I support the swarm of tiny swarm of tiny creatures. Would they have telepathy for the hive-mind thing?

Welp, seems like we are reaching a final form.

So far it is looking like:
Insert specifications
A Cat and Swarms of tiny hivemind telepathic/psionic beings.

The Cat is a bipedal/quadruped hybrid, with at least one pair of dedicated manipulators(hands).

It's size should be the most common size present in the empire.

Wisp-Swarms are insects, and capable of symbiosis with the cats.
I believe many details can be left to you ISLHC

Note: Form of the insect symbiont is still not fully decided.
Calling Motion to begin altering a native feline species while the specifics of the insects are processed.

>>308865
There are problems with the insect swarm idea. They would have to burrow into the host, and would need to be periodically replenished when they died due to the inevitable short lifespan of small insects.
And if they are too small they would have fairly limited effect on the hosts metabolism, except in very high numbers. They'd be more parasite than symbiont.

With a singular, decentralized symbiont that develops as the host grows, it would have a much greater benefit to the host and the symbiont. Merged immune systems, direct connection to the brain,
it could even act as a secondary musculature and nervous system.

And what do you mean by dedicated manipulators? What i had in mind was four limbs with the fore-limbs being able to work as both hand and foot, and the hind-limbs being able to support the being both standing bipedally and quadrupedally.

>>308865
I agree with all this. One other thing to be considered is the structure of the hive-mind itself. Is the hive-mind absolute, with each cat and swarm pairs minds being completely dedicated to it, of do they retain their individuality, with the hive-mind serving as a sort of biological internet.

>>308889
>There are problems with the insect swarm idea. They would have to burrow into the host, and would need to be periodically replenished when they died due to the inevitable short lifespan of small insects.

Aging is a genetic function. While wear to the body is natural, most of the damage is caused by aging. We simply need to strengthen the insects bodies and alter their genetically inbuilt life-span. The insects would replenish their numbers while with the cat. Burrowing into the cats body could take place at points on the cat designed for this.

>And if they are too small they would have fairly limited effect on the hosts metabolism, except in very high numbers. They'd be more parasite than symbiont.

A parasite offers little or no benefits. This is not the case with the swarms. And I think you have underestimated the effectiveness of large numbers of small insects working together. It would be hard for a singular symbiont to provide the same benefits as them.

>With a singular, decentralized symbiont that develops as the host grows, it would have a much greater benefit to the host and the symbiote. Merged immune systems, direct connection to the brain,
it could even act as a secondary musculature and nervous system.

None of this is required. What is the benefit of a direct connection to the brain? This just leaves the brain vulnerable to damage or infection. Not only that, but for things like 'merged immune systems' to be of any real use, the symbiote would have to be rather large.

I think the cats have individuality while the bugs form a hive-mind the cats can tap into. That was the plan right?

like i said it would be like a bike helemt sized and just become a extra skull for the cat. cat would evolve a hole in the skull with thin skin and no nerves and the bug would socket into it. would reproduce at the same time as the cats and the child of the bug would interface with the cat child. socket would be kinda like the plugs in the matrix. except stem connect from the bug grows with the host brain. they are not only family but first friends. bug would obviously atrophy with evolution that it cannot live alone at all. due to body becoming more adapted to the role of rider while also gaining those Psionic powers.

>A parasite offers little or no benefits. This is not the case with the swarms. And I think you have underestimated the effectiveness of large numbers of small insects working together.
>It would be hard for a singular symbiont to provide the same benefits as them.

Perhaps, but there are also benefits that a single organism can provide that many smaller ones cannot, such as extracting and routing toxins out through its own body, rather than letting it sit in the hosts.

>None of this is required.

Do we even need a symbiont at all then? The point is, it would improve their survival rate.

>What is the benefit of a direct connection to the brain? This just leaves the brain vulnerable to damage or infection.

A direct connection would eliminate any 'psionic interference' that could occur, and commune with their symbiont clearly.

>Not only that, but for things like 'merged immune systems' to be of any real use, the symbiote would have to be rather large.

Not necessarily, i did say 'decentralized', which means it would be spread throughout the body.

But if the insects were to have a hive-mind capability that the cat would be able to access any time, wouldn't we need a being to "anchor" all the knowledge? They can't continuously transmit info all the time so that it'll be kept "alive". I'm thinking about using bees, with the Queen being both the creator, and the encyclopedia which all the workers and soldiers have access to, and can add or change any time.

tl;dr: We use bees, with the Queen taking the roles of both laying eggs, and a live Wikipedia.

Or alternatively, we could "anchor" it to the Secondary Heuristic Core (To report what was learned, and how to add it into the database), the Low Level Heuristic Core (for additional check, and to pass data) and the Slow Memory (the Encyclopedia)

>>308904

>Do we even need a symbiont at all then? The point is, it would improve their survival rate.

The point is you want to combine a large creature with a smaller symbiotic creature. This means there bringing similar stregths to the table, such as immune systems and nervious systems. But we dont need to make the host-cat stronger my this manner; we can simply alter its evolution to include a secondery nervous system or toxin resistance. However, there are things that are certain traits that are harder to give to a large creature.

Basically the bugs provide a way for the cat to exert a more focused, adaptive and direct influence over their body. For example if a cat was shot it would be hard to give the body an effective means of dealing with this but the bugs would be capable of pushing the bullet from the body, inspecting the damage and giving a detailed report of it, cleaning the injury and speeding up healing.

All in all, I prefer the swarm approach.

>>308894
>>308889
How about a sort-of compromise?
Here's what I'm thinking: Each feline carries with it a small group (around a dozen) of relatively small (~1 inch) insectoids. (What form of insect do we want anyway? Grub, beetle, centipede, lepidopter...?) These are normally carried in a cavity under the feline's skull, which can be accessed by two openings on the side of the head which appear similar to ears. Each insectoid has enough cognitive power to have an individual name and personality, but they must work in tandem to think hard about something.
The insectoids can theoretically live without a host, but are very likely to die to external hazards. In addition, they form a strong emotional bond with their host, so if the host dies, they will likely lose the will to live. The insectoids do not seem to age, or at least have a very long natural life span, so it is extremely rare for one to die except by external trauma.
Insectoids can interface with other hosts and can even transfer hosts. Since they can carry memories, temporary transfers are a valid form of evidence in court. However, in other situations transfers are usually an intimate gesture, therefore this is viewed on somewhat the same level as a strip-search. A permanent trade of insectoids is a close analogue to marriage.
There are some (very rare) cases of individual insectoids making enough transfers to become recognized as individuals, but in most cases they are viewed in most respects as part of their hosts. Immediate family and close friends will usually learn each others' insectoids' names and to some extent how they act, but tend not to become very familiar with them.

Okay, I think that was all I got. Whatcha think?

I think we have a winner.

>>308923
Marriage? Laws? There's nothing even close to what we can call "civilization" in this planet...we don't even know if the cat can form these concepts, even with the insect's help. The end result will be something like modern civilization, but with cats and bugs instead of humans.

>>308916
>>308923
Convincing arguments, insects it is.

Also lets have them able to make semi-permanent tunnels through most of the body, so they have easy internal access to make repairs and do other things. sort of like a living, sapient land-ship for them.

>>308923
I like it but does it still include the hive-mind ability? Or is the only means of transfer and communication the swapping of bugs?

so like that one guy from naruto with the bugs in him?

species 21,981 modified to be more sociable.

To what extent is it possible to modify the form and behavior of any of these candidate species via probability manipulation field before they reach sapience?

>>308929
Oh right. I was intending that they still have psionic abilities, and so can easily and quickly contact others, but do not form a hive-mind proper except with those sharing their host (well, and the host themself). Basically the psionic contact is language, where a temporary transfer is like mind-reading.

Of course just because I came up with the idea doesn't mean I have to have the final word! If you have a variant that you like, by all means suggest it.



>>308955
Are these all quadrupedal and four-limbed?
Honestly they all sound pretty good. 17125's thick skull will help protect the insects, though we'll have to do something about that charging behaviour. 13857 also has protective bone, and apparently already is using its forelimbs as graspers. 21981 has a social structure that I like, and gliding is always a nice skill.
I'm leaning most toward 17125, I think, but any one is acceptable in my book.

Gentlemen, we can combine them. We have the technology. We have the capability to build this world's finest gliding, skull plated hunter-gatherer. These three will be that creature. Better than they were before. Better, stronger, faster.

Aww, no cats?
Voting for Species 13, 857. We can change that "lone wolf" trait with the insect's help. See if you can use the probability manipulation field to make it have claws, change that rose colour into something darker and enchanced night vision and jaws. It should have no problems escaping predators, since it's muscles are suited for quick, fast bursts, and with claws, it could help in climbing trees.

>>308979
Hmm how about the bugs are born from queen bugs, which are large and stationery. The cats (or whatever they are now) feed and care for these queens. The queens have perfect memory, and a massive lifespan. They can store huge amounts of knowledge and have a psionic connection with all of their children and the other queens, forming a large psionic network. The cats generally gather around these queens, forming communities, and each cat will generally come to see the queen their bugs came from as a second mother. It's not so much a hive-mind in full, it's more like the queens and their children have a hive-mind and the cats and other queens can tap into this.

Mix of all three, alter to be feline.

Request: specifics on the insect speices nearby the three spieces to be merged.

>>309044
Oh, and I vote for 17,125 with the modification of making them omnivorous for adaptibility.

How about 17,125's reinforced skull, 13,857's bone plates, a mix between 17125's and 21,981's social structure, make it more cat-like, make it omnivorous, add whatever internal structures the insects would need, and maybe throw in 21,981's club tail.

This would make the cats very durable, which would make them very good at keeping their insect friends alive.

>>309060
So just to make sure i'v got this right:
They form largish herds or packs within which they form family groups.
It has facial features and short fur like that of a feline.
It has a cavity within the skull and passages through the body for bugs.
A prehensile clubed tail.
Sub-durmal bone plating.
Hard skull plating.
Omnivorous.

I would agree with all this, with the addition of clawed hind legs, the ability to move bipedally and quadrupedally, opposable digits on fore legs for tool use and climbing.

Sounds good.

>>309063
Something like that, yes.

Request: Search for insect spieces which would be able to go through the outlined candidate, Serach for many small insects and few larger insects, only ones. All insects must be have hivemind cabablity. Psionic/hivemind cadidates are more prefered.

There has also been suggestion of a hive of small insects and a Large queen.

How about the Queen lives in the skull cavity, the Queen's spawn live throughout the body?

>>309072
sure that sounds like the best combination. The queen has a psionic connection to other queens and perfect memory. She produces small bugs that travel through the body via the blood stream.

Anyone have any ideas on how the queens are given to the cats? Should the cats be born with them, or should they recieve them at a later point in their life, and if so, how?

>>309063
That works great.

>>309091
How about they're born without and are ready to receive a queen just after they reach maturity. The queen itself being hatched within an adult, usually one of the parents of the one to receive the new queen, and reaching maturity in just under one planetary year.

>>309063
Don't you think that's a too much weight for the cat? Downvoting the club tail idea, we've got a reinforced skeleton (especially the SPINE, since it can move around bipedally too), armor, and strong hind legs. Looks like our problem here are how the insects are going to live inside it's body...I suggest the Queen (small)starting out near the brain, good location for linking psionic abilites(telepathy, see through the cat's eyes), with the workers (nano-sized, or something close) traveling through the blood stream, and are capable of injecting substances into certain organs or muscles to enhance their function temporarily, repair broken bones, add protective layers to organs, aside from their "basic" jobs (taking care of the queen, young, etc). The soldiers are outside the hive (cat), and follow the cat where it goes, and helps in capturing prey (venom) or defending, and the Queen is capable of issuing orders with telepathy. The workers can leave the hive through hair follicles to find food. Soldiers are mostly inside, though some of them are on "guard" duty, hiding in the fur or flying beside the cat. They switch shifts when hungry. So basically the cat can seemingly "summon" a cloud of tiny insects when provoked from nowhere.

Now that makes the insects dependent on the cat for survival...so drones aren't very much. The eggs are stored in a special organ in the cat, linked directly to the stomach (Need to work on this part). As for new Queens...I still dunno.

>>309113
Yeah that works. Lets say that the queen is born from one of the parents queens. To begin with it could be small and mobile (probably capable of flight). It could then spend some time with the cat it was supposed to join with, allowing them to become familier before the queen joins with the cat and losses her mobility.

Clubtails are pointless in a dense forest. And why would they need so much armor, if they're already mobile and equipped with all the other weapons we want tacked on? I suggest we scrap the club and armor, roll with increased mobility and better bones. And I swear to god, we had better NOT end up with Na'vi, as this feline trend seems to be going...

>>309128
Who said they're going to live in a forest? I dont care about the tail having a club, but I don't like the idea of no bone plating. We're not making them that much slower; we can increase their muscle density to compensate. We're just making them heavier, which doesn't really matter since they're not swimming around or anything. I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Also Na'vi? No, not at all. Ever. :V

At the very least the bone plating and reinforced skull should stay. It would help the cats protect the insects better. And where was it said that they would be living in a dense forest?

also the armor is the better bones. The bone plates are under the skin.

Insect #1. They can communicate with the host, and given a bit of time or via probability manipulation field, can develop defenses for themselves and the cat.

insect #1 modified to able to release chemicals in the hosts body that would promote healing, block pain, and things of that nature.

#3. Definitely 3. After all, it worked out so well for [speciesname] and [civilizationname], I think we should give it a go.