>>335432
I can't remember right now if it was in the intermission chapter or something Bitey said in the IRC. Might have been a response to what would have happened if Ryxiz had gone completly insane, killed Ksh'aara and then comitted suicide. It was pretty much summed up as "Extremly bad end." starting with the wall collapsing and then everyone died.

Then I think there was something about that if K'shaara had really died then everyone would have been fucked right then and there. Because all of the wizards need to be alive for the wall to work, and that's why they don't go into each others lands anymore and why they have some pretty rigid codes of conduct towards each other.

But I can't remember if those things are said exactly or where. Just that something about it has been said.

>Then I think there was something about that if K'shaara had really died then everyone would have been fucked right then and there. Because all of the wizards need to be alive for the wall to work, and that's why they don't go into each others lands anymore and why they have some pretty rigid codes of conduct towards each other.

I recall these things as well, but ctrl+f in the quest threads themselves isn't fixing anything.

There is no direct evidence anywhere in the quest that killing a wizard will make the wall fail. In IRC people posited that it could cause some sort of cascade, but this was before they knew about the congealed wall, etc.

I never said this was true, just that it was reasonable. I wasn't going to tell people their theory was wrong, because that would be spoilers (assuming it is wrong). Blacksoul definitely never said it.

So in essence... we really DON'T have any reason to think LoM is lying when he says the wall will stay up if a Wizard dies?

Something I noticed though: Kallikissa said that the Red Wizard visited them, but couldn't touch the wind. How did he visit them then? If the Progenitors can't leave the wind, and the Red Wizard can't touch the wind, how did they talk? was it like, right at the edge and they spoke to eachother over the boundary before it was too opaque? If that's the case then it's likely LoM does not want the Sea to spread. If that's the case then killing Wizards is a good idea *before* Blacksoul finishes his spell that kills almost everyone and destroys the Sea.

Everything hinges on that one fact. Will the Sea break the wall if Wizards die? If the wall will stay up regardless of what we do, then we can trust LoM because there's nothing he can do to make things worse. We need to ask Blacksoul, then somehow spread that information to the other PCs.

>>335430
If the Progenitors leave the Sea they won't have any power. They rely on the Wind (the Sea's inherent antimagic stuffs) to do anything. If they come out of the Sea, even if it's nonlethal, they will essentially be abnormal creatures, like Spikesby is right now.

>>335440

>If the Progenitors leave the Sea they won't have any power. They rely on the Wind (the Sea's inherent antimagic stuffs) to do anything

And they generate it. Without any sort of actual magic being emitted by the wizards to fill the space, if the progenitors get through the wall they will start generating it on this side.

We already know that they can send their giant monsters through right now, and they function just fine even WITH the magic to hinder them. If the wizards aren't spewing out magic, there's no telling what the progeys could slip through.

>then we can trust LoM because there's nothing he can do to make things worse.

Except that he still has that pesky deal with the progenitors that involves making the world 'ok' for them, which is nebulous but probably not good for any mortal anywhere.

>>335442

"Yes. The points of emanation are our analogues, living creatures that have gained power over time. They are fundamentally different and more limited, but it is useful to think of them as Wizards of a sort. Magical creatures do not return from the Sea. They are swallowed and lose their protections, but scouting is unnecessary - I can feel each and every point of emanation.

I feel that there are several ways in which you could continue to be useful to me. I need souls, vast quantities of souls, and they are extremely difficult to acquire. The material could be weaponized as you suggest, but I feel that the protective material could be used as a weapon directly - a wall that crushes the antithesis from all sides, down to nothing - or coating my body and the bodies of my fellow Wizards and moving directly. It's a matter of quantity. I want to destroy them outright, but that requires so many more souls.

A soul inside of a living thing is not useful against either a Wizard or an Oblivion-creature. It is the material that can be refined from souls that I need. To create the coating protecting this creature, they must have killed thousands. The more I think of it, an assault is useless. It needs to be a blast, ca crushing wall of force - they must have so many more people than we do."

From Blacksoul.

Hmm. Yes, I suppose you're right that if the Progenitors leave the Sea they'll start spreading the Wind again. Question is, why would LoM risk that? He's a Wizard and spreading the Sea would kill him.

Maybe he's an idiot? Anyway, I think that he 'predicts the future' by reading creatures' minds and memories and extrapolating from them what they are most likely to do. He saw that if Spikesby was not ordered to go to the sea, he would be most likely to play along with the Progenitors there when they gave him the antithesis.

I have a question now. Why are people so interested in giving Blacksoul all the most important items in the quest? He doesn't seem to really care about anyone aside from whether or not they're useful to him. He's obsessed with vengeance. Are people convinced that Sky will be able to heal his broken heart or some bullshit like that? Spikesby should stay the hell away from him, at any rate. Blacksoul will take his soul in a heartbeat.

>>335449

>Question is, why would LoM risk that? He's a Wizard and spreading the Sea would kill him.

We don't know the specifics of his deal with the progenitors yet. Perhaps there is something they can do about it if they choose to.

>Anyway, I think that he 'predicts the future' by reading creatures' minds and memories and extrapolating from them what they are most likely to do.

This is basically exactly what he does, as near as I can tell. Tell people what they want to hear and he thinks will get them to do what he wants.

>He saw that if Spikesby was not ordered to go to the sea, he would be most likely to play along with the Progenitors there when they gave him the antithesis.

There's also the whole 'magic breaks down in the sea, so the order wouldn't function once he entered' issue.

>Why are people so interested in giving Blacksoul all the most important items in the quest? He doesn't seem to really care about anyone aside from whether or not they're useful to him. He's obsessed with vengeance. Are people convinced that Sky will be able to heal his broken heart or some bullshit like that?

Most of the people who want to give the things to Blacksoul have one (or both) of two hopes.

1: By giving him these bits of stuff he (presumably) didn't have access to before, they might be able to convince him to enact some plan OTHER than the grand reaping.

2: They really want him to be able to obliterate the progenitors and get rid of the sea because it is a shitty place. Once the whole world is available to the mortals, they will even have plenty of places to live that are nowhere near the wizards OR progenitors/wind born if they don't want a part of their shenanigans.

This took a couple hours to write and although I did my best to comb over it to check for inconsistencies and repetitions, there's a lot here. So yeah, spelling mistakes galore, I'm sure. Incoming text flood.

>>335413
>Not wanting the gentlemen to get away only matters if he was going to do something that would cause them to do so, and there is no indication that he knew they were there.
I can only guess at this because we didn't end up talking to him. Perhaps he did mean to convert Sky to his cause? Perhaps he simply wanted privacy? I was banking more on privacy, but I could be wrong. It's unlikely we'll ever know for sure.

>In fact, if LoM could A: see the future (which he can't)
Just because the other wizards don't think he can does mean he can't. We have no way to verify this yet. It is rather curious that Marv sent Majestic out to tell Sky that she was here to betray her and that she would do really bad things. It may have been an assumption on Marv's part that Blacksoul may have some kind of horrifying plan in the works, but it also curiously accurate.
Marv's ability to see the future also seems to be somewhat sketchy. He can apparently see multiple futures, but cannot see which one will actually happen. It may also stand to reason that he is aware of multiple "presents" and is unable to determine which one he is in until observing something that confirms which one it is. But again, this is something we can't evaluate. We need more evidence.

>OR knew that the gentlemen were there (which he didn't)
We don't know this for sure, but upon reviewing the scene again, it does seem they were unprepared for them. On the other hand an overt show of force may have spooked Sky prematurely, completely eliminating the possibility of having a chat.

>He wouldn't have sent an adept to attempt to push Sky into going to see him when she didn't respond to MT's message
I don't recall any pushing going on. One of those Ophians on the outside of the tent merely reiterated "Lord of Marvels wishes to speak with you, Sky. Please return the spear to me." If they were going to force here they might've had a golem waiting behind the tent, ready to grab her if she tried to flee.
One of the Adepts did try to stop her, but Sky was also carrying an antithesis spear, which may be a precious resource; we don't know how many they have. When she started fleeing with it they may not have been trying to capture her, but prevent her from taking a spear.

>One of the two sources of information about the barrier has stated that killing wizards will cause the wall to faulter and the sea of oblivion to encroach.
This is untrue.

>The person who contradicted this
Actually the only person who's told anything at all on how the wall works, so far.

>If killing the wizards doesn't weaken the wall, the oblivion creatures have nothing noticable to gain from killing the wizards, or sending soul-consuming monsters through the wall at all
But they do. killing off wizards one at a time means they can take the Peninsula piecemeal.

>Kalikissa is The only powerful NPC that we have encountered that has no discernable reason to lie to Spikesby, since by the time she sees him she already believes him to be a part of their plan.
Lying is not the only form of deceit. Everything Kalikissa said to Spikesby (as best I can remember) would still be accurate even if the Progenitors had decided to set their own plan into motion. Simply refraining to give out pertinent information is also another form of deceit. If their plans had changed she would also have no reason to inform Spikesby of this.

>>335423
>I'm counting the ancillary evidence, like his utter failure to stop K'Shaara's awakening (if he could see it in the future, he would've known about Ryxix's presence and known that the only way to stop her awakening would be to prevent the attack in the first place)
This is as yet something I cannot account for. The only explanation I have is "I don't know." It doesn't fit the pattern I see, but I can't really get this to fit anywhere else. This may have because of circumstances we have yet to become aware of.

>as he appears to have told MT that Sky wanted her to be a spy for her, which was not the case.
Actually Sky gave Majestic the impression that she would be spying. "Don't tell [Moriga] what's happening and keep your eyes open," sounds very much like instructions to be a spy.

>That [Moriga's] statements about him being a shady motherfucker were later echoed by Kalikissa.
I don't recall Kalikissa saying anything to the tune of "But he's completely untrustworthy and we know it." If you meant "confirmed" instead of "echoed" then yes I agree: he is being rather underhanded. Having contacts in the Sea of Oblivion that can hand out jars of Wizard poison is very sneaky, but being sneaky does equal being evil.

>The reason to keep her asleep instead of dead would clearly be so that she could keep bleeding and he could continue to have blood harvested to empower the adepts for his now-loyal army.
Keeping her asleep instead of actually killing her would also prevent the Sea of Oblivion from advancing (assuming that's how it works), or it could be that his intent actually was to kill her, but his untested weapons did not have the desired effect and simply put her sleep.
Unless he was counting on Kshaara to wake up again at some point, causing everyone to flee for cover and possibly head over to him, it doesn't make much sense that his goal in attacking Kshaara would be to acquire her people as an army (especially if he can't see the future). Moving in on Kshaara's territory would give him away. If the the Ophians suddenly migrated to him after their uprising that would also be suspicious. Only now that Suri is in ruins does he have an army to command. This seems to be more of a fortuitous opportunity, rather than something planned.

>So I don't think it was just to test the spears, but definitely think that she was chosen because she was the easiest opportunity.
Actually, the easiest opportunity looks to be Moriga, who is the closest and doesn't have another wizard's territory in the way either. Moriga and Kshaara have relatively content and intelligent populations. Moriga's population may be smaller, but being quite varied, probably has more combat capable creatures in it. Even though she isn't as powerful as Kshaara, she could still probably bleed some potent magic blood.
Moriga is also a coward. Even if the attempt on her life was unsuccessful she would've just left to the oceans again, but this would achieve the same result (assuming the objective was not to test the weapons, but actually use them). If the objective was not a simple weapons test against a convenient target, then Moriga might not be a good target. Signs point to Kshaara being chosen for a reason, though what that might be is still uncertain.
Kshaara is also not weak, not a coward, and apparently enjoys eating people who have crossed her. The prospect of being eaten alive if found it is, I would think, a rather significant disincentive to mess with her. In fact Kshaara is perhaps the most dangerous wizard he could have attacked. She may be the only (at the time, anyway. Xix is definitely big enough now) who can absorb his power and kill him at the same time. Assuming the Oblivion advances if a wizard dies it would make more sense to go after any wizard that couldn't eat him in retaliation. If he had attacked Soulfire, Moriga, possibly even Blacksoul (just as an example) he'd still probably be fine because they couldn't kill him. No one would trust him ever again, but he would still be safe. Again, only assuming that live wizards is what keeps the wall from receding. If killing them doesn't affect the wall then Moriga would still be the best choice because, as I said, she's a coward and admits she's also the weakest of the wizards.

>And nobody did because it was an isolated incident. Nobody investigated in seriousness because it didn't keep happening. If he HAD kept going, he would have drawn more attention, and he wouldn't have enough of an army to deflect the retaliation.
2 is a coincidence, 3 is a pattern. It would be easy for the other wizards to dismiss a second uprising as mere coincidence or as other mortals getting similar ideas. Once one had happened it would prove to people everywhere that it could be done. It wouldn't be surprising if one of the other wizards experienced a rebellion inspired by the Ophians' success, though it would be doomed to fail without antithesis spears.
The other wizards also seemed totally unaware or uninterested by the strange weapons that made Kshaara's downfall possible. A third rebellion might have been suspicious, but a second would not have been outside the realm of possibility. The wizards know that some of them treat their mortals like shit. It would be unsurprising if one of the more oppressive of them also suffered a sudden dethronement.

>The Lord of Marvels is a scheming false prophet, who moved (along with blacksoul) to set up a truce between all of the wizards
This is counterintuitive. If Marv's objective were to aid Oblivion then it would not serve his purposes to help Blacksoul establish a truce and create congeal the wall. At the very least he should have been a passive participant or slightly uncooperative.

>He made a shadowy deal with beings that secrete chaos and despair as a side-effect of their existence.
I do not contend this point, but I do wonder why you believe he is on their side. Unless he has a way of surviving the Oblivion, which so far seems impossible for a wizard, then this would be ensuring his own death. Not a typical objective for a sneaky, power hungry, egomaniac. Whether his intentions are good or evil, it is far more likely that Marv is deceiving the Progenitors to acquire their assistance. Thus far

>He sends people into an area that will kill them under false pretenses so that they can be converted into assassins.
While his objective may be this, it is ultimately up to the individual. They can refuse to either go or they can go and then refuse the task. While by itself this method is more than a little devious, the end it is meant to achieve ultimately determines whether or not it is good or evil.

>If he is not already a big bad, he is certainly no farther from being one than Blacksoul is.
I believe his actions thus far have been somewhere between ambiguous and friendly. Nonetheless, the probability of him turning out to be evil is not zero. If he is a bad guy then yeah, he could certainly be big bad material. I just don't think he is yet.

>Which is why the best option is to reveal other options to blacksoul
This I also agree with. Blacksoul is ruthless and willing to go to unacceptable extremes to achieve his aims, but he is also very powerful. Any alternate solutions we discover will probably have the highest chance of success if we inform Blacksoul of them and acquire his backing. Still, Blacksoul is willing to go too far, so it would be wise to handle him with kid gloves.

>which Marv has had the capacity to do (antithesis and spears for study would have been a big help) but won't because it will hamper his own plans.
Or because he doesn't trust Blacksoul and it would reveal him as the one who instigated the rebellion again Kshaara, which is kind of against the rules. This would only make Blacksoul distrust him further and increase the probability of him actively working again Marv.

>And giving Blacksoul an alternative beyond reaping is a far, far better solution than letting Marv plunge the world into the sea of oblivion.
Of course it is. However this assumes that Marv's goal is to even do that. Unless I missed something you have yet to address the possibility that Marv also lied the to Progenitors and is just using them for his own purposes.

>I DID trust him in the first place. I was one of the people saying 'we should probably trust this guy, he seems legit' up until...
Until now you had only stated that you didn't trust him because he's sneaky and you don't like what he's doing. You had not yet revealed the reason behind these things. Now I can at least understand your perspective and reasoning process.

>That is not the sea of oblivion, that is something that came out of the sea of oblivion.
Which is also unimportant to the point I was trying to make. Staying behind the Sea of Oblivion is normal. We don't care about normal, because that means nothing has changed. Suddenly they've decided to come out now. What we should be wonder is "why?"

>There is no indication that such things haven't been kept in the sea, biding their time, until the point that the plan was to be set in motion.
And there's nothing to indicate that these aren't a new weapon being fielded by the Progenitors either. It's a total unknown. Even if they've been around for decades that is irrelevant because it wasn't the point I was trying to address. My point was that the behavior of the Progenitors has suddenly changed. So far as we know it is impossible for Marv to reliably communicate with them, if at all. This may be indicative of a change in plans on their part.
Kalikissa also only told Spikesby of the antithesis spears, the Red Wizard, his plans, and using the pure antithesis. She made no mention of what the Progenitors were up to. This may be because Spikesby didn't ask about it, because she didn't know, or because she was hiding it. We don't know.

>There is no way to read Majestic Thunderstrike's statement and come away with any idea other than...
This statement is demonstrably false. I read her statement; I came to a different conclusion. That is a matter of fact. Saying that I read her statement and didn't come to a different conclusion does not make it true just because you don't agree with or understand how I did it.

>you are extremely insistent that Marv and the Progenitor's deal has changed.What is your evidence of this? We know that it came into being, and know nothing of it changing after the fact. By all appearances, it is doing nothing BUT moving forward as planned. There is no evidence that anything about it has changed.
I don't believe I ever stated that the "deal" had changed, though if I did then that was an error in communication on my part. I instead posit that the Progenitors have launched a plan of their own, one that is independent of their arrangement with the Red Wizard.
The Red Wizard's deal with the Progenitors is "Make creatures I send your way combat ready against wizards and give them a jar of your blood to use as poison. In exchange I will use them to kill all the wizards and life will be just spiffy for you guys." Well that's the part we know about anyway. That's a far more enticing offer than "Do all that stuff so I can kill just one of them and then you guys are on your own again." Regardless, none of that has changed. Marv having plans of his own, possibly to betray them, or the Progenitors hatching their own diabolical scheme is not mutually exclusive to this agreement.
I was skeptical that Marv ever intended to stick with his deal at all. It seems more likely to me, simply because he is a wizard, that he deceived them from the start.
While you have explained why you believe Marv is being dishonest to everyone else, you have yet to explain why you believe he is being honest with them. So far as we know it is impossible for a wizard to exist inside the Sea of Oblivion and we have no reason to believe that Marv is any exception to this rule yet. Unless he's just an omnicidal maniac we can also reasonably conclude that he isn't suicidal either. It stands to reason that his plan is not in fact to have Oblivion overtake everything, but either destroy it or keep it in a state of balance. Both options would involve betraying the Progenitors in varying degrees.

>The fact that Marv's plan to kill the wizards also furthers the progenitors' apparent goals certainly doesn't help your case.
Although killing off wizards does weaken the Peninsula's hand, we have yet to determine if the congealed wall will weaken when wizards die. I'm sure you can acknowledge that a lot of the wizard aren't very nice folks and, whatever Marv is planning, they would probably stand in his way. In order to succeed, regardless whether or not he's good or evil, he will inevitably have to kill or incapacitate other wizards to ensure they do not interfere.

>Because he DID have to. See above. He needed an army, and he needed the blood to empower them.
Think I adequately addressed this a few paragraphs up.

>Ingratiating the ophians to him and keeping her asleep (remember, his stated goal is to KILL the wizards, not subdue them) allowed him to accomplish both of these goals.
The Ophians have only become ingratiated to him rather recently. If he were intent on killing other wizards it might've been prudent to use the Ophians as couriers between him and the Progenitors. Ophians are fully functional organisms that don't need magic to sustain them. They would be perfectly suited to this task, but as far as we know they never did anything of the sort. If they did we should've expected to see some antithesis spears flying around at the battle of Suri.

>Queenie lives in a fortress castle and Meg doesn't give him an army. Furthermore, the whole 'blood empowerment' probably wouldn't work with meg since her wizard power seems to be making everything around her poisoned and dead. Neither was a more convenient target than K'shaara.
Sorrows is, now that I think about it, probably a poor choice. Based Majestic's first interactions with Sky it would seem her minions have a tough time even conceptualizing rebellion... although they do understand fear. So okay, Sorrows wouldn't be a good test subject.
Meg, though. Meg doesn't seem to have anything protecting her other than the swamp. She also doesn't appear to have any "super wizard senses" like Kshaara demonstrated. She wasn't aware Sky was at her door until she knocked and opened. At this point we don't know how powerful she is, so if she's really strong that would obviously make her a bad test subject, but otherwise she is perfect: lives alone, is very introverted, lives far away so he could avoid suspicion if only because of the distance, and close to Oblivion for a timely way to dispose of evidence. It would be nearly impossible to pin the attack on Marv if it were successful, even if he had to use his own golems. Meg would make the perfect test subject to see if they worked, Moriga would be the perfect choice for when he means business.

>It isn't that consolidating a power base is inherently bad, it is that The Lord of Marvels consolidating a power base for the express purpose of murdering the other wizards so that the Progenitors can win looks bad.
We still don't know if this is his goal. Supposing his intent is too kill all the other wizards assumes he was being honest the Progenitors, which as I said before, he may not have been.

>The Lord of Marvels has explicitly lied about his goals to the PCs and his underlings in the past.
Certainly he has not told us everything, but since it's his secret plan I wouldn't expect him to be forthcoming with the details to just anyone. We can't yet make this call for sure because we still don't know what his goals are in the first place.

>Blacksoul has had complete transparency with his plan as far as his underlings are concerned.
Blacksoul has been honest so far as we know and I won't call that into question. However until I posted Blacksoul's dialogue up there I think maybe a lot of us had the wrong idea about him as well. He has been perfectly honest so far, making no bones about his intent to destroy the Sea of Oblivion. What he failed to mention is that he is willing to sacrifice all life on the face of the planet to do so, which serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever other than satisfying his insane hatred of Oblivion.

>Blacksoul's might have more immediate and obvious consequences, but Blacksoul is far more trustworthy.
This is something I actually agree with. Blacksoul is more trustworthy in that he probably won't lie to us. Outright deception just seems beneath him for some reason. However his methods are something I don't agree with. While it would be wise to keep his plan in motion as a backup, I would rather take a chance on someone we don't quite know yet, who seems friendly enough (though perhaps a bit machiavellian), appears to be helping people, and probably won't resort to exterminating all life to achieve his goals.

>employing every sort of doublethink...
I have employed no doublethink anywhere. Doublethink is asserting to two thing that are mutually exclusive to be true. There is as yet insufficent information to make a 100% accurate judgment call on a lot of things. Most of this stuff I am only 70 to 90 percent sure of. It would be foolish of me not to consider the possibility that I may be wrong. To make my decisions I assume that multiple scenarios could be true, then attempt to come up with a course of action that will achieve the best results in the most scenarios that I believe are most likely.

>Only an absolute moron could interpret majestic thunderstrike's statement as anything but a warning. If you choose to interpret it any other way it is because you are choosing to be a moron.
>Deal with it.
>that she tried to warn sky unless you literally failed to comprehend the words on the screen in front of you.
>you are outright lying to yourself if you continue to claim that A: you are not a goddamn illiterate
I have yet to resort to name calling or insulting your intelligence. It would be great if you could avoid that too.

>Flowering up your insults doesn't change what you're saying, you jackass.
I was not trying to be insulting. I was stating my perspective. Rude and insulting are two different things. I couldn't think of any other way to say it, but perhaps you can? How could I have phrased that differently so it wouldn't have been rude?

>Once the whole world is available to the mortals, they will even have plenty of places to live that are nowhere near the wizards OR progenitors/wind born if they don't want a part of their shenanigans.
I'm not sure it works like that. Based on how new wizards began arising as others died and more Progenitors just fizzled into existence as the Sea of Oblivion expanded, it seems more like there's some kind of natural phenomenon that keeps a certain ratio of wizards per capita.
Given that new wizards were more powerful than the old ones it also seems that there might be a net amount of magic in the world that is somewhat haphazardly distributed among them.
If all things were equal then I expect the Progenitors could easily achieve victory by standing next to the congealed wall in numbers of a hundred or more. The raw antimagic force projected by so many would probably be enough to bulldoze over whatever meager barrier 11 wizards could muster.
I think there is some very important information about how the world itself works that we are missing.

>I have yet to resort to name calling or insulting your intelligence. It would be great if you could avoid that too.

I can't avoid that when you are claiming that statements like

>"He also, uh, said that you are here to betray me. That I should get you to come talk to him without telling you why. I told him I would, but, Sky, I would never betray you. I know you would never do anything to hurt me. I'd rather you accidentally cause the horrible things he said you would in my future than have something bad happen to you,"

are anything but clear warnings, absolute indications that the person saying them thinks that something bad is going to happen to the other.

>Meg, though. Meg doesn't seem to have anything protecting her other than the swamp.

There is nobody there to sway. She sort of seems to kill everything around her, too. Anything that could reach her would have to be a magical creature, but magical creatures can not refuse an order from a wizard.

K'Shaara, on the other hand, lived openly in a city surrounded by people that she got along with swimmingly. She was the only wizard that was really vulnerable to ambush.

>The Ophians have only become ingratiated to him rather recently.

The Ophians were ingratiated with him BEFORE THE REBELLION. There are stockpiles of K'Shaara's blood in his territory already.

>We don't know.

Which makes it conjecture, which is inferior to deduction.

>you have yet to address the possibility that Marv also lied the to Progenitors and is just using them for his own purposes.

It is very possible that he is trying to do that, but that is still ultimately conjecture.

>Unless he has a way of surviving the Oblivion, which so far seems impossible for a wizard, then this would be ensuring his own death.

Unless the progenitors can do something about it and that was a part of the deal.

>In fact Kshaara is perhaps the most dangerous wizard he could have attacked.

hahahahahahahaha no.

>2 is a coincidence, 3 is a pattern.

When there are 10 of you, 2 is a pattern. Furthermore, K'Shaara's lack of contacts and Rixyx's insane withdrawal actually kept K'Shaara's stabbing from becoming known. There weren't that many unconnected stabbables left.

>Actually Sky gave Majestic the impression that she would be spying. "Don't tell [Moriga] what's happening and keep your eyes open," sounds very much like instructions to be a spy.

Except that MT still trusts sky, implying that it was Marv, reading MT's mind, that brought that up.

>but I could be wrong.

You probably are.

Once again, both of you make some excellent points, and both of you are definitely very clever and attentive. To keep people from being confused, I'll clarify a couple things. My comments are in bold


1)
>The Ophians have only become ingratiated to him rather recently.

The Ophians were ingratiated with him BEFORE THE REBELLION. There are stockpiles of K'Shaara's blood in his territory already.

I don't know if this was unclear from the update, but that is the blood the refugees managed to haul out of Suri. Lord of Marvels didn't have any of K'shaara's blood with him. They also didn't know he'd had anything to do with the original rebellion until just recently.

2) K'Shaara's lack of contacts and Rixyx's insane withdrawal actually kept K'Shaara's stabbing from becoming known.

This is actually correct. In the first chapter, Blacksoul didn't know that she'd even been stabbed, and it had happened at least fifty years ago. Many of the other wizards routinely communicate with each other.

>>335453
>I can't avoid that...
Actually it's quite easy. Just don't do it.

>There is nobody there to sway.
The context I provided was for a weapons test, not conquest. The point of using it on Meg first would be to confirm the things work, not be build an army.

>K'Shaara, on the other hand, lived openly in a city surrounded by people that she got along with swimmingly. She was the only wizard that was really vulnerable to ambush.
And Moriga. Who is also weaker, cowardly, and has more combat capable creatures surounding her.

>The Ophians were ingratiated with him BEFORE THE REBELLION. There are stockpiles of K'Shaara's blood in his territory already.
Tha Bawss beat me to this one. Guess I don't have to say anything. Nuts.

>It is very possible that he is trying to do that, but that is still ultimately conjecture.
Based on the information available to us now it does not make sense for Marv to want the Sea of Oblivion consume the Peninsula. Supporting details exist for this assessment.
Supporting details for a counter claim: that the Progenitors are capable of altering wizards in some way to allow them to survive inside the Sea do not exist. Other than covering themselves in soul goop, which have no reason to believe anyone other than Blacksoul knows about, there is no way at all for a wizard to survive inside the Sea.

>Unless the progenitors can do something about it and that was a part of the deal.
Aside from covering him in soul goop, which would likely strip him of most of his power inside the Sea, there is zero evidence, nothing even hinted at, that would indicate they have this ability.
I ebelieve you stated it quite adequately earlier: "Which makes it conjecture, which is inferior to deduction."

>hahahahahahahaha no.
I said "In fact Kshaara is perhaps the most dangerous wizard he could have attacked" within a specific context. That context was assuming that the Wall becomes weaker and moves in as wizards die and their magic dissipates. What other wizard do we know of that can kill another and prevent the net loss of magic power in the process? At the time of the rebellion it was only Kshaara. No one else had a habit of eating people and, so far as we know, that's about the only way to take a wizard's power and kill them at the same time. There may be other ways, yes, but so far none have even been hinted at.
Outside of this context, that is if we assume that the Wall does not weaken and recede as wizards die, then certainly there are a few more dangerous choices.

>When there are 10 of you, 2 is a pattern.
When there are 10 of you, 2 is not a pattern. It's just really, really worrying. This is semantic, though.

>K'Shaara's lack of contacts and Rixyx's insane withdrawal actually kept K'Shaara's stabbing from becoming known.
Was going to address this one, but Tha Bawss also beat me to it. Point conceded. I still maintain that Moriga would've been a better choice, however. She is a coward. It took some coaxing and the promise of protection to get her to say anything and even then she was hesitant. A sudden attack on her, success or fail, would've yielded few clues as to the identity of the culprit.

>Except that MT still trusts sky, implying that it was Marv, reading MT's mind, that brought that up.
I do not agree with this assessment, but there really isn't any way to debate it either. We can't read minds and we don't know what was said. This one is unsolvable.

>>335455
>and it had happened at least fifty years ago
Ah! Finally some information on the timeline. Can you provide any other details about the Peninsula's history? Like how long has it been just the Peninsula? How long has Moriga been hosting abandoned creatures?

>>335456

>The point of using it on Meg first would be to confirm the things work, not be build an army.

And you would have to actually get the weapons to her to do that, and there is nothing that lives in her swamp that can be persuaded. Sending something there will just end up with a dead something. K'Shaara was far more vulnerable than Meg.

>And Moriga. Who is also weaker, cowardly, and has more combat capable creatures surounding her.

Creatures which would be far less likely to turn on her. You'll notice that MT didn't turn on Sky when he tried to get her to, either.

>Which makes it conjecture, which is inferior to deduction."

Exactly. Speculation on Marv's endgame is almost entirely conjecture, the very fact that he IS allied with the progenitors is extremely relevant to his trustworthiness. And if he isn't trustworthy, I am not willing to put the world anywhere near his hands.

>I still maintain that Moriga would've been a better choice, however.

Moriga is on friendly terms with Flails Breaker, who would probably be a lot more direct than Rixyx if she were to vanish.

>This one is unsolvable.

No, it is obvious. You are just ignoring it because it is an extremely damning incident for the 'Marv is totes a friendly and reasonable guy' stance.

One more question for you: Why is it better for Marv to commit genocide than for Blacksoul to commit a large-scale holocaust?

Nothing else you said was really worth addressing.

>>335456
That is actually in Book 1. The Ophian Adept tells Ria and Spikesby about it when they first visit Suri.

There is no reason for me to not exposit a rough timeline here though. All of these points have been made at some point during the quest, so a player could have put this back together by now:

1: War is beginning. Wizards fight Wizards.

2: Moriga runs away.

3: Flails Breaker, Soulfire, and Flare become Wizards. They are extremely powerful.

4: Antithesis - "The Wind" comes into the world, along with the creatures known as Windborn. They begin to kill Wizards

5: Progenitors appear

6: More and more wizards are killed as the Sea of Oblivion covers more and more of the earth.

7: The remaining wizards broker a truce. They formulate a plan to seal off the peninsula from the rest of the Sea by congealing a Wall.

8: Moriga shows back up

9: Lord of Marvels contacts the Progenitors and receives the ore infused with Antithesis

9: The Wizards carry out their plan and then divide the peninsula up into separate territories.

10: Soulfire makes his original race do not steal

11: K'shaara makes Ophians

12: Soulfire Kills his original race do not steal and makes Blockheads instead

13: Ophians rapidly begin to acquire souls. They rebel against K'shaara

14: The events of the Quest happen.

>>335458
>there is nothing that lives in her swamp that can be persuaded.
The purpose of a weapons test is to the effectiveness of a weapon. Persuading isn't necessary. It's a weapons test.

>Sending something there will just end up with a dead something.
Sky managed to go land in the swamp with barely any incident. Why would something made by Marv be any different?

>K'Shaara was far more vulnerable than Meg.
Kshaara was surrounded by fairly loyal citizens that she apparently took rather good care of. To get to Kshaara the citizens first had to be turned without her noticing, then weapons had to be shipped in, then an attacked planned, and finally executed.
Meg has only vast tracts of swamp, dead trees, and decaying skeletons that barely manged to hinder Sky, who isn't really designed for combat either. A simple "walk in, bypass undead defenses, and kill her" approach is all that is needed here. No lengthy preparations or possibility of being discovered.

>Creatures which would be far less likely to turn on her.
Because... why? Because she got along with swimmingly? By your own admission Kshaara took good care of her people. More than that, she even claims to love them, calling them her children.

>You'll notice that MT didn't turn on Sky when he tried to get her to, either.
Yet the Ophians seemed perfectly happy to turn Kshaara into a pincushion and live off her corpse for five decades; one of her original adepts even calling her a tyrant or something. You're saying Marv can convince an entire society that their apparently benevolent caretaker is a cruel tyrant... but he can't get a single creature to tell a good enough lie to get a friend to walk through some doors? Very inconsistent.
This also raise questions as to why the Ophians actually rebelled. We haven't really asked them yet. The one Ophian adept even referred to her rule as tyranny, but wasn't specific. We don't know their reasoning or their grudges, even if they nothing more than the result of brainwashing. We should really ask some more in depth questions about this.

>Exactly. Speculation on Marv's endgame is almost entirely conjecture
Yet you seem convinced that his endgame is genocide. Do you admit this is conjecture as well?

>the very fact that he IS allied with the progenitors
Again you assert that he is lying through his teeth to the peninsula, but is totally honest and devoted to the Sea of Oblivion. This is very counterintuitive.

>is extremely relevant to his trustworthiness.
We have yet to determine if he is lying or telling the truth to the Progenitors. Being that he stands to gain the most, whether he is good or evil, from deceiving them and destroying them, it is unreasonable to discount this possibility, even more so to give greater weight to an outcome that may or may not be possible and may require giving up some of his power (assimilating with the Progenitors.)

>Moriga is on friendly terms with Flails Breaker
If by friendly terms you mean she occasionally stops by to chat, then yes.

>who would probably be a lot more direct than Rixyx if she were to vanish.
What? Xix loved Kshaara so much he literally went nuts when she "died." It took him fifty years to break into Suri and retrieve her. Flails just talks with Moriga every once in a while. Why would he come rushing to save her and what makes you think he could do it in less time?
That assumes he even cares enough do to something. Occasional chit chat does not mean undying loyalty. Most of his time seems to be spent screwing, raging, and apparently lusting after Radia.
He would also have to pass through the territories of at least 2 other wizards, which is apparently not okay according to their collective pact, to reach Moriga's, wreak some vengeance, and investigate. He also seems pretty thick, so even if he made it that far the chances of him figuring out who caused it all is close to zero.

>No, it is obvious. You are just ignoring it...
No. I interpret it differently than you do. I cannot interpret something I ignore.

>Why is it better for Marv to commit genocide
I reiterate: "Speculation on Marv's endgame is almost entirely conjecture." So it's not conjecture when you say it?

>Blacksoul to commit a large-scale holocaust?
See, Blacksoul will commit genocide, actually will snuff out all life on the planet if he has to, and we know it. Right now his plans are smaller, but big enough that I find them unacceptable except as a very last resort. We have no idea haw far Marv is willing to go, but it really can't be any farther than Blacksoul is.

>Nothing else you said was really worth addressing.
Then you concede all points not addressed? Or you just give up on them?

>>335476
Uh, just wanted to say something here. K'shaara ATE her servants. Regularly.

>>335477
Actually, according to Kshaara...
>>323780
Perhaps not the most objective source of information on this particular subject, but she was talking directly to the players, so... I dunno, you decide for yourself.

>Why would something made by Marv be any different?

Because Any attack by a magical creature is stopped cold by a single word. That is why.

>No lengthy preparations or possibility of being discovered.

Exactly how aware IS meg of what enters her swamp?

Also, what if, and this is a pretty crazy what if here I know, but what if it was more than just a weapons test?

>You're saying Marv can convince an entire society that their apparently benevolent caretaker is a cruel tyrant... but he can't get a single creature to tell a good enough lie to get a friend to walk through some doors?

He had a lot longer to work his mentalism on the Ophians, and clearly engaged in some sort of shenanigans (he even claims it was mentalism!) to start giving them souls before the whole 'rebellion' thing.

>Yet you seem convinced that his endgame is genocide. Do you admit this is conjecture as well?

Not at all, because killing all of the wizards is his stated goal.

>This is very counterintuitive.

We do not know the full nature of his deal with the progenitors. We have no evidence that he is lying to them, and plenty that he has been lying to the mortals of the peninsula.

>He also seems pretty thick, so even if he made it that far the chances of him figuring out who caused it all is close to zero.

It doesn't matter if he would figure out what caused it, he would raise enough of a ruckus to let people know that it had happened at all, which is the exact opposite of what rixyx did.

>I cannot interpret something I ignore.

You can not interpret text at all, actually. What other interpretation IS there for MT's statement? Not 'maybe some nebulous thing other than a warning,' if she is not telling sky that she thinks that Marv doesn't have sky's best interests in mind what IS she saying?

>"Speculation on Marv's endgame is almost entirely conjecture." So it's not conjecture when you say it?

Once again, genocide is his current stated goal.

>See, Blacksoul will commit genocide, actually will snuff out all life on the planet if he has to, and we know it.

As determined by a clearly emotional and empassioned diatribe in ITQ. Nobody ever uses hyperbole when they are angry.

Not to mention that there is no indication that he even CAN do that.

>Or you just give up on them?

They are either self-evident and obvious (Because they're 'lol we don't really know' stuff) or they're stupid enough that I'm giving up on you.

Epiphany at work today:

It is extremely likely that Marv is actually telling the truth, and that the wall will not fall if a wizard is killed. Blacksoul was a big player in making it, and he was paranoid enough to ensure that killing a wizard or two wouldn't cause the wall to be destroyed.

To support this, he even mentioned that Rixyx may need to be 'dealt with' after the K'Shaara shenanigans. If a wizard's death would destroy the wall, he wouldn't even consider that.

However, there is a line early in the quest, one of the first concerning blacksoul. That line concerns how he spends all of his time in his laboratory, trying to push back the wall of shadow. Not to eliminate it entirely (he wouldn't consider that until he got the chance to study the soul monster), but to push it.

This means that, since Blacksoul knows how the wall works, it is not static. It will most likely not break, but it can be moved.

Kalikissa mentioned that Marv came to see the progenitors. It is unlikely that they were at the wall waiting, or that a messenger was sent (she did say that he came personally, after all). Further, there was clearly a massive conflict between the progenitors and the wizards that led to the current state of affairs.

This means that it is not simply the presence or lack of the magic emanations of the wizards or anti-magic emanations of the progenitors that limit their movement, there clearly MUST be ways for the two to approach each other for there to have been a war in the first place.

Therefore, the wall's purpose is simply to hinder movement from one 'bubble' to the other. It is even mentioned as 'congealed' from the barrier where the two bubbles met.

Since the wall is not static, and we understand the basic functionality of the magic/anti-magic territory bubbles, it can be surmised that in order to move the wall one would need to change the balance of power between the wizards and progenitors. Killing a progenitor, as an example, would push the wall out. Killing a wizard, however, will push the wall IN. The pressure will no longer be 'equalized' in either event and the barrier will naturally shift to account for this.

This means that while Lord of Marvels would still be able to maintain a 'bubble' with all of the other wizards dead (in theory) as the congealed wall would remain, the amount of livable (as I consider the existence within the sea of oblivion to be significantly less than life) terrain available to mortals will summarily decrease as well. And if the progenitors ARE hatching their own plan independent of Marv's Deal, it will become prohibitively difficult to prevent a handful of soul monsters from crashing through the wall and genociding all of the mortal life within the much smaller area with only one wizard (whose specialty is mentalism) there to try to prevent it.

Additionally, there appear to be adverse effects on wizards for being too close to other wizards. If the wall begins to shrink, things get worse for everyone.

This is a tremendously good reason to NOT kill any other wizards. If you really believe that there is a significant risk that the soulmonsters are NOT a part of Marv's plan, it is utterly crucial that no wizards (not even Marv) be slain until the goals of the progenitors can be ascertained.

Additionally: The Lord of Marvels mentioned nothing about Suri to Spikesby, which doesn't mesh with what he told the Ophians about its defense.

>>335490
Deal with doesn't necessarily mean kill though. If he were to simply "Kill" Ryxix like Kshaara was killed by the ophians then that would quite effectively neutralise Ryxix. And it's unlikely that anyone would come to save Ryxix since nobody feels strongly enough about him to do such a thing.

>>335490
>This is a tremendously good reason to NOT kill any other wizards. If you really believe that there is a significant risk that the soulmonsters are NOT a part of Marv's plan, it is utterly crucial that no wizards (not even Marv) be slain until the goals of the progenitors can be ascertained.

I win. There is no further need to discuss anything unless you want to.

>>335525

>I win.

What?

Nono, you see, that is only the result of YOUR speculations. helping Marv AT ALL is a terrible idea under your own criteria.

You have established a big pile of contradictory information and spontaneously declared yourself the 'winner,' which pretty much shows that you ARE in fact an utter moron and weren't worth discussing anything with in the first place. I am disappointed by this turn of events.

>>335490
>trying to push back
This implies that he has not found a way to move it. It does not imply that it can be moved.

However, you did say that Blacksoul was considering killing Ryxix. This in itself suggests that it is safe to kill Wizards. Your opposing conclusion takes a rather roundabout path of logic that I think is unlikely to be true. Keep it simple.

But yeah, LoM has lied before and is not infallible. He isn't truly predicting the future- if he is, he sucks at it. I mean, all he'd need to do is send a message to one of Blacksouls' group to tell them about the giant creature being made in the desert and they would've done something about it.

>>335533

>It does not imply that it can be moved.

If it can not be moved, Blacksoul would know. It's his wall, after all.

>However, you did say that Blacksoul was considering killing Ryxix.

It took something as drastic as the current situation for Blacksoul to even CONSIDER that another wizard may need to be 'dealt with.' It would probably take some time for the magical pressure from the now ex-wizard to dissipate, but in the meantime all of the wizards' territories would need to be redrafted to manage the now-decreased space. It would be a massive diplomatic undertaking between a large group of people who can not meet with each other for any significant period of time.

>>335529

>What?

For about the first day my objective was to convince you of my point of view. I have made every effort to understand your points of view, have made reasonable suggestions and counterclaims (or at least Tha Bawss thought so), and have even acknowledged those of yours that I felt had merit, even if I did not believe they were true. You have done little of this in return. At every turn you have said "You're wrong. I'm right. There isn't even a chance that you are correct and I am mistaken." Or words to that effect. Based upon this behavior, your temper, and frequent use of insults I estimated the probability of this occurring was so close to zero that I should discount it altogether.

Thus I changed my objective from "get him to see things my way" to "Ensure Marv's safety until further information can be gathered."

I have just accomplished this objective. You now appear to believe that keeping Marv alive, at least for now, is a good idea (as I do) if only because we can still learn potentially valuable information from him and because his death could potentially cause severe instability in the region. Worse still: Blacksoul is awfully close to the Wall. If even one wizard dies that might be all the leeway it needs to overcome his lair. All his research, all his resources would be gone. Blacksoul too, maybe, if he doesn't see it coming soon enough.

I am not saying you lose. Your condition of defeat would probably be something like "This other guy has convinced me. I have to admit I'm wrong." That hasn't occurred.

But my victory condition has been met. Therefore I win.

>Thus I changed my objective from "get him to see things my way" to "Ensure Marv's safety until further information can be gathered."

But I don't think that it should, because he is trying to kill the other wizards. Everyone needs to be protected from him because it would be better for him to die than for everyone else to die.

>You now appear to believe that keeping Marv alive, at least for now, is a good idea (as I do)

Nope. My entire point was that, by YOUR logic (not all of which I agree with), killing ANY wizard is bad and helping Marv with anything is the absolute worst thing that you can do.

>Your condition of defeat

You say that like I HAVE conditions of victory and defeat. You DO understand that the point of a discussion is not to 'win,' right?

>>335543
>But I don't think that it should, because he is trying to kill the other wizards. Everyone needs to be protected from him because it would be better for him to die than for everyone else to die.
It would seem you haven't understood much of anything that I have said thus far.

>Nope.
Except.
>It took something as drastic as the current situation for Blacksoul to even CONSIDER that another wizard may need to be 'dealt with.' It would probably take some time for the magical pressure from the now ex-wizard to dissipate, but in the meantime all of the wizards' territories would need to be redrafted to manage the now-decreased space. It would be a massive diplomatic undertaking between a large group of people who can not meet with each other for any significant period of time.
Seems to indicate you think a wizard dying would be a bad idea. Marv is a wizard. If he dies this will happen, or at least you believe it will. Unless you believe massive geopolitical upheaval is a good thing and that it can only help Spikesby achieve his "happily ever after" or whichever ending you are aiming for.

>My entire point was that, by YOUR logic (not all of which I agree with), killing ANY wizard is bad and helping Marv with anything is the absolute worst thing that you can do.
If this is the case then I don't think you've understood even a small amount of my reasoning thus far.

>You DO understand that the point of a discussion is not to 'win,' right?
The point of a debate is to discuss the merit of conflicting ideas and eventually settle on the most reasonable conclusion. In some cases this doesn't mean there is a victor, because both parties may only be half right or no conclusion was reached. Even so, winning is still possible even if that is not the purpose.
In this case I was no longer holding a debate after the first day.

If you would like to continue, then that's fine, but otherwise my interest has waned. You too easily lose your temper, resort to insults and personal attacks (which is certainly not how debating is done), and have yet to provide any positive feedback that I can recall. I realized talking with you would not be productive almost from the start, but I have kept with it until now because it was at least somewhat amusing and I had an objective. Now It's wednesday. It's halfway through the week, I've accomplished my goal, your demeanor has not changed, and I'm tired of it.
But I will still continue if you want. I just won't be as polite.

>>335549

>Unless you believe massive geopolitical upheaval is a good thing

It is a better thing than any endgame we can actually deduce from helping Marv. I'm not willing to gamble on a completely nebulous future that may come about if the genocidal liar actually has some ultimately good plan of which there is no actual sign.

>If this is the case then I don't think you've understood even a small amount of my reasoning thus far.

Given that you redefine your goals and reasoning whenever it becomes inconvenient to continue, it will basically be impossible for anyone to truly understand your reasoning.

>and I had an objective. Now It's wednesday. It's halfway through the week, I've accomplished my goal,

No, you haven't. You redefined your goal to attempt to save face, and even your redefined goal hasn't been met, as there is no conceivable way to stop Marv from trying to kill the other wizards without killing him, and the fewer wizards killed the better things are for the mortals.

And that is the thing you are ignoring because it is so utterly inconvenient for you. If left alone, Marv WILL attempt to kill the other wizards. If killing wizards is bad, the very best Marv should hope for from the players is not receiving any aid at all, certainly not being helped with anything. We have nothing to gain from speaking with him and quite literally everything to lose.

>But I will still continue if you want. I just won't be as polite.

You haven't been any more polite than I have since the fucking beginning of this. You have dismissed points without even an attempt to address them and accused people of bias non-stop. I might be more direct about it, but that is ultimately irrelevant.

>>335552
>You haven't been any more polite than I have since the fucking beginning of this.
I don't recall insulting your intelligence, swearing at you, dismissing you claims as moronic, or completely ignoring something you've said. You, on the other hand, have done all of this.

>You have dismissed points without even an attempt to address them
If I have forgotten to address some of your claims, then point them out and I will do just that, but as far as I know I haven't ignored anything.

>accused people of bias non-stop.
You mean I accused *you.*

>Given that you redefine your goals and reasoning whenever it becomes inconvenient to continue
I redefined my goal on Monday. It has remained the same since then. I did this because I realized it was probably unachievable.
I believe my reasoning has been consistent. Have I mistakenly contradicted myself somewhere? If so then where?

>>335538
>If it can not be moved, Blacksoul would know. It's his wall, after all.

It is? Where is that said? Actually even if it is, he should know how to move it, if he knows everything about it. Why is he 'trying' and not 'doing with some difficulty'?

>It took something as drastic as the current situation for Blacksoul to even CONSIDER that another wizard may need to be 'dealt with.'
Drastic? Uh, all Ryxix did was break the treaty by invading the town. What's drastic about the situation? Compared to what other Wizards do every day it's not a huge deal that one town was mostly-destroyed. I'm disagreeing with you in the severity of all your claims.

Also why do you say wizards can't meet eachother? I thought they stayed apart like that because of the treaty. Nothing bad happened when Ryxix and K'shaara met in the city, and nothing bad happened BEFORE either, when Ryxix was still sane and they were meeting regularly.

>I don't recall insulting your intelligence, swearing at you, dismissing you claims as moronic, or completely ignoring something you've said.

You certainly haven't sworn at me.

>If I have forgotten to address some of your claims, then point them out and I will do just that,

Every time I have done that you have responded with 'I already suitably addressed this.' Typing words after some greentext doesn't mean you are actually addressing the statement.

Why on earth should I believe that you're going to change your tune now?

>You mean I accused *you.*

Of course that is what I mean, you dense motherfucker. I am a person too, and I wouldn't deign to become offended on someone else's behalf.

>I redefined my goal on Monday. It has remained the same since then.

And you have still not achieved it. Instead you came in and decided to declare 'victory' in lieu of actually responding to anything.

>I believe my reasoning has been consistent. Have I mistakenly contradicted myself somewhere?

It isn't so much that you have contradicted yourself as that you have utterly failed to interpret direct statements and then built upon your horrendously flawed assumptions; and you are unable to accept that your initial assumptions might be flawed because you have already formualated other hypotheses based on them.

The conclusions you have drawn from several things, notably my treatise on killing wizards and the wall; as well Majestic Thunderstrike's warning, prove one of three things.

1: You are a fucking moron.
2: You are unable to actually follow a logical progression.
3: You are ignoring everything that is inconvenient.

Since you claim that 1 and 3 are not the case, 2 is the remaining option. You do not understand the basic logical constructs that allow contradictions to be determined.

And I'm pretty much done here. You aren't even talking about Bite Quest at this point, you are just arguing with me. No better than when Shii hopped into the thread. If you just want to bicker with me because you're mad that I don't accept your claims of victory because I am not playing by your insane rules; come on into the IRC channels. I'll bicker all you want!

If you want to continue ACTUALLY DISCUSSING BITE QUEST in the thread, I'll probably be willing to come back and discuss. I don't even care if you insult me while you're doing it!

But if you're just going to redefine your goals like a bitch and try to start a fight, there are better venues.

>>335560

>Why is he 'trying' and not 'doing with some difficulty'?

Because he can't move it just by wanting to? He would need to find a way to either increase the strength of the wizards or decrease the strength of the progenitors.

>Drastic? Uh, all Ryxix did was break the treaty by invading the town. What's drastic about the situation? Compared to what other Wizards do every day it's not a huge deal that one town was mostly-destroyed.

He invaded a town in another wizard's territory with a war-scale siege monster. Blacksoul also didn't know the circumstances behind K'Shaara's plight.

If an open invasion of someone else's territory isn't drastic, what the fuck is?

>Compared to what other Wizards do every day it's not a huge deal that one town was mostly-destroyed.

Name me one fucking wizard who does anything EVEN APPROACHING this scale on a daily basis.

You seem to have a tremendously disproportionate idea of just how bad the wizards actually are.

>Nothing bad happened when Ryxix and K'shaara met in the city

Rixyx certainly seemed a fuckload crazier when he was in K'Shaara's domain than he was either before or after that. Even after the invasion when he was still extra-huge, he was far less of a stammering wreck when he was in his own territory.

>You certainly haven't sworn at me.
Or any of that other stuff. And I forgot to put snide in there too. I admit I've done that a couple times, though.

>Every time I have done that you have responded with 'I already suitably addressed this.'
Why did you not bring it up, then? If I thought I had addressed something when I did not, why didn't you say "No you didn't?"
Since you obviously believe this is the case, what haven't I addressed?

>Of course that is what I mean
People. Plural. This was incorrect. If you had said "me" I would not have brought it up.

Marv is wizard.
>all of the wizards' territories would need to be redrafted to manage the now-decreased space. It would be a massive diplomatic undertaking between a large group of people who can not meet with each other for any significant period of time.
Killing a wizard is bad.
So you do or do not want to kill Marv?

>It isn't so much that you have contradicted yourself as that you have utterly failed to interpret direct statements and then built upon your horrendously flawed assumptions; and you are unable to accept that your initial assumptions might be flawed because you have already formualated other hypotheses based on them.
That's odd. I was thinking the same of you.

>you dense motherfucker.
>1: You are a fucking moron.
>2: You are unable to actually follow a logical progression.
>like a bitch and try to start a fight
It seems you have lost your temper again.

>>335565
Rixyx certainly seemed a fuckload crazier when he was in K'Shaara's domain than he was either before or after that. Even after the invasion when he was still extra-huge,

What? We haven't seen Ryxix since then. I thought it was fairly obvious that he was extra-crazy when he was rescuing K'shaara because it was an extremely stressful situation, and besides, WE made him worse with our suggestions. Plus he kinda was crazy before that, just not obviously so when Spikesby was visiting. He was, after all, in a comfortable, non-stressful situation then, speaking to a subordinate.

>If an open invasion of someone else's territory isn't drastic, what the fuck is?
You said CURRENT SITUATION. The invasion happened IN THE PAST.

>Name me one fucking wizard who does anything EVEN APPROACHING this scale on a daily basis.
I am referring to stuff they do in their own territory, and I'm betting you'll discount that offhand, but okay.
Queen of Sorrows blows up shit whenever it doesn't follow her rules.
Radia lures mortals to her glass mountain so that they die on its sharp edges, and sends her minions out to kill anyone wearing a mask.
Ryxix ambushes caravans that pass through his territory.
Flails Breaker lets his creations run wild, fucking up shit (like that one town)
Blacksoul has weird magical phenomena in his territory that kicks the shit out of anyone that goes in there, apparently. Or perhaps that was one of those false rumor things?
Sure, it's a big deal that he invaded with basically a small army. I'm saying it's not so unusual for Wizards to kill mortals, and he didn't even kill that many of them tbh. He also left afterwards. The after-effects are not significant enough for Blacksoul to be concerned with them. It was just the breaking of the treaty, which may have made Blacksoul think that Ryxix had become too unstable. That is the only 'current situation' I can think of that would lead him to want to kill him.

Also since I feel like it:
>I am a person too, and I wouldn't deign to become offended on someone else's behalf.
So 'people' can refer to just you, and you don't give a shit about other people? My opinion of you lowers the more I am exposed to you. I wonder what you would think if I said you were sub-human?

>>335570

>What? We haven't seen Ryxix since then.

K'Shaara intermission.

>You said CURRENT SITUATION. The invasion happened IN THE PAST.

The invasion of Suri happened in the last few months. Blacksoul's statement was in response to information about it.

Are you seriously that retarded?

>I am referring to stuff they do in their own territory, and I'm betting you'll discount that offhand, but okay.

None of that approaches the scale of a full-scale military assault on a city in another wizard's territory.

>and you don't give a shit about other people?

I have enough respect for other people to allow them to get offended for themselves. I don't think that they are so weak and incompetent as to need me to become offended on their behalf.

I wouldn't expect you to understand that, though.

Hey Bawss I have a few more questions inspired by the recent drama, but they may require a bit of "Word of God," as you put it, so I'm not expecting much in the way of answers. I was just too curious not to ask. Anyway...

I can guess that all the main characters dying, or maybe just Spikesby, would end the story, but can you reveal any winning conditions? Maybe just some hints? Or if that's prying too much, can you instead elaborate a little on what major events won't stop the story, while leaving the endings ambiguous?

K'shaara is the most powerful mentalist there is, but she can't read minds. Is this because mentalism just doesn't work like that? To provide some context: She had to ask Glory questions directly and use her power to, albeit unsuccessfully, coerce answers out of her. Is this because Mentalism powers are a one way street? That they can only impose information or directives on another mind, not "take" from them?

I understand that characters can and will lie in the Inside the Quest threads to avoid revealing information on the story, but in the case when Blacksoul said this...
>>329583
...it doesn't reveal any information about the stoy, but rather reveals an aspect of his character. Can we assume this is accurate? Would you be willing confirm that it is?

I have a few more questions, too, but I didn't want to be annoying by asking them all at once.

I'm going to go through and answer a bunch of questions:

>Zorsuz: Why do your "boons" have such heavy disadvantages? Do you think power only comes with great sacrifice, and wish to teach that to your Adepts?

Blacksoul has never been fond of adepts. He would rather be left alone. A heavy price, almost a curse, keeps him from being bothered by fools seeking power.

>Does this mean "Dreaming" weapons could also be made, similar in nature to the Antithesis spears?

The spears infused with K'shaara's blood would probably basically be this.

>Hmm, how much time passed between Soulfire creating the blockheads and his realization that he forgot to give them reproductive systems?

Soulfire, being perfect at making life, would never forget something so obvious. There was ~60 years between his original creation and the blockheads.

Or rather, how many attempts at creating life did he have to make before he remembered them?

>What will end the quest? Why can't K'shaara read minds. ITQ Blacksoul.

Spikesby's death will not end the quest. If every character that has been controlled up to this point dies (minus the snakewisp from the K'shaara Intermission), the quest will end. There will still be an epilogue.

I can't say anything else without giving away information that I don't want to reveal.

K'shaara can almost certainly read minds. She chooses to make people love her and reveal information voluntarily. The suggesters reacted like a zombie instead of an adoring slave, which made K'shaara assume that Glory had been altered in some way, but the answer given wasn't really satisfactory, so she ate Glory to figure out what was going on. Glory was immune to Mentalism temporarily by using the Blood.

Everything revealed in ITQ is accurate for that character, as if they were speaking to a neutral party (So, it's their perspective on the situation).

I don't mind questions. I just won't answer if I don't want to.

Okay then Bawss, here's a few more questions.

1: Is it just my imagination, or does the Sea of Oblivion not like water? If it's covered the entire world then I would think it might be hugging the coastline too, given how close the land border is to the wizards' territories.

2: We missed our chance to get spikesby all changed up by Ul Kerrul of the Sinking Sign. Can you shed some light on what sort of changes Spikesby would have undergone?

3: I doubt I'll get an answer to this one. Flails is the most talented at transmutation. It's beyond the Progenitors power to change little Spikesby, but could he do it?

4: Been going over the quest a lot today, preparing for something I may or may not post, but as I was reviewing the Intermission a random question popped into my head when I passed that creepy "Sea of Blood" image: Is K'shaara bigger on the inside? And where did all that blood come from?

5: Was that the end of book 5? Just wanna know if I should be returning to the old thread or looking for Book 6, come the weekend.

6: I asked a while ago how you organized your quest info, but now I'm curious of what you use to organize it. So what program or programs do you use, what do you use them for, and why do you use them over others?

7: How did you go about planning Bite Quest? What was your starting point? Your inspiration? How long did it take to flesh out the world and then plan the story? Or did you plan a story first, then fit it into the setting?

>1: Is it just my imagination, or does the Sea of Oblivion not like water? If it's covered the entire world then I would think it might be hugging the coastline too, given how close the land border is to the wizards' territories.

This appears to be true, based on the map and what Moriga said.

>2: We missed our chance to get Spikesby all changed up by Ul Kerrul of the Sinking Sign. Can you shed some light on what sort of changes Spikesby would have undergone?

I'll answer questions like these after the quest is complete.

>3: I doubt I'll get an answer to this one. Flails is the most talented at transmutation. It's beyond the Progenitors power to change little Spikesby, but could he do it?

If Spikesby is just a regular mortal creature, then it makes sense that he could.

>4: Been going over the quest a lot today, preparing for something I may or may not post, but as I was reviewing the Intermission a random question popped into my head when I passed that creepy "Sea of Blood" image: Is K'shaara bigger on the inside? And where did all that blood come from?

Much like Ryxix, K'shaara's body has changed. She appears to bleed constantly (or ooze blood) from several of her old wounds.

>5: Was that the end of book 5? Just wanna know if I should be returning to the old thread or looking for Book 6, come the weekend.

Same thread

>6: I asked a while ago how you organized your quest info, but now I'm curious of what you use to organize it. So what program or programs do you use, what do you use them for, and why do you use them over others?

New Text Document.txt and a sketchbook. The sketchbook has the map and the character designs in it. The .txt document is a highly sophisticated word-containing device with all my notes.

>7: How did you go about planning Bite Quest? What was your starting point? Your inspiration? How long did it take to flesh out the world and then plan the story? Or did you plan a story first, then fit it into the setting?

I came up with the protagonist first, then the setting. I made Bite Quest in response to a lot of the quests I saw on the board at the time. A lot of the quests at the time had *romantic subtext, *hugging, *puzzles, *talking to solve problems, *Inventory management, and *mostly interior/underground settings, so I made a protagonist that *Has no genitals *Cannot hug *Cannot talk *cannot easily manipulate objects *Has no inventory and almost all of the settings are *outside.

I talked over my setting and story ideas with a friend of mine and he helped me straighten some stuff out/gave me some ideas for a couple of the Wizards. I'd say I dicked around for about a week before I actually decided to start, but I didn't spend that time working dedicatedly or anything. It'd probably be about 4~6 hours of work total, maybe.

>>335674
>A lot of the quests at the time had tromantic subtext, to Spikesby has no genitals
>If anyone can transmute Spikesby, it's Flails Breaker

:3c

>>335675

Actually, just about any of the wizards could probably transmute spikesby at this point. He isn't inherently anti-magic, he's just mortal.

In theory, anyway.

Hey, because I don't feel like reading the huge bitchfest, can someone (someone who wasn't part of the argument) summarize the conclusions that were made from it?

Like, what the most likely things are to be true, stuff like that. Then maybe we can continue with some civil discussion!

Thanks for the answers Bawss. Wanted to ask clarification on one thing and I think you forgot one, too.

So K'shaara is bleeding internally, then? Ouch. Seems like that might cause problems even for a wizard.

You didn't say if she was bigger on the inside, though.

>>335691
Why on earth would she be bigger on the inside?

GREEN!!IzZTIxBQH1 2010/10/30(Sat)08:37 No. 25914 ID: f82d85
File 128845302695.jpg - (19.17KB , 300x300 , biggerontheinside.jpg )

>>335713

It's bigger on the inside!

>>335713
I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. It just occurred to me and I had to ask. Like I said: random question.

>>335714
You deserve a cookie.

Would using the antithesis on spikespy kill him if he were magic again? Or would this break that magic, or just make him terribly sick?
Either by smearing some on him or, God forbid, taking a sip form the jar?

>>335755
I hope you don't honestly think I'm going to answer this question.

There is a decent amount of talking and exposition that can happen, so I am going to update slowly over the course of the week like I did with the Moriga chapter.

>>335768
I was so certain you wouldn't that I put off asking it for 4 days. I still had to try, though. Sucks having OCD sometimes.

But I'm out of annoying questions for now. You won't have to put up with me for a while.

fornax-subscriber !hUy9FLpdsA 2010/11/02(Tue)05:43 No. 26024 ID: 4c91d5
File 128870179590.png - (52.49KB , 704x801 , hoot_hooo.png )

That last question by the Last Hraru, is she asking if we want to bring her brandy, or is she asking if we want her to repeat the synopsis?

because this is all I can think of when I see all those Y's.

:3c

No new updates. Not this weekend, and probably not for another month. My finals are coming up and my Saturdays are no longer my own. I really wanted to get one more session done before I took this break I knew was coming, but it seems to be impossible.

If I can squeeze out one more session before finals, I will, but don't count on it. On the bright side, I'll probably start updating Sammy again because it takes a lot less time.

>>336323

;_; Hrarrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuu

>>337608
Look at that wizard brushing a unicorn. How can anyone plan to kill entities who brush unicorns?

So, just to be clear after being out of the loop for a long while what excactly are we trying to accomplish?

Are we seriously trying to create a colorless grey slush of a world where everyone has slowly advancing alzheimer's or are we just starting a fight because it's so kewl and spike couldn't possibly be killed by a fuckin' fighting machine?

Wouldn't a big fight between the wizards at Marvel's place be just as fine and be cool as hell also? Wouldn't our antithesis weaponry be more applicaple in protecting those we care about if they purposefully came after us? Like say we actually would like to save Majestic, the ophians and about everybody in our gang when BlackSoul wants our souls? I GUESS I'M SAYING IF YOU WANT TO KILL A WIZARD THEN MARVELS AND BLACKSOUL ARE VERY GOOD CHOICES. What the fuck are you doing?

If there's a plan in this madness then don't take offence if I want to know it.

>>338765
>Sea of Oblivion bad
>BLACKSOUL GOOD CHOICE TO KILL
>Blacksoul only wizard who gives two shits about stopping/reverting Sea of Oblivion, even if it's into crazy at-any-cost territory

I don't think you're internally consistent there.

Radia is a much more deserving target if /quest/ have bloodlust to go hunt a wizard as some kind of short-sighted statement of "fuck you". Soulfire isn't the nicest of people either, what with the genocide. Xykix is twisted but his focus is entirely on Snaketits, who we're missing info on on why exactly there was an uprising about. Everyone else pretty much leaves their subjects alone!

>>338765

Read the threads and pay some fucking attention.

We need to get to blacksoul so that we can find out if Flare was right about him being on Marv's side. If he IS on Marv's side, we can kill him off now to prevent him from helping Marv kill the other wizards. If he ISN'T on Marv's side, he'll probably want to help stop Marv.

We're fighting the guard because we already tried talking and there is no other way past.

>>338767
Spikesby cannot climb the fortress of glass to get to Rydia. If we somehow do manage to get Flails on our side he could design an unstoppable warbeast thing since he's like the best at creating creatures if I recall right. I think he could set it to talk to even animals too, which could help Spikesby with another communicator. If everything does actually work out here we could gain a lot of advantages, maybe at the likely cost of a friend though.

Oh, okay. It wasen't clear right in the first official post that the guard was going to attack immeadetly when we weren't going to cross and would have just called him out bypassing the sentry killing entirely. And about previous threads there was a lot of kill the wizards in the last thread (I have read them) and immediate apparent hostility in this one that it was a good assumption. A very wrong one but understandable I hope.

Also the big fight I hoped to relay as a message could have been us or Marvels depending on Flails position. Tada, boss fight outside wizard castle without possible armada of fight creatures that might be in there. But it might have been a predestined fight, I don't know. Do you?

Oh, and Blacksoul becomes a good target when he threatens our life or our friends. Black goop be damned.

>>338770
>herpaderp friends
Fuck it. If /quest/ is going to be that short-sighted, just say "fuck the world" and go lurk somewhere in Morriga's territory.

>>338771

You can sacrifice the ophians if you want, everything else is Spikes. Oh, and it's not really fuck the world. Existance was just fine and dandy with the sea just there if only it would stay the fuck there. In the eyes of the mortals life was ok if somewhat made miserable by wizards. Marvels doing the fuck the world and Blacksoul wants revenge at the cost of a whole race. Everything on this side of the rim don't care and everything outside is too demented to care. Status quo is god.

Of course the balls already rolling and wizard deaths now have untold concequences but dammit, both sides are huge fuckin dicks.

If Blacksoul is the enemy it is because he is planning to murder a lot of people by tricking them into a false paradise that he will surely abandon the instant he accomplishes his goal.

He is most assuredly not helping the Progenitors, as this short discourse from ITQ-IV reveals a bit about his character that should dispel any doubts of his intent on the matter.

>>329579
>>329583
>>329584
>>329591
>>329602
>>329613

>>/quest/267594
Is it just me, or does Childless Meg totally sound like Rorschach from The Watchmen? She's totally using that voice in my head now. :(

>>338798
One of them must have a been a past life of the other. But which, I wonder?

>>/quest/267729
WHOOOOOOOOO

>>338802
It's whoo in that at least the wizard we've killed is the one who was probably the worst on the mortals of the world.

It's much less whoo that the Sea is probably now advancing, that we've reheated the war so more wizards are going to die, and "we" are still gunning to be a very active part of this.

No More Bite Quest Updates! We'll go back to our regular, Saturday schedule, probably after New Years! Thanks for playing!

>>335340
This was pretty much canon.

If only we'd taken its hot dog powers as our own. :(

BiteQuest!!Z0Mwx3ZJZj 2011/01/30(Sun)17:19 No. 30483 ID: 383006
File 129643674035.jpg - (54.23KB , 1000x700 , End.jpg )

WELL, Everything is over.

Questions/Comments/whatever. I'd like to hear what people thought and answer anything that didn't get covered.

I'm surprised and pleased that we got the Good End. But I'm a little upset that we didn't get the Best End. It's not like we had to do a 0% damage run or get all the chaos emeralds. It was RIGHT THERE.

>>340284
Ditto. Although the only thing that actually irks me about the end is Sky2.0 being carried of. The rest is quite agreeable.

>>340283
Bitequest was epic, interesting, original, well thought out and planned, everything.

And now for the first question: how would Spikesby have changed if Ul Kerrul of the Sinking Sign had gotten hold of him before Kallikissa?

>>340283
It was a damn cool setting and an good mix of sandbox yet with sufficient pressures for narrative direction.

>>340283
Are you gonna show us what all the wizards looked like before they were wizards? I seem to remember that being promised at one point. :B

>>340292
Also what Marv's face looked like under that veil before he was a meat grenade?

What was Spikesby's defined personality, at least for the rest of his life? Us giving him suggestions clouded what would actually be his personality. What he likes to do in spare time, etc. etc. The most I saw was honorable and a generally quite decent person, though rather blank.

Was there anything you really wanted to spring on us but never got to do it because we never went there or took a completely different approach from the planned one?

Also we got the good end? I'm actually suprised. With wizards being tactical nuclear warheads and everybody mashing the launch buttons like they were wired to the pleasure centers of their brain it seemed like the only way to win is not to play.

What would've happened if we had touched the machine? My money's on massive soul explosion killing Meg and Spikesby but basically saving the world anyway.

>>340283
I almost can't believe that it's over. :V

There are almost definitely things we could have done better... or worse. That's for sure.

The biggest "what-if", for me, must be: Was there a way to save the mortals from both "worlds" (wizard world and oblivion world)?

It seems like we basically (unintentionally) genocided the entire sea-of-oblivion world in order to save wizard-world. And not much really changed.

And the second most important question:
Were there baby naga-snikts? :>

Anyways, I liked how you managed to make the quest move between being funny, serious, and perverted in a very natural-feeling way. Nothing ever felt particularly forced. And the back-story... really dug it. I think it's actually a little ironic that the main plot was rather simple (greedy bastard tries to take over world / become god). The real "meat" of the story came from the interactions and relationships between different characters and the side-plots that resulted from those.

What. A. Quest.

I rarely posted suggestions, but I followed BiteQuest from is early beginnings to its beautiful, if slightly melancholic conclusion.

And boy, what a trip it was. bitequest, you shared a fantastic, mystical adeventure with us and for that I thank you.
I could say many good things about your art and your storytelling, but aboth all, your strange, unique characters stand out... I will remember them dearly! Yes, I do not mind to say I got emotionally involved with what we were able to glimpse of their lives in their magical world.

But enough of that, lest this turns into a review...

Salutations, bitequest! You did a wonderful quest.

Thanks again for everyone who enjoyed the quest. I really appreciate everyone who read it, and especially the people who suggested. I really appreciate the compliments, and I'm really glad that the quest felt organic and natural.

I think I'm strongest at writing worlds and weakest at writing characters, so if the characters were interesting and made people feel they had an emotional stake, then I consider that a big success.

I tried to tailor the style of the story to work as well as possible with the medium of a Quest, so a lot of the story design revolved around a model that would allow for a lot of change based on what happened, although a decent amount of the time, the players couldn't really figure out exactly how much their actions changed or what results their actions would have on the world.

A lot of things changed completely from my original timeline in ways that I'd never predicted. My list of endings was modified constantly. I'm really glad that you guys were entertained by my weird, silly, gross quest. Thanks.

Now I'll answer some of the questions.


>>Progenitor Choice

Basically, Ul Kerul was all on board for Marvels's plan. He would have spun Marvels like a mofo as far as being an awesome guy and having this great plan to fix everything instead of Kallikissas "uh, yeah. Go kill some Wizards or something."

He also would have given Spikesby hands and a working digestive tract.


>>What is Spikesby like as a person?

Spikesby's personality was defined by the suggestions. He wasn't raised by Ryxix, so he didn't want to do nothing but hide in the desert and murder people.

He cared more about individual suffering than big-picture affairs and he never got the spare time to enjoy much of anything. He became a viciously loyal guy with a strong sense of morality. He felt that you do what feels right, and you don't allow needless suffering to go on. He was somewhat impulsive, but he always tried to do what he thought was best.

I think he most likes to spend his time doing very little - just relaxing, spending time outside in nature. He probably learned to read eventually, but I'd say he had little time for books or academics. He'd rather be outside enjoying life. He stayed humble and had no desire to be the center of attention, so, a quiet, honest, outdoorsy-type.

>>What would the machine have done?

Ascendant Ending, like Test Pattern thought. All of the power stored into the machine would have instantiated in Spikesby, making him an unstoppably powerful Wizard who could reshape things to his desire. Had a smaller chance for a good end, I think.

>>Stuff I planned that I didn't get to do

Not really, mostly thanks to Gnoll going to Flare's territory. I would have been a little sad if I'd never got to show off his character design, and Last Hraru.

I did screw up a couple things at the end. Radia had some trash talk with Meg that I forgot to post.

Some of the other Progenitors were kind of neat.

Uh, random, pointless Trivia: Sharkboat (the giant zombie) was the Wizard that Moriga was apprenticed under. The dude with his guts hanging out and the armor was the dude that made the Hraru. The last one was part of Radia's trash talk with Meg, but I forgot to include it when I was doing the chapter.

>>Other Endings

There were a lot of other potential endings, but the huge list narrowed down continually as the quest advanced. It was possible to murder off some of the Wizards (like both Marvels and Blacksoul) and so the machine remains hidden and both the Sea and Wizards remain, but that's kind of the worst ending to me. Shitworld stays.

There was no way to have magic begin to return to the world and also have the Sea not recede.

The Wall breaks if too many points worth of Wizards die, but you can murder a whole lot of them and still have it hold.

>>Who was Glory an Adept of? Who were the Wizards before they were Wizards?

I think these things can be figured out. I'd be interested to see what people guess. Some of them are kinda easy, and some of them are fairly hard.

You know Flare was the only Hraru to Ascend, so the rest were either Ravians, Gour, or Golden (no Ophians either - they came later). After a few people guess, I'll post the answers.

Glory, I think, is pretty easy to figure out. Some of the Wizards are really easy to eliminate (Meg [always takes reproductive capability] and Flare [all his Adepts look like "dragony"]), and Moriga can't make Adepts. Her Self-Confidence was what she lost.

God, this ended up long. Sorry. ;-;

I got another question. How does it feel now that the quest is over and do you have plans for any other ones?

WHAT WILL YOU CALL YOURSELF NOW THAT BITE QUEST HAD ENDED!?

>>340328
>Glory; her Self-Confidence was what she lost
- Meg/Flare/Moriga already out.
- Don't remember any adepts of Flails, and doesn't seem he'd be interested unless they're going to offer an interesting fuck or fight with him
- Blacksoul takes things that cause strife in adepts' life, so quite plausible
- Ryxix seems too out-and-out angry for anything so subtle
- Kshaara didn't recognise Glory as one of her own, for what little that's worth
- Radia doesn't allow people to cover their face, which is exactly what Glory does
- Marvels/Soulfire/Sorrows: no idea, really, except the latter two like neat order.

So, weak guess at Blacksoul.

Blacksoul also takes things that are specifically useful to his alchemy, though. Self-confidence is possible, but doesn't quite seem to mesh with the other things he takes.

I'd call it as Queen of Sorrows, myself. You covered everyone else, I don't THINK it was Blacksoul (though I think he'd still be my #2 guess), it doesn't seem like the sort of thing marv would do while trying to maintain his 'nice guy' facade to the mortals, and it CAN'T be soulfire because Glory got transmutation powers out of the whole deal and he's fucking awful at it.

>>340338

Also Queen of Sorrows loves her order and 'a place for everything and everything in its place.' An adept with no self-confidence would be far more likely to stay in its place.

BIG LIST O' QUESTIONS:

How would the story have most likely changed/ended if things went on autopilot? If there had been no Spikesby?

What was K'Shaara doing all that time between the intermission and suddenly ZOMG! HUBBY IS DEAD!

Can you briefly summarize what happened to the other wizards that were not specifically mentioned in the end?
Especially K'shaara and the Ophians, how she felt about Ryxix's death, etc. And what happened with Suri?

Why did Lord of Marvels attack K'Shaara anyway? Seems like that was his first mistake.

What would have happened if Marv succeeded? He seemed to think he was doing the right thing, calling the other wizards villains and such. And on that note, what were his real motives? Was he really just power mad, or did he think he was doing the right thing?

What would have likely happened if Sky had went in and spoken with Marvels? And why was he all cryptic instead of lying like a smooth operator?

Would Blacksoul's "grand reaping" plan have worked? I can't quite tell, but by the way he described Marv's machine and how magic works with the world it seems like it would've been a temporary patch at best, totally ineffective at worst.

I'm guessing Glory's wizard was either Marv and she was a sleeper agent or something, or she belonged to Sorrows. In any case, why can't she remember?

What became of Last Hraru?

What if spikesby had chugged of that progenitor blood? Or consumed some of Marvels' meaty shrapnel?

How did you decide which characters would be playable each chapter?

Oh, I think I can field some of these!

>Why did Lord of Marvels attack K'Shaara anyway?

Opportunistic target. Either he was testing the antithesis ore out or trying to start the war then, but stopped when he realized that A: The antithesis ore didn't actually -kill- wizards and B: Ophian army + K'shaara blood would really help his plan.

>Was he really just power mad, or did he think he was doing the right thing?

Given that everything he said in the entire quest that we actually got ANY confirmation on ended up being a lie, it's a safe bet he was also lying about having the interests of the mortals in mind.

>And why was he all cryptic instead of lying like a smooth operator?

He DID lie. You silly person.

>I can't quite tell, but by the way he described Marv's machine and how magic works with the world it seems like it would've been a temporary patch at best,

Odds are this. There's no reason to doubt that it would have obliterated everything in the sea like Blacksoul thought it would, but with what we know now about the antithesis/magic relationship it probably wouldn't have actually removed the sea and more progenitors would simply come into being eventually.

>What became of Last Hraru?

Well, Spikesby DID go to live at flare's old place. Last Hraru probably lived there with him because they were friends.

>>340364
While your input is appreciated, I'll wait for a 100%, Word-of-God infallibly accurate answer from Tha Bawss before making up my mind.

>You silly person.
You're damn right I'm silly. The Intarnets is serious business. Far too serious to be taken seriously.

>>340371

Hey, hey you.

Holizen didn't get an ending.

=<

>>340372

Blacksoul managed to keep her from dieing, but she was horribly maimed and sickly by the awful, cursed infections for the rest of her life.

>>So, weak guess at Blacksoul.

Correct. bf1e7e is right about it not being Marvels or Soulfire. It could have been Sorrows, but it's basically a crippling disadvantage that makes the Adept mostly useless. Blacksoul was really the only one who actively screwed over his Adepts like that.


>>How would the story have most likely changed/ended if things went on autopilot? If there had been no Spikesby?

Well, in a true autopilot with no input whatsoever, nothing changes. The system maintains an equilibrium like it is. Hopefully a Wizard finds the Soul Armor stuff, otherwise Oblivion Ending or Marvels ending.

>>What was K'Shaara doing all that time between the intermission and suddenly ZOMG! HUBBY IS DEAD!

Getting her stuff together to kill Lord of Marvels. Basically waiting for a good opportunity to strike and making sure that her intel on what everyone else was doing was accurate. She was trying not to draw any attention to herself because she didn't want to get in trouble for violating another Wizard's territory, so she was mostly laying low and gathering forces.

>>Can you briefly summarize what happened to the other wizards that were not specifically mentioned in the end?
>>Especially K'shaara and the Ophians, how she felt about Ryxix's death, etc. And what happened with Suri?

K'shaara regretted Ryxix's death, but blamed herself instead of Blacksoul (as indicated in the Glory denouement). She destroyed her newer Magical Creatures and was on board for working with Blacksoul to rebuild what they could of the pre War political structure. After Glory Ascended, she apprenticed under K'shaara, probably somewhat out of spite. She advanced very quickly and the Ryxix tower within sight of Suri, probably also out of spite. As Glory grew older, she mostly forgot what had happened and became cold and calculating like old K'shaara until the Heartsbane denouement.

K'shaara always struggled between her calculating, powerhungry nature, and what she saw as the just deserts she received from giving in to it. She martyred herself (not literally) by rebuilding Suri and remaining there and working directly with refugees/the restoration efforts, but she probably still ate people when she could get away with it.

Queen of Sorrows had to dismantle her territory completely. She apprenticed Wizards just like everyone else.

Childless Meg and Blacksoul worked together to sort of try to un mess her up. They failed. She got some small measure of horrid transmutation and some awful, cursed thaumaturgy, but it only decreased the radius of the terrible poison she leaked. She was a giant liability to every living thing, so she snuck away into the Wasteland before anyone could decide it would be easier to just off her. Some Ascendant Wizards would feel compelled to journey into the wasteland to go apprentice under her and learn how to make themselves into cursed witches.

>>Why did Lord of Marvels attack K'Shaara anyway? Seems like that was his first mistake.

He had no idea what the spears he made would do to other Wizards. Moriga would have been an easy target, but she was so weak that it might not generate good data. He also knew what K'shaara had been up to, and if the Spears had killed her, thought he could collect them again. If somebody found out, he could say that he found out about her transgressions and she was gunning for him. Once he realized she had to stay pincusioned, it made things tricky but not impossible. People probably wouldn't find out. Hopefully Ryxix would start killing other Wizards. Marvel's plan required that the remaining Wizards started fighting and dieing again. There would always be significant risk with any such plan.

>>What would have happened if Marv succeeded? He seemed to think he was doing the right thing, calling the other wizards villains and such. And on that note, what were his real motives? Was he really just power mad, or did he think he was doing the right thing?

Basically what Blacksoul said. No new Wizards would ever be created, and he would have almost unlimited power. He hated being bossed around and thought the pre-War Wizards that were in control were resistant to change and unnecessarily restrictive in the use of magic. He thought he could make the world a better place, but he was basically not all that stand up of a guy.

>>What would have likely happened if Sky had went in and spoken with Marvels? And why was he all cryptic instead of lying like a smooth operator?

He was cryptic because he couldn't tell the future and was therefore more likely to be right with vague predictions based off of good intel. He built an aura of power and mystique around himself to make him look very strong and also benevolent. Trying to convince someone implies that you are not in a position of power over them - they have some leverage to bargain. He was slick and smooth with the other Wizards though, although Blacksoul was suspicious and Moriga totally didn't buy it at all.

Also, he lied about basically everything to everybody. I'll have to double check to make sure I didn't slip up, but I'm pretty sure he never said anything that was true.

If Sky went in, he couldn't have let her leave. She would have told Blacksoul on him.

>>Would Blacksoul's "grand reaping" plan have worked? I can't quite tell, but by the way he described Marv's machine and how magic works with the world it seems like it would've been a temporary patch at best, totally ineffective at worst.

A patch. It would have killed everything in the Sea, destroyed the Wall, and then Antithesis would have begun spilling everywhere and Progenitors and Windborne showing up all over the place. Bad End.

>>I'm guessing Glory's wizard was either Marv and she was a sleeper agent or something, or she belonged to Sorrows. In any case, why can't she remember?

She can't remember because Golden were given to a Wizard as children. They grow up as Adepts, which is one of the reasons (along with the mask) that they are so strong. Most of them have no idea who they were apprenticed to.


>>What became of Last Hraru?

She lived very near Spikesby and Ria and was their buddy and stuff. She dealt with a lot of the people that would pilgrimage to visit him. She became mortal and died eventually, but outlived both Spikesby and Ria.

>>What if spikesby had chugged of that progenitor blood? Or consumed some of Marvels' meaty shrapnel?

Nothing bad or good.

>>How did you decide which characters would be playable each chapter?

Most of the time it was when I would need input on one matter because it would affect what Spikesby was doing next, or, towards the end, whether or not a character was going to survive the Endgame. I tried to keep things chronological, although Ryxix dies significantly earlier than the chapter before Glory's. I tried to make sure there was player input whenever possible for almost every major event. Often times, I would have to use the other characters to accomplish this. Once the players split the party up, this became really easy and useful.

>>340329

Well, it was a long Quest and I'm pretty satisfied overall, although I am a little sad that it's over.

I'm currently running Sammy's Adventure and I'm going to resurrect Lahamu as well.

As far as something colorful and long, [hurr hurr] we'll see.

>>340331

Do I really have to change my name?

>>340392
Yes we are forcing you it's unanimous.

What's wrong with your FA name?

BIG LIST O' QUESTIONS, THE SEQUEL:

Spikesby's statue would seem to indicate he's regarded as something of a hero. Would you expand on that a bit?

What would super wizard [i]demigod[/s] Spikesby have been like? What did you mean by "Had a smaller chance for a good end?"

What would his powers be? New name? Would he be evil, self serving, or good? What would be the first few things he did with that power? Would he remember anything from his past life?

Were there any events or decisions you wish had been handled differently?

Was there a worst possible ending in which both the Sea of Oblivion and the "Dreaming" Peninsula were totally destroyed?

Why doesn't the Sea of Oblivion like water? Why didn't the wizards capitalize on this by separating a small land mass and living on islands in total safety?

Where does the Oblivion even come from? Space? Center of the Earth? Or does it just automagically spring into existence in the absence of magic?

What were the wizards' powers you didn't get to showcase? Marv, Moriga, Sorrows, K'shaara, and Ryxix either didn't show their powers or seemed pretty small potatoes compared to the others (although I know Moriga was supposed to be). So what were their magics like, combat and otherwise?

>Some of the Progenitors were kind of neat.
Well, don't let that creativity go waste, then. Tell us about them.

>Radia's trash talk with Meg.
Now's your chance! Let's hear it!

Was it even remotely possible for glory to help Ryxix? What probably would've happened if she'd have tried? What if, via the power of handwavium, she had suceeded?

What became Marv's hat?

... sequel?

I second the idea of a sequel, or maybe even a spin-off. I loved this universe.

>>340512
>What would demigod Spikesby have been like?

Personally, I would have imagined him to be noble, humble and upstanding. His character was very brave and selfless for the most part. The only time I really felt he seemed even remotely evil is when he lied to Flails, but honestly I'd say it was a case of the ends justifying the means. Well, that and Flails is a dick.

As much effort as he put into saving the world, I'd imagine he'd at least try to preserve the sanctity of it.

BIG LIST O' QUESTIONS, THE SEQUEL:

>>Spikesby's statue would seem to indicate he's regarded as something of a hero. Would you expand on that a bit?

He did save the world.

>>What would super wizard demigod[/s] Spikesby have been like? What did you mean by "Had a smaller chance for a good end?"

>>What would his powers be? New name? Would he be evil, self serving, or good? What would be the first few things he did with that power? Would he remember anything from his past life?

This would have all been decided by the suggesters. Instead of Blacksoul bein like "wut boon you want?" it would have been something like [i]"Spikesby feels overwhelmed with vast power! Nothing can stand in his way! He in an invulnerable power - the other Wizards are like children to him! How does he reshape the world?

It's pretty easy to fuck that up.

>>Were there any events or decisions you wish had been handled differently?

Other than those few dialogue omissions I mentioned earlier, not really. I would have liked a little more Heartsbane and a little more development for Ria and Isenore.

>>Was there a worst possible ending in which both the Sea of Oblivion and the "Dreaming" Peninsula were totally destroyed?

It's really only one or the other.

>>Why doesn't the Sea of Oblivion like water? Why didn't the wizards capitalize on this by separating a small land mass and living on islands in total safety?

The Antithesis appeared wherever Wizards should be making magic. Moriga was fine because she is so smalltime.

>>Where does the Oblivion even come from? Space? Center of the Earth? Or does it just automagically spring into existence in the absence of magic?

That last one. It's Blacksoul's kind of shitty metaphor. The absence of magic filling space where it belonged created negative pressure, and eventually some other force poured through the eventual tears.

>>What were the wizards' powers you didn't get to showcase? Marv, Moriga, Sorrows, K'shaara, and Ryxix either didn't show their powers or seemed pretty small potatoes compared to the others (although I know Moriga was supposed to be). So what were their magics like, combat and otherwise?

Marvels actually did showcase his. He was casting an illusion over everything, so Meg couldn't see him or his machine. In his chapter, the description of the tower was stars with floating sigils - all illusions. Marvels was pretty smalltime though. Spikesby saw through it because 'resistant to mentalism'

K'shaara used mentalism to make people obsessed with her.

Ryxix was a pretty good transmuter, but was mostly huge and terrible.

Sorrows was noncorporeal and mostly a thaumaturgist.

>Some of the Progenitors were kind of neat.
Well, don't let that creativity go waste, then. Tell us about them.

meh.

>Radia's trash talk with Meg.
Now's your chance! Let's hear it!

meh.

>>Was it even remotely possible for glory to help Ryxix? What probably would've happened if she'd have tried? What if, via the power of handwavium, she had suceeded?

It would have been possible. It would have been difficult - I didn't think of anything in particular that could have worked, but I never foreclosed on the possibility.

>>What became Marv's hat?

Spikesby kept it.

>>... sequel?

No, I think this is the story I should have told with the setting, and I don't really intend to revisit it right now. I am working on something else atm, and maybe after I finish the new project, I might come back to the setting. If I do, it will not be with the original cast (it will be after all of the mortals have died).

>>340762
>I think this is the story I should have told with the setting, and I don't really intend to revisit it right now.
Sounds reasonable. It was a pretty weird and interesting place to explore and I think the familiarity of a second pass would ruin that.