>>1088234

The ethical way to stop smallpox would've been to give the vaccine to the Roman Empire. Any of these large empires could've been trained in germ theory and how to do vaccination. And there's a whole HOST of ideas which don't require preexisting infrastructure (like, oh, humanism? The whole idea that all human beings have some inherent worth and value to their lives?) which a time traveler who valued saving lives, and making timelines in which more lives are saved, could've given to people. Huge segments of knowledge were earned in blood and knowing about these things without having to spend the blood could've been immense, and caused a huge population boom, and prevented the extinction of whole species, cultures, and peoples.

One idea would be to just give a bunch of advancements and ideas (and a globe, perhaps) to the Persian Empire, or to Cyrus the Great himself when he was getting started. It would be perhaps the first really big empire, and a bit of tweaking could have a HUGE amount of lifesaving advancements and cultural ideas and ways of thinking and morality that would utterly redefine the human race and the direction of humanity.

Uhh moving on from the heavy subjects Shyama how advanced are the technology of you're time?

Like It's obvious that you have some handle of space flight since we're on a ship so is there any space colony set up or did you just stumble across this ship while it's floating in low earth orbit.

Also do you guys have a smart phone?

In my timeline it's basically small hand potable computer that happen to be able to make phone calls. I would love to have some way to contact you guys when you're out of this room and It would prove me with plentiful reading materials when I'm alone.

Also have you found a way to make mechs viable in this timeline.

>>1088287
I'm... pretty sure the goal wasn't to kill smallpox.

Asking more about the culture of this other timeline is a good idea, but we should at sone point consider that Shyama and the others are for sure working under a bigger government or organisation capable of launching a manned mission to the moon. Right now we could be talking to agents of a totalitarian regime although the interactions so far are speaking more to a preventive concern right now. Still, especially in our emotional state we should try to be careful and concentrate more on finding out about their world view and alliegances.

Questions that should reveal some about that:
-Since there was a lot of talk about different religions, does atheism exist in this timeline? Have there been bigger scisms in their leading world religions comparable to ours?
-Does this world have a unified code of human rights? If so, who drafted this up?
-Is there something resembling the United Nations?
-Are there any big wars currently? If yes, is the country they are from involved?

Until now our captors have shown to be mostly compassionate and open-minded, but its importent to make sure who we are working with here. Plus, Shyama seems to be very cautious and might have similar suspicions of us, so an exchange in this direction might clear the air a bit. Maybe compliment him for his calm and restrained reaction to your arm-grabbing and apologize for breaching the topic of representation (which seemed to be obviously loaded and complex, although it would be fascinating to learn more about an alternate timelines view on reprensentation and *maybe?* transsexuality) since for all he knows we COULD still be a crazy killer robot from the most evil of timelines...

Silicon 2024/04/15(Mon)12:03 No. 1088840 ID: 1d6349
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It occurs to you that this group of astronauts is unlikely to be working alone. Space programs require an amount of resources and a workforce that are beyond what anybody but large, wealthy nations or corporations can bring to bear.
It might be prudent to figure out what kind of entity you're dealing with here and what their values are. Probing deeper into the colonialism topic seems like a good place to start.

"How did the uh... the Aztecs fare? Uh the Triple Alliance? Mexica? Tenochtitlan? Does any of this ring a bell?", you venture.

Shyama lightly taps his pen on the table a few times as he answers: "Yes... Tenochtitlan, the Mexica, Tlacopan, the Tlaxcallans and so on. Well, they... They managed, I suppose. Nahuatlan has been in a bit of an economic upswing ever since they finished work on that canal.
"Their culture is relatively intact, though that still means that it's been altered quite significantly. If you want to know just how badly they were treated, I'm really not the right person to-"

You interject: "Shyama, give it to me straight. The idiots from my timeline ruined and exterminated most of the native populations, replaced them with slaves they harvested from ... whatever the continent south of Rome is, and then acted surprised when everything eventually blew up in their faces. Whatever your culture did, I assure you: it's a bad apple in a sea of bad apples."

Silence falls.

Silicon 2024/04/15(Mon)12:03 No. 1088841 ID: 1d6349
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After a couple seconds Shyama finally blinks, takes a couple notes and then responds: "All right, but let's keep this brief. In the 2020s by our calendar, outsiders began to arrive in Ixachitlan. First were Muslim explorers from Alkemmet and Haemia, then Buddhist and Hindu missionaries from Mabharata and Mahacina.
"They brought a number of infectious diseases with them, that the locals were not accustomed to, leading to a string of devastating epidemics. These were further aggravated due to the limited understanding of epidemiology and the steadily increasing influx of settlers from both east and west.
"The then-nascent Empire of Kushana greatly expanded its Ixachitlanan colonies and conquered others laying the foundation for modern colonial states on the west coast of northern Ixachitlan and spreading its religion, culture and language."

"And the caste system.", Vijaya adds.

"Oh speaking of which!", you say.
You can hear Shyama inhale sharply through his nose.

"The people in India as we called it also had a caste system. That's where society is divided into four groups... or was it five? Anyway, they all had different privileges and were allowed to work different professions and were banned from intermingling, right?", you venture.

Shyama seems a bit torn on how to respond to this for a moment. Then he says: "I'm not sure if that's wrong or just very strangely put. The Kushan Empire's castes are largely a self-perpetuating system of privilege, wealth and opportunity. Family names are closely linked to caste and the members of the more privileged castes have a material interest in looking after their own.
"In imperial times it was a given that, for example, the government's offices were stacked with wealthy Kshatriya families who constantly fought each other for power, but also collectively assured that no one without a traditional Kshatriya name would ever make it very far in politics. And of course they cooperated to concentrate as much wealth and power in Kshatriya hands as possible in any way they could.
"The other castes acted in very similar ways, though of course there was a pecking order. And the Dalita would always have to make do with whatever scraps the rest of society would leave them.
"Now, intermarriage was never actually forbidden, but it was effectively unthinkable. Marrying someone of a lower caste would quickly make anyone a pariah to their family. They'd always rather cast someone to the dogs than let anybody climb up to their level. It was in the higher castes' material interest to keep these lines solid while making them look technically crossable."

You think about this. It's certainly not what you expected when you heard the word 'caste', 'varna' in kushani.

"Anyway, we're working hard on eliminating the whole thing. In modern Kushanasthana and many other places, using one's caste name is strongly frowned upon. And please, I don't care how curious you are, do not ask people what their caste is.", he concludes.

"That's so very interesting," you start, "you see in my timeline-"

Here Shyama cuts you off: "Disq. Excuse me. What does this accomplish?"
"Eh?"

Silicon 2024/04/15(Mon)12:04 No. 1088842 ID: 1d6349
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"You keep drawing comparisons between our timeline and yours. You keep asking all these questions about history that have nothing to do with whatever is going on with you, the amnesia and all that. Why do you care so much about our history, when you evidently were here on the moon the whole time?", he asks.

You tilt your head in disbelief: "How could I not be curious about that?"

Shyama shakes his head. He speaks softly: "Curiosity is not a good enough reason to get so hung up on something pointless. You're trying to unravel an impossibly dense web of karmavipaka. You are trying to understand the current state of the whole world as the result of a single karmic act over two millennia ago. That is not sensible, Disq. It's too large a problem to solve."

You're not sure how to respond, so he keeps going.

"This is very much like the unanswerable question of karmaphala," he says, "Here and now there is a real problem to be solved. It's urgent. Time is limited. You need to find back to yourself, Disq. You're like the wounded man, struck by a poisoned arrow who will not allow the wound and poisoning to be treated until he knows the name, family name, profession, exact look of the attacker, make and material of the arrow and so on and so forth. Treat the wound first. Worry about the rest later.
"Let it go for now, hm? You can dig into history all you want when this is all over."

Shyama seems to have mistaken your intent, here. He's not wrong that you'd like to know everything there is to know about this new history, but he seems to have missed that you're digging for background information. That's just as well.

You make a show of reluctantly nodding your head. "Okay. Fine, I'll let it go. Can we talk more about contemporary culture then? The state of the world now?"

Shyama clicks his tongue. "We might have to steer clear of a few things, but otherwise... Sure.", he says.

Silicon 2024/04/15(Mon)12:04 No. 1088843 ID: 1d6349
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You consider what other topic you might start with... You want to ask about a United Nations kind of deal and international human rights, but these things are not quite so simple to explain, so you opt for a simple one first.
Maybe you can bring up the UN again later, when you've figured out a way to describe the concept.

"Are there any big wars, currently?", you ask.
Shyama looks down for moment before responding: "I don't know what a big war is to you. The most devastating war in history ended... about 22 years ago. And since then there have been many lesser ones. I don't think there was ever a time in my life when we weren't at war in some capacity. But let's not go deeper into this topic. It's too close to what I'm trying to avoid for now."

You think for a moment, but you cannot seem to find a kushani word for 'atheism', so you'll have to describe what you mean.

"We talked about religion a lot but so far haven't touched at all on people who don't believe in, well... anything. Belief-less ones?", you try.

Shyama's quirks an eyebrow. "People who don't believe in anything? Uh... You mean people who have no conception of the world?"

You try to clarify: "Ah no. Okay, this a bit difficult. We have this word 'Atheist'. It translates literally as 'godless person', but it really refers to someone who rejects belief in any deities whatsoever."
"Oh. Well, I don't really believe in any deities either.", he says.
"No?"
"No."

"I thought you're a Buddhist. You don't believe in the Buddha?", you ask, incredulous.
"Well, the Buddha was a man and we have written evidence of his existence and his teachings.", he says.
"And now?"
"Now? Now he's gone."

"What, your Buddhism has no devas or bodhisattvas? No, you know what? That's all beside the point. What I mean is... Is there no sort of... worldview out there of a more mechanical cosmos without... a spiritual component? Where only the physical exists and only science can help us understand the nature of it?"

He thinks and then turns to Vijaya. "I think they have something like that over in Alkemmet, right?", he asks.
Vijaya scratches her scalp stubble and says: "Yyyeeaaaahhh, uh... Can't remember the name of that philosophy, though."
Shyama turns back to you. "Another thing to talk to Gamal about, perhaps?"

"Do you have an opinion on the idea?", you try.
"I barely understand what you're getting at," he says, "I'm personally not sold on any division between the physical and the spiritual. To me, there is only one cosmos that matters and we are trapped in it by our misapprehension of its components. There is a system to it and science is useful for understanding and manipulating this grand illusion to various ends.
"We try to keep the gods and the buddhas out of it. I believe that living to secure a place in the heavens in another life tends to lead to... complacency. It is therefore best to consider this realm, this life, this moment as the only true reality and make the best of that.
"But that's not what you mean, is it?"

It sounds like people in this timeline may put less importance on belief in deities in general, and are more focused on how the belief systems affect actions, perhaps? Which would explain why even this explanation of Buddhism sounds more agnostic than religious as we understand it.

But we have gathered some clues: people of Gamal's, Shyama's and Vijaya's countries of origin seem to interact with each other regularly and kindly enough to know and accept each other's philosophies somewhat well. Maybe that's where we can hook into the cooperation of nations?

"So if I understood correctly, the members of this crew come from different countries? Is that because the governments cooperate on space travel or do you just happen to come from a diverse place? Sorry for comparing again, this is just for my own frame of reference, but where I come from we had some cooperative projects between nations that opted into them. Projects like trading laws, travel restrictions, but also protection of people on a large scale. Or the avoidance of cruelty by governments. I'm curious if this is such a project."

Talk around words and form words as compound words or short phrases as needed. IE, agnosticism is 'the word for a belief that the divine and supernatural is unknown or unknowable', and secularism is 'the word for the political principle and political philosophy that religion should be removed from affairs of the state wherever possible'.

There's a number of aspects of human condition that are 'irreligious'. Some are political, some are philosophical, some are intellectual positions, some are parody religions, some are social movements. Things like secularism, atheism, agnosticism, secular humanism, some categories of materialism, naturalism, antireligion movements, antitheism, freethought, and the like. They're characterized by a rejection of dogma, rejection of belief in the supernatural, rejection of the spiritual, rejection of the existence of deities, rejection of belief that miracles ever happen or happened, rejection of any concept of the afterlife or reincarnation or dharma or karma or similar, rejection of religious institutions and religious practices and beliefs, rejection of superstition and non-evidence based practices, rejection of the idea that there is a world or reality beyond what can be directly seen and measured with tools, a focus on concepts like empiricism, rationalism, reason, logic, observation of the natural world, and epistemological beliefs that support all of that. Surely you had some level of the same spread of those sorts of ideas amongst humanity in your timeline?

>>1088850

And by rejection of dharma, that means that their understanding of the 'cosmos' is more about concepts like the those in physics and astronomy, uh physical cosmology: you know, the big bang, special relativity, general relativity, dark matter, the expansion of the universe and galaxies and of space itself, the study of spacetime, quantum physics, string theory, black holes, the movement of galaxies and stars, that sort of thing. And their understanding of 'morality' would be not based on authority that comes from religious institutions or religious types of belief, perhaps instead based on empirically observed ways to get to best group outcomes, like via utilitarianism or by social contract theory or by game theory, or simply moral codes that are not anchored in religious dogma in general.

>>1088843
Atheism rejects spiritualism and the belief in gods or something beyond this existence. Atheists put their trust in the observable and provable. Science is unto it like a Holy book is unto a religion, you suppose.

One also has something like agnosticism, wherein one believes something spiritual or divine or beyond may exist - but that humans do not know it or cannot prove it to be real.

Mankind is good enough at storytelling and has told enough tales over the years, made up enough sects and religions and schisms, that atheists find it entirely plausible it all comes down to lies-to-children and then lies-to-adults, and the answer to our existence is cosmic happenstance and evolution. Which can be wondrous and boggling in its own way.

They should, by now, know about the vastness of space and the Big Bang, yes? Old religions in your timeline tended to push back against scientific understanding - simply countering the belief that the sun was spinning around the earth and not the other way around was controversial.

>>1088843
Tell him that the Atheist label is partially a pushback against excessive focus on religion, which doesn't seem to be much of a problem in their culture? It's historically been a huge one in your world.

Honestly this would be easier if I have some access to you're version of the internet. Or maybe a few recordings of some popular documentary.

Well, we are dealing with time travel. If that couldn't find hard evidence of a god, nothing can.

So it seems like this religion is less an orthodox business and more of a school of philoso-... Ah damn it makes sense that this timelines' kind of philosophy emerged from religious movements, the roman empire was pivotal in spreading greece concepts and works after annexing them! Fuck, that's interesting!

Anyway, Shyama makes a good point and seems to lose his patience for now.
We should kindly ask him about the exact nature of this time sensitive problem.
Up until now we only got glimpses of that and since we are slowly getting our shit sorted out it me be time that he told us what exactly we can help them with.
Is a reactor overheating? Are they stranded on the moon base? Did communication with Houston break down? Based on their reactions so far I think it will be somewhat linked to something they cant parse in a technological manner or linked to writings they don't understand.

Silicon 2024/04/24(Wed)14:22 No. 1089607 ID: 815fee
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"No, I don't think so."
You try to think of a way to explain this in a simple, concise way.
"The people I'm talking about reject dogma, deities and all notions of karm and dharma and what have you. They believe in that which is observable and provable and only that. Their cosmology is based on observable evidence and laws and models that have proven to make accurate predictions. There was a big bang and-"

"Disq, sorry, look..." he interrpts again, "I think we might be talking around each other. I don't think we actually... disagree here? I mean, I find karma to be quite observable and demonstrable: intent leads to action leads to consequence. I don't really understand what rejecting dharma even means and I don't think discussing that further will be fruitful, but perhaps there isn't even a need. Laws and models that allow predictions about the cosmos to be made? Sounds like a description of dharma to me. But the word has many meanings and perhaps that's the source of this misunderstanding..."

"Well surely at least secularism exists? That's the idea that government, administration and the state... the public sphere... should be separated from religious matters.", you explain

"Yes of course. The temple and monastery complexes of the Brahmana constituted one of the empire's strongest pillars, after all. Their power had to be broken and there's still more work to be done."

"That's n-"

"Yes, that's not exactly what you mean, Disq. Is that a surprise? According to you, history diverged over two thousand years ago. I'd be surprised if any of your philosophical frameworks did map neatly onto any of ours. Does it really matter what bird the feathers on the poisoned arrow came from?"

Silicon 2024/04/24(Wed)14:22 No. 1089608 ID: 815fee
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Shyama seems pretty frustrated with this line of conversation, so you decide to move on to something else.

You ask: "So if I understood correctly, the members of this crew come from different countries? Is that because the governments cooperate on space travel or do you just happen to come from a diverse place? Sorry for comparing again, this is just for my own frame of reference, but where I come from we had some cooperative projects between nations that opted into them. Projects like trading laws, travel restrictions, but also protection of people on a large scale. Or the avoidance of cruelty by governments. I'm curious if this is such a project."

"Ah, that's... hmm. That may be a partially apt comparison, though it's a little complicated.", Shyama says. He seems lost in thought for a moment.
"Almost everybody involved in the 13th Dyauspitr mission are from the Coalition of Kushana, a loose alliance of several dozen countries and territories for the purpose of securing and safeguarding the spoils of the caste war. Our space program is a collaboration within the Coalition.
Beyond that there is a larger global movement surrounding the Coalition of Kushana, informally known as the Hiver Uprising. That could be described as a cooperative project to protect people, especially against cruel regimes. Though if anything the Hivers seek to undermine travel restrictions and trade law... well, it really depends on whose law."

That doesn't really sound like the United Nations to you...

"Incidentally, Gamal is not from the Coalition of Kushana. He's from Egypt, which is part of the Dacian Sultanate."

"And that's... also part of the Hiver movement?", you venture.

Shyama smirks. "Ah no... No, Dacia is one of the greatest threats to the whole enterprise. No, Gamal isn't with us because Kushanasthana is a diverse place, exactly - though it is that - but rather because he has proven his loyalty and reliability, which is crucial in any clandestine operation."

You recoil. "Clandestine? You flew to the moon. How the hell would you ever hide that from anybody?"

He steeples his fingers. "Of course we're not hiding the fact that we're exploring the moon. But what we have been able to keep under wraps so far is... well, you. Fortunately, our enemies' space programs lag behind ours and so keeping the existence of this habitat on the far side of the moon a secret was simply a matter of photocompositing. But they're sure to catch up eventually."

THEY FAKED THE MOON LANDING IN THIS TIMELINE! Er... well, uh, they faked A moon landing in this timeline!!

This kinda sounds like a conspiracy of sorts...

But you should probably hook into this from a more sympathetic angle, perhaps? Maybe something like "So you are a rebellion against classist regimes? Is that why you need to keep me a secret? In case I might be dangerous in the hands of someone else if they find me?"

I dunno how we're supposed to have a conversation about the differences between timelines without comparing them, but ok.

Oh, now we know our current location with better precision. Far side of the moon, that's a real good place to hide from a pre-spaceflight civilization. Maybe the important thing you were supposed to do was move to a better spot? Except, if you could do that, why weren't you already somewhere else? Not much reason to stay on the moon.

Anyway I think I get the jist of their situation. They're in a cold war, and they think things are going to escalate, so they're trying to find an advantage. Tell her about the cold war between the USA and USSR, and about how it ended. Not with a world war, believe it or not!

>>1089608
And by the time they figure it out you would like to have a headstart… in what, exactly? What do they need from this facility and me?

Technologies? The secrets to wielding nuclear fire? The answer to life, the universe and everything?

Which is 42, by the way.

Which is a silly literacy reference from the science fiction of your timeline.

Shyama is getting real passive aggressive with this arrow analogy. As an amnesiac, all topics hold equal relevance for now. If He thinks you should be talking about something specific he should just say so and not talk down to you.

>>1089609
They pulled a Billy Bat, and faked the moon landing so they could merge the fake movie with the real moon landing to manipulate the public into limiting their attention of the moon, which in this timeline is mega-@#$%ing important.

Same old insanity from the ruling classes; money is not backed by goods or services, it is once again backed by slaves, the labels rebranded yet again.

>>1089633
He keeps demanding we stop strying into "pointless"topics but keeps dodging the question when we ask what is important.

We know they're here because of some sort of "crisis" and he keeps getting annoyed when we don't focus on addressing topics relevent to this crisis but he also won't bloody well tell us what the crisis is!

>>1089671

Yea, what the fuck is up with this?

>>1089671

Also, we have to apparently be in a particular state of mind to listen to these presumably horrible details, but they also won't tell us what state of mind that is, so we could practice mindfulness meditations or whatever to try and get to that point or spend some time bracing ourselves against whatever the bad news is or perhaps suggest appropriate stimuli or methods to get us to that state of mind!

Silicon 2024/05/05(Sun)13:59 No. 1090385 ID: c3e91a
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You figure it makes sense that anybody who found an artifical structure of unknown origin on the moon would want to keep that knowledge from their enemies for as long as possible.
Still, the fact that most of humankind but not all of humankind are ignorant of your existence makes you uneasy. How serious are they about secrecy? The existence of this... Lunar habitat will be impossible to keep hidden indefinitely, but you? You, they could certainly make disappear if they wanted to.
They don't strike you as hardened killers, but how well do you know them, really?

For now you decide to keep things friendly though.
"So you are a rebellion against classist regimes?" you ask,"Is that why you need to keep me a secret? In case I might be dangerous in the hands of someone else if they find me?"

"That is precisely it. Our enemies have demonstrated an alarming lack of scruples. If they found a way to wipe all opposition to their dominion off the map, they would. No question. But we got here first. So perhaps we can find a better solution."

He's still avoiding the real topic, still trying not to talk about it directly. Time for a stab in the dark.

"This all sounds very familiar. See, in my timeline there was a prolongued conflict between two large power blocks, justified primarily with an ideological divide. We called it the Cold War. The advent of nuclear weaponry meant that direct warfare between the largest powers could have quickly escalated into a disaster of apocalyptic proportions. So for decades, this cold war was instead fought via allied puppet states and largely unsupervised cells of spies, assassins and saboteurs.
Perhaps you'll be surprised to hear that it didn't end with outright nuclear war. The USSR collapsed economically. Though the threat of global nuclear war never really went away..."

Never? Hm. You're not actually sure about that. History at this point gets kind of fuzzy in your mind. Perhaps the climate crisis became a greater concern in the end?

Shyama studies your face for a few moments.
"Well. The prospect of total nuclear annihilation doesn't seem to trouble you much. That's... surprising."

"Is that all you have to say about it?", you ask.

He shakes his head. "Certainly not. And I suppose, since you're familiar with a... similar situation, perhaps I misjudged the potential danger of the topic."

You try to word this next bit tactfully.

"I'm honestly at a loss as to what else to talk about. You keep blocking questions because they're 'pointless', but won't tell me about the important crisis you have going on.", you explain.

"I suppose I didn't explain the issue very well, then. I suppose the poisoned arrow analogy isn't quite as culturally universal as I'd hoped. So in plain words: I'd like you to focus not on all the little differences in how history played out, no matter how tempting, because that is a topic of endless depth and there will be time for it later. And while I didn't want to aggravate your condition further by introducing you to the horror of looming nuclear war, I was hoping we could find ways to work on your amnesia.", he says, "But all right. Let's speak of the end of the world."

Silicon 2024/05/05(Sun)13:59 No. 1090386 ID: c3e91a
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"You'll promise to let me know when to stop rather than hurting yourself?", he asks.

You nod. "Of course."

"Of course", he sighs as he stops the recorder and switches out the tapes once more.
"This is session two, cassette two, 6th of Pausha Waning, 2512.
I will keep the history lesson simple, because the poisoned arrow analogy also applies to me. From 2477 until 2490 the Great Haemian War raged on. It is the most devastating conflict to date. The most notable belligerents were the Dacian Sultanate, the Holy Wendish Empire, the Empire of Kushana and then after its fall the Pipilikavat alliance. The war consumed both the Wendish and Kushan Empires and left the Dacian Sultanate economically ascendant. During the latter half of the war, various polities around the globe worked on nuclear weapons projects. The Dacians succeeded first, but by that time, the war was already over.
"The power of their weapons had already been proven by various tests in the Sahara desert. But the first and so far - thankfully - last use on actual human targets was the bombing of..." Here he sighs. "Rome. Ending the Roman Hiver Uprising of 2493.
"A clear statement of intent. The Coalition of Kushana have successfully constructed nuclear weapons of our own not long after, but this just leaves us in a precarious stalemate. I'm not sure if I'd call it a 'Cold War' as you did, though. It's true that our member territories and the Dacian Sultanate aren't directly threatened with military action, just about everywhere else is consumed by war.
And it's just a matter of time before somebody does something foolish and plunges us all over the edge into nuclear annihilation."

Silicon 2024/05/05(Sun)13:59 No. 1090387 ID: c3e91a
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He stops and studies your reaction again. He seems tense. Vijaya behind him is just staring blankly into space.

"And...", you begin, but it comes out as a hoarse croak. You clear your throat and try again: "And what do you hope to find here to prevent that?"

"Anything.", he says, immediately. "Anything to save us. Anything at all."

He settls back into his chair and takes a deep breath. After releasing it, he continues: "We have no way of knowing what technology would have been available to your people and which of it we could even adapt for practical use in time. I try to think small, simple. I'm hoping for miniature recording devices, audiovisual and more, scanners. Untraceable hand-held weapons. I believe these sorts of innovations could help us erode our enemies' cohesion from the inside. But again, I'll take what I can get. What's immediately useful to solve the problem at the core."

He leans forward again. "Will you help us?"

So they bombed Rome not once, but twice? Maybe it was their nuclear warheads which went back and time and changed their own history. Does that make sense? Of course not, nothing does.

You don't know if aiding one side or the other in a war would be counterproductive to your mission, whatever that mission was. How about a deal: They help us investigate our surroundings and try to understand this facility's purpose, and in exchange the function and purpose of technology that we jointly (re)discover will be shared in two directions. They get our tech, we get our memories. What little we know indicates we were an engineer here and do have the technical knowledge buried in us to help identify technology.

>>1090387
Well, spy tech is a relatively harmless future tech to leak so sure, that seems reasonable. At worst it'll cause privacy concerns, but it's basically impossible to monitor an entire population unless you're looking for specific phrases.
If anything else useful shows up then we can consider the costs and benefits of revealing that tech to them.

However, in exchange... they have to let you leave this room. You're not going to make much more progress recovering your memory if you're stuck here.

"Is there tech here that can help you with your crisis? Almost certainly. But see, here's the bad news; I don't remember exactly what my crisis is about, but I'm starting to get this sinking feeling that it is orders of magnitude greater than the one you described in scope. Near as I can tell, an entire timeline - containing the whole of humanity for many generations - may have already been murdered. Unmade? Whatever. So, maybe it's my turn to direct your attention to the far deadlier poison arrow, one that threatens far more than just a limb of humanity. Am I using that correctly?"

> I'm not sure if I'd call it a 'Cold War' as you did, though. It's true that our member territories and the Dacian Sultanate aren't directly threatened with military action, just about everywhere else is consumed by war.

Nope, that's... pretty much exactly what happened in your historic cold war. Proxy wars were f-cking everywhere, all in the name of preventing $thoseotherguys from spreading.

You'll help them but it's true. This 'precarious stalemate' isn't the biggest danger to the world right now. Nukes can't be used without massive popular backlash on either side because they're just that bad, and the rich fucks causing your wars can't extract rent out of a bunch of corpses. The biggest danger is that you've forgotten something very important you need to do, and until they know what it is, they can only assume it'll erase all of existence if you don't take care of it.

Both your task, and their spy efforts require you to remember though. So:

1. make sure what you're forgetting isn't a "history eraser" button
2. help them spy on the commies

Can you remember some kind of microscopic cameras? Video transmission without the use of radio waves? And really, what on Luna is that important thing you have to do?

>>1090387
Big issue I see is that spy tech won't really solve this issue. If their enemies feel like they're now at a definitive disadvantage they may just decide to go nuclear.

>>1090397
The thing is, once one side has an advantage, they don't have to press it. They can open negotiations and use their advantage to gain reasonable concessions without risking nuclear war. They can't gain total victory, sure, but they can get a good outcome nevertheless.

Well nothing helps erode a regime's power from the inside like information technology, but that would be rather long term to implement.

Alright, so there's several issues here. Assuming your tech level is roughly equivalent to my timeline and calendar's 1969-ish, you are in an incredibly awkward position, technologically, vis a vis 'useful things I can give you in a timeframe of weeks to months'. There is a ton of useful technology I could help you develop, really game-changing stuff, but most of it is either, itself 'a form of infrastructure' or something that requires a massive, pre-existing web of related industry and infrastructure.

Of course I could help you develop that, but that is still in the 'years to decades' range. Examples exist from all over different sorts of technology; like if you put me in charge of microchip and computer engineering and software development at your largest institution for that, I could shave decades off of development to get you to the point of having, say, neural network based generative artificial intelligence. Or, put me in charge of some sort of space and satellite command, and I could help you develop a Global Positioning System, with massive economic, social, and military benefits, and associated satellite based telecommunications and weather monitoring technology. I could even, along with microprocessor and microchip development, help you build an Internet, a network of digital networks, which is likely the next big civilization-defining infrastructure development. But, again, years to decades!

Associated with satellite monitoring, there's climate data and models that contributed to nuclear dearmament in my timeline, stuff that helped project a potential large scale worldwide agricultural collapse and mass starvation and existential risk to humanity due to that after a large nuclear exchange due to the onset of nuclear winter. This contributed to various treaties and nuclear dearmament and de-escalation policies. So that's a thing to be aware of as well.

Or, for direct military things, I could help you develop the next generation of traditional guided missile destroyer --or the guided missiles themselves-- or your next generation of military helicopter, or next generation of radar resistant stealth combat aircraft. Or even a subsystem useful for military equipment, I could help you develop a phased array radar system. The problem is these are all, again, years to decades out, and mostly require a whole host of other technologies and industry!

Even the best sort of spygear of the sort you are asking for requires a robust semiconductor and microprocessor industry, for miniaturization needs. Sure, I can help you make, say, digital cameras, but -again- those are predicated on a whole web of industries. That's because, if I'm right, where you are technologically is at the point where most of the low hanging fruit has been picked. Most of the easy and able to be done quickly stuff that's left would just be novel consumer goods!

Your best bet is to find an already built computer around here somewhere -- look for excess cooling infrastructure, processing is hot -- get it working, and use that to crack enemy codes and for cryptographic analysis, and then also use that computational access to help develop whichever part of the next generation of technology is important to you.

'Erode our enemies cohesion from the inside' is a dangerous mission statement when it comes to nuclear powers, but yeah...

I think we could need a change of scenery and think about what we found out so far. How about telling Shyama that we will do our best but it would help to maybe take a guided tour through the facility to jog the memory of specific technologies for them to reverse-engineer.

That also could give us a way to access our own level of technology since most of our memories and knowledge seems to be stuck in the 21st century for some (...) reason, aside from the blurt about quantum-computing...

So am I getting that right - we've been mistrusting Shyama this entire time. He has outright confirmed that he has been hiding information both from us and from the world at large. But now that he asks is politely to help his side in a war we have no info about past his word, we're suddenly eager to share all our stuff with him?

How do we know this is truly what our tech will be used for?

Also, uhm... "I'm fine, Shyama, but Vijaya over there doesn't really seem okay."

I say we should ask to see Maya again. She and Vijaya have tickled more memories to the surface than Shyama could ever manage. We don't need to tell him this, but speaking to Maya, Vijaya and Gamal may also help us learn more nuance about the conflict and give us a better idea of if supporting this group's efforts will even actually be helpful.

But seriously, is Vijaya okay? Does she need a cup of water and to sit down for a sec?

I think we need to ask them more, specifically, about why and how their side has the moral high ground again. See what rhetoric they give.

Well we sure don't want a second nuclear holocaust... But we'll need guarantees to ensure our actions don't cause it instead of averting it.

At the end of the day, what these empires don't realize is that they cannot have blind faith in technology that requires decades of testing, error corrections, and mass education. Everyone's looking at the governments and waiting for one to press the button. None of them will expect how fragile the missile detection systems are.
So you can fit a haymaker into your one-two jab of tech support.

That's what you need to start with; information. Your first infrastructure should be implementing worldwide systems that can detect nuclear material, so that everyone knows where everyone else's bombs are and can go to sleep knowing those bombs are also tucked away and not busy killing the world. Then, those systems (and all systems) need a self-contained means of error-detection, meant to prevent nuclear errors through a series of redundant checks on likely motivations for a beeping red light and the means to properly re-test a potential short-circuit.
But the final step would be education. Bombard the planet with low-cost, low-tech, all-in-one educational TVs that blare out the necessary information about nuclear war, the systems used to detect nuclear material, etc. Frame it as a sort of obligatory instruction manual for this otherwise dangerous technology... and secretly program those TVs to give out free information about standard health practices, sciences, technologies that are easily implemented in low-income neighborhoods, anime (can't forget anime, duh), and 'theoretical' alternate history stories, if they're tweaked long enough. You'll educate the world into realizing just what they've allowed themselves to be ruled under.
The new empires will freak out - but what are they going to do, nuke the moon?

I mean, full disclosure, there ARE ways to make flawed, limited, systems for shooting interception missiles or lasers at inbound nuclear missiles, so I don't want you to think I'm intentionally withholding high level information from you. But those will never stop a full scale exchange, the math doesn't work out for these sorts of things to trade well on the offensive/defensive calculation in terms of research, economic, or industrial effort required to get them 'sort of decent'. A nation that invested heavily in that stuff would still be annihilated by an equal peer that invested the same amount in just having more, better, and/or longer range missiles.

As far as social manipulation or social engineering goes... I'm not the best at that sort of thing, my ideas are based more on some technologies I didn't spend too much time focusing on, like the sorts of technologies designed to automate learning at a high level and to a large scale, like to teach or train anyone that even wanted to learn, as long as they had a very basic proficiency, and not just autodidacts and geniuses. A lot of that stuff was theorized to be able to do very dramatic sorts of social change from a bottom up rather than a top down level, and to be sure, Artificial Intelligence did cause extremely rapid social change as more people got access to it. I suppose the question becomes, how much time do we probably have? Days? Weeks? Months? Years?

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:30 No. 1091364 ID: 1d6349
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You consider the question and find a deep anxiety rising. Agreeing to help makes sense on many levels. Of course you'd want to help prevent nuclear catastrophe. Of course being cooperative may get you some concessions such as an end to your confinement. It's not that you don't have plenty of ideas for how their predicament might be addressed. Information technology is good. Making the nuclear arms race more transparent, dispersing the fog of war would likely do wonders.

But...

but what if you're missing something? What if you'd be giving a technological edge to people who will misuse it? What if you're about to be the cause of a disaster?

And there's something else there. Something deeper. At the gut level, the thought of revealing technological secrets to Shyama makes you deeply nervous.
What else have you forgotten? Are you missing the forest for the trees? is there a bigger danger than even nuclear warfare?

Beyond that there's another issue. As your brain is alight with recollection, it dawns on you that while you're familiar with a lot of the working principles of many, many technologies, devices and other junk, you're not confident that you could actually reinvent them from memory.
These things are simply too complicated to fully keep in mind. What you need is a database that holds all the specific info on how to solve all the little problems that inevitably pop up when moving an invention from the conceptual stage to implementation.
Until you gain access to such a database, any advice you can give them will be pretty vague and nebulous.

So in the end, both the ethical and practical questions cannot be answered for the same reason: The Amnesia. That damn poisoned arrow.

You decide to hedge a bit. There is one thing you are pretty sure of.

"... I will try.", you say.
Maybe it's okay that you don't yet know what exactly that help will entail. You want to make a positive impact. You'll just have to figure out what that means along the way.

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:30 No. 1091365 ID: 1d6349
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Shyama brightens up. He opens his mouth, but you interrupt him before he can say anything: "With some caveats and conditions."

He nods. "Go on."

"The smaller issues." You count them off on your fingers, " One. I will need computer access to give you actually useful information. Two. I want out of this room. Surely you can see that having a look around the habitat could help unlock more memories. Three. I want to talk to Maya again. Speaking with her and Vijaya has unlocked more memories than you've managed so far."

"... I see.", he says.
He does not seem pleased. There is another pause as he takes some more notes.
"And those are the smaller issues, yes?", he sighs, "I'll consider these. What's the bigger issue?"

"See, here's the bad news; I don't remember exactly what my crisis is about, but I'm starting to get this sinking feeling that it is orders of magnitude greater than the one you described in scope. Near as I can tell, an entire timeline - containing the whole of humanity for many generations - may have already been murdered. Unmade? Whatever. So, maybe it's my turn to direct your attention to the far deadlier poison arrow, one that threatens far more than just a limb of humanity. Am I using that correctly?"

If this alarms him, his face betrays nothing.
"Well... The poisoned arrow is usually an obvious problem that is being ignored for pointless distractions. But this problem is for from obvious. You don't even know what it is."
He shakes his head.
"But I get your meaning. If this hunch of yours is correct, we'd best do whatever possible to restore what we can of your memory."

"I guess... That is what you've been trying, but..."

"Yes, yes, I got it. You want to talk to Maya. We'll see about that. I've got that noted down. I'm really not sure if touring the habitat is the best idea in your condition."
He sounds annoyed. Probably no sense in pushing that right now.

You've been stealing glances at Vijaya for a while now. You thought she'd just spaced out, but she still doesn't seem to have snapped out of it. She's just... staring...

"Speaking of condition.", you say, "Uh... Vijaya over there doesn't really seem okay."

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:30 No. 1091366 ID: 1d6349
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Shyama turns around to look.
"... Hey Vi? You All right?"

Vijaya blinks but keeps looking ahead, dazed.
"'m fine...", she mutters.

After a couple seconds, Shyama turns back to you and stops the tape recorder with the press of a button.
"Let's call it a day, Disq.", he says, "I'll discuss your proposal with the rest. For now we should all get some sleep."

Now that he says it, you do feel quite tired. And Vijaya is clearly not well.

Shyama gathers up his writing pad and the recorder and after scooting off the chair, approaches Vijaya.
He touches her arm and speaks softly to her: "Let's go, Vi. We're done for today."

She blinksa couple times in quick succession and looks over at the both of you. "Ah. Good. Yeah.", she mumbles.
"The door, Vi.", he says and after a moment, she pushes herself off the door to make room.
Shyama knocks on it. Only seconds later it slides open.

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:31 No. 1091367 ID: 1d6349
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"Good night, Disq. See you tomorrow.", he says before leading Vijaya out of the room.

"Is she gonna be okay?", you ask quickly.
Shyama sticks his head back in. "Don't worry, Disq", he says, "She's pretty tough. And she's not alone."

"Good... Okay. Good night.", you say.
Shyama disappears and the door slides shut.

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:31 No. 1091368 ID: 1d6349
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The exhaustion hits you like a tidal wave. The wall plug seems to be calling for you.
There's not much for you to do anyway, except think, really. And you're quite tired of thinking for the moment.
Climbing into the bed, it strikes you just how tiny it is, or how tall you are. Why is everything in here so awkward?
Why'd Vijaya shut down like that?
Why's Shyama so hesitant to let you talk to Maya?
How can you know whether any of these people can be trusted?

Silicon 2024/05/20(Mon)11:31 No. 1091369 ID: 1d6349
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Well, maybe you'll figure things out tomorrow.

>>1091368
>Why'd Vijaya shut down like that?
She's a war vet, probably. Trauma related to the subject you were talking about.
>Why's Shyama so hesitant to let you talk to Maya?
Basic infosec. They're keeping secrets from you, and you're asking to talk to someone without training in that field.
>How can you know whether any of these people can be trusted?
They can't be trusted, because they're keeping secrets from you!