>>61915
Telling Peregrin we're going to go eat the souls he told us about isn't gonna help if we can't find out where those souls are =p

Due to the fact that there are parallel discussions going on along the same ends, I'm just going to post my response in the discussion thread, and link to it in the main thread. I'm doing it that way due to Jukashi requesting that discussions/arguments occur in the discussion thread.

-----

Okay, first of all, the use of Titan's Will. I've reviewed the gaining and use of Moon Power, and it seems to me that gaining titan's will causes an increase in soul fire, while expending the titan's will does not.

Titan's Will Gained
>>194720 to >>194725
>>213360 to >>213361
>>405260 to >>405263


Titan's Will Spent
>>195051 to >>195053
>>208242 to >>209202
>>214068 to >>214385
>>405261
>>409522 to >>410751, special note >>410751

The second, and last examples of spending TW seem to be the most illustrative, as the others were done either as a part of gaining TW, or while our Soul Fire was at full. In these two example no increase occurs in the soulfire when we expend TW.

As such, if there is any risk of being discovered due to use of soulfire, it would be due to gaining TW, not expending it. Further, Wordblood said in >>409526
>"Beyond that, though, a Feeding Soul would also assist with the recovery and management of magical Power, and may even be able to do something about this troublesome Soul Fire of yours."

So there might not be a problem with the Soul Fire, even if Saulanna does consume a spirit (though if we decide to risk it, I'd recommend going with one of the lower-powered spirits available).

Also, recall that Jukashi said in >>18322 that "Efficiency of Consumption would reduce the light show that comes with it, and provide an additional measure of Titan's Will each time a soul is absorbed".

If we create this Feeding Deva, then we will have both Wordblood, and the feeder, both with Efficiency of Consumption 2. The "Light show" should be decreased in power, particularly for less potent spirits.

As such, using Titan's Will mid-conversation should be safe, in general. Creating the Feeding Deva, on the other hand, is an involved and possibly painful process, and so should only be done when we have a few minutes to recover, at least.

-----

As to the question of contacting Perigrin surreptitiously, keep in mind that if Saulanna is sending instructions to her vassal, he need not communicate back in order to follow those instructions, unless communicating back is a part of them. If she tells him to get her out of the conversation, and take her to a secure location, and bring her the least secure ghost, he would attempt to do so, unless doing so would be disastrous for a reason he can't communicate back. In that case, lack of compliance is it's own communication.

At the very least, we can tell him to aid our own clumsy attempts to make a temporary withdrawal, in order to regroup. Besides, I think that it would be nice to let Wordblood communicate (which seems a part of his purpose) with others besides us, directly, though only if they already know, or we want to show his existence. It might also help to smooth some future situations over.

The only downside that I see to this is that if we want to do this and make the Feeder Deva, we couldn't raise Saulanna's Soul Force back to 3 without her consuming a spirit.

-----

Regarding the attempt to get Saulanna out of the conversation with the others, and my reference to accusations being used against us: Each Moon Hero soul empowers a human multiple times, and while some may have memories of past lives, these are new beings. Given the age ranges given, it's certain that neither of these Moon Heroes personally fought in the Usurpation, yet Akatrina is treating the failures of the Usurpation, and what lead up to it as belonging to them. To be logically consistent, she must be similarly blaming her own Moon Hero partner, and Saulanna for the part their previous incarnations played, even if she has "nothing personal against Moon Heroes". These are all conclusions we can reach from the information that has been portrayed in character.

While this hasn't been revealed in character yet, the Silver Pact was formed after the usurpation, and many of it's factions recognized the previous failures, and based new philosophies on avoiding them. Further, they did NOT expend all of their resources fighting the Deathlords, nor did they spend all of that time building up power and nothing else. They were battered by the Baloran Crusade more than perhaps any other group of Exalts, and were an intrinsic part of turning back that tide. They also were the first line of defense against fair folk incursions before and after that, and were also fighting escaped demons, realm and sidereal forces seeking to kill them, AND the Death Lords all at once, while attempting to build up their power bases.

The fact that there are still Moon Heroes at all, or a creation to Defend is testament to their prowess, especially when opperating out of the paradigm they were created with in mind, where they were supporting and supported by the other exalt types. I hope to see some of this come up in Askalaff's rebuttals, as this information severely undercuts the validity of Akatrina's arguments, and Askalaff seems studious enough to know all of that.

-----

Finally, as to the Dragon's Shadow. The wyld is a dangerous and chaotic place, wherein Unshaped monstrosities dwell. The Titans created Creation as a sanctuary from these very same creatures. As such, saying that the Ebon Dragon did not flee one well-known set of dangers he could plan around, in order to exist among unknown dangers is not a statement of new-found courage. Further, it is in his nature to betray, and it is difficult to betray chaos, for most of the creatures in deep chaos are not going to be around, or remember long enough to be betrayed. Those that are likely see stories of betrayal as a kind of game, and a favor. It would be difficult for him to slake his thirst for true betrayal in the deep chaos.

He has set up a new sun, which he may be able to use to give himself more flexibility in defining what he opposes. He has also taken the shadowy underworld, full of strife, and decay as his domain, which is in line with the worst of his nature both before and after he was locked away in Malfeas. He knew he could not take Yu Shan, and creation was more of a gamble. Taking the underworld better fit his nature, and made it more likely that he would not be opposed on additional fronts, as he would have been had he tried to take creation.

And his relationship with the titans? The main reason that the other Titans put up with him was that despite being a dickish betrayer, he was useful. Also, if you were the one he betrayed most recently, you were not in a position to oppose him, while if you were not, he just did you a service by bringing one of the other titans lower than your own status. He used these aspects to play the other Titans against each-other and keep his own position secure.

There is an ancient adage. "To fool your enemies, you must first fool your allies." This could easily apply to the relationship that The Ebon Dragon has with Akatrina. It is in his nature to betray, and fooling her into trusting him in a way he should not be trusted may well be the way he is betraying her personally.

I love our infinite language ability.

In the previous chapter wordblood said that
> Knowing his True Name, you will be able to use your magic on him wherever he goes.
Does this mean we can use Voice in the Dark to send Peregrin a message over any distance? Or does the "Saulanna must be able to see them" requirement override that? How does magic on one's true name work?

>>62123

She can send him a message from anywhere.

we can send a message to ANYONE we can SE. but for people we know the true name of we can send one from ANYWHERE. basically the name knowing is THAT big of an upgrade.

There seems to be this whole morality discussion in teh quest for some reason, perhaps it should be over here instead?
My take on it is this, We are a Lunar, our primary objective at all times is to survive, screw everybody else if it comes to it, besides, judging by how the last ghost made our intrepid hero sick with the mere knowledge of their skills, these people arn't exactly saints.

>>62173
At any rate, it's a discussion for another time. Right now, we are basically screwed if we don't get at least enough TW to do that multi-part plan to create a feeder soul. One should be enough, since the only reason we don't have enough now is because we spent the 1 to make the Voice in the Dark ability.

>>62173
Indeed, this would be the place to have that discussion, but unless the one person who keeps riling that discussion up comes here to discuss it, any answer we settle on here will not be lasting.

That said, if anyone wants some more info about how the various souls work in the Exalted setting, I'd be happy to provide the mechanics.

>>62211
To clarify, we actually have enough Titan's Will at the moment to create the Feeder Deva. We simply don't have enough to increase Saaulanna's Soul Force back to 3 afterward. But the plan it's self, includes that, and yes, it would take only 1 very minor member of the slavers to restore us to that point in the plan. In fact, Wordblood's Efficiency of Consumption ability gives an extra dot of Titan's Will for each consumed ghost. If we persue this after we already have the Feeder Deva, who will also have this ability, and it's own feeding purpose, then we may well get even more.

As a result, we can afford to spend one more point of TW on the creation of the Feeding Deva than the minimum Wordblood explained.

Copying Wordblood's feeding abilities to the new Feeding Deva costs a single TW, we copy his (or, possibly, Saulanna's) abilities relating to civilization, culture, and ettiquite. This would help to cement the element of the Feeder Deva that the group seems to be leaning toward. We might even be able to copy over our ability to be stealthy, when it comes to how the Feeding Deva eats, since one of the ways that Wordblood has said this Deva might help us is by fixing the "Soul Fire" problem... at least when it comes to the feeding.

>>62231
I didn't say we couldn't make the deva - I said we didn't have enough to do the PLAN to create a feeder soul, which includes raising it back to 3. The fact Wordblood brought it up at all tells me that raising it again will help in some way - otherwise it makes more sense to conserve our TW until we have both the feeder deva AND more will to throw around. Given we have no real way to quickly gain TW at the moment, raising it to 3 isn't a small investment - judging from the Voice in the Dark ability, we could've gotten another ability or two in addition to the voice.

This is mostly speculation, but i assumed raising it back to 3 was a significant part of that plan since we were so low on TW and we had no way of knowing how we would get our next batch or what the most useful expenditures of said will would turn out to be in the near future.

>>62234
I did not mean to imply that you did not know that. I simply thought that some readers in general might not be aware of the difference between the plan as a whole, and simply creating the Feeder Deva.

It seems like having a higher Essence than any of the other Devas, while not the totality of what determines Saulana as the main Deva, helps to cement that fact. That is, indeed, an important consideration. It also improves out over-all potency as far as resisting some effects are concerned.

However, it is also my stance that having the Feeder Deva is one of the best options open to us at the moment, for the following reasons.

1. It most likely serves short term needs by giving us yet another resource to help us resist mental influence.

While it is possible that the Deva will come into being with less ability to help us than we'd like, I don't find it at all likely that it will not be of any use at all.

Making our skills with culture and ettiquite explicitly a part of the Deva to start with will maximize it's possibility of being useful to us in the short term, I think.

2. It will maximize Saulanna's gains of power through feeding, and also allow her to gain power without feeding.

If we want to continue to gain in power without feeding on ghosts, we're basically in a "Rats of Nihm" situation. Short term we're grabbing more, in order to establish our ability to do without grabbing any.
There is also the possiblity of consuming written works, but given that the largest source of written works is currently unaviailable, that's not really a possibility right now.

However if we have a choice between having ghosts copy down the library for us to consume the copy, and consuming those ghosts, long term, I'll argue for the former over the latter.

3. If we do continue to eat ghosts, it would be a good idea to get as much out of them as possible, and to minimize the flare of Soul Fire from doing so. Wordblood said that the Feeder Deva might help with that. I think that choosing it's nature well, and giving it further abilities at the start related to that element/purpose would maximize that chance.

So, in my analysis, the 3 reasons for creating the Feeding Deva in the first place are to remove a vulnerability, improve our long-term gain of power, and to improve our ability / remove a disability in social combat, which is important in the short term.

If we do decide to go with the Feeder Deva, then we should maximize it's utility toward these 3 reasons for picking it. It is my opinion that choosing the element of "culture", and granting it copies of our (or Wordblood's) social abilities would maximize the Feeding Deva's utility toward these objectives.

I think it would also help to minimize what downsides, if any, we do experience from creating one.

If I am over-looking something, or there is another objective to persue in creating this Feeding Deva, I would like to hear this information.

>Lack of Titan's Will
Since we only lack one point, we could just delay copying Ease of Consumption onto the new soul until after we get more.

On that note, suggesting we design our Feeding Soul specifically to solve our immediate problem is unwise. It's going to be a fundamental part of our personality, and we need to approach it from that perspective, creating one that reflects what Saulanna wants to become and what "consuming" means to her. We've already got a soul that's specialized in social interaction, so if we need help with that, we can expand on Wordblood's abilities; we don't need to make a whole new soul just for it.

>>62250
Hmm. An interesting proposition, however the point that goes to that would also copy over Efficiency of Consumption. Coppying those two over was described as a part of the things Wordblood described as being bound together.

>>409526
>"a single measure to safely divide off part of your soul, another for me to copy my own feeding enhancements over, and finally 2 more to bring it all together and breathe life into the new spirit."

If we don't copy those over, I'm not sure if it would be a Feeding Deva at all, let alone a very good one.

As for your other point, I am not suggesting that we make it merely for our short-term gain. That is merely one of 3 objectives we are seeking to persue, and it is my opinion that we can satisfy all 3 quite well with a single action. Observing and considering one objective does not preclude fulfilling the other two.

I am, rather, arguing that we should not reduce our long term capability to take an action that would only serve our short term needs, but cut off longer term growth.

I have yet to hear any reasons why choosing an element of "Culture" would be a bad choice, long term.

>I have yet to hear any reasons why choosing an element of "Culture" would be a bad choice, long term.
Really, to me, it seems like a more narrow choice than civilization, with possible weakness in that in encompasses things that aren't actually useful (see Saulanna's problem when we brought up table manners- too much information, and not enough of it applicable).

>>62256
That linked to /questdis/. Here's how you link cross-board:
>>/quest/409526
>"a single measure to safely divide off part of your soul, another for me to copy my own feeding enhancements over, and finally 2 more to bring it all together and breathe life into the new spirit."
Ah, right. I remembered it as being one point each.

>I have yet to hear any reasons why choosing an element of "Culture" would be a bad choice, long term.
Because it doesn't fit the concept of a feeding soul at all. It's an attempt to accomplish two unrelated goals with the same action, and the result is awkward and doesn't reflect Saulanna's personality.

My suggestion:
Jukashi, make a new quest thread every time people go discussing things that should be in here.

Eventually, even the stupidest fucks will get it. Plus, their stupid discussions get hidden away in the archives.

You should understand; you are dealing with trolls and you need to be heavy handed!

>>62301
*sigh*
'Troll' and 'moron', despite common belief, are two different things

That doesn't change anything.

>>62319
Yes it does. Trolling is done on purpose - moronic behavior will continue even if Jukashi makes a new thread.

>>62256
>I have yet to hear any reasons why choosing an element of "Culture" would be a bad choice, long term.
It more closely overlaps with Wordblood's "Communication" and lacks many of the large-scale utility purposes of "Civilization", in my opinion. The latter should let us construct and control cities, realign ley lines, warp terrain to become more controlled and hospitable- all sorts of things which don't directly involve people at all. It's also more narrow in what it would let us harvest energy from, in my opinion.

Not saying it's a bad choice, I just don't think it's as good.

Just so that people know; Saulanna's personality traits, including her Heart's Desire, Mal/Affections and Virtues, are not decided by direct suggestion. Such things develop based on the cumulative effect of her actions and the motivations she had for those actions.

The players are still responsible for them, but they aren't as controllable. A few other things are influenced this way as well.

>>62370
Oh, so we can't increase Dis or Det using TW? Good to know!

>>62370
Is this a statement that we can only wait for them to naturally appear, and can't prompt their appearance in any fashion? I would have expected that some time spent talking with someone with heavy social magics could help someone decide on or even change their Heart's Desire and build or destroy Mal/Affections, though Virtues might be a little trickier. Could help with building resolve to follow the precepts of a specific Virtue, at least.

I'm partial to just eating Noise.

I was thinking about how we should probably diversify with our new deva, and it occurred to me... If devas can have themes like Fear, what if we make our feeding soul a deva of Will?

On a somewhat unrelated note, are we unable to make a deva with a theme if that theme is already taken by someone else? For example, does the existence of a Darkness deva in the Ebon Dragon prevent us from making our own Darkness deva?

Huh. Feeds off the will of others, feeds by strengthen our will, feeds through acts of will... a creature of will.

The possibility are interesting. Honestly, I like that more than any suggestion I've heard since civilization. Possibly even more so.

>>62376
You're forgetting that the element is more than just what the feeder "eats". It's what they make, work with, are. Noise has all kinds of problematic implications (it's more than just sound- it's non-useful sound, bad data, etc) and might overlap too much with Wordblood (words- speech) or worse, conflict with him (communication and empty noise are kind of polar opposites!).

>>62380
Okay. So far we have:
Civilization
Will

Any other suggestions? I'll add it to a list for when we make the soul if it gets suggested and backed up by at least two different posters, and then we can choose from those.

Sound like a plan? =3 Hope i don't sound pretentious.

I've done quite a bit of thinking on it, and the most suitable element for a Feeding Soul would be:

Desire.

First, let us define "consumption". To Saulanna, it means not to destroy, but to make a part of herself, subject to her will. With this in mind, Desire fits nearly every feeding-related action she has taken:

She consumes to protect Desire. Her first victim was the mobster who invaded her mind and tried to mentally dominate her. Saulanna devoured him to protect her own will.

She consumes her own desire. When her urges threatened to consume her, she restrained them and made them subject to her rational mind.

She consumes others through their Desire. Or rather, she offered such a choice to Peregrin, but he refused. While Saulanna hasn't yet convinced anyone to willingly be absorbed by her, such an act would be perfectly suited to her character.

And if you're willing to get abstract about it, She consumes others' Desires to see them fulfilled. In other words, accepts the personal quests of others. Like when she decided to help Gevin reconnect with his love.

A deva of NPC sidequests? Seems kind of meta, and it puts us at the disadvantage of being subject to the desires of others, doesn't it?

...also, if we go feeder of desire, I think we end up veering dangerous close to taking the succubus route. I mean, c'mon, we're already a lunar here. Put those together and...

>>62391
Please, this is tgchan, I'm sure we can explore the more abstract aspects of desire and handle the cruder parts with delicacy, good taste, maturity, and tact.



Holy fuck I can't believe I managed to type that with a straight face


Seriously though, pretty sure we can keep from becoming a total slutbag, especially if Saulanna decides she doesn't want to. Look how long Overlord managed to hold out against the hug menace.

>especially if Saulanna decides she doesn't want to
The thing is, the devas become part of our personality gestalt. If we make desire a core part of our personality, she's gonna want it. I mean, "wanting" is pretty much the definition of desire.

Honestly, it just seems like it has the potential to be difficult to manage, with lots of potential complications and downsides. There are useful applications for manipulating/feeding off/creating/etc desire, especially in a social way, but I'm kind of not sure they're worth it, or that's really the way we want to steer Saulanna.

I think a feeder of Moonlight or Light or Shadow or something like that would fit us best.

Hmm. Perhaps we can be a titan attuned to the phase of the moon? Closely tied to Luna but separate from her? And our souls would be configured to give us advantages depending on the moon's phase? A Feeder of Moonlight would give us faster TW generation while the moon is full, and presumably while our aura is flaring up.

Oh, and if we're voting about whether eating souls is a bad thing... I've already said that it's not and continue to stand by that. However, we should at least limit it to people who are in our way, or deserve to have their undead existence ended. Those who are contributing positively to the ghost civilization should be under our protection, not our prey. Regardless of who it is, however, if the choice is between eating the soul and letting it 'reincarnate', eating it is ALWAYS the better thing to do. We would merely be reclaiming raw materials, in that case, and eventually we can start producing those raw materials ourselves to give back to the world what we took. It's like farming. It's like eating an apple instead of leaving it on the ground to sprout a tree, then later magically creating apples or appleseeds or whatever to grow the trees that we prevented from growing. Don't think of it as destroying potential lives, but borrowing them to earn interest on.

Civilization
Desire
Will

>>62390
I'd like to point out real quick that we don't actually know that's Gevin's love - the impression I got when i read through the archive was 'close friend'.

And no, I'm not going to repost the list every time something new makes it onto said list - just when i make a post so I can easily find it again.

>>62380
bad choice of words, i didn't intend for those connotations of noise. I meant sound, but was basing this off a half remembered and evidently wrong idea that there was a choice between "feeding on ___" and "feeding by spreading ___"

rather than the sexual connotations of "desire" we could go with "want" but it would KINDA risk completely eliminating her self-control.

What about "stories"? It's like a much more LUNARY version of "knowledge"

...Nobody seems to have gotten the main point of what I was getting at with the Will suggestion (though Will is also useful for a lot of other things like social combat and not going insane).
Consider that it would be a titanic deva of will, and then remember what it is we want this soul to generate. Titan's Will

>>62396
Moonlight has the problem of limited growth potential, as unless we do some crazy stuff to the cosmos the amount of moonlight in the world will be more or less in a fixed range.

>>62403
Stories would have a much higher risk of overlap with communication that knowledge, as stories are as much about the telling as what is told.

>>62406
There's a fixed amount of practically everything, dude. The feeder soul gets better at generating TW when we give it TW. Having it attuned to moonlight would just give a bonus depending on how much moonlight is around. It's a modifier, and that's all you can ever hope for in an element.

My complaint about tying a deva to the moon in any way is that we're already dependent on the moon. It's a doubling down- yes, it will make certain strengths stronger, but it will make any weaknesses or dependencies on / related to the lunar cycles all the more pronounced.

I'd rather diversify than double down.

As far as the feeding soul's element goes, count me in for Knowledge, Stories, Books, Libraries, or anything in that vein.

I dunno if it necessarily matters whether Saulanna eating a soul is "evil" or not.

If Evil is an arbitrary matter of perspective in Exalted, then why are we even worrying about it in the first place, or allowing it to inform our decisions?

If Evil is an objective thing in Exalted, then when we get powerful enough, we can use our Primordialhood to tweak the calibration of the Shinma here or there, to make eating souls objectively Good instead of Evil, and then we'll be a retroactive saint.

No way we can lose!

>>62419
That isn't how systems of morality work. Being moral is an end in itself rather than a a set of rules to be rules-lwayered.

As an example of a similar concept, suppose we were to say that blowing stuff up is cool*. Coolness is not an objective standard, the lack thereof will not send us to lame-hell, and we could theoretically alter the universe to make not-exploding cool, but all of that is aside from the point. We want to do cool things like exploding stuff simply because it is cool, not for some reason that depends on it being cool.**

* extra points for walking away slowly afterward
** You might ask why we should care about coolness or morality, but you could ask that question about any motivation, including survival.

So you're saying that, first, we have to alter the universe so that *is* how systems of morality work? And then change what Goodness is? That seems like it'll be a little bit more troublesome, but doable.

>>62422
What I meant is that altering the universe would be aside from the point, because if you want to do something than you have no reason to alter the universe to get out of doing it.

Unless you want to be able to do two mutually exclusive things. If you want to be Good and Eat Souls, and Eating Souls is Bad, then you can't do both. Solution? Change them so they aren't mutually exclusive.

Like, if you wanted to eat bacon all the time, but you also wanted to be skinny/healthy. Genetically engineer some bacon that's good for you! Now you get both things you want.

In this case, you're dealing with morality, so you have to alter the nature of morality. If Eating Souls equals Good, then you can Eat Souls and Be Good simultaneously. It's double the satisfaction.

Civilization
Desire
Will

>>62424
MORALITY IS NOT A DIET! It doesn't work like that!!

>>62426
Eater of Light has two votes as well

Knowledge and Time were two earlier suggested possibilities, as well. There may have been more.

But it is not quite soul decision time yet!

>>62426
Have a little optimism! If it doesn't already work like that, we just have to become powerful enough to force it to work like that. No biggie.

Choosing a Heart's Desire akin to "I must gain titanic power at all costs, regardless of the consequences." would go a long way to getting us there.

>Time
Yeah, but for some weird reason absolutely no one seemed to like the idea back when I made that suggestion. :p

Kinda cool you remembered, though.

>>62429
Trying to solve every problem by restructuring the universe's logic seems most likely to end in reducing the universe to incoherence. (And safely changing the universe so that you can safely change the universe is a circular causality situation that you need to already be in to get into. It would be like saying that we can get a time machine whenever we want by simply going back in time and giving it to ourself.)

>>62433

We won't know if we never try! Don't you want to see what the story will be like if we climb in power far too quickly to learn anything resembling restraint and just start mucking about with forces that aren't beyond our control, but are beyond our full understanding?

You can already live by a modern age 1st world moral code, think through your decisions, and make all the safe choices. Let Saulanna be a power hungry monster! It'll be entertaining.

>>62415
I kinda wanted to do it that way to show Luna that we are on her side as part of our intrinsic nature. As a pledge of loyalty a step beyond being Lunar Exalted.

>>62436
I can get behind this, as well as it being a possible way to control our hero flaring stuff.

>>62436
Yeah, and then it turns out that tells her and everyone else that we're a Titan and gives her even more of a hold over us and we're ultrafucked. Even if that doesn't happen, it makes us even more dependent on a single variable.

Time is good. Moonlight is terribad.

>>62435
Eh, 'causality falls everyone unexists' isn't really my thing.*
Besides, being careless will get us killed off before we can get anywhere near enough power to mess around with that stuff.

*(Ok, Evangelion was entertaining, but one of those was enough.)


>>62436
Personally I am worried it would look like we were trying to steal her shtick. As we just saw with Wordsblood, divine beings can be kind of touchy about that.

>>62406
well in that case we should maybe ASK wordblood if he'd be likely to feud with a stories soul

Civilization
Desire
Will
Moonlight

>>62427
>>62428
I was only adding things to the list suggested AFTER i started making the list and Civilization*, and Light (as far as i can tell) has had ONE supporter since then... not counting you =p

But i'll add it anyway, for now, and I'll go back through again and see if I missed anything else.

*Civ made it to the list in part because I agreed with it, someone else agreed with it and it was brought up again, and partly because I have a vague memory that it won the last debate.

EDIT-through-deletion: Actually, looking back, Light's never really defined as an element. The original suggestion was 'light or shadow or moonlight or something' and it never really gets reinforced. Moonlight gets critiqued a bit but i think only one poster actually supported it =/

>>62440
Oh, the schtick-stealing point is a good one. Making it more neutral, like just Light, would work to avoid that. That would also align ourselves with both Luna AND the Sun!

Unfortunately I feel like that might hurt our TW generation while we're in the shadowlands.

>>62444
I don't actually want to align ourselves with the beings that slaughtered and/or enslaved their creators and then took their opium den as their own while leaving the world to rot. We'll have to deal with them at some point and killing them is impractical, but that doesn't mean shaping our very being (which is what making more souls is) into a form of flattery is a good idea.

>>62457
This fella raises a good point. Just because we don't actively want to be hostile with Luna and the Sun doesn't mean we should bend over backwards or tailor our very being to suit them.

Honestly, our best hope of dealing with them is a strong bartering position, and a track record they'll respect.

>Time is good. Moonlight is terribad.
Woot! Time finally got some support.

Right now I'm leaning will over civilization, but I'd switch back to voting time in a heartbeat if I thought for a moment it had a chance of winning. Time based powers are all kinds of abusable.

Desire or (moon)light just come with way too many potential downsides or complications.

>>62457
The creators are dicks. True Fact.

(The Incarna are also dicks.)

(The Exalted Host are also dicks.)

And, in any case, what I am seeing from the Moonlight/Light Element is that Saulanna gains power from herself. That is, the Feeder Soul is most powerful, all things being equal, when Saulanna flares her Totemic Anima Banner. Which is not quite ideal; we do, after all, prefer to remain hidden, if I do not misjudge our actions. If we are to create a Feeder of Moonlight/Light, that would nudge Saulanna toward an overwhelming/unrestrained/unsubtle aspect as her Soul incentives acting while flaring her Totemic Anima Banner (or, spending lots and lots of MP).

The Incarna have nothing to do with that (barring Luna, who made the Exaltation Saulanna holds and from which derives power).

>>465195
Nope. I use 2 wi-fi networks, but I never dupe suggestions.

>>62460
I also post infrequently enough that I think I messed up quoting the main quest thread.
>>/quest/465195

Jukashi!!WzMJSzZzWx 2012/10/22(Mon)11:16 No. 62462 ID: 5bf190
File 135092981477.gif - (70.57KB , 649x446 , facepalmcombo.gif )

>>62458
>I'd switch back to voting time in a heartbeat if I thought for a moment it had a chance of winning
>I'd switch [...] voting [...] if I thought [...] it had a chance of winning
>tactical voting

Methinks I might try an Instant-runoff system.

...there's non-tactical voting?

Forgive me, but a lifetime under time American political system has somewhat skewed my perspective. (You don't vote for what you want, you look at the only two people who have a prayer of winning and vote for the one you hate less!).

...not that I've reached anywhere near that level of cynicism here. There's a difference between "picking the better of two evils" and "respecting it when other suggesters aren't interested in your ideas" (even snarkily :p).

Some kind of formalized run off might be a good idea though. We've been bouncing ideas for elements around for weeks without really getting anywhere.

Civilization
Desire
Will
Light
Time

I'm not a fan of time - ignoring how abusable it is, how would a FEEDING deva feed off or spread time? Would it just be really efficient? Would it cause time to slow down/speed up around it?

>>62462
What's an instant-runoff system?

>>62464
OR we can keep coming up with new elements until we hit on one people really like

>>62458
Time is cool, but when choosing an element for a feeder soul it doesn't seem right to me. The question here is "What do we want to make Saulanna stronger, and which she will thus want to make stronger in turn?" Time... isn't really something we can establish positive feedback with, at least not in any simple way that I can see unless we start tearing up the rules of reality. I would be willing to support it for the element of a lord deva with a different purpose- we certainly have enough things that we could use souls for!- but not as our feeder soul.

Likewise, it's for this reason that I consider civilization such an excellent choice for the feeder soul- Saulanna can easily and actively either seek out or build up large centers of civilization, and by doing so build her own power and gain public relations points.

Will isn't a terrible choice by this metric, but it's not great either; as it's a quality that people possess Saulanna will have to work to shape the personalities and decisions of those around her into certain patterns in order to cultivate a supportive environment for herself. Maintaining them in a high-will state, particularly on a large scale, seems like a huge job because will isn't a characteristic that people naturally possess in large amounts. We'd have to basically change how people think and act in order to really cultivate a proper feeding ground.

>moonlight
You know what? If we want better control over our moon-powers, we shouldn't even be using the feeder-Deva for this. We should take our hero's soul, dump it full of titan's will, grant it sentience, and promote it from passive spirit-symbiote to a full on Deva. Bam.

>Time
The initial idea for this was that is would maximize any passive feeding / energy generation if we wanted to minimize getting titan's will from non-ing souls. So long as time passes, we have an energy source. In addition active consumption of time could be used offensively- say, consuming parts of the past the alter the present (like Balefire, say). Manipulation of time could be especially potent in the shadowlands (with the broken calender and all) or when used in conjunction with moon-based powers (if we can hack the time of day or lunar phase). Then of course there's normal time-based shenanigans, of course.

>>62466
I have no problem with us coming to a consensus. I just don't see it happening smoothy or easily- the field is too wide open, and we've got too many ideas.

>>62467

Feeding on/through the Element is a significant part of the choice, but it's not the only important aspect to it. You could come up with some interesting tricks with the right combinations. For example, a Feeding deva based on Time might (eventually) have the power to undo TW purchases and reclaim what was spent on them, which would otherwise be impossible. Things like that.

>>62465

Instant runoff voting is where you vote by listing your preferences. For example you could list "Desire 1, Will 2, Civilization 3"; then I count up all the first-preference and, whoops, Desire came in last place. So then I eliminate Desire, and your Desire-first vote will "run off" and be given to Will. I check who's in last place again, take them out, reassign the votes, and so on until there's only two contenders and we have a winner.

How about the element of Secrets?
Finding them, keeping them, detecting them--everyone has secrets, and many locations have them as well.

>>62472
That ability is really nice... being able to suddenly retroactively reallocate our resources would be an exceedingly potent tool. Although I remember reading somewhere that Luna has a trick very like that where she becomes/channels the abilities of one of the other moon gods that might have been but she devoured. If that's so, then with a Titanically-reinforced Moon Hero soul we might be able to do something of the kind already, though as we haven't devoured any other possible Saulannas perhaps not. Maybe if we ate another Titan...

The ability to use civilizations as nation-sized power generators calls to me, though. As does being able to spread and sculpt them as we choose, and being able to devour them should the situation call for it.

In addition, the concern that an Element which is alien to Saulanna's current mortal perspective will begin to alienate her from that perspective exists; the farther our Lord souls' elements are from the human condition the more alien Saulanna's overall mindset will inevitably become, at least as I understand it. Whatever element we choose will become a core part of who she is- I'd rather not go with anything too abstract and fundamental to reality until we've got another soul or two in place to help counterbalance how much alien perspectives influence our thinking. There must be a dozen things that we could key Time to if we want ridiculous hax out of it; it doesn't have to be this, even if stripping the Titan's Will out of our past uses of it (a dozen or so Soul Force down the line) would be crazy good.

>>62477
I'd still like to pair stealth/secrets/deception/etc. with a protector-purposed deva.

>time feeder
>Allow Ashenzari style TW reskilling
Yes please! Who doesn't want Red Mage and time powers at the same time? Ultimate versatility and flexibility.

>secrets
Another idea that got debated a while back (one of the first few suggested elements, I think). If I remember right, the consensus-ish was to wait for our next deva to craft one specifically to deal with divinations, concealment, and stuff like that.

Another argument I would like to put forwards in favor of Will is that IIRC Creation contains heaps of beings with self-control abilities that are damaged, subverted, or otherwise manipulated by various curses. A notable example of this would be the lunars and solars, who have a tendency to go out of control.
Gaining abilities to effect or eventually negate that sort of thing would go a long way towards both our ability to effect Creation and give groups like the solars and lunars a major reason to be interested in our survival.

>>62478
We already do have (potential for) the ability to gain power from the existence and size of nations, from the fact that nations need (and are in many ways built on) communication.

Civilization
Desire
Will
Light
Time

>>62482
True but Wordblood isn't a Feeding Deva, so it doesn't really matter.

>>62472
Are we voting yet?

>>62487
Pretty sure we're gonna wait until Wordblood asks about things like the purpose and element.

>>62487
I assume we'll wait till the quest actually gets to the deva creation. For now we're just brainstorming ideas and trying to win each other over.

Element: Raccoons.

Now, hear me out. Surely, Lunars have some kind of raccoon-manipulating charms. But what would happen if we doubled up on that? The ability to put a titanic tint on the power to create, disseminate, devour, and control raccoons, combined with our own natural raccoon talents, could allow us to reach Squirrel-Girlian plateaus of eminence.

It won't warp us all that much, since we're already so heavily tied to raccoons. And raccoon-based powers won't look all that out of the ordinary for a Lunar to sling around, which might be important when we're just getting started in making our way in the world.

oh my god, raccoon girl, that is freakishly brilliant.

Civilization
Desire
Will
Light
Time

>>62495
I don't wanna eat raccoons =( Couldn't we just stipulate that the feeder soul LOOKS like a raccoon? Wordblood did mention we'd be picking things besides the element, and i do remember bringing up a raccoon with horn-rimmed glasses... as a librarian, admittedly, but still!

What about a Feeder soul of Preservation? The act of protecting something from forces that would erode or damage it. Be it knowledge, wealth, peace, health, civilization, or delicious delicious jams. It's an activity basically every major player takes part in; preserving the status quo, if nothing else. Specifically in Saulanna's case, she has an interest in preserving her autonomy.

It's a soul that focuses on defense and is disposed towards resource management, which is ideal for us.

Plus, you know, jam. Everyone likes jam.

>>62507
Oh! How about a Feeder soul of Change? =D We already shapeshift, we intend to change the god's minds about titans, we could respec ourselves (for lack of a better phrase) more easily to make our various tasks easier (remember the clifface from thread 1? We could, for instance, up our agility if we came to a similar situation again) We could change how our TW gets spent (a la the Time deva) etc etc...

...Or we could save that one for a combat deva or something =/

>Raccoon (eating) Diva
Seems an absurd waste of potential, to me. And really, we could accomplish the same thing by uplifting our hero's soul.

Really, consider, what happens if we promote the passive exaltation Luna attached to us to a full on Deva? (Pretty much anything we could consider falling under the domain of the moon, combat, change, etc. could theoretically fall under this Deva's jurisdiction).

>preservation
Doesn't that go against our very nature? We're a new Titan, born in a way nothing else has been before- a strange hybrid of Exalt, Titan, and Human. By our very existence we change the world order. And the world is hardly in the best state of things as it is- our goal should not be to preserve the old ways, but to better the new. To say nothing of the fact that to be Lunar is to embrace change on a pretty fundamental level.

Making preservation core to our identity... almost sounds like castrating ourself to survive. I think it would bite us in the ass, long run.

>>62508
Whoops, I deleted that post.

For anyone wondering what we're rambling about, it was basically saying that just because many preserve the status quo, doesn't mean we would have to or that it would stifle our growth or adaptability. We could even enact drastic world-spanning changes without betraying the concept, so long as we preserved the world of old in history. Like Indiana Jones! Or Brainiac!

>>62509
There's nothing saying that we have to choose any one time, place, or thing over any other in what we preserve, or that we can't do so if we wish. Tossing away all that has come before to create anew is foolish anyway. There's some pretty cool stuff that exists, or has existed. Having an interest in keeping it around doesn't mean opposing the creation of anything new. And there's also nothing saying that we can't preserve the past in the form of histories and memories, rather than literally maintaining its unchanging existence forever.

Yes it does dispose ourselves away from change a bit, but that isn't too far off from the path we're taking anyway. The consensus seems to be against stirring things up, at least at this point.

But I see "Preservation" as more of a defense of specific things than a blanket rejection of change anyway.

>>62511
>brainiac, learns everything there is about a planet then BLOWS IT THE FUCK UP

yeah no..

the idea of somehow turning the exalt shard into a deva is interesting.

>>62512
Oh come one, I was obviously joking about the Brainiac thing. Jeeze.

>>62505
Eating raccoons to gain their power is just a natural part of the cycle. Raccoon Girl giveth and Raccoon Girl taketh away.

Besides, imagine titanic raccoon manipulation. Like, Raccoonbending. Riding on cresting waves of raccoons. Ascending on squeaking pillars of furry death, lashing our foes with long-range raccoon whips. Raising raccoon walls to stop the deadly flow of magma from an erupting volcano, saving the townspeople caught nearby. Breathing burning clouds of raccoons when our anger is aroused. So on.

>>62516
You. You're having too much fun. Stop that. This discussion is for ultra-serious, miserable squabbling only.

Raccoons are too ordinary.

I suggest one of the following in no particular order:

Water bears
Wolverines
Honey badgers
Ferrets
Axolotls

>>62516
>>62523

...Ya know what?

I still don't think it should be our Feeding Deva.

But that mental image is just too awesome+funny to NOT try for. So yeah, I'll put it on the list. (the guy who suggested it, one other guy and me - that's three)

Civilization
Desire
Light
Time
Raccoon
Will

... I still think that for this one we should go either Desire or Civilization.

>>62527
Water bears?

... Those microscopic things that can survive the vacuum of space?

...

Do we even know if those EXIST in exalted? Do we even know if Saulanna or Wordblood have any way of KNOWING what they are?!

wait, is there even SPACE in exaclted? could we be the titan to MAKE space?

>>62534
Shards of the Exalted Dream somewhat implies that Creation was an entire universe, with space, and galaxies, and planets, and stuff, prior to the Primordial War. However, all of the fucking doomsday weapons, and reality-warping clusterfucks, and various conceptually-destructive fuckeries, utilized by both the Primordials and the Chosen of the Gods, ended up eventually reducing all of reality to a single sad little world for the Exalted to crown themselves king of in the aftermath.

It's not canon, certainly. But it's implied, and I kinda like it.

>>62538
I DON'T LIKE IT.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will

Is it even POSSIBLE to uplift our hero's soul? =/ the impression I've gotten from what little I know of exalted suggests that the exaltation:

A) Is more like a computer than a person - ie, separating it from us would do nothing of consequence
B) Is a symbiote, and therefore MUST be attached to the soul of the exalted in order to both remain in the body and give the user power.

>Is it even POSSIBLE to uplift our hero's soul? =/
No idea! I think it's certainly interesting enough to consider, until Wordblood stops by to tell us we're being crazy again.

>Is more like a computer than a person - ie, separating it from us would do nothing of consequence
>Is a symbiote, and therefore MUST be attached to the soul of the exalted in order to both remain in the body and give the user power.
I don't see it as separating the hero's soul from us- I see it as more closely integrating it. And a self-aware superbeing attacked to our soul, powering us up, sounds more powerful and versatile than the seemily passive one we have now.

Of course, there are all kinds of risks. We could break our exaltation (no more moon powers!). Messing with it could alert Luna (although the sun didn't notice when solar souls were being hacked to make death heros). Or... our new lunar soul might be upset with the situation it finds itself in. (You made me part of a Titan?! I live to hunt you/us! WhathaveyoudoneWhathaveyoudoneWhathaveyoudone...).

>>62599
>(although the sun didn't notice when solar souls were being hacked to make death heros).

As far as we know. =p

I still think it's a bad idea. The Hero's soul is already a part of us - uplifting it would do little besides put us at even more risk than before, and possibly make it harder for us to use MP.

Really, we're too ignorant right now to make an accurate risk/reward assessment. And I would like to hear what Wordblood thought of the idea before trying it.

It's not an immediate concern though- we definitely want to create the feeder deva before anything else. Energy management and production is a big concern.

>>62598
>Is it even POSSIBLE to
Whenever you want to ask something like this, see Jukashi's comment at >>18218:
>But if Saulanna has enough Titan's Will, she can pretty much do... anything.
>If she has enough.

Things can be "impossible right now", "inefficient", "extremely difficult", or "incredibly stupid", but nothing is impossible for Saulanna in the absolute sense.

Mucking about with our hero soul in particular strikes me as something to worry about much, much later, though. Perhaps after we're no longer dependent upon it as the primary source of our power.

>>62603
I would like to point out that, when we asked Wordblood about the tattoos, his reply was "It... might be possible?" implying that it also might NOT be. Hence, there are some things BEYOND a titan's (or at least OUR) ability and since the Hero's soul was created by a titan specifically to FIGHT titans, then I'd say the idea that we CAN'T manipulate this thing at all is certainly possible.

Civilization
Desire
Light
Raccoon
Time
Will