentionally drug somebody or intentionally get them completely plastered so they don't know what's going on. Also phrased in gender-neutral terms pretty much everywhere that lists it as a lesser degree/alternate definition.

To the extent that the FBI has changed their reporting statistics, it is to bring in more closely in line with statutory definitions in most jurisdictions. To the extent that they specifically included drugging, it can be safely assumed that it will line up with how the states who include that do it, which is as I described.

He seems really intent on hunting out "persecution" and "conspiracies" and less intent on actually doing his homework and performing even cursory research. Just the fact that he said "I sent the FBI an email half an hour ago. Let's see if I get a respons" is accusatory and ignorant. Shouldn't he have done his "report" on the issue after he contacted them and waited a reasonable period to see if they would respond?
>>
No. 21787 ID: 4183c9

>>21785
You posted:
>>I was complaining about how men and women are treated differently, about how women are constantly harassed.

To which I replied with a very small sample of all the reasons why such a statement is bullshit. Because that's how I roll.

To which you in turn replied with the type of phrase that is often used as a condescending, "subtle" version of "wow, you never shut up, do you" or "you appear to have some deep-seated emotional issue", and variations thereof.
>>
No. 21788 ID: 58a693

>>21784
Okay well, to clarify, the way you write presents an image of being defensive and angry. Maybe you are not at all like that, and are just not great at communicating.

Actually all evidence in this thread strongly supports this hypothesis.

I can present an example from the post I'm replying to.

Instead of clarifying, you are aggressive and accusatory. Sarcastically stating that I "have all the answers" and "know [you] better than [you] know [yourself]" doesn't present a calm, rational attitude. I obviously don't know very much about you at all, but you seem actually surprised when people continue to argue with you, even though your responses tend to be, at the least, insulting.

The other reason I kept on before was because you never actually said I was right. I thought you were still disagreeing with me, because your response was defensive instead of conciliatory.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume this is because you have trouble communicating, and not because you are intentionally obtuse.
>>
No. 21790 ID: 01f6f1

>>21788
Thanks.

Would you believe if I said that most of these "insults" weren't directed at you?

>>21787
What a whiny bitch. Shut up.

Women are the only victims? No. Only women are harassed? No. Men suffer nothing with the difference? No. Will I treat Claire differently because she has boobs? No. A drugged sociopath will get hit by some bozo if she straight her shit up and go to a bar? Yes.
>>
No. 21804 ID: 3581fd

>>21790

>specifically call out the harassment of women
>backpedal furiously
>try to not only move the goalposts, but try to convince everyone involved that you were shooting for entirely different goalposts to begin with

You are the stupidest motherfucker I have seen in this thread.

And I post in this thread.
>>
No. 21805 ID: fa9f7e
File 134189408888.jpg - (19.00KB , 300x300 , kelso-burn.jpg )
21805

>>21804
>>
No. 21808 ID: f99095

>>21804
What exactly are you criticizing?
>>
No. 21810 ID: 3581fd

>>21808

Pretty much every post lady moon posh has made is dripping with entitled bullshit (also he seems like the sort of fag who would unironically tell someone to check their cisprivelege).

And, as evidenced by the previous posts in this thread, it would be a waste of my time to actually go through and explain to him why he's a shithead. If you can't see why, then I am baffled as to how you could possibly respond to my posts due to your crippling illiteracy.

So, given that this is the big dumb arguments thread, I decided to insult him because he is a fucking idiot and I felt like making my opinion known.
>>
No. 21817 ID: 4183c9

>>21790
>What a whiny bitch. Shut up.
Ace argument, fraulein.

>A drugged sociopath will get hit by some bozo if she straight her shit up and go to a bar?
Has...

...Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
>>
No. 21818 ID: f99095

>>21810
> I felt like making my opinion known.
Cool beans.

>>21817
You said something about "subtly" insulting and telling others to shut up. That was my answer. Anyway, I thought we were arguing about whatever I wanted to convey with my words. In my humble opinion, not a noteworthy subject. Maybe you guys really enjoy telling others how they should do things, particularly completely unimportant and totally insignificant things.
>>
No. 21819 ID: 4183c9

>>21818
So you actually were using that type of passive-aggressive "subtle" insult? Is that what you are saying?

In which case in your reply you should have stated that "what a whiny bitch, shut up" was the intent of your previous post. For example, you could've said "What I meant by that was that you are a whiny bitch and should shut up".

Which leads me to believe that "bad English" isn't actually the cause here.

By which I mean to imply you cannot communicate sufficiently in any language.

And what you want to convey with your words is actually a very noteworthy subject because THIS WHOLE THING DID IN FACT START FROM YOUR INABILITY TO CONVEY WITH YOUR WORDS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY MEANT.
>>
No. 21850 ID: 52f50e

>>21819
I did. Doesn't justify what I did, but I was in a really foul mood. I blew up because of a comment and take it out on you guys. Sorry about that. However, I don't think that an apology is enough, but I'll try not to repeat the same mistake. Or shut up and shut down the computer when I get depressed again.
>>
No. 21884 ID: ab63b5

> ==>
> this

Damned be you all, lazy bastards.
>>
No. 21885 ID: 72d49b

>>21884
To be fair, Ficus did say we're on autopilot. Although it should be sufficient for that to just not post.
>>
No. 21887 ID: 4bdd79

>>21884
This.
>>
No. 21890 ID: 997ce7

>>21884
==>
>>
No. 21892 ID: 96a1b7

Introducing direct player characters for suggesters to control is the worst possible thing you can do to the stability and long term life of a quest. Agreed?
>>
No. 21893 ID: 2972f8

>>21892

with this audience? yes.
>>
No. 21894 ID: e3f578

>>21892
Which quests did that?
I remember one where the orb was given a robot body.
Do interactions like the one in Shoujen count? Where we had [insert insane thing here] abilities?
>>
No. 21895 ID: 96a1b7

>>21894
Guns for Hire did, and it resulted in half of each update being about them, and later, entire updates.

Which makes it even less recommendable, as it switches focus rather jarringly in the latest thread from HA HA LET US TROLL EVERYTHING to OH MY GOSH WE LOVE THIS RUSSIAN SO MUCH

>>21894
Doesn't count, still requires consensus.
>>
No. 21896 ID: e3f578

>>21895
That's sounds like your generic systemless forum RP than an actual quest.
>>
No. 21897 ID: e3f578

>>21896
I would also like to establish that the "your" in this as in "Your friendly neighborhood Spiderman" instead of implying that you personally have a generic systemless forum RP.
>>
No. 21898 ID: 96a1b7

>>21896
That is exactly what it became.

With one of those Russians sleeping with and seducing the main character.
>>
No. 21899 ID: 4183c9

>>21895
>>21896
>>21898
I thought it was less of a "generic systemless forum RPG" and more of a "massively overbloated collection of wiki updates in a half-arsed effort to make up for the lack of actual content".

But maybe that's just me.
>>
No. 21907 ID: a7a256

>>21317
Well I'll be, looks interesting now.
>>
No. 21930 ID: e3f578

You know, her owning and playing with a toy sword implies that she was a bit of a tomboy. Probably had actual dreams of being an adventurer once she thought she could never be a mage. I wonder how that panned out in Hammerfell or why she didn't try that before becoming a woman of ill repute.
I'm also curious if her pimp might try and track her down all the way to Cyrodil. It's hard giving away that lifestyle. You know she had to have had a pimp.
>>
No. 21932 ID: 6a1ec2

>>21930

Uh, yeah, whatever. I don't think a bordello owner would cross the ocean to beat up some raggedy cat lady just because she didn't give two weeks notice, no matter how skilled she was with a yo-yo. If anyone crossed the sea to get revenge on her it would be that cult she doesn't like to talk about, which is much scarier than a single pimp. And then there's the demon king marauding her dreams, more dangerous than both pimp and cult. And of course, there's the opening story of Oblivion, which being a world ending crisis is the most dangerous thing of all.

So, pimps are kind of low on my priority of worries right now.
>>
No. 21933 ID: e3f578

>>21932
This IS a dark comedy though
Just sayin' shit can get ridiculous in this genre
remember Idiocracy and upgrayedd? Motherfucker wanted his money from 500 years in the future and got there even though there was no project to make a third cryopod, had access to no scientists even actually aware of the project, and somehow decided that, instead of digging out his ho, he'd just freeze himself.

In a dark fantasy comedy, you're goddamn right I expect a pimp to cross an ocean to get some of his motherfuckin' money from even the most raggedy of women. And the more ridiculous something is, the more dangerous it might be.
>>
No. 21964 ID: 6a1ec2

>>21933

Yeah, but unlike Idiocracy and upgrayedd, Prequel is actually good.
>>
No. 21965 ID: e3f578

>>21964
The presence of a persistent pimp does not indicate quality or effect the whole's products quality. It's just one joke villain, really, and can be done well. And its been done in other absurd comedies before, or from a story a comedian told. Persistent and asshole pimp jokes are commonly mentioned when pimping is described in comedy. Because pimps are greedy assholes that love money, and pimping ain't easy... apparently.

But this is apparently coming from a guy who liked that movie telling a person who didn't about it. So, take that first statement with a grain of salt if that seems unreasonable.
>>
No. 21967 ID: 6a1ec2

>>21965

Yeah I'm not a big fan of stereotyping the porn industry until reality imitates fiction, no matter how funny the tired old rehashed joke is. You're free to like those movies; I was just being snarky.
>>
No. 21968 ID: e3f578

That's... not how that works, and even then it's not the porn industry we're talking about. We're talking about something actually considered criminal. Whether its considered criminal in Hammerfell is another thing entirely.

In addition, that's not something funny, it's something you snirk at, nothing more. People don't repeat shit that was at first meant to be funny to be, unless their fools. Often, it's for entirely different reasons.

Like memes for example, no one really laughs at memes, they're not clever. After a certain point, it's just there for the snirk you get for recognizing it. A hollow retelling of the first joke, either for a sense of nostalgia or for a sense of belonging in a group that understands it. Why are memes even tolerated here at all if they serve no purpose? Because we're all retarded? No, because they have a form of meaning, often related by group. Jokes transcend their initial purpose over time, integrating into a community value or tradition. You tell them more often to get better along rather than to entertain.
>>
No. 21971 ID: e3f578

>>21970
People are dumb too
Jokes lose their funny after being told once, at least after the person hears it first
they can't have their first purpose after that.
>>
No. 21972 ID: 6a1ec2

>>21968

We're talking about something actually considered criminal ORLY? Try uncensoring fictional drawings in Japan. And yes, big pimp daddy dog yo where's my money bitch is a meme. I don't like it. We should kill it.
>>
No. 21973 ID: e3f578

Moving here because it's fully integrated into 100% argument about real life culture and 0 percent Prequel
>>21972
The porn industry and the sex industry are completely separate. You were talking about how the meme or stereotype affects the porn industry when it cannot.
>Yeah I'm not a big fan of stereotyping the porn industry until reality imitates fiction, no matter how funny the tired old rehashed joke is.
There are laws in the porn industry. You don't beat a porn star to get money from them, no one does, that's far from practical. That shit is discussed in acting contracts. Because that shit is still acting. Often it's filled with corny as fuck or just plain bad deliveries, but it's technically acting. Why you brought up the porn industry I have no idea, it didn't even seem relevant at all to the discussion. We were talking about pimping.
Okay, yeah, fine pimp abuse is a terrible, boring old meme if it's just there by itself with no deconstruction or build up. But you can't kill a meme. It's there, it's in culture, it's staying until it becomes so completely irrelevant no one talks about it anymore, which takes cultural upheaval or distancing, which cannot be controlled short of enslaving the culture. You'd have to go 1000 years in the future, where pimping will be so different you have no idea. Or the same, depending on whether or not pimps are licensed or not and have to adhere to legalized sex industry laws. If pimps have to be licensed because pimping is legal, and have been for some time in the year 3000, the unfunny joke will have pretty much died. If it's still illegal and pimping and hoing is all still within the black market, the joke will never die, because of how random human nature is and that odds are you'll have a harsh, mean pimp that abuses their hos than one that treats them with respect like Butters.

South Park, in my opinion, managed the pimping memes well, anyway, and could make them funny. But that was less about the fucking meme and more jokes about how weird the characters are. Butters the greatest, nicest pimp is so much a ridiculous concept some people can't help but laugh. In other examples of refering to pimping as a good joke, refer to the Other Guys with Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlburg, where straight-laced Will Ferrel has whole issues to do with pimping thanks to his backstory. Which, again, is still more character humor than enforcing the meme. But if the memes didn't exist, you can't build or deconstruct on them at all in the first place. We would not have a scene in the world where, in a serious discussion with his wife, he recedes back into his pimping personality due to his insecurity with his looks and real personality. This fucker pimped because he hated himself... and to make fat stacks of cash.
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No. 21974 ID: 5c0329

I would like to say that I knew this guy who made his living by pimping and he was a pretty cool guy. and once one of his employees came over and the three of us smoked some pot together.

so uh I guess fuck anyone who thinks pimps aren't cool
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No. 21975 ID: e3f578

>>21974
The issue is about the joke of pimps being abusive and how horrid it is to use in fiction, or if it can be done well.

Human nature allows a person to defy stereotypes, so I don't think anyone is going to argue that a pimp can't be nice and cool.

But please note EG, that just because he was cool to you (if you aren't joking at all), does not mean he was cool to his hoes. I would also like to say that ho doesn't have to be a misogynistic term if a person uses it to refer to male hoes as well. Which I am.
Pimps beat their male whores too you know. Or are cool to them, random human nature and all, you know.
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No. 22714 ID: 04cbad

>>15862

OH NO, A GIRL ON THE INTERNET. WE BETTER BEG HER TO POST HER PORN SO SHE CAN PRETEND LIKE SHE WAS PRESSURED TO DO IT AND TOTALLY DOESN'T LOVE COCKS.

Just fucking admit you like sex and porn already and start posting it, you'll feel better about yourself and you'll get on everyone's nerves a lot less.

Alternately if you want to pretend you're ready for the nunnery, act like it.

(This user has been banned for this post.)
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No. 22715 ID: b4e64c

>>16042
I think it's time that you piss off.

Some people just do not like sharing personal things, and that's their prerogative. So I suggest you respect their wishes.
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No. 22716 ID: d6ae01

>>15862
I would recommend against posing "tease" images if you don't intend to post the full thing-- certainly not that kind of tease, as it does not show off any art and has no purpose other than being tantalizing, which will lead to posts like above.

You are a talented artist. It would be very easy for you to make the edits you'd have to make to post some things, and other things... just don't post them? Or don't talk about them? Bam secret kept good game everyone good game.
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No. 22717 ID: 0f60d7

When did this culture arise of artists owing fucking everything to anyone else? It really pisses me off that apparently oh, you made a thing, you're OBLIGATED TO SHOW EVERYONE IF YOU SO MUCH AS HINT AT ITS EXISTENCE.

Yes, this has happened to me. Yes, I fucking hate it. "If you didn't want to share it you wouldn't have mentioned it!" Fuck off. Pay me for it if you want to see my shit scribbles that badly.
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No. 22718 ID: 734c82

>>16048
Cirr, most of the time you personally resist linking something you just drew and told people about it's because you have some irrational fear if people calling you weird. Also you refuse money :v

I mean yes I agree with the main point about artists not being obligated to show people things but I don't think you have a lot to be personally mad at here.
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No. 22719 ID: c28336
File 135163537152.jpg - (46.44KB , 300x300 , 1305783910802.jpg )
22719

>>16048
>Pay me for it if you want to see my shit scribbles that badly.
Funniest thing I've read on tgchan bar none.
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No. 22720 ID: 7ad0d4

>>16048
If you don't want to show people things you don't hint about their existence or talk about it at all. Doing it, then complaining about them asking you to show it and then somehow trying to place yourself as a victim of omg rude offensive conduct is a shitty attention whoring technique.
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No. 22722 ID: d6ae01

I feel a strong desire to shower all of you in barely-covered penises.
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No. 22723 ID: 1bdb8a

>>22722
Well you should probably do that then.
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No. 22733 ID: e17663

>>22722
Proceed...
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No. 22734 ID: ecfcdc

>>22717
Why the fuck would you not share something you made if people want it? It exists, and it costs you nothing to share it.
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No. 22735 ID: e3f578

>>22734
Dignity? You're embarrassed by it in some way?
Human condition. Michelangelo had the same issue with his scribbles I think.
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No. 22737 ID: e17663

>>22734
Because most people actually care about how other people view them, and would rather not announce it to the whole world every time they draw furry porn.
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No. 22741 ID: 1ace6e
File 135193399125.jpg - (33.55KB , 500x374 , 1267499821410.jpg )
22741

I've generally avoided this thread because I have no idea what happened (when I found my thread, the posts were already removed) besides what I was learned from the warning post. But I feel I should say my piece.

It was a gift image. I made it for a friend. I asked if I could show the little bit I was proud of, they said it was fine, and I posted it without realization that it would lead to some sort of weird avalanche of whateverthefuck. It wasn't some weird gamble for attention, I didn't expect anyone to ask to see the rest, and I never complained about the requests. In fact, that night I sketched something up (with dicks!!! wow) that I could share with everyone because it wasn't a gift. It sits uninked on my desktop with the rest of my works, but I digress.

Sorry for cropping art??? ? (also sorry to the poor soul who cleaned up the thread, thank you)
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No. 22749 ID: cef479

>>22737

But if he's already mentioned it then he HAS announced it to the world.

It's his own fault for bringing it up in the first place. If he doesn't want to share it then he shouldn't be flaunting details about it to everyone and getting buttmad when people get curious. And this is true for all artists who think this way too.

And when he does this, sure he's not obligated to give it to them when they DO get curious, but it's seriously not something to get so pissy over either. I'm sorry, but Cirr's not the victim here at all.

tl;dr Cirr has no one to be angry with but himself.
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No. 22751 ID: 2f4b71

>>22741
>I didn't expect anyone to ask to see the rest
If you post partial arts on the internets, internet people will want to see the rest. This is a constant. Adding a definitive 'I will not post the full image', with an optional reason (e.g. made for someone else) will effectively eliminate this. Otherwise the assumption will be that the image is a WIP towards something that will be posted.
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No. 22810 ID: c4e057

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