>>25083
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=007163
it's pretty much confirmed it's him. No doubt there.

>>25090
true, but the small uncertainty comes form this bieng written by andrew "Red herring" hussie and the fact that aranea has never explained exactly how she knows all this information (correct me if im wrong and she has stated. also it could be down to her sylph of light status)

http://chiarobee.tumblr.com/post/53992188514
So someone made some absolutely fantastic redglare sprites.

Another (Stupid) thought occurs.
Could caliborn be falling for a Red herring ploy?
i mean, the thing with jake is that everyone, himself included, put's him on a pedastle and expects him to act in a certian way (confidont, boyfriend, adventurer ect) and each time they are dissapointed when he fails to live up to thier image of him.
LE is fixated on the image of Jake bieng his final fight, and is completely ignoring john, who by total accident has now removed himself (apparentley) from the controll of paradox space.
Is it jake or john LE should fear?
Will caliope recive a happy ending?
Will dirk ever sort his shit out?
And whats up with that creepy ass wolfs head?
Join us next time for the answer to None of these questions!

Dave hasn't used any time powers at all since he reached God Tier, has he?

...wait a minute, as God Tier, doomed clones could only die via the two established circumstances. Therefore, time travel as a God Tier is kinda shitty because you can't usually even create doomed clones because of how the universe works, and would have to rely almost entirely on closed loops, which suck for combat.

Dave must have some other way of weaponizing time as God Tier to make up for this...

>>25207
Aradia didn't seem to have problems getting doomed timeline clones to fight Jack with.

>>25214
She wasn't a God Tier when that happened. The only time she fought Jack as a God Tier she just froze him in place then used him as a portal to the Green Sun.

On second thought, being God Tier would mean it's fairly easy to create closed loop clones, because all your killed clones will just come back to life and complete their loops.

Here's how you kick ass via time travel. Go back in time 30s. Join forces with yourself. You both go back in time another 30s. Now there's 3 daves 15min ago. Repeat for an hour. Now there's 120 daves all god tier, who can then go kick the bad guy's ass. The reason this doesn't cause a paradox is the first dave that goes back encounters all the other daves in his past an hour before the fight. Then he goes back before the fight and is dave #2. Then he goes back 30s and is dave #3. Repeat until he's the last Dave. Basically his timeline is folded like an accordion, but not broken.

You can reverse the process similarly, but why would you want to? With 120 alpha timeline daves you wouldn't even need a casting call for SBAHJ the moive.

>>25218
Um, no. If you change the timeline in a way that prevents your original self from time traveling, you are now in a new timeline and if you ever return to the original timeline you're a doomed clone. That's a bad thing for God Tier.

>>25220

That's the thing though, your original self isn't prevented from time travelling. They just magically have all these time clones to back them up, then afterwards begin the cycle by going back to be the second time clone. The second goes back to be the third, etc.

And God Tiers are immortal, so you could build up a lot of clones that way...

>>25231
Dude, the way that sequence was set up, the original dave goes back 30 seconds and convinces his earlier self to go back 30 seconds 30 seconds EARLIER, preventing him from going back 30 seconds at the proper time and creating the original clone. That's NOT a closed loop, that's a bunch of timelines stacked on top of eachother, and would actually be full of doomed clones.

True closed-loop time travel clone combat involves your clones always having been there, and you HAVE TO go back in time to live out what they went through. It's not even a choice you can make spontaneously. It's something Dave always saw coming.

>>25234

Yeah, that's what I mean. In normal linear boring chronological order, all the Daves can appear before Dave even considers making time clones. His decision to employ time clones comes after they are employed, effect coming before cause. That's what weird time shit is.

To get a better idea of this, Dave resolves to do one of two things: make time clones in the future, or kill Clover. Since the alpha timeline is always what works out best for Clover, Dave's time clones will appear. All the timelines where he decided not to make time clones, or never saw any time clones are doomed timelines that he never even visits. Clover's just a convenient macguffin for this strategy though, and it can quite well happen without him.

Frankly I wonder if LE will be defeated when he tries to kill Clover.

Was it ever specifically stated that highblooded trolls are more psychically resilient than lowbloods, or is that just something that lots of people assume?

Because the Serkets sure don't seem to have much trouble controlling them.

>>25347
Who else was controlled?

>>25348
Gamzee during this sequence, and the Amporas during the "Vriska gathering a ghost army" antics.

>>25347
>>25351
Well, by the time they've been dead for a while, especially Aranea, so it could be said they've had a lot of practice in mind controlling people.

I dunno, really. I'm just adding in more assumptions.

Well, that didn't seem particularly Heroic or Just.

Okay, Hussie is definitely just plain cheating to get out of corners he wrote himself into, now.

inb4 john fucks it all up.

>>25366
Seemed Just to me. She'd changed her alignment to Evil and was planning on having a great deal of the her friends and others killed, as well as trying to help Condy revive the troll race just so it could be enslaved.

Whether she's brainwashed or not, that's a just death.

>>25372
She was being mind controlled. It wasn't a Just death- Aranea directly manipulated the clock via an ability she really should not have. It would probably require a Prince of Life or Light to do what she did, not a Nymph. A Nymph heals, not kills or manipulates. It showed her eye affecting the clock somehow but according to Vriska all that does is let you see stuff/through stuff that you normally shouldn't be able to. Which also doesn't explain how she could tell Roxy was there without using her eye.

Hussie is just making up bullshit powers for her to have that solve his plot dilemmas as fast as possible.

>>25376

>It wasn't a Just death

Sure it was.

Fun fact: People bitched about Vriska's death not being 'just' either.

>It showed her eye affecting the clock somehow

No, it showed a flash of her eye and said 'lucky br8k,' it didn't show her actually do anything. She was just lucky (as a light player) that jade's death was decided to be just.

>Which also doesn't explain how she could tell Roxy was there without using her eye.

The dead trolls already know what happens at this point in the timeline, as evidenced by the fact that they know aranea isn't supposed to be there.

>Hussie is just making up bullshit powers for her to have

The only 'made up' power she has been shown to have is making Roxy fall asleep.

>>25378
Vriska was about to effectively kill everyone on the asteroid by her own choice, of course it was Just. Grimbark's actions didn't have anything to do with Jade. There's NO REASON for the clock to show Aranea's eye unless she had something to do with the decision, so she did.

The dead trolls do not actually know a whole lot about this timeline. Vriska sure as hell wasn't acting on future knowledge. How could they possibly know what happens? I think they just have some vague sense of how things are supposed to generally go, because their living space is in the Furthest Ring.

>>25379

>There's NO REASON for the clock to show Aranea's eye unless she had something to do with the decision, so she did.

The clock only stopped on Vriska because it got smashed by a crowbar. Events that lead to the clock stopping are just how paradise space works.

>How could they possibly know what happens?

Because Hussie is not a good writer?

>>25376
Im going to repeat myself for you.
>Whether she's brainwashed or not, that's a just death.

She was still planning on killing and enslaving countless people, or at least assisting with that and being okay with it. Whether she's brainwashed or not, that's a just death.

Also,Aranea couldn't have influenced the clock (as far as I know). Her control powers only work so far as living creatures. The eye showing up and the 'tough br8k' or whatever was probably just artistic choice, showing that she could at least see the clock stopping where it did, and was pleased with the outcome.

She does have the power to see things like that, after all. Probably. Hell, for all we know, she might just revive Jade and heal her, too, assuming she can.

>>25380
First off, it's paradox space, not paradise space.
Second, no, that was pretty clearly hussie fucking with us- actually you know what, I changed my mind. BOTH instances of "outside interference" with the clock are just Hussie throwing doubt into the equation to fuck with his readers. However, just like the crowbar, *it was outside interference*. Aranea did something. If she had not done anything, Hussie would've just had "Lucky Br8k" up there, or not anything at all. The eye showing up very clearly lays blame on Aranea. There is absolutely no narrative reason to put it there otherwise. Heck, even the "Lucky Br8k" lays blame on her.

>>25381
Aranea not legitimately being able to influence the clock is my entire point. Hussie is making up powers for her, like what they originally did with Superman.

>>25385

> However, just like the crowbar, *it was outside interference*.

No, it was in the Vriska case (which was warranted), but it wasn't necessarily in this case. You are assuming it was because you think that any of this bullshit storytelling is a change in the way the comic is worked and are mad about it. Everything in the comic has always worked like this. Nothing has changed. This is what homestuck has been for years.

>There is absolutely no narrative reason to put it there otherwise. Heck, even the "Lucky Br8k" lays blame on her.

Good Luck is a natural passive ability of Light players.

> Hussie is making up powers for her,

What power did she use to mess with the clock?

You just said yourself that the entire purpose of the clock scenes is just to fuck with the readers. And yet here you are, getting super worked up about it.

>>25386

Oh and while we're at it:

What is the full set of powers available to a Sylph of Light to begin with? You obviously know what it is intended to be, since you know that she used a power to actively force the clock to settle on just; and also know that it is a power that she 'shouldn't' have.

>>25385
You completely skipped over the point I was trying to make, didn't you?
I said that Aranea DOESNT have the power to influence the clock, so she DIDNT INFLUENCE THE CLOCK. The eye and the words were probably just ARTISTIC CHOICE or TROLLING, or even her EXISTING POWER TO SEE SHIT being used to SEE the clock but NOT influence it.

Sorry for the caps spam, but I really felt like you needed some help getting the point there.

>>25386
Hussie has established rules bit by bit, and EVERYTHING has followed established rules. Most things up until act 6 have been surprising because we didn't know the rules. Surprising events nowadays are mostly due to unexpected interplay of the various characters, not because something happened that we didn't know was possible before. An example of that would be the quest beds in the middle of Derse that allow players with dead dream selves to become god tier.

Good Luck isn't a passive ability of Light players, cmon. Light is the element of the "Most fortuitous path", and the only person who has powers that run that way is Vriska- she can "steal luck" from other people. Also, LUCK DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. There is literally no random chance in major events. Essentially, timelines in Homestuck have infrequent major branches but minor choices don't divert from the main timeline at all. Besides, if it was passive, her eye certainly wouldn't have shown up. Are you even thinking about this or just throwing out shit logic to be contrary?

As for how she did it, she messed with the clock with some bullshit troll psychic power linked to her eye, obviously. She already used some bullshit psychic power to topple a goddamn building.

>>25387
She is a Healer of Light. She heals *others* with the power of light or fortune or fate, or heals light/fortune/fate itself. It's a healy light/fate power. Anything that does not fall within that rather broad theme(for instance, keeping a God Tier dead by altering their fate) is something that cannot originate from her Role. Any other powers she has have to be due to her being a psychic troll with a freaky eye, and of course the ring she's wearing.

As a side note, I'm pissed off that Hussie is fucking up his writing, not about the fucking clock itself. That should be obvious. He pulled Aranea out of his ass so he could get himself out of the corners he wrote himself into with Jake and Jade.

Oh, one last thing... Aranea making Roxy fall asleep isn't anything new at all. Vriska did that LOTS of times to Jade.

>>25388
No, I saw your point. I disagree with it.

>>25389
We've seen players use their Class and Aspect abilities in separately from each other. Dave's the Knight of Time, which means he "exploits time as a weapon to protect others", but he's a good fighter even without time travel, and he's used time travel for things that don't involve fighting.

>>25389

>Hussie has established rules bit by bit, and EVERYTHING has followed established rules.

For someone who likes writing about homestuck so much, you sure don't pay much attention to it.

>Besides, if it was passive, her eye certainly wouldn't have shown up.

Why not? It sure was a lucky break for her that Jade's death was just. When has the vision eightfold symbol been shown for a reason other than perceiving something? It obviously isn't even involved with mind control since Vriska could already do it.

The vision eightfold was appearing to show that she was aware that things were progressing according to her plan.

>She is a Healer of Light. She heals *others* with the power of light or fortune or fate, or heals light/fortune/fate itself.

No, she's a sylph of light.

And while a sylph is a powerful healing class, she is also a powerful god-tier character. Idly destroying a nearby inanimate object with a gesture could well be something basically anyone can do at that point.

> He pulled Aranea out of his ass so he could get himself out of the corners he wrote himself into with Jake and Jade.

Wait, you actually think that this is the resolution of things? Oh my god that's so fucking rich.

>Vriska did that LOTS of times to Jade.

No scorpio symbol, so clearly it wasn't her psychic troll power.

>>25393
Name one thing that didn't work within established rules. John's current state doesn't count, as it's due to something that was stated to have reality-altering power.

The 7-fold eye has never just popped up out of nowhere before, sight-related or otherwise.

>No, she's a sylph of light.
Sylph is a HEALER class. There's no indication that god tier characters all get any sort of psychokinetic power. You're just making up shit now to be contrary.

>Wait, you actually think that this is the resolution of things?
Don't be a fucking jackass. Yes, it's the resolution of things- Jake is no longer a blubbering mess(and is powering up because of that), and Grimbark Jade is no longer a threat. Those are the TWO THINGS he wrote himself out of that I referred to.

Aranea not displaying her scorpio symbol when putting Roxy to sleep is probably just a demonstration of how good she is at psychic powers. It's not something that requires continuous effort, you know. It could also just be implied because WE ALREADY KNOW PSYCHIC TROLLS CAN DO THAT.

I think I am done with this stupid argument.

>>25395

>Name one thing that didn't work within established rules.

Everything.

You genuinely do not understand how homestuck works. Hussie doesn't establish rules and then follow them, he does things and then has characters exposit that the rules are what made that happen.

But since you just asked for one example: We were explicitly told that there was one quest bed, until we were told that there were also other quest beds later. And also things just plain worked differently for Aradia because exceptions.

> There's no indication that god tier characters all get any sort of psychokinetic power.

All God Tiers can fly, even if the players previously showed no indication of flight.

>Those are the TWO THINGS he wrote himself out of that I referred to.

Neither of which was solved by anything any more 'made up' than anything else that has ever happened in the story. You're just mad that a boring, terrible character is the one that was doing things at the time. Even by the narrowest interpretation based on what we were told a Sylph of Light could do, powering up Jake (for the moment, since this isn't permanent) is well within the bounds of her abilities. And crushing Jade with the building was just aesthetics, She was helpless and unconscious and could easily have been killed in basically any other way, but it wouldn't have been a wizard of oz joke.

>Aranea not displaying her scorpio symbol when putting Roxy to sleep is probably just a demonstration of how good she is at psychic powers. It's not something that requires continuous effort, you know. It could also just be implied because WE ALREADY KNOW PSYCHIC TROLLS CAN DO THAT.

She scorpio'd gamzee.

You seem to be confused here. Do you only think that the rules in Homestuck are consistent when it is convenient for you? Or are you just too angry about realizing that the comic's writing just isn't very good to make sense of your own arguments?

>>25397
>Everything
Except absolutely not everything. Yes, Hussie does tend to toss in new things and explain them later, but a lot of things happened because of rules laid out beforehand. Like for instance ascending to god tier in general, since you used that as YOUR example. Before anyone ascended, there were rules for it. The process was clearly described. The Derse quest beds weren't mentioned by the people that told us the rules because hey, guess what? THEY DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW ABOUT THEM. Neither group of players found out about the Derse quest beds before their timelines lost communication with eachother.

>You're just mad that a boring, terrible character is the one that was doing things at the time.
YOU'RE ignoring my argument. The only thing Aranea did that defies explanation is "manipulating" the clock to keep Jade dead. Hussie still pulled her out of his ass because she was never shown to have any sort of agency of her own. Before this she always played a passive role, so it's like he just picked whoever would be the best tool for the job of hurrying things along. It's an obviously unplanned, lazy maneuver. Sortof like Trickster Mode, which was also complete garbage.

>She scorpio'd gamzee.
My point there was that requires continuous concentration, but guess what? The symbol's gone now anyway, despite him still being manipulated by Aranea. So obviously it's not required ever.

>You seem to be confused here.
No, you're just ignorant and full of yourself. Perhaps we should stop talking to eachother before things get even more hostile between us.

Oh, I almost forgot. When I said psychokinesis I meant being able to shove things around with your mind. Only psychic trolls have been shown to be able to do that- for instance, both Captor trolls.

>Before anyone ascended, there were rules for it. The process was clearly described.

No, the process was vaguely described, and then exceptions happened whenever it was inconvenient for them not to.

I mean, when your argument is, and I am going to bold this shit:

Hussie has established rules bit by bit, and EVERYTHING has followed established rules.

You run into serious fucking problems when rules are established and then changed (see: Aradia).

>The only thing Aranea did that defies explanation is "manipulating" the clock to keep Jade dead.

Then what happened to:

>She already used some bullshit psychic power to topple a goddamn building.

I mean, you were just saying that that was a bullshit out of nowhere thing with no explanation. Can't even keep your own arguments straight?

Also, Aranea didn't manipulate the clock.

> Hussie still pulled her out of his ass because she was never shown to have any sort of agency of her own.

And lamented it.

And started to enjoy actually doing things during the pirate adventure.

And opined longingly about the wonderful backstory adventures and importance of her alternian ancestor existence.

>It's an obviously unplanned, lazy maneuver.

Despite being set up. Despite your arguments that Hussie sets everything up via rules and then follows them.

wow. I was joking about you somehow managing to not understand Homestuck but now I think it might be true.

> So obviously it's not required ever.

It was still shown when she used her power to control him in the first place.

> Perhaps we should stop talking to eachother before things get even more hostile between us.

You being too angry at a bad webcomic to think straight does not equal hostility -between- us. Any hostility in said space is solely emanating from your direction.

>When I said psychokinesis I meant being able to shove things around with your mind.

So? Who said she used her mind and not some manner of other attack? All she did was break the tower. The glow effect no longer exists on it as it is falling.

>>25400
>I mean, you were just saying that that was a bullshit out of nowhere thing with no explanation.
No, I just said it was bullshit. The explanation is that she's psychic. Which I said. In that sentence. You jackass.
>Also, Aranea didn't manipulate the clock.
That's your opinion, and beside the point.

>And lamented it. And started to enjoy actually doing things during the pirate adventure. And opined longingly about the wonderful backstory adventures and importance of her alternian ancestor existence.
That is a good point and I will concede that she isn't a complete asspull. So I guess you win, Hussie isn't just making shit up. Wait, weren't you just saying he makes everything up? I guess you were just being a jackass.

"It's an obviously unplanned, lazy maneuver."
>Despite your arguments that Hussie sets everything up via rules and then follows them.
Yeah. That is what pissed me off- that it looked like it wasn't following the rules.
>wow. I was joking about you somehow managing to not understand Homestuck but now I think it might be true.
You only think you understand Homestuck. You just don't like how it's written and look at it in the most negative light possible, and think that's the only explanation for it. You are wrong.

You can't even understand ME, how can you possibly understand Homestuck?

>It was still shown when she used her power to control him in the first place.
So what?

>Any hostility in said space is solely emanating from your direction.
Yeah, you sure aren't hostile to me at all. You sure aren't bending what I say to make me look bad and talking down to me. That sure doesn't sound suspiciously like "You mad, bro?" You sure aren't a massive jackass.

But uh, thanks for resolving the thing I was upset about! I GUESS WE CAN STOP TALKING NOW. By which I mean stop provoking me.

>No, I just said it was bullshit.

What made it bullshit? Not being established beforehand? Why can't something be established by being shown instead of having every character saying 'I can do this' immediately before doing it like some sort of silver-age schlock?

>I guess you were just being a jackass.

Yes, everything is made up. In fact, in a work of fiction, even things that ARE foreshadowed or set up are made up. The point about 'everything was made up' was that you were saying you were mad about things that Hussie was 'just making up.' Which is inherently hilarious.

What this has to do with me being a jackass is kind of confusing though.

>You just don't like how it's written and look at it in the most negative light possible, and think that's the only explanation for it. You are wrong.

You just said my explanation of events was correct.

Also I fail to see how understanding that a work has failings is looking at it in 'the most negative light possible,' but I'm also not a teenager any more so that might be why?

>You can't even understand ME, how can you possibly understand Homestuck?

-you- are an inarticulate guy on a forum who is making arguments that are internally inconsistent.

Homestuck is just a very simple story that happens to be long and to have an overreliance on 'plot twists' that occur by changing what is known about the rules of the setting instead of by applying established rules.

>So what?

Does consistency matter or not?

>Yeah, you sure aren't hostile to me at all. You sure aren't bending what I say to make me look bad and talking down to me.

I'm being condescending, not hostile.

> That sure doesn't sound suspiciously like "You mad, bro?" You sure aren't a massive jackass.

Perhaps, and this might shock you, if you weren't insulting me in ways that had nothing to do with the actual argument, you wouldn't come off as looking angry. Just a thought!

>By which I mean stop provoking me.

Correcting somebody for being openly wrong about something is 'provoking them,' now? And clearly from the context this is supposed to be a negative thing?

This isn't tumblr, chief.

>>25402
You're presenting opinions as fact, misinterpreting what I'm saying, and contradicting yourself. That is all I will say on the remaining matters. Most of this really belongs on BDA but I haven't a clue how it could be split off from the meaningful discussion.

>You're presenting opinions as fact,

Where? You -do- know what an opinion is, right? I mean sure you've already used the word incorrectly in this conversation, but I hold out hope that you were just angry and not thinking straight.

>misinterpreting what I'm saying,

where?

>and contradicting yourself.

Where?

Aranea toppling the tower with psyychyk pywyrs wasn't ham handed. Keeping Jane from reviving Jade now *that* was ham handed. In fact I suspect it's becoming extra ham handed because while naysayers are bitching about Aranea's clock break, a bunch of clearly contrived events are hindering Jane one after the other, something the naysayers are missing entirely in their clock rage.

So, how about that gigapause?
The prospect is horrifying - months and months without Homestuck, followed by all of it at once.
I don't think I'm ready for the end.

And did one of the two clowns up there back in September legitimately think Areana had nothing to do with Jade's Just death?
What a clown. That was clear manipul8ion via light powers.

>The prospect is horrifying - months and months without Homestuck, followed by all of it at once.

So basically like the last big pause except at the end something happens.

Real Talk: I actually had to go back and check what the 'big cliffhanger' it was leaving off on was because I didn't remember anything significant happening. I guess it's the condesce appearing?

God, I fucking hate homestuck. I am so glad I do not waste my time with that shit anymore.

how rude

>>25476

But there is so much hapening! There was even a curtain closing! This is all clearly very big important stuff! No shenanigans here at all!